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View Full Version : 'Yeah, I shot the dog. What the f--- you gonna do about it?'




phill4paul
01-01-2014, 11:13 AM
Because rust never sleeps. Even on holidays.


December 31, 2013 |

CHICAGO (CN) - Police in Harvey, Ill., shot a man in the back of the leg without cause, threatened to "shoot the shit out of" a witness with a camera, then shot to death a witness's puppy, the wounded man and dog owner claim in federal lawsuits.

Paul Manning sued the City of Harvey, its police Officer James Sinnot, and Officer O'Shea.

In the second lawsuit, Karnischa Miller, who owned the 14-week-old puppy, sued the City of Harvey, Sinnot, and Officer Davres.

Harvey, pop. 30,000, a far south suburb of Chicago, is 90 percent black and Latino.

Manning claims he was walking down the street on Dec. 30, 2012, when the officers began following him in a squad car.

"Defendant officer stopped his car and told Mr. Manning, 'Come here!'," the complaint states. "Mr. Manning had done nothing wrong, and, therefore, did not stop.

"Mr. Manning had no weapon or other objects in his hands. "After a short distance of moving away from the defendant officer, Mr. Manning slipped and fell.

"As Mr. Manning tried to get up, one of the defendant officers willfully shot Mr. Manning in the back of his leg. "Mr. Manning fell again and tried to get up again.

"Defendant officer then fired more shots at Mr. Manning

"Mr. Manning suffered excruciating pain from these gunshot wounds.

"One of the defendant officers then stood on top of Mr. Manning with the full force of his leg on Mr. Manning's back. One of the defendant officers handcuffed Mr. Manning while he was lying down after having been shot."

A witness tried to record the scene with his cell phone, but a Harvey officer grabbed the phone and threw it, saying "You touch the phone, I will shoot the shit out of you," Manning says in the complaint.

In the second lawsuit, Miller claims she heard gunshots, "opened the back door and witnessed a young man, Paul Manning, lying on the ground after having been shot. He was screaming and asking for an ambulance.

"Harvey police officers were surrounding Paul Manning with their guns drawn. Upon information and belief, one officer was standing on Paul's back, simply as an excessive display of force."

When Miller opened the door, her 14-week-old puppy, Nemo, ran outside. A police officer yelled to Miller's boyfriend, LeShon Wright, "'Get your dog!'," the complaint states.

"As Mr. Wright walked off the porch toward the dog, one of the defendant officers unholstered and raised his gun towards Nemo and Mr. Wright.
Mr. Wright became fearful for his life and stopped.

"Nemo approached one of the defendant officers and sniffed his ankle. Nemo did not growl, bark, or act aggressively in any way.

"A defendant officer then shot Nemo."

The officers would not let anyone approach the wounded dog from 4:30 p.m. until 11:15 p.m., according to the lawsuit.

"A defendant officer said: 'Yeah, I shot the dog. What the fuck you gonna do about it?'" Miller claims.

"The City of Harvey admitted that their police officers shot Nemo.
"Ms. Miller and her children were so distraught by the circumstances surrounding Nemo's murder, and being forced to helplessly watch him die, that they moved from Harvey to Wisconsin," Miller says.

Manning seeks punitive damages for excessive force, battery, and emotional distress. Miller seeks punitive damages for excessive force, illegal seizure, failure to intervene, and emotional distress.

Both are represented by Victor Henderson and Rebecca Kaiser with Henderson Adam.

The median income and home value in Harvey are about half the statewide median.

http://www.alternet.org/police-shoot-puppy-witness-another-police-shooting

Dr.3D
01-01-2014, 11:17 AM
"A defendant officer said: 'Yeah, I shot the dog. What the fuck you gonna do about it?'" Miller claims.
I guess these cops now feel like they are bullet proof.

phill4paul
01-01-2014, 11:22 AM
I guess these cops now feel like they are bullet proof.

Woulda surprised the hell out of him, for a half second, if a 30-06 from the house window had ended his thug life.

tod evans
01-01-2014, 11:41 AM
In before the "We can vote to change this shit." crowd......

Occam's Banana
01-01-2014, 11:55 AM
In before the "We can vote to change this shit." crowd......

Or the "we can sue 'em to change this shit" crowd ...

otherone
01-01-2014, 12:00 PM
Or the "we can sue 'em to change this shit" crowd ...

HAH!!!!!!
...but not before the "burn baby burn", crowd!!!!!

http://gifs.gifbin.com/25yuswsw28295.gif

FloralScent
01-01-2014, 12:34 PM
I love when folks talk about China being repressive. You can go a whole day in a large Chinese city and not see a single cop. I live in a town of about 5,000 and you can't throw a rock without hitting one.

tod evans
01-01-2014, 12:57 PM
I love when folks talk about China being repressive. You can go a whole day in a large Chinese city and not see a single cop. I live in a town of about 5,000 and you can't throw a rock without hitting one.

But, but,...........We're free here.

Henry Rogue
01-01-2014, 01:05 PM
HAH!!!!!!
...but not before the "burn baby burn", crowd!!!!!

http://gifs.gifbin.com/25yuswsw28295.gifI'm not looking for a war. I would like to see laws repealed that give LE special status and an end to funding all together. They can then wear their costumes all day long and so can anyone else.

Ender
01-01-2014, 01:08 PM
I love when folks talk about China being repressive. You can go a whole day in a large Chinese city and not see a single cop. I live in a town of about 5,000 and you can't throw a rock without hitting one.

Had a friend that was in China for a while- he said the same thing. He also said that the Chinese were much freer in business and that the average small business man could get his business going for around $50 max in fees.

tod evans
01-01-2014, 01:19 PM
I'm not looking for a war. I would like to see laws repealed that give LE special status and an end to funding all together. They can then wear their costumes all day long and so can anyone else.

Unfortunately the war's being waged whether you want it or not...

I'm with ya' on repealing laws, defunding etc...But none of that's going to bring these thugs to justice.

They have declared our streets a war zone and are waging war on the citizens, lawsuits-n-legislation are not going to stop these monsters.

Czolgosz
01-01-2014, 01:20 PM
We can educate the people, to change this shit!


xD

Anti Federalist
01-01-2014, 01:25 PM
But, but,...........We're free here.

A police state is a small price to pay for living in a free country.

Now, get back in line and move along, maggot.

tod evans
01-01-2014, 01:27 PM
Happy New Year AF!

Suzanimal
01-01-2014, 01:51 PM
Police in Harvey, Ill., shot a man in the back of the leg without cause, threatened to "shoot the shit out of" a witness with a camera, then shot to death a witness's puppy, the wounded man and dog owner claim in federal lawsuits.

Geez, these assholes were on a roll - throw in an anal probe and a doughnut and they would've covered all the cop stereotypes in one shot.

chudrockz
01-01-2014, 02:06 PM
I can say with absolute certainty there would be no lawsuit if this happened to me.

Dr.3D
01-01-2014, 02:13 PM
There should be no police force.

I would rather see the constitutional sheriffs department with deputies. In the event the public don't like the way law enforcement is working, they can vote out the old sheriff and elect a new one.

As it is now, we can't vote out the police chief and his minions. They don't feel like they are accountable to anybody.

HOLLYWOOD
01-01-2014, 02:32 PM
As America turns into the Soylent Green nation, the tyrannical thugs only have to remember only thing... When Americans lose everything, they have nothing else to lose... and take a guess who Americans will go after?

Anti Federalist
01-01-2014, 02:41 PM
As America turns into the Soylent Green nation, the tyrannical thugs only have to remember only thing... When Americans lose everything, they have nothing else to lose... and take a guess who Americans will go after?

They won't do shit.

And when does all go to hell, count on cops and SWAT following orders to the letter.

They will be the only ones with fuel and heat and food.

phill4paul
01-01-2014, 02:45 PM
Geez, these assholes were on a roll - throw in an anal probe and a doughnut and they would've covered all the cop stereotypes in one shot.

Stood out to me as well.

heavenlyboy34
01-01-2014, 03:08 PM
SMH. Mundanes should start carrying pocket Constitutions. Everyone knows the cops revere that piece of paper. :rolleyes: Land Of The Free (TM)(C), ya know.

Dr.3D
01-01-2014, 03:11 PM
SMH. Mundanes should start carrying pocket Constitutions. Everyone knows the cops revere that piece of paper. :rolleyes: Land Of The Free (TM)(C), ya know.
If that would do any good, they would have made you buy a permit to carry one by now.

hated
01-01-2014, 03:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmbvyo8F4u0

ctiger2
01-01-2014, 03:52 PM
They will be the only ones with fuel and heat and food.

When the money finally goes rotten, even they won't be able to procure these things.

Good luck getting soldiers to carry out your evil orders when you pay them with confetti. lol!

FSU63
01-01-2014, 04:11 PM
Killing a puppy? I can honestly say that, of the very few things that would make me go crazy, that would be one of them. I'd probably pull out my gun and kill the cop who shot my dog (yes, I'm serious).

Well worth the jail time.

satchelmcqueen
01-01-2014, 04:22 PM
or a .270 from an outstanding citizen. .270 or 30-06? which would bust head\s easier?
Woulda surprised the hell out of him, for a half second, if a 30-06 from the house window had ended his thug life.

James Madison
01-01-2014, 04:39 PM
Time to bring back castration as an acceptable means of punishment. Normally, I wouldn't approve of such acts, but for this I will make an exception.

tod evans
01-01-2014, 04:43 PM
or a .270 from an outstanding citizen. .270 or 30-06? which would bust head\s easier?

Give me the ought-6 every time....

DamianTV
01-01-2014, 04:54 PM
Evil never sleeps, but there are times it gets away with its actions.

heavenlyboy34
01-01-2014, 05:08 PM
If that would do any good, they would have made you buy a permit to carry one by now.
+rep

asurfaholic
01-01-2014, 05:53 PM
Killing a puppy? I can honestly say that, of the very few things that would make me go crazy, that would be one of them. I'd probably pull out my gun and kill the cop who shot my dog (yes, I'm serious).

Well worth the jail time.

Or you could just intimidate them with your aesthetic looks.

Seriously.

osan
01-01-2014, 05:54 PM
We can educate the people, to change this shit!


xD

We can pay for more cops so shoot this shit (out of you).

FSU63
01-01-2014, 05:56 PM
Or you could just intimidate them with your aesthetic looks.

Seriously.
Or...I shoot them before even asking any questions. Nothing but armed thugs. I used to be a criminal justice major and wanted to be a cop until I realize that I'd be no hero. I'd jsut be enforcing unjust laws and helping no one.

Now, I do freelance personal training and am studying to become a firefighter and get certified as a PT (because firefighters ACTUALLY help people without infringing on rights).

osan
01-01-2014, 05:58 PM
They won't do shit.

And when does all go to hell, count on cops and SWAT following orders to the letter.

They will be the only ones with fuel and heat and food.

THen take as many of them with you as you are able.

But yeah... they won't do shit.

Christian Liberty
01-01-2014, 06:23 PM
Or...I shoot them before even asking any questions. Nothing but armed thugs. I used to be a criminal justice major and wanted to be a cop until I realize that I'd be no hero. I'd jsut be enforcing unjust laws and helping no one.

Now, I do freelance personal training and am studying to become a firefighter and get certified as a PT (because firefighters ACTUALLY help people without infringing on rights).

Good for you:)

I took "law enforcement" class a couple years ago, wanted to be an attorney. No longer do I have any interest in that.

Christian Liberty
01-01-2014, 06:26 PM
Time to bring back castration as an acceptable means of punishment. Normally, I wouldn't approve of such acts, but for this I will make an exception.

That implies we should leave them alive. Why?

Crimes committed in uniform should automatically be punished by death, ideally at the moment the crime is committed.

Henry Rogue
01-01-2014, 07:14 PM
Unfortunately the war's being waged whether you want it or not...

I'm with ya' on repealing laws, defunding etc...But none of that's going to bring these thugs to justice.

They have declared our streets a war zone and are waging war on the citizens, lawsuits-n-legislation are not going to stop these monsters.
Yes, a very one sided war. People should defend themselves and family if it comes down to it, but I'm not going to look for trouble. Anyway, that's what I was trying to say in my response to that guy, I'm not starting any trouble.

PaulConventionWV
01-01-2014, 07:34 PM
I can say with absolute certainty there would be no lawsuit if this happened to me.

Easily said... not so easily done.

PaulConventionWV
01-01-2014, 07:42 PM
Killing a puppy? I can honestly say that, of the very few things that would make me go crazy, that would be one of them. I'd probably pull out my gun and kill the cop who shot my dog (yes, I'm serious).

Well worth the jail time.

Forgive me, but that is just retarded. I assume you would do the same for a human, yes? Any human? If you had to choose, you would choose the human, right? Right?

Also, you wouldn't face jail time. You would be dead before you knew it. Are you willing to die for a facking animal?

PaulConventionWV
01-01-2014, 07:43 PM
Time to bring back castration as an acceptable means of punishment. Normally, I wouldn't approve of such acts, but for this I will make an exception.

Exceptions are the reason we got where we are.

I'm as angry as anyone here, but too many of you lose your heads and advocate torture or going ape-shit on a cop who shoots a dog, yet you say nothing about the cop that kills or tortures a human to death. What is this sickness?

FSU63
01-01-2014, 08:00 PM
Forgive me, but that is just retarded. I assume you would do the same for a human, yes? Any human? If you had to choose, you would choose the human, right? Right?

Also, you wouldn't face jail time. You would be dead before you knew it. Are you willing to die for a facking animal?
Depends on the human. My family? Yeah. Any random person? No.

Actually, I'd be torn even with my family. I honestly, truly place humans no higher than dogs. Dogs are the most loyal creatures there are. Unconditional love and never leaves your side. I'd go absolutely crazy if someone even just hit my dog. I'd probably beat them to death. Harming innocent animals that can't fight back is cowardly and it enrages me almost more than anything.

alucard13mm
01-01-2014, 08:07 PM
Pretty badass. Shooting a puppy and leaving its corpse out for a few hours for the neighborhood and little kids to see.

PaulConventionWV
01-01-2014, 08:08 PM
Depends on the human. My family? Yeah. Any random person? No.

Actually, I'd be torn even with my family. I honestly, truly place humans no higher than dogs. Dogs are the most loyal creatures there are. Unconditional love and never leaves your side. I'd go absolutely crazy if someone even just hit my dog. I'd probably beat them to death. Harming innocent animals that can't fight back is cowardly and it enrages me almost more than anything.

You are a very sick person. How someone can even look at a dog that way is beyond me. Human beings are more valuable than any animal. I can't tell you how much I despise this breed of dog-lovers that would sacrifice humans to get a lick on the face and stare into the eyes of something that knows only loyalty, not true love and affection. Anybody who would betray their own kind for a dog is a sick freak.

If you were on trial for beating a human to death for hitting a dog, I would vote guilty and suggest the death penalty. If you would really sacrifice your own life for a dog, then please find an opportunity to do so.

FSU63
01-01-2014, 08:12 PM
You are a very sick person. How someone can even look at a dog that way is beyond me. Human beings are more valuable than any animal. I can't tell you how much I despise this breed of dog-lovers that would sacrifice humans to get a lick on the face and stare into the eyes of something that knows only loyalty, not true love and affection. Anybody who would betray their own kind for a dog is a sick freak.

If you were on trial for beating a human to death for hitting a dog, I would vote guilty and suggest the death penalty. If you would really sacrifice your own life for a dog, then please find an opportunity to do so.You can think that if you want. But humans are naturally corrupt, bad people. Dogs are loyal, benevolent creatures.

With that being said, I'd do my best to save BOTH. But, yes, I would give my life for my dog. I love him more than anything in the world.

James Madison
01-01-2014, 08:19 PM
Exceptions are the reason we got where we are.

I'm as angry as anyone here, but too many of you lose your heads and advocate torture or going ape-shit on a cop who shoots a dog, yet you say nothing about the cop that kills or tortures a human to death. What is this sickness?

Animals are always innocents. They don't understand the situation; they can't defend themselves; and they certainly can't reason with pigs. So, they're remarkably similar to children in this regard.

Adult victims are harder to sympathize with for two reasons: firstly, they're adults! Secondly, there's a good chance they've had a hand in building and supporting the police state. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

WM_in_MO
01-01-2014, 08:32 PM
No-one will do anything because they have disarmed all the major cities...

FSU63
01-01-2014, 08:34 PM
Animals are always innocents. They don't understand the situation; they can't defend themselves; and they certainly can't reason with pigs. So, they're remarkably similar to children in this regard.

Adult victims are harder to sympathize with for two reasons: firstly, they're adults! Secondly, there's a good chance they've had a hand in building and supporting the police state. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Boom.

TomtheTinker
01-01-2014, 08:40 PM
Save a dog, shoot a pig.

Superfly
01-01-2014, 09:40 PM
But without the government, who would shoot the dogs??

DamianTV
01-02-2014, 03:25 AM
Im done. Im gonna go out and buy my dogs bullet-proof collars.

Whats sad is Cesar Millan has never met a dog that he had to be violent with to get it under control (as in not attacking). There are even people that could take the angriest person on the planet and ease their frustrations.

Next isnt sad, its ironic. A few states have legalized mary jane for both medicinal and recreational purposes. Yet, there are laws that if you dont medicate your kids, the parents go to jail. Im starting to think that a better solution would be a taste of their own medicine. All cops should be required by law to smoke a bowl before going to work. Cant drive? Beat your feet, walk around and meet some of the folks that may become their next victim. I've met a lot of violent drunks. I've seen people go to the hospital for alcohol poisoning. But there are ZERO reported cases of a pot overdose. Personally, I've never met someone that was stoned on just pot that was violent. Now, the ironic part is that when cops commit many of the atrocities that they do, they continue to hide behind the same excuse to shoot peoples dogs:

Drugs.

LibertyEagle
01-02-2014, 03:53 AM
SMH. Mundanes should start carrying pocket Constitutions. Everyone knows the cops revere that piece of paper. :rolleyes: Land Of The Free (TM)(C), ya know.

Or, you could just talk to them about anarchy, or just generally piss and moan on a message board. Because I'm sure that will win the day too. :rolleyes:

LibertyEagle
01-02-2014, 03:58 AM
You are a very sick person. How someone can even look at a dog that way is beyond me. Human beings are more valuable than any animal. I can't tell you how much I despise this breed of dog-lovers that would sacrifice humans to get a lick on the face and stare into the eyes of something that knows only loyalty, not true love and affection. Anybody who would betray their own kind for a dog is a sick freak.

If you were on trial for beating a human to death for hitting a dog, I would vote guilty and suggest the death penalty. If you would really sacrifice your own life for a dog, then please find an opportunity to do so.

How very strange. He was giving a scenario of someone beating his dog for no good reason and you appear to be condoning the person who would do such a despicable thing. Very strange indeed.

DamianTV
01-02-2014, 04:21 AM
Or, you could just talk to them about anarchy, or just generally piss and moan on a message board. Because I'm sure that will win the day too. :rolleyes:

If anything, try to encourage cops you do meet to Disobey Unlawful Orders.

tod evans
01-02-2014, 05:56 AM
How very strange. He was giving a scenario of someone beating his dog for no good reason and you appear to be condoning the person who would do such a despicable thing. Very strange indeed.

Good luck LE....

http://kinialohaguy.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/banghead.gif

jtap
01-02-2014, 10:41 AM
They either wrote the manual for how to be a cop these days or are following it to a T. Sick.

Dr.3D
01-02-2014, 10:52 AM
You are a very sick person. How someone can even look at a dog that way is beyond me. Human beings are more valuable than any animal. I can't tell you how much I despise this breed of dog-lovers that would sacrifice humans to get a lick on the face and stare into the eyes of something that knows only loyalty, not true love and affection. Anybody who would betray their own kind for a dog is a sick freak.

If you were on trial for beating a human to death for hitting a dog, I would vote guilty and suggest the death penalty. If you would really sacrifice your own life for a dog, then please find an opportunity to do so.
The people who would do such a thing to an animal are in fact no better than animals. If anything, it would be a noble cause to sacrifice ones life in defense of those who can not defend themselves.

AFPVet
01-02-2014, 12:29 PM
Give me the ought-6 every time....

The '06 or .308 are better barrier busters than the .270. The '06 and .308 shoot heavier bullets which penetrate better.

phill4paul
01-02-2014, 12:45 PM
No-one will do anything because they have disarmed all the major cities...

Theye can have the cesspits called cities, but I suppose theye will not stop there and eventually the hinterlands will be swallowed up also.

tod evans
01-02-2014, 12:53 PM
Theye can have the cesspits called cities, but I suppose theye will not stop there and eventually the hinterlands will be swallowed up also.

The Ozark hinterlands won't go easily.....

Pericles
01-02-2014, 04:48 PM
I can say with absolute certainty there would be no lawsuit if this happened to me.

Best letter ever written:

Gentlemen,

You have undertaken to cheat me. I will not take this matter to court, for the law is too slow. Instead, I'll ruin you.

Sincerely,

Cornelius Vanderbilt

chudrockz
01-02-2014, 06:12 PM
You are a very sick person. How someone can even look at a dog that way is beyond me. Human beings are more valuable than any animal. I can't tell you how much I despise this breed of dog-lovers that would sacrifice humans to get a lick on the face and stare into the eyes of something that knows only loyalty, not true love and affection. Anybody who would betray their own kind for a dog is a sick freak.

If you were on trial for beating a human to death for hitting a dog, I would vote guilty and suggest the death penalty. If you would really sacrifice your own life for a dog, then please find an opportunity to do so.

I agree fully with FSU63.

And NO ONE has every suggested (nor have I ever had a thought) of "betraying my own kind for a dog." That's just silly. What's outrageous, as was said, is humans abusing or killing a defenseless animal for no reason at all (or for a "game" or some such sickass thing).

Feel however you like about human beings "vs." other creatures. But I'm telling you, any person who is capable of (for instance) strapping fireworks to a pit bull and lighting it on fire (this happened recently) is a SICK FUCK who should be put out of their misery asap.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 06:30 PM
You can think that if you want. But humans are naturally corrupt, bad people. Dogs are loyal, benevolent creatures.

With that being said, I'd do my best to save BOTH. But, yes, I would give my life for my dog. I love him more than anything in the world.

Oh my God. It doesn't matter how corrupt humans are. They are intrinsically more valuable than any animal because they have self-awareness. We are special. Even if you don't believe that as a philosophical basis, then it should at least be obvious by the way the world is arranged.

Dogs don't love. Their loyalty is just that. The only reason we place so much value in dogs is because we see loyalty as a good thing for the benefit of humans. Dogs are NEVER more valuable than any human life, though. Humans are capable of more emotion, of empathy. Every human should have the opportunity to express that regardless of how they measure up to dogs because they simply mean more to society. A dog can't write poetry or build skyscrapers. They will never, EVER show a millionth of the promise that any human is capable of, no matter who they are.

This dog-worship attitude sickens me. I don't know if it's just an exaggerated need to express fancy for their dog or if people really do feel this way, but it troubles me because it is one of the most logically absurd things I've ever come across. It doesn't matter what you think of human life in general because humans are worth more than dogs no matter how you look at it. If you judge them by utuility, humans win; morality, humans win; ethics, humans win; personal enrichment, humans win. No dog can replace even the most worthless human life.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 06:31 PM
Animals are always innocents. They don't understand the situation; they can't defend themselves; and they certainly can't reason with pigs. So, they're remarkably similar to children in this regard.

Adult victims are harder to sympathize with for two reasons: firstly, they're adults! Secondly, there's a good chance they've had a hand in building and supporting the police state. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Even the most die-hard statist is worth more than a dog.

Dr.3D
01-02-2014, 06:32 PM
Oh my God. It doesn't matter how corrupt humans are. They are intrinsically more valuable than any animal because they have self-awareness. We are special. Even if you don't believe that as a philosophical basis, then it should at least be obvious by the way the world is arranged.

Dogs don't love. Their loyalty is just that. The only reason we place so much value in dogs is because we see loyalty as a good thing for the benefit of humans. Dogs are NEVER more valuable than any human life, though. Humans are capable of more emotion, of empathy. Every human should have the opportunity to express that regardless of how they measure up to dogs because they simply mean more to society. A dog can't write poetry or build skyscrapers. They will never, EVER show a millionth of the promise that any human is capable of, no matter who they are.

This dog-worship attitude sickens me. I don't know if it's just an exaggerated need to express fancy for their dog or if people really do feel this way, but it troubles me because it is one of the most logically absurd things I've ever come across. It doesn't matter what you think of human life in general because humans are worth more than dogs no matter how you look at it. If you judge them by utuility, humans win; morality, humans win; ethics, humans win; personal enrichment, humans win. No dog can replace even the most worthless human life.
I can see you don't know shit about dogs. They are very self aware.
You really should get to know a dog, but then again, I would feel sorry for any dog that had to spend any amount of time with you.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 06:34 PM
How very strange. He was giving a scenario of someone beating his dog for no good reason and you appear to be condoning the person who would do such a despicable thing. Very strange indeed.

I am doing no such thing, and frankly, I don't even appear to be doing so. I'm sorry, but you apparently don't know what you're talking about and your reading comprehension is in serious question.

James Madison
01-02-2014, 06:37 PM
Even the most die-hard statist is worth more than a dog.

So, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et al. were worth more than a dog?

"With great power comes great responsibility."

Humans have a special place amongst our animal friends as we are their keeper. That also means we are expected to make choices for them and to watch over them in the same way a parent watches over their child.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 06:37 PM
Good luck LE....

http://kinialohaguy.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/banghead.gif

I honestly don't get why you hate me so much. It seems to have something to do with my age and level of education. In that case, a merry "up yours!" to you, too. Leave me alone.

chudrockz
01-02-2014, 06:38 PM
I honestly don't get why you hate me so much. It seems to have something to do with my age and level of education. In that case, a merry "up yours!" to you, too. Leave me alone.

Complete lack of empathy shown by a dog-hating human. Go figure.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 06:39 PM
The people who would do such a thing to an animal are in fact no better than animals. If anything, it would be a noble cause to sacrifice ones life in defense of those who can not defend themselves.

Every human is worth infinitely more than any dog. Dogs are here for man, and that's it. There is absolutely no acceptable circumstance in which they should be judged by the same ruler. Morality may have shifted in the last few decades, but it doesn't change the fact that a human's life is the ultimate measure of the worth of life itself.

If you seriously think that a dog's life is worth more than your own in any circumstance, then that opens the gate to the subjective value of human life that caused the Holocaust and virtually every mass genocide.

If you really believe it, however, logic dictates that you should practice it. Animals aren't "innocent" any more than a cactus or a spider is innocent. They just aren't capable of the range of morality and emotions that humans are, but that doesn't change the fact that their place in this world is for the utility of humans. Under no circumstances should their worth ever be measured by the same standard.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 06:46 PM
Complete lack of empathy shown by a dog-hating human. Go figure.

I don't lack empathy. Dogs lack empathy. They are no more capable of being innocent than they are of being evil. They are about as innocent as a plant or a bug, but they should never surpass humans in value just because they are incapable of the range of actions and emotions that we are.

I don't hate dogs, I just don't love them. Why should I? I love them about as much as I love plants and cows for sustaining me with food. I don't love those things either because they are there for my survival, and my survival is worth infinitely more than they will ever be. The same goes for any human, no matter how worthless you think they are. They are still the standard for the value of life, and no animal can surpass that.

FSU63
01-02-2014, 06:51 PM
the Holocaust
LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Quoted for fail.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 06:52 PM
I agree fully with FSU63.

And NO ONE has every suggested (nor have I ever had a thought) of "betraying my own kind for a dog." That's just silly. What's outrageous, as was said, is humans abusing or killing a defenseless animal for no reason at all (or for a "game" or some such sickass thing).

Feel however you like about human beings "vs." other creatures. But I'm telling you, any person who is capable of (for instance) strapping fireworks to a pit bull and lighting it on fire (this happened recently) is a SICK FUCK who should be put out of their misery asap.

I disagree, and my conviction on this is only likely to harden the more you argue with it. I would agree with you that the person who does that has some deeper problems than what manifests in the form of animal torture, just like the columbine kids who used to kill cats for fun. I love cats and I still wouldn't put any human to death no matter how many cats they kill. The moral standards of this modern world have really fucked us up to the point where we can value just about anything more than a human life just because we've opened ourselves to the possibility that the two can be compared.

chudrockz
01-02-2014, 06:55 PM
We rescued a pit bull from a shelter ten months ago. Since doing so, I genuinely believe that I have become a better person. I'm not as self-centered as I used to be, nor as introverted. I have struck up more conversations (BECAUSE of my dog) with complete strangers in the past ten months than I ever did in the forty years preceding.

My wife makes fun of me, because I like to take Snowflake with me just about everywhere I go (besides work). But everyone who sees her, and especially everyone who interacts with her, has a better day because of it. Just yesterday I saw the happiest two-year-old girl in the world, who giggled with joy at being able to pet (and be licked by) my dog.

On the flip side are those "people" who do things like kick, beat, stab, or kill dogs. Whether theirs or a stray.

While I don't think of myself as the nicest person in the universe, I *know* that I'm better than people like that.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 06:59 PM
LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Quoted for fail.

Way to provide context, dickwad.

FSU63
01-02-2014, 06:59 PM
I disagree, and my conviction on this is only likely to harden the more you argue with it.
As much conviction as Hitler? I don't think so.

asurfaholic
01-02-2014, 07:02 PM
All life is sacred

But the innocence of dogs is what makes this so outrageous.

The problem is that these are sadist fucks who go around shooting puppies, and is debatable which soul is more blessed

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 07:03 PM
So, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et al. were worth more than a dog?

"With great power comes great responsibility."

Humans have a special place amongst our animal friends as we are their keeper. That also means we are expected to make choices for them and to watch over them in the same way a parent watches over their child.

Yes, they were all worth more than a dog. They were worth more than a million dogs. A dog has no worth in terms of human life. Human life stands alone as a completely separate standard by which nothing else can be judged, nor can humans be judged by the standards of anything else other than human life. They may have been the worst humans, but comparing them to animals just opens the door to barbarity. That's not to say I wouldn't have killed them if given the chance. After all, we have a justice system that allows us to punish people who are evil, but animals are not even introduced into the equation because justice for humans simply doesn't involve them in the least.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 07:06 PM
I can see you don't know shit about dogs. They are very self aware.
You really should get to know a dog, but then again, I would feel sorry for any dog that had to spend any amount of time with you.

And you do know how dogs think? I got news: no amount of staring into the eyes of a dog lets you know how its mind works. That's why animals can't communicate with us. We are all special, and we cannot be compared to any non-human.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 07:07 PM
So, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et al. were worth more than a dog?

"With great power comes great responsibility."

Humans have a special place amongst our animal friends as we are their keeper. That also means we are expected to make choices for them and to watch over them in the same way a parent watches over their child.

You were right until you said, "In the same way a parent watches over their child." I think most people would disagree with that. It is not the same.

Dr.3D
01-02-2014, 07:11 PM
And you do know how dogs think? I got news: no amount of staring into the eyes of a dog lets you know how its mind works. That's why animals can't communicate with us. We are all special, and we cannot be compared to any non-human.
I know what my dog thinks. We communicate quite well together. He tells me when he is hungry and when he needs to go out. He tells me when he is cold and wants to get under a blanket. He tells me when he feels like playing.

Again, I'm saying you don't know anything about animals.

You just haven't taken the time to get to know one.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 07:12 PM
We rescued a pit bull from a shelter ten months ago. Since doing so, I genuinely believe that I have become a better person. I'm not as self-centered as I used to be, nor as introverted. I have struck up more conversations (BECAUSE of my dog) with complete strangers in the past ten months than I ever did in the forty years preceding.

My wife makes fun of me, because I like to take Snowflake with me just about everywhere I go (besides work). But everyone who sees her, and especially everyone who interacts with her, has a better day because of it. Just yesterday I saw the happiest two-year-old girl in the world, who giggled with joy at being able to pet (and be licked by) my dog.

On the flip side are those "people" who do things like kick, beat, stab, or kill dogs. Whether theirs or a stray.

While I don't think of myself as the nicest person in the universe, I *know* that I'm better than people like that.

Good for you. I applaud you for becoming a better person. The dog is valuable because it helped you look in on yourself. The dog, however, is not a human being and is not capable of becoming a "better" or "worse" person because it is not a person. It is a thing, just like a plant. If a plant helps you think better and makes you a better person, it is still just a plant. Just like a dog is still just a dog and nothing more.

You may be better than people who torture dogs, but the dog itself will never be better or worse than the human who does that to them because they are not capable of morality, philosophy, or even abstract thought. They simply aren't on the same scale.

James Madison
01-02-2014, 07:12 PM
You were right until you said, "In the same way a parent watches over their child." I think most people would disagree with that. It is not the same.

How is it not the same? You provide for them, make decisions for them, protect them, and care for them.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 07:13 PM
As much conviction as Hitler? I don't think so.

That doesn't make any sense. Who knows how much conviction Hitler had? It's not even relevant.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 07:15 PM
All life is sacred

But the innocence of dogs is what makes this so outrageous.

The problem is that these are sadist fucks who go around shooting puppies, and is debatable which soul is more blessed

Like I said, dogs are no more "innocent" than they are evil. They are about as innocent as a cactus in that they don't have the capability to be either good or evil. Innocence means they haven't yet been corrupted. Only humans can truly be innocent because only they can be corrupted. Dogs are simply reacting to stimuli in their environment are capable of neither good nor evil. Therefore, there is no "innocence" for them.

FSU63
01-02-2014, 07:16 PM
Way to provide context, dickwad.No mass genocide ever occurred.


That doesn't make any sense. Who knows how much conviction Hitler had? It's not even relevant.
I know because I've seen videos of his speeches. You couldn't fake his passion.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 07:19 PM
I know what my dog thinks. We communicate quite well together. He tells me when he is hungry and when he needs to go out. He tells me when he is cold and wants to get under a blanket. He tells me when he feels like playing.

Again, I'm saying you don't know anything about animals.

You just haven't taken the time to get to know one.

You don't know any more than I do about how they think. You might know more about how they act, but you are no more capable than me of measuring the good will or intentions of a dog than I am. You are simply looking for patterns in their behavior, not truly communicating.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 07:21 PM
How is it not the same? You provide for them, make decisions for them, protect them, and care for them.

Because every parent I know values their children more than any dog. And any parent I know would be willing to sacrifice themselves for their own children, no matter what unspeakably horrible acts their children are capable of. They are always worthy of forgiveness.

If you value a human more than a dog, then that affects the way you care for them separately, no?

Henry Rogue
01-02-2014, 07:22 PM
I honestly don't get why you hate me so much. It seems to have something to do with my age and level of education. In that case, a merry "up yours!" to you, too. Leave me alone.
Maybe you just come across as unlikable.

Dr.3D
01-02-2014, 07:23 PM
You don't know any more than I do about how they think. You might know more about how they act, but you are no more capable than me of measuring the good will or intentions of a dog than I am. You are simply looking for patterns in their behavior, not truly communicating.
Well if you couldn't talk with language and people had to pay attention to how you act to understand what you wanted, I'm sure some idiot would say the same thing about you.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 07:23 PM
No mass genocide ever occurred.


I know because I've seen videos of his speeches. You couldn't fake his passion.

Ok, but how do you measure that passion and compare it to someone else's. More to the point, why does it matter how much conviction he had?

chudrockz
01-02-2014, 07:23 PM
Good for you. I applaud you for becoming a better person. The dog is valuable because it helped you look in on yourself. The dog, however, is not a human being and is not capable of becoming a "better" or "worse" person because it is not a person. It is a thing, just like a plant. If a plant helps you think better and makes you a better person, it is still just a plant. Just like a dog is still just a dog and nothing more.

You may be better than people who torture dogs, but the dog itself will never be better or worse than the human who does that to them because they are not capable of morality, philosophy, or even abstract thought. They simply aren't on the same scale.

"A dog can't become a better person because it isn't a person." No shit?

I suppose it's pointless, since you seem (in your words) "hardened." But I'm telling you the truth, and I'd venture to guess that the VAST majority on this forum and elsewhere agree with me, that there IS indeed something special about dogs. They are NOT just things.

If someone pees on my grass, I'll tell them to put their goddamned wang away and go home. If someone kicks my dog who is on my grass doing nothing to anyone, I *will* fuck them up.

Dr.3D
01-02-2014, 07:25 PM
"A dog can't become a better person because it isn't a person." No shit?

I suppose it's pointless, since you seem (in your words) "hardened." But I'm telling you the truth, and I'd venture to guess that the VAST majority on this forum and elsewhere agree with me, that there IS indeed something special about dogs. They are NOT just things.

If someone pees on my grass, I'll tell them to put their goddamned wang away and go home. If someone kicks my dog who is on my grass doing nothing to anyone, I *will* fuck them up.

Some of the best people I know are dogs.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 07:25 PM
Maybe you just come across as unlikable.

In that case, the best policy is to simply mind your own business when unprovoked. I don't care what you think of me. I'm on a message board, so I'm going to speak my mind. I bet 99% of people here are totally different in real life than they are on the internet.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 07:29 PM
Well if you couldn't talk with language and people had to pay attention to how you act to understand what you wanted, I'm sure some idiot would say the same thing about you.

There is a reason dogs can't communicate with us. They aren't capable of feeling the same things we are. Humans who lose that capability are no less human because of it. Some idiot might say that about me, but they would be just that, an idiot.

Dr.3D
01-02-2014, 07:30 PM
There is a reason dogs can't communicate with us. They aren't capable of feeling the same things we are. Humans who lose that capability are no less human because of it. Some idiot might say that about me, but they would be just that, an idiot.
Dogs can communicate with us if we just pay attention to them. They feel pain, hunger, cold and the need for love just like we do.

LibertyEagle
01-02-2014, 07:37 PM
Good for you. I applaud you for becoming a better person. The dog is valuable because it helped you look in on yourself. The dog, however, is not a human being and is not capable of becoming a "better" or "worse" person because it is not a person. It is a thing, just like a plant. If a plant helps you think better and makes you a better person, it is still just a plant. Just like a dog is still just a dog and nothing more.

You may be better than people who torture dogs, but the dog itself will never be better or worse than the human who does that to them because they are not capable of morality, philosophy, or even abstract thought. They simply aren't on the same scale.

Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that a beloved pet animal is more important to the owner than some low life who would try to harm that beloved animal? It's really just common sense.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 07:40 PM
"A dog can't become a better person because it isn't a person." No shit?

I suppose it's pointless, since you seem (in your words) "hardened." But I'm telling you the truth, and I'd venture to guess that the VAST majority on this forum and elsewhere agree with me, that there IS indeed something special about dogs. They are NOT just things.

If someone pees on my grass, I'll tell them to put their goddamned wang away and go home. If someone kicks my dog who is on my grass doing nothing to anyone, I *will* fuck them up.

If someone kicked my car, I might do the same thing. Those are all subjective judgments we make on a daily basis. The point about a dog not being a person is that it is not capable of good or evil, and so its value cannot even be measured against a human because it is a thing and is not capable of showing the same range of morality as humans.

The only special thing about dogs is their loyalty. That's why we value them so much, because a loyal animal is beneficial to the survival of the human to whom the dog is loyal. Outside of their utility, however, there is nothing special. They are still incapable of abstract thought and we are still incapable of communicating with them in any meaningful way by virtue of their very nature.

Spinach is a very good, nutritional plant. It is generally a better plant than lettuce, but it would never even occur to me to measure its worth in human life. How many humans is a leaf of spinach worth? 0.1? 0.01? It doesn't matter because they can't even be compared. Dogs may have more utility value than either spinach or lettuce, but their worth still can't be measured in human life.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 07:42 PM
Dogs can communicate with us if we just pay attention to them. They feel pain, hunger, cold and the need for love just like we do.

They feel the same need for survival. I would leave "love" out of it. It doesn't change anything, though. We can't communicate with them beyond what is needed for the survival of each.

chudrockz
01-02-2014, 07:43 PM
I can't recommend this book that my wife got me enough. I finally got time to read it a couple of weeks ago, and it's amazing.

http://www.amazon.com/Devoted-Extraordinary-Tales-Love-Loyalty-ebook/dp/B00C8RZHM4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1388713349&sr=8-1&keywords=%22Devoted%22

LibertyEagle
01-02-2014, 07:43 PM
They feel the same need for survival. I would leave "love" out of it. It doesn't change anything, though. We can't communicate with them beyond what is needed for the survival of each.

CORRECTION. YOU can't. However, a lot of us can.

Dr.3D
01-02-2014, 07:45 PM
CORRECTION. YOU can't. However, a lot of us can.
That's a fact.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 07:46 PM
Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that a beloved pet animal is more important to the owner than some low life who would try to harm that beloved animal? It's really just common sense.

No, it's not. That's the problem. I am setting a moral standard here. Human life and animal life cannot be compared. A dog is neither good nor evil, but that doesn't change the fact that "some low life" doesn't deserve to die unless human justice dictates it. Human justice can only be applied to humans. We have a justice system specifically arranged around this idea, and the moment that any animal starts competing with humans for justice is the moment we devolve into barbarity.

If I don't know a person, I give them the benefit of the doubt. In 100% of cases, I choose the human over the dog because I know the human is at least capable of redemption. The dog was never good nor evil and its death doesn't mean a thing except a loss of property.

tod evans
01-02-2014, 07:46 PM
CORRECTION. YOU can't. However, a lot of us can.


Good luck LE....

http://kinialohaguy.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/banghead.gif

:rolleyes:

chudrockz
01-02-2014, 07:46 PM
http://press.nationalgeographic.com/files/2013/10/Devoted-cover-image-400x400.jpg

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 07:46 PM
CORRECTION. YOU can't. However, a lot of us can.

Um, no. You can't.

Dr.3D
01-02-2014, 07:47 PM
:rolleyes:

Yeah, I'm done here.

LibertyEagle
01-02-2014, 07:49 PM
Um, no. You can't.

Um, yes, I can and have.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 07:54 PM
Um, yes, I can and have.

No.

See, we can communicate with dogs to the extent that it concerns our survival. We can never understand how a dog thinks, however. Even if you thought you knew, how would you verify that? The only true way of knowing is if the dog could explain it to you in human terms.

Granted, some people are very good at communicating with dogs in order to manipulate their survival needs to benefit themselves. However, what I am saying that neither you nor anyone else can explain human things to dogs in dog terms, and dogs can't explain dog things to humans in human terms. A dog will never be capable of considering abstract concepts such as the value of life at all, so communicating with them is solely limited to utility purposes.

heavenlyboy34
01-02-2014, 08:00 PM
No.

See, we can communicate with dogs to the extent that it concerns our survival. We can never understand how a dog thinks, however. Even if you thought you knew, how would you verify that? The only true way of knowing is if the dog could explain it to you in human terms.

Granted, some people are very good at communicating with dogs in order to manipulate their survival needs to benefit themselves. However, what I am saying that neither you nor anyone else can explain human things to dogs in dog terms, and dogs can't explain dog things to humans in human terms. A dog will never be capable of considering abstract concepts such as the value of life at all, so communicating with them is solely limited to utility purposes.
Not to jump into this debate, but linguistic science has confirmed what you've said here^^ /end jump-in

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 08:09 PM
Not to jump into this debate, but linguistic science has confirmed what you've said here^^ /end jump-in

Thanks, HB! :)

Dr.3D
01-02-2014, 08:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNuZ4OE6vCk

chudrockz
01-02-2014, 08:16 PM
So to recap, Paul seems to think that because a person places real (non utilitarian) value in the life of a dog, that person somehow degrades or places less value in the life of a person or people.

And again, for me personally, my dog has literally taught me to place MORE value in the lives of both people AND animals.

LibertyEagle
01-02-2014, 08:53 PM
No.

See, we can communicate with dogs to the extent that it concerns our survival. We can never understand how a dog thinks, however. Even if you thought you knew, how would you verify that? The only true way of knowing is if the dog could explain it to you in human terms.

Granted, some people are very good at communicating with dogs in order to manipulate their survival needs to benefit themselves. However, what I am saying that neither you nor anyone else can explain human things to dogs in dog terms, and dogs can't explain dog things to humans in human terms.

I suggest you keep your opinions limited to your own lack of capability and do not extend it out to others. Thank you very much.


A dog will never be capable of considering abstract concepts such as the value of life at all, so communicating with them is solely limited to utility purposes.
You don't appear to understand abstract concepts. Does that mean you are a dog?

JK/SEA
01-02-2014, 09:00 PM
Some of the best people I know are dogs.

yep.

JK/SEA
01-02-2014, 09:04 PM
Not to jump into this debate, but linguistic science has confirmed what you've said here^^ /end jump-in

so, are we deciding that there will NEVER EVER be a discovery that can produce a computer app that allows true communication between dogs, dolphins, gorillas, whales, etc?...

JK/SEA
01-02-2014, 09:11 PM
Good for you. I applaud you for becoming a better person. The dog is valuable because it helped you look in on yourself. The dog, however, is not a human being and is not capable of becoming a "better" or "worse" person because it is not a person. It is a thing, just like a plant. If a plant helps you think better and makes you a better person, it is still just a plant. Just like a dog is still just a dog and nothing more.

You may be better than people who torture dogs, but the dog itself will never be better or worse than the human who does that to them because they are not capable of morality, philosophy, or even abstract thought. They simply aren't on the same scale.


lol....really?....how do you know this?.....

callous attitude towards one of Gods creations. The jury is still out on who or what is the superior life form on this rock.

Ender
01-02-2014, 09:15 PM
Like I said, dogs are no more "innocent" than they are evil. They are about as innocent as a cactus in that they don't have the capability to be either good or evil. Innocence means they haven't yet been corrupted. Only humans can truly be innocent because only they can be corrupted. Dogs are simply reacting to stimuli in their environment are capable of neither good nor evil. Therefore, there is no "innocence" for them.

In my best Will Smith voice:

"That is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say- uh- EVER."

According to many ancient manuscripts, animals were in the Garden of Eden and they spoke. The Fall of Adam made them "dumb"- meaning that they no longer could speak. Also, the saying is that when the Lord returns, the lion will lay down with the lamb, as virtue will be restored upon the earth.

I am not saying this to preach religion but to show that animals have long been held in esteem and are noble creatures. You can absolutely tell the worth of a human being by the way they treat an animal.

As for feelings, my dog absolutely has feelings. I know exactly what she is going through or feeling at almost any given moment. She is also protective of our cats and will run off any dog or cat that tries to harm them.

Because you see animals as having no more value than a carrot, says more about YOU than it does any dog.

Anti Federalist
01-02-2014, 09:16 PM
I'll just leave this right here...

Epitaph to a Dog

http://files.dogster.com/pix/dogs/93/2093/2093_1161924966.jpg

Near this Spot
are deposited the Remains of one
who possessed Beauty without Vanity,
Strength without Insolence,
Courage without Ferosity,
and all the virtues of Man without his Vices.

This praise, which would be unmeaning Flattery
if inscribed over human Ashes,
is but a just tribute to the Memory of
BOATSWAIN, a DOG,
who was born in Newfoundland May 1803
and died at Newstead Nov. 18, 1808.

When some proud Son of Man returns to Earth,
Unknown to Glory, but upheld by Birth,
The sculptor’s art exhausts the pomp of woe,
And storied urns record who rests below.
When all is done, upon the Tomb is seen,
Not what he was, but what he should have been.
But the poor Dog, in life the firmest friend,
The first to welcome, foremost to defend,
Whose honest heart is still his Master’s own,
Who labours, fights, lives, breathes for him alone,
Unhonoured falls, unnoticed all his worth,
Denied in heaven the Soul he held on earth –
While man, vain insect! hopes to be forgiven,
And claims himself a sole exclusive heaven.

Oh man! thou feeble tenant of an hour,
Debased by slavery, or corrupt by power –
Who knows thee well must quit thee with disgust,
Degraded mass of animated dust!
Thy love is lust, thy friendship all a cheat,
Thy tongue hypocrisy, thy heart deceit!
By nature vile, ennobled but by name,
Each kindred brute might bid thee blush for shame.
Ye, who behold perchance this simple urn,
Pass on – it honours none you wish to mourn.
To mark a friend’s remains these stones arise;
I never knew but one -- and here he lies.

heavenlyboy34
01-02-2014, 09:27 PM
Thanks, HB! :)

n/p :) There's a lot of literature on the subject by linguists, but I first learned about it from John Mcwhorter's linguistics lectures. Probably a good place to start if you're interested in further study. ~hugs~

heavenlyboy34
01-02-2014, 09:37 PM
so, are we deciding that there will NEVER EVER be a discovery that can produce a computer app that allows true communication between dogs, dolphins, gorillas, whales, etc?...

Obviously we can't be sure of that. Highly unlikely, though. (nigh impossible) There have been linguists who have spent decades trying to find a way to teach the more "intelligent" animals (like parrots) to speak. It has never been done. You can teach parrots to mimic human speech and gorillas to use a bit of sign language, but they do not have the brain mechanics required for what we know as verbal communication.

With an app, you may be able to convey very general sensations like "hot" and "pain", but animals simply lack the brain anatomy required to measure higher thought process like emotions-we couldn't measure it scientifically if we wanted to and had the means.

JK/SEA
01-02-2014, 09:49 PM
Obviously we can't be sure of that. Highly unlikely, though. (nigh impossible) There have been linguists who have spent decades trying to find a way to teach the more "intelligent" animals (like parrots) to speak. It has never been done. You can teach parrots to mimic human speech and gorillas to use a bit of sign language, but they do not have the brain mechanics required for what we know as verbal communication.

With an app, you may be able to convey very general sensations like "hot" and "pain", but animals simply lack the brain anatomy required to measure higher thought process like emotions-we couldn't measure it scientifically if we wanted to and had the means.

ok...i believe it will happen. In my lifetime?...i hope so.

Technology is fluid no?

heavenlyboy34
01-02-2014, 10:10 PM
ok...i believe it will happen. In my lifetime?...i hope so.

Technology is fluid no?
Oui. It would be really interesting, but I wouldn't bet anything on it.

Ender
01-02-2014, 10:19 PM
ok...i believe it will happen. In my lifetime?...i hope so.

Technology is fluid no?

Here's a dog saying "I love you". ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXo3NFqkaRM

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 11:02 PM
So to recap, Paul seems to think that because a person places real (non utilitarian) value in the life of a dog, that person somehow degrades or places less value in the life of a person or people.

And again, for me personally, my dog has literally taught me to place MORE value in the lives of both people AND animals.

In case you didn't notice, I'm responding to that exact statement. One poster did, indeed, state that he would have a hard time choosing whether to save his family members or his dog. I cannot and will not understand that. Ever.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 11:03 PM
I suggest you keep your opinions limited to your own lack of capability and do not extend it out to others. Thank you very much.


You don't appear to understand abstract concepts. Does that mean you are a dog?

This isn't even debatable. It's a scientific fact that you can't do that, just like you can't talk to plants. I know that for a fact. It's not a question of my ignorance. There are some things you just can't do.

Also, the fact that I am participating in this thread proves that I am capable of abstract concepts. That sentence was an abstract concept. In any case, I don't see why you have to attack me. It's a sure sign that you're losing the argument.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 11:11 PM
I'll just leave this right here...

Epitaph to a Dog

http://files.dogster.com/pix/dogs/93/2093/2093_1161924966.jpg

Near this Spot
are deposited the Remains of one
who possessed Beauty without Vanity,
Strength without Insolence,
Courage without Ferosity,
and all the virtues of Man without his Vices.

This praise, which would be unmeaning Flattery
if inscribed over human Ashes,
is but a just tribute to the Memory of
BOATSWAIN, a DOG,
who was born in Newfoundland May 1803
and died at Newstead Nov. 18, 1808.

When some proud Son of Man returns to Earth,
Unknown to Glory, but upheld by Birth,
The sculptor’s art exhausts the pomp of woe,
And storied urns record who rests below.
When all is done, upon the Tomb is seen,
Not what he was, but what he should have been.
But the poor Dog, in life the firmest friend,
The first to welcome, foremost to defend,
Whose honest heart is still his Master’s own,
Who labours, fights, lives, breathes for him alone,
Unhonoured falls, unnoticed all his worth,
Denied in heaven the Soul he held on earth –
While man, vain insect! hopes to be forgiven,
And claims himself a sole exclusive heaven.

Oh man! thou feeble tenant of an hour,
Debased by slavery, or corrupt by power –
Who knows thee well must quit thee with disgust,
Degraded mass of animated dust!
Thy love is lust, thy friendship all a cheat,
Thy tongue hypocrisy, thy heart deceit!
By nature vile, ennobled but by name,
Each kindred brute might bid thee blush for shame.
Ye, who behold perchance this simple urn,
Pass on – it honours none you wish to mourn.
To mark a friend’s remains these stones arise;
I never knew but one -- and here he lies.

This is just getting ridiculous...

I can't even express how disappointed I am in the human race for being so dogmatic (no pun intended) about something like a dog. You can continue to spill your hearts about dogs like they can actually reciprocate that. You guys are insane. Science has determined that humans and animals are nothing alike. Now we're worshiping dogs simply because they don't have the capacity to be as evil as us, nor as good. It's a very cultish mindset and it disturbs me greatly that anyone can think like that.

PaulConventionWV
01-02-2014, 11:14 PM
ok...i believe it will happen. In my lifetime?...i hope so.

Technology is fluid no?

You guys are like UFO enthusiasts. It creeps me out.

JK/SEA
01-02-2014, 11:30 PM
You guys are like UFO enthusiasts. It creeps me out.

you must be related to the relatives i had that just banned me from my 'family' page on facebook. Apparently, my relatives with the same last name didn't like me posting cop abuse video. Its strange, because no one had posted in there in 4 months till i decided to pass along some reality about cops...oh, and i posted the vid of the cop shooting a RESTRAINED dog in the head. I think they like being asleep...anyway...yeah, i love dogs and you don't. Glad you're not my neighbor.

Ender
01-02-2014, 11:57 PM
This isn't even debatable. It's a scientific fact that you can't do that, just like you can't talk to plants. I know that for a fact. It's not a question of my ignorance. There are some things you just can't do.

Also, the fact that I am participating in this thread proves that I am capable of abstract concepts. That sentence was an abstract concept. In any case, I don't see why you have to attack me. It's a sure sign that you're losing the argument.

Uhhhh.... I talk to plants all the time- they respond and grow bigger and better.

The Mozart Effect proved that plants respond to music. And THAT's a scientific fact. Better get your head where the sun shines instead of your 2 dimensional unreality.

BTW- animals also respond to music.

XTreat
01-03-2014, 12:02 AM
I love when folks talk about China being repressive. You can go a whole day in a large Chinese city and not see a single cop. I live in a town of about 5,000 and you can't throw a rock without hitting one.

I just spent a week in Da Nang, a city of 1 million people and saw one cop while I was there.

Anti Federalist
01-03-2014, 12:39 AM
Keep in mind that epitaph was from 1808.

Over 200 years ago.

Not some modern mushy headed "they're furry people" hippie talk.

Sorry you're getting so upset over this, but obviously, you've never spent time around a "good" dog.


This is just getting ridiculous...

I can't even express how disappointed I am in the human race for being so dogmatic (no pun intended) about something like a dog. You can continue to spill your hearts about dogs like they can actually reciprocate that. You guys are insane. Science has determined that humans and animals are nothing alike. Now we're worshiping dogs simply because they don't have the capacity to be as evil as us, nor as good. It's a very cultish mindset and it disturbs me greatly that anyone can think like that.

JK/SEA
01-03-2014, 12:54 AM
awww hell, why not?...its just a damn dog...

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Washington-man-pleads-guilty-to-blowing-up-his-dog-238551311.html

LibertyEagle
01-03-2014, 02:01 AM
Obviously we can't be sure of that. Highly unlikely, though. (nigh impossible) There have been linguists who have spent decades trying to find a way to teach the more "intelligent" animals (like parrots) to speak. It has never been done. You can teach parrots to mimic human speech and gorillas to use a bit of sign language, but they do not have the brain mechanics required for what we know as verbal communication.

With an app, you may be able to convey very general sensations like "hot" and "pain", but animals simply lack the brain anatomy required to measure higher thought process like emotions-we couldn't measure it scientifically if we wanted to and had the means.

Anyone who believes that animals don't have emotions has never had one they formed a relationship with or watched them closely at all. Animals bond with their owners and other animals and GRIEVE when they are gone. They also express love and a variety of other emotions toward each other and their human owners.

LibertyEagle
01-03-2014, 02:10 AM
This isn't even debatable. It's a scientific fact that you can't do that, just like you can't talk to plants. I know that for a fact. It's not a question of my ignorance. There are some things you just can't do.
Your whole premise is stupid. You seem to believe that you have to be able to converse with a dog in English for there to be communication. There are all types of ways to communicate with another being. Language is only one of them.


Also, the fact that I am participating in this thread proves that I am capable of abstract concepts. That sentence was an abstract concept.
Actually, my comment had to do with your apparent inability to see outside of the little box that you are operating within.


In any case, I don't see why you have to attack me. It's a sure sign that you're losing the argument.

:rolleyes:


You guys are like UFO enthusiasts. It creeps me out.



I can't even express how disappointed I am in the human race for being so dogmatic (no pun intended) about something like a dog. You can continue to spill your hearts about dogs like they can actually reciprocate that. You guys are insane. Science has determined that humans and animals are nothing alike. Now we're worshiping dogs simply because they don't have the capacity to be as evil as us, nor as good. It's a very cultish mindset and it disturbs me greatly that anyone can think like that.

Origanalist
01-03-2014, 04:20 AM
This is just getting ridiculous...

I can't even express how disappointed I am in the human race for being so dogmatic (no pun intended) about something like a dog. You can continue to spill your hearts about dogs like they can actually reciprocate that. You guys are insane. Science has determined that humans and animals are nothing alike. Now we're worshiping dogs simply because they don't have the capacity to be as evil as us, nor as good. It's a very cultish mindset and it disturbs me greatly that anyone can think like that.

Lol, SCIENCE!

chudrockz
01-03-2014, 06:13 AM
You guys are like UFO enthusiasts. It creeps me out.

Well, if I'm a UFO enthusiast, I gotta be delighted this morning as I've found in you a member of the Borg. "You will be assimilated! All other species have no value!"

phill4paul
01-03-2014, 06:40 AM
Exceptions are the reason we got where we are.

I'm as angry as anyone here, but too many of you lose your heads and advocate torture or going ape-shit on a cop who shoots a dog, yet you say nothing about the cop that kills or tortures a human to death. What is this sickness?

You're fuggin kidding me, right? AF started these threads on dog killings awhile ago with one explicit purpose in mind. To elicit empathy over police abuse on humans. There is plenty to say regarding the kills or torture of citizens by cops. However, there will always be those that say "he was a bad character", "well he shouldn't have...." or any number of excuses. It's pretty tough to defend someone shooting a 15# puppy. The outrage over killings of dogs have brought awareness to others about police brutality within my circle. I know it has for others as well.
So you're not a dog lover. No big deal. However, you need to understand that to others they are an integrally related member of the family. Explain it away as much as you wish but some need to realize that ignoring it may be at their own peril.

JK/SEA
01-03-2014, 10:02 AM
A police state is a small price to pay for living in a free country.

Now, get back in line and move along, maggot.

thats awful close to what i said in U.S. History class in 1968.....i was given an 'A' in that class btw.

PaulConventionWV
01-03-2014, 10:06 AM
Uhhhh.... I talk to plants all the time- they respond and grow bigger and better.

The Mozart Effect proved that plants respond to music. And THAT's a scientific fact. Better get your head where the sun shines instead of your 2 dimensional unreality.

BTW- animals also respond to music.

You're not helping you're case when you say you talk to plants. Talking to dogs as if they were plants that respond to sound stimuli by nature means they are programmed to be that way. They do not understand you. They simply receive the stimulus and react to it. No comprehension, no abstract thought, just cause and effect.

Animals do not understand you. Their brains simply can't do that. They are not made for that.

PaulConventionWV
01-03-2014, 10:14 AM
Keep in mind that epitaph was from 1808.

Over 200 years ago.

Not some modern mushy headed "they're furry people" hippie talk.

Sorry you're getting so upset over this, but obviously, you've never spent time around a "good" dog.

Apparently you have to stare into its eyes for extremely long periods of time before you become hypnotized by it. I see a dog gazing up at me and I think about nothing except where it's going to put its dirty tongue and paws next. It must take some real country boy hangin' around in order to get THAT acquainted with the species. The level of dog-worship just makes me wonder how one acquires such a state of mind as to see human qualities in a dog. We don't do this with other animals and yet many of us are convinced that they are special, even though they are not even close to being related according to the theory of evolution. What people see in dogs is what they want to see.

Suzanimal
01-03-2014, 10:14 AM
Dogs have way more sense than they're given credit for...


World's Smartest Dog? Meet a Border Collie Whose Memory Astounds


BS host Neil deGrasse Tyson visited Pilley and Chaser recently for a Nova documentary and quizzed the dog's remarkable memory with a random sampling of toys. The toys were placed in another room, and as Tyson called out the items by name, Chaser would go and retrieve them.

Tyson also brought along a new toy -- a doll named "Darwin" -- which Chaser had never seen before. When he asked her to find it in the other room, Chaser could locate the doll amid the other toys, inferring that the new object was connected with the new word.

"Whoa! " Tyson said to Chaser, tail wagging with "Darwin" in her mouth.

Chaser has also demonstrated the ability to understand verbs, including "find," "nose" and "paw," performing each of the actions on any of the 1000 objects.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/world-smartest-dog-nova-special-shows-border-collie/story?id=12875750

The video at the link is very cool..

PaulConventionWV
01-03-2014, 10:16 AM
Anyone who believes that animals don't have emotions has never had one they formed a relationship with or watched them closely at all. Animals bond with their owners and other animals and GRIEVE when they are gone. They also express love and a variety of other emotions toward each other and their human owners.

You're trying to combat science with anecdotes. It's just not going to work. What you see in dogs is what you want to see. Love doesn't even enter the equation.

PaulConventionWV
01-03-2014, 10:22 AM
Your whole premise is stupid. You seem to believe that you have to be able to converse with a dog in English for there to be communication. There are all types of ways to communicate with another being. Language is only one of them.

No, language is everything. There's sign language, there's French, English, Swahili, none of which dogs can do. It's not just the language barrier either. Dogs aren't carrying out lives as complex as ours only in a different language. The truth is that their lives and thought processes are barely a fraction as complex as ours. They are incapable of understanding us no matter what. That's science speaking. I don't rule anything out, but as Ron Paul would say, this is about as close to ruling it out as I can get without speaking in absolute terms.


Actually, my comment had to do with your apparent inability to see outside of the little box that you are operating within.

It's not a box, it's reality. There's a fine line between closed-mindedness and refusing to believe a lie. You want to believe, and I'm not so inclined to. That's the difference.

:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

You did attack me, no? You obviously have very strong feelings on this issue that don't seem to be based on any sort of fact-oriented examination of the issue.

PaulConventionWV
01-03-2014, 10:23 AM
Lol, SCIENCE!

Indeed. This is one area where I trust science doesn't have an agenda.

PaulConventionWV
01-03-2014, 10:23 AM
Well, if I'm a UFO enthusiast, I gotta be delighted this morning as I've found in you a member of the Borg. "You will be assimilated! All other species have no value!"

And that totally makes sense.

PaulConventionWV
01-03-2014, 10:24 AM
You're fuggin kidding me, right? AF started these threads on dog killings awhile ago with one explicit purpose in mind. To elicit empathy over police abuse on humans. There is plenty to say regarding the kills or torture of citizens by cops. However, there will always be those that say "he was a bad character", "well he shouldn't have...." or any number of excuses. It's pretty tough to defend someone shooting a 15# puppy. The outrage over killings of dogs have brought awareness to others about police brutality within my circle. I know it has for others as well.
So you're not a dog lover. No big deal. However, you need to understand that to others they are an integrally related member of the family. Explain it away as much as you wish but some need to realize that ignoring it may be at their own peril.

I'm just saying there are people like that. They're in this thread if you want to look back at it.

SeanTX
01-03-2014, 10:30 AM
What people see in dogs is what they want to see.

Yes, and it's really none of your business, so untwist your panties and quit whining. You can have your own values and beliefs, other people can have theirs -- it's called "freedom."

JK/SEA
01-03-2014, 10:31 AM
You're not helping you're case when you say you talk to plants. Talking to dogs as if they were plants that respond to sound stimuli by nature means they are programmed to be that way. They do not understand you. They simply receive the stimulus and react to it. No comprehension, no abstract thought, just cause and effect.

Animals do not understand you. Their brains simply can't do that. They are not made for that.

God has spoken. I'm impressed.

PaulConventionWV
01-03-2014, 10:33 AM
Yes, and it's really none of your business, so untwist your panties and quit whining. You can have your own values and beliefs, other people can have theirs -- it's called "freedom."

Did I ever try to take away anyone's freedom. Untwist your panties and stop whining about my values and beliefs. I'm making a moral statement, not arresting someone for disagreeing with me.

PaulConventionWV
01-03-2014, 10:36 AM
God has spoken. I'm impressed.

This is scientific fact. Go look it up and then try to offer some evidence to the contrary. You haven't challenged me for not offering evidence because you already know it's true. This is not even a debate amongst anyone except people trying to keep the delusion alive in order to maintain their relationship with their dogs. I'm not the only one in this thread pointing that out, either. Most rational people know this to be true.

osan
01-03-2014, 10:40 AM
Exceptions are the reason we got where we are.

Good point.


I'm as angry as anyone here, but too many of you lose your heads and advocate torture or going ape-shit on a cop who shoots a dog, yet you say nothing about the cop that kills or tortures a human to death. What is this sickness?

I don't think anyone is suggesting any such thing, really. Shooting a cop dead as stone in defense of another life, even that of a dog, is wholly justifiable in terms of moral principle. My dogs are members of my family. I would plug any cop attempting to bring them to harm - no questions and no hesitation on that. They are also legally regarded as property and I reserve every right to defend my property against violation at the hands of any man, cops included.

None of that is "going ape-shit" in the sense I take you to intend. It is called defense of self, of others, and of property. No man holds authority to violate the rights of others. Those with badges hold even less authority precisely because of what the badge is supposed to mean.

PaulConventionWV
01-03-2014, 10:43 AM
Good point.



I don't think anyone is suggesting any such thing, really. Shooting a cop dead as stone in defense of another life, even that of a dog, is wholly justifiable in terms of moral principle. My dogs are members of my family. I would plug any cop attempting to bring them to harm - no questions and no hesitation on that. They are also legally regarded as property and I reserve every right to defend my property against violation at the hands of any man, cops included.

None of that is "going ape-shit" in the sense I take you to intend. It is called defense of self, of others, and of property. No man holds authority to violate the rights of others. Those with badges hold even less authority precisely because of what the badge is supposed to mean.

Then we have two different definitions because I think trying to avenge a dog is nowhere near being worth the repercussions. Choose your battles, don't get killed over a dog. Apparently this not a very popular belief and I am absolutely bewildered by that.

JK/SEA
01-03-2014, 10:48 AM
This is scientific fact. Go look it up and then try to offer some evidence to the contrary. You haven't challenged me for not offering evidence because you already know it's true. This is not even a debate amongst anyone except people trying to keep the delusion alive in order to maintain their relationship with their dogs. I'm not the only one in this thread pointing that out, either. Most rational people know this to be true.

ya lost me at 'scientific fact'...thanks for the laugh.

Settled science right?...because as we all know, when someone proclaims...'scientific fact' 'settled science', or whatever, all research into said issue ends. Yes...no..?

phill4paul
01-03-2014, 10:57 AM
I'm just saying there are people like that. They're in this thread if you want to look back at it.

This is from your post.


yet you say nothing about the cop that kills or tortures a human to death.

Who here has had "nothing to say" regarding cops that torture and kill humans? You'll have to cite the post for me. I'm not seeing it.

chudrockz
01-03-2014, 11:24 AM
Then we have two different definitions because I think trying to avenge a dog is nowhere near being worth the repercussions. Choose your battles, don't get killed over a dog. Apparently this not a very popular belief and I am absolutely bewildered by that.

You're bewildered by it because your moral compass is fubared. You either had a bad experience with a dog as a child or have never taken time to get to know one. It's too bad, really.

LibertyEagle
01-03-2014, 01:35 PM
No, language is everything. There's sign language, there's French, English, Swahili, none of which dogs can do. It's not just the language barrier either. Dogs aren't carrying out lives as complex as ours only in a different language. The truth is that their lives and thought processes are barely a fraction as complex as ours. They are incapable of understanding us no matter what. That's science speaking. I don't rule anything out, but as Ron Paul would say, this is about as close to ruling it out as I can get without speaking in absolute terms.



It's not a box, it's reality. There's a fine line between closed-mindedness and refusing to believe a lie. You want to believe, and I'm not so inclined to. That's the difference.

:rolleyes:

I am speaking from personal experience, of which you clearly have none.


You did attack me, no? You obviously have very strong feelings on this issue that don't seem to be based on any sort of fact-oriented examination of the issue.

You have attacked most everyone in this thread, so go look in the mirror bud.


Then we have two different definitions because I think trying to avenge a dog is nowhere near being worth the repercussions. Choose your battles, don't get killed over a dog. Apparently this not a very popular belief and I am absolutely bewildered by that.

Some animals are like family members to their owners and they couldn't love them more if they had been human. Sadly, you clearly have not experienced this kind of relationship with an animal. You are missing out.


This is scientific fact. Go look it up and then try to offer some evidence to the contrary. You haven't challenged me for not offering evidence because you already know it's true. This is not even a debate amongst anyone except people trying to keep the delusion alive in order to maintain their relationship with their dogs. I'm not the only one in this thread pointing that out, either. Most rational people know this to be true.

The only person I saw high-fiving you was heavenlyboy. So, there goes your alibi.

Ender
01-03-2014, 03:05 PM
No, language is everything. There's sign language, there's French, English, Swahili, none of which dogs can do. It's not just the language barrier either. Dogs aren't carrying out lives as complex as ours only in a different language. The truth is that their lives and thought processes are barely a fraction as complex as ours. They are incapable of understanding us no matter what. That's science speaking. I don't rule anything out, but as Ron Paul would say, this is about as close to ruling it out as I can get without speaking in absolute terms.



It's not a box, it's reality. There's a fine line between closed-mindedness and refusing to believe a lie. You want to believe, and I'm not so inclined to. That's the difference.

:rolleyes:



Language is NOT everything; no language can convey true meaning or what is in a person's heart. Why do you think other people can become so upset over something you might say that was perfectly innocent in your mind?

Language has always been the map- it has NEVER been the destination.

And YES- plants & animals respond to music.

osan
01-03-2014, 04:35 PM
Then we have two different definitions because I think trying to avenge a dog is nowhere near being worth the repercussions.

You are confusing two points and giving a false motive for action. Firstly, I am speaking in normative terms and not the positive. It may well not be worth the repercussions, but that does not alter the normative truth that it is well within the bounds of morality to defend the life of another living being against the acts of another, cop or otherwise. As I wrote before, it is justifiable on the property rights basis alone.

As for motive, vengeance does not have to enter into the picture: defense of life and property, however, do. If a cop was about to light a match and burn down your house, would you consider it justifiable to shoot his stupid ass deader than stone, or do you feel he is entitled to do so more than you are to defend yourself? If you feel you are, then what about if he is going to destroy your automobile? Your clothes dryer? A TV? A laptop? Your cell phone? If at some point you agree that property defense against police is valid, but not where it comes to a dog, then at what place do you draw your line? I don't draw a line. If a cop is robbing me of a stick of gum he has, in principle, forfeited his right to live. This is not to say I WOULD plug him or anyone else for a stick of gum, but that they get away with it only at MY discretion.

We either possess property rights or we do not. If we do, the right is absolute and inviolate. Anything less than this and the right is no right at all.


Choose your battles, don't get killed over a dog. Apparently this not a very popular belief and I am absolutely bewildered by that.

Your position is reasonable in positive terms and speaks to positive cases in the real world and is a matter of personal judgment. You may be failing to distinguish between positive and normative discourse. I usually speak in the latter because that is what should underpin the former. If we have no normative standard then the world goes wild west and nihilism threatens to rule the day. I do not think anyone would want to see that happen.

Anti Federalist
01-03-2014, 05:36 PM
Then we have two different definitions because I think trying to avenge a dog is nowhere near being worth the repercussions. Choose your battles, don't get killed over a dog. Apparently this not a very popular belief and I am absolutely bewildered by that.

To many people, dogs are like family, like people.

Cops know and understand this.

That's why they are blowing them away with impunity.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

It will be, in many cases, it is, people being blown away with equal impunity.

Because we did not stop it with dogs.

Anti Federalist
01-03-2014, 06:18 PM
Apparently you have to stare into its eyes for extremely long periods of time before you become hypnotized by it. I see a dog gazing up at me and I think about nothing except where it's going to put its dirty tongue and paws next. It must take some real country boy hangin' around in order to get THAT acquainted with the species. The level of dog-worship just makes me wonder how one acquires such a state of mind as to see human qualities in a dog. We don't do this with other animals and yet many of us are convinced that they are special, even though they are not even close to being related according to the theory of evolution. What people see in dogs is what they want to see.

Just remember...Dog spelled backward is God. ;)

osan
01-03-2014, 06:18 PM
No, language is everything. There's sign language, there's French, English, Swahili, none of which dogs can do. It's not just the language barrier either. Dogs aren't carrying out lives as complex as ours only in a different language. The truth is that their lives and thought processes are barely a fraction as complex as ours. They are incapable of understanding us no matter what. That's science speaking. I don't rule anything out, but as Ron Paul would say, this is about as close to ruling it out as I can get without speaking in absolute terms.

Dear God... where DID you go to school? They need to be spanked for what they have done here.

Your view of language in the sense of the means of communication is narrow. You cite "science" but I am not sure you know what it is in fuller measure. Are you a trained scientist? I am, in physics and computer science. I have dealt closely with "science" all my life and have studied the philosophy of science not only alone but under the tutelage of K. D. Irani (see kdirani.com) and Martin Tamney, both from the Dept. of Philosophy at the City University of New York. I have lived most of my life way down in the rabbit hole and have come to some fair to middling understanding of what science is, and is not - and of the sorts of things to which is can be effectively applied, as well as its limitations even there.

There are many things we can learn about dogs through scientific method, but that to which you refer even if only by implication is not one of them. One cannot understand the internal personal experience of a dog without making a substantial set of assumptions, any number of which may be wrong. To say that science has spoken and "proves" that a dog experiences this and does not feel that is preposterous in the extreme. I would add that there is NO scientific experiement that can be devised to prove intent, and likewise, internal experience. I am nearly confident in asserting that you have no idea what a dog's internal, private experience of life it.

And let us bear in mind that negative assertions cannot be proven save in those cases where a necessarily extant and exclusive compliment can be shown to exist. If you can prove the one and the exclusive nature, then you have disproved the negative. Other than that, there is no other possible way. There is no proving what a dog thinks, save only in the most ham-fisted ways and understanding is therefore and perforce precarious at best. We can't even decipher the minds of other human beings. Do you think for a moment that anyone understands the inner world of men like Jeff Dahmer in anything but the most conceptually removed manner? Then what of dogs and cats?

I could go on for a long while on the philosophical points demonstrating just how mistaken you are on these points, but I suspect that it would be a waste of time. Believe as you wish, of course. I would have it no other way, but I would respectfully suggest you open your mind a bit and try to dig a little deeper down that rabbit hole. Once you go past a barrier that your stated positions clearly indicate you have yet to breach, one's perspectives on things alter profoundly and broadly. I can tell you this from first-hand experience. And the good bit in all of it is you don't have to be a rocket surgeon to attain the goal - only the desire and determination are needed. Were it otherwise I'd still be up top, somewhere, unable to find my ass with both hands and a flashlight. This is just another example of God's generosity - we are almost all of is gifted with the ability to see things that are worth seeing - things that broaden our horizons and wisen us just enough to make a real difference in our own lives as well as those of others if we so choose to render help.


It's not a box, it's reality.

There's your problem - you think you know reality. Oh ho ho... :)


There's a fine line between closed-mindedness and refusing to believe a lie.

I agree with this, and would point out that you may benefit from heeding your own observation.

Natural Citizen
01-03-2014, 06:39 PM
Dogs aren't carrying out lives as complex as ours..



Well. The thing with dogs is that they don't reason. They simply react. Reason, in terms of humans, is fudged up by morality. "Complex" as you mention.

I have 6 working dogs at the moment and have had many others in years past. I'd say that, in our natural human state, dogs understand us just fine. Of course, I don't view morality as a natural phenomenon though. These are social constructs which contradict the natural drive that occurs in nature. And, yes...it is a very complex and quirky barrier in nature, this moral complexity, and does serve as a theoretical "language" barrier.

Dogs react. They don't reason. Pack structure equates to family values. Although contradictory because of man's artificial/socially manufactured evolution that removes him from nature. Which is simply my opinion. Nothing else.

Origanalist
01-03-2014, 10:40 PM
Well, I like dogs.

Christian Liberty
01-03-2014, 10:45 PM
Forgive me, but that is just retarded. I assume you would do the same for a human, yes? Any human? If you had to choose, you would choose the human, right? Right?

Also, you wouldn't face jail time. You would be dead before you knew it. Are you willing to die for a facking animal?

First of all, this guy is a Hitler-apologist, so I wouldn't expect much reason out of him. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest by this man valuing human life over a dog's life.

That said, I'm not about to go kill a cop because they abused someone's liberty halfway around the country. Its not my place, anymore than its the United States' place to deal with tyranny in Iraq, or whatever (I know the US is tyrannical in its own ways, but that's not the point). If someone who I knew had a crime committed against them by a cop and asked me to avenge them, you might have a point, but I don't think its my duty to avenge just any person in the country who has a crime committed against them.

As for dogs, I don't like 'em at all and I still agree with what FSU says about being willing to shoot a cop who killed a hypothetical dog of mine (I do NOT agree with his insinuation that it is just as bad or worse for a cop to kill a dog as it is a human.) I don't think that its hypocrtical to put yourself and your own family first. Maybe its wrong, but its not hypocritical. And there really is a difference in somebody doing something to you VS to somebody else.


Exceptions are the reason we got where we are.

I'm as angry as anyone here, but too many of you lose your heads and advocate torture or going ape-shit on a cop who shoots a dog, yet you say nothing about the cop that kills or tortures a human to death. What is this sickness?

I'm really not sure where you get this from.

I'm morally opposed to torture period, I'm with Ron Paul and Laurence Vance on this one being a moral no brainer. Killing someone can act as a deterrent or be a necessary act in order to prevent someone from doing evil in the future, but I don't see any reason for torture, ever. I can understand the desire for revenge, but ultimately I believe that's wrong.

That said, I do believe any badged official who commits a crime (Any crime) against a civilian should be punished by death, for a couple of reasons:

1. They are given, by law, the moral right to aggress, and civilians are not given the legal right to retaliate. All such laws are wrong, of course. A cop who engages in a drug raid is no better than an armed burglar, and it isn't immoral to treat them the same way. However, it is illegal. If a civilian harasses you, you can defend yourself and get away with it (Well, in at least some parts of the country) but generally not with cops. The cops also know the law will generally let them go.

2. They are, in effect, at war with the people. Now, there might be a few "good cops": there are certainly some that mean well, but those would certainly not go BEYOND what the law requires when it comes to aggression (Incidentally, I would certainly argue that those who aggress to the level that the law requires are still bad, but if they go beyond, there is no possible arguments for ignorance.)

Being in a position of authority, whether real or imagined, makes the crime significantly worse. Kind of like how rape is always wrong, but its even worse if its your own child... or a schoolteacher to a student. Its really hard to argue with that point. I suppose its possible to argue that killing them might be too harsh, but I don't think it is. After all, they were in a position of authority (Whether real or imagined isn't the point: I'd agree it ain't rational, but their position of "authority" is legally protected) and they used that authority, the protection of the mightiest gang on the planet (the US government) to protect them in doing so. Frankly, I can't think of anything more sick than doing that, even if the crime they try to get away with is relatively minor (dog-killing... as compared to murder.)

(Note that "relatively" is the key word here. I'm not saying it actually is minor, just minor compared to murder.)


How very strange. He was giving a scenario of someone beating his dog for no good reason and you appear to be condoning the person who would do such a despicable thing. Very strange indeed.

I think there's a difference between "hitting" a dog and beating on them. I'm somewhat afraid of dogs, especially big ones that jump. My grandma's dog jumps on me, and while I verbally command her to stop first, sometimes she doesn't. I've hit her before to get her off of me, but I didn't "beat" her. Was that wrong? Maybe. She wasn't actually harming me. But hitting her a single time to get her off of me, and "beating" her would be completely different.

All that said, I don't really agree with animal rights, at least not to the point where I think they should be codified into law. We kill and eat animals so "consent" is really a moot point when it comes to them. I'd say that someone who beats their dog is morally sick because they make an animal needlessly suffer, but I don't think violence (against a person) is the way to handle it. Of course, beating someone else's dog is damaging their property and is another issue entirely.

Natural Citizen
01-03-2014, 10:59 PM
I think there's a difference between "hitting" a dog and beating on them.

Not really. They're both impractical. You should never hit your dog. Ever.

Here. Watch nature at work. Just skip to 2:00. It's a simple correction from mom. A learning experience for junior. One he'll surely remember.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_OHwDtOjUk

phill4paul
01-03-2014, 11:13 PM
Dogs react. They don't reason.

I've watched dogs thoroughly confused by a situation come to some sort of understanding. To take what is known, what is felt and what is sensed and come up with a course of action. If this is not reasoning then I don't know what is. I've seen many animals do this in an unfamiliar environment.

Christian Liberty
01-03-2014, 11:17 PM
Even the most die-hard statist is worth more than a dog.

I agree, but if someone tries to damage your property, you have a right to take them out. That's probably not ideal if the alternative is to make them face the justice system later on. On the other hand, if the alternative is that they are legally protected and continue to be allowed to destroy other people's property, you're probably doing every other (innocent) human being a favor by taking them out.

Personally,I generally wouldn't kill anyone over property, but if a cop actually broke into my house and pulled a gun on me, I wouldn't worry about whether his intent was to kill me or my hypothetical dog. If I had a gun (I don't ATM), I'd take him out just like I would any other armed robber who broke into my house.

Ok, but how do you measure that passion and compare it to someone else's. More to the point, why does it matter how much conviction he had?

I think the thing here is that Hitler was actually evil, (unregenerate, and a mass murderer) while a dog has no soul or morality at all. Its not even realy that you can say Hitler is "Worth more" than the dog, its a completely different measuring stick. A dog has no inherent value (other than economic) but might have emotional value to the owner. (A wedding ring might similarly have emotional appeal to the owner, but has no such value INHERENTLY.) Hitler, on the other hand, was a mass murderer who deserved death, and who's death would have been good for humanity. Its not really the same thing.

Christian Liberty
01-03-2014, 11:20 PM
Not really. They're both impractical. You should never hit your dog. Ever.



That's not really the point I'm arguing here. I'm saying its not the same thing, not that you actually should. I'm not arguing the point of whether its ever actually OK to hit your dog one way or another.

You should never steal, but it would still be absurd to say stealing and murder are the same thing.

Natural Citizen
01-03-2014, 11:21 PM
I've watched dogs thoroughly confused by a situation come to some sort of understanding. To take what is known, what is felt and what is sensed and come up with a course of action. If this is not reasoning then I don't know what is. I've seen many animals do this in an unfamiliar environment.

Yeah, me too. Weird, huh? I do wonder sometimes. Are you talking about during human interaction or among themselves?

Natural Citizen
01-03-2014, 11:26 PM
That's not really the point I'm arguing here. I'm saying its not the same thing, not that you actually should. I'm not arguing the point of whether its ever actually OK to hit your dog one way or another.

You should never steal, but it would still be absurd to say stealing and murder are the same thing.

I know. I was just trying to separate the logic or mechanisms that influence logic from humans and animals. I wasn't saying not to hit your dog because it's not OK. That's a moral judgement. which is irrelevant when we think of correcting dogs. hitting them just doesn't work is what i was saying. You can "hit" them when soliciting drive but it's a different kind of hitting. I don't know, ff. Was a fail, I suppose. Disregard.

phill4paul
01-03-2014, 11:35 PM
Yeah, me too. Weird, huh? I do wonder sometimes. Are you talking about during human interaction or among themselves?

I'm talking unseen observer and alone. Human interaction will skew their reactions. As will pack. Follow a puppy in the woods. Watch when he encounters different things. There is a primordal instinct. One which we humans share. There is also a reasoning. One which is known, felt and sensed vs. what is presented and how to deal with it. Much like humans.

Natural Citizen
01-03-2014, 11:46 PM
I'm talking unseen observer and alone. Human interaction will skew their reactions. As will pack. Follow a puppy in the woods. Watch when he encounters different things. There is a primordal instinct. One which we humans share. There is also a reasoning. One which is known, felt and sensed vs. what is presented and how to deal with it. Much like humans.

Oh, I see. I've seen this. I think they're more in tune with nature than humans and react to it naturally but like I said, it's just my opinion. It doesn't mean I'm right. Humans don't really react to nature as a whole. I don't think that they interact with it naturally either. I think their ability to reason gets in the way. It is similar though but much different at the same time.

Who knows. It sure is interesting though, I agree. I know that I've changed my mind a few times on it. Will probably do so again eventually.

phill4paul
01-04-2014, 12:06 AM
Not really. They're both impractical. You should never hit your dog. Ever.

I'm not a big fan of this though it does have it's place. A pitbull bitch, who's ill temper was caused by tumors and skin condition (no fault of her own), went after a new addition to the family (dog not human). I hit her square between the eyes sitting her on her ass. Damn near broke my hand. She never went after the new addition again. The new addition was my dog and me to the pack of my lady. The dog wasn't right in the head because of her infirmities (tumors and skin condition ) and should have been put down. After attacks on other dogs in the house I convinced my missus to put her down. It culminated when she attacked her son (dog) during a get together. Three grown men were pulling from each of their hind legs trying to separate them. Unsuccessfully. I grabbed the water hose and put it full blast up her nose. Bingo. So I finally convinced the missus to put her down but her ex did an end run with the vet. Took her home, spent $6k on trying to fix her up and called and cried because he had to put her down because she fucked up his dog while he was at work. Realize, none of her aggression was innate. It was caused only by her pain.

Still, it is a terrible training method. I would not have used it if it were not a serious situation.

chudrockz
01-04-2014, 06:07 AM
https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/576579_10203108852187344_1450746724_n.jpg

Dog bless AMERICA, some day I'll be able to consistently put pictures on a forum without being dazed and confused for an hour before giving up.

THERE. It only took three cups of coffee and four hours or so after waking up to do that!! Sheesh.

chudrockz
01-04-2014, 09:58 AM
It seems that picture goes away if I shut my email. I really, really hate my lack of computer knowledge sometimes. Anyhow.

Suzanimal
01-04-2014, 10:41 AM
It seems that picture goes away if I shut my email. I really, really hate my lack of computer knowledge sometimes. Anyhow.

I use imgur.com, it's pretty easy, just follow their directions.
Cute dog.

LibertyEagle
01-04-2014, 10:45 AM
tinypic is good too.

chudrockz
01-04-2014, 04:38 PM
Thanks for the recommendations on picture posting and such. I'll have to refer back to this when I'm stumped the next time I try to post one. Say in a day or two. :)

In the meantime, I made the mistake a few hours ago of actually visiting a very rabid anti pit bull page on Facebook. Wow, there is some hatred out there. They LITERALLY believe that EVERY single one is just biding their time, acting sweet, till they see red and rip out everyone's throat. One person said it's a mental disorder akin to pedophilia to want to have a pitbull sleeping in bed with you. I feel sooo sorry for people like that. :(

Suzanimal
01-04-2014, 05:15 PM
Thanks for the recommendations on picture posting and such. I'll have to refer back to this when I'm stumped the next time I try to post one. Say in a day or two. :)

In the meantime, I made the mistake a few hours ago of actually visiting a very rabid anti pit bull page on Facebook. Wow, there is some hatred out there. They LITERALLY believe that EVERY single one is just biding their time, acting sweet, till they see red and rip out everyone's throat. One person said it's a mental disorder akin to pedophilia to want to have a pitbull sleeping in bed with you. I feel sooo sorry for people like that. :(

My brother has some kind of Pit mix (he got him at some rescue)and he looks vicious, if Mike Tyson were a dog that's what he would look like. At first I like WTF!:eek: but he is actually a really sweet dog. I love their faces, they're very expressive. I have a blind, lazy 14 year old Cocker Mix...who likes baths in the jacuzzi tub, I need to get a pic of him with jets going and the bubbles all foamy, he loves it, it's like he's a puppy again. Here's one of him after bath...

http://i.imgur.com/MYoVuOal.jpg

chudrockz
01-04-2014, 05:37 PM
My brother has some kind of Pit mix (he got him at some rescue)and he looks vicious, if Mike Tyson were a dog that's what he would look like. At first I like WTF!:eek: but he is actually a really sweet dog. I love their faces, they're very expressive. I have a blind, lazy 14 year old Cocker Mix...who likes baths in the jacuzzi tub, I need to get a pic of him with jets going and the bubbles all foamy, he loves it, it's like he's a puppy again. Here's one of him after bath...

http://i.imgur.com/MYoVuOal.jpg

That's super cute!

And yeah, most of the pits I have met have been very sweet. Only one that I can think of ATM was kind of "neutral," and I've never met one yet that was mean.

Last night I was sitting cross-legged on the floor in the basement scooping out litter boxes (we also have nine rescued cats), and she came down to sit next to me while I was doing it. At one point when I had my arm down, she stood and gently tried to get in my lap. I told her, "No, Snowflake, you can't sit on my lap right now, I have to finish cleaning the litter boxes first!" Her FACE just looked like she was crushed, and she backed out from under my arm and started to walk away, till I called her back and she flew at me tail wagging and tongue licking lick crazy. She's a really great dog.

chudrockz
01-04-2014, 06:31 PM
http://i43.tinypic.com/jtwgsw.jpg

A close up edit of her visit with Santa a couple of weeks ago.

LibertyEagle
01-04-2014, 06:41 PM
Chud, the only thing you can post is a graphic file, such as a .jpg. So, you need to save off the picture as some kind of graphic file first and then you can upload it say, using tinypic.com. Then you can link to it here in a post.

Anti Federalist
01-04-2014, 06:44 PM
https://www.facebook.com/ajax/messaging/attachment.php?attach_id=bb4e2009-bc51-47a6-a470-01a24c7db494&mid=id.571490972925115&hash=AQDDxOWs0uRbyo1v

A close up edit of her visit with Santa a couple of weeks ago.

www.imgur.com

"Upload" pics from website.

Paste url.

Click "upload".

Once the pic is there, click on "properties" if you are using IE.

Highlight and "copy" image link.

Come back here, paste the link in a post and put this front of the link and at the end.

chudrockz
01-04-2014, 06:47 PM
Chud, the only thing you can post is a graphic file, such as a .jpg. So, you need to save off the picture as some kind of graphic file first and then you can upload it say, using tinypic.com. Then you can link to it here in a post.

Thanks. I think I did it now.

You know, I consider myself to be of above average intelligence, but I sure am dense when it comes to computers. If it's not reading a forum, checking my email, or playing cards, I just don't get it!