WE WON! WE WON! - The light bulb ban is *D*E*A*D* !!!!!!! w00t!!!!

[tangent4ronpaul]

As part of budget deal, Congress blocks light bulb efficiency standards
Incandescents get a reprieve as part of the new budget agreement.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/01/as-part-of-budget-deal-congress-blacks-light-bulb-efficiency-standards/

Shortly after the US Department of Energy helped broker a deal that would see television set-top boxes save their users a billion dollars' worth of electricity, another branch of the government has decided to undercut energy efficiency efforts. As part of the new budget deal announced today, Congress has voted to eliminate standards for light bulb efficiency, standards that would see incandescent bulbs phased out in favor of technologies that convert far more electricity into light.

These ideas were first enacted during the Bush administration, via the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007. Incandescent bulbs were unable to meet the standards, so they would eventually be forced off the market in favor of LEDs and compact fluorescent bulbs. But Republicans have since soured on the bill, viewing it as an intrusion on the market and attempting to identify it with President Obama. Recent Congresses have tried many times to repeal the standards, but these have all been blocked.

However, US budgets are often used as a vehicle to get policies enacted that couldn't pass otherwise, since having an actual budget is considered too valuable to hold up over relatively minor disputes. The repeal of these standards got attached to the budget and will be passed into law with it.

Unfortunately, efficiency for small items is one case where the free market doesn't typically work. Individually, light bulbs draw very little power, and replacing one won't make any notable difference in a consumer's monthly bills. In addition, the replacement bulbs are more expensive up front and take years to pay off. As a result, there's unlikely to be rapid adoption of more efficient technology, leading to an extended period of wasted energy. By repealing the standards, Congress has ensured that the waste will go on even longer.

========

Now if we could only get toilets that don't constantly get clogged. And I'm sorry - 4-5 flushed to get the shit to go down DOES NOT save water!!!!

Those poor E-Bay warriors with 20,000 bulbs in their basement must be having a really bad day...

-t

[gwax23]

good.

[coastie]

LOL DAMN IT...I just bought a SHITLOAD of these things.:mad:

Guess I'll be good for quite a while on light bulbs.:p

[jj-]

Guys (and gals), there is a little secret about lights, but you can actually find studies that back these claims. Red light increases generation of energy in the cell. Blue light stresses cells. Incandescent lights, and "warm white" LEDs, have more red light and little blue, especially the incandescents, so these are better for your health. The CFL bulbs have a very intense blue band and very little red, so these are harmful to your health. Last year there were studies showing that they increase the risk of skin cancer.

[coastie]

Guys (and gals), there is a little secret about lights, but you can actually find studies that back these claims. Red light increases generation of energy in the cell. Blue light stresses cells. Incandescent lights, and "warm white" LEDs, have more red light and little blue, especially the incandescents, so these are better for your health. The CFL bulbs have a very intense blue band and very little red, so these are harmful to your health. Last year there were studies showing that they increase the risk of skin cancer.

That's all bad enough,but I was more worried about what happens when they break. I used to be a HAZMAT coordinator as part of my job in the USCG, and I don't recall ever being responsible for anything as dangerous as these things can be.

There's not a single one of these things in my home, and never will be. I'll use candles before I ever switch to those.

[jj-]

Relatedly, the spectrum emitted by candle light is pretty good too, from a health perspective

[brushfire]

LOL DAMN IT...I just bought a SHITLOAD of these things.:mad:

Guess I'll be good for quite a while on light bulbs.:p

Ahh... Look on the bright side - they have a long shelf life :)

[dannno]

That's all bad enough,but I was more worried about what happens when they break. I used to be a HAZMAT coordinator as part of my job in the USCG, and I don't recall ever being responsible for anything as dangerous as these things can be.

There's not a single one of these things in my home, and never will be. I'll use candles before I ever switch to those.

Ya the government wants to stick 40 mercury bombs throughout everybody's house... wtf

[Neil Desmond]

Guys (and gals), there is a little secret about lights, but you can actually find studies that back these claims. Red light increases generation of energy in the cell. Blue light stresses cells. Incandescent lights, and "warm white" LEDs, have more red light and little blue, especially the incandescents, so these are better for your health. The CFL bulbs have a very intense blue band and very little red, so these are harmful to your health. Last year there were studies showing that they increase the risk of skin cancer.
Is this specific to CLFs? What about regular fluorescent lights?

[Kelly.]

thanks,
NOW i will go stock up.

and dont forget, if you can get the "Heavy Duty" (or "rough service") versions of incandescent bulb, the filament is much stronger, and lasts MUCH longer.

[jj-]

Is this specific to CLFs? What about regular fluorescent lights?

I think there are many types of fluorescent lights. The ones with lower "color temperature" are healthier. 3000 Kelvins would be close to incandescent lights (good).

But anyway, the damage of a day of bad light can be reversed quickly after exposure to a good light, so if you have it at work and your lights at home are better, there should be no issue.

CFLs can actually be made to have a lot of red and little blue, but those aren't typically made for some reason. It's not the technology that determines if they are harmful, it's the spectrum.

[Dr.3D]

Now they come to this conclusion after the factories have gone out of business. Oh well I guess China can sell us the bulbs we need.

[Neil Desmond]

I think there are many types of fluorescent lights. The ones with lower "color temperature" are healthier. 3000 Kelvins would be close to incandescent lights (good).

But anyway, the damage of a day of bad light can be reversed quickly after exposure to a good light, so if you have it at work and your lights at home are better, there should be no issue.
That's good.


CFLs can actually be made to have a lot of red and little blue, but those aren't typically made for some reason.
But this doesn't sound so good.

[kahless]

Does this really change anything since it sounds like they are only eliminating funding to enforce the new efficiency standards? What manufacturer or importer is going to invest in violating the law regardless of whether there is currently have no funding to enforce it the law.

[Terry1]

Now if we could only get toilets that don't constantly get clogged. And I'm sorry - 4-5 flushed to get the shit to go down DOES NOT save water!!!!

Those poor E-Bay warriors with 20,000 bulbs in their basement must be having a really bad day...

-t

We had those new Champion terlits installed. I accidently flushed a pair of hubby's boxers and they went down with no problem. He had them laying on top of the terlit, I knocked them in the water as it was flushing. No--I did not attempt to stick my hand in there, they were on their own--buh-bye undies.

[Dr.3D]

We had those new Champion terlits installed. I accidently flushed a pair of hubby boxers and they went down with no problem.
Oh the poor puppies. :(

[PaulConventionWV]

Does this really change anything since it sounds like they are only eliminates funding to enforce the new efficiency standards? What manufacturer or importer is going to invest in violating the law regardless of whether they currently have no funding to enforce it.

Some will. It may not be as many, but some will because there is definitely a demand for them, as shown here.

[BuddyRey]

This is TERRIFIC news!!!

I was dreading the incandescent ban ever since I heard about it. I have to have incandescents, It's not just that I have health concerns about compact fluorescent bulbs, but that they have a palpable negative effect on my mood. After an hour spent in a room lit with fluorescent lights, I'm about ready to grab a razor and go out like Frank Pentangelli at the end of Godfather 2. Ok, that's a mild exaggeration, but still...they really do affect me.

Incandescents FTW!

[Root]

The CFL's do have one really good use, and that is to grow and flower certain plants indoors. There are better (more expensive) lighting options, but for someone who wants to grow just a few plants at a time, the CFL's come in handy.

[parocks]

Something good happened? I don't get it.

Incands are legal again, but they must include mind control chips, or something like that?

It really does look like Fed Gov is simply removing bad law.

Incands put out heat. In the winter, especially in the north, that heat is useful.

[jj-]

It's not just that I have health concerns about compact fluorescent bulbs, but that they have a palpable negative effect on my mood.

If you're that sensitive, I suggest you to experiment, should you so desire, with very intense incandescent lights, like adding up to 800 watts, to see the effects on mood.

[Occam's Banana]

Unfortunately, efficiency for small items is one case where the free market doesn't typically work. Individually, light bulbs draw very little power, and replacing one won't make any notable difference in a consumer's monthly bills. In addition, the replacement bulbs are more expensive up front and take years to pay off. As a result, there's unlikely to be rapid adoption of more efficient technology, leading to an extended period of wasted energy. By repealing the standards, Congress has ensured that the waste will go on even longer.

Gorram ever-lovin' frakkin' %$@#!*&^%!!!! AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!! :mad:

I'd be as rich as a banker if I had a Federal Reserve Note (of any denomination) for every time some ignoramus spouted off about how the "free market doesn't work" because it doesn't produce the result arbitrarily & subjectively deemed to be most desirable by the aforesaid ignoramus.

"Efficiency" does NOT exist alone in a vacuum - achieving it bears costs. When those costs are sufficiently large that they retard adoption of whatever it is that is deemed to be "more efficient" (because, for example, it does not "pay off") then that is NOT a signal of market "failure" - it is a sign that the market is working exactly as it should!!!

*!!-mumble-grumble-bullshit-frickr-frackr-chaps-my-ass-griple-murgle-idiot-bullshit-grabble-grumble-mumble!!*

[Origanalist]

Gorram ever-lovin' frakkin' %$@#!*&^%!!!! AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!! :mad:

I'd be as rich as a banker if I had a Federal Reserve Note (of any denomination) for every time some ignoramus spouted off about how the "free market doesn't work" because it doesn't produce the result arbitrarily & subjectively deemed to be most desirable by the aforesaid ignoramus.

"Efficiency" does NOT exist alone in a vacuum - achieving it bears costs. When those costs are sufficiently large that they retard adoption of whatever it is that is deemed to be "more efficient" (because, for example, it does not "pay off") then that is NOT a signal of market "failure" - it is a sign that the market is working exactly as it should!!!

*!!-mumble-grumble-bullshit-frickr-frackr-chaps-my-ass-griple-murgle-idiot-bullshit-grabble-grumble-mumble!!*

We must be related, you sound a lot like me.

[Neil Desmond]

Gorram ever-lovin' frakkin' %$@#!*&^%!!!! AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!! :mad:

I'd be as rich as a banker if I had a Federal Reserve Note (of any denomination) for every time some ignoramus spouted off about how the "free market doesn't work" because it doesn't produce the result arbitrarily & subjectively deemed to be most desirable by the aforesaid ignoramus.

"Efficiency" does NOT exist alone in a vacuum - achieving it bears costs. When those costs are sufficiently large that they retard adoption of whatever it is that is deemed to be "more efficient" (because, for example, it does not "pay off") then that is NOT a signal of market "failure" - it is a sign that the market is working exactly as it should!!!

*!!-mumble-grumble-bullshit-frickr-frackr-chaps-my-ass-griple-murgle-idiot-bullshit-grabble-grumble-mumble!!*

LOL! Easy there, Fred...


http://kw53.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/flintstonesprowler2-1.jpg

[parocks]

The CFL's do have one really good use, and that is to grow and flower certain plants indoors. There are better (more expensive) lighting options, but for someone who wants to grow just a few plants at a time, the CFL's come in handy.

Yeah. CFLs put out a lot of Lumens per watt, compared to incands. And CFLs are cheap. And, really, light is light. But you can grow tomatoes indoors with incands. A 75 watt halogen 60 degree spotlight will most certainly grow any type of plant. Not a tree, but a normal sized tomato plant. And yes, halogens, any incand, is less efficient, because it puts out heat as well as light. The halogen spectrum, any incand spectrum. is very close to that of the sun. The CFL spectrum is a bunch of weird spikes. It kinda looks like real light to hurmans, but it's really awful, if you look at that spectrum curve.

Led is best. More efficient than cfls. the spectrum is much more normal looking than cfls. Theoretically, an Led integrated / cob, could look just like sunlight.
Make a 50 watt white cob. Start with 50 blue 1 watt LEDs. But don't just take 50 identical blue leds, which would lead to a big spike at 450 nm or so. No. Take a close look at the sun's spectrum - a tiny bit at 380 nm - uv-a. And then increasing to 470-480 nm. Something like this in a blue cob. 1 380, 2 390, 3 400, 4 410, 4 420, 5 430, 6 440, 7 450, 8 460, 10 470. 50 1 watt chips, covering the uv range and the entirety of the blue range. Even today, they'll make something for you like that in Shenzhen - http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/1471374084/for_hydroponic_greenhouse_system_high_par.html - but, really, all they're doing is giving you 2 or 3 blues and 2 or 3 reds. They aren't giving you a "sunlight blue" yet. But they'll get to that.

Once you get a perfect set of blue chips, the blue part of the spectrum just the way you want it, then work hard on the phosphors part of the equation. Intematix makes a great set of phosphors. I'm not sure they sell to consumers, but they have blue greens at a 507nm, and they have a 660nm red, and everything in between. You get a hold of a range of phosphors from Intematix, and you mix them together, just right, and dump them on top of the 50w "sunlight blue" integrated chip, and you will be able to get a spectrum that looks just like the sun. http://www.intematix.com/products/led-phosphors Intematix does sell "chromalit" to customers, which is a remote phosphor, a piece of plastic with the phosphors embedded in it. It has a peak between 630nm and 660nm in the high CRI 2700k. It's a nice spectrum. They say the Bridgelux decor series, the Vero 13 and the Vero 18 have good spectrums as well. Year in, year out, companies will make little improvements like that. Right now, the focus is on converting electricity into light efficiently, and mixing the phosphors in a way that humans will appreciate the light.

Eventually, they'll get to duplicating sunlight, and then, after that, tweaking the blues and tweaking the phosphors to get better results for growing than sunlight. At this point, we're quite a ways away, with people talking about a "cool white" with 6500K and a "warm white" with 2700K and CRIs of 70 or 97 as if those numbers have specific fixed meanings as opposed to giving a general idea about what kind of light you're going to get. Consumers really need to have those spectrums to look at to know what they're getting. If you do enough research, you'll know that a 2700K led with a 97 CRI is going to have a peak somewhere between 630nm and 660nm, which is where you want it to be if you're growing tomatoes. You don't need a spectrum to know that, you just need to know that the real 2700K black body is going to have a peak in the red, and that 97 CRI is really close to 100 CRI (which is perfect). They just can't get a 97 CRI and a 2700K without having a lot of red. A cheap warm white 2700K with a low CRI like 80 could have very little red, they could use just one yellow phosphor at 580, and tons of it, so that theres very little blue, very little red, and a lot of yellow. So you really need those spectrums to know what you're getting. If you've read about the spectrums that tomatoes like, you can determine which light is better for your tomatoes.

Leds are the wave of the future, very interesting stuff.

[parocks]

This is TERRIFIC news!!!

I was dreading the incandescent ban ever since I heard about it. I have to have incandescents, It's not just that I have health concerns about compact fluorescent bulbs, but that they have a palpable negative effect on my mood. After an hour spent in a room lit with fluorescent lights, I'm about ready to grab a razor and go out like Frank Pentangelli at the end of Godfather 2. Ok, that's a mild exaggeration, but still...they really do affect me.

Incandescents FTW!

CFLs flicker on and off really fast. This annoys some people a whole lot. Others can't perceive it as much. There are other things wrong with CFLs. LEDs are better. Incands make heat, but humans love the light. A light bulb works just like a dim sun. A black body radiator.

[HOLLYWOOD]

hopefully competition will lower prices on LED/Lazer bulbs.

[EBounding]

I hate CFL's so much. I have a bunch that burned out in less than a year. I haven't thrown them out because I didn't want to harm the Earf, but I'm ready to pitch them all in the trash out of spite.

[Anti Federalist]

We have therapy for that, Comrade.

You will come with us, now.


Gorram ever-lovin' frakkin' %$@#!*&^%!!!! AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!! :mad:

I'd be as rich as a banker if I had a Federal Reserve Note (of any denomination) for every time some ignoramus spouted off about how the "free market doesn't work" because it doesn't produce the result arbitrarily & subjectively deemed to be most desirable by the aforesaid ignoramus.

"Efficiency" does NOT exist alone in a vacuum - achieving it bears costs. When those costs are sufficiently large that they retard adoption of whatever it is that is deemed to be "more efficient" (because, for example, it does not "pay off") then that is NOT a signal of market "failure" - it is a sign that the market is working exactly as it should!!!

*!!-mumble-grumble-bullshit-frickr-frackr-chaps-my-ass-griple-murgle-idiot-bullshit-grabble-grumble-mumble!!*

[Occam's Banana]

We have therapy for that, Comrade.

You will come with us, now.

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/vupWdrQrVQY/hqdefault.jpg

[RCA]

We do the dumbest posts get rated and important stuff like this doesn't? Blows my mind. 5-starred.

[kahless]

Reading over here depressed the hell out of me. I cannot believe how statist slashdot has become.
http://politics.slashdot.org/story/14/01/14/2116216/incandescent-bulbs-get-a-reprieve

[Ronin Truth]

If true it's really scary. A smidgen of intelligence has managed to leak out of D.C.

[MRK]

Relatedly, the spectrum emitted by candle light is pretty good too, from a health perspective

I actually use a candle light + computer light at night when I'm working. I works well enough to illuminate the room and it doesnt strain my eyes at all like the fluorescent lights do, and also less than the incandescents. A drawback is that I have to replace the candle about every hour because it gets burned quickly due to the fan breeze. The upside is the health benefits and that it costs less than electricity.

[MRK]

We do the dumbest posts get rated and important stuff like this doesn't? Blows my mind. 5-starred.

I have always wondered how to star a thread. How does one does this?

[Czolgosz]

Apparently somebody didn't get their kickbacks.

[oyarde]

I have always wondered how to star a thread. How does one does this?

Top right corner of the actual thread , select rate this thread , a little menu with stars will drop down .You can select one.

[Scrapmo]

Gorram ever-lovin' frakkin' %$@#!*&^%!!!! AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!! :mad:

*!!-mumble-grumble-bullshit-frickr-frackr-chaps-my-ass-griple-murgle-idiot-bullshit-grabble-grumble-mumble!!*

My Wife and I have noticed lately that, at times, my speech will quicken, become more slurred, become mumbled with slight dyslexia, and I will use terms incorrectly if not all together inventing new words that do not currently exist in the English. It seems to happen after I spend some time on the RPF, which leads me to believe that heavy doses of RPF will cause you to stroke out.

There should be a warning label on the home page.

[asurfaholic]

If true it's really scary. A smidgen of intelligence has managed to leak out of D.C.

I don't believe this is the case. The temporary fiasco probably achieved the objective of stuffing money in the right person's pocket, while causing the appropriate amount of damage to that person's competitor.

I won't sing and dance until the notion that the federal government can just up and ban anything it pleases, is properly demolished.

[Cap]

You can bet your bottom dollar this will resurface again.

[oyarde]

The factories are shut down , peoples homes are full of bulbs with mercury in them and they are not aware of this .These are being thrown in the trash and going to landfills. I cannot call that winning .

[jj-]

I actually use a candle light + computer light at night when I'm working. I works well enough to illuminate the room and it doesnt strain my eyes at all like the fluorescent lights do, and also less than the incandescents. A drawback is that I have to replace the candle about every hour because it gets burned quickly due to the fan breeze. The upside is the health benefits and that it costs less than electricity.

The light emitted by computers isn't so good. It has too much of the blue frequency, which in susceptible people can interfere with their sleep by messing up their circadian rhythms. Blue light at night can interfere with circadian rhythms. But there might be a way around that. There is a software called Flux, which reduces the intensity of blue light that your computer emits after sunset. I use it, another option is an amber filter.

[Ronin Truth]

I don't believe this is the case. The temporary fiasco probably achieved the objective of stuffing money in the right person's pocket, while causing the appropriate amount of damage to that person's competitor.

I won't sing and dance until the notion that the federal government can just up and ban anything it pleases, is properly demolished. Well that makes more sense too.

[LibertyEagle]

Unfortunately, didn't the last U.S. manufacturer of light bulbs close?

[Pericles]

Unfortunately, didn't the last U.S. manufacturer of light bulbs close?

I've always considered that a business opportunity - even if black market.

[Dr.3D]

Unfortunately, didn't the last U.S. manufacturer of light bulbs close?

Yep....
Light bulb factory closes; End of era for U.S. means more jobs overseas (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/07/AR2010090706933.html)

I guess the government wanted us to buy them from China in the first place.

[Anti-Neocon]

LED lights are cheaper in the long run, even at $20-30 a piece. I guess the free market will take care of this one though.

[jj-]

LED lights are cheaper in the long run, even at $20-30 a piece. I guess the free market will take care of this one though.

The whole point of eliminating incandescents was to make sellers of CFL bulbs rich. Although LEDs will take over the market at some point, the law might stay anyway out of the authoritarian impulses of politicians and environmentalist monsters.

[Anti-Neocon]

The whole point of eliminating incandescents was to make sellers of CFL bulbs rich. Although LEDs will take over the market at some point, the law might stay anyway out of the authoritarian impulses of politicians and environmentalist monsters.
CFLs were the lightbulb of the future in the 1980s.

I think there is very little evidence that these proposed laws were constructed for the purpose of making CFL sellers rich. The manufacturers of incandecents, CFLs, and LEDs overlap to the degree that I don't see the regulations being beneficial for many specific companies within the light bulb industry. I think the forces behind the push come from elsewhere.

[jj-]

CFLs were the lightbulb of the future in the 1980s.

I think there is very little evidence that these proposed laws were constructed for the purpose of making CFL sellers rich. The manufacturers of incandecents, CFLs, and LEDs overlap to the degree that I don't see the regulations being beneficial for many specific companies within the light bulb industry. I think the forces behind the push come from elsewhere.

A counter argument: Industry, not environmentalists, killed traditional light bulbs (http://washingtonexaminer.com/industry-not-environmentalists-killed-incandescent-bulbs/article/2541430). An excerpt:


Capitalism ruining their party, the bulb-makers turned to government. Philips teamed up with NRDC. GE leaned on its huge lobbying army — the largest in the nation — and soon they were able to ban the low-profit-margin bulbs.

[parocks]

hopefully competition will lower prices on LED/Lazer bulbs.

Leds are best as spotlights or floodlights, they emit light in one direction. A 3x3w spot or flood light will use maybe 6 watts and will put out a powerful enough beam of light. They're cheap on ebay especially if you wait for them to come from China.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/E27-PAR16-3x3W-High-Power-9W-LED-Bulb-Light-Lamp-Warm-White-Hot-sales-led-bulbs-/331051344492?pt=US_Light_Bulbs&hash=item4d1432a26c

That's $4

[Dianne]

This is really great !!!! How far this country has gone downhill where we are so thrilled, we have a choice of lightbulbs ... Well something won, THANK YOU DEAR FED, FOR ALLOWING ME TO USING THE LIGHTBULB OF MY CHOICE...

[jj-]

Leds are best as spotlights or floodlights, they emit light in one direction

They have improved and some models feel almost like a regular incandescent light, except for the cooler white.