Democrats Turn to Minimum Wage as 2014 Strategy

[CaseyJones]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/30/us/politics/democrats-turn-to-minimum-wage-as-2014-strategy.html


Democratic Party leaders, bruised by months of attacks on the new health care program, have found an issue they believe can lift their fortunes both locally and nationally in 2014: an increase in the minimum wage.

The effort to take advantage of growing populism among voters in both parties is being coordinated by officials from the White House, labor unions and liberal advocacy groups.

In a series of strategy meetings and conference calls among them in recent weeks, they have focused on two levels: an effort to raise the federal minimum wage, which will be pushed by President Obama and congressional leaders, and a campaign to place state-level minimum wage proposals on the ballot in states with hotly contested congressional races.

With polls showing widespread support for an increase in the $7.25-per-hour federal minimum wage among both Republican and Democratic voters, top Democrats see not only a wedge issue that they hope will place Republican candidates in a difficult position, but also a tool with which to enlarge the electorate in a nonpresidential election, when turnout among minorities and youths typically drops off.

“It puts Republicans on the wrong side of an important value issue when it comes to fairness,” said Dan Pfeiffer, the president’s senior adviser. “You can make a very strong case that this will be a helpful issue for Democrats in 2014. But the goal here is to actually get it done. That’s why the president put it on the agenda.”

Top Republicans assert that a wage increase would dampen the economic recovery and indicated after Mr. Obama mentioned the issue in his State of the Union speech this year that they had no intention of bringing a minimum-wage increase to a vote in the House, which they control.

“Why would we want to make it harder for small employers to hire people?” Speaker John A. Boehner of Ohio said.

[Paulbot99]

Just make it a million dollars. Then we can all be millionaires. ;)

[Mr.NoSmile]

Well yeah, if the other side doesn't exactly have a strong argument, they come out looking like the bad guys. Thing is, people who make the claim of 'Well why don't we make the minimum wage a thousand dollars' or something like that ought to realize that people who work minimum wage a. shouldn't make that type of money to begin with and b. given the lack of actual experience needed for low paying jobs, it wouldn't make sense to make it very very high. Plus, good question to ask is where does the money come from to pay workers and maintain an increased minimum wage?

[HOLLYWOOD]

Raise it high enough to eliminate ALL WELFARE... then lets see how the moocher class feels when they have to spend their own money to live, on top of being pushed into the higher tax brackets and not receiving all the discounts for government stolen money. How will Marxists, Fascists, and Communists in government, survive... how will they then, buy votes with crumbs?

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/11-2/welfare%20cliff.jpg

[philipped]

If congress is going to seriously consider it, why not just raise min. wage to a partial adjustment to inflation? Or would that be showing that the value of the dollar has decreased too much in recent times...?

[Neil Desmond]

Raising the minimum wage is harmful to the economy because it destroys jobs. Maybe the Democrats will understand this someday. If I were the leader of the Democrat party and I wanted to make some kickass moves, I would call for 2 things:

The first would be for lowering, not increasing, the federal minimum wage significantly, to maybe 75% - 80% of what it is now.

The second would be for a law that gives employers the right to pay their employees anything within the federal minimum wage.

If they did that, they'd pwn the Republicans in elections like they never have before. But alas, I'm not the leader of the Democrat party, or even a Democrat in general, so I don't advocate for such things & I suppose they'll never happen.

[LibForestPaul]

They raise the minimum wage only to later tax it.

[gwax23]

If congress is going to seriously consider it, why not just raise min. wage to a partial adjustment to inflation? Or would that be showing that the value of the dollar has decreased too much in recent times...?

No. Inflation erodes the effect of the minimum wage by making the government set minimum so low in real terms that it becomes meaningless since most by that time will be paid more than minimum.

[philipped]

No. Inflation erodes the effect of the minimum wage by making the government set minimum so low in real terms that it becomes meaningless since most by that time will be paid more than minimum.
Oh so basically I was thinking inflation should raise min. wage when it actually lowers it?

[kill the banks]

seeing we're all corporate fiction anyway why not cut us in for dividends and send us some stocks in the fraud
(maybe a free parking space)



http://scully13.wordpress.com/men-of-dark-intentions-i/

[gwax23]

Oh so basically I was thinking inflation should raise min. wage when it actually lowers it?

In terms of purchasing power yes.

[DamianTV]

So, their solution to the consequences of printing up too much money is to print up even more money!

/sigh

[otherone]

....so they lose the middleclass with barrycare, and think they'll get them back by paying the cashier at the drive-through more? Or maybe they figure that the former middle class will all be working a register at Target for this election cycle?

[tod evans]

So, their solution to the consequences of printing up too much money is to print up even more money!

/sigh

Derp........A-Yeah.........Derp...

$25.00 minimum wage ought to make life grand..:rolleyes:

[Brian4Liberty]

More immigration! Higher minimum wage! More food stamps, welfare and unemployment!

Go Democrats!

[tod evans]

More immigration! Higher minimum wage! More food stamps, welfare and unemployment!

Go Democrats!

Fuck yeah!

USA!, USA!, USA!

[Origanalist]

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/money-in-air.jpg

http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/2/0/8/4/1/9/9/bin-44431342961.jpeg

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/sheeple1.jpg

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/Sheeple-14-(R).jpg

[TaftFan]

In response, Republicans should offer a brand new jobs bill. The bill would abolish the minimum wage.

[tod evans]

In response, Republicans should offer a brand new jobs bill. The bill would abolish the minimum wage.

Republicans are no more of a friend to the common man than democrats, they're opposite sides of the same coin...

Bend over and like it.....

[otherone]

In response, Republicans should offer a brand new jobs bill. The bill would abolish the minimum wage.

The GOP is too busy cutting off it's nose to spite it's face to create anything of value.

[kathy88]

Republicans are no more of a friend to the common man than democrats, they're opposite sides of the same coin...

Bend over and like it.....no doubt! It boggles my mind that anyone would think differently.

[angelatc]

The GOP won't get ahead as long as they're kept on defense.

[parocks]

Just make it a million dollars. Then we can all be millionaires. ;)

They've never, ever, ever raised the minimum wage before. This is unprecedented. Oh, wait, they raise the minimum wage all the time, without much controversy.

[iFree]

Why not just raise the minimum wage to $50/hour? How about $100? That'll get the voters on the Dems' side... that is, until everybody loses their jobs and the only positions left are with the federal gov. Hmm... it's almost *too* easy.

[parocks]

If congress is going to seriously consider it, why not just raise min. wage to a partial adjustment to inflation? Or would that be showing that the value of the dollar has decreased too much in recent times...?

Apparently no one here understands that the Federal Minimum Wage started in 1938, and it was a quarter an hour. It goes up all the time and it doesn't actually effect the overall economy very much.

The people who benefit from keeping the minimum wage low support the Romney's and not the Paul's. But the Romney supporters are plenty happy to have Ron Paul supporters taking the "screw the poor people who actually work" side of the issue.

We don't live in a free market. McDonald's has a dollar value menu. Prices of the inputs change all the time, yet McDonalds is able to keep the prices the same.

We don't want to be fighting this battle.

Until the Government stops taking so much of our money, we don't live in a free market. So, put away your charts and graphs. McDonalds is an oligopoly, Supermarkets are oligopolies, the Government takes half our money to spy on us, squeezing the nuts of the poorest folks doesn't make us any friends.

[DamianTV]

Apparently no one here understands that the Federal Minimum Wage started in 1938, and it was a quarter an hour. It goes up all the time and it doesn't actually effect the overall economy very much.

The people who benefit from keeping the minimum wage low support the Romney's and not the Paul's. But the Romney supporters are plenty happy to have Ron Paul supporters taking the "screw the poor people who actually work" side of the issue.

We don't live in a free market. McDonald's has a dollar value menu. Prices of the inputs change all the time, yet McDonalds is able to keep the prices the same.

We don't want to be fighting this battle.

Until the Government stops taking so much of our money, we don't live in a free market. So, put away your charts and graphs. McDonalds is an oligopoly, Supermarkets are oligopolies, the Government takes half our money to spy on us, squeezing the nuts of the poorest folks doesn't make us any friends.

Exactly.

Dont forget that companies that pay Federal Minimum Wage are subsidised by way of Govt handouts.

---

I try to explain the difference between Quantity and Value of Money all the time. Anyone care to explain it back to me?

[parocks]

Why not just raise the minimum wage to $50/hour? How about $100? That'll get the voters on the Dems' side... that is, until everybody loses their jobs and the only positions left are with the federal gov. Hmm... it's almost *too* easy.

Huh? I think we should just keep doing what we always do, which is to raise the minimum wage a little bit, every so often, to keep pace with inflation.

You do know we've had the minimum wage since 1938, right? And that the minimum wage has gone up dozens of times? Well, nows the time again. No big deal.

Bigger issues are out there.

Was listening to a sporting event on the radio. There was an ad on the radio. Don't drink and drive. We took your money, and we'll arrest you. And we took your money to buy this ad, telling you that we took you money to buy cops who are going to arrest you. Things that that. Basically, everything in the world except the minimum wage, really sucks.

And if libertarians think that griping about poor people not being poor enough is solid thinking, they're sorely mistaken. We don't live in a free market.

[MelissaWV]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQB4nAjZIdE

[angelatc]

Apparently no one here understands that the Federal Minimum Wage started in 1938, and it was a quarter an hour. It goes up all the time and it doesn't actually effect the overall economy very much.

The people who benefit from keeping the minimum wage low support the Romney's and not the Paul's. But the Romney supporters are plenty happy to have Ron Paul supporters taking the "screw the poor people who actually work" side of the issue.


Yeah, right. It goes up all the time, and our economy gets worse and worse. More and more companies move their factories out of America. But that doesn't hurt the economy? Have you been smoking crack?

Dude, if there was no minimum wage, I'd have a couple of high school kids working for me already. And I'm not the only one. Raising the minimum wage only serves to make it harder to start a new business.

[tsai3904]

We don't want to be fighting this battle.

We need to fight this battle. Minimum wage is economics 101. If someone can learn to understand the harmful effects of minimum wage, then they should be able to understand most economic concepts.

[TaftFan]

Another angle the Republicans could use is that this would increase inflation and hurt the elderly and the poor.

[parocks]

Exactly.

Dont forget that companies that pay Federal Minimum Wage are subsidised by way of Govt handouts.

---

I try to explain the difference between Quantity and Value of Money all the time. Anyone care to explain it back to me?



Libertarians have a problem distinguishing between practical solutions to today's problems and "ideal world" solutions. Ideally everyone gets to keep their money. Because they keep their money, they have it to spend. But we don't live in "ideal world" at all.

Day 1 of Econ 101 in college they tell you that we don't live in a free market. Day 2 they forget that, and pretend that we do.

Standard charts and graphs apply in fantasy land. And yes, no doubt, free markets work best to get the people the stuff they want.

And yes, no doubt, a hike in the minimum wage is bound to be inflationary. But nowhere near what people think it's going to be.
Fight the right battles. There is so much sht, and it's getting worse. The minimum wage people, who actually do stuff that I like, like handing me my food, putting my food on the shelfs of the stores, etc etc. I got no problem with them. And 1 out of 50 might lose their job, or might lose 10% of their hours (probably Obamacare related). But they do get a raise. That's real money to them. We aren't talking about the government taking our money to buy ads to remind us that they take our money to push us around. For me, it's decent poor people who aren't screwing me over getting a little raise. And that's just something that has been true my entire lifetime, and probably everyone here's entire lifetime unless there are 75 year olds on this board. There is inflation. It's not being caused by min wage hikes (primarily).

Get rid of the Fed Gov workers COLA. Fire Gov workers. Let us keep our money. We have extra money. We want to spend it. That's where wage hikes should be coming from - the labor is needed, because there's money being spent. But all our money goes to the NSA apparently. I'm guessing housing prices are still doing up in the DC area. The spies gotta live close to big spy buildings near Washington, DC.

Here's another thing. I'd like to see young people with more money in their pocket. They're cooler than old people. Or should be, they typically are. When young consumers have more money to spend, there are more choices for younger, cooler people.

Look what Obamacare did. "Hey young people, we know you won't be going to a hospital anywhere as often as someone 30 years older than you, but we will change you the same as the old people." Younger folks are simply getting screwed.

[Keith and stuff]

I love it. If I run in 2014, I'm going to call for a $100 an hour min. wage. I'll encourage all other Republicans to also support it. $100 an hour an NO LESS because people deserve it. I will not compromise on this issue because the voters deserve my FULL support!

Put up or shut up ;)

[limequat]

Here is a talking point:

"Raising the minimum wage outlaws jobs that are worth less than the minimum wage." Why do you hate the poor?

That one can be tough for the economically illiterate to get their head around.
I like the $1 million minimum wage already proposed. If you can suggest it with a straight face, it could incite some rational though in the receiver of said statement.

[torchbearer]

I'm starting to think we should stop fighting them and let them have everything they want and more...
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1532/3764/1600/Tug%20of%20War%20(Letting%20Go)%20web.jpg
Just let go of the rope and watch them fall.

[limequat]

I love it. If I run in 2014, I'm going to call for a $100 an hour min. wage. I'll encourage all other Republicans to also support it. $100 an hour an NO LESS because people deserve it. I will not compromise on this issue because the voters deserve my FULL support!

Put up or shut up ;)

Lol, awesome! You have my support! I can't think of anything that would kill the economy faster.

[limequat]

I'm starting to think we should stop fighting them and let them have everything they want and more...
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1532/3764/1600/Tug%20of%20War%20(Letting%20Go)%20web.jpg
Just let go of the rope and watch them fall.

Yes of course. That picture sums up the minimum wage fight perfectly.

[tsai3904]

Here's another thing. I'd like to see young people with more money in their pocket. They're cooler than old people. Or should be, they typically are. When young consumers have more money to spend, there are more choices for younger, cooler people.


And raising the minimum wage hurts the young the most. They are the ones least likely to get jobs if minimum wage is raised. You talk about the fast food workers benefiting by getting raises but you ignore those who would be unable to find a job because of the minimum wage. If minimum wage is $10/hr and a kid out of high school can't get a job but is willing to work for $8/hr, how does the minimum wage benefit him?

[parocks]

Another angle the Republicans could use is that this would increase inflation and hurt the elderly and the poor.

Just agree with them, argue about the numbers a little bit, come up with an answer like 8,9,10 over successive years. Just like it always is. Taking the side of 25% against the 75% on an issue that's been around since 1938, there's gotta be something else to talk about. I'd like to see huge paycuts for FedGov workers. Taking our money, against our will, spending on sht we don't want. And paying their minions much bigger $ than minimum wage. Knock all FedGov workers down to minimum wage. Periodic minimum wage hikes are the main thing for hard working poor people. I'm not against them. They should have a thing. That's their thing, I don't think we should be screwing them.

[otherone]

ROFL!
All Barry has to do is FINE workers who make less than $10 per hour! That'll fix things!

[parocks]

Yes of course. That picture sums up the minimum wage fight perfectly.

BS.

The minimum wage was 25 cents in 1938.

The minimum wage has gone up dozens of times.

Please, show the articles about the economic catastrophe that was caused by these periodic hikes.

We have serious sht we're dealing with. FedGov seems to want to take our money and give it to people who don't shop in the same stores as I do. They shop in Washington, DC stores. And quite a while ago, everything new they did stopped being useful. So, they take my money away from me, away from my community, that has workers ready to take my money, which I don't have, because FedGov is giving it to people to spy on me.

Yes, no doubt, if you took away all social safety nets, and the FedGov took away half your money, and the minimum wage was gone, we would learn how little a person would need to keep from starving. I don't want to live there.

If FedGov stopped building drones, and let me keep my money, I could spend it in a local store. Everybody else would have much more money to spend in local stores, and those people sitting on the sidelines would be needed, and the best ones would prove to be so valuable that they'd make more than the minimum wage. No minimum wage laws would be necessary, because the free market economy where people get to keep their money would be working. But it isn't working.

So much is fkd up. The minimum wage and periodic raises in it after a debate, that works pretty well.

[Keith and stuff]

Unemployment is at 25% right now. What could possibly be more useful to solve this problem than to increase the min. wage to $100 an hour? That's right, nothing. Go big or go home. :toady:

[WM_in_MO]

Pandering to the lowest common denominator...

Oh you don't want $15/hr minimum wage?

Y U HATE POOR PEOPLE!?

It's so stupid it's genius, by controlling the schools they have made most people LITERALLY TOO IGNORANT TO ARGUE BACK EFFECTIVELY.

[parocks]

And raising the minimum wage hurts the young the most. They are the ones least likely to get jobs if minimum wage is raised. You talk about the fast food workers benefiting by getting raises but you ignore those who would be unable to find a job because of the minimum wage. If minimum wage is $10/hr and a kid out of high school can't get a job but is willing to work for $8/hr, how does the minimum wage benefit him?

Yes. If there was no minimum wage, everyone could be wiping old peoples asses for a $1 a day. That's the future.

We have a minimum wage now. There are people working at those jobs. There are young people working at those jobs. The minimum wage has been in place since 1938 and it's been raised dozens of times. Yet, still lots of young people in minimum wage jobs.

The total amount of money in young peoples pockets will go up. Everyone gets a 10% raise. 10% more money. But some will be fired or lose hours. But not 10%, much less than that. Just keep doing what we've been doing. Periodic raises keeping pace with inflation.

[enhanced_deficit]

Why, "Minimum age for drone victims" signature strikes was not deemed an appealing issue for Drone King supporters?

"You can keep your current Wage if you like it".

[parocks]

Pandering to the lowest common denominator...

Oh you don't want $15/hr minimum wage?

Y U HATE POOR PEOPLE!?

It's so stupid it's genius, by controlling the schools they have made most people LITERALLY TOO IGNORANT TO ARGUE BACK EFFECTIVELY.

No, it's just that the Minimum Wage has been in place since 1938, and periodically, it goes up to keep pace with inflation. Unless you think that the minimum wage is the one thing that is keeping us from the beautiful free market paradise, this is really not something to fight about.

3/4s of Americans would like to give the minimum wage workers a raise now, even if it might mean a tiny tiny bump in inflation and unemployment.

Focus on things that we hate, that other people hate too. The crazy new stuff like NSA and drones. Not the single thing that the poorest folks have relied upon since 1938.

When "better" people are working for the government, spying, building drones, I'm much much more in favor of people who are not considered "better", people who live near me, people who work for minimum wage, doing sht I want done in the stores that I want to go to. I'd like to give them a raise, and 75% people of Americans do to.

[parocks]

Unemployment is at 25% right now. What could possibly be more useful to solve this problem than to increase the min. wage to $100 an hour? That's right, nothing. Go big or go home. :toady:

But no one is talking about raising the minimum wage to $100. Just the same ol same ol. The problem with the economy is the government takes our money. We don't have it to spend in the stores. If we had more money to spend in stores, the stores would hire more people to hand me my fast food through the window or scan my food.

[MRK]

Raise it high enough to eliminate ALL WELFARE... then lets see how the moocher class feels when they have to spend their own money to live, on top of being pushed into the higher tax brackets and not receiving all the discounts for government stolen money. How will Marxists, Fascists, and Communists in government, survive... how will they then, buy votes with crumbs?

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/11-2/welfare%20cliff.jpg

This is possibly one of the best ideas I've ever heard.

Raise the minimum wage high enough to overshadow welfare recipients.

And I think we should use the bar as 20 hours worked per week, not 40 hours, because let's face it, many of the low-income earners are working less than 40 hours a week (not all of course).

So based on some napkin math, it looks like we'll have to push the minimum wage to $60/hour to make sure the 20-hour-per-week people take home $60,000 pretaxes and earn too much to draw from any of the welfare programs detailed above.

[Keith and stuff]

So based on some napkin math, it looks like we'll have to push the minimum wage to $60/hour to make sure the 20-hour-per-week people take home $60,000 pretaxes and earn too much to draw from any of the welfare programs detailed above.

The only problem is that it makes the upper middle class disappear. I don't have a million in savings so it might not destroy my life. But it would ruin things for lawyers, doctors, politicians and so on.

[Cutlerzzz]

If only I had any idea how to post images on my Ipad I would post a supply curve.

[Rocco]

You've never run a business, have you? McDonalds is an oligopoly BECAUSE of policies like the minimum wage. The average profit margin for a fast food restaurant is 2.4%. With every minimum wage increase the market consolidated to the mega corporations who can afford the increase, and this is why Walmart has supported EVERY SINGLE federal minimum wage increase that has passed. It is a way to use government to push their competitors out of the market, the minimum wage has ELIMINATED small grocery stores, small gas stations, small fast food restaurants and many low profit margin industries which have been completely taken over by chains. There is literally no policy that helps McDonalds or Tops keep their oligopolies more. Raising the minimum wage is economically ignorant.




Apparently no one here understands that the Federal Minimum Wage started in 1938, and it was a quarter an hour. It goes up all the time and it doesn't actually effect the overall economy very much.

The people who benefit from keeping the minimum wage low support the Romney's and not the Paul's. But the Romney supporters are plenty happy to have Ron Paul supporters taking the "screw the poor people who actually work" side of the issue.

We don't live in a free market. McDonald's has a dollar value menu. Prices of the inputs change all the time, yet McDonalds is able to keep the prices the same.

We don't want to be fighting this battle.

Until the Government stops taking so much of our money, we don't live in a free market. So, put away your charts and graphs. McDonalds is an oligopoly, Supermarkets are oligopolies, the Government takes half our money to spy on us, squeezing the nuts of the poorest folks doesn't make us any friends.

[Rocco]

I can prove to you using math that the minimum wage creates unemployment and underemployment:

Company A has a work force that is exclusively minimum wage workers, and has $2,000 set aside for payroll every week with an $8 an hour minimum wage. They can afford 250 hours worth of labor, or 9 workers at 28 hours a week each. The government now raises the minimum wage to $10 an hour. The company now can afford 200 hours of labor with those same $2,000. They now must either cut everyone from 28 hours to 22 hours a week to keep everybody employed, or they must cut back from 9 to 7 workers to maintain everybody's hours. Liberals have this fantasy where the owner takes *just a little bit* out of their profit margin to up the payroll, but that will NEVER happen because most minimum wage labor industries make very small margins.

[Keith and stuff]

You've never run a business, have you? McDonalds is an oligopoly BECAUSE of policies like the minimum wage.

I like most of your comment but McDonald's is in no way anything close to an oligopoly. There are well over 100 restaurants in the county I live in and 2 of them are McDonald's.

[Rocco]

There are no fast food restaurants that are not major chains, at least not anywhere I have ever lived or been.


I like most of your comment but McDonald's is in no way anything close to an oligopoly. There are well over 100 restaurants in the county I live in and 2 of them are McDonald's.

[parocks]

We need to fight this battle. Minimum wage is economics 101. If someone can learn to understand the harmful effects of minimum wage, then they should be able to understand most economic concepts.

Econ 101 describes conditions of free markets. Free markets work great. We don't live in a free market. At all.

1) The Fed Gov takes our money. The lack of my money in my pocket means I can't give it to my neighbor. Free market broken.

2) Fast food restaurants, supermarkets, are oligopolies. Their prices are determined differently. W/ perfect competition, prices = the cost. W/ oligopolies, the prices
= total amount of money. A McChicken is a $1 because McDonalds determined that they'd make the most money if the McChicken was a dollar. Companies who can just make up their prices don't need to respond to labor cost rises if they don't want to. KFC was running a special for at least a month. 10 pieces of chicken, $10. We aren't talking about a situation where there are hundreds of sellers of undifferentiated wheat. We don't live there any more. And 75% know this. And 25% seem to think that arguing over whether the minimum wage should be $7.25 or $9 or $10 is something you should do in public.

Listen, when 75% of the people want to give the poor working folks the periodic raise they have been getting since 1938, it's not time to argue with them. I don't like reading in the newspaper that social conservatives want to give the poor folks their raise, or that tea partiers want to give the poor folks their raise, but libertarians don't want to give the poor folks the raise that they've been getting since 1938.

It make libertarians just look like dicks. Yeah, we get it, there might be a little bit of inflation, or a tiny bit of unemployment. But every single time the hikes took place, since 1938, there hasn't been any problems that can be clearly pointed to.

You really want the libertarians to be known as the people who want to fight to keep the poor people from getting their raises? Liberty? Screw that. $7.25 for the poor people, not $10.

It's almost as if you don't understand that we do have a minimum wage. And that minimum wage has been going up dozens of times. The same amount of Liberty is there when the minimum wage is $7.25 or $10. Just arguing about numbers. The idea behind the minimum wage is that it's supposed to keep pace with inflation.

Social security has an automatic COLA.
Fed Government employees have an automatic COLA.

Minimum wage hikes require a debate and a vote.

[parocks]

I can prove to you using math that the minimum wage creates unemployment and underemployment:

Company A has a work force that is exclusively minimum wage workers, and has $2,000 set aside for payroll every week with an $8 an hour minimum wage. They can afford 250 hours worth of labor, or 9 workers at 28 hours a week each. The government now raises the minimum wage to $10 an hour. The company now can afford 200 hours of labor with those same $2,000. They now must either cut everyone from 28 hours to 22 hours a week to keep everybody employed, or they must cut back from 9 to 7 workers to maintain everybody's hours. Liberals have this fantasy where the owner takes *just a little bit* out of their profit margin to up the payroll, but that will NEVER happen because most minimum wage labor industries make very small margins.

Is anyone arguing that a hike in the minimum wage doesn't create unemployment, underemployment or inflation?

No. We get it.

But 75% of the people believe that the tiny tiny amounts are outweighed by the benefits of the raise.

There are so very many many many things that cause unemployment and inflation.

This particular one has a benefit. That's why 75% of the people support it.

The government taking so much of our money and spending on sht we don't want is the biggest problem.

[torchbearer]

Is anyone arguing that a hike in the minimum wage doesn't create unemployment, underemployment or inflation?

No. We get it.

But 75% of the people believe that the tiny tiny amounts are outweighed by the benefits of the raise.

There are so very many many many things that cause unemployment and inflation.

This particular one has a benefit. That's why 75% of the people support it.

The government taking so much of our money and spending on sht we don't want is the biggest problem.

give the rubes all the coercion they can stand. eventually that gun will be pointed at them too.
higher gross equals more income for uncle same.

[CaptUSA]

It's funny that they get you guys arguing over the efficacy of such programs. The article, itself, told you what this was about. It's about a power play. It has nothing to do with whether changing a wage would do anything. This is about motivating a specialized constituency over a broad one.

Everyone has an interest in ending the minimum wage, but it is a small interest since most of us don't make it anyway. But there is a constituency that has an intense interest in expanding the minimum wage whatever the consequences. When you have that dynamic, it makes it easy to drive certain voters to the polls to get you the power you are really after.

[otherone]

This particular one has a benefit. That's why 75% of the people support it.

The government taking so much of our money and spending on sht we don't want is the biggest problem.

75% of people support a lot of stupid shit.
The biggest problem we have is an authoritarian regime that is supported by the 75% that EXPECTS the federal gov to be involved in every aspect of their lives. 7.25 spends a LOT different in New Jersey than in Tennessee. Let each state decide.

[Keith and stuff]

75% of people support a lot of stupid shit.
The biggest problem we have is an authoritarian regime that is supported by the 75% that EXPECTS the federal gov to be involved in every aspect of their lives. 7.25 spends a LOT different in New Jersey than in Tennessee. Let each state decide.
Yup. I guess 75% of people support auto insurance and adult seat belts being required. Democracy = lack of freedom. People supporting something has zero relation to if it is good or not.

[parocks]

You've never run a business, have you? McDonalds is an oligopoly BECAUSE of policies like the minimum wage. The average profit margin for a fast food restaurant is 2.4%. With every minimum wage increase the market consolidated to the mega corporations who can afford the increase, and this is why Walmart has supported EVERY SINGLE federal minimum wage increase that has passed. It is a way to use government to push their competitors out of the market, the minimum wage has ELIMINATED small grocery stores, small gas stations, small fast food restaurants and many low profit margin industries which have been completely taken over by chains. There is literally no policy that helps McDonalds or Tops keep their oligopolies more. Raising the minimum wage is economically ignorant.

"You've never run a business, have you? McDonalds is an oligopoly BECAUSE of policies like the minimum wage."

The Minimum Wage started before McDonalds did. There were (number) increases in the minimum wage before the first McD opened.
And if you're talking about policies "like" the minimum wage, then you're talking about something much different.

If every business large or small has to do a bunch of bs paperwork for the government, and each business needs one expert in federal paperwork
then a large business has an advantage over a small business.

Fast food oligopolies are competing with fast food oligopolies. Supermarket oligopolies are competiting with supermarket oligopolies. Every one of those companies (with very few exceptions) started their business in a country with minimum wages and minimum wage hikes. Everyone is on a level playing field.

However, there are reasons why Walmart would support minimum wage hikes.

1) Press and public opinion. Walmart, for years, has been singled out by people for being awful to their employees. Walmart doesn't want to come out and say they're against something that would benefit their workers. People would think Walmart was being mean or bad in some way.

2) Temporary economic advantage. Because Walmart has been attacked by people for being bad to their workers, Walmart actually does pay over minimum wage, and probably isn't really bad to their workers, at all. A minimum wage hike would not cause Walmarts wages to go up as much as competitors, providing temporary economic advantage. Soon enough, people will point out that Walmart isn't paying the workers well enough, they'll bitch, and Walmart will raise their wages above minimum. It's a cycle. At KFC, they pay $7.55, at least according to my one person survey. KFC would have to raise their numbers to minimum wage, but the businesses paying minimum wage, would have to raise their wages a higher percentage. So, yeah, there's that. But, again, lots of extra people, we need some, best not to have them starving.

If the government would let people keep their money, there are enough people around who need it and would take it, in economic transactions. But the government takes our money, we can't give it to the people who need it through economic transactions. The market is busted, so you need welfare, you need minimum wages, so that the people who I would be buying stuff from can eat. Because the government took my money that I was going to use to buy stuff from them, I can't give it to them. The guy who runs the supermarket knows that I don't have that extra money, so the cashier stayed home. The FedGov really does take a huge chunk of everyones money.

[parocks]

75% of people support a lot of stupid shit.
The biggest problem we have is an authoritarian regime that is supported by the 75% that EXPECTS the federal gov to be involved in every aspect of their lives. 7.25 spends a LOT different in New Jersey than in Tennessee. Let each state decide.

The law has been around since 1938.

Focus on NSA spying, drones, how spending all that money on the military does not help my local economy one bit, or David Byrne, who I saw a couple months ago with St. Vincent.

[parocks]

give the rubes all the coercion they can stand. eventually that gun will be pointed at them too.
higher gross equals more income for uncle same.

It's just raising the minimum wage for the umpteenth time since 1938. Retail would be against it. Definitely it would cause them to have to do a little bit of thinking, which they really don't want to have to do. Changing numbers around. There's NSA spying. All this crazy sht is happening, completely awful. There was no NSA in 1938.

Just don't argue about it. There's no more liberty or less liberty with a $5 or a $10 minimum wage. There are no principles at stake. When you argue against raising the minimum wage, you're just arguing the economic interests of people who want to pay their workers less. You don't look like you have any values at all, but just taking a side in a labor dispute. Arguing for one number against a different, higher number. Looks terrible to voters who you want to win over. Gives "libertarian" a bad name.

[torchbearer]

It's just raising the minimum wage for the umpteenth time since 1938. Retail would be against it. Definitely it would cause them to have to do a little bit of thinking, which they really don't want to have to do. Changing numbers around. There's NSA spying. All this crazy sht is happening, completely awful. There was no NSA in 1938.

Just don't argue about it. There's no more liberty or less liberty with a $5 or a $10 minimum wage. There are no principles at stake. When you argue against raising the minimum wage, you're just arguing the economic interests of people who want to pay their workers less. You don't look like you have any values at all, but just taking a side in a labor dispute. Arguing for one number against a different, higher number. Looks terrible to voters who you want to win over. Gives "libertarian" a bad name.

work contracts should not be made under the threat of force.
that is the minimum wage.

[gwax23]

Great Parocks is back. The economic illiterate poster who rallies the other economic illiterati of this forum.

To everyone with half a brain, dont waste too much time arguing with him, its futile.

[gwax23]

*Read from the bottom up, I went through the pages quoting his posts. Ones at the bottom earlier, towards the top later....*




But no one is talking about raising the minimum wage to $100. Just the same ol same ol. The problem with the economy is the government takes our money. We don't have it to spend in the stores. If we had more money to spend in stores, the stores would hire more people to hand me my fast food through the window or scan my food.

They want to double it to 15. Which is a big deal, especially since many liberal states will use it as an excuse to raise it to 18-19.


No, it's just that the Minimum Wage has been in place since 1938, and periodically, it goes up to keep pace with inflation. Unless you think that the minimum wage is the one thing that is keeping us from the beautiful free market paradise, this is really not something to fight about.

3/4s of Americans would like to give the minimum wage workers a raise now, even if it might mean a tiny tiny bump in inflation and unemployment.

Focus on things that we hate, that other people hate too. The crazy new stuff like NSA and drones. Not the single thing that the poorest folks have relied upon since 1938.

When "better" people are working for the government, spying, building drones, I'm much much more in favor of people who are not considered "better", people who live near me, people who work for minimum wage, doing sht I want done in the stores that I want to go to. I'd like to give them a raise, and 75% people of Americans do to.

Then 3/4 of American can pay higher prices...which they wont. Theyll say plenty of fluffy feel good shit in polls so idiots like you can rally for minimum wage increases. The masses like you dont understand supply and demand. The founder didnt want us to live in a democracy where the idiotic mob can dictate policy. Too bad we ignored their intentions.

Why do we have to narrow our ideology and sacrifice basic principles of economic freedom so you can continue your fetish with the minimum wage?


Yes. If there was no minimum wage, everyone could be wiping old peoples asses for a $1 a day. That's the future.

We have a minimum wage now. There are people working at those jobs. There are young people working at those jobs. The minimum wage has been in place since 1938 and it's been raised dozens of times. Yet, still lots of young people in minimum wage jobs.

The total amount of money in young peoples pockets will go up. Everyone gets a 10% raise. 10% more money. But some will be fired or lose hours. But not 10%, much less than that. Just keep doing what we've been doing. Periodic raises keeping pace with inflation.

Im going to go out on a limb here and say your a statist who has no idea about economics. I tried toe educate you in the last thread I saw you on (it happened to be about minimum wage....) you refused to learn and now your spewing the same garbage. Go join the Hillary Clinton forums if you love government price fixing so much.

People wont have 10% they will have ZERO. They will lose their job or never get one in the first place. Do you have any idea about the youth unemployment statistics? Look them up not only for the US but for countries with higher minimum wages and see what this dumb law does. Further your ignoring price inflation with your bs "10% more for everyone!!"


BS.

The minimum wage was 25 cents in 1938.

The minimum wage has gone up dozens of times.

Please, show the articles about the economic catastrophe that was caused by these periodic hikes.

We have serious sht we're dealing with. FedGov seems to want to take our money and give it to people who don't shop in the same stores as I do. They shop in Washington, DC stores. And quite a while ago, everything new they did stopped being useful. So, they take my money away from me, away from my community, that has workers ready to take my money, which I don't have, because FedGov is giving it to people to spy on me.

Yes, no doubt, if you took away all social safety nets, and the FedGov took away half your money, and the minimum wage was gone, we would learn how little a person would need to keep from starving. I don't want to live there.

If FedGov stopped building drones, and let me keep my money, I could spend it in a local store. Everybody else would have much more money to spend in local stores, and those people sitting on the sidelines would be needed, and the best ones would prove to be so valuable that they'd make more than the minimum wage. No minimum wage laws would be necessary, because the free market economy where people get to keep their money would be working. But it isn't working.

So much is fkd up. The minimum wage and periodic raises in it after a debate, that works pretty well.

More rambling nonsense. It seems like your trying desperately too focus attention off minimum wage. Whats your deal? You love trying to deflect to other topics but the minimum wage just seems to hit home to you. You cant be a libertarian or any friend of liberty if you support forcing private businesses to pay a certain price for labor. You talk a bit about Obamacare, but you fail to see the difference....Forcing to buy Health Insurance at certain prices...BAD...forced to buy labor at certain prices...GOOD. What world are you living on?

For long periods of time (some cases 10 years plus like from the 80's to early 90's) the minimum wage wasnt raised at all and due to inflation it became meaningless as people like McDonalds began to pay as much as twice to three times the federal minimum. You dont even think about the jobs that WHERE NEVER CREATED because of the minimum wage. You focus solely on existing jobs. More ignorance of economic principles and unintended consequences. (What is seen and what is not seen)


Just agree with them, argue about the numbers a little bit, come up with an answer like 8,9,10 over successive years. Just like it always is. Taking the side of 25% against the 75% on an issue that's been around since 1938, there's gotta be something else to talk about. I'd like to see huge paycuts for FedGov workers. Taking our money, against our will, spending on sht we don't want. And paying their minions much bigger $ than minimum wage. Knock all FedGov workers down to minimum wage. Periodic minimum wage hikes are the main thing for hard working poor people. I'm not against them. They should have a thing. That's their thing, I don't think we should be screwing them.

If you really gave a damn about minimum wage workers you wouldnt be so ignorantly supportive of the most anti poor bill ever invented, the minimum wage. It prevents people from getting a job and on the job training, so theyll continue to be poor, and remain on welfare (which you dont mention because apparently youve summed up all our economic problems to solely government employees. Apparently Taxes, welfare, regulations dont mean a damn right? If we can stop foreign wars everything will be peachy right?) I cant tell if your an idiot or if you genuinely believe surrendering on all basic economic principles should be our political strategy. Pragmatism.....


Libertarians have a problem distinguishing between practical solutions to today's problems and "ideal world" solutions. Ideally everyone gets to keep their money. Because they keep their money, they have it to spend. But we don't live in "ideal world" at all.

Day 1 of Econ 101 in college they tell you that we don't live in a free market. Day 2 they forget that, and pretend that we do.

Standard charts and graphs apply in fantasy land. And yes, no doubt, free markets work best to get the people the stuff they want.

And yes, no doubt, a hike in the minimum wage is bound to be inflationary. But nowhere near what people think it's going to be.
Fight the right battles. There is so much sht, and it's getting worse. The minimum wage people, who actually do stuff that I like, like handing me my food, putting my food on the shelfs of the stores, etc etc. I got no problem with them. And 1 out of 50 might lose their job, or might lose 10% of their hours (probably Obamacare related). But they do get a raise. That's real money to them. We aren't talking about the government taking our money to buy ads to remind us that they take our money to push us around. For me, it's decent poor people who aren't screwing me over getting a little raise. And that's just something that has been true my entire lifetime, and probably everyone here's entire lifetime unless there are 75 year olds on this board. There is inflation. It's not being caused by min wage hikes (primarily).

Get rid of the Fed Gov workers COLA. Fire Gov workers. Let us keep our money. We have extra money. We want to spend it. That's where wage hikes should be coming from - the labor is needed, because there's money being spent. But all our money goes to the NSA apparently. I'm guessing housing prices are still doing up in the DC area. The spies gotta live close to big spy buildings near Washington, DC.

Here's another thing. I'd like to see young people with more money in their pocket. They're cooler than old people. Or should be, they typically are. When young consumers have more money to spend, there are more choices for younger, cooler people.

Look what Obamacare did. "Hey young people, we know you won't be going to a hospital anywhere as often as someone 30 years older than you, but we will change you the same as the old people." Younger folks are simply getting screwed.

I have no idea what in this rambling nonsense your trying to say. You underestimate all statistics regarding hikes in the minimum wage, 1 in 50? 10%??? You have got to be kidding me. You quickly admit its inflationary (without delving into the details of this) but then run off on a tangent with incomprehensible nonsense.

[gwax23]

"You've never run a business, have you? McDonalds is an oligopoly BECAUSE of policies like the minimum wage."

The Minimum Wage started before McDonalds did. There were (number) increases in the minimum wage before the first McD opened.
And if you're talking about policies "like" the minimum wage, then you're talking about something much different.

If every business large or small has to do a bunch of bs paperwork for the government, and each business needs one expert in federal paperwork
then a large business has an advantage over a small business.

Fast food oligopolies are competing with fast food oligopolies. Supermarket oligopolies are competiting with supermarket oligopolies. Every one of those companies (with very few exceptions) started their business in a country with minimum wages and minimum wage hikes. Everyone is on a level playing field.

However, there are reasons why Walmart would support minimum wage hikes.

1) Press and public opinion. Walmart, for years, has been singled out by people for being awful to their employees. Walmart doesn't want to come out and say they're against something that would benefit their workers. People would think Walmart was being mean or bad in some way.

2) Temporary economic advantage. Because Walmart has been attacked by people for being bad to their workers, Walmart actually does pay over minimum wage, and probably isn't really bad to their workers, at all. A minimum wage hike would not cause Walmarts wages to go up as much as competitors, providing temporary economic advantage. Soon enough, people will point out that Walmart isn't paying the workers well enough, they'll bitch, and Walmart will raise their wages above minimum. It's a cycle. At KFC, they pay $7.55, at least according to my one person survey. KFC would have to raise their numbers to minimum wage, but the businesses paying minimum wage, would have to raise their wages a higher percentage. So, yeah, there's that. But, again, lots of extra people, we need some, best not to have them starving.

If the government would let people keep their money, there are enough people around who need it and would take it, in economic transactions. But the government takes our money, we can't give it to the people who need it through economic transactions. The market is busted, so you need welfare, you need minimum wages, so that the people who I would be buying stuff from can eat. Because the government took my money that I was going to use to buy stuff from them, I can't give it to them. The guy who runs the supermarket knows that I don't have that extra money, so the cashier stayed home. The FedGov really does take a huge chunk of everyones money.


Oligopolies competing with oligopolies in the same industry? How thick are you. They wouldnt be oligopolies.... Learn what a oligopoly is.


Is anyone arguing that a hike in the minimum wage doesn't create unemployment, underemployment or inflation?

No. We get it.

But 75% of the people believe that the tiny tiny amounts are outweighed by the benefits of the raise.

There are so very many many many things that cause unemployment and inflation.

This particular one has a benefit. That's why 75% of the people support it.

The government taking so much of our money and spending on sht we don't want is the biggest problem.

YOU ARE. You underplay the effects of minimum wage and claim that you have no problem with it being raised. You claim since we dont live in a true free market that we should actually RAISE the minimum wage.


Econ 101 describes conditions of free markets. Free markets work great. We don't live in a free market. At all.

1) The Fed Gov takes our money. The lack of my money in my pocket means I can't give it to my neighbor. Free market broken.

2) Fast food restaurants, supermarkets, are oligopolies. Their prices are determined differently. W/ perfect competition, prices = the cost. W/ oligopolies, the prices
= total amount of money. A McChicken is a $1 because McDonalds determined that they'd make the most money if the McChicken was a dollar. Companies who can just make up their prices don't need to respond to labor cost rises if they don't want to. KFC was running a special for at least a month. 10 pieces of chicken, $10. We aren't talking about a situation where there are hundreds of sellers of undifferentiated wheat. We don't live there any more. And 75% know this. And 25% seem to think that arguing over whether the minimum wage should be $7.25 or $9 or $10 is something you should do in public.

Listen, when 75% of the people want to give the poor working folks the periodic raise they have been getting since 1938, it's not time to argue with them. I don't like reading in the newspaper that social conservatives want to give the poor folks their raise, or that tea partiers want to give the poor folks their raise, but libertarians don't want to give the poor folks the raise that they've been getting since 1938.

It make libertarians just look like dicks. Yeah, we get it, there might be a little bit of inflation, or a tiny bit of unemployment. But every single time the hikes took place, since 1938, there hasn't been any problems that can be clearly pointed to.

You really want the libertarians to be known as the people who want to fight to keep the poor people from getting their raises? Liberty? Screw that. $7.25 for the poor people, not $10.

It's almost as if you don't understand that we do have a minimum wage. And that minimum wage has been going up dozens of times. The same amount of Liberty is there when the minimum wage is $7.25 or $10. Just arguing about numbers. The idea behind the minimum wage is that it's supposed to keep pace with inflation.

Social security has an automatic COLA.
Fed Government employees have an automatic COLA.

Minimum wage hikes require a debate and a vote.

More rambling nonsense. So since we dont live in a perfect Free Market we shouldnt pass reforms to put us in that direction? By your ridiculous logic we should just become a communist state because we dont live in a pure free market.... Earlier I said you where being foolishly pragmatic in an attempt to win votes. Now its clear you dont favor economic freedom whatsoever.


The law has been around since 1938.

Focus on NSA spying, drones, how spending all that money on the military does not help my local economy one bit, or David Byrne, who I saw a couple months ago with St. Vincent.

Why do you have this passion love affair with the minimum wage. Your desperately trying to deflect to anything you can find. Do you work minimum wage? I worked for less than minimum for years, on the books and technically off the books. The pay was shit but I got value on the job skills that lead me to better and better jobs. With your shit policies in place I would have been priced out of the market and probably never got a job.

[WM_in_MO]

So... It's like 99% of online debates?

[gwax23]

So... It's like 99% of online debates?

Hes different because he masquerades as some sort of libertarian/fan of ron paul (hence his registration here) but hes clearly either

a) a moron

or

b) a socialist in disguise.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Instead of raising the minimum wage, how about eliminating income taxes up to the poverty line of EVERY WORKER in America.


Let's see the scumbag aristocrats justifying taking from the poor (impoverished)

[danda]

I think the Republicans should just play chicken with the dems for shits and giggles.

Oh, you want a $10 minimum wage? We iike $12.

oh, you're good with $12? We've decided to push for $15. and so on.

See who blinks first.

That will confuse the hell out of all those blue collar dem supporters.

And it won't matter anyway, as the fed can always print mo money, and this economy is fucked up beyond all repair anyway.

[GunnyFreedom]

The minimum wage only ever became an issue because they devalued the Dollar in the first place. Create a problem, fix the problem they created by seizing more power, and at the end of the day we end up thanking them for erasing our freedom. How about we instead elect people who refuse to create these problems in the first place that later generations will have to solve by stealing more freedom from our children and grandchildren?

[GunnyFreedom]

This is possibly one of the best ideas I've ever heard.

Raise the minimum wage high enough to overshadow welfare recipients.

And I think we should use the bar as 20 hours worked per week, not 40 hours, because let's face it, many of the low-income earners are working less than 40 hours a week (not all of course).

So based on some napkin math, it looks like we'll have to push the minimum wage to $60/hour to make sure the 20-hour-per-week people take home $60,000 pretaxes and earn too much to draw from any of the welfare programs detailed above.

"Full Time" for the purposes of welfare, is 30hr a week.

[Bastiat's The Law]

There are no fast food restaurants that are not major chains, at least not anywhere I have ever lived or been.
Most of those are mom and pop operations that bought into the franchise. They have razor thin margins.

[Bastiat's The Law]

Pandering to the lowest common denominator...

Oh you don't want $15/hr minimum wage?

Y U HATE POOR PEOPLE!?

It's so stupid it's genius, by controlling the schools they have made most people LITERALLY TOO IGNORANT TO ARGUE BACK EFFECTIVELY.

This is what progressives have wanted. Low-information voters ignorant of history, economics, and the Constitution.

[Bastiat's The Law]

I welcome this debate.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DS0XXFdyfI

[CaptLouAlbano]

4.7% of the adult workforce earns minimum wage (source: http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2013/ted_20130325.htm), with the bulk of those being 18-24 years of age. Those 18-24 year olds, also have some of the lowest voter turnout of any age group. If this is the Dems' strategy for victory in 2014, the GOP has nothing to worry about.

[CaptUSA]

I'm sorry, but I have to return to my original post, here.

It's funny that they get you guys arguing over the efficacy of such programs. The article, itself, told you what this was about. It's about a power play. It has nothing to do with whether changing a wage would do anything. This is about motivating a specialized constituency over a broad one.

Everyone has an interest in ending the minimum wage, but it is a small interest since most of us don't make it anyway. But there is a constituency that has an intense interest in expanding the minimum wage whatever the consequences. When you have that dynamic, it makes it easy to drive certain voters to the polls to get you the power you are really after.

Milton Friedman spoke about how those with a special interest have a concentrated focus while those in the rest of the public do not. Their focus on the opposite side of whatever issue is less intense.

Again, with all due respect, you guys are discussing the wrong issue here. This is not about whether or not raising the minimum wage would work, this is about organizing a special interest to gain power.

It doesn't matter if you win or lose this debate, the mere fact that the issue is debated creates a win for those seeking more power.

[angelatc]

Libertarians have a problem distinguishing between practical solutions to today's problems and "ideal world" solutions. Ideally everyone gets to keep their money. Because they keep their money, they have it to spend. But we don't live in "ideal world" at all.

Day 1 of Econ 101 in college they tell you that we don't live in a free market. Day 2 they forget that, and pretend that we do.

Standard charts and graphs apply in fantasy land. And yes, no doubt, free markets work best to get the people the stuff they want.

And yes, no doubt, a hike in the minimum wage is bound to be inflationary. But nowhere near what people think it's going to be.
Fight the right battles.

Why bother fighting at all? There's no way to ever win using your plan.

[angelatc]

4.7% of the adult workforce earns minimum wage (source: http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2013/ted_20130325.htm), with the bulk of those being 18-24 years of age. Those 18-24 year olds, also have some of the lowest voter turnout of any age group. If this is the Dems' strategy for victory in 2014, the GOP has nothing to worry about.

I disagree. As long as the public has the perception of a benevolent government, they will vote for that benevolency. Health care was the perfect example. Before Obamacare, an overwhelming majority of people were happy with their health care - even people who were not insured. But because the media portrayed it much differently, people voted because they thought they would be helping someone else.

[jkob]

I'm not too worried about this strategy, people might casually support raising minimum wage but most people don't make minimum wage and their votes won't be swayed by it.

[RonPaulFanInGA]

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/money-in-air.jpg

http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/2/0/8/4/1/9/9/bin-44431342961.jpeg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uvp0Jljh6U

[parocks]

Great Parocks is back. The economic illiterate poster who rallies the other economic illiterati of this forum.

To everyone with half a brain, dont waste too much time arguing with him, its futile.

You don't read my posts. I recognize and understand what people are saying.

You aren't fighting for liberty, at all, if you're arguing that the minimum wage should stay where it is instead of going up. Because in both cases, there is a minimum wage. In both cases, liberty is infringed equally. You're just on the side of the employers.

[juleswin]

Instead of raising the minimum wage, how about eliminating income taxes up to the poverty line of EVERY WORKER in America.


Let's see the scumbag aristocrats justifying taking from the poor

Nice, but aren't most people with income below the poverty line already paying no income tax or possibly getting tax subsidies?
It sucks but any politician who opposes raising the minimum wage will be seen as someone who is greedy, hates the poor and lacks empathy.

[parocks]

Hes different because he masquerades as some sort of libertarian/fan of ron paul (hence his registration here) but hes clearly either

a) a moron

or
b) a socialist in disguise.

Yeah, I joined 5 years before you. And was boots on the ground in New Hampshire in January 2008.

[parocks]

Why bother fighting at all? There's no way to ever win using your plan.

What? Fight other things. Fight against NSA spying. Fight against too much military spending. Etc etc etc.

[CaptLouAlbano]

I disagree. As long as the public has the perception of a benevolent government, they will vote for that benevolency. Health care was the perfect example. Before Obamacare, an overwhelming majority of people were happy with their health care - even people who were not insured. But because the media portrayed it much differently, people voted because they thought they would be helping someone else.

I understand your point, but what we are looking at here is 99 swing states and CD's (CPVI between R+5 and D+5). Within those states and CD's the swing factor is only around 3% of the voters who are going to make the difference between a D or R winning the seat. With Obamacare, a weak economy, a poor job market, etc an issue like raising the minimum wage isn't going to be enough of an issue to reach out to those 3% of the voters that are going to decide the election.

[gwax23]

You don't read my posts. I recognize and understand what people are saying.

You aren't fighting for liberty, at all, if you're arguing that the minimum wage should stay where it is instead of going up. Because in both cases, there is a minimum wage. In both cases, liberty is infringed equally. You're just on the side of the employers.

Are you high? I want to eliminate the minimum wage completely. And yes keeping it where it is is better than raising it despite what your crazy logic and bogus numbers tell you. I rather a person be employed at 7.25 than not employed at all.



Yeah, I joined 5 years before you. And was boots on the ground in New Hampshire in January 2008.

Which is even more pathetic since you havent pick up a Basic economic book in that entire time.

[WM_in_MO]

Yeah, I joined 5 years before you. And was boots on the ground in New Hampshire in January 2008.

Now you sound like all those delegates that helped us win the county in 2012, but then disappeared after it was over.

[angelatc]

Is anyone arguing that a hike in the minimum wage doesn't create unemployment, underemployment or inflation?

No. We get it.

But 75% of the people believe that the tiny tiny amounts are outweighed by the benefits of the raise.




And the politicians don't want us opposing things that most people agree with. This is exactly why we're screwed.

[DamianTV]

I'd like to eliminate the "thing" that causes a need for increases in Minimum Wage to begin with: Inflation.

We keep getting presented these figures that Inflation is only at 1% but doesnt include things like the price of gas, utilities, or food. When all things are included, we end up with another figure, that Inflation is around 9%.

So should we Raise Minimum Wage, or eliminate it completely, and still have a need for it? As long as we have insane Inflation, there will exist a need for Minimum Wage. Wheter Minimum Wage is required or not and what the Minimum Wage Rate is set at becomes a mute points because the need exists.

Someone please define "Inflation" the way Ron Paul would explain it.

[angelatc]

What? Fight other things. Fight against NSA spying. Fight against too much military spending. Etc etc etc.


Oh, so you ae going to make a list of what we can and can't oppose? Based on ... what? Most people support the military, you know.

[angelatc]

Hes different because he masquerades as some sort of libertarian/fan of ron paul (hence his registration here) but hes clearly either

a) a moron

or

b) a socialist in disguise.


Now that you mention it, he's always been the guy who shows up just to bitch about what other people are doing.

[GunnyFreedom]

I'm sorry, but I have to return to my original post, here.


Milton Friedman spoke about how those with a special interest have a concentrated focus while those in the rest of the public do not. Their focus on the opposite side of whatever issue is less intense.

Again, with all due respect, you guys are discussing the wrong issue here. This is not about whether or not raising the minimum wage would work, this is about organizing a special interest to gain power.

It doesn't matter if you win or lose this debate, the mere fact that the issue is debated creates a win for those seeking more power.

That's actually true, unless you can re-frame the debate to make the ones launching the argument the bad guys in the first place. Make THEM responsible for the people on minimum wage being unable to survive, and every time they bring it up they will be shooting themselves in the foot.

[Madison320]

BS.


Please, show the articles about the economic catastrophe that was caused by these periodic hikes.



Here ya go:

Black teen unemployment = 43%

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/08/black-teen-unemployment_n_2836816.html

[2young2vote]

Its funny that this was posted. Just today my dad and I were talking about how we weren't going to be able to hire as many people and give the people who are coming back next season as many hours as this past year because of our very high labor cost (32% of our sales goes straight to labor). The reason our labor cost is so high is because we have refused to allow our employees in the store alone, not because we think THEY might steal from us, but because we are worried about their safety, especially after we close at night and they have to walk to their cars. But that is going to change next year. We can't afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars and not make any kind of profit at all, on unneeded labor just to be "safe." We've already decided that we will cut back to one employee in the slow times, and this is BEFORE another increase in the minimum wage. We did something similar the last time it happened. The affect is to reduce employment at our store which decreases efficiency, employee safety, employee moral, employment, and customer satisfaction. But it has to be done and will only get worse as the minimum wage increases. Increased prices are one of the last things we want to do, but government is essentially forcing us to do it.

Most of our employees make over minimum wage, so they wouldn't be factored into that 4.7% figure that was provided by CaptLouAlbano, but a majority of our employees make BETWEEN minimum wage and the amount that it could go up to ($9 or $10), so that 4.7% figure doesn't accurately depict the number of people who would actually be affected by the minimum wage increase. however, because $9 or $10 will be come the new standard for the bottom wages, those who are currently being paid a bit more than minimum wage will then have THEIR wages increased, too, at some point to reflect that they are worth more than those who make minimum wage. The MW actually shifts the entire wage spectrum over and everyone is affected.

Parocks, yes, minimum wage IS one of the biggest factors in determining whether an economy does good or bad, or, I should say, grows quickly or slowly. The only costs that an employer has no control or influence over are those dictated by GOVERNMENT through government granted monopolies, taxes, or minimum wages.

Regardless of how long the MW has been around or the amount of times it has been increased, every time it is increased there are shifts in the the value of the dollar and the value of a job that were not created naturally, but by government. Every time it happens it damages some aspect of the economy and creates artificial demands or surpluses that DO have a terrible impact on the economy. Like you said, we have already been experiencing these shifts for decades, and employers have already been looking for ways to eliminate as many jobs as possible which is why you don't see a huge impact every time it happens - the impact is LONG-TERM, the economy has already been adjusting for MW increases for the last 70 years. The problem is that the negative consequences happen over such a long period of time that the changes are almost invisible. My dads store has been open for 10 years and we've experienced a minimum wage increase since it opened, but we are still making changes to our labor force and store to account for it. It isn't like minimum wage went up and we instantly eliminated 5 jobs, we slowly played with the schedule, changed the hours, and altered several other things to affect our labor cost over the course of several years and we will keep doing it even after the next minimum wage increase.

[angelatc]

You don't read my posts. I recognize and understand what people are saying.

You aren't fighting for liberty, at all, if you're arguing that the minimum wage should stay where it is instead of going up. Because in both cases, there is a minimum wage. In both cases, liberty is infringed equally. You're just on the side of the employers.

Now there's a tell.....Oh those evil employers. They must be our enemy. If they're making money, it obviously means they owe me more, and by golly the government should force them to give it to me.

Idiocy. The minimum wage means nothing when the economy is rolling along nicely. Right now, the Wamart in North Dakota is paying $17.00 an hour to start. Let's just make the federal minimum wage $17 an hour, because it isn't fair that they make more than the people working at that WalMart are making more than the people working at my local Wamart.

[Madison320]

Opposing the minimum wage law is an absolute no brainer for anyone in favor of freedom. But it will be funny to watch republicans squirm over this:

Reporter: "Senator Graham, do you think we should raise the minimum wage?"

Graham: "Obamacare is a disaster."

[angelatc]

That's actually true, unless you can re-frame the debate to make the ones launching the argument the bad guys in the first place. Make THEM responsible for the people on minimum wage being unable to survive, and every time they bring it up they will be shooting themselves in the foot.


That's the thing that the GOP hasn't been able to do since Reagan died. The Democrats have framed every issue in this country for the last 30 years.

[Occam's Banana]

The Democrats have framed every issue in this country for the last 30 years.

Just so. And the Republicans will trample their grandmothers just to make sure they get included in the shot.

Two-party system, my ass ...