"fighting for our freedom" - how to respond?

[samforpaul]

Could fellow Ron Paul Forum posters help me out here? Once again I heard this thrown out regarding a soldier in Afghanistan. Could you tell me what you believe to be a kind, diplomatic response to this mantra whether it be in Afghanistan or Iraq?

[tod evans]

Freedom is impugned by waging wars.

Doesn't matter if their wars are here in this country or overseas, I am less free for their efforts.

[Warlord]

Freeeeeeeeeeeedom

[cajuncocoa]

What freedoms did Afghanistan put at risk?

Our freedoms are at risk, but we're doing it to ourselves....no one (away from this board) seems to care about that.

[Anti Federalist]

Could fellow Ron Paul Forum posters help me out here? Once again I heard this thrown out regarding a soldier in Afghanistan. Could you tell me what you believe to be a kind, diplomatic response to this mantra whether it be in Afghanistan or Iraq?

Ask them to name a single freedom taken away by an Afghan.

Then, list all the freedoms taken away by the government.

[Cleaner44]

As soon as someone is Afghanistan pushes for legislation to infringe on my right to bear arms I will let you know. Meanwhile Washington D.C. is filled with people that want to reduce my freedom and they act as if they have some authority to legitimately do so. I wish these soldiers would go to D.C. if they really want to fight for my freedom, because that is where the highest priority threat is. There is nothing that any soldiers of Afghanistan can do to reduce my freedom as much as the people in my own capitol. :(

[samforpaul]

When I hear people use that phrase I get the feeling that they're saying it in a context of the US soldiers are fighting over there so that terrorism from those parts of the world don't occur here.

[Occam's Banana]

Ask them to name a single freedom taken away by an Afghan.

Then, list all the freedoms taken away by the government.

/thread

[tod evans]

When I hear people use that phrase I get the feeling that they're saying it in a context of the US soldiers are fighting over there so that terrorism from those parts of the world don't occur here.

Alleged "terrorism" is actually retaliation.

[otherone]

Could you tell me what you believe to be a kind, diplomatic response to this mantra whether it be in Afghanistan or Iraq?

Why respond at all? You'd be debating a soundbite, not a person. If you must engage him, maybe simply ask him what he means by that?

[pcosmar]

When I hear people use that phrase I get the feeling that they're saying it in a context of the US soldiers are fighting over there so that terrorism from those parts of the world don't occur here.

What terrorism?

We were never attacked by Afghanistan or by the people of Afghanistan.
And for all the hype,, there is no evidence that Osama bin Laden had anything to do with 9/11.
His attacks were all in the Mid East, and against legitimate Military targets. The FBI could find no involvement in the 9/11 attacks.

[libertarianMoney]

"If you were fighting for our freedom then you'd be fighting in DC."

Wait... That's probably not very diplomatic... Shucks...

You could just break into laughter and say, "Good one!"

[Ender]

Suggest they read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins.

Pretty explicit about what the US is doing in other countries and a real eyeopener.

[enoch150]

If you want to be polite about it, don't mention Afghanistan or Iraq at all. Just say "the biggest threat to our freedom these days is in Washington D.C." and leave it at that.

If you attack their service as worthless or counterproductive, you're just going to turn them off to anything else you have to say. Let them come to that realization over time.

[samforpaul]

We were never attacked by Afghanistan or by the people of Afghanistan.



Ohhh, but that's where training took place and where the plot was launched. Or something to that effect I've heard.

[pcosmar]

Ohhh, but that's where training took place and where the plot was launched. Or something to that effect I've heard.

they were training in the United States.
They were funded by Saudis.

And the Afghan Government offered to turn over Osama,, if there was any evidence of his involvement.

[Acala]

Ohhh, but that's where training took place and where the plot was launched. Or something to that effect I've heard.
By the very people WE trained to fight the Russians. Before that we helped the Russians fight the Germans.

[Occam's Banana]

By the very people WE trained to fight the Russians. Before that we helped the Russians fight the Germans.

But at least we didn't help the Germans fight anyone ... did we?

[pcosmar]

But at least we didn't help the Germans fight anyone ... did we?

who is "we"?

[Occam's Banana]

who is "we"?

Ask Acala. He started it! :p

[Christian Liberty]

I have no nice answers to this, but it perpetually ticks me off and I'm really tired of hearing it. Part of me doesn't care about being diplomatic, part of me does.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

We ARE fighting for our freedom. We're in an economic straight jacket so tight that it's cutting off our circulation. The so-called fighting is a futile effort to free ourselves of the jacket.

The effort however, is now counterproductive. The more we struggle to exploit another colored group--the tighter the jacket gets.

[Acala]

But at least we didn't help the Germans fight anyone ... did we?

During the cold war we helped them "fight" the Russians.

[phill4paul]

"I'm a vet. Can I buy you a beer or two? There's some things I've come to understand, on my own and through my brother-in-arms experience, that I'd like you to know about."

[Pericles]

It is easier to chant a slogan than it is to work through all of the geoploitical implications of a proposed course of action.

[oyarde]

When I hear people use that phrase I get the feeling that they're saying it in a context of the US soldiers are fighting over there so that terrorism from those parts of the world don't occur here.

The Afghanis cannot get to me , if they do they are toast.

[oyarde]

Could fellow Ron Paul Forum posters help me out here? Once again I heard this thrown out regarding a soldier in Afghanistan. Could you tell me what you believe to be a kind, diplomatic response to this mantra whether it be in Afghanistan or Iraq?

If fighting overseas against a nation that has not attacked , noboby is fighting for any freedom really . Some may benefit ( some will not ) temporarily, locally but that can change negatively dramatically when the forces leave ( assuming the goal is to ever leave ). If you want freedom , you must fight for it yourself , you cannot rely on others.

[Occam's Banana]

During the cold war we helped them "fight" the Russians.

Well, damn. I was hoping we could keep the chain going. "We are fighting the Afghanis after helping them fight the Russians, after helping the Russians fight the Germans, after helping the Germans fight X, after helping X fight Y, after helping Y fight Z, after helping Z fight ..." and so forth.

Oh, well. I guess we'll just have to stop at the recursive "after helping the Germans fight the Russians" and call it a circle-jerk.

[GunnyFreedom]

When I hear people use that phrase I get the feeling that they're saying it in a context of the US soldiers are fighting over there so that terrorism from those parts of the world don't occur here.

And yet the more we fight people over there who have never even conceived of committing acts of terror against the United States, once they lose a cousin, or an uncle, or a father , or a son; THEN they make it their life's mission to attack us. We are engendering more danger from terrorism by killing people who have never thought to do us harm, thus creating five enemies for every one person we kill. Thirteen years later we are in far more danger of a terrorist attack than we ever were in August of 2001.

[milgram]

I'd focus on the military itself. Look at its undue influence on foreign policy -- does perpetual war and foreign adventurism increase or decrease freedom? Look at the impact of the huge military budget -- the effects of continuing deficits/debt/QE, the marginalization of more worthy budgetary priorities -- both seemingly undermine the quality of life for the average citizen.

Furthermore, what happens to the billions spent developing new ways to fight wars? The results of those R&D dollars have arrived domestically in the form of armored personnel carriers, drones, license plate scanners, facial recognition, etc. The military has essentially provided police state technologies to all levels of govt - federal, state, local -- for use on the general public.

And perhaps it's a little far afield from your soldier in Afghanistan, but remember the NSA is also part of the military.

All told the military is one of the biggest hindrances to freedom.

[GunnyFreedom]

I'd focus on the military itself. Look at its undue influence on foreign policy -- does perpetual war and foreign adventurism increase or decrease freedom? Look at the impact of the huge military budget -- the effects of continuing deficits/debt/QE, the marginalization of more worthy budgetary priorities -- both seemingly undermine the quality of life for the average citizen.

Furthermore, what happens to the billions spent developing new ways to fight wars? The results of those R&D dollars have arrived domestically in the form of armored personnel carriers, drones, license plate scanners, facial recognition, etc. The military has essentially provided police state technologies to all levels of govt - federal, state, local -- for use on the general public.

And perhaps it's a little far afield from your soldier in Afghanistan, but remember the NSA is also part of the military.

All told the military is one of the biggest hindrances to freedom.

Don't confuse the military itself with the military industrial complex. Remember that Ron Paul received more donations from active duty military than all other candidates combined. Both in 2008 and in 2012.

[Christian Liberty]

Don't confuse the military itself with the military industrial complex. Remember that Ron Paul received more donations from active duty military than all other candidates combined. Both in 2008 and in 2012.

Soldiers themselves are more antiwar than the average because they have to go fight the wars, that's true. But they still volunteer to risk their lives to fight for the military industrial complex.

What's your take on this?:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/01/laurence-m-vance/you-cant-have-a-war-without-soldiers/

[oyarde]

Soldiers themselves are more antiwar than the average because they have to go fight the wars, that's true. But they still volunteer to risk their lives to fight for the military industrial complex.

What's your take on this?:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/01/laurence-m-vance/you-cant-have-a-war-without-soldiers/

I think that article is crap , like any others of his I have read ( only a few) and I am a bit suprised people get pd for writing them .

[oyarde]

Maybe ten percent of the population are veterans , maybe 10 percent of those have ever been in a situation of serious danger. You cannot name anything in common this one percent has . This one percent , overall compared to any comparable age group at " a construction site " ( which in itself is not possible because the avg construction site would be much older with more work experience ) would have a work ethic that far exceeeds it . You cannot compare apples & oranges , Zebras or Crocs . Complete shit . As expected .

[Christian Liberty]

I think that article is crap , like any others of his I have read ( only a few) and I am a bit suprised people get pd for writing them .

Well, I was asking Gunny in particular, but I'd love to hear some actual thoughts on WHY its crap. I feel like Vance hit the nail right on the head.

[GunnyFreedom]

I told you I don't want to answer this line of inquiry from you, because I think you are full of crap, and I am not here to generate conflict.

I didn't join the Marines to "fight for the military industrial complex." I joined the Marines to stand a watchman on the wall and put my own life-blood between my country and whatever should come to do my countrymen harm. I joined the Marines because the only Word I carried out of my childhood was "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." and I doggone well meant to live it or die trying.

You wrongfully impugn the motives of 95% of everyone who steps to and swears the oath by assigning crap to their intent that none of them even know about when they join. Your biases have blinded you to reality itself, and I already know that even God Himself come down off His throne to tell you that you were wrong you would accuse Him of not being God.

Stop dragging me into your fetid delusions already! If you think I joined the Marine Corps to fight for Halliburton, GE, and Lockheed Martin, then I would accuse you of catastrophic brain failure. I was a Constitutionalist out of grade school and all I wanted to do was defend the Constitution. It's those bastards that the rest of you keep electing what keep despitefully using us.

An enlisted man slugging through the desert getting shot at blown up limbs tore off and deeply scarred for a whopping $27k; once all the dying is done gets to sit on his bloody stumps what used to be legs and watch Blackwater/XE/Academi whatever the heck they call themselves this week swoop in after all the dying is done making $300-$500k a year; and you think we're fighting for them??? Piss off! And for the love of God stop asking me what I think about your irrational and biased delusions!

[oyarde]

Well, I was asking Gunny in particular, but I'd love to hear some actual thoughts on WHY its crap. I feel like Vance hit the nail right on the head.

I already covered that very quickly , I could do much more , but would consider it wasted time.

[KCIndy]

I told you I don't want to answer this line of inquiry from you, because I think you are full of crap, and I am not here to generate conflict.

I didn't join the Marines to "fight for the military industrial complex." I joined the Marines to stand a watchman on the wall and put my own life-blood between my country and whatever should come to do my countrymen harm. I joined the Marines because the only Word I carried out of my childhood was "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." and I doggone well meant to live it or die trying.

You wrongfully impugn the motives of 95% of everyone who steps to and swears the oath by assigning crap to their intent that none of them even know about when they join. Your biases have blinded you to reality itself, and I already know that even God Himself come down off His throne to tell you that you were wrong you would accuse Him of not being God.

Stop dragging me into your fetid delusions already! If you think I joined the Marine Corps to fight for Halliburton, GE, and Lockheed Martin, then I would accuse you of catastrophic brain failure. I was a Constitutionalist out of grade school and all I wanted to do was defend the Constitution. It's those bastards that the rest of you keep electing what keep despitefully using us.

An enlisted man slugging through the desert getting shot at blown up limbs tore off and deeply scarred for a whopping $27k; once all the dying is done gets to sit on his bloody stumps what used to be legs and watch Blackwater/XE/Academi whatever the heck they call themselves this week swoop in after all the dying is done making $300-$500k a year; and you think we're fighting for them??? Piss off! And for the love of God stop asking me what I think about your irrational and biased delusions!


Once in a great while, these boards see a post that deserves more +Rep than is possible to give.

In my opinion, this is one of them.