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View Full Version : Sign waving sabotage? St Pete.




ckhagen
11-29-2007, 05:05 PM
Inside job?
Ok, I'm NOT usually into claiming "conspiracy" over things, but this just rubbed me the wrong way.

Anyone else on here who participated in one of the two attempted sign wavings at the Mahaffey around 6pm and after the announcement to take 16 people over during the time between the debate and the speech?
I would like to hear from ya'll.

Apparently, what happened that landed us in a nearly failed mission and precarious position with local police, happened TWICE. Not just once, but at BOTH attempted signs wavings and instigated by the SAME person both times.

I'm really glad I found out that the second attempt was not the first time it happened because it's something we could learn from and attempt to preempt in the future.

It's pretty difficult to describe exactly what happened. I'll try if I have to, but I would like to hear from people who were there on the bus with us.

A Ron Paul Rebel
11-29-2007, 05:12 PM
say something of what happened!!!

Lord Xar
11-29-2007, 05:15 PM
yeah... what are you talking about :)

ckhagen
11-29-2007, 05:17 PM
Well, one particular VERY vocal, aggressive "supporter" basically attempted to lead us on a suicide mission behind barricades and sparking a verbal feud with police who began to swarm us. This supporter tried to make it sound like he knew what we were supposed to be doing, but in reality he didn't have a clue. The cops were getting very testy over the situation (they were really just doing their job IMO) and he was inciting it and acting like he was speaking for all of us. He was trying to claim to them that we had been authorized to go into the debate hall (yeah freaking right! how totally BOGUS). Then we ended up sign waving/cheering on a camera-free corner with no media where cars were exiting the debate. Had it not been for a few of us (myself included) declaring mutiny on his bogus leadership, we might have ended up in jail, for no good reason at that.

If this had happened once... I would understand. But it didn't. It happened twice with the same results both times and at the hands of the same person. I just don't think that was a coincidence and neither does anyone else who I've spoked to, who was there.

DrNoZone
11-29-2007, 05:27 PM
So why were you all following this fool like lemmings?

ckhagen
11-29-2007, 05:30 PM
Well, we weren't!
We had no idea where we were supposed to be (given no instructions) and people were looking for direction. I tried to step up and make a directional decision based on the knowledge I had, but he basically ran out in front and started very loudly overruling it. Most of us figured out pretty quickly that he had no clue what he was doing. But he made us look extremely belligerent in the process.

Sandy
11-29-2007, 05:36 PM
Well, one particular VERY vocal, aggressive "supporter" basically attempted to lead us on a suicide mission behind barricades and sparking a verbal feud with police who began to swarm us. This supporter tried to make it sound like he knew what we were supposed to be doing, but in reality he didn't have a clue. The cops were getting very testy over the situation (they were really just doing their job IMO) and he was inciting it and acting like he was speaking for all of us. He was trying to claim to them that we had been authorized to go into the debate hall (yeah freaking right! how totally BOGUS). Then we ended up sign waving/cheering on a camera-free corner with no media where cars were exiting the debate. Had it not been for a few of us (myself included) declaring mutiny on his bogus leadership, we might have ended up in jail, for no good reason at that.

If this had happened once... I would understand. But it didn't. It happened twice with the same results both times and at the hands of the same person. I just don't think that was a coincidence and neither does anyone else who I've spoked to, who was there.

Did this happen to be a young guy? Wondering if it is the same person I was thinking of. Was at the events, but not at the after debate sign waiving. Stayed at the Palladium between the debate and RP's appearance. Did everyone tell him to stop the nonsense and blatant lies?

derdy
11-29-2007, 05:38 PM
Well, one particular VERY vocal, aggressive "supporter" basically attempted to lead us on a suicide mission behind barricades and sparking a verbal feud with police who began to swarm us. This supporter tried to make it sound like he knew what we were supposed to be doing, but in reality he didn't have a clue. The cops were getting very testy over the situation (they were really just doing their job IMO) and he was inciting it and acting like he was speaking for all of us. He was trying to claim to them that we had been authorized to go into the debate hall (yeah freaking right! how totally BOGUS). Then we ended up sign waving/cheering on a camera-free corner with no media where cars were exiting the debate. Had it not been for a few of us (myself included) declaring mutiny on his bogus leadership, we might have ended up in jail, for no good reason at that.

If this had happened once... I would understand. But it didn't. It happened twice with the same results both times and at the hands of the same person. I just don't think that was a coincidence and neither does anyone else who I've spoked to, who was there.

COINTELPRO isn't a "conspiracy theory."

derdy
11-29-2007, 05:43 PM
Here's undercover police dressed as protestors in Ottawa, Canada trying to incite a riot during the NAU summit.

http://infowars.net/articles/august2007/220807Provocateurs_SPP.htm

kimosabi
11-29-2007, 05:46 PM
If you have problems with the cops, do what this guy did ==> http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz1kbmDqsyc

jcbraithwaite7
11-29-2007, 06:00 PM
I was at The Palladium. They announced over the mike that they wanted 16 volunteers to go do a sign wave. Everyone hopped on the bus.

I stayed at the theater because I was at the sign waving at Vinoy earlier and it was a dark corner that people couldn't even see us. I didn't want to miss the speech when Ron Paul got to the Palladium. I don't think it was a plant... I think it was just an over zealous supporter who tried to make the sign waving happen.

Geronimo
11-29-2007, 06:22 PM
I agree with Derdy. It sounds like an enemy within.

Divide and conquer.

Drknows
11-29-2007, 06:27 PM
Well good thing he failed. That wouldn't look good if Ron Paul supporters got arrested for causing a disturbance at the debates.


FAIL

Sandy
11-29-2007, 06:40 PM
Well good thing he failed. That wouldn't look good if Ron Paul supporters got arrested for causing a disturbance at the debates.


FAIL

Hey Drknows! There was a girl at the Palladium and Pioneer Park holding a sign that said 'Vote Yes for Dr. Know' on a sign, with the no emphasized. I love it.

Yes, thank goodness that failed, and twice. After the first time of people saying stuff to him, including I'm sure that you can't go into the Mehaffey, it makes me wonder.

jondisx
11-29-2007, 06:45 PM
you have to believe agent provocateurs will be out en masse

Cindy
11-29-2007, 07:17 PM
I got on that bus! lol What a blast yesterday was. I think I was one of the first or right behind you to split up the street. I thought the cops were being really cool about it.

I split up the street because that little elf man, didn't know where he was going and the trolley driver took us to a lame corner. I wanted to get down to where the cars were exiting the debate. Thats why my husband daughter and I bolted up the street.

Who was that elf dude anyway? He really was screwing with things that day.

Before the debate he was ordering everyone to stay on the south side of Pioneer Park. All the while, the Rudy people were on the east side of Mahaffey where all the cars were entering for the debate. Luckily, someone ran back to tell us about it. I tried to get the group of 50 to walk down to help them battle the Rudy group and only 6 of us ending up going down there to help the other RP supporters there, because the elf dude told the large group, " The bus will be coming to take us to Mahaffey. Do not leave.

I was like "who is this guy and what is his problem. The busses were coming by every ten minutes, it was only a few minutes away and it was an 1 1/2 before the debate.

We rocked it against the Rudy people and stayed out there chanting with our signs even when it started pouring rain.

It was so much fun!!

Anyway, I don't know who that elf dude was or why people felt like they had to listen to him.

The day was nuts and great. At times I felt like I was on the Poisiden adventure with the large group going the wrong way, and me always wanting to go off a different one with a smaller group.

I agree, there was no pre arrangment to get us inside of the baracades.

I wouldn't have argued it with the cops like some of them did.

I was happy to sign wave to the cars coming out for as long as we did.

ckhagen
11-29-2007, 09:46 PM
Did this happen to be a young guy? Wondering if it is the same person I was thinking of. Was at the events, but not at the after debate sign waiving. Stayed at the Palladium between the debate and RP's appearance. Did everyone tell him to stop the nonsense and blatant lies?

No, it was an older guy.

Personally I took the cops screaming at us to get out and multiplying as they were coming towards us as pretty intimidating. They were NOT out of bounds though and the ones who chose to deal directly with the situation and work out the details were VERY professional

But, I do think he contributed to a sort of "failure" because the entire point of the mission as far as I understood it (long prior to the moments where it was announced) was to attempt to draw media attention. But, we would have had to actually go down to where the media was and this guys distractions were IMO enough to keep that from happening by causing uneasiness within the group.

Btw, apparently some of the anti-war protesters that were on the corner where we ended up, prior to us arriving, ended up in jail by the end of the evening. It sounded like they crossed behind the barricades and didn't leave when directed to (only caught a bite of it on the news this morning). FWIW, they were peaceful while we were there. Not sure what happened after that.

Sandy
11-29-2007, 10:16 PM
No, it was an older guy.

Personally I took the cops screaming at us to get out and multiplying as they were coming towards us as pretty intimidating. They were NOT out of bounds though and the ones who chose to deal directly with the situation and work out the details were VERY professional

But, I do think he contributed to a sort of "failure" because the entire point of the mission as far as I understood it (long prior to the moments where it was announced) was to attempt to draw media attention. But, we would have had to actually go down to where the media was and this guys distractions were IMO enough to keep that from happening by causing uneasiness within the group.

Btw, apparently some of the anti-war protesters that were on the corner where we ended up, prior to us arriving, ended up in jail by the end of the evening. It sounded like they crossed behind the barricades and didn't leave when directed to (only caught a bite of it on the news this morning). FWIW, they were peaceful while we were there. Not sure what happened after that.

Older guy, wonder if it is same person who lead people AWAY from the Mehaffey originally BEFORE the debates, saying nobody is over there we need to go this way. Everyone just listened to him, well of course nobody was there when he and a few others got there because they were the first ones there! People were asked to sign wave at the 2 driveway entrances to the Mehaffey, but this guy led everyone away and was the rambunctious and loud type actually continuously telling people to follow him and NOT continue towards the Mehaffey. Everytime new people showed up, he told them no, no, don't go down there follow me and was very overbearing.

He actually came across to me as being a little unstable. I am going to take an educated guess and believe it is the same older guy you are talking about, and it was failure because the idea was to show support to the media and people who had tickets to the debate IN FRONT of the Mehaffey. This guy was pushy.

Zydeco
11-29-2007, 10:20 PM
COINTELPRO isn't a "conspiracy theory."

it sure ain't.

ckhagen
11-29-2007, 11:16 PM
Older guy, wonder if it is same person who lead people AWAY from the Mehaffey originally BEFORE the debates, saying nobody is over there we need to go this way. Everyone just listened to him, well of course nobody was there when he and a few others got there because they were the first ones there! People were asked to sign wave at the 2 driveway entrances to the Mehaffey, but this guy led everyone away and was the rambunctious and loud type actually continuously telling people to follow him and NOT continue towards the Mehaffey. Everytime new people showed up, he told them no, no, don't go down there follow me and was very overbearing.

He actually came across to me as being a little unstable. I am going to take an educated guess and believe it is the same older guy you are talking about, and it was failure because the idea was to show support to the media and people who had tickets to the debate IN FRONT of the Mehaffey. This guy was pushy.


I have a feeling we're probably talking about the same person :(
Your description of his MO is dead on. He was one of the loudest, most obnoxious, intimidating people I've ever run across and I don't live under a rock (involved in multiple activism causes). The sad part is that he actually commanded attention by seeming to have information. The lack of official information made that possible, but unforeseeable of course. I'm really disappointed that this ONE person managed to manipulate multiple attempts to get media attention into much less successful ventures.

Conspiracy or not, this is something we can learn from.

kimosabi
11-29-2007, 11:26 PM
Well, this needs to be learnt from.

The Meetup Groups Leaders need to be informed about this and come up with methods to combat COINTELPRO plants.

The Trick is for the Meetup groups to create small groups of true supporters to lead the larger groups and report back to the other groups.

How to deal with COINTELPRO!!!

http://www.amherst.co.uk/images/walkie-talkie-cobra-mt725.jpg

Sandy
11-30-2007, 12:00 AM
I have a feeling we're probably talking about the same person :(
Your description of his MO is dead on. He was one of the loudest, most obnoxious, intimidating people I've ever run across and I don't live under a rock (involved in multiple activism causes). The sad part is that he actually commanded attention by seeming to have information. The lack of official information made that possible, but unforeseeable of course. I'm really disappointed that this ONE person managed to manipulate multiple attempts to get media attention into much less successful ventures.

Conspiracy or not, this is something we can learn from.

Absolutely, think we should bring this to the attention of the meetup group leaders? Something for them to educate people about. For all we know this has happened elsewhere and done on purpose, and we may find there are similar stories. By the way, this guy was even chanting things like impeach Bush and impeach Cheney. I thought I was going to die right there on the spot, while he was leading the large group down the street who were chanting Ron Paul after every enunciation he made. This was a debate scenario, I was mortified. Not to mention is not something RP has promoted. He was one of the most obnoxious and intimidating people I have come across (and I have worked with some jerky doctors :eek:), and I really wonder who he was.

Mark
11-30-2007, 12:46 AM
COINTELPRO isn't a "conspiracy theory."

Yes, we all need to be VERY aware of this. Here and EVERYwhere.