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Origanalist
01-18-2014, 08:13 AM
HIROO ONODA, WWII JAPANESE SOLDIER WHO HID IN JUNGLE STILL FIGHTING UNTIL 1974, DIES AT 91

http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Big-Peace/2014/01/17/imperial_soldier_AP.jpg

Hiroo Onoda, an Imperial Japanese Army officer who stayed at his post in the Philippines for 29 years after World War II ended because he would not believe the war was over, died at the age of 91 in Tokyo on Thursday.

Onoda finally returned to Japan in 1974, occasioning a hero’s welcome among the Japanese for his devotion to duty that contrasted with the bustling materialism of post-war Japan. Onoda was a throwback; he went to war believing Emperor Hirohito was a god and the war was a sacred duty. He survived on Lubang Island for 29 years as a guerrilla, eating bananas and coconuts and killing innocent villagers he assumed were enemies.


Onoda was ordered in early 1945 to remain on the island, 93 miles southwest of Manila, and continue fighting after Japanese forces fled from an American invasion.

Onoda, an intelligence officer, joined three other men and managed to hide from American and Filipino search parties, but in the process they killed roughly 30 innocent villagers. One of Onoda’s group surrendered to Filipino forces in 1950, two others were shot and killed by island police searching for renegades, but Onoda was officially declared dead in 1959.

In 1974, a Japanese student searching for him, Norio Suzuki, found Onoda but Onoda rejected Suzuki’s pleas to return to Japan because he had no official orders. However, Onoda relented when Suzuki returned with photographs, and the Japanese government sent a group that included Onoda’s brother and former commander.

Onoda presented his sword to Philippine President Marcos, who pardoned him, then returned the sword. When Onoda returned to Japan, there were flag-waving crowds celebrating his story of personal survival and devotion to duty. Onoda, who was then 52, said, “I was fortunate that I could devote myself to my duty in my young and vigorous years.” The Mainichi Shimbun, a leading Tokyo newspaper, said:

To this soldier, duty took precedence over personal sentiments. Onoda has shown us that there is much more in life than just material affluence and selfish pursuits. There is the spiritual aspect, something we may have forgotten.

Continued at http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/01/17/Hiroo-Onoda-WWII-Japanese-Soldier-Who-Hid-in-Jungle-Still-Fighting-until-1974-Dies-at-91

Icymudpuppy
01-18-2014, 08:46 AM
To this soldier, duty took precedence over personal sentiments. Onoda has shown us that there is much more in life than just material affluence and selfish pursuits. There is the spiritual aspect, something we may have forgotten.


FIFY...


To this soldier, Authoritarianism took precedence over personal morality. Onoda has shown us that there is nothing more dangerous in life than mindless devotion to authority and its selfish pursuits. Something many have forgotten.

kahless
01-18-2014, 09:04 AM
Onoda finally returned to Japan in 1974, occasioning a hero’s welcome....

but in the process they killed roughly 30 innocent villagers.
.....
When Onoda returned to Japan, there were flag-waving crowds celebrating his story of personal survival and devotion to duty.

Celebrating and flag waving crowds, nice. :rolleyes: Savages.

Unfortunately it seems nothing has changed, the worship of the state and authoritarianism is still celebrated. Just look at the comments in that article .

It sucks having to live on the same planet with these people.

CPUd
01-18-2014, 09:43 AM
http://i.imgur.com/G7xTFrJ.jpg

XNavyNuke
01-18-2014, 09:53 AM
FIFY...


To this soldier, Authoritarianism took precedence over personal morality. Onoda has shown us that there is nothing more dangerous in life than mindless devotion to authority and its selfish pursuits. Something many have forgotten.

The pre-war education system of Japan would make Prussian acolytes envious. Compulsory attendance starting at age 6, continuous moral indoctrination on what the Empire found acceptable, and an national emphasis on university attendance controlled by the power elites.

XNN

kahless
01-18-2014, 10:09 AM
The pre-war education system of Japan would make Prussian acolytes envious. Compulsory attendance starting at age 6, continuous moral indoctrination on what the Empire found acceptable, and an national emphasis on university attendance controlled by the power elites.

XNN

You just described the USA of today.

Origanalist
01-18-2014, 10:43 AM
FIFY...


To this soldier, Authoritarianism took precedence over personal morality. Onoda has shown us that there is nothing more dangerous in life than mindless devotion to authority and its selfish pursuits. Something many have forgotten.

Fixed it for them, technically speaking.

Origanalist
01-18-2014, 10:44 AM
You just described the USA of today.

It does have a familiar ring to it.

samforpaul
01-18-2014, 11:44 AM
Interesting story. Truly pathetic though, the part of him killing innocent civilians.

jjdoyle
01-18-2014, 01:56 PM
Interesting story. Truly pathetic though, the part of him killing innocent civilians.

It really is an interesting story. I was telling my wife about it, and we got curious about the student that went looking for him, since he had already been declared dead in 1959. The student that found him, well, his story is a bit ironic. It is written, "Suzuki then decided to search for the officer. He expressed his decision in this way: He wanted to search for "Lieutenant Onoda, a panda, and the Abominable Snowman, in that order"."

So, he found his first search objective, and apparently found his second as well, but his third....
"Norio Suzuki died in November 1986, in an avalanche while searching for the yeti. His remains were returned to his family."

Maybe he found the yeti, and the avalanche was caused when he screamed with excitement? We'll never know...

More here about why he went searching for the soldier, and I couldn't believe what he found the soldier wearing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norio_Suzuki_(explorer)

Origanalist
01-18-2014, 07:24 PM
It really is an interesting story. I was telling my wife about it, and we got curious about the student that went looking for him, since he had already been declared dead in 1959. The student that found him, well, his story is a bit ironic. It is written, "Suzuki then decided to search for the officer. He expressed his decision in this way: He wanted to search for "Lieutenant Onoda, a panda, and the Abominable Snowman, in that order"."

So, he found his first search objective, and apparently found his second as well, but his third....
"Norio Suzuki died in November 1986, in an avalanche while searching for the yeti. His remains were returned to his family."

Maybe he found the yeti, and the avalanche was caused when he screamed with excitement? We'll never know...

More here about why he went searching for the soldier, and I couldn't believe what he found the soldier wearing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norio_Suzuki_(explorer)

It is a interesting story. Even besides the obvious picture of a brainwashed soldier and his hero's welcome. I posted it because I thought many here may not have heard of it. (speaking mostly about the younger folks here.)

oyarde
01-18-2014, 09:15 PM
The guy was an officer , typical Japanese officer for the time .

jmdrake
01-20-2014, 06:53 AM
Interesting story. Truly pathetic though, the part of him killing innocent civilians.

Yes. But such a mentality is unfortunately alive and well in the U.S. A friend of mine who is a teocon was telling about the new movie "Lone Survivor" based on a true story of some special forces troops on a mission to kill some Taliban leader who stumbled upon a goat herder and his boy. My friend said "They thought about killing them but didn't because of what the liberal media would have said." So...the bad guys in the story are the liberal media that wouldn't have approved of killing an innocent boy just so you can complete some damn mission? I didn't respond as I wanted to as this friend was almost persuaded to vote for Ron last time and might jump on the "Randwaggon", but my goodness that comment made my stomach turn. Oh yeah, and he's in church every Sunday.

Icymudpuppy
02-05-2014, 03:54 PM
Yes. But such a mentality is unfortunately alive and well in the U.S. A friend of mine who is a teocon was telling about the new movie "Lone Survivor" based on a true story of some special forces troops on a mission to kill some Taliban leader who stumbled upon a goat herder and his boy. My friend said "They thought about killing them but didn't because of what the liberal media would have said." So...the bad guys in the story are the liberal media that wouldn't have approved of killing an innocent boy just so you can complete some damn mission? I didn't respond as I wanted to as this friend was almost persuaded to vote for Ron last time and might jump on the "Randwaggon", but my goodness that comment made my stomach turn. Oh yeah, and he's in church every Sunday.

I would have said something. Like "Do YOU approve of killing innocents for the sake of a mission. I don't."

Cutlerzzz
02-05-2014, 04:16 PM
He heroically served his country. The people of Japan only had their freedom and security in WWII because of men like him.

oyarde
02-06-2014, 01:14 AM
I never intend to surrender.

Spikender
02-06-2014, 02:05 AM
I never intend to surrender.

Indeed. The one thing I will say about this man is that I hope to be like him if I ever have to fight for my freedom. Not the shitty freedom our Government pedals, but real freedom.

AngryCanadian
02-06-2014, 02:44 AM
He heroically served his country. The people of Japan only had their freedom and security in WWII because of men like him.

Ah yes The people of Japan only had their freedom and security in WWII because of men like him By dropping two nuclear bombs killing nearly a million innocent men, women and children just going about there daily lives.

What America did to Japan and its population was not a act of an victor but cowardly and shamefully.

FloralScent
02-06-2014, 09:25 AM
...selfish pursuits.

I believe the correct term in this case is 'selfless'.

Mani
02-07-2014, 05:05 AM
Japanese soldiers did some sick shit in WWII. Not saying other nations were less brutal, but I wonder if this soldier was involved in the famous ruthless death march of the Philippines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March

http://www.history.com/topics/bataan-death-march



Speaking of ruthlessness, how about the Nanking massacre that some of today's Japanese Nationalist leaders call, A FABRICATION. This is like Silence of the Lambs sick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

The Nanking Massacre, also known as the Rape of Nanking, was an episode of mass murder and mass rape committed by Japanese troops against Nanking...during the Second Sino-Japanese War in 1937. Widespread rape and looting also occurred....Historians and witnesses have estimated that 250,000 to 300,000 people were killed...5]


"The International Military Tribunal for the Far East estimated that 20,000 women were raped, including infants and the elderly.[40] A large portion of these rapes were systematized in a process where soldiers would search door-to-door for young girls, with many women taken captive and gang raped.[41] The women were often killed immediately after being raped, often through explicit mutilation[42] or by stabbing a bayonet, long stick of bamboo, or other objects into the vagina. Young children were not exempt from these atrocities, and were cut open to allow Japanese soldiers to rape them."

"..Two Japanese soldiers have climbed over the garden wall and are about to break into our house. When I appear they give the excuse that they saw two Chinese soldiers climb over the wall. When I show them my party badge, they return the same way. In one of the houses in the narrow street behind my garden wall, a woman was raped, and then wounded in the neck with a bayonet. I managed to get an ambulance so we can take her to Kulou Hospital ... Last night up to 1,000 women and girls are said to have been raped, about 100 girls at Ginling College Girls alone. You hear nothing but rape. If husbands or brothers intervene, they're shot. What you hear and see on all sides is the brutality and bestiality of the Japanese soldiers.."

"Pregnant women were a target of murder, as they would often be bayoneted in the stomach, sometimes after rape. Tang Junshan, survivor and witness to one of the Japanese army’s systematic mass killings, testified:

The seventh and last person in the first row was a pregnant woman. The soldier thought he might as well rape her before killing her, so he pulled her out of the group to a spot about ten meters away. As he was trying to rape her, the woman resisted fiercely ... The soldier abruptly stabbed her in the belly with a bayonet. She gave a final scream as her intestines spilled out. Then the soldier stabbed the fetus, with its umbilical cord clearly visible, and tossed it aside..."

(You can read much more about the murder and rape of an entire city)


(Let's re-write the history books. It never happened!)
http://www.ibtimes.com/japanese-nhk-board-member-naoki-hyakuta-denies-nanjing-massacre-happened-1553257


A heroes fucking welcome huh...Coz he never stopped his duty. Ya a real hero murdering a bunch of villagers.



As a side note, I'm not Anti-Japanese, Japan is one of my favorite countries, and walking on the streets of Tokyo and outside areas, I'm in love with the people, it maybe the friendliest country in the world or at least one of the friendliest. Love it there.

Yet I can't agree with pretending Japanese soldiers didn't do some sick twisted fucked up shit to an entire city. Just as I'm not proud my country incinerated two cities full of civilians, I can't let it pass that the Japanese army raped, killed, and mutilated and entire population. We are not talking a few bad apples but an entire army of murderers and rapists. And now a few generations later ready to say, "ah it's all B.S, never happened...A few bad apples run amok just like every other army out there."


I don't see any victors here. Japanese did some sick twisted shit. Americans wiped out a population and future generation, just to flex their muscles. We are the only country to drop the bomb, what kind of fucked up jihadist drops a fucking nuclear bomb on a city!?! TWICE!?!?

Yet we wave the flag around just like the Japanese do and pretend we are saving the world.

RM918
02-07-2014, 05:48 AM
He should've been shot in the head the second they had the opportunity.

The thirty innocent villagers are nothing more than an off-hand comment in this article, but these were human beings. You don't know their families, you don't know the pain they had to go through. Whenever I hear something like this, I have to force myself to think: What if one of these statistics was my mother, my father, one of my best friends? My girlfriend, me?

It is incredibly sad this piece of shit lived as long as he did and was actually CELEBRATED for the rest of his life. If there's a hell, I hope he's burning in it along with whatever asshole of a leader actually pardoned him after murdering his citizens.

FloralScent
02-07-2014, 08:01 AM
Just as I'm not proud my country incinerated two cities full of civilians....

Two cities?

LibertyEagle
02-07-2014, 08:09 AM
Ah yes The people of Japan only had their freedom and security in WWII because of men like him By dropping two nuclear bombs killing nearly a million innocent men, women and children just going about there daily lives.

What America did to Japan and its population was not a act of an victor but cowardly and shamefully.

Pound dirt, Canadian. Dropping those bombs saved a lot of American lives.

You must have forgotten that Japan attacked US.

jmdrake
02-07-2014, 08:57 AM
Pound dirt, Canadian. Dropping those bombs saved a lot of American lives.

You must have forgotten that Japan attacked US.

Bullocks. The Japanese were about ready to surrender. And even if they weren't ready, there was no reason we couldn't have waited them out. Yes they attacked (they were baited to attack by Roosevelt but still). But by the time they were nuked they had no navy, no air force, no allies, no oil supply, no long range missiles (those things didn't exist), and a decimated army. The only American lives "saved" were the ones that would have been wasted on a land invasion that didn't need to happen. General Dwight D. Eisenhower took this same position. While you are free to disagree with someone like Eisenhower, he certainly was no "Canadian".

Dwight Eisenhower's view on using the Atomic Bomb

"In 1945 ... , Secretary of War Stimson visited my headquarters in Germany, [and] informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act.... During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and second because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face.' The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude, almost angrily refuting the reasons I gave for my quick conclusions."

Edit: And if we go with the "They attacked us" as justification for nuking two cities of an already defeated and contained foe, then 9/11 justifies anything we do with regards to foreign policy.

Icymudpuppy
02-07-2014, 09:17 AM
Two cities?

Hiroshima AND Nagasaki. Two cities.

Origanalist
02-07-2014, 09:27 AM
Hiroshima AND Nagasaki. Two cities.

http://www.ditext.com/japan/napalm.html
http://www.rense.com/general19/flame.htm

klamath
02-07-2014, 09:39 AM
Carrying "duty honor, country" to it highest level.
The hypocrisy around here always makes me choke. People will post something about the horrors that happen in war and dozen upon dozens will rail against it only to turn around in another thread and want a civil war in this country.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Origanalist
02-07-2014, 09:49 AM
Carrying "duty honor, country" to it highest level.
The hypocrisy around here always makes me choke. People will post something about the horrors that happen in war and dozen upon dozens will rail against it only to turn around in another thread and want a civil war in this country.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

What's wrong with you? Nobody here "wants" a civil war, we aren't the ones pushing into other peoples lives and liberty.

klamath
02-07-2014, 10:06 AM
What's wrong with you? Nobody here "wants" a civil war, we aren't the ones pushing into other peoples lives and liberty.
And you are blind to what is said around here. I have seen it flat out blatantly stated.

Origanalist
02-07-2014, 10:11 AM
And you are blind to what is said around here. I have seen it flat out blatantly stated.

I have seen it blatantly stated that the government is out of control, massively overstepped it's constitutional boundaries and that many of us would dearly love to be separated from those that wish to hold power over us. I don't recall anyone wishing for a war. I do recall many stating the obvious fact that it may take one to regain freedom.

klamath
02-07-2014, 10:19 AM
I have seen it blatantly stated that the government is out of control, massively overstepped it's constitutional boundaries and that many of us would dearly love to be separated from those that wish to hold power over us. I don't recall anyone wishing for a war. I do recall many stating the obvious fact that it may take one to regain freedom.
What is so "obvious" about it? What is obvious is a war brings everything in my signature line and an extremely dubious history of achieving freedom. In fact it has much much greater history of bringing worst tyranny.

Origanalist
02-07-2014, 10:29 AM
What is so "obvious" about it? What is obvious is a war brings everything in my signature line and an extremely dubious history of achieving freedom. In fact it has much much greater history of bringing worst tyranny.

I will agree with this, and if enough people stand up against those wishing to impose their will no violence is needed at all. However, it is not the people here being the aggressors.

klamath
02-07-2014, 10:46 AM
I will agree with this, and if enough people stand up against those wishing to impose their will no violence is needed at all. However, it is not the people here being the aggressors.Still waiting for the history of wonderful achievements of freedom war has brought?
What is laughable is that so many claim to be enlightened and refuse to be indoctrinated by the "State" yet they fall for the worst indoctrination of states ever perpetuated. "Fighting for our freedom." The very idea that war brings freedom IS state indoctrinated crap of the highest order.

Origanalist
02-07-2014, 10:53 AM
Still waiting for the history of wonderful achievements of freedom war has brought?
What is laughable is that so many claim to be enlightened and refuse to be indoctrinated by the "State" yet they fall for the worst indoctrination of states ever perpetuated. "Fighting for our freedom." The very idea that war brings freedom IS state indoctrinated crap of the highest order.

So in your view, there is never a point at which people can say enough, no longer will I allow this aggression?

klamath
02-07-2014, 10:56 AM
So in your view, there is never a point at which people can say enough, no longer will I allow this aggression?
answer the question.

Origanalist
02-07-2014, 11:00 AM
No, I'm not waiting for any answer. I am under no delusion that war is noble or desirable. It is death and suffering on a massive scale.

Now answer mine.

klamath
02-07-2014, 11:21 AM
No, I'm not waiting for any answer. I am under no delusion that war is noble or desirable. It is death and suffering on a massive scale.

Now answer mine.Like I thought none of you can ever answer this question. Just the repeat of state indoctrination.

Origanalist
02-07-2014, 11:23 AM
Like I thought none of you can ever answer this question. Just the repeat of state indoctrination.

Maybe you need to be more specific. I'm sure I'm just being dense.

Or do you prefer to to just feel morally superior?

klamath
02-07-2014, 11:30 AM
Maybe you need to be more specific. I'm sure I'm just being dense.

Or do you prefer to to just feel morally superior? What wars really brought freedom?

Origanalist
02-07-2014, 11:38 AM
What wars really brought freedom?

One could say our revolutionary war brought a short period of self determination. It obviously didn't last very long. Again, I don't want war.

You keep asking this question. I keep saying I don't want war. You have yet to answer mine. Is there ever a point where you say that's it, you are going to leave me alone?

klamath
02-07-2014, 12:06 PM
One could say our revolutionary war brought a short period of self determination. It obviously didn't last very long. Again, I don't want war.

You keep asking this question. I keep saying I don't want war. You have yet to answer mine. Is there ever a point where you say that's it, you are going to leave me alone?
Collective self determination of your government does not necessarily mean freedom for the individual. The revolutionary war did not do that for many individual residents of North America.
I never said YOU said you wanted war. Others have. Some have blatantly said they want war others say they don't want war but then go on the state that freedom can be gained by no other method. Unless they really don't want freedom that is saying they want war. I will defend my own but I will never again join a machine that kills innocents with my name attached to it.

AuH20
02-07-2014, 12:20 PM
Japanese soldiers did some sick shit in WWII. Not saying other nations were less brutal, but I wonder if this soldier was involved in the famous ruthless death march of the Philippines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March

http://www.history.com/topics/bataan-death-march



Speaking of ruthlessness, how about the Nanking massacre that some of today's Japanese Nationalist leaders call, A FABRICATION. This is like Silence of the Lambs sick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

The Nanking Massacre, also known as the Rape of Nanking, was an episode of mass murder and mass rape committed by Japanese troops against Nanking...during the Second Sino-Japanese War in 1937. Widespread rape and looting also occurred....Historians and witnesses have estimated that 250,000 to 300,000 people were killed...5]


"The International Military Tribunal for the Far East estimated that 20,000 women were raped, including infants and the elderly.[40] A large portion of these rapes were systematized in a process where soldiers would search door-to-door for young girls, with many women taken captive and gang raped.[41] The women were often killed immediately after being raped, often through explicit mutilation[42] or by stabbing a bayonet, long stick of bamboo, or other objects into the vagina. Young children were not exempt from these atrocities, and were cut open to allow Japanese soldiers to rape them."

"..Two Japanese soldiers have climbed over the garden wall and are about to break into our house. When I appear they give the excuse that they saw two Chinese soldiers climb over the wall. When I show them my party badge, they return the same way. In one of the houses in the narrow street behind my garden wall, a woman was raped, and then wounded in the neck with a bayonet. I managed to get an ambulance so we can take her to Kulou Hospital ... Last night up to 1,000 women and girls are said to have been raped, about 100 girls at Ginling College Girls alone. You hear nothing but rape. If husbands or brothers intervene, they're shot. What you hear and see on all sides is the brutality and bestiality of the Japanese soldiers.."

"Pregnant women were a target of murder, as they would often be bayoneted in the stomach, sometimes after rape. Tang Junshan, survivor and witness to one of the Japanese army’s systematic mass killings, testified:

The seventh and last person in the first row was a pregnant woman. The soldier thought he might as well rape her before killing her, so he pulled her out of the group to a spot about ten meters away. As he was trying to rape her, the woman resisted fiercely ... The soldier abruptly stabbed her in the belly with a bayonet. She gave a final scream as her intestines spilled out. Then the soldier stabbed the fetus, with its umbilical cord clearly visible, and tossed it aside..."

(You can read much more about the murder and rape of an entire city)


(Let's re-write the history books. It never happened!)
http://www.ibtimes.com/japanese-nhk-board-member-naoki-hyakuta-denies-nanjing-massacre-happened-1553257


A heroes fucking welcome huh...Coz he never stopped his duty. Ya a real hero murdering a bunch of villagers.



As a side note, I'm not Anti-Japanese, Japan is one of my favorite countries, and walking on the streets of Tokyo and outside areas, I'm in love with the people, it maybe the friendliest country in the world or at least one of the friendliest. Love it there.

Yet I can't agree with pretending Japanese soldiers didn't do some sick twisted fucked up shit to an entire city. Just as I'm not proud my country incinerated two cities full of civilians, I can't let it pass that the Japanese army raped, killed, and mutilated and entire population. We are not talking a few bad apples but an entire army of murderers and rapists. And now a few generations later ready to say, "ah it's all B.S, never happened...A few bad apples run amok just like every other army out there."


I don't see any victors here. Japanese did some sick twisted shit. Americans wiped out a population and future generation, just to flex their muscles. We are the only country to drop the bomb, what kind of fucked up jihadist drops a fucking nuclear bomb on a city!?! TWICE!?!?

Yet we wave the flag around just like the Japanese do and pretend we are saving the world.

You just summed up why the surrounding Asiatic peoples still despise the Japanese.

Origanalist
02-07-2014, 12:24 PM
Collective self determination of your government does not necessarily mean freedom for the individual. The revolutionary war did not do that for many individual residents of North America.

100% true. And it didn't last for those that did acquire self determination (many times at the expense of others).


I will defend my own but I will never again join a machine that kills innocents with my name attached to it.

We are not really at odds here. And one guaranteed fact of war is when it's over those running it will immediately seek to limit your liberty.

AuH20
02-07-2014, 12:24 PM
And you are blind to what is said around here. I have seen it flat out blatantly stated.

Freedom is a contact sport. It is taken as opposed to given. Such is the story of man. And anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a comfortable dreamland.

VIDEODROME
02-07-2014, 12:29 PM
I think Human Nature still has a lot of tribal instinct by default and this is an interesting case of how that can be expressed. The Pride develops around wearing the uniform of a larger collective and how well they serve it. I think this guy's very sense of identity was completely wrapped up in Japan's fighting ability.

I think this happens with Americans today to varying degrees. Even ones at home who are not soldiers sort of vicariously participate in the nationalism while watching Shock & Awe bombs drop in Iraq and sporting "Support Our Troops" memorabilia.

It makes me think about the party atmosphere following the reported death of Osama Bin Laden. I mean I was glad to hear Bin Laden's dead, but it seemed like there was a lot of chest thumping "We kicked Bin Laden's Ass" feeling. As if some people ego's are tied to their nation's military might.

Origanalist
02-07-2014, 12:35 PM
I think Human Nature still has a lot of tribal instinct by default and this is an interesting case of how that can be expressed. The Pride develops around wearing the uniform of a larger collective and how well they serve it. I think this guy's very sense of identity was completely wrapped up in Japan's fighting ability.

I think this happens with Americans today to varying degrees. Even ones at home who are not soldiers sort of vicariously participate in the nationalism while watching Shock & Awe bombs drop in Iraq and sporting "Support Our Troops" memorabilia.

It makes me think about the party atmosphere following the reported death of Osama Bin Laden. I mean I was glad to hear Bin Laden's dead, but it seemed like there was a lot of chest thumping "We kicked Bin Laden's Ass" feeling. As if some people ego's are tied to their nation's military might.

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0149/4340/products/Back-To-Back-World-War-Champs_1_1024x1024.jpg%3Fv%3D1363120570

klamath
02-07-2014, 12:36 PM
I think Human Nature still has a lot of tribal instinct by default and this is an interesting case of how that can be expressed. The Pride develops around wearing the uniform of a larger collective and how well they serve it. I think this guy's very sense of identity was completely wrapped up in Japan's fighting ability.

I think this happens with Americans today to varying degrees. Even ones at home who are not soldiers sort of vicariously participate in the nationalism while watching Shock & Awe bombs drop in Iraq and sporting "Support Our Troops" memorabilia.

It makes me think about the party atmosphere following the reported death of Osama Bin Laden. I mean I was glad to hear Bin Laden's dead, but it seemed like there was a lot of chest thumping "We kicked Bin Laden's Ass" feeling. As if some people ego's are tied to their nation's military might.It is so deep it is actually in our genes however as thinking humans it is possible to override our instincts.

Bastiat's The Law
02-07-2014, 01:21 PM
Someone make a DEDICATION meme.

kcchiefs6465
02-07-2014, 08:52 PM
Collective self determination of your government does not necessarily mean freedom for the individual. The revolutionary war did not do that for many individual residents of North America.
I never said YOU said you wanted war. Others have. Some have blatantly said they want war others say they don't want war but then go on the state that freedom can be gained by no other method. Unless they really don't want freedom that is saying they want war. I will defend my own but I will never again join a machine that kills innocents with my name attached to it.
The people being aggressed against want war? It seems to me they want peace. And freedom. I would say the people aggressing, trampling rights, and flagrantly and daringly denying human rights want war.

What you did, or didn't do in the army has no bearing. This is not a machine. It is people who are getting goddamned tired of being constantly molded, disrespected, and downright violated.

Watch and wait what happens. Japanese internment, Cheka disappearances, Stasi surveillance grids and snitch networks, Khmer Rouge gun confiscation, American war. Ten years from now it will be utterly unfathomable how panoptic this society will become.. how despotic this government has become, how consent of the governed being a prime requirement of any rightful government has been buried. The Revolutionary War was all for naught. And you know what? The people probably deserve it.

Let them put a camera on every damn corner. And rob people blind to pay for it.

You fail to see that the Bolshevik Revolution will commence once the dollar falls. World currency pleas I hear. "Please", I hear. Well self-government was a neat experiment the couple of years it [kind of] lasted.

klamath
02-07-2014, 09:37 PM
The people being aggressed against want war? It seems to me they want peace. And freedom. I would say the people aggressing, trampling rights, and flagrantly and daringly denying human rights want war.

What you did, or didn't do in the army has no bearing. This is not a machine. It is people who are getting goddamned tired of being constantly molded, disrespected, and downright violated.

Watch and wait what happens. Japanese internment, Cheka disappearances, Stasi surveillance grids and snitch networks, Khmer Rouge gun confiscation, American war. Ten years from now it will be utterly unfathomable how panoptic this society will become.. how despotic this government has become, how consent of the governed being a prime requirement of any rightful government has been buried. The Revolutionary War was all for naught. And you know what? The people probably deserve it.

Let them put a camera on every damn corner. And rob people blind to pay for it.

You fail to see that the Bolshevik Revolution will commence once the dollar falls. World currency pleas I hear. "Please", I hear. Well self-government was a neat experiment the couple of years it [kind of] lasted. The collective mind of the Americans is why we have exactly the kind of government we have. A collective army of libertarians/and anarchists would commit just exactly the same type of atrocities or any other army in history. Hell we had a guy on here that went to jail for threatening to go shoot up a school with enough seriousness that his own sister turned him in. Yeaw go ahead and tell me how your fellow freedom lover shooting up a school is going to be great for the cause of freedom.

kcchiefs6465
02-07-2014, 09:58 PM
Hell we had a guy on here that went to jail for threatening to go shoot up a school with enough seriousness that his own sister turned him in. Yeaw go ahead and tell me how your fellow freedom lover shooting up a school is going to be great for the cause of freedom.
The fuck are you babbling about?

ETA: And don't put me in some goddamn group of possible thought crime committing "fellow freedom lovers." (whatever the hell that means)

Whose crimes are worse? It doesn't even need said.

kcchiefs6465
02-07-2014, 10:08 PM
The collective mind of the Americans is why we have exactly the kind of government we have. A collective army of libertarians/and anarchists would commit just exactly the same type of atrocities or any other army in history.
Who's speaking of collective anarchist armies? I was referring to individuals being fed up. Not collective armies. And I wasn't referring to people making war against anyone. I was referring to self-defense. And don't exaggerate or purposely misconstrue my position (as the edited out part of this post did). Non-interventionists want peace. They are the ones being constantly assaulted and goaded into "attack." They aren't looking for fights. They are trying to keep what is their's.

You are correct in your first sentence though. Wait until the collective America is in debt so deep they can't feed themselves. Wait until the bailout intentionally collapses the dollar. Wait until martial law is declared for a little while to quell the riots. Wait until the people beg for a world currency or if successful in their revolts instill a tyrannical government thriving even further on collectivism.

GunnyFreedom
02-07-2014, 11:01 PM
I don't want war, not even a little bit. Everything I have been doing these last 8 years now has been an intensive effort to prevent it. I'm just really worried that maybe at this point it cannot be avoided. Maybe it will come whether we want it or not. For myself, I do not want it at all, but if it comes I will be ready for it. Not because I want to, but because what is the alternative really? Line up and walk peacefully onto the boxcars? Not in this lifetime!

kcchiefs6465
02-07-2014, 11:19 PM
I don't want war, not even a little bit. Everything I have been doing these last 8 years now has been an intensive effort to prevent it. I'm just really worried that maybe at this point it cannot be avoided. Maybe it will come whether we want it or not. For myself, I do not want it at all, but if it comes I will be ready for it. Not because I want to, but because what is the alternative really? Line up and walk peacefully onto the boxcars? Not in this lifetime!
The "war" will be when the student loan bubble bursts and when people are on the hook for a cool trillion.

They'll lock down a couple major cities for the "people's protection." Eventually a majority will come around to a world currency (if it means they'll be temporarily fed). (A world currency would have prevented that bubble, after all. Greedy capitalist schools.)

They don't need to put anyone "on boxcars." The people would ride willingly. They've mastered the art. A seemingly infinite money supply, it's no wonder. Educate as many people who can be.

AuH20
02-07-2014, 11:27 PM
I don't want war, not even a little bit. Everything I have been doing these last 8 years now has been an intensive effort to prevent it. I'm just really worried that maybe at this point it cannot be avoided. Maybe it will come whether we want it or not. For myself, I do not want it at all, but if it comes I will be ready for it. Not because I want to, but because what is the alternative really? Line up and walk peacefully onto the boxcars? Not in this lifetime!

There are still too many "resistors" that they can't cheaply buy off or appease at this stage of the game. I think that's really the elephant in the room for the criminal element that runs the USA. Inevitably, it's going to come to a head in some rural part of the country ala the Randy Weaver incident and then the spark will be lit.

And then the most profound question will be. How many politicians, department heads, CEOs and bureaucrats are they willing to sacrifice in order to maintain their system of control? What is the acceptable price of "progress" because I have a good idea on the large estimate that we're willing to endure to keep the boot of tyranny off our necks. See I could care less about their well compensated foot soldiers or security apparatus goons with sub room temperature IQs. They are of no concern to me. I know in my heart of hearts that our "superiors" are cowardly and craven, so I already know the answer. I doubt they even wipe their own asses these days.Take the fight to the ivory towers and the conflict will end much quickly than you think.

We may be unwashed but we aren't all dumb. (see below)

http://www.secretsofthefed.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/FollowTheMoney-Bank-Pyramid.jpg

And my regards go out to the NSA and all it's fine employees who have made a career of pissing away our much desired birthright.

klamath
02-08-2014, 07:12 AM
Who's speaking of collective anarchist armies? I was referring to individuals being fed up. Not collective armies. And I wasn't referring to people making war against anyone. I was referring to self-defense. And don't exaggerate or purposely misconstrue my position (as the edited out part of this post did). Non-interventionists want peace. They are the ones being constantly assaulted and goaded into "attack." There aren't looking for fights. There are trying to keep what is their's.

You are correct in your first sentence though. Wait until the collective America is in debt so deep they can't feed themselves. Wait until the bailout intentionally collapses the dollar. Wait until martial law is declared for a little while to quell the riots. Wait until the people beg for a world currency or if successful in their revolts instill a tyrannical government thriving even further on collectivism.Define self defense. If it means a bunch of you getting together to defend yourselves it is a collective machine.

klamath
02-08-2014, 07:24 AM
I don't want war, not even a little bit. Everything I have been doing these last 8 years now has been an intensive effort to prevent it. I'm just really worried that maybe at this point it cannot be avoided. Maybe it will come whether we want it or not. For myself, I do not want it at all, but if it comes I will be ready for it. Not because I want to, but because what is the alternative really? Line up and walk peacefully onto the boxcars? Not in this lifetime!You know what the difference is wilth you Gunny. You do everything in your power to find an alternate way. I don't see you jumping on the bandwagon to throw every politician out as an evil if they don't agree with you 100% and then turn around and make statements that war is the only way. So they pick the ultimate evil in the end. They pick the ultimate evil that has an extremely poor historical record of EVER achieving individual freedom.

William R
02-08-2014, 10:43 AM
bump

kcchiefs6465
02-08-2014, 11:42 AM
Define self defense. If it means a bunch of you getting together to defend yourselves it is a collective machine.
People are legitimate in seeking others to provide for the common defense of all so long as they are following the Law, for one.

What I was referring to specifically was people defending their property and lives from unending aggression.

klamath
02-08-2014, 11:53 AM
People are legitimate in seeking others to provide for the common defense of all so long as they are following the Law, for one.

What I was referring to specifically was people defending their property and lives from unending aggression.What law? Whether they are legitimate has no bearing once they join up they are a collective and their moral standing is no greater than the weakest person in that collective army. When someone goes Lt Calley it reflects directly on your moral high ground and you will soon find your stand is no less evil that those you oppose.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 11:54 AM
People are legitimate in seeking others to provide for the common defense of all so long as they are following the Law, for one.

What I was referring to specifically was people defending their property and lives from unending aggression.

That's really the heart of the discussion. Unending aggression that has been continuously perpetrated by the TPTB that dominate our government. Every alphabet agency in this country has already engaged itself in an active, largely psychological war with the American people from the oppressive taxation methods to 24/7 surveillance on multiple mediums. The outright violation of our citizen/government contract in the form of the U.S. Constitution (Bill of Rights more specifically) gives me the right to defend myself and eliminate any deemed threats. Any civility or subservience guaranteed by this document has been rendered null & void due it's abrogation. The 2nd amendment affords me the power to terminate and dissolve any such bonds that have grown abusive. It is the 'out' clause in the Constitution.

Seraphim
02-08-2014, 12:07 PM
One less violent Statist sheep to worry about. Good ridance:

"he went to war believing Emperor Hirohito was a god and the war was a sacred duty. He survived on Lubang Island for 29 years as a guerrilla, eating bananas and coconuts and killing innocent villagers he assumed were enemies."

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 12:23 PM
That's really the heart of the discussion. Unending aggression that has been continuously perpetrated by the TPTB that dominate our government. Every alphabet agency in this country has already engaged itself in an active, largely psychological war with the American people from the oppressive taxation methods to 24/7 surveillance on multiple mediums. The outright violation of our citizen/government contract in the form of the U.S. Constitution (Bill of Rights more specifically) gives me the right to defend myself and eliminate any deemed threats. Any civility or subservience guaranteed by this document has been rendered null & void due it's abrogation. The 2nd amendment affords me the power to terminate and dissolve any such bonds that have grown abusive. It is the 'out' clause in the Constitution.

Practically, any such conflict will be abhorrently one-sided. Patriots would die horrible, grisly deaths nearly 1000 to 1. Their friends and families will rounded up and tortured for information as to their whereabouts and habits. Homes will be destroyed with their women and children still in them. Our cause would be sullied and demonized to the point that totalitarian communism becomes the hero, and the sheeple will give a standing ovation to every freedom lover that swung by the neck on live television. The technological imbalance existing in the modern world would make the Jewish Ghettos of 1939 appear to be inhabited by a population of Rambos compared to what would happen to people who fight back now. People simply do not understand the kind of overwhelming force that would be brought to bear here. It will make Shock And Awe look like a small town fireworks display. There is almost no scenario under which this could happen that would not give the government the moral high ground in the minds of the sheep. Given that reality, any such eventuality will be terribly counter-productive, and lead to a worse tyranny than at the start. If such a thing as this were to ever happen, it is imperative that they attack first, second, third, fourth, fifth; maybe 10 times until the sheeple themselves clamor for a response before any response is given, otherwise action can only make things ultimately worse. It's not fair, it's not just, it's just reality.

Origanalist
02-08-2014, 12:29 PM
Practically, any such conflict will be abhorrently one-sided. Patriots would die horrible, grisly deaths nearly 1000 to 1. Their friends and families will rounded up and tortured for information as to their whereabouts and habits. Homes will be destroyed with their women and children still in them. Our cause would be sullied and demonized to the point that totalitarian communism becomes the hero, and the sheeple will give a standing ovation to every freedom lover that swung by the neck on live television. The technological imbalance existing in the modern world would make the Jewish Ghettos of 1939 appear to be inhabited by a population of Rambos compared to what would happen to people who fight back now. People simply do not understand the kind of overwhelming force that would be brought to bear here. It will make Shock And Awe look like a small town fireworks display. There is almost no scenario under which this could happen that would not give the government the moral high ground in the minds of the sheep. Given that reality, any such eventuality will be terribly counter-productive, and lead to a worse tyranny than at the start. If such a thing as this were to ever happen, it is imperative that they attack first, second, third, fourth, fifth; maybe 10 times until the sheeple themselves clamor for a response before any response is given, otherwise action can only make things ultimately worse. It's not fair, it's not just, it's just reality.

Big fat plus rep. The King isn't across the Atlantic anymore, and the populous is mentally enslaved still. None of this happens without a great awakening. And while there has been progress, we have a long way to go baby.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 12:36 PM
Practically, any such conflict will be abhorrently one-sided. Patriots would die horrible, grisly deaths nearly 1000 to 1. Their friends and families will rounded up and tortured for information as to their whereabouts and habits. Homes will be destroyed with their women and children still in them. Our cause would be sullied and demonized to the point that totalitarian communism becomes the hero, and the sheeple will give a standing ovation to every freedom lover that swung by the neck on live television. The technological imbalance existing in the modern world would make the Jewish Ghettos of 1939 appear to be inhabited by a population of Rambos compared to what would happen to people who fight back now. People simply do not understand the kind of overwhelming force that would be brought to bear here. It will make Shock And Awe look like a small town fireworks display. There is almost no scenario under which this could happen that would not give the government the moral high ground in the minds of the sheep. Given that reality, any such eventuality will be terribly counter-productive, and lead to a worse tyranny than at the start. If such a thing as this were to ever happen, it is imperative that they attack first, second, third, fourth, fifth; maybe 10 times until the sheeple themselves clamor for a response before any response is given, otherwise action can only make things ultimately worse. It's not fair, it's not just, it's just reality.

I disagree. This coming battle is solely about will. Once this gets ratcheted to a significant crescendo up you will have DHS, FBI, and CIA employees calling in sick en masse. You can't spend your pension face down in a lime pit. Notice how they deride us as Constitutional nuts? The classification is very revealing. Constitutional nuts are willing to go the extra mile as opposed to being solely motivated by a paycheck. That is the massive chink in the armor of this control grid. Everyone is a tough guy with force multipliers at their back at 3 AM. Turn it around and those same men are hiding in their cellar. The enemy is a large man with a glass jaw and bad knees.

kcchiefs6465
02-08-2014, 12:38 PM
Big fat plus rep. The King isn't across the Atlantic anymore, and the populous is mentally enslaved still. None of this happens without a great awakening. And while there has been progress, we have a long way to go baby.
Truth be told, coming up quite soon is the point where even a great awakening will not matter (and that's assuming there will even be some great awakening, which there will not be). Those in power will not be untrenched easily. The technology will become too great.

So with that, it was a nice run while it lasted. The earth will be forever poisoned through their evil. Hopefully next time, if there is a next time, the asshole part of humanity is left out. Have fun while you can.

Origanalist
02-08-2014, 12:42 PM
There is no Paul Revere. There are no Minutemen. There is however a whole lot of this;

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1322585!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/cops20n-5.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDJeft8TPCT_NE1lHnT0OdF9ajO2KfR c3lDdhgkzYf6CnLrTSX

AuH20
02-08-2014, 12:47 PM
There is no Paul Revere. There are no Minutemen. There is however a whole lot of this;

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1322585!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/cops20n-5.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDJeft8TPCT_NE1lHnT0OdF9ajO2KfR c3lDdhgkzYf6CnLrTSX

Loyalists are going to be loyalists, especially in the braindead metro areas.

Origanalist
02-08-2014, 12:49 PM
Loyalists are going to be loyalists, especially in the braindead metro areas.

It's true the metro area's are the worst, but suburbia isn't really any better.

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 12:54 PM
I disagree. This coming battle is solely about will. Once this gets ratcheted to a significant crescendo up you will have DHS, FBI, and CIA employees calling in sick en masse. You can't spend your pension face down in a lime pit. Notice how they deride us as Constitutional nuts? Constitutional nuts are willing to go the extra mile as opposed to being solely motivated by a paycheck. That is the massive chink in the armor of this control grid. Everyone is a tough guy with force multipliers at their back at 3 AM. Turn it around and those same men are hiding in their cellar. The enemy is a large man with a glass jaw and bad knees.

You take one shot, and then perform an immediate egress because you have learned enough to know that "shoot and scoot" is the only viable tactic in asymmetrical warfare on the short end of the stick. Some pimply-faced teenager in a conex box 500 miles away tags your IR signature from a drone near the stratosphere and drops a Hellfire Missile on your head while you are trying to egress. That night, FOX News reports an attempted act of terrorism was thwarted when your explosives detonated accidentally before you were able to plant them at the nuclear reactor in an attempt to poison and irradiate the entire State, the vile terrorist had ties to known dissidents like Ron and Rand Paul. And, in completely unrelated news one Captain Smith was shot in a convenience store during a gangland robbery, a simple case of wrong place wrong time, and no, the security cameras were malfunctioning at the time, so there is no video of the slaying, but the suspect remains at large. Funeral services for the hero Smith will be conducted on Wednesday.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 12:56 PM
These cretins think they can WAIT US OUT!! There can be no peace or reconciliation when your opponents talk like this:


When an opponent declares, “I will not come over to your side,” I calmly say, “Your child belongs to us already…. What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community. – Adolf Hitler

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/penny-starr/panelist-podesta-think-tank-common-core-children-belong-all-us


In addressing criticism of the Common Core national education standards, a panelist at the Center for American Progress (CAP), a liberal think tank, said critics were a “tiny minority” who opposed standards altogether, which was unfair because “the children belong to all of us.”

AuH20
02-08-2014, 12:59 PM
You take one shot, and then perform an immediate egress because you have learned enough to know that "shoot and scoot" is the only viable tactic in asymmetrical warfare on the short end of the stick. Some pimply-faced teenager in a conex box 500 miles away tags your IR signature from a drone near the stratosphere and drops a Hellfire Missile on your head while you are trying to egress. That night, FOX News reports an attempted act of terrorism was thwarted when your explosives detonated accidentally before you were able to plant them at the nuclear reactor in an attempt to poison and irradiate the entire State, the vile terrorist had ties to known dissidents like Ron and Rand Paul. And, in completely unrelated news one Captain Smith was shot in a convenience store during a gangland robbery, a simple case of wrong place wrong time, and no, the security cameras were malfunctioning at the time, so there is no video of the slaying, but the suspect remains at large.

Do you think that is going to prosecuted under normal conditions? Of course not. This will be done within a window of opportunity, given a food shortage, grid takedown or another calamity. The biggest liability to Fed Gov is the maintenance of Boobus. Never forget this. Taking care of Boobus and making sure he stays docile is a humongous and time exhaustive task. High population centers are a potential nightmare to be unleashed if you are resourceful enough.

klamath
02-08-2014, 01:17 PM
It makes it soooooo eaaaasy to think you have a specified flesh and blood target that IS the evil. That flesh and blood target IS your neighbors that doesn't vote exactly like you tell them to vote exactly when you tell them to. Unfortunately they have their own minds that believe just as strongly as you that THEY are voting the right thing.

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 01:19 PM
Do you think that is going to prosecuted under normal conditions? Of course not. This will be done within a window of opportunity, given a food shortage, grid takedown or another calamity. The biggest liability to Fed Gov is the maintenance of Boobus. Never forget this. Taking care of Boobus and making sure he stays docile is a humongous and time exhaustive task.

You are fooling yourself if you think this would be anything less than what I've described. Any such calamity will be directly blamed on the people who take up arms, and Boobus will be first in line to tell the DHS that you are a violent dissident. Those acts of violence will drive Boobus even more tightly into the arms of their actual oppressors, and we will end up in a far worse state than when it started.

There will be no SS troops marching into the Ghettos in fear of their lives for going back home to their families, your killers will operate by remote control. Your most ferocious attacks will land solely on robots, androids, and drones.

You simply do not grasp the situation we are in today. There is literally NO scenario in which you shoot first that will not end up with America in a worse position than we are already in. The only viable scenario for the use of force outside of self-defense alone, is for them to fire first, and for your people to get hit a dozen times without striking back. When it gets to the point of absurdity where Boobus himself is crying out "this is stupid, why aren't they fighting back?" THAT is the only point at which taking up arms will not be entirely counter-productive in today's modern world. You have to win Boobus over entirely before you reach for your weapon the first time, or any action you take you may as well be shooting freedom patriots yourself, because that is the effect you will ultimately have.

ETA: ^^^ And even then it will still be a 1000 to 1 kill ratio, and most of those 1's will be publicly proclaimed as 'accidental.'

AuH20
02-08-2014, 01:23 PM
You are fooling yourself if you think this would be anything less than what I've described. Any such calamity will be directly blamed on the people who take up arms, and Boobus will be first in line to tell the DHS that you are a violent dissident. Those acts of violence will drive Boobus even more tightly into the arms of their actual oppressors, and we will end up in a far worse state than when it started.

There will be no SS troops marching into the Ghettos in fear of their lives for going back home to their families, your killers will operate by remote control. Your most ferocious attacks will land solely on robots, androids, and drones.

You simply do not grasp the situation we are in today. There is literally NO scenario in which you shoot first that will not end up with America in a worse position than we are already in. The only viable scenario for the use of force outside of self-defense alone, is for them to fire first, and for your people to get hit a dozen times without striking back. When it gets to the point of absurdity where Boobus himself is crying out "this is stupid, why aren't they fighting back?" THAT is the only point at which taking up arms will not be entirely counter-productive in today's modern world. You have to win Boobus over entirely before you reach for your weapon the first time, or any action you take you may as well be shooting freedom patriots yourself, because that is the effect you will ultimately have.

Who here is advocating to strike first? That would be a death sentence in a status quo scenario with the DOW at 16000 and the Apple stores full. I'm stating that the Leviathan is inherently weak due to it's cumbersome size, patronage based motivations and it's complex love/hate relationship with Boobus.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 01:26 PM
It makes it soooooo eaaaasy to think you have a specified flesh and blood target that IS the evil. That flesh and blood target IS your neighbors that doesn't vote exactly like you tell them to vote exactly when you tell them to. Unfortunately they have their own minds that believe just as strongly as you that THEY are voting the right thing.

Who said Boobus is the enemy? Secondly, who would waste their time and enemy waging war on boobus? Boobus doesn't direct policy. Boobus is given a small portion of the total information landscape in which to make a decision between two rigged options. Where does most of the U.S. policy originate from, that filters down to the halls of Congress? Elite funded think tanks and industry lobbyists.

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 01:33 PM
Who here is advocating to strike first? That would be a death sentence in a status quo scenario with the DOW at 16000 and the Apple stores full. I'm stating that the Leviathan is inherently weak due to it's cumbersome size, patronage based motivations and it's complex love/hate relationship with Boobus.

Strike first or strike last, you still die at a rate of 1000 to 1. Underestimating your enemy is the worst possible mistake you can make in a war. Also, you are still thinking in terms of 3GW when they will be prosecuting 4GW and 5GW. It would be as ugly as if a modern mechanized battalion rolled up on Revolutionary War massed formations.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 01:37 PM
Strike first or strike last, you still die at a rate of 1000 to 1. Underestimating your enemy is the worst possible mistake you can make in a war. Also, you are still thinking in terms of 3GW when they will be prosecuting 4GW and 5GW. It would be as ugly as if a modern mechanized battalion rolled up on Revolutionary War massed formations.

And what will be the potential fallout internally for prosecuting a 4GW and 5GW upon friends and family members? A 40% desertion rate, while creating a direct pipeline to the resistance? They need to utilize discretion or this could blow up in their faces. Taking the mask of sanity off in such an abrupt fashion could be potentially disastrous for their cohesiveness. I could care less how airtight you propaganda organs are but you're not getting away with dropping ordinance in populated areas. No way in hell. The sedated populace can holler and cheer when Baghdad is under a shock and awe campaign but it's a different story when it's occurring down the block.

klamath
02-08-2014, 01:37 PM
Who said Boobus is the enemy? Secondly, who would waste their time and enemy waging war on boobus? Boobus doesn't direct policy. Boobus is given a small portion of the total information landscape in which to make a decision between two rigged options. Where does most of the policy originate from, that filters down to the halls of Congress? Elite funded think tanks. Boobus DOES direct policy as the collective amalgam of hundreds of millions of ideas and beliefs. As a collective we have exactly the kind of government we created. Try and change it and see how quickly the man next door argues with those changes.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 01:41 PM
Boobus DOES direct policy as the collective amalgam of hundreds of millions of ideas and beliefs. As a collective we have exactly the kind of government we created. Try and change it and see how quickly the man next door argues with those changes.
Yes, the key word is argue. That's all Boobus will do. Boobus is a prop of consensus. He's not 3 dimensional. It's like a cardboard cutout in the background.

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 01:57 PM
And what will be the potential fallout internally for prosecuting a 4GW and 5GW upon friends and family members? A 40% desertion rate, while creating a direct pipeline to the resistance? They need to utilize discretion or this could blow up in their faces. Taking the mask of sanity off in such an abrupt fashion could be potentially disastrous for their cohesiveness. I could care less how airtight you propaganda organs are but you're not getting away with dropping ordinance in populated areas. No way in hell. The sedated populace can holler and cheer when Baghdad is under a shock and awe campaign but it's a different story when it's occurring down the block.

"There was no ordinance, the terrorist was trying to plant a bomb that detonated prematurely. He was trying to poison our water, which would have sickened or killed us all! Just think of the children who rely on municipal water for formula! Those businesses that were near the terrorist when his explosives detonated will be compensated by taxpayer money to rebuild bigger, better, and stronger. Those vile terrorist vermin will not get their way, every time they attack we will rebuild better than what they destroyed!"

You will end up with people going to bed at night praying that the next terrorist "accidentally detonates" near their home so they can get a bigger house without paying for it. You fighting 3GW while they fight 4GW will drive cohesion into THEIR court. I'm not just making this stuff up, you know. I wasn't a cook in the Marines, I was an Intelligence Analyst. These are topics I have dealt with quite directly.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 02:04 PM
"There was no ordinance, the terrorist was trying to plant a bomb that detonated prematurely. He was trying to poison our water, which would have sickened or killed us all! Just think of the children who rely on municipal water for formula! Those businesses that were near the terrorist when his explosives detonated will be compensated by taxpayer money to rebuild bigger, better, and stronger. Those vile terrorist vermin will not get their way, every time they attack we will rebuild better than what they destroyed!"

You will end up with people going to bed at night praying that the next terrorist "accidentally detonates" near their home so they can get a bigger house without paying for it. You fighting 3GW while they fight 4GW will drive cohesion into THEIR court. I'm not just making this stuff up, you know. I wasn't a cook in the Marines, I was an Intelligence Analyst. These are topics I have dealt with quite directly.

You're telling me that they're going to tell the residents that the terrorists got their hands on Apache attack helicopters and dispersed hellfire missiles into the neighborhood? Really? The whirling of rotor blades are pretty easy to distinguish, even for a mentally incapacitated servant like Boobus. And then there is the issue of portable handheld devices that can document every encounter. You can lie your ass off but there are significant obstacles at work that will destroy any such narrative. Are you going to eliminate 100s of witnesses who are adamant what they heard, saw and felt? I really hope this sort of braggadocio is being taught in our military intelligence schools. I welcome such naivete and arrogance.

Origanalist
02-08-2014, 02:10 PM
You're telling me that they're going to tell the residents that the terrorists got their hands on Apache attack helicopters and dispersed hellfire missiles into the neighborhood? Really? The whirling of rotor blades are pretty easy to distinguish, even for a mentally incapacitated servant like Boobus. And then there is the issue of portable handheld devices that can document every encounter. You can lie your ass off but there are significant obstacles at work that will destroy any such narrative. Are you going to eliminate 100s of witnesses who are adamant what they heard, saw and felt?

Where have you been? I don't want to sound like I'm riding you but really, why do you think they need an Apache helicopter? And if you don't think they can control the narrative you haven't been paying attention.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 02:12 PM
Where have you been? I don't want to sound like I'm riding you but really, why do you think they need an Apache helicopter?

Gunny stated that they will prosecute with a 4gw/5gw mentality, which translates into utilizing maximum force & lethality.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 02:14 PM
Where have you been? I don't want to sound like I'm riding you but really, why do you think they need an Apache helicopter? And if you don't think they can control the narrative you haven't been paying attention.

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-you-can-fool-all-the-people-some-of-the-time-and-some-of-the-people-all-the-time-but-you-cannot-abraham-lincoln-112735.jpg

Origanalist
02-08-2014, 02:15 PM
Gunny stated that they will prosecute with a 4gw/5gw mentality, which translates into utilizing maximum force & lethality.

Would that not include drones?

AuH20
02-08-2014, 02:17 PM
Would that not include drones?

That too. But to insist that the "terrists" would be deploying million dollar drones is another lie that won't float.

Origanalist
02-08-2014, 02:17 PM
http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-you-can-fool-all-the-people-some-of-the-time-and-some-of-the-people-all-the-time-but-you-cannot-abraham-lincoln-112735.jpg

As has always been the case, the rest are simply wrote off as nutjobs and conspiracy theorists.

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 02:19 PM
In Iraq and Afghanistan, we faced populations who already distrusted us, and who were experienced and accustomed to war before we even showed up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Terror#Casualties

"Official" casualty counts for Iraq put the ratio at 35 to 1, while unofficial casualty counts place the ratio at 260 to 1

Afghanistan, even more distrustful of the US and even more accustomed to war, returns an "official" ratio of 14 to 1, and an unofficial ratio of 25 to 1.

Here in America, not only are the people NOT accustomed to war at all, but they tend to be a lot more trusting of our government than the populations of either Iraq or Afghanistan. My (actually no-kidding trained to do this kind of work) back of the napkin calculations return a KIA casualty ratio in the American scenario somewhere between 500 to 1 and 1000 to 1. The only way to fight 4GW is with 4GW, which in this case means 'turning the other cheek' as many as a dozen times in the face of real attacks before resigning to fight unwillingly.

Origanalist
02-08-2014, 02:21 PM
That too. But to insist that the "terrists" would be deploying million dollar drones is another lie that won't float.

They would do no such thing, they would deny any drone was involved at all as long as they could get away with it.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 02:22 PM
They would do no such thing, they would deny any drone was involved at all as long as they could get away with it.

Perhaps twice. Maybe 4 or 5 times. But to do this with regularity would be a public relations nightmare.

Origanalist
02-08-2014, 02:24 PM
Perhaps twice. Maybe 4 or 5 times. But to do this with regularity would be a public relations nightmare.

After the first couple of times boobus would be begging them to use any measures they wanted to.

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 02:26 PM
Gunny stated that they will prosecute with a 4gw/5gw mentality, which translates into utilizing maximum force & lethality.

Emphasis mine.

No, actually, it really does not. "Maximum force and lethality" was SECOND generation warfare. Mass-on-mass warfare of attrition. We figured out that was a bad idea by WW1. THIRD generation warfare is called 'maneuver warfare' and it trades mass-attrition for maneuver, cutting in behind the enemy's supply lines and cutting off their fuel food and ammunition so they die on the vine. Significantly more effective than 2GW, but also not nearly as basically lethal. Mass attrition was no longer the goal. 4GW incorporates politics directly as a primary weapon of warfare such that you end up making the enemy do much of your work for you so that they handicap, hamper, and kill themselves leaving you to just stroll in and pick up the pieces and declare victory. 5GW uses religion as a primary weapon of war turning your enemies into crazed zealots against your other enemies so that they both kill each other off and you are the last man standing.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 02:30 PM
After the first couple of times boobus would be begging them to use any measures they wanted to.

even with these polls? Yes, Boobus is largely dumb, indifferent and devoid of core values, but it's not like like their favorite paternal organization hasn't been caught lying to them numerous times. I think any conflict would ultimately boil down to rural vs. urban as seen when the Soviet Union conducted it's consolidation over Eastern Europe. It would be protracted and extremely bloody on both sides, which would possibly lead to a secession of some type. A unification will never be in the cards however.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/166535/record-high-say-big-government-greatest-threat.aspx

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 02:32 PM
You're telling me that they're going to tell the residents that the terrorists got their hands on Apache attack helicopters and dispersed hellfire missiles into the neighborhood? Really? The whirling of rotor blades are pretty easy to distinguish, even for a mentally incapacitated servant like Boobus. And then there is the issue of portable handheld devices that can document every encounter. You can lie your ass off but there are significant obstacles at work that will destroy any such narrative. Are you going to eliminate 100s of witnesses who are adamant what they heard, saw and felt? I really hope this sort of braggadocio is being taught in our military intelligence schools. I welcome such naivete and arrogance.

You...really...don't know what 4GW is. Apache helicopters are 3GW flagships. Cameras and bought reporters are 4GW flagships.

They aren't going to hover a helicopter a quarter mile out and spray a city with missiles, they are going to hover a raptor 15 miles out at an altitude where you won't even see it with binoculars, and launch a hypersonic missile that nobody can detect until it explodes, and then blame the explosion on you.

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 02:35 PM
You're telling me that they're going to tell the residents that the terrorists got their hands on Apache attack helicopters and dispersed hellfire missiles into the neighborhood? Really? The whirling of rotor blades are pretty easy to distinguish, even for a mentally incapacitated servant like Boobus. And then there is the issue of portable handheld devices that can document every encounter. You can lie your ass off but there are significant obstacles at work that will destroy any such narrative. Are you going to eliminate 100s of witnesses who are adamant what they heard, saw and felt? I really hope this sort of braggadocio is being taught in our military intelligence schools. I welcome such naivete and arrogance.

Yes, because our generals know that the best way to win a war is to live within a meticulously constructed fantasy world :rolleyes:

Come on, you are reaching for straws to poison the well, because the facts of life I am bringing forward simply do not comport with your predetermined opinion on the matter.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 02:37 PM
You...really...don't know what 4GW is. Apache helicopters are 3GW flagships. Cameras and bought reporters are 4GW flagships.

They aren't going to hover a helicopter a quarter mile out and spray a city with missiles, they are going to hover a raptor 15 miles out at an altitude where you won't even see it with binoculars, and launch a hypersonic missile that nobody can detect until it explodes, and then blame the explosion on you.

I know exactly what 4GW means. It's the blurring of lines between the civilian handlers, enablers and the combatants. And you stated earlier that the countermeasures to such a threat would be:


People simply do not understand the kind of overwhelming force that would be brought to bear here. It will make Shock And Awe look like a small town fireworks display.

So hypersonic missiles (with starkly different blast and residue signatures to homemade ordinances) are going to be deployed throughout the countryside and blamed on the terrists?

Origanalist
02-08-2014, 02:40 PM
. And you stated earlier that the countermeasures to such a threat would be:

People simply do not understand the kind of overwhelming force that would be brought to bear here. It will make Shock And Awe look like a small town fireworks display.
---------------------------------------

Yes, AFTER they established the necessary conditions. What do you think all this stockpiling is for?

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 02:43 PM
I know exactly what 4GW means. It's the blurring of lines between the civilian handlers, enablers and the combatants. And you stated earlier that the countermeasures to such a threat would be:



So hypersonic missiles (with starkly different blast and residue signatures) are going to be deployed throughout the countryside and blamed on the terrists?

So, do you know the chemical composition and detonation characteristics of our latest Top Secret/SCI/NOFORN tactical antipersonnel missiles? Are they made of titanium or an evaporating composite? You keep speaking as though you have sure knowledge of things you clearly do not know, and then when caught out you just pretend like you knew all along. And all of this to justify a fallacious preconception that is not based on knowledge but emotion.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 02:44 PM
Yes, because our generals know that the best way to win a war is to live within a meticulously constructed fantasy world :rolleyes:

Come on, you are reaching for straws to poison the well, because the facts of life I am bringing forward simply do not comport with your predetermined opinion on the matter.

I respect the knowledge you have gained and accumulated, but to think that you consistently David Copperfield the populace with strikes of this high profile a nature is mind boggling.

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 02:46 PM
. And you stated earlier that the countermeasures to such a threat would be:

People simply do not understand the kind of overwhelming force that would be brought to bear here. It will make Shock And Awe look like a small town fireworks display.
---------------------------------------

Yes, AFTER they established the necessary conditions. What do you think all this stockpiling is for?

Indeed, not to mention an attack on rural compounds will take on a significantly different character than an attack on lone-wolfs inside an urban environment.

Bear in mind that the vast majority of such alleged freedom fighters will flee the urban centers in any case, and after a couple of attacks go down there will be enough base data to demonize them and so launch an all-out attack on a 'terrorist compound.' In which case they can bring to bear all the shock and awe they can muster as it will only feed into their established propaganda cycle.

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 02:47 PM
I respect the knowledge you have gained and accumulated, but to think that you consistently David Copperfield the populace with strikes of this high profile a nature is mind boggling.

Um. You do know that "David Copperfielding" a populace is a staple of war going all the way back to Caesar, right?

AuH20
02-08-2014, 02:56 PM
So, do you know the chemical composition and detonation characteristics of our latest Top Secret/SCI/NOFORN tactical antipersonnel missiles? Are they made of titanium or an evaporating composite? You keep speaking as though you have sure knowledge of things you clearly do not know, and then when caught out you just pretend like you knew all along. And all of this to justify a fallacious preconception that is not based on knowledge but emotion.

As well as being completely traceless and impervious to sensory perception? heh. And what about the vapor trail? The masters of reality complex is as illusive as the tactics being utilized.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 03:01 PM
Um. You do know that "David Copperfielding" a populace is a staple of war going all the way back to Caesar, right?

Not in this age given the huge technological jump afforded to the citizens. The residual footprint is far too large for many of these tactics, especially among those who can actually read as opposed to their ancestors.

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 03:10 PM
As well as being completely traceless and impervious to sensory perception? heh. And what about the vapor trail? The masters of reality complex is as illusive as the tactics being utilized.

aaaand how many people insist that the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile? You also apparently do not comprehend modern missile technology. Most tactical air to surface and surface to surface missiles today are designed to hit the target going straight down from above rather than laterally along the ground and hitting the side. You are talking about a missile travelling at Mach 4 + coming straight down onto a target after having cut it's engines off at 60,000 feet.

It's hard enough to see the vapor trail of a bullet when you are right behind it, but when you are perpendicular to it it's all but impossible, not to mention the huge distraction caused by the actual explosion.

Maybe one out of 1000 catch a glimpse of something suspicious, who is going to listen to the "lone nut?" Certainly nobody will capture anything on a camera, unless they have set up a 8000fps camera ahead of time somehow knowing there will be an attack in that spot, and then they will get a single frame if they are lucky. The odds against are astronomically inconceivable. It would be like capturing a bullet in mid-flight on a cellphone camera. It's just not going to happen.

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 03:12 PM
Not in this age given the huge technological jump afforded to the citizens. The residual footprint is far too large for many of these tactics, especially among those who can actually read as opposed to their ancestors.

LOL you are living in dream-land brother. :) For every one advance we get, the DOD gets 10; not to mention access to the expensive technologies that even Bill Gates shudders to consider purchasing.

Fredom101
02-08-2014, 03:21 PM
He heroically served his country. The people of Japan only had their freedom and security in WWII because of men like him.

He killed dozens of innocent people along the way. Is this okay by you? What if some of those people were your friends, or family? They were no threat to anyone in Japan, so your argument falls flat on its face.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 03:25 PM
LOL you are living in dream-land brother. :) For every one advance we get, the DOD gets 10; not to mention access to the expensive technologies that even Bill Gates shudders to consider purchasing.

I never said that civilian tech was on par with the otherworldly tech that comes from DARPA. I'm stating that there are far too many eyes in the sky & terrestrially to pull this off consistently. 5 or 6 times, probably. 20 or 30 times? No way. You then have to close down on the pilot community and a host of other loose ends. Our airspace in certain areas is incredibly congested. You don't think that the guy in a single engine Cessna is not going to report his harrowing encounter with a hypersonic missile, whether in it's perpendicular descent or ascent? I guess we can add the pilot community to the increasing list of nuts the government will be accumulating.

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 03:25 PM
He killed dozens of innocent people along the way. Is this okay by you? What if some of those people were your friends, or family? They were no threat to anyone in Japan, so your argument falls flat on its face.

http://glenbradley.net/share/funny/sarcmark.png

phill4paul
02-08-2014, 03:30 PM
Gunny's such a Debbie-Downer. :p

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 03:34 PM
I never said that civilian tech was on par with the tech that comes from DARPA. I'm stating that there are far too many eyes in the sky & terrestrially to pull this off consistently. You then have to close down on the pilot community and a host of other loose ends. You don't think that the guy in a single engine Cessna is not going to report his harrowing encounter with a hypersonic missile, whether in it's perpendicular descent or ascent? Our airspace in certain areas is incredibly congested.

Because DHS is going to totally neglect to account for air traffic when propaganda is their primary goal. Fighter/bomber pilots haven't willy-nilly released weapons since Korea, maybe in rare cases in Vietnam. Then clearances were issued from TAC centers on carriers or some Army FOB. Today, clearance largely goes up the chain to a dark little room full of generals with access to live sattelite imagery and air traffic data. There is some idiot-savant who talks like Rain-man whose sole purpose is to watch the ELINT and determine when to and when not to fire. This process will be doubled or quadrupled in the scenario we are discussing.

Off in Afghanistan, they don't really care if a drone strike hits a wedding, since the only people they have to keep happy are Americans back home. Here in America, they will pay a lot more attention to that stuff, being a primary precept of 4GW.

You think there is weakness where there is none. There is literally nothing more dangerous in combat than underestimating your enemy.

GunnyFreedom
02-08-2014, 03:44 PM
Gunny's such a Debbie-Downer. :p

LOL sometimes reality sucks eh?

It is possible, maybe even likely that the battle for America will eventually come to arms. I hope and pray not. The difference is that I know how truly horrible that would really be, so I am literally doing everything in my power to prevent that terrible outcome. I am also endeavoring to prepare people for the eventuality of such a war should it prove to be completely unavoidable. One of the most critically important things people need to get, is to not underestimate the enemy. There is no more certain or quick path to defeat than to underestimate the enemy. That's a fact.

phill4paul
02-08-2014, 03:46 PM
LOL sometimes reality sucks eh?

It is possible, maybe even likely that the battle for America will eventually come to arms. I hope and pray not. The difference is that I know how truly horrible that would really be, so I am literally doing everything in my power to prevent that terrible outcome. I am also endeavoring to prepare people for the eventuality of such a war should it prove to be completely unavoidable. One of the most critically important things people need to get, is to not underestimate the enemy. There is no more certain or quick path to defeat than to underestimate the enemy. That's a fact.

Indeed. I'm just praying that in the darkest hour there is a solar EMP. That, of course, is out of my hands.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 03:48 PM
Indeed. I'm just praying that in the darkest hour there is a solar EMP. That, of course, is out of my hands.

Even that wouldn't work. All these integrated systems are protected from EMP pulses. The only good thing is that it would create chaos in the interim. Fed gov's hands would be full.

AuH20
02-08-2014, 03:56 PM
Because DHS is going to totally neglect to account for air traffic when propaganda is their primary goal. Fighter/bomber pilots haven't willy-nilly released weapons since Korea, maybe in rare cases in Vietnam. Then clearances were issued from TAC centers on carriers or some Army FOB. Today, clearance largely goes up the chain to a dark little room full of generals with access to live sattelite imagery and air traffic data. There is some idiot-savant who talks like Rain-man whose sole purpose is to watch the ELINT and determine when to and when not to fire. This process will be doubled or quadrupled in the scenario we are discussing.

Off in Afghanistan, they don't really care if a drone strike hits a wedding, since the only people they have to keep happy are Americans back home. Here in America, they will pay a lot more attention to that stuff, being a primary precept of 4GW.

You think there is weakness where there is none. There is literally nothing more dangerous in combat than underestimating your enemy.

I never said I underestimated them. I stated in rather clear terms why they aren't omniscient and omnipotent. These are still men Gunny. NEVER FORGET THIS. They put their pants on one leg at a time. They can accidentally knick their chin & bleed while shaving.

phill4paul
02-08-2014, 04:05 PM
Even that wouldn't work. All these integrated systems are protected from EMP pulses. The only good thing is that it would create chaos in the interim. Fed gov's hands would be full.

The chaos is what you would hope for. Of course this is as hypothetical as it gets, astronomical really, made tongue in cheek.

timosman
01-02-2017, 06:51 PM
bump for CPUd

timosman
02-13-2017, 02:11 AM
bump for Ender

Ender
02-13-2017, 10:00 AM
bump for Ender

Ron Paul:


When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.

The most important element of a free society, where individual rights are held in the highest esteem, is the rejection of the initiation of violence.

Setting a good example is a far better way to spread ideals than through force of arms.

All initiation of force is a violation of someone else's rights, whether initiated by an individual or the state, for the benefit of an individual or group of individuals, even if it's supposed to be for the benefit of another individual or group of individuals.

Legitimate use of violence can only be that which is required in self-defense.l