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Rocco
01-16-2014, 12:41 PM
Recently, Iowa radio host Steve Deace published a 2016 electoral preview that was pretty critical of Rand Paul. Steve invited me to write a response column to his preview, and I think it covers pretty much all of the most important reasons that libertarians AND conservatives should support Rand Paul!

Here is the link to the Deace article I was responding to.

http://stevedeace.com/news/national-politics/you-say-you-want-a-revolution/


Here is the link to my response:

http://stevedeace.com/news/how-standing-with-rand-has-broadened-the-liberty-movement%E2%80%A8/





Recently Steve Deace, a man for whom I have tremendous respect and admiration, had some very poignant questions as to Rand Paul’s commitment to upholding liberty principles. As a person in the liberty movement who supported Ron Paul and now Stands with Rand with conviction that runs just as deep, I had some immediate thoughts on how to answer the questions posed.

Deace asks of the liberty movement “Is it a movement to advance a slate of issues/principles, or is it a movement intended to get Rand Paul elected the next president of the United States? The truth is if it’s the latter, that’s precisely how Rand will never win—as the civil rights and Religious Right movements of yesteryear can now attest. Once the acquisition of power replaces the mission the vision becomes compromised, and so does the movement.”



I would start by stating, unequivocally, that the liberty movement is not about one man nor has it ever been, despite how the media attempted to portray us as the “cult of Ron Paul” for so long. That being said, the greater point here is that advancing our most prominent champions political chances does not have to come at the expense of principle. There will always be the question of how much progress is enough, and that is a hotly debated topic in the liberty movement, but in every policy initiative Rand Paul has put forth he has called for a gain in liberty and not a reduction. The minute that changes, I am off board and so are most other libertarians. Does he moderate his rhetoric? Yes, but has he moderated his positions? No. The moderation of rhetoric gives me hope that Rand can broaden our reach, which brings us to Steve’s second question.

“While the movement is making inroads with younger voters, it has also shown it has electoral limitations in its current form. So how do you cast a wider net without betraying your first principles? What are the right hills to die on? Is this about building on Ron Paul’s legacy to expand it, or do you have to diminish Ron Paul’s legacy in order to mainstream it?”

I think this is the most important question for the liberty movement to answer, and I think that Rand’s responses to this have been nothing short of brilliant in 2013. For example, in the case of Rand Paul’s March filibuster we saw a bold, principled maneuver which caused a massive shift in public opinion and launched Rand to the national prominence he enjoys today. In a more recent example of this, Rand Paul’s economic freedom zone act (which include a 5 percent flat tax and suspension of Davis-Bacon wages among other things) has even won the support of the man Steve so appropriately refers to as Ditch McConnell. This has not been nearly as prominent in the eyes of the public as the filibuster, but it does represent a very important part of Rand Paul’s strategy, which is making liberty ideas attractive to opportunist politicians. I think anybody who looks at his record knows McConnell is not conservative enough to push for a plan as principled as Paul’s free market stimulus on its merits, so why does he do it? He does it because it is a huge success with the Republican base.

By using rhetoric that appeals to a wider audience Rand is actually making libertarian policy popular to non-libertarian politicians and voters. In Rand Paul’s crusade against NSA spying he has taken a program which once had overwhelming Republican support and (along with the fact that we have a Democrat president) turned it into something Republicans overwhelmingly oppose. This culminated in a vote to stop NSA spying that got the support of 94 Republicans and lost by only 12 votes. Almost everything Rand has done in the past year has made the libertarian position more attractive to Republicans, which will continue to grow our movement.



On the flip side, Rand has avoided some serious landmines that appeared tempting to engage in, but ultimately would not have benefited the movement. Though his voting record and public statements have consistently demonstrated he is personally in favor of defunding Obamacare, Rand consistently voiced that he did not want to shut down the government, which had major public opposition. Seeing the outcome of this shutdown deliver a major hit to the popularity of both the GOP and Ted Cruz made me glad that this was not the hill Rand chose to die on, as there are several examples of liberty issues (such as Audit the Fed) that have a high level of support and will broaden our movement. Picking our battles is indeed a huge question, and I would argue it’s the one Rand has done best with, of all the questions Steve asks.



Steve goes on to ask “Who are the movement’s shepherds? Is it a grassroots-led effort that speaks for itself, or is it in the name of “Paul” the movement lives and breathes? Since you need champions to advance your cause in our representative republic, and the movement really had no modern champion before Ron Paul, does the movement now take its cues top-down from his son as successor, or does the movement anoint and select its own champions? Is it an aristocracy or a meritocracy?”

I don’t think this is a situation where either Rand Paul is the successor to Ron Paul or the liberty movement anoints its own champions. The truth is that the liberty movement has anointed its own champions, and the leader of them is Rand Paul. I am not so naive as to believe that this has nothing to do with his last name, but being the only libertarian senator also makes Rand the most nationally recognizable libertarian in the country right now. He has used this influence to push a budget that balances in 5 years, cuts 4 departments, literally cuts the EPA in half, cuts corporate and personal income taxes to a 17 percent flat rate, repeals Obamacare and repeals Dodd-Frank. If that does not make you a champion of liberty, I do not know what does. The liberty movement is a meritocracy, and Rand Paul has demonstrated tremendous merit in his time as a senator.



Steve’s final question posed was “As a successor to his father’s throne, is Rand Paul another Reheboam or another Solomon?”. Now, I am not a Christian, so I am not too familiar with the bible, but the way I understand this is that Solomon was the son of King David who built the first temple in Jerusalem and Reheboam was the son of Solomon who caused a civil war between Israel and Judah. So the fundamental question behind the metaphor is “is Rand Paul building up the liberty movement, or is he splitting it apart?” I think that the answer to that question can be found in the explosive growth of Young Americans for Liberty (or YAL) and Campaign for Liberty, groups founded by Ron Paul and supported heavily by Rand Paul. YAL now has over 500 chapters on college campuses all over the country (compared to just 150 before Rand was elected), and has utilized Rand heavily as an instrument to promote their organization.

At CPAC 2013, Young Americans for Liberty may have been the most visible organization in attendance, handing out “Stand with Rand” signs and T-shirts for hours leading up to Rand’s speech. They were instrumental in his straw poll victory. Rand has also sent fundraising letters for YAL, spoken at their national convention twice and been at the heart of their organization for a long time. The relationship of Rand Paul and a pro-liberty group helping each other rise in stature has also existed with Campaign for Liberty, who have used Rand as a major source of funds on a myriad of issues. Rand has written enough emails for Campaign for Liberty to fill my inbox 10 times. In return, Campaign for Liberty uses their resources to advocate for many of the bills Rand has proposed.

Through this emphasis on movement building via promotion of these organizations, Rand Paul’s legacy is cemented. He could leave politics tomorrow forever and still have made a major impact on the liberty movement by helping these organizations grow into the large, well funded pro liberty groups they are today. Young Americans for Liberty has trained literally thousands of activists at becoming effective advocates for our ideas, and Campaign for Liberty is the major pro liberty group lobbying for our ideas in DC. Having them both grow as much as they have is nothing short of critical for our movement.



Have there been times when Rand has said something that I do not agree with? Yes. Has he misphrased things in interviews and caused it to appear he has contradicted himself? No doubt. Do these things concern me as someone who wants to see a united liberty movement defeat the establishment? Undoubtedly. But when you look at the things Rand has been questioned on, the common theme that arises is that he is always advocating a pro liberty position, even if he is taking a pragmatic approach towards advancing that issue. When the Snowden “few years in jail” controversy arose, it was in the midst of his NSA lawsuit. When the “thousands of exceptions” misstatement was made, it was because he was introducing the Life at Conception Act. When he said that an attack on Israel should be treated as an attack on the United States, he did so in a trip where he openly called to end foreign aid to Israel in Israel.

The point here is that Rand may have used moderate rhetoric at times, but at the end of the day the issues he is advocating for clearly demonstrate that his cause is liberty, and so long as that is the case, I will continue to Stand with Rand.



Rocco Lucente is the chairman of the Town of Ulysses GOP and a county coordinator of Campaign For Liberty in New York.

twomp
01-16-2014, 01:12 PM
In the whole scheme of things, it might not seem like one president can change things that much but let's be honest, how many of us would be here if Ron Paul didn't run for President the last 2 elections? The spotlight he got from running for President is what ignited our awesome little movement here.

Christian Liberty
01-16-2014, 01:19 PM
Good points by Deace, good response by you.

I'm not as worried about the amnesty thing as Deace, because I'm not fundamentally a pragmatist, and I think the questions of whether these people should be allowed to come here should be handled separately from whether they should be allowed to collect welfare or vote. But on the foreign policy front, Rand has definitely not followed his father's convictions, which bugs me. He's great on civil liberties (Well, except when he's saying Snowden should be sentenced, which he pretty much did despite the attempts of apologists... including some people I respect a lot, trying to say otherwise.) But on foreign policy, he's really not great. Which bugs me.

Christian Liberty
01-16-2014, 01:20 PM
In the whole scheme of things, it might not seem like one president can change things that much but let's be honest, how many of us would be here if Ron Paul didn't run for President the last 2 elections? The spotlight he got from running for President is what ignited our awesome little movement here.

Here's the thing though, it was Ron's PRINCIPLES that brought me here. And it did, I didn't agree with all of Ron's principles when I first heard about him in 2010. Rand, on the other hand, seems more interested in winning an election than he does about education, which is Deace's criticism, and mine.

whoisjohngalt
01-16-2014, 01:29 PM
Good points by Deace, good response by you.

I'm not as worried about the amnesty thing as Deace, because I'm not fundamentally a pragmatist, and I think the questions of whether these people should be allowed to come here should be handled separately from whether they should be allowed to collect welfare or vote. But on the foreign policy front, Rand has definitely not followed his father's convictions, which bugs me. He's great on civil liberties (Well, except when he's saying Snowden should be sentenced, which he pretty much did despite the attempts of apologists... including some people I respect a lot, trying to say otherwise.) But on foreign policy, he's really not great. Which bugs me.

Who is better on foreign policy that has been included in a single presidential poll?

Christian Liberty
01-16-2014, 01:33 PM
Who is better on foreign policy that has been included in a single presidential poll?

I don't think Ron Paul has been included on any of the polls but... probably nobody. If Rand wasn't running you guys would be saying the same thing about Ted Cruz... or a Democrat (Since the Democrats are usually better on foreign policy than Ted "Israel-First" Cruz). But Rand is still nowhere near Ron Paul caliber on foreign policy.

jtstellar
01-16-2014, 01:42 PM
that's not people's main concern..

they are occupied with going to the gym or making to their next class on time

cajuncocoa
01-16-2014, 01:43 PM
Who is better on foreign policy that has been included in a single presidential poll?It's not a question of whether anyone else is better. That's the whole "lesser between two evils" argument. I stopped playing that game a long time ago.

Before anyone jumps to the conclusion that I'm (OMG!!) bashing Rand with that statement, relax. I am not. It's meant as a general statement to be applied to all candidates equally.

whoisjohngalt
01-16-2014, 01:53 PM
It's not a question of whether anyone else is better. That's the whole "lesser between two evils" argument. I stopped playing that game a long time ago.

Before anyone jumps to the conclusion that I'm (OMG!!) bashing Rand with that statement, relax. I am not. It's meant as a general statement to be applied to all candidates equally.

It's not exactly the lesser of two evils argument. I knew someone would retort with that. The difference is that it's a personal matter of opinion when he crosses the line into becoming evil. More like the lesser of two goods, when comparing him to his father.

For me, anything that moves the football significantly closer to our goal line is the opposite of evil even if it's far from ideal. Maintaining the status quo or advocating even more intervention is when it crosses that threshold.

Christian Liberty
01-16-2014, 01:53 PM
that's not people's main concern..

they are occupied with going to the gym or making to their next class on time

I know, most people don't care. Which is our problem.

whoisjohngalt
01-16-2014, 01:55 PM
I don't think Ron Paul has been included on any of the polls but... probably nobody. If Rand wasn't running you guys would be saying the same thing about Ted Cruz... or a Democrat (Since the Democrats are usually better on foreign policy than Ted "Israel-First" Cruz). But Rand is still nowhere near Ron Paul caliber on foreign policy.

I'm not sure if you heard but Ron isn't running again. Please do not compare Ted Cruz to Rand on foreign policy. I'm extremely offended by that as someone who is represented and voted for Ted Cruz. We both know they aren't even on the same planet with regards to foreign policy. If Rand wasn't MUCH MUCH better than all the other options, I wouldn't be an apologist for him on the topic of foreign policy.

His speech at the Nixon institute blew me away. No matter how you feel about the man, it's tough to deny his political aptitude.

cajuncocoa
01-16-2014, 02:42 PM
It's not exactly the lesser of two evils argument. I knew someone would retort with that. The difference is that it's a personal matter of opinion when he crosses the line into becoming evil. More like the lesser of two goods, when comparing him to his father.

For me, anything that moves the football significantly closer to our goal line is the opposite of evil even if it's far from ideal. Maintaining the status quo or advocating even more intervention is when it crosses that threshold.I can live with that as an explanation. It's no contest between someone like Rand and Hillary. It gets a little murkier when it's between Romney and Obama, even if Romney would have been a little less bad than Obama. It wasn't enough to make me get up off the couch and vote for Mittens.

whoisjohngalt
01-16-2014, 03:19 PM
I can live with that as an explanation. It's no contest between someone like Rand and Hillary. It gets a little murkier when it's between Romney and Obama, even if Romney would have been a little less bad than Obama. It wasn't enough to make me get up off the couch and vote for Mittens.

Lol, my dad tried to convince me to vote for Romney using the lesser of two evils argument more than once. I told him I couldn't tell the damn difference. I was actively pulling for Obama. A GOP president would mean waiting 8 years before Rand could run, so the difference between the two would have had to outweigh the four year wait. Not even close.

TheTyke
01-16-2014, 03:59 PM
Great response! Thanks for making it.

Christian Liberty
01-16-2014, 04:36 PM
I can live with that as an explanation. It's no contest between someone like Rand and Hillary. It gets a little murkier when it's between Romney and Obama, even if Romney would have been a little less bad than Obama. It wasn't enough to make me get up off the couch and vote for Mittens.

I'd argue that Obama was less bad than Romney, based on what's going on with the Iranian sanctions right now. Romney would have gone in guns blazing.

I agree with his explanation though. I guess the thing is, though, we've got to really watch Rand and see if he's actually moving the football in our direction. The Iranian sanctions vote will substantially affect his perception either way, because if he votes for them while we are negotiating, he will be more hawkish on this than Obama and the Dems.

Christian Liberty
01-16-2014, 04:36 PM
Lol, my dad tried to convince me to vote for Romney using the lesser of two evils argument more than once. I told him I couldn't tell the damn difference. I was actively pulling for Obama. A GOP president would mean waiting 8 years before Rand could run, so the difference between the two would have had to outweigh the four year wait. Not even close.

I know why Rand supported Romney obviously, and I don't hold it against him. But I think its interesting that there's at least one poster here that actually did vote for Romney...

fisharmor
01-16-2014, 04:56 PM
Broadened...

The problem with broadening is that it becomes a mile wide and an inch deep.

What is it that Rand is out to do? I've seen him try to stop some nasty things from happening. But how is he pushing back?

What statements are there that equate to "Just come home", "End the Fed", or "Apply the Golden Rule"?

I'm not hating, I'm asking, in seriousness. If these statements of Rand's exist, I don't know of them.

Tywysog Cymru
01-16-2014, 05:05 PM
I think Rand Paul's heart is in the right place but he's not brave enough to make a more principled stand on certain issues.

klamath
01-16-2014, 05:41 PM
Broadened...

The problem with broadening is that it becomes a mile wide and an inch deep.

What is it that Rand is out to do? I've seen him try to stop some nasty things from happening. But how is he pushing back?

What statements are there that equate to "Just come home", "End the Fed", or "Apply the Golden Rule"?

I'm not hating, I'm asking, in seriousness. If these statements of Rand's exist, I don't know of them. The same question can be asked of Ron. What did he Ever accomplish? multiple failed attempts at higher office, thousands of no votes that as far as I know NEVER were the deciding factor in defeating any major horrible legislation. Did he educate? Did he educate enough to change things? Maybe if Rand is elected but then again maybe not even that if what the purests say is true of Rand.
So did we pay a congressman from texas millions over thirty years to make meaningless no votes and collect earmarks for his district? From what I hear around these forums the country is going to hell even faster so obviously his tax funded education career accomplished nothing.

twomp
01-16-2014, 05:51 PM
The same question can be asked of Ron. What did he Ever accomplish? multiple failed attempts at higher office, thousands of no votes that as far as I know NEVER were the deciding factor in defeating any major horrible legislation. Did he educate? Did he educate enough to change things? Maybe if Rand is elected but then again maybe not even that if what the purests say is true of Rand.
So did we pay a congressman from texas millions over thirty years to make meaningless no votes and collect earmarks for his district? From what I hear around these forums the country is going to hell even faster so obviously his tax funded education career accomplished nothing.

You're right Ron Paul did nothing for us. I guess Jeb Bush would do a better job?

klamath
01-16-2014, 06:34 PM
You're right Ron Paul did nothing for us. I guess Jeb Bush would do a better job?


What is it that Rand is out to do? I've seen him try to stop some nasty things from happening. But how is he pushing back?
In response to this.^
How did Ron push back. What did he accomplish?

Rocco
01-16-2014, 06:40 PM
I wouldn't say thats happened at all. In fact, Rand's policy proposals all move the ball radically in liberty's direction. Rand may not be an inch wide and 5 miles deep like Ron, but I'd say he's far more than "an inch deep" and the little bit of depth that he gives up ultimately serves to make those advancements possible beyond just theory.



Broadened...

The problem with broadening is that it becomes a mile wide and an inch deep.

What is it that Rand is out to do? I've seen him try to stop some nasty things from happening. But how is he pushing back?

What statements are there that equate to "Just come home", "End the Fed", or "Apply the Golden Rule"?

I'm not hating, I'm asking, in seriousness. If these statements of Rand's exist, I don't know of them.

georgiaboy
01-16-2014, 07:26 PM
Excellent points, Rocco! bump

Christian Liberty
01-16-2014, 07:41 PM
I'm not sure if you heard but Ron isn't running again.

I'm aware that this is almost certainly the case. So what?


Please do not compare Ted Cruz to Rand on foreign policy. I'm extremely offended by that as someone who is represented and voted for Ted Cruz. We both know they aren't even on the same planet with regards to foreign policy. If Rand wasn't MUCH MUCH better than all the other options, I wouldn't be an apologist for him on the topic of foreign policy.

Of course Rand is better than Cruz on foreign policy. That's not my point. My point is that the "least bad" option on foreign policy will always be defended. I don't know why Rand is appealing to neocons with the type of comments that were made in the email I posted recently.

His speech at the Nixon institute blew me away. No matter how you feel about the man, it's tough to deny his political aptitude.

Link?

Of course Rand has political aptitude. I wonder if he has too much of it.

Bastiat's The Law
01-16-2014, 07:50 PM
I don't think Ron Paul has been included on any of the polls but... probably nobody. If Rand wasn't running you guys would be saying the same thing about Ted Cruz... or a Democrat (Since the Democrats are usually better on foreign policy than Ted "Israel-First" Cruz). But Rand is still nowhere near Ron Paul caliber on foreign policy.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/CruxisAurion/timetostopposting.jpg

Brett85
01-16-2014, 07:58 PM
I don't know why Rand is appealing to neocons with the type of comments that were made in the email I posted recently.

He wasn't. Do you know what the term "neocon" actually means? It's not just a word that you throw around and give to anyone who doesn't support a 100% libertarian foreign policy.

Christian Liberty
01-16-2014, 08:02 PM
He wasn't. Do you know what the term "neocon" actually means? It's not just a word that you throw around and give to anyone who doesn't support a 100% libertarian foreign policy.

You're right about that. But... I don't understand why Rand will waste his time fighting for a guy who in all probability is a traitor to Pakistan, yet he won't fight for Edward Snowden.

(Disclaimer: I don't actually care if someone decides to betray Pakistan, but I don't see why its the job of the US President to get involved either.)

Christian Liberty
01-16-2014, 08:02 PM
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/CruxisAurion/timetostopposting.jpg

Says the guy who actually does support Ted Cruz...

Brett85
01-16-2014, 08:05 PM
You're right about that. But... I don't understand why Rand will waste his time fighting for a guy who in all probability is a traitor to Pakistan, yet he won't fight for Edward Snowden.

He's fighting to cut foreign aid and save taxpayers money, and presenting that message in a way that appeals to Republican voters.

Christian Liberty
01-16-2014, 08:43 PM
He's fighting to cut foreign aid and save taxpayers money, and presenting that message in a way that appeals to Republican voters.

Well... yeah... but are there any Republican voters who actually want to send money to Pakistan or Egypt? Its really Israel that they seem obsessed over.

jjdoyle
01-16-2014, 08:47 PM
He's fighting to cut foreign aid and save taxpayers money, and presenting that message in a way that appeals to Republican voters.

How so? If he is, shouldn't he be higher than 12% in a state like New Hampshire in some of these polls? I mean, for all the work he is supposedly doing that is working, he is polling less than what RP got in New Hampshire in 2012?

mz10
01-17-2014, 07:02 AM
Deace is judging Rand by teocon standards. To people like him, calling someone "pro-amnesty" is like calling someone Satan incarnate. He seems to not realize that the liberty movement doesn't have the same nativist streak that the teocon wing does.

whoisjohngalt
01-17-2014, 08:09 AM
He wasn't. Do you know what the term "neocon" actually means? It's not just a word that you throw around and give to anyone who doesn't support a 100% libertarian foreign policy.

Ron & Rand : us :: McCain, Graham, King, and Kristol : neocon

Bastiat's The Law
01-17-2014, 03:45 PM
Deace is judging Rand by teocon standards. To people like him, calling someone "pro-amnesty" is like calling someone Satan incarnate. He seems to not realize that the liberty movement doesn't have the same nativist streak that the teocon wing does.

Deace is one of the few political commentators that I actually value for his insight. That being said, Deace isn't always correct in his judgment. He endorsed arguably the biggest progressive on the stage in 2012 primary: Newt Gingrich

Christian Liberty
01-17-2014, 03:49 PM
Deace is judging Rand by teocon standards. To people like him, calling someone "pro-amnesty" is like calling someone Satan incarnate. He seems to not realize that the liberty movement doesn't have the same nativist streak that the teocon wing does.

I don't, but I still don't think people should be able to come over from another country and take welfare benefits: or to vote against our constitution. I don't think immigrants should be allowed to vote or collect welfare (Ultimately I think both welfare and voting should be abolished, but one thing at a time.)

fisharmor
01-17-2014, 04:05 PM
The same question can be asked of Ron. What did he Ever accomplish? multiple failed attempts at higher office, thousands of no votes that as far as I know NEVER were the deciding factor in defeating any major horrible legislation. Did he educate? Did he educate enough to change things? Maybe if Rand is elected but then again maybe not even that if what the purests say is true of Rand.
So did we pay a congressman from texas millions over thirty years to make meaningless no votes and collect earmarks for his district? From what I hear around these forums the country is going to hell even faster so obviously his tax funded education career accomplished nothing.

I think it's clear from my post that I was not asking what Rand actually would accomplish.
I asked - again, I thought clearly - what sweeping statements Rand has made.
When has he stated unequivocally that all troops should come home?
When has he stated without flinching that we should close all our overseas bases?
When has he made no equivocation about ending central banking in the US?

And again, I thought I was clear, but apparently not - I am not being a smartass. If these statements exist, I want to know.
I do not know of their existence, so if they do exist, please tell me.

philipped
01-17-2014, 10:41 PM
I remember the other piece in this section where this guy was talking about Rand. I think that Rand is building the numbers, but he also is making it clear to y'all in this forum, and everyone else, HE IS NOT HIS FATHER. Rand wants libertarianism MAINSTREAM but to do so,he must first blend it with a double shot of conservatism.

I just hope that we can start hearing them talking about underestimating him and seeing him turn the liberty movement into something in the same level of national relevancy as the Tea Party (with obviously better perception). Go Rand! Go!