Response from Politicans on my Request to Opt-Out of the System

[lx43]

I've requested that politicians in my state propose legislation allowing people who wish to leave the system (i.e., opt-out of all taxes and regulation) be permitted to do so without harassment from the govt.

Here is the response I've gotten from 2 state senators.

Politicians 1 Response
Ok so we will cancel the police, fire department, and 9-1-1 for you
Tomorrow you can walk because the roads are off limits to all who opt but don't worry because you can walk as fast as you would like because limit to walking
Sent from my iPhone

Politicians 2 Response

Thanks for your email. The short answer to your request is that neither the US Constitution nor the state Constitution envision a cafeteria form of citizenship. Moreover, state government is not free under the US Constitution to create different categories of citizenship. A person, however, can leave our country, go to a US Consulate, renounce his citizenship, and be free of obligations of being a United States citizen.

[Icymudpuppy]

I'd be cool with Politician 1's response. So long as they really do leave me alone on my land.

[lx43]

I'd be cool with Politician 1's response. So long as they really do leave me alone on my land.


I would too, I responded back agreed. Make it happen! lol

[ghengis86]

Pol 2 is wrong I believe. Uncle Sam reserves the right to your income for 10 years after you renounce.

[KCIndy]

I admire you for actually taking this to the politicians... but....

You actually think your jailers are going to give you the keys to your cage? Bwaa HaHaHaHaHaHaHAAAAAA!!!!

and...

Now you're on "The List." :eek::eek:

[FrankRep]

The best way to "opt-out" of the system is to move to a deserted island.


How to Live on a Deserted Island
http://www.wikihow.com/Live-on-a-Deserted-Island

[Christian Liberty]

I'd be cool with Politician 1's response. So long as they really do leave me alone on my land.

You technically couldn't even walk... the government would pretend that it owned the sidewalks too...

[Czolgosz]

You don't request freedom.

[lx43]

I admire you for actually taking this to the politicians... but....

You actually think your jailers are going to give you the keys to your cage? Bwaa HaHaHaHaHaHaHAAAAAA!!!!

and...

Now you're on "The List." :eek::eek:

Technically I know its stupid Kcindy but if enough people do it some politicians would take up promoting it and if enough promote it the media will talk about it.

Here is a recent article from Walter Williams.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/walter-e-williams/2014/01/02/walter-e-williams-column-there-are-irreconciliable-differences-be

[KCIndy]

Pol 2 is wrong I believe. Uncle Sam reserves the right to your income for 10 years after you renounce.

Correct.... or as good as.

And if we can't leave for free? We're slaves.

http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Expatriation-Tax

"Land of the Free" my ass.... :mad:



Expatriation on or after June 16, 2008

If you expatriated after June 16, 2008, the new IRC 877A expatriation rules apply to you if any of the following statements apply.

Your average annual net income tax for the 5 years ending before the date of expatriation or termination of residency is more than a specified amount that is adjusted for inflation ($147,000 for 2011, $151,000 for 2012, and $155,000 for 2013).
Your net worth is $2 million or more on the date of your expatriation or termination of residency.
You fail to certify on Form 8854 that you have complied with all U.S. federal tax obligations for the 5 years preceding the date of your expatriation or termination of residency.

[lx43]

You don't request freedom.


Eventually enough people will get so tired of the govt there will be violence I think. Might as well ask them to allow us to opt-out first and then if they don't comply take step 2.

[lx43]

Correct.... or as good as.

And if we can't leave for free? We're slaves.

http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Expatriation-Tax

"Land of the Free" my ass.... :mad:

That was my response back to Politician 2 basically is thanks for letting me I'm a slave.

[bunklocoempire]

So tick #1 is cool with waived gas tax for those who walk?

"This gas is for my lawnmower, my friend who has opted in is delivering it to my property, can I get a rebate? Whaddaya mean no!? So it's not really about opting in or out now is it?"

[KCIndy]

Technically I know its stupid Kcindy but if enough people do it some politicians would take up promoting it and if enough promote it the media will talk about it.

Here is a recent article from Walter Williams.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/walter-e-williams/2014/01/02/walter-e-williams-column-there-are-irreconciliable-differences-be


Oh, I agree.

To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you or mocking you. To the contrary, I admire you for pushing this forward. But being the cynical chap that I am... well.... :D


And I truly love Walter Williams. I would love to see that guy run for president, but he's way too smart to take the job.

[KCIndy]

The best way to "opt-out" of the system is to move to a deserted island.


How to Live on a Deserted Island
http://www.wikihow.com/Live-on-a-Deserted-Island

Don't forget to pay off the Feds first, or they'll send a drone after you... ;)

[FrankRep]

Correct.... or as good as.

And if we can't leave for free? We're slaves.

http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Expatriation-Tax

"Land of the Free" my ass.... :mad:

The 1960s was a terrible decade.



The first law to authorize taxation of former citizens was passed in 1966; it created Internal Revenue Code Section 877, which allowed the U.S.-source income of former citizens to be taxed for up to 10 years following the date of their loss of citizenship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriation_tax




Back in 1966 Congress enacted the Foreign Investors Tax Act of 1966, signed into law by Lyndon B. Johnson. Essentially expatriates were subject to U.S. tax on their U.S.-source income at normal U.S. tax rates for a full 10 years following their expatriation.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/23/expatriation-exit-tax-limbaugh-obamacare-personal-finance-robert-wood.html

[lx43]

Oh, I agree.

To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you or mocking you. To the contrary, I admire you for pushing this forward. But being the cynical chap that I am... well.... :D


And I truly love Walter Williams. I would love to see that guy run for president, but he's way too smart to take the job.

I hope more people get reported for opting out! :) I'd love to see millions demand to opt out because less face it getting 2 politicians a year elected to office would take another 100 years before we'd have the majority to reverse things and by then I fear its too late.

[oyarde]

I'd be cool with Politician 1's response. So long as they really do leave me alone on my land.

Yeah and number 2 had an idea , :) Cafeteria style citizenship , lol , I may be interested in that , I will probably take the farmer/peasant bronze plan , pay the least for the least services , these people are smarter than I would have guessed , lol

[oyarde]

The 1960s was a terrible decade.



The first law to authorize taxation of former citizens was passed in 1966; it created Internal Revenue Code Section 877, which allowed the U.S.-source income of former citizens to be taxed for up to 10 years following the date of their loss of citizenship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriation_tax




Back in 1966 Congress enacted the Foreign Investors Tax Act of 1966, signed into law by Lyndon B. Johnson. Essentially expatriates were subject to U.S. tax on their U.S.-source income at normal U.S. tax rates for a full 10 years following their expatriation.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/23/expatriation-exit-tax-limbaugh-obamacare-personal-finance-robert-wood.html
Johnson did terrible , terrible harm to my Country .

[oyarde]

You don't request freedom.

That is true , you want it ? You have to just take Liberty .

[Feeding the Abscess]

https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1/1528675_342379332566570_1490665208_n.jpg

"...If "we are the government," then anything a government does to an individual is not only just and untyrannical but also "voluntary" on the part of the individual concerned. If the government has incurred a huge public debt which must be paid by taxing one group for the benefit of another, this reality of burden is obscured by saying that "we owe it to ourselves"; if the government conscripts a man, or throws him into jail for dissident opinion, then he is "doing it to himself" and, therefore, nothing untoward has occurred. Under this reasoning, any Jews murdered by the Nazi government were not murdered; instead, they must have "committed suicide," since they were the government (which was democratically chosen), and, therefore, anything the government did to them was voluntary on their part...."

- Murray Rothbard, from Anatomy of the State

[Teenager For Ron Paul]

I think this is pretty thought provoking, really.
http://i.imgur.com/4xbBs.jpg

[Xenliad]

Someone should do a parody of the Declaration of Independence and rewrite it to the Polite Request of Independence.

[Danke]

Gas tax to pay for roads, gets a little tricky if you drive an electric vehicle.

Property taxes to pay for the curb/sidewalk in front of your home.

Sales tax for some things like defense.

You can already opt out of income taxes by not engaging if federally connected activities. The income tax is an excise tax (i.e. a privilege tax).

[oyarde]

Gas tax to pay for roads, gets a little tricky if you drive an electric vehicle.

Property taxes to pay for the curb/sidewalk in front of your home.

Sales tax for some things like defense.

You can already opt out of income taxes by not engaging if federally connected activities. The income tax is an excise tax (i.e. a privilege tax).
I have no need for curbs , sidewalks , or really defense ( nobody can invade me except maybe Illinois and we could wipe them all out before they got one County deep , lol) ....

[vickersvimy]

I don't see why individuals should be allowed to. How would that even work? It just leads to freeman on the land bullshit and innocents end up getting hurt.

[idiom]

Staying is opting in.

Getting out is opting out.

You can try to live in any country you want to, just don't expect to be treated like you were there first.

[oyarde]

Staying is opting in.

Getting out is opting out.

You can try to live in any country you want to, just don't expect to be treated like you were there first.

Yeah , I will just stay here .

[Matthew5]

Politicians 1 Response
Ok so we will cancel the police, fire department, and 9-1-1 for you
Tomorrow you can walk because the roads are off limits to all who opt but don't worry because you can walk as fast as you would like because limit to walking
Sent from my iPhone

Someone should write a TXT SPK version of the Declaration and the U.S. Constitution. At least he/she spelled out "you".

[Grubb556]

I think politician number 1 messed up because, if everyone did that well then we would be victorious.

[ClydeCoulter]

Well THEN, damnit....


I think this is pretty thought provoking, really.
http://i.imgur.com/4xbBs.jpg

[Zippyjuan]

Gas tax to pay for roads, gets a little tricky if you drive an electric vehicle.

Property taxes to pay for the curb/sidewalk in front of your home.

Sales tax for some things like defense.

You can already opt out of income taxes by not engaging if federally connected activities. The income tax is an excise tax (i.e. a privilege tax).

My brother was in the Army stationed in Germany and living with a family there quite a few years ago. There were no local taxes in this small town but if something needed fixed, the residents had to come up with the money to pay for it all at once. A water pipe broke and everybody on the street had to come up with $6000 each. They get an assessment to repave roads and the like.

[Czolgosz]

Eventually enough people will get so tired of the govt there will be violence I think. Might as well ask them to allow us to opt-out first and then if they don't comply take step 2.

Reasonable enough.

[tod evans]

My brother was in the Army stationed in Germany and living with a family there quite a few years ago. There were no local taxes in this small town but if something needed fixed, the residents had to come up with the money to pay for it all at once. A water pipe broke and everybody on the street had to come up with $6000 each. They get an assessment to repave roads and the like.

The average well here in the Ozarks cost less than $5k to sink..

I've gotta call BS on the $6k per person to fix a friggin pipe.

[Czolgosz]

Free people need to live within a reasonable proximity of one another in order to provide a militia and common defense.


But...I still have watered down beer and sitcoms to watch.

[DamianTV]

The average well here in the Ozarks cost less than $5k to sink..

I've gotta call BS on the $6k per person to fix a friggin pipe.

Could have been a Govt Employee, you know, $8,000 hammers and $12,500 toilet seat...

[tod evans]

I've requested that politicians in my state propose legislation allowing people who wish to leave the system (i.e., opt-out of all taxes and regulation) be permitted to do so without harassment from the govt.



If it pleases you m'lord may I be free at your will? http://www.websophist.com/Puking_SmileyA.gif

[Czolgosz]

The average well here in the Ozarks cost less than $5k to sink..

I've gotta call BS on the $6k per person to fix a friggin pipe.


Yup.

[libertarianMoney]

If it pleases you m'lord may I be free at your will? http://www.websophist.com/Puking_SmileyA.gif

I think this says it all.

Sheez....
I have to ask permission to leave.
I have to ask permission to not be a citizen.
I need to sell myself to another owner before getting permission.
I can still get taxed after not being a citizen
(By this country and my new masters)
They can still draft me to die in a war (for ten years).
Mmmm... Sweet freedom.

Teaches me to let my mom give birth to me in America...

[jtap]

I'd be cool with Politician 1's response. So long as they really do leave me alone on my land.

You mean on their land.

[NorfolkPCSolutions]

You don't request freedom.

Such a great post, I want you to have this piece of bacon.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Made20bacon.png

[Acala]

I don't see why individuals should be allowed to. How would that even work? It just leads to freeman on the land bullshit and innocents end up getting hurt.

Society is a compromise. There are burdens associated with being part of a society and there are benefits. Human beings have always been social creatures because the benefits of a properly structured society outweigh the burdens. Paleolithic bands stayed together because each member determined it was more beneficail than burdensome to do so. If the balance changed, they could simply walk away. Any band that imposed an unfair burden on the members would disintegrate through attrition. The same dynamic should apply now.

If each individual had the undisputed right to peacefully secede from any government entity - losing the benefits granted and the burdens imposed by that government - then any government that strayed away from the proper balance of benefits and burdens would disintegrate and be replaced by one that held to the balance. (The balance might be different from one community to the next as determined by self-selecting membership.)

People would not lightly disassociate and stay independent because they would become outlaws in the original sense of being unprotected by the law. But governments would be constrained to true service for fear of losing any citizen that felt excessively burdened and insufficiently served.

There might be some problems with people living in the center of communities they didn't like, and they might have to move to a community they prefer to get the benfits offered by the other community. But in general, communities would all be governed by the REAL consent of the citizens - not the ersatz consent of democracy.

[mczerone]

Staying is opting in.

Getting out is opting out.

You can try to live in any country you want to, just don't expect to be treated like you were there first.

Can I opt out and keep "my" property?

If not, then we are all serfs. If so, the State doesn't exist.

[jtap]

Can I opt out and keep "my" property?

If not, then we are all serfs. If so, the State doesn't exist.

bingo!

[mczerone]

Society is a compromise.

Define "society"


There are burdens associated with being part of a society and there are benefits. Human beings have always been social creatures because the benefits of a properly structured society outweigh the burdens.

That seems like a subjective value statement. Also, who is to determine "proper structure"?


Paleolithic bands stayed together because each member determined it was more beneficail than burdensome to do so. If the balance changed, they could simply walk away. Any band that imposed an unfair burden on the members would disintegrate through attrition. The same dynamic should apply now.

Agreed, but "simply walking away" needs to be fleshed out in this day of stationary property, "fixed" employment, etc.


If each individual had the undisputed right to peacefully secede from any government entity - losing the benefits granted and the burdens imposed by that government - then any government that strayed away from the proper balance of benefits and burdens would disintegrate and be replaced by one that held to the balance. (The balance might be different from one community to the next as determined by self-selecting membership.)

People would not lightly disassociate and stay independent because they would become outlaws in the original sense of being unprotected by the law. But governments would be constrained to true service for fear of losing any citizen that felt excessively burdened and insufficiently served.

There might be some problems with people living in the center of communities they didn't like, and they might have to move to a community they prefer to get the benfits offered by the other community. But in general, communities would all be governed by the REAL consent of the citizens - not the ersatz consent of democracy.

The only difference I see is the development of over-lapping communities.

200 years ago there were catholic areas, protestant areas, Jewish areas, Muslim areas, etc.

50 years ago there were White neighborhoods, Black neighborhoods, immigrant neighborhoods, etc.

Today, there are apartment complexes and subdivisions where every single race and religion combination live peacefully alongside each other.

I don't see any reason why my neighbor couldn't subscribe to the laws of "California" while I subscribe to "Rothbard DRO" and the guy across the street recently switched his plan from "Sharia" to "Luxembourgean".

The "community" would be like your church, or a fraternal organization, or a meetup group. Your neighborhood wouldn't need to be homogeneous.

[satchelmcqueen]

sounds like a bunch of smart ass government clowns to me. pos1 is the biggest joke. pos2 is close second. just retweet, facebook,(even on their pages) and do a news paper article. id almost bet that by the end of this week, those two government big wigs will know for a fact that the power lies with US not them, because they will start to feel and see so much backlash against them personally, they will know for a fact that they WILL NOT win re election.

ill help you spread it myself. type up a letter about your experience complete with their responses to you. me and everyone here id bet will be allover this. make a new thread so we can easily see your piece. we will do the rest. send me a message if youre interested. this is how the people work!!

edit: if my comedy career takes off (long shot lol) i plan to throw in things like this in my act every few jokes. im going to use my stage time to pepper the audience with things they should know. ill include these douchebags names in there to.

[Acala]

Define "society".

It doesn't really matter for purposes of the idea presented, but we can call it a group of people who comprise a cooperative group.




That seems like a subjective value statement. Also, who is to determine "proper structure"?.

The fact that for most of human history humans were free to enter and leave any social structure at will, but apparently stayed in bands suggests that they (subjectively) determined the benfits outweighed the burdens. Each individual determines proper structure by voting with their feet. Kinda the whole point.



Agreed, but "simply walking away" needs to be fleshed out in this day of stationary property, "fixed" employment, etc..

Walking away in the present would mean making a statement of secession. We would have to develop a culture that deeply respects the right of secession rather than assuming servitude as the norm.





I don't see any reason why my neighbor couldn't subscribe to the laws of "California" while I subscribe to "Rothbard DRO" and the guy across the street recently switched his plan from "Sharia" to "Luxembourgean".

The "community" would be like your church, or a fraternal organization, or a meetup group. Your neighborhood wouldn't need to be homogeneous.

I agree. Although if your chosen community is centered in Taiwan but you live in the middle of New York, your community is going to have a hard time defending you from aggression, which is one of the most important of social benefits. Realistically, the choice there might be to move or join the local community. But the force of each individual having the right to move is going to prevent most communities from being too far off the balance for most people so it is unlikely to be too bad no matter where you are.

[vickersvimy]

Society is a compromise. There are burdens associated with being part of a society and there are benefits. Human beings have always been social creatures because the benefits of a properly structured society outweigh the burdens. Paleolithic bands stayed together because each member determined it was more beneficail than burdensome to do so. If the balance changed, they could simply walk away. Any band that imposed an unfair burden on the members would disintegrate through attrition. The same dynamic should apply now.

If each individual had the undisputed right to peacefully secede from any government entity - losing the benefits granted and the burdens imposed by that government - then any government that strayed away from the proper balance of benefits and burdens would disintegrate and be replaced by one that held to the balance. (The balance might be different from one community to the next as determined by self-selecting membership.)

People would not lightly disassociate and stay independent because they would become outlaws in the original sense of being unprotected by the law. But governments would be constrained to true service for fear of losing any citizen that felt excessively burdened and insufficiently served.

There might be some problems with people living in the center of communities they didn't like, and they might have to move to a community they prefer to get the benfits offered by the other community. But in general, communities would all be governed by the REAL consent of the citizens - not the ersatz consent of democracy.

Actually that wouldn't work. You see roads outside your house? Government as is most stuff. You can already "opt-out" - just move to Somalia or Canada or China or somewhere else.

[Matthew5]

Actually that wouldn't work. You see roads outside your house? Government as is most stuff. You can already "opt-out" - just move to Somalia or Canada or China or somewhere else.

And how can you "opt-out" in Canada and not in the US?

[erowe1]

I'd be cool with Politician 1's response. So long as they really do leave me alone on my land.

I would save politician #1's response and use it as evidence that you honestly believed the state had exempted you from the obligation to pay taxes.

[erowe1]

Actually that wouldn't work. You see roads outside your house? Government as is most stuff. You can already "opt-out" - just move to Somalia or Canada or China or somewhere else.

Right. Because the US government doesn't bother you if you live in another country.

[Acala]

Actually that wouldn't work. You see roads outside your house? Government as is most stuff. .

The fact that government provides some "services" (hardly "most") does not in any way demonstrate that ONLY government can provide those services. You will have to do better than this.


You can already "opt-out" - just move to Somalia or Canada or China or somewhere else.

I reject the "mobster's choice". The possibility of relocating from one mob-dominated region to another mob-dominated region is not a choice to opt out.

The owner of a slave plantation that allows his slaves to leave, knowing full well that they have nowhere to go but another slave plantation, is still operating a slave plantation.

[vickersvimy]

The fact that government provides some "services" (hardly "most") does not in any way demonstrate that ONLY government can provide those services. You will have to do better than this.



I reject the "mobster's choice". The possibility of relocating from one mob-dominated region to another mob-dominated region is not a choice to opt out.

The owner of a slave plantation that allows his slaves to leave, knowing full well that they have nowhere to go but another slave plantation, is still operating a slave plantation.

You are seriously comparing paranoid Freemen on the land to slaves? Either you are an idiot or you don't know history.

[Acala]

You are seriously comparing paranoid Freemen on the land to slaves? Either you are an idiot or you don't know history.

Not sure what you are talkng about. I did not mention Freemen on the Land.

I simply take the founding doctrine of government by consent of the governed seriously. If government imposes its jurisdiction by force upon those who do not consent, it is illegitimate. Democracy is not consent. Nor is choosing one mob over another.

[erowe1]

You are seriously comparing paranoid Freemen on the land to slaves? Either you are an idiot or you don't know history.

It was an analogy. The argument stands.

I don't have a right to rule over you and everyone else who lives on some enormous swath of land and then tell you that you voluntarily consented to my rule over you just because you didn't move to some other enormous swath of land that someone else ruled.

Are you under the impression that you, or anyone, does have the right to do that to people?

[vickersvimy]

It was an analogy. The argument stands.

I don't have a right to rule over you and everyone else who lives on some enormous swath of land and then tell you that you voluntarily consented to my rule over you just because you didn't move to some other enormous swath of land that someone else ruled.

Are you under the impression that you, or anyone, does have the right to do that to people?

Social contract. Just because Obama or Romney get voted in doesn't mean that you can just leave the political system.

[Acala]

Social contract.

Contracts require consent. As does legitimate government, according to the founding document of this Nation (The D of I). I have not consented. Refusing to flee tyranny is not the same as consenting to it. Therefore, no "social contract" exists that binds me.

[erowe1]

Social contract. Just because Obama or Romney get voted in doesn't mean that you can just leave the political system.

What contract? Why do you assume I signed it?

[Danke]

///

[ZENemy]

Social contract. Just because Obama or Romney get voted in doesn't mean that you can just leave the political system.

lol

Might as well have said "Jesus"

[ZENemy]

Contracts require consent. As does legitimate government, according to the founding document of this Nation (The D of I). I have not consented. Refusing to flee tyranny is not the same as consenting to it. Therefore, no "social contract" exists that binds me.

Correct and even if such a document did exist, proof of the document and your voluntary signature would be required.


There is no longer a functioning government in the U.S.A, I think its hard to pinpoint exactly when it was lost but no representation remains. Nothing but opinions, violence and lobbyist are left.