EPA proposes restrictions for new wood stoves

[donnay]

Bear in mind: this coming from the agency who told thousands of first responders after 9/11 the air was safe to breathe.


EPA proposes restrictions for new wood stoves

FAIRBANKS, Alaska – The federal Environmental Protection Agency has proposed new standards for wood stoves that would reduce the maximum amount of fine particulate emissions allowed for new stoves sold in 2015 and 2019.

Maximum emissions would be reduced by one-third next year and by 80 percent in five years, the Fairbanks Daily News-Miner reported.

Fine particulate pollution is made up of solid particles and liquid droplets that measure 2.5 micrometers in diameter or less. The EPA currently certifies non-catalytic wood stoves if they produce less than 7.5 grams of fine particulate per hour.

Fine particulate absorbed by breathing has been linked to heart attacks, decreased lung function and premature death in people with heart or lung disease.

The proposed EPA regulations would reduce that to 4.5 grams per hour for stoves manufactured after the regulations go into place next year.

The standards would tighten again in 2019. New stoves could emit just 1.3 grams per hour.

Wood stoves already installed or for sale are not affected by the regulations, the EPA announced Friday.

The EPA in its announcement said dollars spent for compliance would be made up in medical cost savings.

Continued... (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/01/07/epa-proposes-new-restrictions-for-new-wood-stoves/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+foxnews%2Fmost-popular+%28Internal+-+Most+Popular+Content%29)

[Origanalist]

If you are a true patriot you will go out and buy one of these new wood stoves.

[tod evans]

Long live the local welding shop!

[phill4paul]

If you are a true patriot you will go out and buy one of these new wood stoves.

http://www.hearth.com/talk/attachments/patritot_ad-jpg.8715/

[JK/SEA]

cut the price of propane in half i might consider hooking up my furnace again....meanwhile it's 79.3 degrees in my house right now from my woodstove of 2 years.....

[GunnyFreedom]

Pretty soon, all exothermic reactions will be banned by regulation as contributing to entropy.

[Origanalist]

Pretty soon, all exothermic reactions will be banned by regulation as contributing to entropy.

I know I should remember this........

[GunnyFreedom]

I know I should remember this........

Heating of any kind will be disallowed because it contributes to the breakdown of the universe.

[oyarde]

If you are a true patriot you will go out and buy one of these new wood stoves.

How big is the tax credit ? :)

[Occam's Banana]

Toilets ... light bulbs ... wood stoves ...
Sam Adams is weeping in his grave ...

[Origanalist]

Toilets ... light bulbs ... wood stoves ...
Sam Adams is weeping in his grave ...

My guess is he got over grieving some time ago.

[Acala]

If you are a true patriot you will go out and buy one of these new wood stoves.
and immediately rip out the emission control elements.

[Occam's Banana]

My guess is he got over grieving some time ago.

I hope so. He deserves his rest. And all this pathetic, petty-bureaucratic dribble-drabble is beneath his dignity anyway.

It's enough to make one yearn for some good old-fashioned mail-fisted tyranny like the Intolerable Acts ...

[ClydeCoulter]

Ban forest fires!

[brushfire]

Ban forest fires!

Ban the EPA.

[Anti Federalist]

It will only be a matter of time before open flame is banned.

You watch.

I saw this coming years ago.

[Anti Federalist]

It will only be a matter of time before open flame is banned.

You watch.

I saw this coming years ago.

[69360]

cut the price of propane in half i might consider hooking up my furnace again....meanwhile it's 79.3 degrees in my house right now from my woodstove of 2 years.....

Propane just went way up here like 40 cents a gallon. It used to be somewhat cheap.


It will only be a matter of time before open flame is banned.

You watch.

I saw this coming years ago.

Maybe in some states. It will never fly in places like Maine and NH.

[GunnyFreedom]

It will only be a matter of time before open flame is banned.

You watch.

I saw this coming years ago.

I think I said this in #6... :p

[Anti Federalist]

Maybe in some states. It will never fly in places like Maine and NH.

Why?

These are the FedCoats we're talking about. What makes you think they will not impose these rules on our states?

And once they start the drumbeat "Woodsmoke causes cancer!" rest assured, your neighbors will turn you in to the smoke police the second you light a fire.

[69360]

Why?

These are the FedCoats we're talking about. What makes you think they will not impose these rules on our states?

And once they start the drumbeat "Woodsmoke causes cancer!" rest assured, your neighbors will turn you in to the smoke police the second you light a fire.

Something like 20% of Maine is heated by wood. Mostly because that's all people can afford. The backlash to the feds would be immense.

[donnay]

Something like 20% of Maine is heated by wood. Mostly because that's all people can afford. The backlash to the feds would be immense.

Almost 90% of the Americans where against TARP...see how well they listen or care?

[tod evans]

A good heavy stove without any EPA BS is something the local fabricator can build for you...A better product, supporting local talent and avoiding federal regulations.

I really hope this legislation drives consumers to support local guys in lieu of the box-stores...

[69360]

Almost 90% of the Americans where against TARP...see how well they listen or care?

Using a wood stove is something people do in their daily lives. TARP was more of an abstract concept to average people. Different ballgame.

[jbauer]

Propane just went way up here like 40 cents a gallon. It used to be somewhat cheap.



Maybe in some states. It will never fly in places like Maine and NH.

The EPA doesn't care. They've been doing shitty things like this for decades regardless of whom the regulations effect. This has been talked about for quite a few years but since we're now seeing numbers AND dates I've got to think this is actually going to happen. Guess its time to get my wood boiler now.

[Occam's Banana]

Using a wood stove is something people do in their daily lives. TARP was more of an abstract concept to average people. Different ballgame.

Using toilets and light bulbs are things people do in their daily lives, too.
And the vast majority of them didn't squawk before about those things.
I see no reason to think most of them will squawk now about this, either.
Not even the ones from Maine & New Hampshire ...

Also, I don't see what the "abstractness" of TARP has to do with anything.
Abstract or not, people were overwhelmingly & vehemently opposed to it.
The powers that be knew this - but it wen't through anyway.
Even if heavily opposed, why should this be any different?

[Anti Federalist]

Exactly.

This "whistling past the graveyard", "it won't happen here" nonchalance is one of the reasons we are in the mess we are in.


Using toilets and light bulbs are things people do in their daily lives, too.
And the vast majority of them didn't squawk before about those things.
I see no reason to think most of them will squawk now about this, either.
Not even the ones from Maine & New Hampshire ...

Also, I don't see what the "abstractness" of TARP has to do with anything.
Abstract or not, people were overwhelmingly & vehemently opposed to it.
The powers that be knew this - but it wen't through anyway.
Even if heavily opposed, why should this be any different?

[69360]

Using toilets and light bulbs are things people do in their daily lives, too.
And the vast majority of them didn't squawk before about those things.
I see no reason to think most of them will squawk now about this, either.
Not even the ones from Maine & New Hampshire ...

Also, I don't see what the "abstractness" of TARP has to do with anything.
Abstract or not, people were overwhelmingly & vehemently opposed to it.
The powers that be knew this - but it wen't through anyway.
Even if heavily opposed, why should this be any different?

Tarp didn't affect people's everyday life in a direct fashion, they knew it was bad, but weren't freezing there ass off or going broke buying oil instead of wood. Taking away people's heat source will get them up in arms. I virtually guarantee the northeastern governors would tell the feds to piss off and refuse to enforce it. LePage surely would and has told the feds to piss off.

[Occam's Banana]

Tarp didn't affect people's everyday life in a direct fashion, they knew it was bad, but weren't freezing there ass off or going broke buying oil instead of wood. Taking away people's heat source will get them up in arms. I virtually guarantee the northeastern governors would tell the feds to piss off and refuse to enforce it. LePage surely would and has told the feds to piss off.

Have you even bothered reading the OP?
LePage et al. ain't gonna do shit about this,
(And huffing and puffing doesn't count.)

[coastie]

<<<is glad has no use for wood stove. My neighbor has one, and it's at least 80 degrees in his house. That's way too damn hot. Older house, maybe they need it.

It got down to 19 here the other night, on the beach. I woke up at 530 and saw the thermometer on the porch. Inside my house: 65. No heat on. Three holes in the house(window ac units I still haven't taken out for winter).


But yeah, fuck the EPA. Maybe some of you northerners need to move south. I never will understand why you types put yourselves through 6+ months of that shit....

[Henry Rogue]

<<<is glad has no use for wood stove. My neighbor has one, and it's at least 80 degrees in his house. That's way too damn hot. Older house, maybe they need it.

It got down to 19 here the other night, on the beach. I woke up at 530 and saw the thermometer on the porch. Inside my house: 65. No heat on. Three holes in the house(window ac units I still haven't taken out for winter).


But yeah, fuck the EPA. Maybe some of you northerners need to move south. I never will understand why you types put yourselves through 6+ months of that shit....
Damn, 19 would feel down right balmy, right now. If it ever gets up to 30, i'll be in a T-shirt and shorts.

[69360]

Have you even bothered reading the OP?
LePage et al. ain't gonna do shit about this,
(And huffing and puffing doesn't count.)

The thread went off on a tangent discussing taking away wood stoves altogether.

[donnay]

The thread went off on a tangent discussing taking away wood stoves altogether.

Yes because you think people getting angry will cause government to back down. TARP was an example of how government does not listen nor do they care if people are pissed at their decisions. That's how tyranny works.

[tod evans]

Yes because you think people getting angry will cause government to back down. TARP was an example of how government do not listen nor do they care if people are pissed at their decisions. That's how tyranny works.

Governments do not care because the people do not string up the afflicted agents.

In fact the people sit on their hands and let those same agents fine and imprison them with impunity...:mad:

[donnay]

Governments do not care because the people do not string up the afflicted agents.

In fact the people sit on their hands and let those same agents fine and imprison them with impunity...:mad:

Oh absolutely. There is a reason why they have done things incrementally. There is a definite reason why most of this tyranny has taken 100 years to be implemented--they had to wait for a whole generation to become docile (through fluoridated water (http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/08/paul-fassa/it-makes-people-dumb-docile-and-sick/) and government indoctrination--Public schools) before putting the screws to us on warp speed as they are currently doing.

[osan]

This has nothing to do with environmental protection and everything with exercise of control for its own sake. There is probably some cadre of hand-wringing boobs at EPA gottten all frenetic about "the planet" - self-hating, and therefore hating of humanity in general - and cannot do enough to squelch normal survival activity. Or perhaps they are seeking to do their part as self-haters to destroy the US economy because, after all, is America not responsible for the sorry state in which the world finds itself?

There is also the centralization effect: drive people away from at least being self sufficient in terms of heating fuel and towards fuels the manufacture and provision of which they have no control such as bottled gases, line-gases, heating oil, electric.

And of course we observe that those same boobs either did not consider or have purposely ignored the fact that if those regulations result in stoves that do not produce enough heat, many will not abandon them for means that consume centrally provided fuels, but will either build their own or go to the corner fabrication shop and have one built, thereby giving birth to yet another black market. What then? Send entry teams into people's houses to shoot their dogs and drag away their children because they had the temerity to possess and use a stove that actually kept them warm in the brutal winters of Michigan's UP?

What freaks. The worst of it is us, though, as we meekly and lazily accept yet another stomp of the boot upon our territory.

[Occam's Banana]

The thread went off on a tangent discussing taking away wood stoves altogether.

You mean you went off on a tangent about "taking away wood stoves altogether." No one else did.

[69360]

You mean you went off on a tangent about "taking away wood stoves altogether." No one else did.

Uh? no



It will only be a matter of time before open flame is banned.

You watch.

I saw this coming years ago.

[jbauer]

<<<is glad has no use for wood stove. My neighbor has one, and it's at least 80 degrees in his house. That's way too damn hot. Older house, maybe they need it.

It got down to 19 here the other night, on the beach. I woke up at 530 and saw the thermometer on the porch. Inside my house: 65. No heat on. Three holes in the house(window ac units I still haven't taken out for winter).


But yeah, fuck the EPA. Maybe some of you northerners need to move south. I never will understand why you types put yourselves through 6+ months of that shit....

For the same reason you deal with all the bad things in your area. Everyone has em. There's advantages and disadvantages to living anywhere.

[jbauer]

The thread went off on a tangent discussing taking away wood stoves altogether.

You're right, it wont "take them away" it will put them out of the price point where people who need them can afford them. Particulate "scrubers" cost money. Right now switching from a normal model to an "efficient" model doubles the price.

Oh an FYI there's nothing "efficient" about heating. Its either hot or its not....I switched to an "efficient" stove and it was the worst decision I've ever made.

[tod evans]

You're right, it wont "take them away" it will put them out of the price point where people who need them can afford them.

Only if the stove purchaser patronizes a government regulated stove distributor..

These several hundred dollar EPA compliant add-ons aren't required to have a functional stove, in fact after a short amount of time they'll inhibit stove function..

[oyarde]

I enjoy these articles :) , I just buy a couple more boxes of ammo , wink at my stove , tell her not to worry, Daddy will not let the bad people take her,lol

[coastie]

For the same reason you deal with all the bad things in your area. Everyone has em. There's advantages and disadvantages to living anywhere.

Oh, thanks for those pearls of wisdom.

[oyarde]

<<<is glad has no use for wood stove. My neighbor has one, and it's at least 80 degrees in his house. That's way too damn hot. Older house, maybe they need it.

It got down to 19 here the other night, on the beach. I woke up at 530 and saw the thermometer on the porch. Inside my house: 65. No heat on. Three holes in the house(window ac units I still haven't taken out for winter).


But yeah, fuck the EPA. Maybe some of you northerners need to move south. I never will understand why you types put yourselves through 6+ months of that shit....

But my soil is perfect for growing the most exquisite melons :)

[oyarde]

cut the price of propane in half i might consider hooking up my furnace again....meanwhile it's 79.3 degrees in my house right now from my woodstove of 2 years.....

Nat Gas , Propane , Heating oil are all very high , electric too some places .

[oyarde]

Something like 20% of Maine is heated by wood. Mostly because that's all people can afford. The backlash to the feds would be immense.

I never could figure out how people up there afford Heating Oil .....

[coastie]

But my soil is perfect for growing the most exquisite melons :)


Oh, so is mine...and I bet they grow longer.:p

[Occam's Banana]

You mean you went off on a tangent about "taking away wood stoves altogether." No one else did.


Uh? no

Uh, yes - unless you spell "wood stoves" very differently from everyone else ...

[oyarde]

Oh, so is mine...and I bet they grow longer.:p

Well I will think of something else when I thaw out .

[pcosmar]

I never could figure out how people up there afford Heating Oil .....
Because it used to be comparable to coal,, but with ease of use. Fuel oil used to be cheap heat.
Coal was the common heat source when I was growing up,, but now there are no suppliers anywhere close.

I have an oil furnace.. but at the price of oil it would take $1k a month (at least) to heat my place.

[jbauer]

Only if the stove purchaser patronizes a government regulated stove distributor..

These several hundred dollar EPA compliant add-ons aren't required to have a functional stove, in fact after a short amount of time they'll inhibit stove function..

There are many problems that I see with building your own. 1. If the guberment finds out where it was made the local shop owner is going down in flames. 2. If you don't build it right and end up carbonmonxiding someone to death you'll probably be found guilty of at least manslaughter. If they're your kids and any survive they'll surely be taken away. 3. If you burn down your house with a "homemade" version I'd be willing to bet your insurance wouldn't pick up the tab for the house. That's all fine and dandy for those who own 100% their house and have the ability to build another but anyone with a mortgage is in a different situation. 4. It wouldn't surprise me to see insurance companies put riders on policies in the near future for incompliant stoves so they can get out of paying for claims.

basically the EPA has us all by the balls and there's nothing that can be done about it.

[oyarde]

Because it used to be comparable to coal,, but with ease of use. Fuel oil used to be cheap heat.
Coal was the common heat source when I was growing up,, but now there are no suppliers anywhere close.

I have an oil furnace.. but at the price of oil it would take $1k a month (at least) to heat my place.

Yeah , I know it used to be cheap , Dad had one in the 60's , but now at over $3 a gallon I cannot fathom avg .people in Maine making enough to not mostly just be using wood....

[69360]

I never could figure out how people up there afford Heating Oil .....


Yeah , I know it used to be cheap , Dad had one in the 60's , but now at over $3 a gallon I cannot fathom people in Maine making enough to not mostly just be using wood

It's not just heating oil. If your tank is outside here like most people who don't have a basement, you can't use heating oil. It gels in the cold we get. You have to use K1 kerosene and it's $4.15 a gallon delivered right now.

[oyarde]

It's not just heating oil. If your tank is outside here like most people who don't have a basement, you can't use heating oil. It gels in the cold we get. You have to use K1 kerosene and it's $4.15 a gallon delivered right now.

They still sell K1 at my locallly owned chain of gas stations , and it is over $4 if you pick up your own , I doubt you can even get it delivered from the CO OP.

[tod evans]

There are many problems that I see with building your own. 1. If the guberment finds out where it was made the local shop owner is going down in flames.
When did it become a "crime" to hire a craftsman to build anything?
I'm not buying this...


2. If you don't build it right and end up carbonmonxiding someone to death you'll probably be found guilty of at least manslaughter. If they're your kids and any survive they'll surely be taken away.
Once again not buying it, any blooming idiot knows if their stove is backdrafting and I assert that the catalytic converters that the EPA mandates are a much more restrictive device than anything a local shop would build.


3. If you burn down your house with a "homemade" version I'd be willing to bet your insurance wouldn't pick up the tab for the house. That's all fine and dandy for those who own 100% their house and have the ability to build another but anyone with a mortgage is in a different situation.
You may have a point with this but I've gotta question the hundreds of thousands of traditional masonry fireboxes in existance...

4. It wouldn't surprise me to see insurance companies put riders on policies in the near future for incompliant stoves so they can get out of paying for claims.
Once again if "homemade" isn't insurable what about masonry?



basically the EPA has us all by the balls and there's nothing that can be done about it.

Bullshit!

The EPA is going after stove manufacturers who sell to box stores.

As an end consumer you have other options.

[pcosmar]

It's not just heating oil. If your tank is outside here like most people who don't have a basement, you can't use heating oil. It gels in the cold we get. You have to use K1 kerosene and it's $4.15 a gallon delivered right now.

I have an outside tank.. We put a little Diesel in for warming the place back up,, and when Honey is feeling chilly.
Off Road diesel,, which is #2 fuel oil. ($3.75 presently)

it works fine at sub zero temps.

[oyarde]

I have an outside tank.. We put a little Diesel in for warming the place back up,, and when Honey is feeling chilly.
Off Road diesel,, which is #2 fuel oil. ($3.75 presently)

it works fine at sub zero temps.

Yeah and the tractor diesel is cheaper.

[pcosmar]

Yeah and the tractor diesel is cheaper.

Tractor diesel=Off Road Diesel (Non Road Tax)
it is #2 fuel oil. (#1 is a bit thinner)

I have been running it in my furnace for years (when I run the furnace) and it works in all Upper Peninsula Michigan temps.

[oyarde]

Tractor diesel=Off Road Diesel (Non Road Tax)
it is #2 fuel oil. (#1 is a bit thinner)

I have been running it in my furnace for years (when I run the furnace) and it works in all Upper Peninsula Michigan temps.

Around here and the next two states South , usually about 30 cents cheaper .

[pcosmar]

Around here and the next two states South , usually about 30 cents cheaper .

The red should be a LOT cheaper than the green.. The only difference (other than the dye) is road tax. and Tax is more than 30 cents.

[coastie]

Damn, 19 would feel down right balmy, right now. If it ever gets up to 30, i'll be in a T-shirt and shorts.


With the humidity we have down here, I assure you balmy would not be the word you would use.

I've been in 19 in Maine NH, etc, and Colorado, and 19 in Florida...HUGE difference. This cold goes right through you, and it doesn't have to hit teens or even twenties for it to go right through you.


I've been working on the wife's piece of shit Dodge van for the last week. I think today is the first day I haven't been able to freeze water on my ass cheeks, even after being inside for hours after.


Sounds like someone needs a wood stove for his butt, lol.

[pcosmar]

I've been working on the wife's piece of shit Dodge van for the last week. I think today is the first day I haven't been able to freeze water on my ass cheeks, even after being inside for hours after.



Lol.
I remember. When it got to 60 in the Keys we were wearing coats and laughing at the crazy tourists in shorts.
After acclimating to the weather here,, after weeks of sub zero, 20 feels warm.

[jbauer]

When did it become a "crime" to hire a craftsman to build anything?
I'm not buying this...


Once again not buying it, any blooming idiot knows if their stove is backdrafting and I assert that the catalytic converters that the EPA mandates are a much more restrictive device than anything a local shop would build.


You may have a point with this but I've gotta question the hundreds of thousands of traditional masonry fireboxes in existance...

Once again if "homemade" isn't insurable what about masonry?




Bullshit!

The EPA is going after stove manufacturers who sell to box stores.

As an end consumer you have other options.

Its a crime to do many things by your self without first getting permission from "the man" or buying directly from them or their indirectly hired agents. Go make a gun see what happens? Go pump energy out of your ground, see what happens? Build a house, build it without having it checked in between contractors. Heck I live in a RED state and they want to come charge us to check our fire extinguishers. Heck its a freaking CRIME to not have health insurance punishable by a fine and/or tax.

As for home insurance. You watch, if we were to see people building their own fire boxes you'd and there were to be any problems the insurance companies would get out from underneath it by saying you were negligent.

The EPA sees all, knows all and has the ability to permit or deny all. The EPA closed down a farm where we lived for there being to many "nutrients" (aka manure) in the creek that flowed off the backside of their property. They required the family to sell the animals and close their farm because to much manure was flowing through the creek. Only after they closed the farm did the EPA conclude that it was deer pooping in the creek that happened to flow right by a large state park.

[69360]

I have an outside tank.. We put a little Diesel in for warming the place back up,, and when Honey is feeling chilly.
Off Road diesel,, which is #2 fuel oil. ($3.75 presently)

it works fine at sub zero temps.

You're taking a chance there, but if an oil burner isn't your primary heat source, it's probably not a big deal. Diesel or #2 heating oil, they are the same, gels at -10. The paraffin separates out and clogs your filter.

We were at -16 here last week. We've seen as low as -27.

The fuel oil suppliers sell winter blend which is 50/50 K1/#2 which is good to around -18. Some people here take a chance with that.

[pcosmar]

The fuel oil suppliers sell winter blend which is 50/50 K1/#2 which is good to around -18. Some people here take a chance with that.

When I first moved back up here,, I was buying fuel. The supplier tried to sell me #1,,(at a higher price). I bought the #2 and have never had an issue in 8 years.

And it gets cold here. It ran fine a -20 just recently. Been running Off Road diesel for the last few years. but wood is my main heat source..

[Anti Federalist]

On my outside tanks I used to use the anti gel additive truckers use.

Worked fine for me in York Co. Maine and a hell of a lot cheaper than K-1 winter blend.

[Anti Federalist]

Trump grants two year reprieve.

Another feather in his cap as far as I'm concerned.

EPA Takes Steps to Improve Regulations for Wood Heaters

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/epa-takes-steps-to-improve-regulations-wood-heaters

[Swordsmyth]

Trump grants two year reprieve.

Another feather in his cap as far as I'm concerned.

EPA Takes Steps to Improve Regulations for Wood Heaters

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/epa-takes-steps-to-improve-regulations-wood-heaters

Hopefully the new regulations in two years will be an improvement over what there is now.

Maybe he can do something like he did with "High Speed" dishwashers.

[Anti Federalist]

Hopefully the new regulations in two years will be an improvement over what there is now.

Maybe he can do something like he did with "High Speed" dishwashers.

The fatwas that were going to go intro effect on 20 May of this year, would have de facto banned all new woodstoves, as there is no current or short term technology that would pass the 2 gram an hour "allowed" emission rate.

It also would have banned selling, trading or repairing an older "non compliant" stove.