"Let the Fire Burn" Explores 1985 MOVE Bombing by Cops in Philadelphia

[phill4paul]

http://reason.com/reasontv/2014/01/23/jason-osder


In 1985, one of the most controversial - and catastrophic - police actions in U.S. history took place when the Philadelphia Police Department dropped a bomb from a helicopter on a fortified residence occupied by members of a group called MOVE. The subsequent fire killed six adults and five children associated with MOVE and destroyed 61 homes. Decades later, controversy and acrimony still smolder and the tragedy speaks to ongoing questions about race, class, police brutality, and more.

Let the Fire Burn, a highly praised documentary directed by George Washington University's Jason Osder, tracks the tumultuous history of MOVE, a mostly black back-to-nature group that advocated separatism and strange child-rearing techniques, and its often-violent relationship with a police department notorious for racial tensions.

Raised in the Philadelphia area, Osder was drawn to the story because of his childhood memories of the MOVE bombing but also because it raises a series of issues that are still relevant. "We tend to believe people should have a lot of freedom in the way they raise their children," he says. "But at what point if you're malnourishing your children is it society's job to come and do something about that?" MOVE members purposefully antagonized neighbors in their mixed-race neighborhood in West Philadelphia, he notes, and the police were constantly looking for reasons to crack heads as well. Let the Fire Burn daringly uses only contemporaneous footage in an attempt to "make the past present" and the result is not simply a stunning work of art but a searing, nuanced, and profoundly moving exploration of the failure of pluralism, government, and justice in the City of Brotherly Love.

Osder talked with Reason's Nick Gillespie about the complex issues at play in the MOVE bombing and how Let the Fire Burn tells a story whose tragic relevance lives on in contemporary America.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P9qHiiZewM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v5ZXAxTGHg



More info and film dates and locations: http://www.letthefireburn.com/

http://www.letthefireburn.com/LettheFireBurn_poster_large.jpg

[aGameOfThrones]

Cops are ok?

[phill4paul]

//

[69360]

Move were not good people. Doesn't excuse what the cops did, but there was no good side there. I hope nobody here is defending move. This is not like waco, where the branch davidians just wanted to be left alone. Move purposely went out and caused trouble.

[kcchiefs6465]

Move were not good people. Doesn't excuse what the cops did, but there was no good side there. I hope nobody here is defending move. This is not like waco, where the branch davidians just wanted to be left alone. Move purposely went out and caused trouble.
Police dropped a bomb, from a helicopter, onto an American home.

And the children are ultimately innocent. Not to mention the property damaged unrelated to MOVE. If the police wished to arrest a member or two, they could have, you know, done actual police work... Staked out the home, waited until the suspect was in the open, and affected an arrest. Or knocked. FFS.

MOVE was what they were. The police were and are murderers who were not so much as reprimanded for their terroristic slaughter.

No good side? SMH.

[otherone]

Police dropped a bomb, from a helicopter, onto an American home.



I'm from the area, and was in college in the area at the time. The irony was Wilson Goode was the mayor at the time who ordered the "incendiary device (bomb) be dropped. Goode was the first African-American mayor elected in the racially divided city, largely as a reaction to Mayor "hang 'em high", law-and-order Frank Rizzo. Frank was a d-bag himself, but has the honor of being the first person I ever voted for....

[Anti Federalist]

Police dropped a bomb, from a helicopter, onto an American home.

And the children are ultimately innocent. Not to mention the property damaged unrelated to MOVE. If the police wished to arrest a member or two, they could have, you know, done actual police work... Staked out the home, waited until the suspect was in the open, and affected an arrest. Or knocked. FFS.

MOVE was what they were. The police were and are murderers who were not so much as reprimanded for their terroristic slaughter.

No good side? SMH.

Had to kill those kids to save those kids.

Not like that line of reasoning has never been used before.

And because of Quislings and apologists like the poster your replied to, it happened again in Waco.

And has occurred again.

And will keep on occurring.

Because, you know, they were "bad guys".

MUH LAW AND ORDER!

[69360]

Police dropped a bomb, from a helicopter, onto an American home.

And the children are ultimately innocent. Not to mention the property damaged unrelated to MOVE. If the police wished to arrest a member or two, they could have, you know, done actual police work... Staked out the home, waited until the suspect was in the open, and affected an arrest. Or knocked. FFS.

MOVE was what they were. The police were and are murderers who were not so much as reprimanded for their terroristic slaughter.

No good side? SMH.


Had to kill those kids to save those kids.

Not like that line of reasoning has never been used before.

And because of Quislings and apologists like the poster your replied to, it happened again in Waco.

And has occurred again.

And will keep on occurring.

Because, you know, they were "bad guys".

MUH LAW AND ORDER!


I really can't believe people are defending move. What the cops did was wrong period, we don't need to argue that.

But move was on the verge of, if not terrorists. They antagonized their neighbors for years. Screamed over bullhorns all day and night, shot at them, left piles of human crap in the yard and more I don't have time or desire to list. Stake outs didn't work, they holed up in the houses for years.

I'd advise you check all the facts before you rush to defend these people, just because of the illegal actions of the cops against them.

[kcchiefs6465]

I really can't believe people are defending move. What the cops did was wrong period, we don't need to argue that.

But move was on the verge of, if not terrorists. They antagonized their neighbors for years. Screamed over bullhorns all day and night, shot at them, left piles of human crap in the yard and more I don't have time or desire to list. Stake outs didn't work, they holed up in the houses for years.

I'd advise you check all the facts before you rush to defend these people, just because of the illegal actions of the cops murdering them*.
*Them, including children.

FIFY.

Perhaps you should check your facts, or simply quit apologizing for, police murderers and thieves.

[kcchiefs6465]

And this of course ignores the fact that the supposed neighbors that were being bothered needn't say they were bothered anymore once they had to move to the shelters because the police burned down their houses.

ETA: And murdered the suspects (lest you forget), and their children (again, lest you forget).

[Anti Federalist]

I really can't believe people are defending move. What the cops did was wrong period, we don't need to argue that.

But move was on the verge of, if not terrorists. They antagonized their neighbors for years. Screamed over bullhorns all day and night, shot at them, left piles of human crap in the yard and more I don't have time or desire to list. Stake outs didn't work, they holed up in the houses for years.

I'd advise you check all the facts before you rush to defend these people, just because of the illegal actions of the cops against them.

I am fully aware of MOVE and what they were doing.

What they were doing is not relevant and only dilutes the more important message:

Cops dropped a fucking BOMB on a house containing innocent people, killing a number of them and burning down a whole city block in the process.

I don't care that MOVE may have been "terrorists".

I don't care that Randy Weaver may have been a racist.

I don't care that Rodney King may have been a thuggish crack head.

I don't care that David Koresh may have been a creepy child molester.

I don't care that Kelly Thomas may have been an irritating vagrant.

Do you understand that what these people may or may not have done does not enter in my reckoning at all?

It's wrong for cops to blow nursing mother's heads off.

It's wrong for cops to drop bombs on people.

It's wrong for cops to firebomb a building and machine gun people as they try to escape.

It's wrong for cops to beat non resisting mentally ill people to death.

OK?

IT IS FUCKING WRONG, period, no qualifiers and no alleged actions, however horrible, can justify it, ever.

[pcosmar]

IT IS FUCKING WRONG, period, no qualifiers and no alleged actions, however horrible, can justify it, ever.

It is as simple as that.

Why some go to great lengths to justify it just boggles.. :confused: :mad:

[pcosmar]

I really can't believe people are defending move.

I can't believe people are defending the police. :(

[Carson]

I remember being in Boy Scouts and an adult came to tell use some stories about his time in the FBI. It was in the sixties I think. I'm pretty sure he was in on one of the last big shootouts with gangsters. Anyway he told us about a couple of the last shootouts. Then he said that shootouts like those wouldn't be happening anymore. I think I asked him, "Why not?"

He didn't answer. He just sort of looked a little sheepish or sick like.

I think he was glad relieved to be retiring.

As the years rolled by every time a shootout type situation arose teargas canisters were tossed in blasting out flames until the place caught fire and burned down with everyone inside.

At least that's the way I'm remembering it tonight.

[Root]

Quoted for truth.


I am fully aware of MOVE and what they were doing.

What they were doing is not relevant and only dilutes the more important message:

Cops dropped a fucking BOMB on a house containing innocent people, killing a number of them and burning down a whole city block in the process.

I don't care that MOVE may have been "terrorists".

I don't care that Randy Weaver may have been a racist.

I don't care that Rodney King may have been a thuggish crack head.

I don't care that David Koresh may have been a creepy child molester.

I don't care that Kelly Thomas may have been an irritating vagrant.

Do you understand that what these people may or may not have done does not enter in my reckoning at all?

It's wrong for cops to blow nursing mother's heads off.

It's wrong for cops to drop bombs on people.

It's wrong for cops to firebomb a building and machine gun people as they try to escape.

It's wrong for cops to beat non resisting mentally ill people to death.

OK?

IT IS FUCKING WRONG, period, no qualifiers and no alleged actions, however horrible, can justify it, ever.

[Occam's Banana]

I am fully aware of MOVE and what they were doing.

What they were doing is not relevant and only dilutes the more important message:

Cops dropped a fucking BOMB on a house containing innocent people, killing a number of them and burning down a whole city block in the process.

I don't care that MOVE may have been "terrorists".

I don't care that Randy Weaver may have been a racist.

I don't care that Rodney King may have been a thuggish crack head.

I don't care that David Koresh may have been a creepy child molester.

I don't care that Kelly Thomas may have been an irritating vagrant.

Do you understand that what these people may or may not have done does not enter in my reckoning at all?

It's wrong for cops to blow nursing mother's heads off.

It's wrong for cops to drop bombs on people.

It's wrong for cops to firebomb a building and machine gun people as they try to escape.

It's wrong for cops to beat non resisting mentally ill people to death.

OK?

IT IS FUCKING WRONG, period, no qualifiers and no alleged actions, however horrible, can justify it, ever.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/8cb046e6f16e05f8521e15de31927f52/tumblr_mt80mvKYGn1rqfhi2o1_500.gif

[69360]

Nobody is arguing what the police did was wrong and criminal.

What I'm trying to tell all of you is that you probably want to pick a group other than move to point out police brutality if you want to get a positive response. The general public will have little to no sympathy for them. Your cause is better served by using innocent victims who were just going about their business bothering nobody.

[Cleaner44]

I am fully aware of MOVE and what they were doing.

What they were doing is not relevant and only dilutes the more important message:

Cops dropped a fucking BOMB on a house containing innocent people, killing a number of them and burning down a whole city block in the process.

I don't care that MOVE may have been "terrorists".

I don't care that Randy Weaver may have been a racist.

I don't care that Rodney King may have been a thuggish crack head.

I don't care that David Koresh may have been a creepy child molester.

I don't care that Kelly Thomas may have been an irritating vagrant.

Do you understand that what these people may or may not have done does not enter in my reckoning at all?

It's wrong for cops to blow nursing mother's heads off.

It's wrong for cops to drop bombs on people.

It's wrong for cops to firebomb a building and machine gun people as they try to escape.

It's wrong for cops to beat non resisting mentally ill people to death.

OK?

IT IS FUCKING WRONG, period, no qualifiers and no alleged actions, however horrible, can justify it, ever.

Post of the Year

For some reason the distinguished poster from Maine is spinning this into a defense of MOVE, which is bullshit. I don't see anyone defending MOVE, I see people calling out city government for not handling the matter in a professional way. Regardless of any crimes MOVE members may have committed, the police should always do their job in a professional manner and they completely failed in this case. It is not acceptable for the police to respond to crimes by committing crimes.

[phill4paul]

Nobody is arguing what the police did was wrong and criminal.

What I'm trying to tell all of you is that you probably want to pick a group other than move to point out police brutality if you want to get a positive response. The general public will have little to no sympathy for them. Your cause is better served by using innocent victims who were just going about their business bothering nobody.

No. This case is a great example as to how extreme measures, despite the intended consequence or reasoning, can indeed hurt those "going about their business bothering nobody." 5 innocent children died as the result of police action. 61 homes belonging to innocent victims going about their business were reduced to ashes. THIS was a consequence of police action. Not any action by MOVE members. It also stands as a precursor for "justified action" such as we saw at Waco.

[Occam's Banana]

Nobody is arguing what the police did was wrong and criminal.

What I'm trying to tell all of you is that you probably want to pick a group other than move to point out police brutality if you want to get a positive response. The general public will have little to no sympathy for them. Your cause is better served by using innocent victims who were just going about their business bothering nobody.

This isn't about vetting contestants for a Good Citizenship award. This is about, "There but for the grace of God, go I."

The State critically depends on people sharing your attitude about things like this. That's how they get away with it.
They count on us sneering contemptuously at the victims and turning our backs on "those people" in disgust and revulsion.

This is why it is the unsavory & unsympathetic (or those who can most easily be made to appear unsavory & unsympathetic) who bear the brunt of the State's brutality - the MOVEs, Weavers, Branch Davidians, etc. (Or, in other venues, the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, etc.) It always starts with the "undesirables" - but it rarely ends there.

Confining ourselves (for "public relations" purposes) to pleading the cases of only the "worthy" or comeliest victims just compounds & multiplies the original injustice. Criticizing the State's abuse & killing of "decent" or otherwise unobjectionable persons - while downplaying or ignoring the State's most egregious & flagrant assaults against the "unmentionables" - can only serve to reinforce the vicious double-standard upon which the State justifies its murderous actions.

[69360]

I think you're wrong. The Weavers and the Branch Davidians moved to remote areas and wanted nothing but to be left alone, they did not want trouble. Move on the other hand wanted trouble, they purposely antagonized their neighborhood and the police. That's why I am surprised to see people on here in support of move.

[pcosmar]

I think you're wrong. The Weavers and the Branch Davidians moved to remote areas and wanted nothing but to be left alone, they did not want trouble. Move on the other hand wanted trouble, they purposely antagonized their neighborhood and the police. That's why I am surprised to see people on here in support of move.
It has nothing to do with "supporting" MOVE.

But even if they had chosen to live elsewhere,, they still would have been attacked.

wherever they had been. The Weavers and the Branch Davidians prove that.

They likely should have gotten out of the City. But I recommend that to anyone.
There is NO FREEDOM in any city.

And there are other important lessons in this,, Like Never try to defend a fixed position against the State Enforcers.

[Occam's Banana]

I think you're wrong.

I think you only understand what you want to understand.


The Weavers and the Branch Davidians moved to remote areas and wanted nothing but to be left alone, they did not want trouble.

And what happened? They got trouble anyway - in spades. That's what.

And the government did everything in its power to make them look as bad as possible.

If you oppose what happened at Waco and Ruby Ridge, why do YOU support racism and child molestation? (See how that works?)


Move on the other hand wanted trouble, they purposely antagonized their neighborhood and the police.

None of which justifies in any way, shape or form what was done to them or how it was done.


That's why I am surprised to see people on here in support of move.

As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, this has nothing to do with "supporting" MOVE.

It has everything to do with opposing how MOVE was dealt with.

[phill4paul]

That's why I am surprised to see people on here in support of move.

You keep repeating this line of B.S. as if it were actually true.

[Anti Federalist]

Nobody is arguing what the police did was wrong and criminal.

What I'm trying to tell all of you is that you probably want to pick a group other than move to point out police brutality if you want to get a positive response. The general public will have little to no sympathy for them. Your cause is better served by using innocent victims who were just going about their business bothering nobody.

http://www.mathsisfun.com/images/obtuseangles.gif

http://kinialohaguy.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/banghead.gif

[Anti Federalist]

I think you're wrong. The Weavers and the Branch Davidians moved to remote areas and wanted nothing but to be left alone, they did not want trouble. Move on the other hand wanted trouble, they purposely antagonized their neighborhood and the police. That's why I am surprised to see people on here in support of move.

As others have already noted, what they wanted didn't matter.

Government doesn't give a frog's fat ass if you live in Manhattan or Squatter's Crog Alaska.

If they want to destroy you, they will, which is the point of this whole damn thing.

Cops don't have the right to unilaterally "take you out" like a hostile combatant, regardless of what you may or may not have done.

[tod evans]

Cops don't have the right to unilaterally "take you out" like a hostile combatant, regardless of what you may or may not have done.

Oh really?

Vicki Weaver might have something to say about that...........Or maybe David Koresh.....

[Anti Federalist]

Precisely.

The esteemed poster from Maine is under the delusion that living out in the boondocks is some sort of protection from the system when it goes Full Nazi Retard.

While under normal circumstances it is much more desirable than living in a crowded city, if the forces of Mordor want you, they are going to find you.

And burn you out and blow you up, unless we somehow put a stop to this.



This isn't about vetting contestants for a Good Citizenship award. This is about, "There but for the grace of God, go I."

The State critically depends on people sharing your attitude about things like this. That's how they get away with it.
They count on us sneering contemptuously at the victims and turning our backs on "those people" in disgust and revulsion.

This is why it is the unsavory & unsympathetic (or those who can most easily be made to appear unsavory & unsympathetic) who bear the brunt of the State's brutality - the MOVEs, Weavers, Branch Davidians, etc. (Or, in other venues, the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, etc.) It always starts with the "undesirables" - but it rarely ends there.

Confining ourselves (for "public relations" purposes) to pleading the cases of only the "worthy" or comeliest victims just compounds & multiplies the original injustice. Criticizing the State's abuse & killing of "decent" or otherwise unobjectionable persons - while downplaying or ignoring the State's most egregious & flagrant assaults against the "unmentionables" - can only serve to reinforce the vicious double-standard upon which the State justifies its murderous actions.

[tod evans]

And burn you out and blow you up, unless we somehow put a stop to this.

Some advocate for flowers and voting.......:rolleyes:

[Anti Federalist]

Nobody is arguing what the police did was wrong and criminal.

What I'm trying to tell all of you is that you probably want to pick a group other than move to point out police brutality if you want to get a positive response. The general public will have little to no sympathy for them. Your cause is better served by using innocent victims who were just going about their business bothering nobody.

Upon further reflection, maybe I was too harsh.

Look, I know what you're saying, and when it comes to posting "cop bashing" news, I do self censor a lot of what I see, due to just what you mentioned here, that there was so much negative "baggage" surrounding the suspects that all it would do is make people shrug it off and say, "meh, they deserved it".

But in cases like this there is no grey area.

Nothing could justify what the cops did here.

[Anti Federalist]

Some advocate for flowers and voting.......:rolleyes:

Some well thought out, strongly worded but polite and neatly organized letters of disapproval will set things right.

[tod evans]

Some well thought out, strongly worded but polite and neatly organized letters of disapproval will set things right.

Yessssssss, they will.

[pcosmar]

That's why I am surprised to see people on here in support of move.


It has nothing to do with "supporting" MOVE.


In all my previous post I expressed NO support for MOVE. But since you wish to make that an issue.
YES,, I do support them.

I support their right to their religious beliefs. Even if I do not agree with them 100%.

I support their choice and their right to live as they wish.

I find nothing that I have heard (Much of which I believe to be overblown) any different to the annoyances that people have to deal with on a daily basis.

Noxious Chemicals being spewed into the air,, By cars trucks, buses and factories. Noise from Clock towers and Church Bells, Sirens and loudspeakers.
Garbage trucks in the wee hours of the morning. Cars honking.
All of which City folk tolerate .

And Rodents?? I have been in several cities,,with no group like MOVE,, and there are rats.. Companies make millions in Pest control,, and yet there are still rats.

It is my personal opinion that the Industrial Revolution was a huge mistake. or at best,, very poorly done.

So yes in many ways I can sympathize with their beliefs and lifestyle choices.

And there are lots of people that simply insist of sticking their noses in other peoples business,, and fucking with everyone.
That is why I hate cities the most.

This was a peaceful group until they were attacked repeatedly.. And they resisted..They defended themselves. They fought the attackers.
For that they have my respect.

[kcchiefs6465]

I think you're wrong. The Weavers and the Branch Davidians moved to remote areas and wanted nothing but to be left alone, they did not want trouble. Move on the other hand wanted trouble, they purposely antagonized their neighborhood and the police. That's why I am surprised to see people on here in support of move.
How much I could not care what their alleged crimes, sins, imperfections, or vices were I could not express clearly enough for you to grasp.

[tangent4ronpaul]

the Philadelphia Police Department dropped a bomb from a helicopter on a fortified residence occupied by members of a group called MOVE. The subsequent fire killed six adults and five children associated with MOVE and destroyed 61 homes.

^^^^Anyone else notice that?

From what I remember at the time, the cops dropped a firebomb on a ROWHOUSE and that got out of control and ended up taking out something like 10 city blocks...

-t