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View Full Version : NAFTA is 20 years old this month ...




Occam's Banana
01-10-2014, 12:31 PM
POLL:
- vote for "'managed trade' is a good thing" if you think such agreements are good things in and of themselves (or even just good "on net")
- vote for "'managed trade' is a bad thing" if you think such agreements are bad things in and of themselves (or even just bad "on net")
- vote for "neutral / don't care" if you think that the good & bad aspects of such agreements cancel out (or if you don't think the issue is important)
- vote for "not sure / don't know" if, for whatever reason, you haven't settled on any of the above opinions or positions on the issue

FTA (emphasis mine): http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/produce-and-nafta/

Produce and NAFTA

This month is the 20th anniversary of NAFTA. A story on NPR (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/01/09/260790888/the-fruits-of-free-trade-how-nafta-revamped-the-american-diet) yesterday talks about how Americans have more produce because of NAFTA:

Walk through the produce section of your supermarket and you’ll see things you’d never have seen years ago — like fresh raspberries or green beans in the dead of winter. Much of that produce comes from Mexico, and it’s the result of the North American Free Trade Agreement — NAFTA — which took effect 20 years ago this month. In the years since, NAFTA radically changed the way we get our fruits and vegetables. For starters, the volume of produce from Mexico to the U.S. has tripled since 1994.

Could Americans have gotten more produce without NAFTA? Of course. It is called free trade, which NAFTA is not. A free trade agreement takes a paragraph, not hundreds of pages. For further reading, here (http://mises.org/Econsense/ch87.asp) is a great analysis of NAFTA by Murray Rothbard, here (http://fff.org/explore-freedom/article/managed-trade-free-trade/) is my article “Managed Trade Is Not Free Trade,” and here (http://www.lewrockwell.com/2004/02/laurence-m-vance/the-moral-case-for-free-trade/) is my article “The Moral Case for Free Trade.” The Mises Institute (http://mises.org/) once put out The NAFTA Reader, but I am unable to locate it.

The notion that we should be thankful for NAFTA because more (varieties of) items are available than otherwise would have been is absurd. The only reason for the expanded availability of such items (under "managed trade" agreements such as NAFTA) is the prior imposition of trade restrictions upon those items in the first place!

NAFTA, CAFTA, etc. are all instances of "two steps backward, one step forward." And even the "step forward" part is more than a little dubious, given that it comes in the form of so-called "managed trade" (NOT free trade) - with all its attendant oppourtunities for bureaucratic jobbery, rent-seeking cronyism, and curtailments of national sovereignty.

Free trade requires the elimination of trade barriers - NOT the "management" of them ...

GunnyFreedom
01-10-2014, 12:33 PM
Giant sucking sound.

Occam's Banana
01-10-2014, 12:39 PM
Poll added to OP.

donnay
01-10-2014, 02:04 PM
Free Trade is truly Orwellian.

Bastiat's The Law
01-10-2014, 02:10 PM
Giant sucking sound.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkgx1C_S6ls

James Madison
01-10-2014, 05:58 PM
Walk through the produce section of your supermarket and you’ll see things you’d never have seen years ago — like fresh raspberries or green beans in the dead of winter. Much of that produce comes from Mexico, and it’s the result of the North American Free Trade Agreement — NAFTA — which took effect 20 years ago this month. In the years since, NAFTA radically changed the way we get our fruits and vegetables. For starters, the volume of produce from Mexico to the U.S. has tripled since 1994.

More evidence the government class is completely out of touch with mainstream America.

'No job? Here's some fuckin' raspberries. Without us you couldn't pick seeds out of your teeth and celebrate Christmas at the same time! Progress!'

GunnyFreedom
01-10-2014, 06:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkgx1C_S6ls

Notice particularly that Perot was objecting to the ONE SIDED trade imbalance; that this would cause that 'giant sucking sound,' but if you pay attention to what he is actually saying, that he'd be Ok with it if it were 'two way.' In other words, he opposed NAFTA because it would suck all the jobs to the South, but he was implying that if it were honest to goodness REAL 'free trade' that it would not have that same effect.

He opposed NAFTA but supported the free market, even internationally. He articulated that NAFTA (managed) trade would crate job losses, but bilateral (free) trade would not cause that same problem.

I totally agree with him on that.

Bastiat's The Law
01-10-2014, 06:24 PM
Perot's statement on NAFTA was pretty prophetic.

Bastiat's The Law
01-10-2014, 06:33 PM
Here's the full video of Perot vs. Al Gore.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XEziSYRqhU

Natural Citizen
01-11-2014, 01:07 AM
Fuck You, Frank!

TaftFan
01-11-2014, 01:12 AM
In terms of lowering tariffs, yeah it is a good thing. In terms of the pile of international regulations it created, it is a huge mess.

satchelmcqueen
01-11-2014, 08:19 PM
nafta is bad. mmkay?

lost my good levis job in 2002 because of nafta. so did 500 others. it all started in the levis corp in 2007 with the fist closure of several US plants. 2002 was the last round of closures.

2 of my fellow coworkers went to talk to our state governor at the time and asked if he could help reverse nafta and keep our jobs. they said he told them that "nafta is a good thing. you must share your way of life with others overseas." he then asked them to leave his office a few minutes later.

Brett85
01-13-2014, 01:26 PM
Notice particularly that Perot was objecting to the ONE SIDED trade imbalance; that this would cause that 'giant sucking sound,' but if you pay attention to what he is actually saying, that he'd be Ok with it if it were 'two way.' In other words, he opposed NAFTA because it would suck all the jobs to the South, but he was implying that if it were honest to goodness REAL 'free trade' that it would not have that same effect.

He opposed NAFTA but supported the free market, even internationally. He articulated that NAFTA (managed) trade would crate job losses, but bilateral (free) trade would not cause that same problem.

I totally agree with him on that.

Can you explain why managed free trade causes the U.S to lose jobs but "real free trade" doesn't cause any job losses? I'm not arguing with you, but I just don't know that much about this topic.

specsaregood
01-13-2014, 02:20 PM
He opposed NAFTA but supported the free market, even internationally. He articulated that NAFTA (managed) trade would crate job losses, but bilateral (free) trade would not cause that same problem.


Free trade would have the exact same problem (maybe even worse) as long as we have control of the global fiat currency and can print at will. Too bad Perot missed the forest for the trees.

Bastiat's The Law
01-13-2014, 08:04 PM
Al Gore looks like a fool in that video, even more so than usual.

Bastiat's The Law
01-30-2014, 02:45 PM
Bump for more votes!

heavenlyboy34
01-30-2014, 05:01 PM
Seems like just yesterday NAFTA was taking its first baby steps...

Zippyjuan
01-30-2014, 06:59 PM
It still pees on the sofa once in a while.

Cutlerzzz
02-01-2014, 01:10 AM
The freer the trade the better.

Managed trade implies government control, making it coercive.

Bastiat's The Law
02-01-2014, 12:48 PM
I saw a something that said NAFTA cost the U.S. between 700k and 1 million jobs.

Pericles
02-01-2014, 09:29 PM
Giant sucking sound.

very successful - the middle class in the US is well on its way to extinction.

Anti Federalist
02-02-2014, 08:15 PM
very successful - the middle class in the US is well on its way to extinction.

Already dead for the most part.

You won't be able to hold any job before long without a $100,000 permission slip from some college somewhere.

Gotta get you locked in debt before you even get out of the gate.

Anybody else will just get thrown in prison with the 3 or 4 million other men.

Zippyjuan
02-03-2014, 02:04 PM
Interesting perhaps that most "well paying jobs" which built the middle class were either union- type jobs (construction/ manufacturing) or government ones.

eduardo89
02-03-2014, 02:05 PM
I'm thankful for NAFTA's TN visas.

timosman
09-28-2015, 05:13 AM
Here's the full video of Perot vs. Al Gore.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XEziSYRqhU

Al Gore is "great" in this video. ;) I was actually looking for Gore saying "American worker is ready to compete in the global workplace" which I have seen him saying in the past, but could not find it in this video. What is also interesting they both talk directly to the viewer looking straight at the camera at times. This is pretty powerful but for some reason nobody uses this technique nowadays. Does anybody know why ?