N.C. Ruling allows rent-a-cops to make stops that would be illegal for police.

[phill4paul]

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/42/4292.asp


North Carolina Appeals Court Allows HOAs To Arrest For DUI
North Carolina Appeals Court allows armed HOA security guards to conduct traffic stops that would be illegal for police to make.

Rental cops hired by homeowners associations (HOA) can conduct traffic stops that would be unconstitutional if performed by an actual police officer, according to a ruling handed down last week by the North Carolina Court of Appeals. A three-judge panel took up the case of Frederick Lloyd Weaver Jr, who was stopped on April 20, 2012 by an armed security guard employed by Metro Special Police and Security Services. The HOA for the Carleton Place townhomes near the University of North Carolina at Wilmington contracted with Metro for security services.

North Carolina allows armed guards to wear police-like uniforms with badges, carry guns and drive cars with flashing red and white light bars. Qualifying for the security guard position requires four hours of classroom instruction and a day on the range.

Security guard Brett Hunter received no training as to estimating speed or handling drunk drivers, but he was tasked with issuing speeding tickets to people driving through the community. When Hunter saw Weaver's Acura through his rearview mirror, he guessed that the car was traveling at 25 MPH in a 15 MPH zone. He turned on his flashing lights and forced Weaver to pull over.

"I'm Officer Hunter from Metro Public Safety," Hunter said as he asked Weaver for his driver's license.

After noticing slurred speech and other signs of intoxication, Hunter ordered Weaver out of the car to sit on the curb while he called the police. Hunter also wrote an HOA speeding ticket. About ten minutes later, a university police officer arrived, only to realize she lacked jurisdiction. Thirty-five minutes into the traffic stop, a Wilmington Police Detective arrived, confirmed the signs of intoxication and took Weaver into custody for driving under the influence of alcohol (DUI),

At trial, New Hanover County Superior Court Judge W. Allen Cobb Jr found the security guard was acting under the authority of the state and therefore was bound to the same reasonable suspicion standard that applies to police officers conducting a traffic stop.

"His show of apparent lawful authority (flashing lights, uniform, badge, and gun) intimidated defendant and made him feel compelled to wait outside his car for 45 minutes until WPD arrived," Judge Cobb found.

The appellate panel rejected this reasoning, arguing that rental cops are not bound by such restrictions.

"A traffic stop conducted entirely by a nonstate actor is not subject to reasonable suspicion because the Fourth Amendment does not apply," Judge Rick Elmore wrote for the appellate panel.

The judges determined that Hunter was not a state actor because he was not encouraged or recruited to make such arrests by the local police department.

[Neil Desmond]

What if a driver doesn't pull over and continues driving until they're crossed the HOA property boundary? Can they still pursue them outside the property?

[Philhelm]

What if a driver doesn't pull over and continues driving until they're crossed the HOA property boundary? Can they still pursue them outside the property?

Hell, why not? If we have laws in name only, the courts can decide whatever they want.

[WM_in_MO]

Generally no.
What if a driver doesn't pull over and continues driving until they're crossed the HOA property boundary? Can they still pursue them outside the property?

[phill4paul]

What if a driver doesn't pull over and continues driving until they're crossed the HOA property boundary? Can they still pursue them outside the property?

State sanctioned law-enforcement in N.C. use blue and white flashers. I would not stop for red and whites. For all I know it might be an impersonator trying to rape me. ;)

[Anti Federalist]

Really getting over the top now...

Every other asshole out there is running around in some sort of costume, you don't know who to kowtow to or where to step-n-fetch-it.

By your leave, officer...by your leave, officer...by your leave, officer.

[Icymudpuppy]

Private Property. Private Security. Private rules. I see no issue here.

[Cleaner44]

Frederick Lloyd Weaver Jr was apparently to drunk to realize he could have left at any time instead of doing the bidding of Security guard Brett Hunter. Foolish driver didn't have to allow himself to be detained.

[phill4paul]

Private Property. Private Security. Private rules. I see no issue here.

With H.O.A's in my hometown the roadways are still paved by the city ( the homeowners still pay property tax). This, to me, makes it a public thoroughfare and as long as I am on a taxpayer funded road then I do not feel compelled to stop for a rent-a-cop.

[JK/SEA]

Private Property. Private Security. Private rules. I see no issue here.

the streets are owned by the public that surround, and enter into a HOA development....no?

edit: Phil beat me to this....the question remains.

[Anti Federalist]

Private Property. Private Security. Private rules. I see no issue here.

Nope, don't buy that.

By that logic, an HOA rent a cop has the right to summarily execute you for letting your grass grow too high.

[Icymudpuppy]

Most HOA's in my area have privately owned roadways. Many of them are gated, but some are open for public right-of-way, but they are still owned and maintained by the HOA.

This HOA has a rule about speed on their private property. If you come onto my property, I ask you not to park on the grass, and take your shoes off when you come in the house. Fail to do so, and I will rightly ask for repairs to my damaged lawn, or cleaning of my floor. I would accept cash rather than labor from a lazy violator. How is this different?

[Icymudpuppy]

Nope, don't buy that.

By that logic, an HOA rent a cop has the right to summarily execute you for letting your grass grow too high.

You would be the idiot that signed the agreement to keep your lawn trimmed, and the punishment for those violations is usually listed in the HOA agreement. Typically a fine. This is not applied by the security guard anyway. Those types of rules are enforced by the Board.

[phill4paul]

This ruling opens up a whole can of worms. I'm looking at it from various aspects w/ regards to N.C. law and lawful citizen detention ( there is no citizens arrest in N.C.). Whether or not security guards under state licensing become actors from the state and if they have liability coverage as such. etc. As usual as soon as I get my meathooks into a subject I'm interested in then "honey" comes up with all kinds of things for me to do, invites other people over and mentions how rude it would be of me to spend the day on a computer. Oh, and could you run to the store for....... :(
Oh well, guess I'll have to wait until this evening.

[Anti Federalist]

You would be the idiot that signed the agreement to keep your lawn trimmed, and the punishment for those violations is usually listed in the HOA agreement. Typically a fine. This is not applied by the security guard anyway. Those types of rules are enforced by the Board.
Yup, heard all the arguments, and I'd never live in an HOA area.

That said, still won't buy it.

It's bad enough the state has swarms of petty tyrants hut hutting about, doing nothing all day but looking to fuck somebody's life up.

I'll be goddamned if I'm going to say it's OK for GlobalHyperMega Realty Corp. to do the same thing.

[Icymudpuppy]

Yup, heard all the arguments, and I'd never live in an HOA area.

That said, still won't buy it.

It's bad enough the state has swarms of petty tyrants hut hutting about, doing nothing all day but looking to fuck somebody's life up.

I'll be goddamned if I'm going to say it's OK for GlobalHyperMega Realty Corp. to do the same thing.

I also would never live in an HOA, but I totally support private property owners voluntarily banding together and creating rules for their community, and enforcing those rules.

I don't have a problem with those private security guards enforcing those rules either. I do have a problem with public officers enforcing rules that are not voluntary.

[Snew]

ugh, NC :mad:

[CaptUSA]

Yeah, I think I'm with Icymudpuppy, here. Provided that the roads are private property.

If I hire someone to watch my 1/2 mile driveway, I expect him to stop anyone who comes in. I don't see the distinction if a group of homeowners do the same thing.

If, on the other hand, these are public roads...

[devil21]

I think the point of the case has been missed by most of the commenters.

Does a private security guard have legal authority to stop you and issue you a citation without probable cause? This appeals court says yes. It's not whether a security guard can enforce HOA rules. It's whether they can stop you without any legal underpinning to their stop, which gov't police require to initiate stops. I disagree of course because being on private property doesn't mean you turn over your rights to the whims of the property owner.

[AFPVet]

I think the point of the case has been missed by most of the commenters.

Does a private security guard have legal authority to stop you and issue you a citation without probable cause? This appeals court says yes. It's not whether a security guard can enforce HOA rules. It's whether they can stop you without any legal underpinning to their stop, which gov't police require to initiate stops. I disagree of course because being on private property doesn't mean you turn over your rights to the whims of the property owner.

In Indiana, state certified law enforcement officers can make traffic stops based on a good faith belief rather than probable cause. In my state, you could've just kept right on going, but then you risk being banned from the area and given a trespass notice the next time you come by. Of course, you could've taken the ticket, used it as ass paper, and gone on your merry way instead of being detained. Now if you committed a felony or breech of peace, then anyone could detain you under citizen's arrest.

[devil21]

In Indiana, state certified law enforcement officers can make traffic stops based on a good faith belief rather than probable cause. In my state, you could've just kept right on going, but then you risk being banned from the area and given a trespass notice the next time you come by. Of course, you could've taken the ticket, used it as ass paper, and gone on your merry way instead of being detained. Now if you committed a felony or breech of peace, then anyone could detain you under citizen's arrest.

Good faith belief? Jeez, what kind of legal standard is that? A gut feeling? That sounds like even less than reasonable suspicion!

Looking forward, this sort of ruling bothers me because it appears to legitimize "fishing expeditions" by rent-a-cops since the court has waived any requirements for legal justification of a stop in an HOA controlled area. Most rent-a-cops view themselves as being part of the law enforcement team and this is ripe for abuse by rent-a-cops that want to curry favor with the local PDs. We'll bring your jails and court systems fresh cases that you real cops couldn't even approach! Just wait until one of these idiots decides to get ballsy and pull over someone outside of their HOA fiefdom and someone gets hurt....

[Contumacious]

Private Property. Private Security. Private rules. I see no issue here.

I agree.

Provided that it is a gated community or signs indicating that you are in PRIVATE PROPERTY.

.

[asurfaholic]

Round these parts flashing red and whites are a sure sign on a 17 year old volunteer fire fighter, and for them i never pull over and only move over if I can.

I think this ruling is bullcrap. If the non state actor performed a non state vehicle stop, then he shouldn't use state rules to *illegally* detain a man for over 35 minutes. The rent a cop may be allowed to write HOA tickets but using his badge and gun to intimidate someone sounds alot like a impersonating an officer charge.

I won't stop for red a whites though, so this could never happen to me.

[mrsat_98]

Excuse me, but the gentleman was stopped for speeding. Speed limits are conveyed by Federally regulated traffic control devices, speed limits signs. One would have to refer to the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices to begin determining if a rent a cop can enforce the signs. I think a rent a cop really can't unless he is commissioned LEO. One can contact these guys by email and get a one day response concerning MUTCD violations that overrides local authority if it has to do with a traffic control device. I doubt a rent a cop has even seen the probably non existent engineering report that is required every five years. The POA that I was stupid enough to live under is no where near compliant.

http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/team.htm <<<<-----email addresses


Private Property. Private Security. Private rules. I see no issue here.


I think the point of the case has been missed by most of the commenters.

Does a private security guard have legal authority to stop you and issue you a citation without probable cause? This appeals court says yes. It's not whether a security guard can enforce HOA rules. It's whether they can stop you without any legal underpinning to their stop, which gov't police require to initiate stops. I disagree of course because being on private property doesn't mean you turn over your rights to the whims of the property owner.


I agree.

Provided that it is a gated community or signs indicating that you are in PRIVATE PROPERTY.

.

[DamianTV]

When we have a Private Prison Industrial Complex, we have a industry that has an incentive to incarcerate as many people as possible. If we were to completely privatize the Police, would we not be creating an incentive to arrest as many people as possible? A Privatized Police Force would not suffer from the same restrictions that apply to a Governmental Police Force, not that our Govt Cops pay much attention to any of those restrictions anyway. Its a point that could be heavily debated as to whether or not a Privatized Police would be better than a Govt Police Force. Yet, the same root problem remains, Private vs Govt, it is again an Illusion of Choice where we are expected to pick between the Lesser of Two Evils.

Agree / Disagree?

[devil21]

^^^^^^^
In theory, a privatized police force would have more accountability since the officers themselves wouldn't have the qualified immunity nonsense that gov't police forces do. It's that gov't sanctioned immunity that allows them to wiggle out of most of their bad conduct and shift the cost of instances they can't wiggle out of onto the taxpayer. Baseline human nature doesn't care what title is applied (gov't/privatized/etc) though and eventually people's desires to control others arise. The various labels just offer different levels of credibility and sanctioning to that desire.

eta: To discuss in depth we'd have to set some definitions on what a private police force entails and whether they have to abide by the Bill of Rights. Just hiring a bunch of vigilante "police" that have no constitutional or otherwise legal constraints would be a worse scenario than the current system.

[kathy88]

Am I the only one who has a problem with Gomer guessing his rate if speed which is what initiated the stop in the first place?

[CaptUSA]

Am I the only one who has a problem with Gomer guessing his rate if speed which is what initiated the stop in the first place?

If someone was driving up your driveway, would it matter what speed he was going?

Again, this is an assumption that this was private property. I'm not sure that is the case, but if it was, it changes everything.

[kathy88]

If someone was driving up your driveway, would it matter what speed he was going?

Again, this is an assumption that this was private property. I'm not sure that is the case, but if it was, it changes everything.

Are you daft? Read the article. Rent a pig estimated his speed at 25 in a 15 by looking in his REARVIEW MIRROR. Read the article before you go full on retard next time.

[CaptUSA]

Whoa! Easy, Kathy...

I was saying that if it was private property then it doesn't matter why he stopped someone.

[kathy88]

Whoa! Easy, Kathy...

I was saying that if it was private property then it doesn't matter why he stopped someone.
Sorry. PMS.

[JK/SEA]

Comply then grieve.

Getting a 'ticket' from a private security person ?...

my next ticket would immediately be a litter ticket from tossing the original ticket on the ground in front of Gomer.