Marriott CEO: We Need Immigrants To Staff Our Hotels

[AuH20]

Pleading for what amounts to be Corporate Welfare. Since when it is our civic responsibility to insure that Marriott maintains a healthy profit margin?

http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20140113152453-239587237-congress-should-keep-this-resolution?published=t


Those of us in the travel industry are watching closely. We know practical immigration reform in America is good for our industry. The U.S. must do a better job welcoming international guests, who are traveling outside their home countries in unprecedented numbers. If the U.S. had the same share of global travel it had in 2000, the U.S. would be welcoming roughly 35 million visitors every year. We estimate that would create one million more jobs in the U.S. As unemployment inches downward, we also need a functioning immigration system that helps us staff positions that might otherwise go unfilled, especially in our seasonal resorts. Our sector is already one of the bright spots in the economy – we’ve seen 14 consecutive quarters of job growth. Just imagine how much brighter it would be with these changes.

[kathy88]

How many Americans are unemployed again?

[Warlord]

How many Americans are unemployed again?

Boobus doesn't want to work in a hotel

[AuH20]

Boobus doesn't want to work in a hotel

Boobus wants comfort and pleasure provided by the extortion system created by Uncle Sam.

[oyarde]

I never use a Marriott , I will say this , that is an honest CEO .

[Travlyr]

Boobus wants comfort and pleasure provided by the extortion system created by Uncle Sam.

$8700 per month please.

Jesse Jackson Jr. $8700/mo disability. (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?441563-Jesse-Jackson-Jr-to-Grab-8-700-Per-Month-in-Disability-Plus-Pension-In-Prison)

[belian78]

Boobus wants comfort and pleasure provided by the extortion system created by Uncle Sam.
I used to think that this was just a talking point, but now I can't help but see it's true. A majority of the populace would be just fine getting a gov check twice a month if it allowed them to keep their internet/cellphone/cable tv going every month.

[AuH20]

I used to think that this was just a talking point, but now I can't help but see it's true. A majority of the populace would be just fine getting a gov check twice a month if it allowed them to keep their internet/cellphone/cable tv going every month.

And they could care less how many teeth and bones are cracked in order to extract the plunder.

[belian78]

And they could care less how many teeth and bones are cracked in order to extract the plunder.
Because it's not happening to them.

[AuH20]

Because it's not happening to them.

That's largely why spontaneous, mass pain is the only way out of this. This slow, deliberate crawl will kill us all one by one.

[HOLLYWOOD]

How many Americans are unemployed again?http://theblacksphere.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Untitled-610x306.jpg

[Brian4Liberty]

Recession, depression, low labor participation, high unemployment, high under-employment, record food stamp roles, record welfare roles, record debt.

We need more immigration right now! :rolleyes:

[Brian4Liberty]

Pleading for what amounts to be Corporate Welfare. Since when it is our civic responsibility to insure that Marriott maintains a healthy profit margin?


Food stamps and Obamacare, just two of the many ways to lower their labor costs (via your pocket).

[oyarde]

Recession, depression, low labor participation, high unemployment, high under-employment, record food stamp roles, record welfare roles, record debt.

We need more immigration right now! :rolleyes:

That sums it up .

[compromise]

Pleading for what amounts to be Corporate Welfare. Since when it is our civic responsibility to insure that Marriott maintains a healthy profit margin?

http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20140113152453-239587237-congress-should-keep-this-resolution?published=t

It is our responsibility to support a move towards a free labor market. The best option at the moment would be a temporary work visa program.

[Philhelm]

I used to think that this was just a talking point, but now I can't help but see it's true. A majority of the populace would be just fine getting a gov check twice a month if it allowed them to keep their internet/cellphone/cable tv going every month.

I think this is exaggerated. I had been unemployed a few years ago, with a degree, sending applications to even the shitty jobs like Wal-Mart, just to get some sort of income until finding something better. I didn't get any response from these applications. I have an Anglo-name, I wasn't too old or too young, no criminal history, and I was even a veteran (which means fascist Americans are supposed to lick my asshole in a delicate swirling motion), but it was difficult to get back on the horse. I can only imagine that there are many other frustrated people out there, especially the younger folks who were fed a line of shit about college only to discover that their futures have been sold out to the Nth generation.

[Danke]

(which means fascist Americans are supposed to lick my asshole in a delicate swirling motion),

I just wanted to quote that.

[Brian4Liberty]

It is our responsibility to support a move towards a free labor market. The best option at the moment would be a temporary work visa program.


Recession, depression, low labor participation, high unemployment, high under-employment, record food stamp roles, record welfare roles, record debt.

Speak for yourself. Some of us use common sense when determining what to "support".

Supporting this nonsense is not supporting a "free labor market". This is massive government corporatism and favoritism, embedded in 10,000 pages of unreadable legislation. And it is in direct opposition to all of the problems that I listed. It will make all of them worse. We should surrender on nearly everything that is important so we can falsely claim "free labor market" victory? Count me out.

What happened to ending the welfare state as a prerequisite for open borders?

And this applies to other issues too.

I will not celebrate a "victory" against taxation because Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Jamie Dimon and other oligarchs pay low or zero taxes.
I will not celebrate a "victory" for gun rights because the Police (or private security) can carry and use every weapon ever invented.
I will not celebrate a "victory" on bloated government because Paul Ryan's budget cuts a billion dollars ten years from now.
I will not celebrate a "victory" on illegal NSA activities because some politician promises they will be good in the future.

[otherone]

Boobus doesn't want to work in a hotel

Boobus will take free money instead of working for it. This includes corporaboobus as well.
The problem is price-fixing labor for the underclass. Similarly, the feudal system wasn't threatened until the Black Plague wiped out half the peasants, who realized they were a commodity and revolted. Eliminate welfare and the minimum wage, and we might start to see competition for employees in the retail and hospitality industries. Not long ago, it wasn't unusual to see middle-class Americans making a career working in sales in a department store. My father-in-law supported a family of five selling appliances at Sears.

[Warlord]

Boobus will take free money instead of working for it. This includes corporaboobus as well.
The problem is price-fixing labor for the underclass. Similarly, the feudal system wasn't threatened until the Black Plague wiped out half the peasants, who realized they were a commodity and revolted. Eliminate welfare and the minimum wage, and we might start to see competition for employees in the retail and hospitality industries. Not long ago, it wasn't unusual to see middle-class Americans making a career working in sales in a department store. My father-in-law supported a family of five selling appliances at Sears.

The Fed is also a culprit lowering the standard of living.

[JustinTime]

Speak for yourself. Some of us use common sense when determining what to "support".

Supporting this nonsense is not supporting a "free labor market". This is massive government corporatism and favoritism, embedded in 10,000 pages of unreadable legislation. And it is in direct opposition to all of the problems that I listed. It will make all of them worse. We should surrender on nearly everything that is important so we can falsely claim "free labor market" victory? Count me out.


I don't know if this is true, but Ive heard tell that if given amnesty illegals will be exempted from Obamacare. US citizens of course must be "cared for" under the expensive and confusing new law.

If that's the case, the proposed amnesty/immigration reform legislation would be anything from a free labor market, its burdens some people with requirements that make them damn near unemployable.

So, if this passes, Boobus might just have to take the gubmint cheese, he has no other option.

[Brian4Liberty]

Similarly, the feudal system wasn't threatened until the Black Plague wiped out half the peasants, who realized they were a commodity and revolted.

Bingo! We have a winner! The feudal system ended, and the Renaissance began. The value of the individual grew. The worth of the individual grew. Liberty grew. The economies grew.

And inversely, the more that the labor supply outstrips demand, the less value each individual has, and the less liberty. The feudal system can return.

[surf]

The U.S. must do a better job welcoming international guests, who are traveling outside their home countries in unprecedented numbers. If the U.S. had the same share of global travel it had in 2000, the U.S. would be welcoming roughly 35 million visitors every year. We estimate that would create one million more jobs in the U.S.
gotta give the guy some props for this, don't you?

[Brian4Liberty]

gotta give the guy some props for this, don't you?

For misdirection?

Nothing in this whole amnesty and immigration debate is about changing travel or tourism visas. The only thing that has been done to limit vacation travelers to the US is for us to become a less desirable vacation spot. People from other nations fear violence in the US (from thugs of all types). Some don't like our politics and wars. We are competing on a global scale for tourism. Who wants to go to Chicago or Detroit when they can go to Fiji or the Caribbean? That's what has hindered tourism.

[ZENemy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uklF7VtqJq8

[eduardo89]

It is our responsibility to support a move towards a free labor market. The best option at the moment would be a temporary work visa program.

I agree, the current 65,000 cap on H-1B visas is absolutely absurd.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Food stamps and Obamacare, just two of the many ways to lower their labor costs (via your pocket).I call it "The 3%ers" Corporatist Organizations like GE(General Electric) and GM (General Motors) paid an effective tax rate of 3% year after year after year. The BIG 3, GM, Ford, and Chrysler were given Billions and Billions each to meet "so-called" CAFE standards... all it was, was more corporate welfare for the Fascist partnership. But it got worse... the executives didn't spend it on mileage/emissions, they did their usual money switching, moving around the numbers, then on a spending spree of corp. buying back stock, to drive up the price for their own options cash'in windfall. Then when the whole thing collapses, the Washington DC prostitutes bailed out the same racketeers and stuck the debt/losses on the people. Washington DC sold off the GM stock holdings recently, who still owed the taxpayers $10 Billion(besides given all the tax credits, welfare write-offs, .gov purchases, etc), yet GM just announced they're first paying a 30 cent dividend. Racketeering

ObamaCare? ...you betcha this was conjure-up to lower the costs to campaign donors corporations. I keep thinking of those White House tapes, in which John Ehrlichman and Nixon aborted the HMO cafeteria line crap. The writing is on the wall, the standard of living will continue to decline for the Private Sector and major portions of the country... Government will continue to steal, reward their cozy partnerships, and the .gov sector will continue to thrive like the Roman Empire.

Cody Willard gets it... and Rupert Murdoch/Roger Ailes canned him... drawing too much attention to the real corporate-Fascist game being played.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjA7tT9vmMw

[Brian4Liberty]

I agree, the current 65,000 cap on H-1B visas is absolutely absurd.

"No visa for you!"

http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/screencrush.com/files/2012/04/soup-nazi.jpg

;)

[oyarde]

I think this is exaggerated. I had been unemployed a few years ago, with a degree, sending applications to even the shitty jobs like Wal-Mart, just to get some sort of income until finding something better. I didn't get any response from these applications. I have an Anglo-name, I wasn't too old or too young, no criminal history, and I was even a veteran (which means fascist Americans are supposed to lick my asshole in a delicate swirling motion), but it was difficult to get back on the horse. I can only imagine that there are many other frustrated people out there, especially the younger folks who were fed a line of shit about college only to discover that their futures have been sold out to the Nth generation.

Yeah , but if I owned a business , I would hire you and I am not even a fascist.....

[oyarde]

I agree, the current 65,000 cap on H-1B visas is absolutely absurd.

I would issue only one , that would be for you .

[oyarde]

I just wanted to quote that.

Nah , yeah , really , could have skipped that part .....

[Feeding the Abscess]

Removing government restrictions on who people can hire is corporate welfare? Eliminating government spending and power on border control is statist?

Might want to rethink that one, guys.

[MRK]

I think this is exaggerated. I had been unemployed a few years ago, with a degree, sending applications to even the shitty jobs like Wal-Mart, just to get some sort of income until finding something better. I didn't get any response from these applications. I have an Anglo-name, I wasn't too old or too young, no criminal history, and I was even a veteran (which means fascist Americans are supposed to lick my asshole in a delicate swirling motion), but it was difficult to get back on the horse. I can only imagine that there are many other frustrated people out there, especially the younger folks who were fed a line of shit about college only to discover that their futures have been sold out to the Nth generation.

No kidding.

I know an anglo, mid-twenties woman who has worked in the hotel industry for 5 years with management experience the last two, and would love to get a job at marriot. But they require more experience than she has. She doesn't have a degree although she's taking night classes to get one, but I'm not sure having one would necessarily even help her.

Mariott is like the Google or Goldman Sachs of the Hotel Industry. I'm sure it would be easy to find Americans trying to get one of those jobs. But of course, equally qualified immigrants will probably accept less pay to do so. I'm not sure the quality of work would be the same though.

[MRK]

Removing government restrictions on who people can hire is corporate welfare? Eliminating government spending and power on border control is statist?

Might want to rethink that one, guys.

I also think the borders should be opened completely for both commerce and people. Immigration is always a net positive. Arguing against the benefits of immigration is like arguing against the benefits of the free market exchange of goods - the argument succeeds only in specific, contrived situations, and only temporarily until the inevitable counterpoint is produced.

[DamianTV]

Can I has a Visa too? To leave this shithole?

[MRK]

Can I has a Visa too? To leave this shithole?

The Philippines, Cambodia, Vietnam all come to mind with easy visa programs for foreigners, allowing you to pretty much stay indefinitely (although in the Philippines I hear you have to do a border run every 18 months now). In Cambodia your regular visitor visa gives you the clearance to freely work, too. However in the Philippines and Vietnam they'll probably never even know if you're working unless you're a business owner with a building. Unfortunately, the local languages are rather difficult to learn, although there are plenty of English-speaking expat communities to get you by.

Last time I checked, foreign earned income in The Philippines is NOT taxed even while a resident there, which is a pretty big bonus if you have remote income. Keep in mind you have to pay US income taxes, unless you stay out of the US for 330 days of the calendar year & earn less than (100k + cost of housing up to 30k)/per year.

Also, many more countries open up if you have a recurring income like a social security check, are retired, or buy land/invest in the country for a retirement/business visa, etc.

Obviously, you can work and have residence in just about any country if you can convince an employer there to get you an employment visa.

I can give no guarantees that any of these places are not shitholes in themselves, however. In fact, I would say it's often likely a person would be better off in BFE America. It depends on the person of course, and sometimes a change in perspective opens up new possibilities when returning to the US.

[torchbearer]

Pleading for what amounts to be Corporate Welfare. Since when it is our civic responsibility to insure that Marriott maintains a healthy profit margin?

http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20140113152453-239587237-congress-should-keep-this-resolution?published=t

Found some classified listings for farm hands, you better apply for it or some 'illegal' may get hired.
here are some details:
Job Order Number: 475502
Job Title: Farmworker
Job Duration: Over 150 Days
Type of Job: Seasonal
Full or Part Time: Full Time (30 Hours or More)
Job Position(s): 3
Date Job Order Created/Updated: 1/15/2014 2:18:00 PM
Last Day Job Order Available Online: 08/12/2014
Source: Preferred Employer
Site: HiRE
Is this a Green Job? Yes
Occupation Information

Other Matching Jobs: View other jobs available for Farmworkers and Laborers, Crop
Other Related Jobs: View other jobs available for occupations related to Farmworkers and Laborers, Crop
Job Distribution: View the distribution of jobs for Farmworkers and Laborers, Crop
Supply and Demand: View the competition for Farmworkers and Laborers, Crop
Future Employment Outlook: View the employment and future employment outlook for Farmworkers and Laborers, Crop
Career Ladder: See occupations that Farmworkers and Laborers, Crop move to
Other Employers: View the largest local employers of Farmworkers and Laborers, Crop
Employer Information

Employer Name: Suppressed
Company Size: 5-9
Type of Employer: Private Sector
Work Site Information

City & State: Cheneyville, LA
Public Transportation Accessible: No
Worksite Industry (NAICS): Confidential Information
City & State: Cheneyville, LA
best way to apply is to show up at cheneyville coop ready to work.

[Origanalist]

Boobus will take free money instead of working for it. This includes corporaboobus as well.
The problem is price-fixing labor for the underclass. Similarly, the feudal system wasn't threatened until the Black Plague wiped out half the peasants, who realized they were a commodity and revolted. Eliminate welfare and the minimum wage, and we might start to see competition for employees in the retail and hospitality industries. Not long ago, it wasn't unusual to see middle-class Americans making a career working in sales in a department store. My father-in-law supported a family of five selling appliances at Sears.

So what we really need, is a Black Plague. Not more immigration.

[belian78]

I think this is exaggerated. I had been unemployed a few years ago, with a degree, sending applications to even the shitty jobs like Wal-Mart, just to get some sort of income until finding something better. I didn't get any response from these applications. I have an Anglo-name, I wasn't too old or too young, no criminal history, and I was even a veteran (which means fascist Americans are supposed to lick my asshole in a delicate swirling motion), but it was difficult to get back on the horse. I can only imagine that there are many other frustrated people out there, especially the younger folks who were fed a line of shit about college only to discover that their futures have been sold out to the Nth generation.
I'm not saying that there's not a shortage of jobs, there definitely is. However, there are jobs out there to be had, folks who are already on state assistance won't take them though, because they already have their comforts provided for by state money.

[otherone]

So what we really need, is a Black Plague. Not more immigration.

lol.
Imagine if there was a minimum wage in the Middle Ages. Even with the plague killing half the workforce, traveling from Sir Kohl's to Lord Kmart would garner you the same wages. Anachronism or not, is there any wonder why po' folks prefer Bread and Circuses?

[otherone]

So what we really need, is a Black Plague. Not more immigration.

What' the free market solution?
If Marriott can't find enough folks to clean their toilets for minimum wage, then they should increase their compensation to attract more workers, right?
Or, if you're a big enough corporation, you get a place on K Street and beg the government for more Mexicans?
Any economists here?

[pcosmar]

So what we really need, is a Black Plague. Not more immigration.

Do not suggest things already in planning. :(

[Origanalist]

What' the free market solution?
If Marriott can't find enough folks to clean their toilets for minimum wage, then they should increase their compensation to attract more workers, right?
Or, if you're a big enough corporation, you get a place on K Street and beg the government for more Mexicans?
Any economists here?

End welfare. (and the federal reserve)

[pcosmar]

Does anyone really know the reality of this crap.

Had a neighbor in the Keys that imported Polish workers for hotels.
They packed them in rooms,, and paid them jack shit.. And took a % of their earnings to pay for their Room and travel/permits.

The folks were essentially kept as slaves for the hotels.

The current Immigration Reform legislation is little about Reform,, and much about pushing a National Biometric ID.

[oyarde]

Found some classified listings for farm hands, you better apply for it or some 'illegal' may get hired.
here are some details:
Job Order Number: 475502
Job Title: Farmworker
Job Duration: Over 150 Days
Type of Job: Seasonal
Full or Part Time: Full Time (30 Hours or More)
Job Position(s): 3
Date Job Order Created/Updated: 1/15/2014 2:18:00 PM
Last Day Job Order Available Online: 08/12/2014
Source: Preferred Employer
Site: HiRE
Is this a Green Job? Yes
Occupation Information

Other Matching Jobs: View other jobs available for Farmworkers and Laborers, Crop
Other Related Jobs: View other jobs available for occupations related to Farmworkers and Laborers, Crop
Job Distribution: View the distribution of jobs for Farmworkers and Laborers, Crop
Supply and Demand: View the competition for Farmworkers and Laborers, Crop
Future Employment Outlook: View the employment and future employment outlook for Farmworkers and Laborers, Crop
Career Ladder: See occupations that Farmworkers and Laborers, Crop move to
Other Employers: View the largest local employers of Farmworkers and Laborers, Crop
Employer Information

Employer Name: Suppressed
Company Size: 5-9
Type of Employer: Private Sector
Work Site Information

City & State: Cheneyville, LA
Public Transportation Accessible: No
Worksite Industry (NAICS): Confidential Information
City & State: Cheneyville, LA
best way to apply is to show up at cheneyville coop ready to work.

Company name supressed , but it is a " green" job , sweet .

[HOLLYWOOD]

Mariotts needs immigrants? LOL! I know it has been covered on this forum, a year after year, covering news stories of 1000s lining-up for jobs at a new hotel. e.g., a new hotel went in downtown LA a year or so ago, approximately 10,000 job seekers lined up for city blocks for those hotel jobs; Maids, Bellhops, Clerks, maintenance...

BTW, if the economy is so recovered, then why did the Washington DC and the Communist in the White House initiate new funds in the billions to Democratic cities with his "Promise Zones" crap? Even before partisan aiding liberal democratic regions around the country, Detroit alone, has received 2 FED packages totally $370 million in AID last year, now they'll receive even more with stolen taxpayer monies... yet we need more immigrants for this "Booming Economy"? :rolleyes:

[AuH20]

What' the free market solution?
If Marriott can't find enough folks to clean their toilets for minimum wage, then they should increase their compensation to attract more workers, right?
Or, if you're a big enough corporation, you get a place on K Street and beg the government for more Mexicans?
Any economists here?

Marriott isn't dumb. They are quite aware that this particular worker demographic provides them with a competitive advantage in terms of less employee services to pay for, when speaking of the significant offsets found with state supplied healthcare, SNAP, etc. It's a race to the bottom thanks to the government's manipulation of the free market.

[pcosmar]

What' the free market solution?


Having a Free Market.

There is none.

[AuH20]

Having a Free Market.

There is none.

In a truly free market, both worker A and worker B would be on relatively the same playing field but that is not the case. In modern day America, wealth is extracted from a particular segment of society to alleviate the lifestyle disadvantages of worker A. In turn, worker A is more inclined to work for less and for less fringe benefits. The agriculture industry is filled with these cases. Typically, a farmhand is burnt out and discarded by his 40s onto federal disability and other taxpayer subisidized programs, while the former employer walks away laughing.

[torchbearer]

Company name supressed , but it is a " green" job , sweet .

company name is a Person, so they suppress it.
you will know who it is when they contact you.
most likely a Vanderlick or Bain... big sugar cane farmers.

They try to hire local... but high school kids have better things to do, welfare pay adults way more for no work.
so Pedro and Paco show up and make $10 an hour working the furrows.

I did this kind of work as a young teen and thru high school. its not fun.

someone hard up for work, and hate illegals... i will give you a reference for this job listing.
you can find the listing yourself under cheneyville https://www.louisianaworks.net/hire/vosnet/Default.aspx
Job Order Number: 475502 (there are other farm hand listings, but i grew up near cheneyville and know most of the families, so my reference will help)

[gwax23]

Does anyone really know the reality of this crap.

Had a neighbor in the Keys that imported Polish workers for hotels.
They packed them in rooms,, and paid them jack shit.. And took a % of their earnings to pay for their Room and travel/permits.

The folks were essentially kept as slaves for the hotels.

The current Immigration Reform legislation is little about Reform,, and much about pushing a National Biometric ID.

Maybe bad conditions from your perspective but from theirs it was clearly their best alternative. Who are you to deny that to them? You sound like a bleeding heart leftist.

[gwax23]

In a truly free market, both worker A and worker B would be on relatively the same playing field but that is not the case. In modern day America, wealth is extracted from a particular segment of society to alleviate the lifestyle disadvantages of worker A. In turn, worker A is more inclined to work for less and for less fringe benefits. The agriculture industry is filled with these cases. Typically, a farmhand is burnt out and discarded by his 40s onto federal disability and other taxpayer subisidized programs, while the former employer walks away laughing.

There is no "set" amount of wealth in society that needs to be distributed equally among people. Wealth is created every day. Immigrants dont steal jobs they create jobs and more competition. This entire thread is full of so much economic illiteracy its going to make me puke.

When did it become a crime or "unamerican: for a poor person in another country to come here and work a legitimate job? Unless your a native american all your ancestors did the same thing, at a time when we had no immigration laws (pre 1920's)

[gwax23]

What' the free market solution?
If Marriott can't find enough folks to clean their toilets for minimum wage, then they should increase their compensation to attract more workers, right?
Or, if you're a big enough corporation, you get a place on K Street and beg the government for more Mexicans?
Any economists here?

They CAN find workers to work minimum or even less than minimum, the only problem is the government is making it very difficult to hire said people because they are not born here, or because they are young/inexperience/poor/minority etc etc.

[gwax23]

I also think the borders should be opened completely for both commerce and people. Immigration is always a net positive. Arguing against the benefits of immigration is like arguing against the benefits of the free market exchange of goods - the argument succeeds only in specific, contrived situations, and only temporarily until the inevitable counterpoint is produced.


Removing government restrictions on who people can hire is corporate welfare? Eliminating government spending and power on border control is statist?

Might want to rethink that one, guys.


Best things ive read in this thread

[Brian4Liberty]

Can I has a Visa too? To leave this shithole?

Tourism visa? Sure. Permanent immigration to another nation? Most won't take you, but if they did, they would make sure that you are truly a valuable asset, and not just a cheap warm body or future welfare recipient.

[AuH20]

There is no "set" amount of wealth in society that needs to be distributed equally among people. Wealth is created every day. Immigrants dont steal jobs they create jobs and more competition. This entire thread is full of so much economic illiteracy its going to make me puke.

When did it become a crime or "unamerican: for a poor person in another country to come here and work a legitimate job? Unless your a native american all your ancestors did the same thing, at a time when we had no immigration laws (pre 1920's)

You're making it about the immigrants when it is the tax & spend system that has distorted the price of labor for decades. I'm 100% in favor of cutting off the supply so we can get closer to a free market. Stop allowing the government subsidiaries to bask in the status quo of selective privileges.

Ultimately, who cares about cheap lettuce when your federal & state taxes shoot up to the moon thanks to cost overruns in terms of social services? It's simply bait and switch for shrewd employers, while the serfs eventually pay for the legacy costs of "cheap" labor. To paraphrase Milton Friedman, society has a weighty decision to make in that it's either the generous welfare system or open borders, but it cannot have both. They are mutually incompatible at the long end of the curve.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C52TlPCVDio

[pcosmar]

Maybe bad conditions from your perspective but from theirs it was clearly their best alternative. Who are you to deny that to them? You sound like a bleeding heart leftist.

For some,,it may be better.. It is still indentured servitude (slavery). and some do escape..(good for them)

but this thread is directly related to "Immigration Reform" which is currently before the lawmakers.
And like so many issues it is misleading on several levels.

This one is about pushing through a National ID.
Oh,, and I have been seeing this "Immigration Reform" bullshit for 40 years..

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/12/20/Jeb-Bush-Declares-Immigration-Reform-Will-Pass-in-14-More-Foreign-Workers-Healthy-for-Economy
http://www.cfr.org/immigration/us-immigration-policy/p20030

Look for the Biometric Identification in this bullshit.
That is what it is about.

[oyarde]

company name is a Person, so they suppress it.
you will know who it is when they contact you.
most likely a Vanderlick or Bain... big sugar cane farmers.

They try to hire local... but high school kids have better things to do, welfare pay adults way more for no work.
so Pedro and Paco show up and make $10 an hour working the furrows.

I did this kind of work as a young teen and thru high school. its not fun.

someone hard up for work, and hate illegals... i will give you a reference for this job listing.
you can find the listing yourself under cheneyville https://www.louisianaworks.net/hire/vosnet/Default.aspx
Job Order Number: 475502 (there are other farm hand listings, but i grew up near cheneyville and know most of the families, so my reference will help)

If I was a young kid I would be elated to get $10 an hour.Thats three gallons of gas , I was 17 before I got a job where I could earn three gallons of gas or more for an hour . I hit the jackpot when I found a $5.85 an hour job, time and a half for a half day Sat too :)

[torchbearer]

If I was a young kid I would be elated to get $10 an hour.Thats three gallons of gas , I was 17 before I got a job where I could earn three gallons of gas or more for an hour . I hit the jackpot when I found a $5.85 an hour job, time and a half for a half day Sat too :)

we didn't get $10/hr when i was doing this work as a kid, i got $5/hr. still not bad.

[gwax23]

You're making it about the immigrants when it is the tax & spend system that has distorted the price of labor for decades. I'm 100% in favor of cutting off the supply so we can get closer to a free market. Stop allowing the government subsidiaries to bask in the status quo of selective privileges.

Ultimately, who cares about cheap lettuce when your federal & state taxes shoot up to the moon thanks to cost overruns in terms of social services? It's simply bait and switch for shrewd employers, while the serfs eventually pay for the legacy costs of "cheap" labor. To paraphrase Milton Friedman, society has a weighty decision to make in that it's either the generous welfare system or open borders, but it cannot have both. They are mutually incompatible at the long end of the curve.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C52TlPCVDio

Cutting off the supply of what? Labor? Or big government? Of course Im for the later but not the former. In fact restricting the supply of labor through restrictive immigration policies is by its very nature anti free market and big government.

You also are presenting a situation that its either cheaper consumer goods or higher taxes.....When in fact we can have cheaper consumer goods through a free market and a unhindered labor market all the while having a small and limited government.

Without a welfare state there are no legitimate economic arguments against immigration. It boils down to racism at that point.

[Philhelm]

I'm not saying that there's not a shortage of jobs, there definitely is. However, there are jobs out there to be had, folks who are already on state assistance won't take them though, because they already have their comforts provided for by state money.

I agree that there are many Americans that would live that lifestlye, but I think the number of people looking to live on the dole is exaggerated. The government has an invested interest in selling the line that immigrants only take jobs that Americans won't. And while I'm sure most of the newer college graduates not finding employment in their intended field would hate to take the lesser jobs, I also don't think they would be too keen on becoming welfare queens as the money provided isn't enough to maintain the middle class lifestyle (although I'd daresay that there are exceptions to this in especially egregious cases).

[AuH20]

Cutting off the supply of what? Labor? Or big government? Of course Im for the later but not the former. In fact restricting the supply of labor through restrictive immigration policies is by its very nature anti free market and big government.

You also are presenting a situation that its either cheaper consumer goods or higher taxes.....When in fact we can have cheaper consumer goods through a free market and a unhindered labor market all the while having a small and limited government.

Without a welfare state there are no legitimate economic arguments against immigration. It boils down to racism at that point.

I speculate that without a generous welfare state supplementing a particular lifestyle, this country would attract and hold onto the most earnest immigrants, regardless of ethnicity. However, once that filter was removed, chaos ensued. Remember that the borders were relatively open before the substantial ramp-up of the welfare state seen in the 1960s.

[pcosmar]

All the talk in this thread about "Free Market" and "Ending Welfare" are fantasy . Pure fantasy with no relevance to the real world.

This is about pushing a mandatory National ID. And the bullshit story about the poor Hotel Owners is nothing but sales pitch.

Biometric Database

Immigration Reform is a Trojan horse.

[Cutlerzzz]

What' the free market solution?


Allowing the free movement of labor.

[JustinTime]

Allowing the free movement of labor.

Don't we have a few things to do prior to that? Like ending the welfare state? Cant do that you say? Well tough shit about the amnesty I guess.

But theres a lot of other BS in the so-called Immigration Reform Bill, as pcosmar has been pointing out, the little part of biometric ID for us all, and something I discussed earlier, that the newly legalized workers wont be "covered" under Obamacare burdensome regs, while American citizens will be making us far more expensive to employ.

[Feeding the Abscess]

Don't we have a few things to do prior to that? Like ending the welfare state? Cant do that you say? Well tough shit about the amnesty I guess.

Don't we have a few things to do prior to that? Like ending our overseas adventurism and scaling back the military? Can't do that you say? Well tough shit about your privacy I guess.


But theres a lot of other BS in the so-called Immigration Reform Bill, as pcosmar has been pointing out, the little part of biometric ID for us all, and something I discussed earlier, that the newly legalized workers wont be "covered" under Obamacare burdensome regs, while American citizens will be making us far more expensive to employ.

Not a single person arguing for open borders wants biometric IDs, employer mandates, or anything else. Ironically, it's those who clamor for larger government in the form of border control that are more likely to bring about biometric IDs, employer regulations, and so forth.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Hey, the US Economy is just booming along!

Intel Corporation just announced laying off 5,000 and not opening Fab 42 Plant.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101346414

HP adds another 5,000 jobs to layoff plan for 34,000 total
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57616384-92/hp-adds-another-5000-jobs-to-layoff-plan-for-34000-total/

[Brian4Liberty]

Hey, the US Economy is just booming along!

Intel Corporation just announced laying off 5,000 and not opening Fab 42 Plant.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101346414

HP adds another 5,000 jobs to layoff plan for 34,000 total
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57616384-92/hp-adds-another-5000-jobs-to-layoff-plan-for-34000-total/

And at the same time, they are still pushing for the corporatist "comprehensive slave trade" reform.

[Ender]

There is no "set" amount of wealth in society that needs to be distributed equally among people. Wealth is created every day. Immigrants dont steal jobs they create jobs and more competition. This entire thread is full of so much economic illiteracy its going to make me puke.

When did it become a crime or "unamerican: for a poor person in another country to come here and work a legitimate job? Unless your a native american all your ancestors did the same thing, at a time when we had no immigration laws (pre 1920's)

Spot on.

This is called FREE MARKET and has always increased and bettered the economy.

Also- and I have said this in other posts- I had been living in a high economy tourist area until just recently. About 25% of the population is hispanic because they are the ONLY ones who apply for the service industry jobs. And they were all hired at a standard wage. With the exception of a few Filipinos, all maids and maintenance jobs are filled by Mexicans because no one else will apply. One In-Home health service could not get anyone to apply for the many jobs available and finally went to some of the housekeeping services to find help.

In this rich community, the immigrants really do take the jobs that no one else wants. This is the truth of the matter.

Period.

[fr33]

I'd rather pay cash to what they call an illegal immigrant for the work they do than pay wages, insurance, and unemployement to a "legal citizen".

If I can get out of paying payroll taxes, even better.

[Brian4Liberty]

I'd rather pay cash to what they call an illegal immigrant for the work they do than pay wages, insurance, and unemployement to a "legal citizen".

If I can get out of paying payroll taxes, even better.

Amen to that. Government screwing up everything.

[Brian4Liberty]

In this rich community, the immigrants really do take the jobs that no one else wants. This is the truth of the matter.


Sounds like a great economic zone. What is the unemployment rate there? How many people on food stamps and welfare?

[Ender]

Sounds like a great economic zone. What is the unemployment rate there? How many people on food stamps and welfare?

About zero- very wealthy area.

[puppetmaster]

Removing government restrictions on who people can hire is corporate welfare? Eliminating government spending and power on border control is statist?

Might want to rethink that one, guys.

Fact is an open border with our current regulatory and welfare/tax structure would be the death knell of our country, our freedom, and our way of life. These issues must be resolved before we should even consider the libertarian utopian idea of border less country's.

[Origanalist]

Fact is an open border with our current regulatory and welfare/tax structure would be the death knell of our country, our freedom, and our way of life. These issues must be resolved before we should even consider the libertarian utopian idea of border less country's.

Bingo, you can't have a free market under these conditions. This is lunacy.

[Cutlerzzz]

Fact is an open border with our current regulatory and welfare/tax structure would be the death knell of our country, our freedom, and our way of life. These issues must be resolved before we should even consider the libertarian utopian idea of border less country's.

The death knell of the country or the death knell of our government when it goes bankrupt?

Americans do enough to take away our freedom-people like you telling someone who can or can't live here at gun point if need be for example.

[MRK]

Fact is an open border with our current regulatory and welfare/tax structure would be the death knell of our country, our freedom, and our way of life. These issues must be resolved before we should even consider the libertarian utopian idea of border less country's.

So if the 'country' (regime) were to die, and along with it its 'freedom' and its 'way of life' that result in our "current regulatory and welfare/tax structure" were to die as well... would I be mistaken to believe that that would be a good thing?

[Demigod]

Does anyone really know the reality of this crap.

Had a neighbor in the Keys that imported Polish workers for hotels.
They packed them in rooms,, and paid them jack shit.. And took a % of their earnings to pay for their Room and travel/permits.

The folks were essentially kept as slaves for the hotels.

The current Immigration Reform legislation is little about Reform,, and much about pushing a National Biometric ID.

That is work and travel ,every student goes now. You go in June paycheck is usually 7,50 to 10 dollars although if you have luck you can get 11-12 + free housing in some places like national parks in Montana or Yacht clubs .You work for 3 months and then you have a month to travel around but most decide to work 2 jobs for 3 and a half months and bring back a thousand + euros back.

And they are not slaves they can quit anytime they want and find other jobs or apartments ,many quit their first jobs in the first few weeks.It is a rather popular way to make money and go on a vacation some go to America some go to tourist centers in Europe where they get to be on a vacation for 2 months + go back home with some extra cash.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

...and I was even a veteran (which means fascist Americans are supposed to lick my asshole in a delicate swirling motion),...


I just wanted to quote that.


Five minutes after I read it and I'm still laughing. Heh heh.

[puppetmaster]

So if the 'country' (regime) were to die, and along with it its 'freedom' and its 'way of life' that result in our "current regulatory and welfare/tax structure" were to die as well... would I be mistaken to believe that that would be a good thing?

If we have open borders I see our current oppressive tyrannical government getting even stronger.
It must die first if we are ever to remain free in this country.

[puppetmaster]

The death knell of the country or the death knell of our government when it goes bankrupt?

Americans do enough to take away our freedom-people like you telling someone who can or can't live here at gun point if need be for example.

Do you think freedom will grow for Americans if the borders are opened ? You kid yourself I you think our regime will collapse due to an influx of immigrants. They will just become more controlling

People like me. You know nothing about me.....

[otherone]

Americans do enough to take away our freedom-people like you telling someone who can or can't live here at gun point if need be for example.

I agree. Live and let live. Not my business who lives here until somebody shoves a gun in my face, his hand in my wallet, and extracts MY FAMILY'S HARD-EARNED CASH to pay for entitlements for fucking Marriott employees because fucking Marriott is paying their toilet cleaners fucking minimum wage. Fuck Marriott, Fuck their bottom line, Fuck the corporate-controlled "regulators" who make starting a competing business next to impossible, Fuck this corporate oligarchy this Fucking country has become.

[otherone]

In this rich community, the immigrants really do take the jobs that no one else wants. This is the truth of the matter.

Period.

Here's some more truth for you...


(AP) MIAMI - The U.S. is locking up more illegal immigrants than ever, generating lucrative profits for the nation's largest prison companies, and an Associated Press review shows the businesses have spent tens of millions of dollars lobbying lawmakers and contributing to campaigns.

The cost to American taxpayers is on track to top $2 billion for this year, and the companies are expecting their biggest cut of that yet in the next few years with government plans for new facilities to house the 400,000 immigrants detained annually.

After a decade of expansion, the sprawling private system is largely controlled by just three companies.

....more (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ap-private-prisons-profit-from-illegal-immigrants/)

[puppetmaster]

I agree. Live and let live. Not my business who lives here until somebody shoves a gun in my face, his hand in my wallet, and extracts MY FAMILY'S HARD-EARNED CASH to pay for entitlements for fucking Marriott employees because fucking Marriott is paying their toilet cleaners fucking minimum wage. Fuck Marriott, Fuck their bottom line, Fuck the corporate-controlled "regulators" who make starting a competing business next to impossible, Fuck this corporate oligarchy this Fucking country has become.

Bravo.

[AuH20]

I agree. Live and let live. Not my business who lives here until somebody shoves a gun in my face, his hand in my wallet, and extracts MY FAMILY'S HARD-EARNED CASH to pay for entitlements for fucking Marriott employees because fucking Marriott is paying their toilet cleaners fucking minimum wage. Fuck Marriott, Fuck their bottom line, Fuck the corporate-controlled "regulators" who make starting a competing business next to impossible, Fuck this corporate oligarchy this Fucking country has become.

The corporations are rigging the system in plain sight.

http://breakingbrown.com/2013/10/mcdonalds-encourages-minimum-wage-employees-to-get-food-stamps-and-medicaid/


Even though McDonalds_strike McDonald’s has steadfastly withstood pressure to increase the minimum wage for its workers, it has no problem directing its workers to the federal troth so they can make ends meet.

A group which supports higher wages for fast food employees shared an audio recording of a conversation between a McDonald’s employee and a worker at the company’s worker assistance hotline. During the call, the McResources operator tells the employee that she should apply for food stamps and Medicaid in order to care for her family.


According to Forbes, fast food chains outsource labor costs to the tune of $7 billion dollars per year to taxpayers.

Who here is tired paying for the corporations? I am. They can take their cheap labor and stick it where... Maybe just maybe if these corps weren't making profits from these approved loopholes, they would be pushing for greater economic freedom for all. We would have less regulation, taxes and oversight if EVERYONE was feeling the pain as opposed to a select group of bodies to feed off of.

[gwax23]

You all sound like a bunch of Occupy Wall Street loons with a mix of xenophobia.

The ones your paying entitlements to through your taxes is not Juanita scrubbing toilets at the Marriott....its the lazy American Citizens who qualify for welfare and dont want to work because of it.

But please continue to scapegoat an entire community collectively because you dont want to admit its your American neighbors who are screwing you over and not the immigrants or businesses that hire immigrants.

[otherone]

The ones your paying entitlements to through your taxes is not Juanita scrubbing toilets at the Marriott....its the lazy American Citizens who qualify for welfare and dont want to work because of it.




It's the entitlements that are the problem, not Juanita or "lazy citizens". The topic at hand is about immigrants, gwax.

[AuH20]

You all sound like a bunch of Occupy Wall Street loons with a mix of xenophobia.

The ones your paying entitlements to through your taxes is not Juanita scrubbing toilets at the Marriott....its the lazy American Citizens who qualify for welfare and dont want to work because of it.

But please continue to scapegoat an entire community collectively because you dont want to admit its your American neighbors who are screwing you over and not the immigrants or businesses that hire immigrants.

But unfortunately we can't deport our greedy neighbors. Adding more dependents to the tyranny of the ever-growing majority is insanity.You don't fight the federal monolith by adding dependents so the federal government has an even greater excuse to knock down your door for their protection money. This is common sense.

[gwax23]

But unfortunately we can't deport our greedy neighbors. Adding more dependents to the tyranny of the ever-growing majority is insanity.You don't fight the federal monolith by adding dependents so the federal government has an even greater excuse to knock down your door for their protection money.

Our welfare state is going to implode regardless of immigrants. Frankly if immigrants over bload the system then even better since itll come crashing down faster.

If we cut off all immigrants and began a massive deportation campaign the likes of which the world has never seen, it would cost us farrrr more (both in monetary and non monetary form) then to simply keep them here and let them work.

Further even if they all disappeared tomorrow their jobs would probably disappear with them as Americans would refuse to work at those rates and businesses wouldnt be able to hire at those rates without severe price increases. Then everyone loses, the immigrants who lost their jobs and the Americans who lost the affordable services those jobs provided.

AMERICA!!!


It's the entitlements that are the problem, not Juanita or "lazy citizens". The topic at hand is about immigrants, gwax.

Maybe you should read my posts again...

[Cutlerzzz]

Do you think freedom will grow for Americans if the borders are opened ? You kid yourself I you think our regime will collapse due to an influx of immigrants. They will just become more controlling

People like me. You know nothing about me.....

Yes, allowing people to move freely will increase freedom. Regulating it and restricting it further will decrease freedom.

I know plenty about you. You are a utilitarian willing to give the government more power and control, enforcing it with violence, in order to "remain free". You have said several times that we're "free" and just need more government to protect our freedom.

[Cutlerzzz]

Our welfare state is going to implode regardless of immigrants. Frankly if immigrants over bload the system then even better since itll come crashing down faster.

If we cut off all immigrants and began a massive deportation campaign the likes of which the world has never seen, it would cost us farrrr more (both in monetary and non monetary form) then to simply keep them here and let them work.

Further even if they all disappeared tomorrow their jobs would probably disappear with them as Americans would refuse to work at those rates and businesses wouldnt be able to hire at those rates without severe price increases. Then everyone loses, the immigrants who lost their jobs and the Americans who lost the affordable services those jobs provided.

AMERICA!!!



Maybe you should read my posts again...

Think of all the 'Merican jobs it would create if the government created an agency with enough size, resources, and weapons to hunt down and deport 12 million illegals, then create another agency with enough size and weapons to prevent anyone from crossing the US-Mexican border?

[gwax23]

Think of all the 'Merican jobs it would create if the government created an agency with enough size, resources, and weapons to hunt down and deport 12 million illegals, then create another agency with enough size and weapons to prevent anyone from crossing the US-Mexican border?

Government jobs dont = private jobs. A "job" created by the government could be 2 or more jobs lost in the private sector. The later are real production and wealth the former is theft from one to be given to another.

[Cutlerzzz]

Government jobs dont = private jobs. A "job" created by the government could be 2 or more jobs lost in the private sector. The later are real production and wealth the former is theft from one to be given to another.

Yeah, but those private sector jobs don't get to protect our freedom by deporting people at gun point.

[gwax23]

Yeah, but those private sector jobs don't get to protect our freedom by deporting people at gun point.

True. We need the government to protect our freedom. Because you know...corporations...errr...mexicans...all that stuff.

[otherone]

The later are real production and wealth the former is theft from one to be given to another.

You're against theft? Now you're starting to sound like us "occupy xenophobes".

[gwax23]

You're against theft? Now you're starting to sound like us "occupy xenophobes".


What did the immigrants steal from you? Please tell me Ill hire a lawyer on your behalf.

[AuH20]

What did the immigrants steal from you? Please tell me Ill hire a lawyer on your behalf.

They are part of the increasing mob. A welfare state encourages a mob to come as opposed to the individual. Like I said before, if we had no tax driven welfare state, we wouldn't need ICE. People would come and go if they couldn't hack it. Their political motivations would be different as well.

[otherone]

What did the immigrants steal from you? Please tell me Ill hire a lawyer on your behalf.

You need to put away your uncalibrated racist detector. You pay taxes, buddy?

[gwax23]

They are part of the increasing mob. A welfare state encourages a mob to come as opposed to the individual. Like I said before, if we had no tax driven welfare state, we wouldn't need ICE. People would come and go if they couldn't hack it. Their political motivations would be different as well.

Look at scandanavia. They had hardly no immigration until fairly recently and they are some of the biggest socialist states in the world. Same could be said for most of Europe whos immigration phenomenon is recent and started well after their welfare states began.

Your trying to create some corelation between immigration and big government when it simply doesnt exist. We had open borders until the 1920s and we where the freest country in the world by far.

But honestly I think Immigration and naturalization should be handled by the states. States can determine immigration laws/policy and they can create their own naturalization process for state citizenship. Once its no longer a federal issue things will improve. (I still believe ideally in open borders but devolution is the next best step in this issue)


You need to put away your uncalibrated racist detector. You pay taxes, buddy?

You need to answer questions and stop posting one line dribble with no substance. Heres another one where did your ancestors come from??

[otherone]

You need to answer questions and stop posting one line dribble with no substance. Heres another one where did your ancestors come from??


I love immigrants. I believe in open borders. I also believe taxation is theft. Do you?

[gwax23]

I love immigrants. I believe in open borders. I also believe taxation is theft. Do you?

Yes....

[pcosmar]

This has little to do with immigration,,
That is a Red Herring..


and many are falling for the bait being trolled by a Government partner. (Corporate partnership)

This is a push (once again) for a Biometric Database,, and a National (soon to be World) ID.

And they will keep bring it back until they get it.

[erowe1]

Government jobs dont = private jobs. A "job" created by the government could be 2 or more jobs lost in the private sector. The later are real production and wealth the former is theft from one to be given to another.

I think Cutlerzzz was being sarcastic. I hope so anyway.

[gwax23]

I think Cutlerzzz was being sarcastic. I hope so anyway.

He was. I was partly playing along but also hoping that some others on the thread would read it and learn something.

[Cutlerzzz]

I think Cutlerzzz was being sarcastic. I hope so anyway.

Very sarcastic.

[JustinTime]

Don't we have a few things to do prior to that? Like ending our overseas adventurism and scaling back the military? Can't do that you say? Well tough shit about your privacy I guess.

No, I didn't say.


Not a single person arguing for open borders wants biometric IDs, employer mandates, or anything else. Ironically, it's those who clamor for larger government in the form of border control that are more likely to bring about biometric IDs, employer regulations, and so forth.

The people who wrote the current proposals before Congress want all that, and more probably. Now please, lets be realistic, anyone with any sense must oppose the ideas before Congress for now.

You can dream about life in Fantasy Land later.

[JustinTime]

This has little to do with immigration,,
That is a Red Herring..


and many are falling for the bait being trolled by a Government partner. (Corporate partnership)

This is a push (once again) for a Biometric Database,, and a National (soon to be World) ID.

And they will keep bring it back until they get it.

Sadly, people just ignore all that. They get caught up in well intentioned idealism, which is commendable, but they lose sight of whats right in front of their faces.

People think "Ooo, free movement of people, yay!" when in fact whats being proposed is anything but. In fact, its actually more government control over movement of people, not less.

[alucard13mm]

I believe in strong border.. otherwise we might as well form the North American Union.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

I believe in strong border.. otherwise we might as well form the North American Union.

I believe in a free market, but you're more than welcome to pay the government to determine who I can and can't interact with out of your own pocket.

[gwax23]

How about a middle ground decision?

States get to decide immigration and naturalization policy. Take Immigration/Naturalization out of the federal domain and decentralize it to the state level.

[pcosmar]

Sadly, people just ignore all that. They get caught up in well intentioned idealism, which is commendable, but they lose sight of whats right in front of their faces.

People think "Ooo, free movement of people, yay!" when in fact whats being proposed is anything but. In fact, its actually more government control over movement of people, not less.

Well,, I could give a shit about Immigration. We have plenty coming through legal means already,, and I don't give a damn about "illegal immigration".

Welfare is not going away.. much as I would like it to. That is a simple reality. It will be here till the economy crashes,, and then the World Bank will take it over.
I don't expect the Corporate/Government corruption to end either.
They are too firmly entrenched.

Real ID,, and Biometric Database has been delayed. It is opposed by most,, and has been soundly defeated several times.
They are pushing that shit again.

And they will get it eventually,, either by apathy or by stealth. (like this crap)

I oppose it and will resist it at every point that it is presented.

[Southron]

Look at scandanavia. They had hardly no immigration until fairly recently and they are some of the biggest socialist states in the world. Same could be said for most of Europe whos immigration phenomenon is recent and started well after their welfare states began.

Your trying to create some corelation between immigration and big government when it simply doesnt exist. We had open borders until the 1920s and we where the freest country in the world by far.

I don't think it's unrealistic to expect that a country that absorbs massive amounts of immigrants to eventually start to look more like the country of origin, politically. We owe our founding political thought to our English forefathers. I doubt any document like the Constitution would have been created had the colonies been founded by Germany.

[otherone]

We had open borders until the 1920s and we where the freest country in the world by far.




http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ip3h_Sb-QYs/T8zpCLOJtmI/AAAAAAAAIYs/VxsUtLav9Ro/s1600/slaves-taken%2Bfrom%2BAfrica.jpg

[gwax23]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ip3h_Sb-QYs/T8zpCLOJtmI/AAAAAAAAIYs/VxsUtLav9Ro/s1600/slaves-taken%2Bfrom%2BAfrica.jpg

The more you post the more you show yourself to be an absolute moron. You havent posted one constructive thing in this thread.

Now I await for your explanation on how open borders = slavery...

Though since youve refused to answer anything and only continue to spat nonsense I doubt Ill hear even a semi intelligent response from you.

[otherone]

The more you post the more you show yourself to be an absolute moron. You havent posted one constructive thing in this thread.

Now I await for your explanation on how open borders = slavery...

Though since youve refused to answer anything and only continue to spat nonsense I doubt Ill hear even a semi intelligent response from you.

My apologies. In what way were we "the freest country in the world" prior to 1920? And by the way, comparing immigration prior to the welfare state with now is asinine. And what have I refused to answer? Where my ancestors came from? Is that in any way relevant? I've stated that I'm pro-immigrant and pro-open borders. But your assertion that undocumented immigrants aren't a burden on the welfare state is silly.

[gwax23]

My apologies. In what way were we "the freest country in the world" prior to 1920? And by the way, comparing immigration prior to the welfare state with now is asinine. And what have I refused to answer? Where my ancestors came from? Is that in any way relevant? I've stated that I'm pro-immigrant and pro-open borders. But your assertion that undocumented immigrants aren't a burden on the welfare state is silly.

Name a country that was freer during the time frame. Its a comparison it doesnt mean it was perfect.

I said specifically that they are a burden and its a good thing because it will bring down the welfare state faster. That and ignoring that many american citizens abuse the system far more and refuse to work.

If your so open borders and immigration why have you been constantly going after me... Compared to the other nonsense on this thread. Clearly your priorities arent straight.

[otherone]

If your so open borders and immigration why have you been constantly going after me... Compared to the other nonsense on this thread. Clearly your priorities arent straight.

I'm not "going after" you. I'm also not the one who is so quick to make this debate personal. You've implied that those who disagree with you are racists (post 86). My point has been, and will continue to be, that policy isn't passed in this country without someone profiting by it. Be it Marriott or McDonalds, our country is controlled by corporate interests. I posted a link earlier in this thread about how immigration affects the for-profit prison industry. We have the highest incarceration rate in the WORLD. You think that industry is licking it's chops over more potential meal tickets? What way do you think their lobby money is going?

[gwax23]

I'm not "going after" you. I'm also not the one who is so quick to make this debate personal. You've implied that those who disagree with you are racists (post 86). My point has been, and will continue to be, that policy isn't passed in this country without someone profiting by it. Be it Marriott or McDonalds, our country is controlled by corporate interests. I posted a link earlier in this thread about how immigration affects the for-profit prison industry. We have the highest incarceration rate in the WORLD. You think that industry is licking it's chops over more potential meal tickets? What way do you think their lobby money is going?

Your going off on a tangent.

First post 86 wasnt directed at you. But yes I was insinuating that some of the people on this thread who are against immigration are xenophobic. Because once you clear the economic myths of immigration (there are many) it boils down to little more than prejudice.

Who cares that Mariott would benefit from more open immigration?? As it has already been explained a 1000 times, so would everyone else. Economics isnt a zero sum game. The tone of your posts seem very anti business and ranting on about corporations. How can you claim to be a supporter of free markets but some how find it repugnant that an organization would favor something like open borders (which you claim to support) Theres nothing inherently wrong with corporations. They are simply a business structure. Modern economies depend on limited liability to function.

I didnt make the debate personal. In fact I never addressed you to begin with. You assumed my original comment was in reference to you.

[Brian4Liberty]

But yes I was insinuating that some of the people on this thread who are against immigration are xenophobic. Because once you clear the economic myths of immigration (there are many) it boils down to little more than prejudice.


Lol. Yeah, keep throwing out the xenophobia and racism smears. And everyone who disagrees with Obama on anything is a racist too, right? :rolleyes:

Is that the way you usually try to shut people down? Are you Rachel Maddow or Chris Matthews?

[otherone]

The tone of your posts seem very anti business and ranting on about corporations. How can you claim to be a supporter of free markets but some how find it repugnant that an organization would favor something like open borders (which you claim to support) Theres nothing inherently wrong with corporations. They are simply a business structure. Modern economies depend on limited liability to function.



Are you being deliberately obtuse? Corporations, immigrants, you, and anyone else can do whatever the fuck you want AS LONG AS MONEY IS NOT STOLEN FROM ME TO PAY FOR IT.

[otherone]

Your going off on a tangent.



LOL.
Did you read the op?

[Ender]

I don't think it's unrealistic to expect that a country that absorbs massive amounts of immigrants to eventually start to look more like the country of origin, politically. We owe our founding political thought to our English forefathers. I doubt any document like the Constitution would have been created had the colonies been founded by Germany.

True, the Constitution would not have been written in Germany.

We owe the founding political thought to the Indians, because the Constitution is based on the Iroquois Confederation of Peace

[gwax23]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Corporations, immigrants, you, and anyone else can do whatever the fuck you want AS LONG AS MONEY IS NOT STOLEN FROM ME TO PAY FOR IT.

Then stop ranting on about them like a loon. You keep attacking Marriot and other corporations then when I call you out on it you say your not.



Lol. Yeah, keep throwing out the xenophobia and racism smears. And everyone who disagrees with Obama on anything is a racist too, right? :rolleyes:

Is that the way you usually try to shut people down? Are you Rachel Maddow or Chris Matthews?

So whats your opposition to immigration then? Why should the government restrict it in either a true free market or what we have now? I have yet to hear my economic argument refuted....besides incoherent rantings about corporations.


LOL.
Did you read the op?

Yea and hes wrong. Asking for freer migration policies is not Welfare.

[fr33]

There's an extreme lack of understanding of the concepts of freedom and private property on this forum.

When I hire someone their lack of government papers is a positive. The fact that they don't feel entitled to cite labor laws is another positive.

I have no use for a 9 to 5 "citizen". We've had some "citizens" that aren't like that but they are few and far between.

Give me a Mexican that works sunup to sundown like I do and shove your immigration laws up your arse.

[otherone]

Then stop ranting on about them like a loon. You keep attacking Marriot and other corporations then when I call you out on it you say your not.


I say "It's not my business who Marriott hires as long as I'm not supplementing their income with my tax dollars", and you accuse me of being an anti-corporate racist. About right? :rolleyes:

[puppetmaster]

You all sound like a bunch of Occupy Wall Street loons with a mix of xenophobia.

The ones your paying entitlements to through your taxes is not Juanita scrubbing toilets at the Marriott....its the lazy American Citizens who qualify for welfare and dont want to work because of it.

But please continue to scapegoat an entire community collectively because you dont want to admit its your American neighbors who are screwing you over and not the immigrants or businesses that hire immigrants.

Tell you what smart guy, why dont you take time from your life and actually go down to your lacal welfare office. I have seen mine a few times and even talked to an employee friend of mine and the number of non US citizens getting benefits in our local office is equal or greater than those lazy Americans. These are verified numbers so your assumption is BS. It is obvious that you have not even attempted to seriously investigate. I would not be surprised if us tax payers pay your paycheck also based on your positions here.

[gwax23]

I say "It's not my business who Marriott hires as long as I'm not supplementing their income with my tax dollars", and you accuse me of being an anti-corporate racist. About right? :rolleyes:

How would you be supplementing their income? and Show me where I called you a racist? And yes I do think your anti corporations based on all your ridiculous posts in this thread which you constantly back track from or claim mean some different yatta yatta yatta.


Tell you what smart guy, why dont you take time from your life and actually go down to your lacal welfare office. I have seen mine a few times and even talked to an employee friend of mine and the number of non US citizens getting benefits in our local office is equal or greater than those lazy Americans. These are verified numbers so your assumption is BS. It is obvious that you have not even attempted to seriously investigate. I would not be surprised if us tax payers pay your paycheck also based on your positions here.

What verified numbers? You havent given me any numbers except "what your buddy told you." Verified my ass.

[gwax23]

Couple of facts that should be pointed out:

- The Social Security Administration estimates that half to three-quarters of undocumented immigrants pay federal, state and local taxes, including $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security taxes for benefits they will never get. All immigrants pay taxes whether they are illegal or not. They pay them in the form of property tax - directly if they own a home, or indirectly if they rent; sales tax on all the goods they buy, and income tax at Federal, State and local level. They can receive schooling and emergency medical care, but not welfare or food stamps.

-Due to welfare reform, legal immigrants are severely restricted from accessing public benefits, and illegal immigrants are even further precluded from anything other than emergency services. Anti-immigrant groups skew these figures by including programs used by U.S. citizen children of immigrants in their definition of immigrant.

- Immigrant labor-force participation is consistently higher than native-born, and immigrant workers make up a larger share of the U.S. labor force (12.4%) than they do the U.S. population (11.5%). Moreover, the ratio between immigrant use of public benefits and the amount of taxes they pay is consistently favorable to the U.S. In one estimate, immigrants earn about $240 billion a year, pay about $90 billion a year in taxes, and use about $5 billion in public benefits. In another cut of the data, immigrant tax payments total $20 to $30 billion more than the amount of government services they use.

[otherone]

Pleading for what amounts to be Corporate Welfare. Since when it is our civic responsibility to insure that Marriott maintains a healthy profit margin?

http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20140113152453-239587237-congress-should-keep-this-resolution?published=t

There was a thread similar to this before (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?432629-Crony-Corporatists-Coordinate-Pro-Amnesty-Twitter-Campaign)

article: (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/11/06/Chamber-of-Commerce-Zuckerberg-and-La-Raza-coordinate-pro-amnesty-Twitter-campaign)

Special interests lobbying for amnesty—including Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg’s FWD.us, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, and the National Council of La Raza—have taken to Twitter to further coordinate their pro-amnesty advocacy.

The Chamber, La Raza and FWD.us, among others, have coalesced around a specific coordinated Twitter hashtag: #Ready4Reform. “Why do you support #immigration reform,” Zuckerberg’s lobbying firm tweeted Wednesday morning, in a tweet that included the hashtag and a video of a Hispanic woman giving her reason for supporting reform efforts..........

[The economist]

Immigration is a benefit to the country that gets it, if it is looked at from a pure economic perspective.

[pcosmar]

So whats your opposition to immigration then?



I have no opposition to Immigration.
I Oppose this ""Immigration Reform" because of what is in it and what it does.

Are you in favor of a National ID/Real ID and a biometric database on every person in this country?
Are you in favor of that ID,,(or the lack of one) being tied to employment?

Are you in favor of employers being required to violate the privacy of potential employees?

That is what this "Immigration Reform" is about.

The human trafficking for cheap labor is a side issue.

[otherone]

Are you in favor of a National ID/Real ID and a biometric database on every person in this country?
Are you in favor of that ID,,(or the lack of one) being tied to employment?

Are you in favor of employers being required to violate the privacy of potential employees?

That is what this "Immigration Reform" is about.

The human trafficking for cheap labor is a side issue.

Dr. Paul agrees with you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9CZ5OUet3s&feature=player_embedded

[pcosmar]

Dr. Paul agrees with you:


This does not surprise me.

[Brian4Liberty]

So whats your opposition to immigration then? ... I have yet to hear my economic argument refuted....

My argument is purely economics. Supply and demand of labor. There is a recession right now, and there is a surplus of labor. There is high unemployment. Too many people are on food stamps and welfare. Those are all high priority problems in the US. Every politician talks about unemployment, and pretty much the only action they discuss taking is their 10,000 page "comprehensive immigration reform" (and more government spending).

It's pure economics. If the economy were booming, then there would be a need for more labor, and more immigration. We are in the middle of the greater depression right now. Timing is important.

At a more abstract level, my belief (and hypothesis) is that excess labor reduces the value of each individual, and decreases liberty in almost every area. It contributes to the rise of the Police State.


Recession, depression, low labor participation, high unemployment, high under-employment, record food stamp roles, record welfare roles, record debt.

[Ender]

I have no opposition to Immigration.
I Oppose this ""Immigration Reform" because of what is in it and what it does.

Are you in favor of a National ID/Real ID and a biometric database on every person in this country?
Are you in favor of that ID,,(or the lack of one) being tied to employment?

Are you in favor of employers being required to violate the privacy of potential employees?

That is what this "Immigration Reform" is about.

The human trafficking for cheap labor is a side issue.

Well said. I feel exactly the same.

I have no problem with immigration and feel, as gwax23 has stated, that it is good for the economy. I absolutely do not want any Real ID laws or any more gov interference with personal property/business/lives.

[Ender]

fr33: There's an extreme lack of understanding of the concepts of freedom and private property on this forum.

When I hire someone their lack of government papers is a positive. The fact that they don't feel entitled to cite labor laws is another positive.

I have no use for a 9 to 5 "citizen". We've had some "citizens" that aren't like that but they are few and far between.

Give me a Mexican that works sunup to sundown like I do and shove your immigration laws up your arse.

Absolutely!

Also- the Mexicans I have worked with are the hardest workers on the planet- PLUS they do a great job.

[Brian4Liberty]

So whats your opposition to immigration then? ... I have yet to hear my economic argument refuted....

My argument is purely economics. Supply and demand of labor. There is a recession right now, and there is a surplus of labor. There is high unemployment. Too many people are on food stamps and welfare. Those are all high priority problems in the US. Every politician talks about unemployment, and pretty much the only action they discuss taking is their 10,000 page "comprehensive immigration reform" (and more government spending).

It's pure economics. If the economy were booming, then there would be a need for more labor, and more immigration. We are in the middle of the greater depression right now. Timing is important.

At a more abstract level, my belief (and hypothesis) is that excess labor reduces the value of each individual, and decreases liberty in almost every area. It contributes to the rise of the Police State.


Recession, depression, low labor participation, high unemployment, high under-employment, record food stamp roles, record welfare roles, record debt.

[gwax23]

My argument is purely economics. Supply and demand of labor. There is a recession right now, and there is a surplus of labor. There is high unemployment. Too many people are on food stamps and welfare. Those are all high priority problems in the US. Every politician talks about unemployment, and pretty much the only action they discuss taking is their 10,000 page "comprehensive immigration reform" (and more government spending).

It's pure economics. If the economy were booming, then there would be a need for more labor, and more immigration. We are in the middle of the greater depression right now. Timing is important.

At a more abstract level, my belief (and hypothesis) is that excess labor reduces the value of each individual, and decreases liberty in almost every area. It contributes to the rise of the Police State.


Ahh so you believe the government is wise enough to dictate the supply of labor in recessions but during the good times we can live and let live? Sounds eerily keynesian to me. The fact is you dont know what the ideal supply of labor should be in good times or bad, nor does any bureaucrat. The market will determine it. Government artificially restricting the supply of labor through immigration policies wont solve our economic malaise.

Excess labor does not reduce the "value" of an individual (value is subjective) If we are to talk in a productivity sense then by your logic when we had 1000 cavemen living on the planet they where more productive per capita than the average joe living in a world of billions? Obviously not. Societies grow they dont remain the same or even worse regress. Should we simply kill of the "excess" (whoever they might be) in order to maintain some arbitrary value for the current citizens (akin to price fixing a commodity or service) Last I remember Malthus was disproved with his scary demographic predictions though it appears you might still believe it as well as the UN and other organizations. Maybe Im going to far with this but with a name like "Brain4Liberty" you just posted some of the most anti liberty views ive seen in awhile on this forum.

[The economist]

Should Maine grow itself wealthy by preventing people from California or other States from woking there? NO because that is nonsense! I hope I do not have to explain why.

It is amazing how national borders can cause people to support something they would otherwise oppose and fight to the death against.

[gwax23]

Should Maine grow itself welathy by preventing people from California from woking there? NO because that is nonsense! I hope I do not have to explain why.

It is amazing how national borders can cause people to support something they would otherwise oppose and fight to the death against it.

Exactly if immigrant restrictions improved the economy why not prevent people from moving within the states. Same argument works for tariffs and other trade restrictions. Some very smart people on these forums who understand some principles of liberty can be so short sighted when it comes to others.

[otherone]

My argument is purely economics. Supply and demand of labor. There is a recession right now, and there is a surplus of labor. There is high unemployment. Too many people are on food stamps and welfare. Those are all high priority problems in the US. Every politician talks about unemployment, and pretty much the only action they discuss taking is their 10,000 page "comprehensive immigration reform" (and more government spending).



Ron Paul expounds on these ideas:
link (http://www.lewrockwell.com/2005/08/ron-paul/immigration-and-the-welfare-state/)

Immigration and the Welfare State

by Rep. Ron Paul, MD by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

More and more of my constituents are asking me when Congress will address the problem of illegal immigration. The public correctly perceives that neither political party has the courage to do what is necessary to prevent further erosion of both our border security and our national identity. As a result, immigration may be the sleeper issue that decides the 2008 presidential election.

The problem of illegal immigration will not be solved easily, but we can start by recognizing that the overwhelming majority of Americans — including immigrants — want immigration reduced, not expanded.

Amnesty for illegal immigrants is not the answer. Millions of people who broke the law by entering, staying, and working in our country illegally should not be rewarded with a visa. Why should lawbreakers obtain a free pass, while those seeking to immigrate legally face years of paperwork and long waits for a visa?

We must end welfare state subsidies for illegal immigrants. Some illegal immigrants — certainly not all — receive housing subsidies, food stamps, free medical care, and other forms of welfare. This alienates taxpayers and breeds suspicion of immigrants, even though the majority of them work very hard. Without a welfare state, we would know that everyone coming to America wanted to work hard and support himself.

Our current welfare system also encourages illegal immigration by discouraging American citizens from taking low-wage jobs. This creates greater demand for illegal foreign labor. Welfare programs and minimum wage laws create an artificial market for labor to do the jobs Americans supposedly won’t do.

Illegal immigrants also place a tremendous strain on social entitlement programs. Under a proposed totalization agreement with Mexico, millions of illegal immigrants will qualify for Social Security and other programs — programs that already threaten financial ruin for America in the coming decades. Adding millions of foreign citizens to the Social Security, Medicare, and disability rolls will only hasten the inevitable day of reckoning.

Economic considerations aside, we must address the cultural aspects of immigration. The vast majority of Americans welcome immigrants who want to come here, work hard, and build a better life. But we rightfully expect immigrants to show a sincere desire to become American citizens, speak English, and assimilate themselves culturally. All federal government business should be conducted in English. More importantly, we should expect immigrants to learn about and respect our political and legal traditions, which are rooted in liberty and constitutionally limited government.

Our most important task is to focus on effectively patrolling our borders. With our virtually unguarded borders, almost any determined individual — including a potential terrorist — can enter the United States. Unfortunately, the federal government seems more intent upon guarding the borders of other nations than our own. We are still patrolling Korea’s border after some 50 years, yet ours are more porous than ever. It is ironic that we criticize Syria for failing to secure its border with Iraq while our own borders, particularly to the south, are no better secured than those of Syria.

We need to allocate far more of our resources, both in terms of money and manpower, to securing our borders and coastlines here at home. This is the most critical task before us, both in terms of immigration problems and the threat of foreign terrorists. Unless and until we secure our borders, illegal immigration and the problems associated with it will only increase.

If we took some of the steps I have outlined here — eliminating the welfare state and securing our borders — we could effectively address the problem of illegal immigration in a manner that would not undermine the freedom of American citizens. Sadly, it appears we are moving toward policies like a national ID that diminish our liberties. Like gun control, these approaches only punish the innocent, as criminals will always find a way around the law.

[Brian4Liberty]

Excess labor does not reduce the "value" of an individual (value is subjective) If we are to talk in a productivity sense then by your logic when we had 1000 cavemen living on the planet they where more productive per capita than the average joe living in a world of billions? Obviously not. Societies grow they dont remain the same or even worse regress. Should we simply kill of the "excess" (whoever they might be) in order to maintain some arbitrary value for the current citizens (akin to price fixing a commodity or service) Last I remember Malthus was disproved with his scary demographic predictions though it appears you might still believe it as well as the UN and other organizations. Maybe Im going to far with this but with a name like "Brain4Liberty" you just posted some of the most anti liberty views ive seen in awhile on this forum.

Ok, so, you don't believe in supply and demand, you can't grasp a concept that hasn't been spoon fed to you by some economist or philosopher, and you're an ass to boot.

[Brian4Liberty]

Ron Paul expounds on these ideas:
link (http://www.lewrockwell.com/2005/08/ron-paul/immigration-and-the-welfare-state/)

Immigration and the Welfare State

by Rep. Ron Paul, MD by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

More and more of my constituents are asking me when Congress will address the problem of illegal immigration. The public correctly perceives that neither political party has the courage to do what is necessary to prevent further erosion of both our border security and our national identity. As a result, immigration may be the sleeper issue that decides the 2008 presidential election.

The problem of illegal immigration will not be solved easily, but we can start by recognizing that the overwhelming majority of Americans — including immigrants — want immigration reduced, not expanded.

Amnesty for illegal immigrants is not the answer. Millions of people who broke the law by entering, staying, and working in our country illegally should not be rewarded with a visa. Why should lawbreakers obtain a free pass, while those seeking to immigrate legally face years of paperwork and long waits for a visa?

We must end welfare state subsidies for illegal immigrants. Some illegal immigrants — certainly not all — receive housing subsidies, food stamps, free medical care, and other forms of welfare. This alienates taxpayers and breeds suspicion of immigrants, even though the majority of them work very hard. Without a welfare state, we would know that everyone coming to America wanted to work hard and support himself.

Our current welfare system also encourages illegal immigration by discouraging American citizens from taking low-wage jobs. This creates greater demand for illegal foreign labor. Welfare programs and minimum wage laws create an artificial market for labor to do the jobs Americans supposedly won’t do.

Illegal immigrants also place a tremendous strain on social entitlement programs. Under a proposed totalization agreement with Mexico, millions of illegal immigrants will qualify for Social Security and other programs — programs that already threaten financial ruin for America in the coming decades. Adding millions of foreign citizens to the Social Security, Medicare, and disability rolls will only hasten the inevitable day of reckoning.

Economic considerations aside, we must address the cultural aspects of immigration. The vast majority of Americans welcome immigrants who want to come here, work hard, and build a better life. But we rightfully expect immigrants to show a sincere desire to become American citizens, speak English, and assimilate themselves culturally. All federal government business should be conducted in English. More importantly, we should expect immigrants to learn about and respect our political and legal traditions, which are rooted in liberty and constitutionally limited government.

Our most important task is to focus on effectively patrolling our borders. With our virtually unguarded borders, almost any determined individual — including a potential terrorist — can enter the United States. Unfortunately, the federal government seems more intent upon guarding the borders of other nations than our own. We are still patrolling Korea’s border after some 50 years, yet ours are more porous than ever. It is ironic that we criticize Syria for failing to secure its border with Iraq while our own borders, particularly to the south, are no better secured than those of Syria.

We need to allocate far more of our resources, both in terms of money and manpower, to securing our borders and coastlines here at home. This is the most critical task before us, both in terms of immigration problems and the threat of foreign terrorists. Unless and until we secure our borders, illegal immigration and the problems associated with it will only increase.

If we took some of the steps I have outlined here — eliminating the welfare state and securing our borders — we could effectively address the problem of illegal immigration in a manner that would not undermine the freedom of American citizens. Sadly, it appears we are moving toward policies like a national ID that diminish our liberties. Like gun control, these approaches only punish the innocent, as criminals will always find a way around the law.

That's the most statist, anti-liberty, xenophobic, guns to our heads nonsense on these forums in a long time. Who is this Ron Paul tyrant?

[gwax23]

Ok, so, you don't believe in supply and demand, you can't grasp a concept that hasn't been spoon fed to you by some economist or philosopher, and you're an ass to boot.

Yea Im not keen on shitty ideas.... but I grasped it alright. Saying the "value" of people is determined by how many people there are is a disturbing belief that would lead to even more disturbing policies. That and that we need less people to preserve "liberty." Value if subjective thats what Austrian economics is based on. So ill stick to my "spoon fed idea" and you can keep your crazy hypothesis.

You claim I dont grasp supply and demand, but your arrogant enough to think you know the proper supply of labor. You clearly support central planning by saying the government should restrict the supply of labor during recessions, as if anyone knows the true supply . (You ignored most of this in my last post which says something) If there is truly no demand there will be no supply. (i.e. less immigrants) You aggregate the entire economy and claim since on a whole the economy is doing bad that means all industries are and thus do not need or have a shortage of labor. While that is obviously not true as evident by Mariott who face a labor shortage.While it is true that some industries there is a labor surplus that cant be met other industries even during a recession might be facing labor shortages regardless.

[Cutlerzzz]

Saying the supply of labor increasing decreases its value isn't economics.

With the increase of labor there is an increase in production, which results in an increase in spending, enabling business grow to accommodate the increase in the labor supply. This also presumes that there is only one type of labor when there are thousands. A large number of low skill poorly educated Mexican laborers could result in the reduction of wages for low skill labor. But with the decrease in wages and increases in production in those industries will come lower prices for the middle class, upper class, and retirees. It will also make it cheaper to start businesses in those industries due to the lower labor costs, opening opportunity for people working in those industries.

This all also ignores that immigrants can open their own businesses, creating a demand for labor.

[gwax23]

Saying the supply of labor increasing decreases its value isn't economics.

With the increase of labor there is an increase in production, which results in an increase in spending, enabling business grow to accommodate the increase in the labor supply. This also presumes that there is only one type of labor when there are thousands. A large number of low skill poorly educated Mexican laborers could result in the reduction of wages for low skill labor. But with the decrease in wages and increases in production in those industries will come lower prices for the middle class, upper class, and retirees. It will also make it cheaper to start businesses in those industries due to the lower labor costs, opening opportunity for people working in those industries.

This all also ignores that immigrants can open their own businesses, creating a demand for labor.


Nah me thinks thats just spoon fed nonsense.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Should Maine grow itself wealthy by preventing people from California or other States from woking there? NO because that is nonsense! I hope I do not have to explain why.

It is amazing how national borders can cause people to support something they would otherwise oppose and fight to the death against.

Or restrict the movement of people leaving Chicago or Detroit because of those cities' high crime rates.

[Ender]

Saying the supply of labor increasing decreases its value isn't economics.

With the increase of labor there is an increase in production, which results in an increase in spending, enabling business grow to accommodate the increase in the labor supply. This also presumes that there is only one type of labor when there are thousands. A large number of low skill poorly educated Mexican laborers could result in the reduction of wages for low skill labor. But with the decrease in wages and increases in production in those industries will come lower prices for the middle class, upper class, and retirees. It will also make it cheaper to start businesses in those industries due to the lower labor costs, opening opportunity for people working in those industries.

This all also ignores that immigrants can open their own businesses, creating a demand for labor.

Quit talking sense, will ya?

Keep that up and we'll all have to pull our heads out of the Matrix and start acting like we are really for freedom and liberty. :rolleyes:

[jjdoyle]

The hotels probably want the low wage (probably low education) immigration workers, to continue doing great jobs like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObnO8vy7Q_k?

[Feeding the Abscess]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Corporations, immigrants, you, and anyone else can do whatever the fuck you want AS LONG AS MONEY IS NOT STOLEN FROM ME TO PAY FOR IT.

I'm curious as to why you chose this method of argumentation? You're a minarchist, so you yourself believe in stealing money to pay for government. Why accuse someone else of advocating for this when said person does not support a thieving entity to garner control and distribute stolen loot in this particular area?

If you've crossed the bridge into being a full-fledged supporter of a free society, welcome!

[gwax23]

The hotels probably want the low wage (probably low education) immigration workers, to continue doing great jobs like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObnO8vy7Q_k?

Oh boohoo. You dont like the service go to another Hotel. Its called capitalism. Immigrants have no greater propensity for unhygienic service than any other group.

[otherone]

You're a minarchist, so you yourself believe in stealing money to pay for government.

I'm an anti-federalist. I find the whole minarchy/anarchy debate tired, divisive, and unproductive.

[Feeding the Abscess]

I'm an anti-federalist. I find the whole minarchy/anarchy debate tired, divisive, and unproductive.

It's very informative. It shows who takes a free society seriously, and who wants to steal the productive efforts of others to pay for their favored proposals.

Your taxation rhetoric is anti-government. If you are, in fact, anti-government and pro-peace and voluntarism, your progression into a consistent supporter of a free society is welcome!

[Brian4Liberty]

Gary Johnson 2016!

[AuH20]

Gary Johnson 2016!

Let's keep feeding the welfare state with more dependents. That's the ticket! Such policies will lead to greater freedom to all. :rolleyes: All logic has left the building. Ask the Germans how their experiment in the 1960s worked out? That cheap labor thing worked out swell a generation or two later.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/at-home-in-a-foreign-country-german-turks-struggle-to-find-their-identity-a-795299.html

http://www.economist.com/node/15641057


Nearly one-third of Germany's Turks, the largest group of immigrants other than ethnic Germans, have no secondary-school diploma, and just 14% qualify to go to university. Some 16% are dependent on welfare, twice the share of native Germans. In 2005, the last year for which data are available, the unemployment rate among Turks was 23%, compared with 10% for native Germans.

[otherone]

Let's keep feeding the welfare state with more dependents. That's the ticket! Such policies will lead to greater freedom to all. :rolleyes: All logic has left the building. Ask the Germans how their experiment in the 1970s worked out? That cheap labor thing worked out swell.



http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/racist1.gif

[phill4paul]

What will they pay me to work in their Paris branch?

[AuH20]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/racist1.gif

The corporations receive cheap labor and you get a share of the inflated bill in 10-15 years? Sounds fair? Welfare state based immigration is one of the great heists this country has ever seen.

[otherone]

The corporations receive cheap labor and you get the inflated bill in 10-15 years? Sounds fair? Welfare state based immigration is one of the great heists this country has ever seen.

LOL.
A racist AND a commie!

[gwax23]

Oh look you guys are engaged in a anti immigration circle jerk.... The best thing to do when you lose the argument is to pat each other on the back for a job well done! That and try your best to ignore all the logic in front of you....

[AuH20]

Oh look you guys are engaged in a anti immigration circle jerk.... The best thing to do when you lose the argument is to pat each other on the back for a job well done! That and try your best to ignore all the logic in front of you....

Logic? If you have an old house infested with termites and the foundation is compromised.......Do you place ads requesting more termites to just finish off the structure? I want to know what the endgame is. Turn the entire country into California? Our days are numbered but let's be serious here. This would be suicide.

[otherone]

Oh look you guys are engaged in a anti immigration circle jerk.... The best thing to do when you lose the argument is to pat each other on the back for a job well done! That and try your best to ignore all the logic in front of you....

I'm surprised you can see our circle jerk with your head shoved so far up your ass.

[Brian4Liberty]

Logic? If you have an old house infested with termites and the foundation is compromised.......Do you place ads requesting more termites to just finish off the structure?

Yes. More termites create more exterminators, and more rebuilding, thus increasing productivity. The economy then grows. The broken window can't repair itself.

[jjdoyle]

Oh boohoo. You dont like the service go to another Hotel. Its called capitalism. Immigrants have no greater propensity for unhygienic service than any other group.

Well, that's assuming all countries teach the same standards of hygiene and health, and/or they have proper training when coming here. Apparently though, the proper training part was completely skipped here, so that would then fall back on hygiene and how they were taught/raised.

[AuH20]

Well, that's assuming all countries teach the same standards of hygiene and health, and/or they have proper training when coming here. Apparently though, the proper training part was completely skipped here, so that would then fall back on hygiene and how they were taught/raised.

Beyond that it's also probably directly related to productivity. I think the hotel chain has certain expectations on how many rooms their immigrant maids clean per hour. So if they can cut corners, they will do so to meet those stated goals.

[oyarde]

I would like to thank all of you guys for this thread , I will soon be able to convince the Mrs we should not stay in hotels any longer :)

[Ender]

The hotels probably want the low wage (probably low education) immigration workers, to continue doing great jobs like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObnO8vy7Q_k?

If the maids and maintenance are hispanic, the bathrooms are not dirty. Also- the hotel I was working with started their maintenance and housekeeping at $15 per hour. AND they were one of the smaller hotels.

[The economist]

1) Shoot (and/or deport) lots of people.
2) Ban people from moving for work between the states.
3) Ban investment and destroy factories.

That is exactly what would be the path to prosperity if the "immigration hurts the economy holds true".

The reality is that an expanding labor force does not cause unemployment, here is my proof. An expanding labor force means more people have jobs and the unemployment rate is largely unaffected.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/CLF16OV_Max_630_378.png
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/UNRATE_Max_630_378.png

When our ability to produce more for less we don't produce the same amount but produce more.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/GDPC1_Max_630_378.png
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/OPHNFB_Max_630_378.png

More immigrants means we will produce more because then we can produce more. That is what history teaches us, immigrants don't take our jobs away.

[pcosmar]

Oh look you guys are engaged in a anti immigration circle jerk.... The best thing to do when you lose the argument is to pat each other on the back for a job well done! That and try your best to ignore all the logic in front of you....

Ignore logic?
That would be you.

And you never answered the question.

Are you in favor of a National Biometric ID.?

I have no opposition to Immigration.
I Oppose this ""Immigration Reform" because of what is in it and what it does.

Are you in favor of a National ID/Real ID and a biometric database on every person in this country?
Are you in favor of that ID,,(or the lack of one) being tied to employment?

Are you in favor of employers being required to violate the privacy of potential employees?

That is what this "Immigration Reform" is about.

The human trafficking for cheap labor is a side issue.

[fr33]

I just wonder how many of those griping about corporations and cheap labor have ever started their own corporation and hired cheap labor. I recommend it.

I don't know how anyone could convince me to want expensive labor.

[Ender]

1) Shoot (and/or deport) lots of people.
2) Ban people from moving for work between the states.
3) Ban investment and destroy factories.

That is exactly what would be the path to prosperity if the "immigration hurts the economy holds true".

The reality is that an expanding labor force does not cause unemployment, here is my proof. An expanding labor force means more people have jobs and the unemployment rate is largely unaffected.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/CLF16OV_Max_630_378.png
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/UNRATE_Max_630_378.png

When our ability to produce more for less we don't produce the same amount but produce more.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/GDPC1_Max_630_378.png
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/OPHNFB_Max_630_378.png

More immigrants means we will produce more because then we can produce more. That is what history teaches us, immigrants don't take our jobs away.

Thank you.

[otherone]

I just wonder how many of those griping about corporations and cheap labor have ever started their own corporation and hired cheap labor. I recommend it.

I don't know how anyone could convince me to want expensive labor.


The original article (http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20140113152453-239587237-congress-should-keep-this-resolution?published=t) has quite a few comments from the corporate business community. It's an interesting controversy.

[gwax23]

Ignore logic?
That would be you.

And you never answered the question.

Are you in favor of a National Biometric ID.?

We were discussing open immigration in the general sense not the supposed contents of this specific immigration reform bill which I dont even support. So no I of course dont support any form of National ID etc etc.

[HOLLYWOOD]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CySzoJFkTA8


US forced prison labor: the new Slavery by another name
http://www.examiner.com/article/us-forced-prison-labor-the-new-slavery-by-another-name

More Jobs Lost As The Government Decides To Have Military Uniforms Made By Convicts at 23 Cents per Hour
http://www.businessinsider.com/corporate-prison-labor-is-forcing-small-businesses-to-close-factories-2012-9