How the education bubble will pop:

[Matt Collins]

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303933104579302951214561682?mg=ren o64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB1000 1424052702303933104579302951214561682.html

[willwash]

I don't know that the college bubble will burst the same way the real estae bubble did. student loan debt is nondischargeable, so lenders won't have to eat the loans to the extent they did with bankruptices in 2008. Besides, most student loans are directl from the fed govt anyway.

What I think we will see is a gradual shift away from the mentality that college is for everyone. College (bachelors or higher) should really only be for the top 10-15%.

[LibForestPaul]

Where is all this money going because it is not to the teaching professors? Adjuncts are getting the shaft so who are pocketing the monies?

[willwash]

Where is all this money going because it is not to the teaching professors? Adjuncts are getting the shaft so who are pocketing the monies?

No one's been pocketing it, it's being spent. Universities across the country have been in an absolute spending bonanza for the past 15 or so years, building frivolous student recreation centers and other new buildings, as well as beefing up their do-nothing administrative staffs to absurd levels.

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[DamianTV]

One thing that is inevitable is a New Class of people: The Educated Poor.

[ItsTime]

One thing that is inevitable is a New Class of people: The Educated Poor.

Already seeing this. We talked about this in my poli sci classes in the late 90s. It was starting to happen in Europe then. Now it is happening in the US. People are getting conned into getting a college education when they might be better suited for other jobs. So now those people get an education, can't find a job, and start working at a job they could have worked at 4 years before... thus they are now 4 years behind moving up the ladder.

[heavenlyboy34]

One thing that is inevitable is a New Class of people: The Educated Poor.

I prefer "The Schooled Poor", as I distinguish "schooling" from "education". But that's a nitpick... Yeah, having this "smart" underclass is going to be interesting. It's like the Social Engineers are just shifting around the "class" structure or something to keep the illusion alive.

[Matt Collins]

One thing that is inevitable is a New Class of people: The Educated Poor.
Doesn't this lead to revolution with tyrannical outcomes?

[Ender]

Already seeing this. We talked about this in my poli sci classes in the late 90s. It was starting to happen in Europe then. Now it is happening in the US. People are getting conned into getting a college education when they might be better suited for other jobs. So now those people get an education, can't find a job, and start working at a job they could have worked at 4 years before... thus they are now 4 years behind moving up the ladder.

The "degree" started as a con game.

It was invented for those who couldn't "do the do" to prove they were actually professionals. The real professional used to be the amateur; a degree took the place of real talent/knowledge/experience and now we have the uneducated educated masses.

[ThePenguinLibertarian]

The "degree" started as a con game.

It was invented for those who couldn't "do the do" to prove they were actually professionals. The real professional used to be the amateur; a degree took the place of real talent/knowledge/experience and now we have the uneducated educated masses.
Whats a useless degree and a needed one? Obviously, Law and Medicine are classics. What about engineering and Math?

[Tod]

I know my alma mater started spending like crazy back in mid to late 80's and I don't think they have slowed one bit. Tons of new buildings and facilities. They have probably tripled the number of buildings. It is like someone opened a floodgate.

[Tod]

Getting an education is never a bad thing in itself. What is bad is saddling yourself with debt you cannot pay and schools lowering their standards in order to keep the cash coming in and/or to comply with government regulations.

[DamianTV]

Education and Schooling are very very different indeed.

I think our education bubble has already popped. It costs more to get a degree than exist jobs that make it worth while to have gotten that degree. 50k in debt to work at McDonalds. Were you really better off paying for that degree if you are unable to use it? Yeah, you could spend a hundred grand and get saddled with debt to get a PhD. In Poetry. Is it really worth your while? What if it wasnt Poetry, but something useful? Electronic Engineering for example? By the time one graduates, everything you've been taught is now obsolete. How about something less than a PhD, maybe just a Bachelors? Again, same thing. Get a degree in Social Services or some shit that you dont need a degree, just two brain cells to rub together. And again, the pay when actually getting the job is typically so low that it doesnt make it worth a persons money to have paid for that degree. Or they find that they never work in the field for which they were Schooled for. Not educated, Schooled. Difference. How hard is it to figure out the people taking out these massive student loans are doing so because there is no work available for them regardless if they have a degree or not and they know it? How hard is it to figure out these people do not plan on ever paying back that debt? They're taking out these loans to LIVE day to day because theres no work available, they dont qualify for Welfare or Unemployment. They dont even care about the subject that they're studying. They're just looking to get money because there are so few other sources of legitimate income available. The loans are never fully paid back. The Schooled Stupid. The Educated Idiots. Pieces of paper, in both Diplomas / Degrees and the currency used to buy them. We may just as well start calling them by the same way as we refer to our value leaking currency. Fiat Degrees. Bought and paid for with no real indication that any information has been taught or understood, at least in any sort of useful sense. Its the College equivilant of "do you want fries with that" to dictate that you need 18 Humanities courses, 2 Math, and one Electronics to get a degree in Electronics, except now, there is no choice but to buy the Happy Meal as they wont sell you just the sandwich. And all so they can get a job asking people "do you want fries with that"?

Pop goes the bubble.

The value our culture places on Schooling far exceeds the value that should be placed on Intelligence, Understanding, and Experience.

[SilentBull]

A consequence of federal student loans that is rarely talked about, which I discuss in a recent article (http://www.truthinexile.com/student-loan-bubble/), is the fact that the terms of student loans don't vary depending on the major. This causes many students to get into fields in which there isn't much demand for labor. A private bank would care about what you're planning to study because they want to make sure you'll be able to get a job afterwards, so you can pay them back.

[jbauer]

Where is all this money going because it is not to the teaching professors? Adjuncts are getting the shaft so who are pocketing the monies?

Agree, I know a "professor" for an online college who barely makes minimum wage based on the hours she works.

[jbauer]

Doesn't this lead to revolution with tyrannical outcomes?

ABSOLULEY. This is why the "youth" are so important. THEY will dictate where we as a country go from here. Right now you've got millions of educated youth living in Mom's basement because they can't find a job. Add to that, they can and do socialize via the internet where things spread like wildfire.

[gjdavis60]

Well, all the subsidies have finally pushed costs so high that education is being priced out of reach, even when taking advantage of all the available financial aid. Ironically, higher education is, once again, becoming something that only the affluent can afford. So our wise leaders now have a choice: they can admit that they have created a bubble and try something else, or they can cover their eyes and ears and double down on "affordable" education by raising subsidies even higher. The small private institutions will be (are) the first ones to start retrenching and shutting down as more and more students balk at the astronomical costs of a 4 year degree. Of course, as supply falls, it will be the poor and middle class who are further squeezed out of the higher ed marketplace. White, liberal, guilt-based policy fails again.

In the context of the failure of socialized higher education, electronic delivery of instruction and free-market testing and certification hold potential to redefine the market and provide a more direct and effective pipeline between prospective employees and employers.

[Ender]

Whats a useless degree and a needed one? Obviously, Law and Medicine are classics. What about engineering and Math?

Degrees are all useless; very few are working in the field they graduated in. A degree can get you a job, maybe, at McDonalds- it does not mean you will ever be working in your area of interest.

Do you know a licensed medical practitioner that knows anything about food and health? Do you know any lawyer that actually knows what the Constitution means? Nullification?

The greatest computer techs I know did not go to school for computers. One friend makes minimum $10,000 a pop, with no degree.

In the arts, a degree means squat. It does not guarantee talent. Many of the greatest artists/musicians/actors I know were told by the university they applied to, to NOT come there- they had nothing to teach them. No one wants a film crew that has been sitting in a seat for 8 years- they want someone that has been making films.

Public ed was started to make the general public into compliant factory workers. College is usually just a continuation of The Matrix.


ETA:

This does NOT mean that learning is not important. Real learning should be a life time pursuit. Most PHDs never pick a book up again- they've had all the desire to learn squeezed out of them.

[surf]

the pressure on parents to ensure that their kids go to college is immense. no matter how many mortgages you need to take out on your house, you're often assumed to be a bad parent if you don't send your kids to college.

I was able to pay for my college by working summers in Alaska (avg 136 hrs/week one summer), and I lived comfortably by pinching pennies where possible. if I were to do this again, I doubt i'd be able to afford college on those wages.

books are one of the biggest scams out there. I always bought used books (w/a lot of highlighting to help my lazy side). I know a kid going to a community college right now, and the required books for his 3 classes are around $800. I had many professors that would use their books to teach and would change a paragraph or two to essentially make it seem like you would need the "new" edition to keep up.

it always seemed ridiculous to me that these professors implied that their books (among hundreds) were the best available on any one subject.

[heavenlyboy34]

Degrees are all useless; very few are working in the field they graduated in. A degree can get you a job, maybe, at McDonalds- it does not mean you will ever be working in your area of interest.

Do you know a licensed medical practitioner that knows anything about food and health? Do you know any lawyer that actually knows what the Constitution means? Nullification?

The greatest computer techs I know did not go to school for computers. One friend makes minimum $10,000 a pop, with no degree.

In the arts, a degree means squat. It does not guarantee talent. Many of the greatest artists/musicians/actors I know were told by the university they applied to, to NOT come there- they had nothing to teach them. No one wants a film crew that has been sitting in a seat for 8 years- they want someone that has been making films.

Public ed was started to make the general public into compliant factory workers. College is usually just a continuation of The Matrix.


ETA:

This does NOT mean that learning is not important. Real learning should be a life time pursuit. Most PHDs never pick a book up again- they've had all the desire to learn squeezed out of them.

This^^ When young people ask me about this kind of thing, I just say that there are only a few degrees worth getting-those in medicine and certain sciences. The others are only worthwhile if you get a teaching degree and teach the subject you major in. Interview someone who does the job you want to do before wasting years and thousands of dollars. There are thousands of people with much more schooling in my specialties than I who are earning minimum wage, drawing unemployment, or doing work that has nothing to do with their degrees. Do you happen to have stats about people who get their degrees paid for by the military? My dad double majored in mathematics and chemistry paid for by the army, but spent his life doing the trade he learned while there (electrician). Never used the degree for a damn thing.

[bunklocoempire]

There's a doggy treat right over there. With some hard work the doggy can go straight to it, grab the treat, and save a bunch of time and resources.

This does not sit well with those who like to sell, maintain, and hold worthless hoops for doggies to jump through.

The doggy going after his treat is natural and firmly rooted in reality.
The hoops are not based on any kind of reality.

Without divulging too much info, my wife and I have put out considerable effort to get to the treat. The treat is there in our sights but we have to settle for crumbs because we didn't jump through the hoops. Nobody got us to this point except God, some great employees, a great partner, and ourselves.
Enjoying that full treat is illegal for us as dictated by the hoop bastards.

A very successful and growing business was built up WITHOUT the "help" of going through the hoops. So the frickin' hoops were NEVER NECESSARY to better ourselves in the first place -but only there for the hoop holders benefit.

*spit* :mad::mad::mad:

Let it "pop". And let it pop with the force of a thousand exploding suns -I'll be doing a jig.

[DamianTV]

...


ETA:

This does NOT mean that learning is not important. Real learning should be a life time pursuit. Most PHDs never pick a book up again- they've had all the desire to learn squeezed out of them.

Definitely This! +Rep

[LibForestPaul]

Whats a useless degree and a needed one? Obviously, Law and Medicine are classics. What about engineering and Math?

Medicine , both pharmacy and medical doctors are inflated degrees. Hence, pharm D. Doctors would be better off forgoing 4 years of history before entering med school.

[Anti Federalist]

Doesn't this lead to revolution with tyrannical outcomes?

All of this leads to Bolshevik or fascist revolution.

Which is what TPTB wanted all along.

They will be, they are, the new Ruling Class.

[Anti Federalist]

Public ed was started to make the general public into compliant factory workers.

Now that those factory and middle class jobs are mostly all gone, they have migrated to their real primary mission:

Making compliant state slaves.

[Lucille]

Medicine , both pharmacy and medical doctors are inflated degrees. Hence, pharm D. Doctors would be better off forgoing 4 years of history before entering med school.

They need to study small business management and entrepreneurship also.

I'll just leave this (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-05-12/who-highest-paid-public-employee-your-state) here.


Think the best paid public servant in your state is some tax-collecting bureaucrat with a commission-based comp structure, or some administrative apparatchik? Think again. As the following infographic from Deadspin shows, in 41 US states, the highest-paid public employee is either the football, basketball or hockey coach at the local state school. Whick takes cares of the "Circuses" part. For now, at least, public sector bakers did not make the list...

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2013/05/coaches_0.jpg

[DamianTV]

Doesn't this lead to revolution with tyrannical outcomes?

Not always. The poor that have been Educated are Indoctrinated to practice a Religion I call State Worship. The poor that are not educated have not been taught that the only way to fix a corrupted govt is to replace that form of govt with something that works better than whatever they currently have. Either way, the revolution doesnt come from the People, but definitely a Govt that serves the will of the Tyrants. The more people that resist, the heavier the hand of tyranny will be. We're still transitioning to a Soft Tyranny, but I doubt that the most extreme version of Tyranny is very far away.

Fortunately for Leaders that people do not think. - Hitler

I dont want a society of Thinkers, I want a society of Obedient Workers. - Rockefeller

Never let School stand in the way of your Education. Mark Twain

[heavenlyboy34]

Education and Schooling are very very different indeed.

I think our education bubble has already popped. It costs more to get a degree than exist jobs that make it worth while to have gotten that degree. 50k in debt to work at McDonalds. Were you really better off paying for that degree if you are unable to use it? Yeah, you could spend a hundred grand and get saddled with debt to get a PhD. In Poetry. Is it really worth your while? What if it wasnt Poetry, but something useful? Electronic Engineering for example? By the time one graduates, everything you've been taught is now obsolete. How about something less than a PhD, maybe just a Bachelors? Again, same thing. Get a degree in Social Services or some shit that you dont need a degree, just two brain cells to rub together. And again, the pay when actually getting the job is typically so low that it doesnt make it worth a persons money to have paid for that degree. Or they find that they never work in the field for which they were Schooled for. Not educated, Schooled. Difference. How hard is it to figure out the people taking out these massive student loans are doing so because there is no work available for them regardless if they have a degree or not and they know it? How hard is it to figure out these people do not plan on ever paying back that debt? They're taking out these loans to LIVE day to day because theres no work available, they dont qualify for Welfare or Unemployment. They dont even care about the subject that they're studying. They're just looking to get money because there are so few other sources of legitimate income available. The loans are never fully paid back. The Schooled Stupid. The Educated Idiots. Pieces of paper, in both Diplomas / Degrees and the currency used to buy them. We may just as well start calling them by the same way as we refer to our value leaking currency. Fiat Degrees. Bought and paid for with no real indication that any information has been taught or understood, at least in any sort of useful sense. Its the College equivilant of "do you want fries with that" to dictate that you need 18 Humanities courses, 2 Math, and one Electronics to get a degree in Electronics, except now, there is no choice but to buy the Happy Meal as they wont sell you just the sandwich. And all so they can get a job asking people "do you want fries with that"?

Pop goes the bubble.

The value our culture places on Schooling far exceeds the value that should be placed on Intelligence, Understanding, and Experience.

Discriminating against stupidity and incompetence should be legalized. That way, employers could just ask prospective employees to pass and IQ/competence test. But noooo, that's discrimination! Sadly, the degree has to become the new "intelligence" test because of the regime's stupid laws. And what a piss poor standard of "intelligence" it is! In this country at least, it's very possible to be completely illiterate and graduate suma cum laude. You just have to know how to game the system and be clever about cheating. Fucking pathetic.

[UpperDecker]

No one's been pocketing it, it's being spent. Universities across the country have been in an absolute spending bonanza for the past 15 or so years, building frivolous student recreation centers and other new buildings, as well as beefing up their do-nothing administrative staffs to absurd levels.

All the while they are cutting classes because they "just don't have enough money", then getting mad when people don't graduate on time.....

[oyarde]

All of this leads to Bolshevik or fascist revolution.

Which is what TPTB wanted all along.

They will be, they are, the new Ruling Class.Pretty much , everytime I think of it ( the Bolshevik's) , I comfort myself by buying a couple more boxes of ammo .

[Keith and stuff]

They need to study small business management and entrepreneurship also.

I'll just leave this (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-05-12/who-highest-paid-public-employee-your-state) here.

Hockey? What is wrong with those wicked NH peeps? It must be football, and especially since NH has such a great football team. NV is cool too. I do plastic surgery, now pay me 2 100 grand ;)

[DamianTV]

Discriminating against stupidity and incompetence should be legalized. That way, employers could just ask prospective employees to pass and IQ/competence test. But noooo, that's discrimination! Sadly, the degree has to become the new "intelligence" test because of the regime's stupid laws. And what a piss poor standard of "intelligence" it is! In this country at least, it's very possible to be completely illiterate and graduate suma cum laude. You just have to know how to game the system and be clever about cheating. Fucking pathetic.

I think that possibly a Degree is nothing more than an Obedience Test, as it obviously doesnt measure intelligence, ability, comprehension, or anything else that is worth two squirts of piss in the real world.

[DamianTV]

Hockey? What is wrong with those wicked NH peeps? It must be football, and especially since NH has such a great football team. NV is cool too. I do plastic surgery, now pay me 2 100 grand ;)

Nevada has a Hockey team? Thats like the Tropical Bobsledding team, or Alaskan Sunbathing team! :p

[Keith and stuff]

Nevada has a Hockey team? Thats like the Tropical Bobsledding team, or Alaskan Sunbathing team! :p

I have no idea if NV has a hockey team. It's highest paid state public employee is a plastic surgeon according to the map.

But wasn't there a tropical bobsledding team, anyway? And actually, in the summer, much of Alaska is pretty much nothing but sun so that would make sense too ;)

[frodus24]

Graduate level students are coming into my office requesting additional loans to cover their increased health premium cost. It's a sad world we live in folks.

[2young2vote]

My dad used to work for Central Michigan University. Besides what you would expect by it being a gubmint job, he also told me why universities are constantly having to raise tuition.

It starts with the politicians. They like to get grants from the federal government so they can say to their constituents "See, I do care about the community, I gave CMU over $5,000,000 in grants so they can improve the education of future generations!" The problem is these buildings that are built from this grant money often have massive upkeep costs. It might costs $100,000+ a year to heat, cool, and clean some of these buildings. Where is that money coming from? The University either has to beg for more money, or they have to raise tuition for the students, but most likely both.