GOA: Comprehensive Immigration Reform Would be the End of the Ballot Box

[AuH20]

If Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner, then this comprehensive immigration plan is an importation of more wolves. :( The TPTB are desperately in need of a defining consensus for their new age and if they have to import the entire 3rd world, they will do so.

http://gunowners.org/alert1242013.htm


Immigration reform will add over 8,000,000 anti-gun voters to the voting rolls. There may be as many as 11.5 million persons illegally in the United States. And, a Pew poll from last year indicated that if illegal immigrants were given citizenship, they would vote for liberal, anti-gun candidates by an 8-to-1 margin.

This is exactly what happened to California -- which was once a Red State. Because of the Simpson-Mazzoli amnesty bill of 1986, the state lurched violently to the left and now can’t pass gun control restrictions fast enough.

If this were to happen at the national level, we would lose the ability to stop massive gun bans and gun registration schemes. And all of this occurs at a time when a Fox poll shows the American people oppose Obama’s immigration policies by a margin of 36% to 54%.

The first reality is this: If the House passes ANYTHING, the Senate will tack on its amnesty bill and send it to conference. And the national conversation will turn off of ObamaCare and onto immigration.

[Anti Federalist]

I know this is an unpopular opinion around here, but GOA is exactly right.

Unfettered immigration, coupled with "democracy", and these idiots will vote themselves right into slavery.

[belian78]

I know this is an unpopular opinion around here, but GOA is exactly right.

Unfettered immigration, coupled with "democracy", and these idiots will vote themselves right into slavery.
And here's one for the all time irony championship of the world, Mexico is actually legalizing vigilante groups (read: militias) one of which has already captured a number of high ranking cartel members.

[AuH20]

I know this is an unpopular opinion around here, but GOA is exactly right.

Unfettered immigration, coupled with "democracy", and these idiots will vote themselves right into slavery.

No one can read the fine print any longer, never mind those escaping lowgrade socioeconomic conditions. They'll gladly take the noose and place it around their own necks for paltry, short-term gain.

http://chuckslowe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Read.jpg

[Anti Federalist]

And here's one for the all time irony championship of the world, Mexico is actually legalizing vigilante groups (read: militias) one of which has already captured a number of high ranking cartel members.

I've been watching that closely, good for them.

[AuH20]

And here's one for the all time irony championship of the world, Mexico is actually legalizing vigilante groups (read: militias) one of which has already captured a number of high ranking cartel members.

after the drug cartels started raping and mutilating their wives and daughters. That catalyzed this response. And the Mexican government is actually trying to disarm many of these groups since they are compromised with cartel money anyway.

[otherone]

I know this is an unpopular opinion around here, but GOA is exactly right.

Unfettered immigration, coupled with "democracy", and these idiots will vote themselves right into slavery.

LITERALLY. The PIC needs more chattel.

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/img/831c/RBGStreetScholar/2947l.jpg

[belian78]

after the drug cartels started raping and mutilating wives and daughters. That catalyzed this response. And the Mexican government is actually trying to disarm many of these groups since they are compromised with cartel money anyway.
Well sure, the fed gov will always try to protect it's self, but local govs that have to look citizens in the face on the daily are finally starting to do what they need to do to help themselves, fed gov be damned.

[AuH20]

Well sure, the fed gov will always try to protect it's self, but local govs that have to look citizens in the face on the daily are finally starting to do what they need to do to help themselves, fed gov be damned.

Well, that's really the only hope for any of us. Despite how dumbed down the population has become, there still remains that fight or flight response hardwired within all of us. Underneath all the layers of conditioning, there is still an element of survival based unpredictability that can thwart the plans of the puppetmasters.

[belian78]

Well, that's really the only hope for any of us. Despite how dumbed down the population has become, there still remains that fight or flight response hardwired within all of us.
Yup. Look at Chicago, that place is right there. The folks that are still there are finally waking up to reality and speaking up against those that they used to rally around, I only hope they continue to do so.

[The Free Hornet]

I would recommend relaxing the laws on immigrants and gun ownership (http://www.vrolyk.org/guns/alien-laws.html) (court ruling (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/08/us-usa-immigrants-guns-idUSBRE8471BP20120508)).

I'm assuming someone who owns a gun (without being criminalized for the act) will be pro 2nd and someone who is forbidden or strongly incentivized not to, is less likely to support the 2nd.

Here was an interesting article:


Guizar had been an illegal alien since arriving in Wyoming as a toddler some 25 years ago. And he possessed firearms: a rifle, a pistol and a shotgun. Guizar was guilty and faced deportation.

http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/opinion/simmoms-gun-rights-vs-illegal-immigrants/article_ef2ece31-6024-5226-8736-bc9833763794.html

Does the GOA have a position statement on that? FWIW, I appreciate the distinction of not allowing millions of non-citizens to form an army within our borders.

[brushfire]

I know this is an unpopular opinion around here, but GOA is exactly right.

Unfettered immigration, coupled with "democracy", and these idiots will vote themselves right into slavery.
?
Love me some GOA - GOA rocks! Who disagrees? Why disagree?

Oh, wait, you're talking about open borders? Yup, open borders cannot work in a welfare state. The 2 simply cannot coexist. Are people still in opposition to that fact?

[erowe1]

Pratt may be right here.

But then when he turns around and says that he supports the government prohibiting gun ownership for these same people that he won't support giving citizenship to, it shows that his real agenda is an anti-immigration one, and not a pro-RTKBA one.

ETA:
I'm sure there's more out there on this point, but here's the first example I came across.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/06/new-aclu-lawsuit-expand-south-dakota-gun-rights/

But Gun Owners of America Executive Director Larry Pratt says the state has every right to restrict conceal and carry permits to citizens.

"If the guy wants to enjoy the full benefit of residing in the United States become a citizen. He’s been here for 30 years what’s he waiting for?," Pratt told FoxNews.com.

Pratt says the only reason the ACLU brought the suit is to pave the way for illegal aliens to have conceal carry permits.

"They want to make it so illegal aliens have the same rights as everybody else...every little bit chipping away," he said.

[The Free Hornet]

?
Love me some GOA - GOA rocks! Who disagrees? Why disagree?

Oh, wait, you're talking about open borders? Yup, open borders cannot work in a welfare state. The 2 simply cannot coexist. Are people still in opposition to that fact?

If I oppose the welfare state, that should suffice.

As for GAO, [point retracted - see Sluggo below].

Edit: I'm not so much "open border" necessarily. I would like to see common sense. The absurdity is that an undocumented can be arrested one day ($ for police), released, get schooling for self and children ($ for union), and yet it is the job creators that are demonized for this situation.

[pcosmar]

And here's one for the all time irony championship of the world, Mexico is actually legalizing vigilante groups (read: militias) one of which has already captured a number of high ranking cartel members.

Actually,, They are attacking the US Backed Cartels.. And Disarming the police,,That are protecting the US Backed Cartels.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2534496/Mexican-vigilante-gunmen-disarm-local-POLICE-rid-town-feared-Knights-Templar-drug-cartel.html
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/01/06/article-2534496-1A6F55E200000578-252_964x659.jpg

These US Backed Groups were an attempt to undermine the long established Local Families (Cartels). The Old Cartels protected the people and the people liked them.
The Old Cartels were basically Growers unions.. Land owners, Farmers and merchants.

The Los Zeta's were trained in the US School of the Americas.

These new Cartels are politically backed,, with political agendas. Knights Templar seems to have a Left wing agenda.

[belian78]

Actually,, They are attacking the US Backed Cartels.. And Disarming the police,,That are protecting the US Backed Cartels.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2534496/Mexican-vigilante-gunmen-disarm-local-POLICE-rid-town-feared-Knights-Templar-drug-cartel.html
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/01/06/article-2534496-1A6F55E200000578-252_964x659.jpg

These US Backed Groups were an attempt to undermine the long established Local Families (Cartels). The Old Cartels protected the people and the people liked them.
The Old Cartels were basically Growers unions.. Land owners, Farmers and merchants.

The Los Zeta's were trained in the US School of the Americas.

These new Cartels are politically backed,, with political agendas. Knights Templar seems to have a Left wing agenda.
OK? So what I said was still correct. Local folks are arming themselves, disarming state thugs and going after violent drug cartels.

[pcosmar]

As to this New Immigration Bill,,, that is currently being pushed..

You might want to look at this Trojan Horse before you welcome it.

This is a push for National ID (Real ID) and a Biometric Database.
NO ONE will be allowed to work without it.

[belian78]

As to this New Immigration Bill,,, that is currently being pushed..

You might want to look at this Trojan Horse before you welcome it.

This is a push for National ID (Real ID) and a Biometric Database.
NO ONE will be allowed to work without it.
Yup. You will not be able to work/buy/sell but if you have the mark of the beast.

[pcosmar]

OK? So what I said was still correct. Local folks are arming themselves, disarming state thugs and going after violent drug cartels.

Oh,, it was temporary. I applaud them too.

But the Government hit back and is disarming (or attempting to) Self Defense groups.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-25724986

[sluggo]

As for GAO, anti-Liberty founder (http://www.ontheissues.org/bill_richardson.htm#Drugs). I wouldn't trust them and it is not where I'd spend my liberty dollars.



Different dude.

HL Richardson is the founder of the GOA, not Bill.

[Anti Federalist]

?
Love me some GOA - GOA rocks! Who disagrees? Why disagree?

Oh, wait, you're talking about open borders? Yup, open borders cannot work in a welfare state. The 2 simply cannot coexist. Are people still in opposition to that fact?

Yes, the open borders position.

See, to have borders, by definition you have to have a state, and well, the argument progresses from there.

[Brian4Liberty]

This is exactly what happened to California -- which was once a Red State. Because of the Simpson-Mazzoli amnesty bill of 1986, the state lurched violently to the left and now can’t pass gun control restrictions fast enough.

With regard to immigration and the Second Amendment, it's hard to say how an individual immigrant will view it. Some will become avid gun enthusiasts, and look forward to that freedom. Some may appreciate the letter and intent of the Second Amendment. On the other hand, some will view gun bans as natural, due to their previous norm in less free societies. Some will take the simplistic, yet false narrative that gun control somehow stops criminals.

The more relevant danger to the Second Amendment is the fact that the Democrats, for a variety of reasons, will gain the majority of new voters. Even an immigrant who desires gun rights may vote for Democrats for other reasons. The power of the mainstream media does not simply go away because a person is a recent immigrant. More likely the contrary, where there will not be enough background knowledge to offset the endless propaganda and conditioning assault.

[AuH20]

With regard to immigration and the Second Amendment, it's hard to say how an individual immigrant will view it. Some will become avid gun enthusiasts, and look forward to that freedom. Some may appreciate the letter and intent of the Second Amendment. On the other hand, some will view gun bans as natural, due to their previous norm in less free societies. Some will take the simplistic, yet false narrative that gun control somehow stops criminals.

The more relevant danger to the Second Amendment is the fact that the Democrats, for a variety of reasons, will gain the majority of new voters. Even an immigrant who desires gun rights may vote for Democrats for other reasons. The power of the mainstream media does not simply go away because a person is a recent immigrant. More likely the contrary, where there will not be enough background knowledge to offset the endless propaganda and conditioning assault.

I think most immigrants who hail from south of the border would probably gravitate towards anti-gun positions due to the cartel related and inner city violence they have experienced.

[JustinTime]

With regard to immigration and the Second Amendment, it's hard to say how an individual immigrant will view it. Some will become avid gun enthusiasts, and look forward to that freedom. Some may appreciate the letter and intent of the Second Amendment.

Well just look at recent immigrants and how they vote.

[gwax23]

Ill go step further and say we should ban all movement between states...No!...even better, ban all movement between towns....No!....even better, ban all movement between blocks... No!! Even better we should ban all movement between households. That way we can protect that document thats been disregarded wayyy before any "alien" got here.

[Anti Federalist]

Ill go step further and say we should ban all movement between states...No!...even better, ban all movement between towns....No!....even better, ban all movement between blocks... No!! Even better we should ban all movement between households. That way we can protect that document thats been disregarded wayyy before any "alien" got here.

Ok, yeah, I get it.

I'm as absolutist as they come.

But unless you are prepared to somehow rescind voting "rights", a wave of unfettered immigration will result in millions of anti liberty voters restricting your rights and redistributing your wealth.

To say anything else is denying pure fact.

[Origanalist]

Ok, yeah, I get it.

I'm as absolutist as they come.

But unless you are prepared to somehow rescind voting "rights", a wave of unfettered immigration will result in millions of anti liberty voters restricting your rights and redistributing your wealth.

To say anything else is denying pure fact.

When you are driving on the right side of the road and a semi truck is coming at you going the wrong way, do you stay in your lane because you're right?

[Brian4Liberty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ATJNnhNMT4

[Origanalist]

Allow me to pose this scenario. Lets imagine that we finally got to the point where liberty lovers and statists despised each other enough that we both decided to separate peacefully. Should we then allow them to move back into our new digs?

[gwax23]

Ok, yeah, I get it.

I'm as absolutist as they come.

But unless you are prepared to somehow rescind voting "rights", a wave of unfettered immigration will result in millions of anti liberty voters restricting your rights and redistributing your wealth.

To say anything else is denying pure fact.

I agree with you and others that Democracy is the problem not the immigration. Im fine with them having no voting rights or access to other government services.

Its just the idea that these immigrants are monolithic and just waiting to vote for gun control thats so preposterous. Further we have had so many more waves of immigrants before this of greater proportions and none of the sensationalist fears ever came true.

No sadly its going to be our fellow Americans who vote for our freedoms to be rescinded. As they have been for quite some time.

I say make immigration a state issue and leave federal quotas and bans and reform out of it.

[LibForestPaul]

Ill go step further and say we should ban all movement between states...No!...even better, ban all movement between towns....No!....even better, ban all movement between blocks... No!! Even better we should ban all movement between households. That way we can protect that document thats been disregarded wayyy before any "alien" got here.
I have no problem with open borders. But if the state wants to break its constitution, then it needs to stop looking in my wallet for money.

[erowe1]

I have no problem with open borders. But if the state wants to break its constitution, then it needs to stop looking in my wallet for money.

Even if it wants to follow its constitution, it still has no right to look in your wallet for money.

[gwax23]

I have no problem with open borders. But if the state wants to break its constitution, then it needs to stop looking in my wallet for money.

Of course. Theywould be taking your wallet and your shoes and one of your socks though to pay to get rid of immigrants and prevent anymore from coming though. Its cheaper to leave them here and let them come, keeping the status quo of non citizenship till our welfare state falls apart.

[AuH20]

Allow me to pose this scenario. Lets imagine that we finally got to the point where liberty lovers and statists despised each other enough that we both decided to separate peacefully. Should we then allow them to move back into our new digs?

Can you trust them? I would fall on the side of caution considering that we are living in their handiwork.

[Origanalist]

Can you trust them? I would fall on the side of caution considering that we are living in their handiwork.

Is it possible to design a system impervious to their never ending efforts to bring in statism?

[Brian4Liberty]

Allow me to pose this scenario. Lets imagine that we finally got to the point where liberty lovers and statists despised each other enough that we both decided to separate peacefully. Should we then allow them to move back into our new digs?

What would happen would depend on immigration policy. ;)

If both nations had equal open border policy, the free nation would become more statist, the statist nation might become more free. They might reach equilibrium.

If the statist nation allowed emigration but no immigration, and the "free" nation was open border, the open border nation would probably become less free.

Then again, people are generally on bell shaped curve between totalitarian statism and pure liberty, and people can change, so there is no way this scenario could actually occur in reality.

[Origanalist]

What would happen would depend on immigration policy. ;)

If both nations had equal open border policy, the free nation would become more statist, the statist nation might become more free. They might reach equilibrium.

If the statist nation allowed emigration but no immigration, and the "free" nation was open border, the open border nation would probably become less free.

Then again, people are generally on bell shaped curve between totalitarian statism and pure liberty, and people can change, so there is no way this scenario could actually occur in reality.

I revert back to my question above. Is it possible?

[Brian4Liberty]

I revert back to my question above. Is it possible?

Best answer that I am aware of is this:


"It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt." – John Philpot Curran: Speech upon the Right of Election for Lord Mayor of Dublin, 1790. (Speeches. Dublin, 1808.) as quoted in Bartlett's Familiar Quotations

[Origanalist]

Best answer that I am aware of is this:

I myself, cannot think of a better answer than that.

[fr33]

Allow me to pose this scenario. Lets imagine that we finally got to the point where liberty lovers and statists despised each other enough that we both decided to separate peacefully. Should we then allow them to move back into our new digs?

Our new digs would be private property. If we were finally free you couldn't stop the individual property owners from selling land or allowing tenants.

[fr33]

?
Love me some GOA - GOA rocks! Who disagrees? Why disagree?

Oh, wait, you're talking about open borders? Yup, open borders cannot work in a welfare state. The 2 simply cannot coexist. Are people still in opposition to that fact?

A coercive welfare state cannot work. Period.