How Free is the United States right now?

[Christian Liberty]

Based off the question from Freedom University's quiz, with 1 representing total tyranny, and 10 representing total liberty (These definitions are somewhat subjective, define them how you want) how free is the US right now, and why?

Right now my gut feeling is a 4, but I could be convinced to change my answer to a 3 or a 5 pretty easily. I'd be curious what kind of arguments we can get here.

Poll Coming

[AngryCanadian]

Total Tyranny is when your government cuts down on the internet and other media outlets that are fighting for the truth. So for now i am going to say 5.

[eduardo89]

Ask a gulag survivor.

[dinosaur]

Total Tyranny is when your government cuts down on the internet and other media outlets that are fighting for the truth. So for now i am going to say 5.

And I'd give us a 5 for still having trial by jury, the right to remain silent, the right to refuse an unwarrented search...all the legal leftovers of a culture which valued individual rights.

[Christian Liberty]

Ask a gulag survivor.

10 would be the ideal, so I don't see how you could possibly believe that the modern US is the ideal (Then again, considering Sean Hannity avatar, you might be joking). I mean, I get the point here, there's a reason I didn't vote "1". I could just as easily tell you to ask Bradley Manning, though.

[Anti Federalist]

4

More people in prison than any other place on earth, many of whom are innocent.

Total electronic surveillance of everything you do.

Mandatory blood taking on the side of the road.

Hollow and meaningless assertions of "rights".

Fully militarized police.

I could go on...but the most important reason for rating it "4", is how quickly it could go to one, or zero.

Full Nazi Retard...overnight.

All it would take is another "terror" attack.

[Christian Liberty]

4

More people in prison than any other place on earth, many of whom are innocent.

Total electronic surveillance of everything you do.

Mandatory blood taking on the side of the road.

Hollow and meaningless assertions of "rights".

Fully militarized police.

I could go on...but the most important reason for rating it "4", is how quickly it could go to one, or zero.

Full Nazi Retard...overnight.

All it would take is another "terror" attack.

Hmmm... You say "4" but you're almost convincing me I should call it a 3.

Even freezing the growth of tyranny here would be a win at this point, but unfortunately I don't see it happening.

I just hope free enterprise can out-tech the government. I am not confident.

[Grubb556]

I think it depends alot on where you live.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Looks like somebody might have voted 10 as a joke, but you know there are plenty of dipshits out there who would vote 10. The trouble is that we have nothing but an illusion of liberty. We have all these de jure concepts in our constitution, but try to get them to play out in a de facto way. The 4th amendment is meaningless when judges can call anything "administrative." Trial by jury is often at the appeals level only. You need a "permit" to carry concealed. Some cocksucker can take your land because he says you're a slob and they want to build a mall. We all know about weed. The list is endless.

You have the most totally blatant violations carried out in courtrooms all over the country every day. Done by judges who belch legal doubletalk because they have a cushy job.

You don't need the lions beating you down with clubs for total tyranny. The foxes' use of words have the same effect. Don't wait until something happens to you personally before you decide it's only a 1. A lot of people are there already.

[Anti Federalist]

I'm guessing that was eduardo, and I'm guessing he was serious.




Looks like somebody might have voted 10 as a joke, but you know there are plenty of dipshits out there who would vote 10. The trouble is that we have nothing but an illusion of liberty. We have all these de jure concepts in our constitution, but try to get them to play out in a de facto way. The 4th amendment is meaningless when judges can call anything "administrative." Trial by jury is often at the appeals level only. You need a "permit" to carry concealed. Some cocksucker can take your land because he says you're a slob and they want to build a mall. We all know about weed. The list is endless.

You have the most totally blatant violations carried out in courtrooms all over the country every day. Done by judges who belch legal doubletalk because they have a cushy job.

You don't need the lions beating you down with clubs for total tyranny. The foxes' use of words have the same effect. Don't wait until something happens to you personally before you decide it's only a 1. A lot of people are there already.

[Scrapmo]

Im feeling slightly less pessimistic today so I voted a 5. Although I expect this to decline to a 3 or below in my lifetime.

[tangent4ronpaul]

I'm guessing that was eduardo, and I'm guessing he was serious.

It was eduardo. it's an open poll. Log out and find this thread. Then click see results on the poll. It hides it (who voted for what) from you after you vote.

-t

[Anti Federalist]

It was eduardo. it's an open poll. Log out and find this thread. Then click see results on the poll. It hides it (who voted for what) from you after you vote.

-t

LOL, well, there you go.

[Occam's Banana]

It was eduardo. it's an open poll. Log out and find this thread. Then click see results on the poll. It hides it (who voted for what) from you after you vote.

You don't have to log out to see who voted & how.

To do this after you've voted, you can just click on one of the numbers in the "number of votes" column (before the percentages).

[Occam's Banana]

I voted "Total Tyranny" because I regard the answer to such questions as skewing strongly binary.
It's an "either/or" thing: you are either free - or you are not.

The fact that people may be "allowed" to do a relatively wide range of things isn't really the point. Note that the critical word here is "allowed." A slave in the antebellum South might have been "allowed" by his master to do any number of things - but he was still a slave and not at all free.

And note that by my analysis, the fact that some other countries (such as North Korea) have a much more restricted range of things that people are allowed to do is also irrelevant. The fact that our masters haven't (yet) gotten around to narrowing the things we are "allowed" to do (relative to North Korea) does NOT make us "freer" than North Koreans. (Americans are certainly much, much better-off than North Koreans, but "better-off" does NOT mean "freer" - it just means that our masters are "nicer" to us than North Koreans' masters are to them.)

In short: A people who are "allowed" to do this, that and the other thing by some group of elites are NOT a free people.

[Anti Federalist]

Well done.

Have some rep.


I voted "Total Tyranny" because I regard the answer to such questions as skewing strongly binary.
It's an "either/or" thing: you are either free - or you are not.

The fact that people may be "allowed" to do a relatively wide range of things isn't really the point. Note that the critical word here is "allowed." A slave in the antebellum South might have been "allowed" by his master to do any number of things - but he was still a slave and not at all free.

And note that by my analysis, the fact that some other countries (such as North Korea) have a much more restricted range of things that people are allowed to do is also irrelevant. The fact that our masters haven't (yet) gotten around to narrowing the things we are "allowed" to do (relative to North Korea) does NOT make us "freer" than North Koreans. (Americans are certainly much, much better-off than North Koreans, but "better-off" does NOT mean "freer" - it just means that our masters are "nicer" to us than North Koreans' masters are to them.)

In short: A people who are "allowed" to do this, that and the other thing by some group of elites are NOT a free people.

[tangent4ronpaul]

You don't have to log out to see who voted & how.

To do this after you've voted, you can just click on one of the numbers in the "number of votes" column (before the percentages).

Thank You!, It's still a bug...

+rep

-t

[J_White]

Someone with a creative bend can make a map showing a road to tyranny - with various milestones a country might take from freedom to tyranny,
also show other regimes which have been at different levels (Soviets, Nazis, etc) and then mark USA as being somewhere around 4 with a big red "You Are Here".
that might put things in perspective, but maybe not.

[Christian Liberty]

I voted "Total Tyranny" because I regard the answer to such questions as skewing strongly binary.
It's an "either/or" thing: you are either free - or you are not.

The fact that people may be "allowed" to do a relatively wide range of things isn't really the point. Note that the critical word here is "allowed." A slave in the antebellum South might have been "allowed" by his master to do any number of things - but he was still a slave and not at all free.

And note that by my analysis, the fact that some other countries (such as North Korea) have a much more restricted range of things that people are allowed to do is also irrelevant. The fact that our masters haven't (yet) gotten around to narrowing the things we are "allowed" to do (relative to North Korea) does NOT make us "freer" than North Koreans. (Americans are certainly much, much better-off than North Koreans, but "better-off" does NOT mean "freer" - it just means that our masters are "nicer" to us than North Koreans' masters are to them.)

In short: A people who are "allowed" to do this, that and the other thing by some group of elites are NOT a free people.

I get your point here. At the same time, I'd much rather live here than North Korea, and I'd definitely prefer the America of 100 years ago to right now. So I guess you should think of the question more as "Just how far exactly are we from the ideal?'


I'm guessing that was eduardo, and I'm guessing he was serious.

I don't think he is. Then again, you probably know him better than I do.

I'm guessing CaptLou's "7" was serious though, I'm curious why he's so optimistic.

Looks like somebody might have voted 10 as a joke, but you know there are plenty of dipshits out there who would vote 10. The trouble is that we have nothing but an illusion of liberty. We have all these de jure concepts in our constitution, but try to get them to play out in a de facto way. The 4th amendment is meaningless when judges can call anything "administrative." Trial by jury is often at the appeals level only. You need a "permit" to carry concealed. Some cocksucker can take your land because he says you're a slob and they want to build a mall. We all know about weed. The list is endless.

You have the most totally blatant violations carried out in courtrooms all over the country every day. Done by judges who belch legal doubletalk because they have a cushy job.

You don't need the lions beating you down with clubs for total tyranny. The foxes' use of words have the same effect. Don't wait until something happens to you personally before you decide it's only a 1. A lot of people are there already.

I get your point. It sucks. I say things like this regularly. At the same point, if we were really a "total tyranny" in the same respect as Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia (FreedomUniversity actually said Nazi Germany was a 2, but I'm really not sure why that was the case), would we really even be "allowed" to say the things we say on here? Wouldn't we all be in jail already?

[Christian Liberty]

Someone with a creative bend can make a map showing a road to tyranny - with various milestones a country might take from freedom to tyranny,
also show other regimes which have been at different levels (Soviets, Nazis, etc) and then mark USA as being somewhere around 4 with a big red "You Are Here".
that might put things in perspective, but maybe not.

I'm not the person to do it (I'm not good at art) but I think this is a great idea for anyone who would be willing to put the time in.

[Ronin Truth]

Less than yesterday. More than tomorrow. This trend has been going on now for more than a couple of hundred years. Wake the flock up!

[pcosmar]

Hmmm... You say "4" but you're almost convincing me I should call it a 3.


That was my choice.
And counting down,,, :(

[Occam's Banana]

I get your point here. At the same time, I'd much rather live here than North Korea, [...]

So would I. That's precisely why I explicitly noted that we are "much, much better-off than North Koreans" - but that being "better-off" is not the same thing as being "more free."

[jllundqu]

I also voted 4. I have my guns and free speech and a few remnants of what's left of the bill of rights. I also expect that number to steadily (or violently) drop to 3-2-1 in the future. The only reason it hasnt yet is because the sheeple still have the illusions that things are just hunky-dory in Murica. Once the economy drops off, food/water become more scarce/expensive, civil disobedience takes root.... things will change in this country.

[Matthew5]

This might help some gauge levels of freedom in an American context.


He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.


He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.


He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.


He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.


He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.


He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.


He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.


He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.


He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.


He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.


He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.


He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.


He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.


He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.


He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.


He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.


He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.


He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.


In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.



Any of that look familiar?

[Anti Federalist]

This might help some gauge levels of freedom in an American context.


Some dead white guy's rantings.

Any of that look familiar?

Looks like terrorist talk to me, Comrade.

You are reported.

[ctiger2]

I said we're at a 3. We could jump to 2 (martial law & military patrolling streets) and 1 (gun confiscation, prison camps) almost overnight.

[idiom]

New Zealand would only rank an 8 or a 9, and there are not a lot of places with more freedom.

The US would be a 6 at best....

I mean journalist are not being intimidated into self censor ship yet....
Assets are not be stolen outright from people...
Police can't shoot random people and get away with it...
Privacy is still sort of protected...

At least there no draft.

[Christian Liberty]

So would I. That's precisely why I explicitly noted that we are "much, much better-off than North Koreans" - but that being "better-off" is not the same thing as being "more free."

Well, I agree that tis not the same thing. I'd quantify (relative) freedom by the (relative) absence of government. So I'd say we are both (relatively) better off than the North Koreans AND (relatively) more free (Or less unfree) than the North Koreans.


Looks like terrorist talk to me, Comrade.

You are reported.

[Henry Rogue]

I voted "Total Tyranny" because I regard the answer to such questions as skewing strongly binary.
It's an "either/or" thing: you are either free - or you are not.

The fact that people may be "allowed" to do a relatively wide range of things isn't really the point. Note that the critical word here is "allowed." A slave in the antebellum South might have been "allowed" by his master to do any number of things - but he was still a slave and not at all free.

And note that by my analysis, the fact that some other countries (such as North Korea) have a much more restricted range of things that people are allowed to do is also irrelevant. The fact that our masters haven't (yet) gotten around to narrowing the things we are "allowed" to do (relative to North Korea) does NOT make us "freer" than North Koreans. (Americans are certainly much, much better-off than North Koreans, but "better-off" does NOT mean "freer" - it just means that our masters are "nicer" to us than North Koreans' masters are to them.)

In short: A people who are "allowed" to do this, that and the other thing by some group of elites are NOT a free people.
Now I wish I could change my choice.

[Christian Liberty]

Now I wish I could change my choice.

To be fair, 10 is the only one that actually uses the word "liberty" at all. So you could argue, if you wanted, that 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 all represent some type of tyranny, at different degrees. That would be a fair argument.

But the reality is, we'd be less unfree if all of Rand Paul's stated policies were implemented tomorrow, even though we still wouldn't be completely free.

And we'd be more unfree in 1945 Nazi Germany than we are now, which doesn't mean we are in any way free right now.

[Dianne]

I went in with "Total" . Things many of you believe we have we really don't have; i.e., trial by jury, internet, news media, etc. The Judges that control the trial by jury are mostly corrupt with incentive to toss as many in the Wells Fargo owned prisons as possible. We are allowed the news media for brainwashing, and allowed the internet and phones so the government can track everything we are doing.

[Anti Federalist]

Now I wish I could change my choice.


LOL yeah I thought the same thing.

[Philhelm]

And I'd give us a 5 for still having trial by jury (Unless you are drone striked without trial), the right to remain silent (Unless you are waterboarded), the right to refuse an unwarrented search(Unless it's a no-knock raid at the wrong address)...all the legal leftovers of a culture which valued individual rights.

I rated the U.S. as a 3.

[Philhelm]

So would I. That's precisely why I explicitly noted that we are "much, much better-off than North Koreans" - but that being "better-off" is not the same thing as being "more free."

A good point. It's more a rating of how cruel our masters (spit) are.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

If this poll (or sentiment) was guaged in 1930s Nazi Germany, then I wonder what their results would look like.

[Occam's Banana]

To be fair, 10 is the only one that actually uses the word "liberty" at all. So you could argue, if you wanted, that 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 all represent some type of tyranny, at different degrees. That would be a fair argument.

It's more a rating of how cruel our masters (spit) are.

Another way to think of it is this:

Where do we fall on the scale between (1) being the worst-off "field" slaves and (9) being the best-off "house" slaves - with (10) representing the state of not being a slave at all. When it is framed that way, I'm not sure how I would vote, except that it would be less than (9) but not (1) ... yet ...

[Christian Liberty]

If this poll (or sentiment) was guaged in 1930s Nazi Germany, then I wonder what their results would look like.

Heck, if we did this poll in 2013 America, I think the results would look a lot more generous than they do here.

Another way to think of it this:

Where do we fall on the scale between (1) being the worst-off "field" slaves and (9) being the best-off "house" slaves - with (10) representing the state of not being a slave at all. When it is framed that way, I'm not sure how I would vote, except that it would be less than (9) but not (1) ... yet ...

I guess you can look at it that way, but I'm not sure its completely accurate. For instance, I think calling taxation theft is more accurate than calling it slavery (I'm open to being convinced on this point.) I'm more inclined to call arrests for victimless crimes "kidnapping", and the execution of anyone who hasn't committed a serious crime "murder." The only case where I think the term "slave" would be truly accurate is when the government is actually forcing you to do something, whether a draft or "national service" or what have you.

But I get the point. Either you're free, or you're a certain degree of "slave". The question is, how bad is the US right now?

[Contumacious]

Total Tyranny is when your government cuts down on the internet and other media outlets that are fighting for the truth. So for now i am going to say 5.

yep, about 5.

.

[Occam's Banana]

I guess you can look at it that way, but I'm not sure its completely accurate. For instance, I think calling taxation theft is more accurate than calling it slavery (I'm open to being convinced on this point.) I'm more inclined to call arrests for victimless crimes "kidnapping", and the execution of anyone who hasn't committed a serious crime "murder." The only case where I think the term "slave" would be truly accurate is when the government is actually forcing you to do something, whether a draft or "national service" or what have you.

You're being overly technical. The essential point is that a group of elites ("masters") forcibly impose arbitrary rules upon everyone else ("slaves"). Whether "theft" - or "kidnapping" - or "murder" - or (actual, literal) "slavery" - or what-have-you - would be the best word to apply to any particular one of those impositions is a "legalistic" quibble that is beside the point.

[Christian Liberty]

You're being overly technical. The essential point is that a group of elites ("masters") forcibly impose arbitrary rules upon everyone else ("slaves"). Whether "theft" - or "kidnapping" - or "murder" - or (actual, literal) "slavery" - or what-have-you - would be the best word to apply to any particular one of those impositions is a "legalistic" quibble that is beside the point.

OK, fair enough.

AF almost convinced me to go with "3" but I think I'm pretty settled on "4" at this point. I get the binary view, and I could even agree with it, but ultimately I do see some value in figuring out just how far exactly we've fallen. I think making distinctions between the current US, the US of 100 years ago, Nazi Germany, and the anarcho-capitalist ideal is valuable, or at least theoretically interesting.

[DamianTV]

I'll vote 2 because the Mass Murders by Govt have not started quite yet.

[Contumacious]

I'll vote 2 because the Mass Murders by Govt have not started quite yet.

Was the Holocaust at Mount Carmel a mass murder?

.

[JK/SEA]

wait a few more days....right now a 3 for me....but next week it may turn to a 2...

i have the RED DAWN movie on right now.....juices are flowing...

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Heck, if we did this poll in 2013 America, I think the results would look a lot more generous than they do here.


Oh, I agree with you. I'm sure there would be a good number of people outside this forum who would actually vote 10. There would be significant numbers voting 8.

I can't vote for anything that does not go with what's in my head. I have a house. I don't think I own that house because of taxes. If I don't pay those taxes, then poof--it's gone. I live here and it's comfortable enough, but it's still unsettling.

Not sure how to express this, but the freedom is within a person. I always say you own your dignity. No one can tax that. You can sell it. You can give it away. But no one can take it.

We have just sold so much freedom in this country. We are awash in so much junk that our vision is like cataracts. People here get it, but the majority will probably never get it.

Just my observation.

[thoughtomator]

Ask a gulag survivor.

Our gulags are bigger.

[Occam's Banana]

I get the binary view, and I could even agree with it, but ultimately I do see some value in figuring out just how far exactly we've fallen. I think making distinctions between the current US, the US of 100 years ago, Nazi Germany, and the anarcho-capitalist ideal is valuable, or at least theoretically interesting.

I think the question is valuable and interesting (both practically and theoretically), too. I just think casting it in terms of "degrees of freedom" is fundamentally unsound (because of the binary nature of freedom - you either are or you aren't). But like I said a couple of posts ago, if you instead cast it in terms of "degrees of slavery" (or whatever other term you would care to use), the question both makes more sense and cuts a lot closer to the heart of issue - namely, absence of freedom. Is freedom as absent as it was it was in Nazi Germany, or is it as absent as it was in the US 100 years ago, or so on? In this case, I'm not sure how I would vote. It wouldn't be the (1) I voted under the "binary" context, but it would definitely be less than (9) by at least a few "notches."

[Christian Liberty]

Oh, I agree with you. I'm sure there would be a good number of people outside this forum who would actually vote 10. There would be significant numbers voting 8.

I can't vote for anything that does not go with what's in my head. I have a house. I don't think I own that house because of taxes. If I don't pay those taxes, then poof--it's gone. I live here and it's comfortable enough, but it's still unsettling.

Not sure how to express this, but the freedom is within a person. I always say you own your dignity. No one can tax that. You can sell it. You can give it away. But no one can take it.

We have just sold so much freedom in this country. We are awash in so much junk that our vision is like cataracts. People here get it, but the majority will probably never get it.

Just my observation.

I think I could reason a lot of people who would say "8" to at least a 5 or a 6 with rational argumentation, but then, maybe not. I asked my dad this question and he didn't feel like he could put a number on it. However, with the whole Phil Robertson thing, I think he's starting to realize tyranny will come to him eventually. I don't think he's going to put forward the logical effort (not that it should take much, but reality is that it usually does) to become an ancap, but he's moving in our direction.


I still can't go for "1" though because as I said, I prefer here over North Korea, or Nazi Germany, because the government here is not quite as oppressive. I don't doubt some day it will be, however.

[Seraphim]

Voted 2, real answer is 2.5 for me but picked 2 and not 3 bc the pendulum/momentum is swinging towards more tyranny, not less.

[Seraphim]

Ya pretty much my sentiment as well.


I said we're at a 3. We could jump to 2 (martial law & military patrolling streets) and 1 (gun confiscation, prison camps) almost overnight.

[DamianTV]

Was the Holocaust at Mount Carmel a mass murder?

.

We've had numerous events that have ended the lives of groups of people. Only reason Im not claiming a Holocaust yet as those events are sustained against specific groups. Cops shooting Mundanes I supposed could be interpreted either way, and that is sustained and continue to happen. I believe we will be at the End (1) when groups of people are rounded up for their Beliefs, regardless if they act on those beliefs or not and then summarily executed. That would be the Sum of All Fears.

[Zippyjuan]

How does one quantify freedom? There is no absolute freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want however you want to do it. Freedom compared then to what?

[Contumacious]

How does one quantify freedom? There is no absolute freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want however you want to do it. Freedom compared then to what?

Incorrect.

In the US - natural rights - to life, liberty, property and to pursue happiness - are UNalienable.

.

[DamianTV]

How does one quantify freedom? There is no absolute freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want however you want to do it. Freedom compared then to what?

The only Limit to Rights are defined by the Equal Rights of others. When within those Rights, there is Absolute Freedom.

[Keith and stuff]

Not very free outside of a few areas such as rural New Hampshire. But there is a big difference in freedom between rural Oklahoma and New York City, for example.

The people in the US that care about freedom are leaving places like NYC, LA, Chicago, Newark and San Fran by voting with their feet. Many of the people that hate freedom are moving to places like NYC and LA. That's as things should be. People that like liberty are attracted to it and people that hate liberty are attracted to it. There is still hope but places like NYC and Chicago are likely lost forever, and that might be a good thing. We might need evil places to attract the evil people, so liberty folks have a fighting chance at accomplishing something...

[pcosmar]

Was the Holocaust at Mount Carmel a mass murder?

.
Or the OKC Bombing?

[Murray N Rothbard]

We are a 3 at best.

[Contumacious]

Or the OKC Bombing?

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSB-lZY785YAR1hGyKQZ6RZVBdWOnq98VHXkZILlHQL-iDS4A8q

Why I bombed the Murrah building", (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1321244.stm)

he explains that he lost patience after waiting for the government to apologise for Waco. "I reached the decision to go on the offensive - to put a check on government abuse of power, where others had failed in stopping the federal juggernaut running amok," he said.

.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

How does one quantify freedom?

The three major international reports with which I'm familiar quantify freedom, but even those can fall short with quantification. Perhaps it's because freedom is ultimately a value.

My opinion is that Heritage House's Index of Economic Freedom is limited because it focuses on economics.

The Fraser Institute and Germany's Liberales Institut come closer to the mark because they don't advocate "claim freedoms." They also point out that democracy is not synonymous with freedom. Their major shortcoming however, is that safety and security is one quarter of their measure. This measure includes security from one's neighbor. This, in my opinion, has nothing to do with freedom.

Freedom House's Freedom in the World measures democracy, something which really misses the mark for me. Freedom House also explicitly advocates government intervention. Freedom House also claimed that "democracy and freedom are the dominant trends" in the new millennium, but evidence suggests otherwise. Revisiting the Explosive Growth of Federal Crimes by John S. Baker indicates there were 452 new federal crimes added between 2000-2007. This matches the rate at which congress added laws in the 1980s and 1990s. What this means is that we have been adding 500 new crimes per decade.

Mercatus' Freedom in the 50 States does a decent job of measuring freedom domestically, and that document has been discussed on RPF.

[2young2vote]

I voted 5. We are living in the shadow of our former glory, but it is not completely dark yet. I can still go outside without being shot, go anywhere in the entire country without telling anyone, and make any purchases I want, among other things. Of course, governments on all levels are chipping away at our ability to do those things.

[Keith and stuff]

I voted 5. We are living in the shadow of our former glory, but it is not completely dark yet. I can still go outside without being shot, go anywhere in the entire country without telling anyone, and make any purchases I want, among other things. Of course, governments on all levels are chipping away at our ability to do those things.

I think it depends where you live. In extreme rural NH or AK where there are no state income, sales or property taxes, police stations and so on, people still have decent freedom. But if you live in DC/NYC/LA/Chicago, you are completely screwed.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I think a dog understands freedom than most Americans. I rented a crappy house with a privacy fence. My dogs hated it. They would go crazy when I took them to a field on Saturday.

I then bought a house. It has a regular fence. They can see for about a half mile. They can see wildlife, the neighbor's farm animals, etc. It's not total freedom, but they're not as nuts.

Actually, any animal probably understands freedom better than humans. We sit inside with the TV or computer, but all other animals hate to be caged. Even a bug will climb to the top a jar when you open the lid.

[Christian Liberty]

I voted 5. We are living in the shadow of our former glory, but it is not completely dark yet. I can still go outside without being shot, go anywhere in the entire country without telling anyone, and make any purchases I want, among other things. Of course, governments on all levels are chipping away at our ability to do those things.


Seeing the slight optimism in this post combined with AF's post I'm becomming more and more convinced that "4" is the correct number here.

[Henry Rogue]

I think the question is valuable and interesting (both practically and theoretically), too. I just think casting it in terms of "degrees of freedom" is fundamentally unsound (because of the binary nature of freedom - you either are or you aren't). But like I said a couple of posts ago, if you instead cast it in terms of "degrees of slavery" (or whatever other term you would care to use), the question both makes more sense and cuts a lot closer to the heart of issue - namely, absence of freedom. Is freedom as absent as it was it was in Nazi Germany, or is it as absent as it was in the US 100 years ago, or so on? In this case, I'm not sure how I would vote. It wouldn't be the (1) I voted under the "binary" context, but it would definitely be less than (9) by at least a few "notches."This reminds me of a discussion i had with cheapseats in the "Indoctrination Quotes" thread

"Freedom isn't Free"

Never a truer word.

INDOCTRINATION . . . "to imbue with a partisan or ideological point of view."

Indoctrination is Education/Inspiration WITH SPIN.

If Freedom isn't free, then it doesn't exist. Then there are only varying degrees of slavery, which still makes that phrase untrue. However if there is such a thing as Freedom it would require personal responsibility. But I don't think that is what the indoctrinators are implying, I think they are implying that it cost money by force, a sacrifice of time by force and sometimes even a sacrifice of ones own life (that isn't Freedom that is just death). One could be killed in attempting to preserve one's own Freedom, but dying doesn't make s/he Free, just dead. Forcing one to go through tsa check points doesn't make one Freer, maybe safer, but not Freer. Taxing someone doesn't make that person freer, just poorer and less Free for it.
Edit; I would except the phrase "Freedom requires personal responsibility" and leave it at that.

[pcosmar]

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSB-lZY785YAR1hGyKQZ6RZVBdWOnq98VHXkZILlHQL-iDS4A8q

.

He is not the one that blew it up,,and was not working alone..
He was a soldier (a true believer) He was taking orders till the day he died. (if he really did)

He did not set the explosives inside the building.. he just drove the truck full of pyrotechnic show.

[Dianne]

I'm actually shocked and speechless that that the majority voted so low for tyranny.... but then again ... many might be very young; and have no clue how we used to live and run free in the U.S.A. I'm 61, so I did enjoy the benefit of freedom and no cell phone taps, no telephone taps (yes, we did have landlines back then), so smart television that can film everything you do in the room, and webcams filming you, no school fines because you forgot to pack Ritz crackers for your child's nutritious lunch.... some fines if you even pack your child's lunch.. GMO's to kill you, Fluoride in your water to kill you ... Cops shooting your dog, so as not to be inconvenienced.. prison if you share fresh eggs with your next door neighbor ... prison if you share beef with your next door neighbor ... life sentence in prison if you sell crack cocaine ... but shoot up two or three peeps and you plead 10 years.

I'm horrified so many would be "par for the course" ... Not sure what planet some of you are on... don't wish to be rude... but what will it take for you to believe you live in total tyranny?

[Dianne]

I voted 5. We are living in the shadow of our former glory, but it is not completely dark yet. I can still go outside without being shot, go anywhere in the entire country without telling anyone, and make any purchases I want, among other things. Of course, governments on all levels are chipping away at our ability to do those things.

Go on the internet right now and say, tomorrow you will expose Obama as an Extreme Islamic Terrorist positioned here solely to destroy the USA ... and by tomorrow morning you will be shot, or die in a plane crash which is the preferred method of kill.

[Matthew5]

I went with three. They're not quite digging mass graves, burning churches, and ending elections (an empty shell of freedom, but still). Not yet, anyway.

If the reasons I posted from the DOI were enough to revolt, what's different about now?

[Dianne]

I went with three. They're not quite digging mass graves, burning churches, and ending elections (an empty shell of freedom, but still). Not yet, anyway.

If the reasons I posted from the DOI were enough to revolt, what's different about now?

They are, you haven't seen them yet. Even Nicky Haley's S.C. has removed all homeless from South Carolina to FEMA camps. It's the wave of the future... If you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it does not exist. I have never seen an honest politician, doesn't mean one doesn't exist ... Yep... as I recall... Ron Paul was the one. And I am all in for Ron Paul 2016, whether he likes it or not !!!!

[Matthew5]

They are, you haven't seen them yet. Even Nicky Haley's S.C. has removed all homeless from South Carolina to FEMA camps. It's the wave of the future... If you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it does not exist.

Any proof of that? We're no where near Soviet-level mass graves, even if there was some secret program against the homeless (which I highly doubt).

[phill4paul]

Subjective question. For myself...total. Given my youth, which was a fair freedom in my time, to today. SMFH.

[Anti Federalist]

How does one quantify freedom? There is no absolute freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want however you want to do it. Freedom compared then to what?

Freedom from arbitrary, capricious and heavy handed exercise of power over you, your family and your property.

By that standard, we're pretty fucking far from free.

[fr33]

I voted 3. Holy shit I'm 1 point more negative than AF.

[Qdog]

I would say its pretty free...considering all the free anal probes.

[enhanced_deficit]

Thanks to foreign interventionists/neecons/war mongers/MIC profiteers/money baggers/zionists/christian-zionists etc, US Americans now have as much freedom as humanly possible:

http://fedupflyers.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Grope-a-dope-13.png (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=KcbSS0LaU9HrhM&tbnid=VWA6rV39cIdDtM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffedupflyers.org%2F&ei=dFWmUrruFYe1kQfMtYCgAQ&bvm=bv.57752919,d.eW0&psig=AFQjCNE_alBxHlmqyF93OeXkFC1W5j_DXw&ust=1386718952285962)

Freedom Linky (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?435179-Does-majority-of-Americans-support-or-oppose-Freedom-for-Palestinians&p=5336316&viewfull=1#post5336316)

[Brett85]

I think 4 is the correct number, although it would be pretty easy for that number to keep going down.

[Keith and stuff]

Any proof of that? We're no where near Soviet-level mass graves, even if there was some secret program against the homeless (which I highly doubt).

This. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/28/south-carolina-capital-city-forces-its-homeless-out/

But the city, after a lot of bad press, stopped the program of rounding up the homeless and putting them in jail or forcing them to go to containment camps. See this. huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/04/columbia-criminalizing-homelessness_n_3866273.html

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

This. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/28/south-carolina-capital-city-forces-its-homeless-out/

But the city, after a lot of bad press, stopped the program of rounding up the homeless and putting them in jail or or forcing them to go to containment camps. See this. huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/04/columbia-criminalizing-homelessness_n_3866273.html

From the article: "The plan has received support from Columbia’s business leaders who say the city’s homeless problem has been their eroding economic opportunities for decades."




LOL. Must be heirs apparent of Hitler and his same scapegoat approach to all the groups he hated.

[kcchiefs6465]

I would say its pretty free...considering all the free anal probes.
They're not free.

[Matthew5]

This. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/28/south-carolina-capital-city-forces-its-homeless-out/

But the city, after a lot of bad press, stopped the program of rounding up the homeless and putting them in jail or or forcing them to go to containment camps. See this. huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/04/columbia-criminalizing-homelessness_n_3866273.html

Not exactly mass extermination, but alarming nonetheless. Just another drop in the bucket of tyranny.

[Keith and stuff]

Not exactly mass extermination, but alarming nonetheless. Just another drop in the bucket of tyranny.

The city council voted unanimously to do it and the business interests in the city also supported it. But when the bad press piled up, the city council released that Rambo was just a movie, and they shouldn't try to reenact it.

[Occam's Banana]

I would say its pretty free...considering all the free anal probes.

They're not free.

Annnnnnnd thisgoeshere ...

From another thread: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?436051-Woman-sues-feds-for-invasive-search

Federal agents wrongfully strip-searched a New Mexico woman at the El Paso border crossing, then took her to a hospital where she was forced to undergo illegal body cavity probes in an attempt to find drugs, according to a federal lawsuit filed Wednesday. [...]

“After enduring approximately six hours of demeaning and highly invasive searches, (the woman) was released without any charge,” the lawsuit said. However, her attorney said she was charged $5,000 by the hospital. [...]

[MRK]

1.

Every example mentioned here of "At least there's not X" has an example of where X is actually taking place, de facto or otherwise.

This is normal with all governments, however.

The difference between most other governments and the United States is that the United States has the power and willingness to execute its tyranny without any meaningful opposition; most governments do not have this ability to enforce so many laws with such a high success rate and blanket obedience.

Even in the canonical totalitarian regimes, one could more easily have freedom by paying petty bribes or by attempting to escape or resist.

The US is unparalleled in its monolithic and omnipotent police state. There is blind obedience to orders and protocol practiced by the enforcers, and near complete acceptance of this enforcement as legitimate from the mundanes. Those who do not accept are faced with a near certainty that any resistance will be futile and counterproductive to their own interests in the short term.

[phill4paul]

It's less free than it has ever been. More free than what it will become.

[DFF]

How free is the US?

Let's ask the over 2 MILLION people incarcerated in US prisons and jails.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Incarceration_rates_worldwide.gif

[Occam's Banana]

The difference between most other governments and the United States is that the United States has the power and willingness to execute its tyranny without any meaningful opposition; most governments do not have this ability to enforce so many laws with such a high success rate and blanket obedience.

Even in the canonical totalitarian regimes, one could more easily have freedom by paying petty bribes or by attempting to escape or resist.

The US is unparalleled in its monolithic and omnipotent police state. There is blind obedience to orders and protocol practiced by the enforcers, and near complete acceptance of this enforcement as legitimate from the mundanes. Those who do not accept are faced with a near certainty that any resistance will be futile and counterproductive to their own interests in the short term.
Precisely so. Doug Casey is fond of pointing out that most would-be tyrannical governments just don't have the resources, manpower, etc. to be very effective or thoroughgoing tyrannies. Not so with the USA ...

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

The city council voted unanimously to do it and the business interests in the city also supported it.


Typical tactic of shrewd, lazy fucks everywhere.




Even in the canonical totalitarian regimes, one could more easily have freedom by paying petty bribes or by attempting to escape or resist.



My wife was once approached by the po-lice in her home country because she was jaywalking. Well, everybody jaywalks, so sometimes the lazy pigs figure they can cash in. That pig who approached her was really taken aback when my wife rebuked him with a stern, "WHAT DO YOU WANT?! DO YOU WANT MONEY?!" Well, that piece of crap just kind of slithered away.

This is one of those countries that has seen plenty of revolution and strife. The police are afraid of the people, as it should be.

[Right Wing]

We may be the freest slaves in the world.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

We may be the freest slaves in the world.

That what all the employees say at Dollar General and Walmarx.

[Keith and stuff]

How free is the US?

Let's ask the over 2 MILLION people incarcerated in US prisons and jails.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Incarceration_rates_worldwide.gif

In 2012, the US rate was 480, But it varies a lot by state.
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p12ac.pdf
The worst 5
LA 893
MS 717
AL 650
OK 648
TX 601

The best 5
ME 145
MN 184
RI 190
MA 199
NH 211

So you could agree that the Gulf Coast is the least free part of the country. It's also where Ron Paul did the worst, BTW. And that New England is the freest part of the country. It also where Ron Paul did the best, btw. But if we look at actual laws, states like TX show that there are some states with some freedom laws in the Gulf Coast and states like RI show that there are some anti-freedom states in New England. This does seem like an interesting figure to consider.

When you look at it compared to Australia, New England is about double Australia with ME having the lowest rate in NE at 145 and CT having the highest at 333. The worst states like LA, AL, and TX are 2-3 times worse than South Africa. So yeah, the US is horrible in this measure, but there are some bright spots, like New England.

[Tywysog Cymru]

So you could agree that the Gulf Coast is the least free part of the country. It's also where Ron Paul did the worst, BTW. And that New England is the freest part of the country. It also where Ron Paul did the best, btw. But if we look at actual laws, states like TX show that there are some states with some freedom laws in the Gulf Coast and states like RI show that there are some anti-freedom states in New England. This does seem like an interesting figure to consider.


The Northeast is the land of Christie and big government. The Western States are the most free.

[Christian Liberty]

The three major international reports with which I'm familiar quantify freedom, but even those can fall short with quantification. Perhaps it's because freedom is ultimately a value.

My opinion is that Heritage House's Index of Economic Freedom is limited because it focuses on economics.

The Fraser Institute and Germany's Liberales Institut come closer to the mark because they don't advocate "claim freedoms." They also point out that democracy is not synonymous with freedom. Their major shortcoming however, is that safety and security is one quarter of their measure. This measure includes security from one's neighbor. This, in my opinion, has nothing to do with freedom.

Freedom House's Freedom in the World measures democracy, something which really misses the mark for me. Freedom House also explicitly advocates government intervention. Freedom House also claimed that "democracy and freedom are the dominant trends" in the new millennium, but evidence suggests otherwise. Revisiting the Explosive Growth of Federal Crimes by John S. Baker indicates there were 452 new federal crimes added between 2000-2007. This matches the rate at which congress added laws in the 1980s and 1990s. What this means is that we have been adding 500 new crimes per decade.

Mercatus' Freedom in the 50 States does a decent job of measuring freedom domestically, and that document has been discussed on RPF.

I agree that democracy has no direct impact on freedom. It may be that there is more freedom in democratic countries than monarchies. I don't know. But, I'd rather live in a monarchist minarchy than this country in a heartbeat.

[Keith and stuff]

The Northeast is the land of Christie and big government. The Western States are the most free.

I am not sure if you read anything you quoted. If we were just going to go with what sounds the best, NH is the natural choice as the freest state because the state motto is Live Free or Die. But if we are trying to use evidence, it appears that overall, Midwestern states like ND/SD/OK, the Northeastern state of NH and the Southeastern state of TN might be some of the freest.

Though, it depends what you look at. I quoted someone mentioning prison rates. When you look at it like that, ND/SD/NH continue to do well but TN and OK do horrible. So your mileage will vary.

Where is Christie land? We don't know yet but he is currently leading in the Southeast, Midwest and Northeast. Paul is leading in NH, KY, AR, LA, AK, WY and MI.

[DamianTV]

I am not sure if you read anything you quoted. If we were just going to go with what sounds the best, NH is the natural choice as the freest state because the state motto is Live Free or Die. But if we are trying to use evidence, it appears that overall, Midwestern states like ND/SD/OK, the Northeastern state of NH and the Southeastern state of TN might be some of the freest.

Though, it depends what you look at. I quoted someone mentioning prison rates. When you look at it like that, ND/SD/NH continue to do well but TN and OK do horrible. So your mileage will vary.

Where is Christie land? We don't know yet but he is currently leading in the Southeast, Midwest and Northeast. Paul is leading in NH, KY, AR, LA, AK, WY and MI.

When the Titanic sank, one part of the boat went underwater first, but it was soon followed by the rest of the boat. The thing is, the boat as a whole sank, and we are all on that same boat.

[Keith and stuff]

I agree that democracy has no direct impact on freedom. It may be that there is more freedom in democratic countries than monarchies. I don't know. But, I'd rather live in a monarchist minarchy than this country in a heartbeat.

The state with the most local direct democracy tend to be in New England. New England is a mixed bag with NH being very free compared to the rest of the nation, ME and MA being about average and RI and VT being much less free than average. So there doesn't seem to be a pattern or direct link we can take with that example.

On the other hand, the states with the most direct democracy on a state level (CA, OR, WA, ME, MA and other states), well, that's bad news. Referendums and ballot questions are usually used to increase the size of government. Some stuff that decreases the size of government passes, like marijuana reforms or the occasional tax repeal. But the majority of the stuff is about either increasing taxes or increasing bonds, and it usually passes.

Here is ME, as an example.
Since 1995, 54 of 108 (50%) of Maine ballot measures regarded bond issues.
Mainers have approved 52 of 54 for 96.3% of the bond questions on the ballot since 1995. In 2013, they approved 5 of 5 for 100%.
http://ballotpedia.org/Maine_2013_ballot_measures

Or look at CA. CA has both a lot of local and statewide bond/tax questions. Most of them pass. In fact, CA voters voted to increase personal income taxes, sales taxes and corporate income taxes in 2012.

Even in conservative states like TN and WY, voters often vote to increase taxes, when given a chance. For example, in 1 of the most Republican parts of TN, the suburban cities of the Memphis, TN area, voters recently voted to increase sales taxes from 8.25% to 8.75%. http://www.tn.gov/revenue/notices/sales/sales12-10.pdf

Coast to coast, we see that direct democracy, at least the forms anything close to it that we have in the US, on a statewide level does have a direct impact on freedom, and that impact is negative. Then again, 100s of years ago, many of the founding fathers warmed that direct democracy (at least on a nationwide level) is bad. So this isn't a new revelation.

Now if you could gather a bunch of liberty lovers to 1 small town that had a strong level of direct democracy, direct democracy might actually work to increase freedom. But I know of only 1 town in the US where liberty lovers are trying to do that, Grafton, New Hampshire. So even if direct democracy could be useful to increase liberty, there seems to be less than 100 people in the entire nation that are interested enough in the idea to actually move for it.

[Dianne]

Overall, the group is far more optimistic than I am. Although I guess I should feel free, in that I have not signed up for the forced pay $14,000. per year Obamacare yet; the NSA is keeping me safe right now as they monitor what I am typing, and my son can't say anything about Jesus or Christ during the school Christmas play. I've posted many things in these forums about our Iranian President Valerie Jarrett; as the gay man child Barry runs off playing golf... I haven't been killed yet, which I take as a blessing. Are these things I should be thankful for in a republic?

[GunnyFreedom]

4

More people in prison than any other place on earth, many of whom are innocent.

Total electronic surveillance of everything you do.

Mandatory blood taking on the side of the road.

Hollow and meaningless assertions of "rights".

Fully militarized police.

I could go on...but the most important reason for rating it "4", is how quickly it could go to one, or zero.

Full Nazi Retard...overnight.

All it would take is another "terror" attack.

Good heavens. I think we are worse off than AF? :p :D

[DamianTV]

Well, the good news is we can all agree on one thing. We are all headed towards a 1 in the very near future regardless of where we think we stand right now.

[Anti-Neocon]

I actually think the people living within the borders of the USA are somewhat free, as in they could liberate themselves quite easily if they were willing to. But living in a "democracy" where human drones make up the vast majority of the population, we are doomed to keep losing more and more of our freedoms every day. And this is not so much due to the structure of the government, but the mind-numbing culture and complacent attitude of the people.

We had a chance for Ron Paul to be President, and we the sheeple blew it.

[GunnyFreedom]

Overall, the group is far more optimistic than I am. Although I guess I should feel free, in that I have not signed up for the forced pay $14,000. per year Obamacare yet; the NSA is keeping me safe right now as they monitor what I am typing, and my son can't say anything about Jesus or Christ during the school Christmas play. I've posted many things in these forums about our Iranian President Valerie Jarrett; as the gay man child Barry runs off playing golf... I haven't been killed yet, which I take as a blessing. Are these things I should be thankful for in a republic?

Well, we don't have roving death squads marching door to door executing dissidents, yet. We aren't stuffing politically difficult people into concentration camps, yet. We aren't seeing hundreds of thousands of uniformly dressed civilians marching on Washington to elevate the Dear Leader. We are not currently operating gas chambers or ovens for human beings. We are not currently digging and filling mass graves. We have barely started arresting people for holding unpopular opinions.

We are bad allright, and I can see a 2 or a 3....maybe (just maybe) even a 4 on this scale. No way in frell are we a 1 yet. There is still WAY too much horrible stuff our government hasn't done to us...yet...to qualify as a 1 on this scale right now.

Potentiality is not actuality. AntiFed has it right, it could snap over into condition 1 pretty much overnight. Just because the ground is sown doesn't mean we are in condition 1 NOW.

I'm sure as hell not trying to defend the evil that sits astride the Potomac right now, but to call what we have in America right now a '1' on this scale may be a bit naive I think. Things are going to get WAAAAAAYYYYYYY worse than they are right now. At the moment, we aren't even a cruel little breeze compared to the hurricane of sadism that was Nazi Germany, Mao's China, Pol Pot, etc etc.

When you have to pledge loyalty to Dear Leader or lose all access to heating, cooling, electricity, gas, food, water.... when you are looking at life in prison or summary execution for expressing an unpopular (or merely unapproved) opinion, then let's talk about whether we've managed to break '1' yet.

[A Son of Liberty]

Don't use Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia as the standard for total tyranny. There are plenty of ways to impose a total tyranny without lining people up and murdering them, en masse. We should be thankful that - so far - our own particular total state hasn't decided to revoke our breathing privileges... but it is well within their presumed authority already, rest assured.

Modern Authoritarians seem to have learned a thing or two from their predecessors about imposing their will on people. They have seen the mistakes made by the likes of Hitler, Stalin, etc. But they continue to seek to regulate and manage every last detail of every last human within their vision - and their vision is global. One literally cannot take a shite in this country without encountering a dozen codes, regulations, and laws. If the local authority doesn't regulate it, then the county authority does, and if not, then the state authority does, and if not, then the national authority surely and absolutely does!

What separates these Modern Authoritarians from the Stalins and Hitlers of history is that they have done what those dictators could not - they have convinced the vast majority of their subjects that they are free. In that way, we are living in a far more brutal tyranny than any which has come before.

1.

[compromise]

6.

There's a lot worse in the world. The Obama agenda has done a massive amount of damage, but IMO the Tea Party and the liberty movement has prevented this nation slipping to a 4. There is still hope.

[Tywysog Cymru]

I am not sure if you read anything you quoted. If we were just going to go with what sounds the best, NH is the natural choice as the freest state because the state motto is Live Free or Die. But if we are trying to use evidence, it appears that overall, Midwestern states like ND/SD/OK, the Northeastern state of NH and the Southeastern state of TN might be some of the freest.

Though, it depends what you look at. I quoted someone mentioning prison rates. When you look at it like that, ND/SD/NH continue to do well but TN and OK do horrible. So your mileage will vary.

I think that the lower prison rates in the Northeast are due to more wealth and education.


]Where is Christie land? We don't know yet but he is currently leading in the Southeast, Midwest and Northeast. Paul is leading in NH, KY, AR, LA, AK, WY and MI.

Christieland is centered in New Jersey and expands into the nearby states. Eastern Pennsylvania, the high populated parts of New York also seem to be part of it. DC, Maryland, and Northern Virginia probably fit the label as well.

I live in Randland, and more specifically, Massieland. But I think that Rand has a Universal appeal. His appeal in the Northeast seems to be mainly in NH and ME, places where his father did well, those states are traditionally pro-liberty, and are outliers in the region.

[Pericles]

Hmmm... You say "4" but you're almost convincing me I should call it a 3.

Even freezing the growth of tyranny here would be a win at this point, but unfortunately I don't see it happening.

I just hope free enterprise can out-tech the government. I am not confident.

I did give it a 3 based on the trends in place.

[Tywysog Cymru]

Hmmm... You say "4" but you're almost convincing me I should call it a 3.

Even freezing the growth of tyranny here would be a win at this point, but unfortunately I don't see it happening.

I just hope free enterprise can out-tech the government. I am not confident.

I gave America a 4 as well. I would would probably give half of the world a 4. Countries I'd give a "1" to would be North Korea or Saudi Arabia. I'd give the UK and France a 3, Israel and China a 2, and Switzerland a 5.

[Anti Federalist]

Good heavens. I think we are worse off than AF? :p :D

LOL - Well...I suppose "tyranny" is subjective.

A zero on this scale, to me, means an active tyrannical government, effectively and efficiently exterminating whole classes of people on a regular basis.

We're in a nine line bind, no doubt, but not there yet.

But could be, overnight,

[enhanced_deficit]

People be thankful that we live in a country that not only has all sorts of Freedoms at home but is also spreading Freedoms around the world. This is a very rare Freedom situation.

This is just one tiny example of contrast on issue of gay weddings freedoms:
American vs African Religion: Uganda Bill has life imprisonment for certain homosexual acts (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?436218-American-vs-African-Religion-Uganda-Bill-has-life-imprisonment-for-certain-homosexual-acts&)

[DamianTV]

... exchanging one set of problems for another set of different problems isnt a solution, its perpetuation.

[green73]

Ask a gulag survivor.

The question isn't relative, smartguy.

[green73]

I voted "Total Tyranny" because I regard the answer to such questions as skewing strongly binary.
It's an "either/or" thing: you are either free - or you are not.

The fact that people may be "allowed" to do a relatively wide range of things isn't really the point. Note that the critical word here is "allowed." A slave in the antebellum South might have been "allowed" by his master to do any number of things - but he was still a slave and not at all free.

And note that by my analysis, the fact that some other countries (such as North Korea) have a much more restricted range of things that people are allowed to do is also irrelevant. The fact that our masters haven't (yet) gotten around to narrowing the things we are "allowed" to do (relative to North Korea) does NOT make us "freer" than North Koreans. (Americans are certainly much, much better-off than North Koreans, but "better-off" does NOT mean "freer" - it just means that our masters are "nicer" to us than North Koreans' masters are to them.)

In short: A people who are "allowed" to do this, that and the other thing by some group of elites are NOT a free people.

Can I change my vote?

[green73]

Now I wish I could change my choice.

Bwaaa. Me too.

[green73]

LOL yeah I thought the same thing.

..

[green73]

How does one quantify freedom? There is no absolute freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want however you want to do it. Freedom compared then to what?

When are you going to start reading this guy?


We are a 3 at best.

[PierzStyx]

New Zealand would only rank an 8 or a 9, and there are not a lot of places with more freedom.

The US would be a 6 at best....

I mean journalist are not being intimidated into self censor ship yet....
Assets are not be stolen outright from people...
Police can't shoot random people and get away with it...

At least there no draft.

All of these things are happening. Cops kill people all the time and only get punished with a few weeks off at half-pay. The banks have been stealing from people in every way. People don't even own property anymore. (If you pay rent in teh form of a tax then you don't own that thing, you're paying its true owner.) And the media is completely controlled.

[bunklocoempire]

A little bit pregnant? No. History shows...

Total tyranny.

In my opinion "right now" is exactly what the problem is -as long as man is above ground he is naturally thinking it could always be worse -then boom he's dead! lol :)

[LibForestPaul]

I said we're at a 3. We could jump to 2 (martial law & military patrolling streets) and 1 (gun confiscation, prison camps) almost overnight.

Boston, Hurrican Katrina, indeed

[LibForestPaul]

I'm horrified so many would be "par for the course" ... Not sure what planet some of you are on... don't wish to be rude... but what will it take for you to believe you live in total tyranny?

All guns confiscated, China. Bank Holiday and revaluation, Cyprus. Far more militarized police, Russia. True national ID, Estonia. Cronism and corruption, Belarus. It is accelerating, and it is coming, but not quite there yet.

[LibForestPaul]

What separates these Modern Authoritarians from the Stalins and Hitlers of history is that they have done what those dictators could not - they have convinced the vast majority of their subjects that they are free. In that way, we are living in a far more brutal tyranny than any which has come before.

1.

Fair point. It is not brutal, because the elites have not chosen to be brutal. Yet all is in place when they decide to unleash it. Interesting.

[phill4paul]

We live in a Cuntry in which we are guilty of breaking three laws a day whether we are aware of them or not. We live in a Cuntry in which we do not own our property. We lease it on a yearly basis from extortioners.

The poll should have been....

How far into tyranny are we.

[WM_in_MO]

I voted 3. Holy shit I'm 1 point more negative than AF.
voted 3 as well

[libertarianMoney]

I voted "Total Tyranny" because I regard the answer to such questions as skewing strongly binary.
It's an "either/or" thing: you are either free - or you are not.

The fact that people may be "allowed" to do a relatively wide range of things isn't really the point. Note that the critical word here is "allowed." A slave in the antebellum South might have been "allowed" by his master to do any number of things - but he was still a slave and not at all free.

And note that by my analysis, the fact that some other countries (such as North Korea) have a much more restricted range of things that people are allowed to do is also irrelevant. The fact that our masters haven't (yet) gotten around to narrowing the things we are "allowed" to do (relative to North Korea) does NOT make us "freer" than North Koreans. (Americans are certainly much, much better-off than North Koreans, but "better-off" does NOT mean "freer" - it just means that our masters are "nicer" to us than North Koreans' masters are to them.)

In short: A people who are "allowed" to do this, that and the other thing by some group of elites are NOT a free people.

Semantically, I agree but there isn't a country in the world that would get a 2 or higher by that definition. If government's are in place then "we are not free."

In practice, there is a clear preference for two equally "free" options. I'd much rather be a slave to the slave master that doesn't enforce certain rules.

I figure we need to consider the laws, the intended enforcement, and the capability of enforcement (just because a law is in place, it doesn't mean the government is practically able to enforce it.)

[Occam's Banana]

In practice, there is a clear preference for two equally "free" options. I'd much rather be a slave to the slave master that doesn't enforce certain rules.

There are no "degrees" of freedom - either you are free, or you are not.
You can no more be "somewhat" free than you can be "somewhat" pregnant.
There is, however, a spectrum of slavery, with some instances of slavery being "worse" than others.
Which is why in another post I pointed out the distinction between "house" slaves and "field" slaves.
Of the two, I'd rather be a "house" slave. For example, I'd rather live in the United States than in North Korea.
But that doesn't mean America is "more free" than North Korea. It isn't. America just doesn't treat its slaves as poorly (yet).

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Off topic:


Freedom Fanatic, your mailbox is full.

[heavenlyboy34]

There are no "degrees" of freedom - either you are free, or you are not.
You can no more be "somewhat" free than you can be "somewhat" pregnant.
There is, however, a spectrum of slavery, with some instances of slavery being "worse" than others.
Which is why in another post I pointed out the distinction between "house" slaves and "field" slaves.
Of the two, I'd rather be a "house" slave. For example, I'd rather live in the United States than in North Korea.
But that doesn't mean America is "more free" than North Korea. It isn't. America just doesn't treat its slaves as poorly (yet).
This post^^ I am approve. +rep