Light bulb ban to take effect

[Matt Collins]

http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/13/news/economy/light-bulb-ban/index.html

[Warlord]

what happened to free markets?

[FrankRep]

http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/13/news/economy/light-bulb-ban/index.html

You can thank the United Nations and George Bush for that one.


2010 - COP16: United Nations & Big Business Call for Global Light Bulb Ban to Save Climate
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?271115-COP16-United-Nations-amp-Big-Business-Call-for-Global-Light-Bulb-Ban-to-Save-Climate

[Luciconsort]

if I remember correctly this was one of the things Rand was smacking down ppl in a Senate hearing over when he first got elected. I think.

[Matt Collins]

if I remember correctly this was one of the things Rand was smacking down ppl in a Senate hearing over when he first got elected. I think.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELDHaeEsNF0

[oyarde]

Screw the light bulb police , I have a lifetime supply.

[Brian4Liberty]

http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/13/news/economy/light-bulb-ban/index.html

Imagine that. The industry wanted the ban...


"We haven't seen any problems with respect to compliance," said Kyle Pitsor, vice president for government relations at the National Electrical Manufacturers Association, which represents 95% of all light bulb makers in the United States.

The manufacturers association was a big supporter of the new rules,

[pcosmar]

what happened to free markets?

They have been a nice fantasy for 100 years.

Unless you mean the Black Market,,

[DamianTV]

what happened to free markets?

Production is prohibited by those who do Not Produce.

[Luciconsort]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELDHaeEsNF0

yup that's the one. +1 to Collins

[kahless]

That CNN article reads like an advertisement or state propaganda, including some of the comments.

[DamianTV]

That CNN article reads like an advertisement or state propaganda, including some of the comments.

There are loads of comments that come from Shills. People tend to trust the unbiased opinions of other people that leave such comments. Its incentive for them to load up their own stories with those that promote their interests.

[sluggo]

I'm gonna start selling pre-ban incandescent bulbs out of the trunk of my car.

[eduardo89]

I haven't bought an incandescent bulb in about 4 years, but still, banning them is absurd.

[tangent4ronpaul]

I bet a lot of people are going to stock up and sell on E-Bay.

Anyone else get this ad at the bottom of the page?

1000Bulbs.com ®
1000bulbs.com
Official Site of the #1 Bulb Store! Direct to You - Shop Online Today

http://www.1000bulbs.com/category/standard-shape-light-bulbs/?tid=sub

I'm guessing they are stocked deep!

Was also talking to an electrician recently, he said Home Depot, Lowes, Costco and Sams were all heavily stocked and they tended to be large boxes of many bulbs too. Get they are expecting no resupply and high demand.

-t

[SouthBeachPrimal]

What exactly are the rules on this ban? Bulbs in my apartment go out really quick (old place, probably a lot of faulty wiring). Do people like me have to stock up on affordable bulbs this week? Is the ban on the manufacture or the sale? And if it is sale does it apply to importation? Can I buy direct from China online or is this like the Cuban embargo where the government will throw me in prison?

[Texan4Life]

I stocked up on 75 and 100 watters for my outdoor lights and shop drop lights... Guess I need to stock up on a few 40s and 60s now :(

CFL's don't last a month in a shop drop light, plus the are dimmer than 75/100's.

Is mexico banning them? hope not that way you will always be able to at least get it on craigslist/ebay

[tangent4ronpaul]

What exactly are the rules on this ban? Bulbs in my apartment go out really quick (old place, probably a lot of faulty wiring). Do people like me have to stock up on affordable bulbs this week? Is the ban on the manufacture or the sale? And if it is sale does it apply to importation? Can I buy direct from China online or is this like the Cuban embargo where the government will throw me in prison?

According to the OP, 75 and 100 W bulbs were banned in the beginning of 2013, though you can still find them.
This ban is for 40 and 60 W bulbs.

They are bans on manufacturing.

Congress stepped in and banned the Department of Energy from enforcing the law, after they were unable to repeal it.

The last manufacturer of incandescent bulbs packed up and left the country a year or two ago. I think they went to Brazil or Mexico to set up shop.

-t

[idiom]

Still on sale in New Zealand :)

Also, make sure you have something incandescent in any workshop or kitchen. Spinning things under fluro lighting has bad results.

[SouthBeachPrimal]

According to the OP, 75 and 100 W bulbs were banned in the beginning of 2013, though you can still find them.
This ban is for 40 and 60 W bulbs.

They are bans on manufacturing.

Congress stepped in and banned the Department of Energy from enforcing the law, after they were unable to repeal it.

The last manufacturer of incandescent bulbs packed up and left the country a year or two ago. I think they went to Brazil or Mexico to set up shop.

-t

But it must be more than just manufacturing, otherwise Lowe's and Home Depot wouldn't be talking about stock eventually running out. It has to be a ban on sales too, right? And if it is sales, is it just a ban on American retailers selling them (which would be a pain, but manageable) or is it a ban on me being able to order them through Ebay direct from Mexico or China? From a liberty standpoint, I know it sucks either way, but for folks like me who need access to cheap bulbs, the distinction has important real life financial implications.

[tangent4ronpaul]

But it must be more than just manufacturing, otherwise Lowe's and Home Depot wouldn't be talking about stock eventually running out. It has to be a ban on sales too, right? And if it is sales, is it just a ban on American retailers selling them (which would be a pain, but manageable) or is it a ban on me being able to order them through Ebay direct from Mexico or China? From a liberty standpoint, I know it sucks either way, but for folks like me who need access to cheap bulbs, the distinction has important real life financial implications.

The agency responsible for enforcing the ban on sales was forbidden from doing so by Congress. They changed the law, or at least blocked funding in the Agencies budget for that task. Meaning nothing will get done.

There are exceptions like 3 way bulbs 40/60/80 and specialty bulbs. Like AG heating bulbs for winter water bowls or easy bake ovens or specifically made for ceiling fans. One guy in the UK started selling them as "heating" bulbs, completely neglecting to mention that they gave off light in his ads - and sales took off!

I don't think this is the end of incandescent bulbs, I think it's the end of cheap and easily accessed bulbs. So stock up while you can!

-t

[mad cow]

I stocked up on 100w last year,they are all I use.If they last as long as they normally do,I have a ~10 year supply,at least.

However,they are a cheap mass manufactured good that relies on a partial vacuum to function.
Will they be any good in ten years?

[DamianTV]

There are going to be a lot of people that didnt stock up. Then they'll be paying $60 bucks plus for a 10 watt light bulb, as opposed to 60 cents.

[tangent4ronpaul]

I stocked up on 100w last year,they are all I use.If they last as long as they normally do,I have a ~10 year supply,at least.

However,they are a cheap mass manufactured good that relies on a partial vacuum to function.
Will they be any good in ten years?

There is a good thread on that topic here:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/house/1400676-how-long-can-you-store-incandescent.html

The short answer appears to be - no, they don't have a shelf life, unless you are thinking centuries... like a multi-generational space mission to someplace far away.

The greatest risk is breakage. Someone suggested apple crates as the best way to store them.

-t

[eduardo89]

Is mexico banning them? hope not that way you will always be able to at least get it on craigslist/ebay

I don't think Mexico is banning them, but I know all new constructions must be 100% LED lit, at least in Mexico City.

[eduardo89]

There are going to be a lot of people that didnt stock up. Then they'll be paying $60 bucks plus for a 10 watt light bulb, as opposed to 60 cents.

That's absurd, no one will pay more for incandescent if the price goes above that of LED lights, which use only 80% the energy, last 100,000 hours, and give off basically the same light effect as incandescent.

I think people stocking up on incandescent bulbs are just stubborn and trying to make a statement. There is no reason to stay on incandescent bulbs, unless you like to waste money on power.

[DamianTV]

That's absurd, no one will pay more for incandescent if the price goes above that of LED lights, which use only 80% the energy, last 100,000 hours, and give off basically the same light effect as incandescent.

I think people stocking up on incandescent bulbs are just stubborn and trying to make a statement. There is no reason to stay on incandescent bulbs, unless you like to waste money on power.

Yeah, cuz I can afford $60 bucks everytime a 60 cent lightbulb burns out in my house. Sure it will add up and cut down on total power costs, but those savings are offset by the assinine prices of the newer lightbulbs. If they were more affordable, I wouldnt have such an issue with it. Just another indication of extreme corporate greed.

[eduardo89]

Yeah, cuz I can afford $60 bucks everytime a 60 cent lightbulb burns out in my house. Sure it will add up and cut down on total power costs, but those savings are offset by the assinine prices of the newer lightbulbs. If they were more affordable, I wouldnt have such an issue with it. Just another indication of extreme corporate greed.

[mod delete] The high initial price of LEDs has nothing to do with "extreme corporate greed" and everything to do with the technology being relatively new (for consumer applications) and the expense in manufacturing. The price isn't $60 per bulb, btw. Yes, it was around that a few years ago, but it is about 1/10th that price these days.

[DamianTV]

You're an idiot. The high initial price of LEDs has nothing to do with "extreme corporate greed" and everything to do with the technology being relatively new (for consumer applications) and the expense in manufacturing. The price isn't $60 per bulb, btw. Yes, it was around that a few years ago, but it is about 1/10th that price these days.

Negative rep for that? Seriously? I can return that favor just as easily.

[eduardo89]

Negative rep for that? Seriously? I can return that favor just as easily.

Yes, neg rep for the ignorant "corporate greed" comment.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Yes, neg rep for the ignorant "corporate greed" comment.

I'm going to go with corporate greed. It was, after all the light bulb manufacturing trade groups that were pushing for this ban and the new, more expensive bulbs. I am quite sure, they will always cost more than a basic incandescent. They wouldn't have paid money to lobby if there wasn't a payday at the end for them.

-t

[eduardo89]

The price of light bulbs has nothing to do with "corporate greed."

[mad cow]

You're an idiot. The high initial price of LEDs has nothing to do with "extreme corporate greed" and everything to do with the technology being relatively new (for consumer applications) and the expense in manufacturing. The price isn't $60 per bulb, btw. Yes, it was around that a few years ago, but it is about 1/10th that price these days.

All of the 100 watt equivalent LED bulbs I see at Amazon are ~$30 and none of them put out the 1400 lumens of the $0.50 100w incandescents stored in my linen closet and they are floodlight shaped to boot,not suitable for most of my applications.

I live by myself in a 1350 sq/ft house and pay ~$0.11/kWh for electricity and don't average three lights burning for 10 hours/day,or roughly $0.33/day.

The bulbs last much more than a year on average,the one in my laundry room is at least 15 years old.

And most importantly,I don't like authoritarian assholes trying to save the planet dictating to me what type of lightbulb (for pity's sake) I am allowed to purchase and use with my own hard earned money in my own freaking house!

[DamianTV]

The price of light bulbs has nothing to do with "corporate greed."

Ha ha ha ha ha! And Corporations are never greedy at all, or overprice anything. Sure they have R&D costs, but we're talking LEDs, a tech thats been around for several years before the ban on incandescents was proposed. We're not talking about Super Computers, Space Flight to Mars and beyond or DNA Mapping. It is as BS as the US spending millions to invent a pen that can write in zero gravity when the Russians just used a pencil.

Material costs are also a factor, and I cant imagine that the material costs or R&D of a lightbulb costing more than a Microwave oven or DVD player, both of which use both lightbulbs and LEDs respectively. So I guess the price of Microwaves is also going to skyrocket to also afford their LED Lightbulbs. As well as ANY product that uses any sort of LED period.

[Christian Liberty]

Yes, neg rep for the ignorant "corporate greed" comment.

If you get in bed with government, you should expect to catch the disease it spreads

(Ron Paul)

[Henry Rogue]

I would be willing to part with my stockpile of bulbs for silver. Doubt I'll get any takers though. I need to take inventory, not sure what I have.

[donnay]

Yeah, cuz I can afford $60 bucks everytime a 60 cent lightbulb burns out in my house. Sure it will add up and cut down on total power costs, but those savings are offset by the assinine prices of the newer lightbulbs. If they were more affordable, I wouldnt have such an issue with it. Just another indication of extreme corporate greed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfzQzGNYaiU

[Ender]

That's absurd, no one will pay more for incandescent if the price goes above that of LED lights, which use only 80% the energy, last 100,000 hours, and give off basically the same light effect as incandescent.

I think people stocking up on incandescent bulbs are just stubborn and trying to make a statement. There is no reason to stay on incandescent bulbs, unless you like to waste money on power.

For me it is health issues.


Do 'environmentally friendly' LED lights cause BLINDNESS?
Spanish research has shown that blue LED light can irreparably damage the cells in the eye's retina
This is not the first time energy-saving bulbs have been criticised - fluorescent bulbs emit dangerous UV light


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2324325/Do-environmentally-friendly-LED-lights-cause-

[DamianTV]

For me it is health issues.


Do 'environmentally friendly' LED lights cause BLINDNESS?
Spanish research has shown that blue LED light can irreparably damage the cells in the eye's retina
This is not the first time energy-saving bulbs have been criticised - fluorescent bulbs emit dangerous UV light


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2324325/Do-environmentally-friendly-LED-lights-cause-

Theres more to this in regards to health than just the type of light. One of the types of new lightbulbs thats been promoted has been fluorescents that have Mercury in them. Not the superbright LED lightbulbs. Breaking one of those fluorescents would be a total violation of EPA regulations due to the mercury contamination. Of course, there are probably those out there that believe Mercury is totally safe for human consumption in mass quantities.

/awaits next negative rep

[donnay]

Theres more to this in regards to health than just the type of light. One of the types of new lightbulbs thats been promoted has been fluorescents that have Mercury in them. Not the superbright LED lightbulbs. Breaking one of those fluorescents would be a total violation of EPA regulations due to the mercury contamination. Of course, there are probably those out there that believe Mercury is totally safe for human consumption in mass quantities.

/awaits next negative rep

I agree. One of the other warnings is, if you break one of those lovely CFL lights never vacuum them up or your will blow the mercury around. Isn't it great that we need Hazmat team to come to our house if we break a bulb. :rolleyes:

Also CFL's emit a lot of EMF's. That in of itself can be detrimental to your health.

[eduardo89]

For me it is health issues.


Do 'environmentally friendly' LED lights cause BLINDNESS?
Spanish research has shown that blue LED light can irreparably damage the cells in the eye's retina
This is not the first time energy-saving bulbs have been criticised - fluorescent bulbs emit dangerous UV light


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2324325/Do-environmentally-friendly-LED-lights-cause-

LED's can be dimmed, the higher end models have options which can change the light to 16 million different colours, and you can get filters to address that alleged health problem.

[eduardo89]

I agree. One of the other warnings is, if you break one of those lovely CFL lights never vacuum them up or your will blow the mercury around. Isn't it great that we need Hazmat team to come to our house if we break a bulb. :rolleyes:

Also CFL's emit a lot of EMF's. That in of itself can be detrimental to your health.

CFL's suck. They burn out quite quickly if you flip them on/off very often, take time to get up to full brightness, and generally have a very bad light colour.

[DamianTV]

LED's can be dimmed, the higher end models have options which can change the light to 16 million different colours, and you can get filters to address that alleged health problem.

Would you like Fries with that?

This is very similar to asking for a Woodshed and only being allowed to purchase a Factory. Its more than we need, and a means to jack up prices. Sure, not every bulb will utilize these features, but it is how the prices get jacked up.

[oyarde]

I will not pay more than 66.88 cents for a light bulb .

[Anti Federalist]

You're an idiot. The high initial price of LEDs has nothing to do with "extreme corporate greed" and everything to do with the technology being relatively new (for consumer applications) and the expense in manufacturing. The price isn't $60 per bulb, btw. Yes, it was around that a few years ago, but it is about 1/10th that price these days.

It sure as shit does have something to do with "corporate greed".

Who the fuck do you think was pushing for this ban?

The makers of non incandescent bulbs.

What better way to put your competitors out of business, than by force of law.

[eduardo89]

Would you like Fries with that?

This is very similar to asking for a Woodshed and only being allowed to purchase a Factory. Its more than we need, and a means to jack up prices. Sure, not every bulb will utilize these features, but it is how the prices get jacked up.

It's all still cheaper in the medium and long-run to incandescent bulbs....In the span of using one LED bulb, you'll purchase 50 incandescent bulbs.

$7.50-20 for an average LED -> $25 for incandescent bulbs (assuming they cost $.50 each). That doesn't even include the energy savings.

Assuming the LED lasts you 50,000 hours and uses 9-watts and you pay $.12 per kWh (not taking into account inflation), the total energy cost will be: $54 + the cost of the bulb (let's say it's $20, even though you can get much cheaper): $74

A typical incandescent will last you about 1000 hours, uses 60W, and assuming you pay $.12 per kWh (not taking into account inflation), the total energy cost will be: $360 + the cost of 50 bulbs = $385

[AngryCanadian]

This ban also takes effects in Canada as well and alot of people i know are pissed at it. Those CFLs so fucking easy and whats worse?
Did you read the warning labels on the CFLs lightbulbs? i have to say i had a good laugh lol.

[Anti Federalist]

LED's can be dimmed, the higher end models have options which can change the light to 16 million different colours, and you can get filters to address that alleged health problem.

Or I could just buy an incandescent bulb for a buck.

[Anti Federalist]

...

I had forgotten the poem thread.

I owe ya 17 reps.


At times, in the fora, my responses seem thin,
One tires of similar arguments again and again.

It's with pleasure I approach a thread such as this,
That requires more than the "virtual" equivalent of fist.

That makes one ponder of life's turns and wonders,
That requires an input to render synapse asunder.

It is to you, good sir, I say with a grin,
I heartily declare this thread to be WIN.

[eduardo89]

Or I could just buy an incandescent bulb for a buck.

And spend over $300 more in bulb and energy costs than if you had gone with an LED.

[DamianTV]

Or I could just buy an incandescent bulb for a buck.

Fails to support the Status Quo, comrade. Reprimanded, but not reported. Thou shall alter your thinking or it will be altered for you! :p

[Anti Federalist]

And spend over $300 more in bulb and energy costs than if you had gone with an LED.

Maybe.

Maybe not.

You paying my light bill?

Then what's it you?

[eduardo89]

Maybe.

Maybe not.

You paying my light bill?

Then what's it you?

Just pointing out that your short-term thinking actually costs you more (much much more, in fact) in the long-run.

As I said in my first post in this thread, I'm against banning incandescent bulbs. I just think people who are stocking up on them are idiots, especially the ones who think they'll be saving money by using $1 light bulbs which use 6-7 times more energy and last 1/5th the time of a $10 LED. They end up paying about $300 more going with an incandescent than they would if they went with one LED. But this is just typical of short-sighted ignorant American consumers.

[Ender]

Theres more to this in regards to health than just the type of light. One of the types of new lightbulbs thats been promoted has been fluorescents that have Mercury in them. Not the superbright LED lightbulbs. Breaking one of those fluorescents would be a total violation of EPA regulations due to the mercury contamination. Of course, there are probably those out there that believe Mercury is totally safe for human consumption in mass quantities.

/awaits next negative rep


Agreed- was just the first site I found before I had to report elsewhere. ;)

[Anti Federalist]

Just pointing out that your short-term thinking actually costs you more (much much more, in fact) in the long-run.

As I said in my first post in this thread, I'm against banning incandescent bulbs. I just think people who are stocking up on them are idiots, especially the ones who think they'll be saving money by using $1 light bulbs which use 6-7 times more energy and last 1/5th the time of a $10 LED. They end up paying about $300 more going with an incandescent than they would if they went with one LED. But this is just typical of short-sighted ignorant American consumers.

And what if I told you that line voltage in the US frequently is above 120 volts, resulting very premature "burn out" of so called "long life" LEDs and CFLs?

[eduardo89]

And what if I told you that line voltage in the US frequently is above 120 volts, resulting very premature "burn out" of so called "long life" LEDs and CFLs?

LEDs are current-sensitive, not voltage sensitive. Also, designers consider transient peak currents when implementing LED driver circuits.

[mad cow]

Just pointing out that your short-term thinking actually costs you more (much much more, in fact) in the long-run.

As I said in my first post in this thread, I'm against banning incandescent bulbs. I just think people who are stocking up on them are idiots, especially the ones who think they'll be saving money by using $1 light bulbs which use 6-7 times more energy and last 1/5th the time of a $10 LED. They end up paying about $300 more going with an incandescent than they would if they went with one LED. But this is just typical of short-sighted ignorant American consumers.

Where are you buying these $10 100 watt equivalent LED's?Gotta link?And I don't want ones that are shaped like a floodlight,shooting all the light from my bedside lamp up on the ceiling where I don't want it and can't use it.

I generally use this lamp for reading one or two hours a night.I suppose if I had a LED bulb in it,I could leave it in my will rather than spending $0.50 every 4 or five years to replace it and one or two pennies a night to use it.That could add up,you know.

[eduardo89]

Where are you buying these $10 100 watt equivalent LED's?

60-watt equivalent, not 100-watt.

Here you can get 20 60-watt equivalents for $58 with free shipping:
http://www.dhgate.com/product/20pcs-dimmable-mr16-9w-3x3w-cree-high-power/123947335.html#s1-4-1|892799796

[Brian4Liberty]

It sure as shit does have something to do with "corporate greed".

Who the fuck do you think was pushing for this ban?

The makers of non incandescent bulbs.

What better way to put your competitors out of business, than by force of law.

It's sad that so many people can not grasp the truth and weight of this basic fact.

Profit margins and cost of entry come into play.

[Brian4Liberty]

My bleeding heart Democrat friends have all gone LED. This after they all went CFL several years ago, but now acknowledge that was a mistake. The road to hell, paved with the good intentions of ignorant fools.

[eduardo89]

My bleeding heart Democrat friends have all gone LED. This after they all went CFL several years ago, but now acknowledge that was a mistake. The road to hell, paved with the good intentions of ignorant fools.

I'm anything but a bleeding heart liberal, I'm definitely one of the most 'conservative' members on this forum and I've gone 100% LED.

[mad cow]

60-watt equivalent, not 100-watt.

Here you can get 20 60-watt equivalents for $58 with free shipping:
http://www.dhgate.com/product/20pcs-dimmable-mr16-9w-3x3w-cree-high-power/123947335.html#s1-4-1|892799796

First of all,they don't have a base like 99.999% of the light sockets in the USA.I suppose I could buy a new bedside lamp and leave that in my will too but there go all my 'savings'.

Next,they are spotlights,again with all the light on the ceiling.

Thirdly,not exactly rave reviews:

By: t1mot1 10 26, 2012
this company say his light are 9w and send you 3w don't buy it be careful
Was the review helpful to you? (0) (0) | Report this review
By: jon.hornstein 10 19, 2012
This like all the other CREE 9W LED MR16 downlights that I've bought from anyone are advertised as 9W because they contain 3x3W LED's from CREE but are only driven with 4.5W or power. So don't be upset that they're dimmer than other 6W bulbs. This is the same with all similarly advertised CREE 9W LED lights. But hey they're at a reasonable price so I didn't care, but I was surprised at the light output until I measured the power consumption.

[Brian4Liberty]

I'm anything but a bleeding heart liberal, I'm definitely one of the most 'conservative' members on this forum and I've gone 100% LED.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-LED. But the lemmings don't make informed decisions, they just follow the ass of the lemming in front of them.

[eduardo89]

First of all,they don't have a base like 99.999% of the light sockets in the USA.I suppose I could buy a new bedside lamp and leave that in my will too but there go all my 'savings'.

MR16 sockets are common, perhaps not in old houses, but in new builds they are. Just look at how products Home Depot offers:
http://www.homedepot.com/s/mr16?NCNI-5

Anyway, LEDs exist for all different fixtures.


Next,they are spotlights,again with all the light on the ceiling.

Light on the ceiling? I think you mean with the bulbs on the ceiling shining light down (like a spotlight).


Thirdly,not exactly rave reviews:

I was just giving an example of how cheap LEDs can actually be. I spent 30 seconds looking that up. If you go on the rest of the site there are hundreds in the $5-10 range.

If you want to go with a brand name here's an example from Philips (I wouldn't buy brand name, I'd rather buy straight from the factory in China...they're all made in China) for just under $10.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-60W-Equivalent-Bright-White-3000K-A19-LED-Light-Bulb-429381/204460611?N=bm79Z12kx%3FNCNI-5#

[eduardo89]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-LED. But the lemmings don't make informed decisions, they just follow the ass of the lemming in front of them.

Oh I agree. You should research before you make such a huge investment. CFL's don't offer the same ROI that LED's do and in many cases are inferior to incandescent bulbs (especially if it's a light you're going to be switching on and off very frequently, the CFL won't even last as long as an incandescent in that case).

I would say the people stocking up on incandescents are the in the same boat, they're just as misinformed and it's an emotional reaction.

[oyarde]

Oh I agree. You should research before you make such a huge investment. CFL's don't offer the same ROI that LED's do and in many cases are inferior to incandescent bulbs (especially if it's a light you're going to be switching on and off very frequently, the CFL won't even last as long as an incandescent in that case).

I would say the people stocking up on incandescents are the in the same boat, they're just as misinformed and it's an emotional reaction.I got lots of lamp oil and firewood whippersnapper, :) whale oil is a renewable resource , very green , lol

[kahless]

Oh I agree. You should research before you make such a huge investment. CFL's don't offer the same ROI that LED's do and in many cases are inferior to incandescent bulbs (especially if it's a light you're going to be switching on and off very frequently, the CFL won't even last as long as an incandescent in that case).

I would say the people stocking up on incandescents are the in the same boat, they're just as misinformed and it's an emotional reaction.

I do not want to pay $5-$10 for a bulb I hardly ever turn on. I can visually see the difference with LED lighting and I do not like it. My opinion is no different from others stocking up, hardly misinformed or emotional.

It is none of governments damn business what lighting I use or can purchase. This is infuriating.

[Anti Federalist]

LEDs are current-sensitive, not voltage sensitive. Also, designers consider transient peak currents when implementing LED driver circuits.

Uh huh, and they burn out way before the advertised life span.

Not to mention the driver circuits get almost as hot as an incandescent.

[MRK]

That's absurd, no one will pay more for incandescent if the price goes above that of LED lights, which use only 80% the energy, last 100,000 hours, and give off basically the same light effect as incandescent.

I think people stocking up on incandescent bulbs are just stubborn and trying to make a statement. There is no reason to stay on incandescent bulbs, unless you like to waste money on power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamps_and_health

[kahless]

LED Lights May Damage Eyes, Researcher Says
http://www.livescience.com/31949-led-lights-eye-damage.html


Energy-saving LED technology has been in the limelight as the best way to reduce the electricity demands of residential and commercial lighting.

But how safe are LED lights? A vision researcher from Complutense University in Madrid reports that exposure to LED lights can cause irreparable damage to the retinas of the human eye, UPI reports.

The light from LEDs, or light-emitting diodes, comes primarily from the short-wave, high-energy blue and violet end of the visible light spectrum, said Dr. Celia Sánchez-Ramos.
....
Her comments are based in part on a 2012 study she co-authored, published in the journal Photochemistry and Photobiology. That study found that LED radiation caused significant damage to human retinal pigment epithelial cells in vitro.

This isn't the first time energy-saving lights have come under scrutiny for safety reasons. Compact fluorescent light bulbs, or CFLs, have been criticized for the mercury they contain and for the high levels of ultraviolet (UV) radiation they can emit.


.....

[MRK]

I'm anything but a bleeding heart liberal, I'm definitely one of the most 'conservative' members on this forum and I've gone 100% LED.

So,

LEDs = logical
Electric vehicles = homosexual (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?430299-Chris-Matthews-praises-Rand-Paul-for-driving-a-Prius#post_message_5266232)

Got it.

[eduardo89]

So,

LEDs = logical
Electric vehicles = homosexual (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?430299-Chris-Matthews-praises-Rand-Paul-for-driving-a-Prius#post_message_5266232)
Got it.

Good, you get it.

[FindLiberty]

Gett'n salmonella from my easy-bake... 0:59

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO5lGpFGcJY (Warning: Severe chorus/harmony pitch correction fail)

[oyarde]

Uh huh, and they burn out way before the advertised life span.

Not to mention the driver circuits get almost as hot as an incandescent.

I tried some in the bathroom and basement, burned out quick.......

[eduardo89]

Uh huh, and they burn out way before the advertised life span.

Not to mention the driver circuits get almost as hot as an incandescent.

The heat problems were an issue on 1st and 2nd generation bulbs, not so much today, especially in 4th generation bulbs.

[JK/SEA]

well thank the Lord this ban is FINALLY in place.

We are now safe from imminent global destruction of the planet.

that is all .................................................. ....suckers.

[Madison320]

That CNN article reads like an advertisement or state propaganda, including some of the comments.

I like the "unbiased" caption:

"New rules mean that traditional 40 and 60-watt incandescent bulbs won't be made after the start of the year, despite efforts by tea party types to thwart the law."

[JK/SEA]

I like the "unbiased" caption:

"New rules mean that traditional 40 and 60-watt incandescent bulbs won't be made after the start of the year, despite efforts by tea party types to thwart the law."

we have arrived.....lol...

[PaulConventionWV]

Yeah, cuz I can afford $60 bucks everytime a 60 cent lightbulb burns out in my house. Sure it will add up and cut down on total power costs, but those savings are offset by the assinine prices of the newer lightbulbs. If they were more affordable, I wouldnt have such an issue with it. Just another indication of extreme corporate greed.

Corporate greed? We have a BAN in place, and you're going to blame this on the corporations?

[JK/SEA]

Corporate greed? We have a BAN in place, and you're going to blame this on the corporations?

why not?

[PaulConventionWV]

I'm going to go with corporate greed. It was, after all the light bulb manufacturing trade groups that were pushing for this ban and the new, more expensive bulbs. I am quite sure, they will always cost more than a basic incandescent. They wouldn't have paid money to lobby if there wasn't a payday at the end for them.

-t

That is ridiculous. Corporate greed is a liberal scapegoat. We can't blame every market regulation on corporations. Sometimes, the GOVERNMENT is to blame for the bans and regulations that it puts in place. After all, the GOVERNMENT is the one that's enacting this legislation that keeps coming out, not corporations. Lobbying can only do so much. It's not like lobbying is an actual financial transaction where one party exchanges money for a new law. The law has to actually be put in place like any other law, through Congress, and they do this irrespective of the effect of lobbying. You may say lobbying helps push some legislators to accept a new law, but in the end, it's not their fault. Everyone has the right to issue a redress of grievances against their government, and we're supposed to have a system that prevents this kind of ignorance on the part of lawmakers, but apparently, nobody foresaw what stupid sheep lawmakers would be today. There is something going on here, and it's time to stop pointing the finger and people wanting to make money. Everybody wants to make money, but it's the system of government that's broken, not capitalism, which allows corporations to do what they need to do to make money. The government is responsible, not business in general.

[PaulConventionWV]

I would be willing to part with my stockpile of bulbs for silver. Doubt I'll get any takers though. I need to take inventory, not sure what I have.

Depends on what the exchange rate of light bulbs/silver is in your opinion.

[PaulConventionWV]

It sure as shit does have something to do with "corporate greed".

Who the fuck do you think was pushing for this ban?

The makers of non incandescent bulbs.

What better way to put your competitors out of business, than by force of law.

Corporate greed exists, sure, but it's still a cop-out. I've seen you around here long enough to know you'll agree that corporations aren't evil for being greedy. They're doing what corporations do. Ultimately, however, "corporate greed" is cheap rhetoric by liberals who don't understand how the economy works. Things are priced according to the market, not "corporate greed". Corporate greed is not responsible for the decline in your standard of living; government is.

[JK/SEA]

Corporate greed exists, sure, but it's still a cop-out. I've seen you around here long enough to know you'll agree that corporations aren't evil for being greedy. They're doing what corporations do. Ultimately, however, "corporate greed" is cheap rhetoric by liberals who don't understand how the economy works. Things are priced according to the market, not "corporate greed". Corporate greed is not responsible for the decline in your standard of living; government is.

what?....really?....lol...you trying to tell me politicians aren't in the pockets of corporate lawyers, and CEO's??...


okey dokey smokey.

[PaulConventionWV]

Just pointing out that your short-term thinking actually costs you more (much much more, in fact) in the long-run.

As I said in my first post in this thread, I'm against banning incandescent bulbs. I just think people who are stocking up on them are idiots, especially the ones who think they'll be saving money by using $1 light bulbs which use 6-7 times more energy and last 1/5th the time of a $10 LED. They end up paying about $300 more going with an incandescent than they would if they went with one LED. But this is just typical of short-sighted ignorant American consumers.

Wait a second, what do you know about the American consumer? People on this board saying to stock up do not represent the American consumer. For all you know, the American consumer in general may be eating this shit up and supporting the law while they're at it. Last time I checked, people on this board are nothing like the average American consumer.

[PaulConventionWV]

So,

LEDs = logical
Electric vehicles = homosexual (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?430299-Chris-Matthews-praises-Rand-Paul-for-driving-a-Prius#post_message_5266232)

Got it.

Uh..... ok?

[PaulConventionWV]

why not?

Did the corporations write the law? Did the corporations corrupt the minds of the legislators? Did the corporations fuck up the entire system? No, they stood in the lobby with their hands out. We really just need to stop thinking about things in terms of righteous profit margins and start thinking of things in terms of stifling government action, regardless of outside influence. The corporations shouldn't be receiving hate/blame for any of this because if such legislation could put you out of business, it would only make sense to go to the capitol with your hand out to counteract other businesses. In the end, it all rests on the action of lawmakers.

[PaulConventionWV]

what?....really?....lol...you trying to tell me politicians aren't in the pockets of corporate lawyers, and CEO's??...


okey dokey smokey.

The government is pulling the strings, not the corporations. What you call "in the pockets of", I call the government's favor toward a particular type of business. We're not being ruled over by a bunch of CEOs. It goes deeper than that.

[donnay]

Did the corporations write the law? Did the corporations corrupt the minds of the legislators? Did the corporations fuck up the entire system? No, they stood in the lobby with their hands out. We really just need to stop thinking about things in terms of righteous profit margins and start thinking of things in terms of stifling government action, regardless of outside influence. The corporations shouldn't be receiving hate/blame for any of this because if such legislation could put you out of business, it would only make sense to go to the capitol with your hand out to counteract other businesses. In the end, it all rests on the action of lawmakers.

The corporations that have CFL's and LED's have huge lobbyist. Those Lobbyist pay the politicians to write the laws...that's how this corruption continues.

Do you know lots of Big Oil lobby for green technology so they can knock out the little guys quickly either by buying them out, or discrediting them.

ETA: Our government is a corporation.

[PaulConventionWV]

The corporations that have CFL's and LED's have huge lobbyist. Those Lobbyist pay the politicians to write the laws...that's how this corruption continues.

Do you know lots of Big Oil lobby for green technology so they can knock out the little guys quickly either by buying them out, or discrediting them.

ETA: Our government is a corporation.

I still don't see any evidence of this literal transaction that you claim takes place where a CEO hands over a bunch of cash in exchange for a law from 535 people. Even if that's true, the government is still the one pulling the strings. I don't see it as the companies having government in their pockets, I see it as the government handing out favors to specific companies in return for their cooperation with the government's agenda. It's a collusion of the two, no doubt, but the idea that the corporations are lording over us by pulling the strings of government just stems from this naive idea that "big money is evil". It's the government's fault that they write the laws and allow themselves to be corrupted, so let's treat it that way.

[JK/SEA]

follow the money. Simple.

Donnay is correct.

yeah, i gave 5 million to a PAC. I wonder if i'll get my widget bill passed...

[angelatc]

It sure as shit does have something to do with "corporate greed".

Who the fuck do you think was pushing for this ban?

The makers of non incandescent bulbs.

What better way to put your competitors out of business, than by force of law.

Really? They had enough money to out-lobby corporations like GE and Sylvania?


For the most part the same people make both types of bulbs. In fact, GE lobbied against the repeal of the incandescent ban.

[donnay]

I still don't see any evidence of this literal transaction that you claim takes place where a CEO hands over a bunch of cash in exchange for a law from 535 people. Even if that's true, the government is still the one pulling the strings. I don't see it as the companies having government in their pockets, I see it as the government handing out favors to specific companies in return for their cooperation with the government's agenda. It's a collusion of the two, no doubt, but the idea that the corporations are lording over us by pulling the strings of government just stems from this naive idea that "big money is evil". It's the government's fault that they write the laws and allow themselves to be corrupted, so let's treat it that way.

Are you familiar with the term: Corporatocracy? If you cannot see the evidence, which is around all of us, then I would say you are not paying close attention.

This picture sums it up:

h/t mosquitobite
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/q83/s720x720/1379934_10202072564633618_680183908_n.jpg

[angelatc]

Just pointing out that your short-term thinking actually costs you more (much much more, in fact) in the long-run.

As I said in my first post in this thread, I'm against banning incandescent bulbs. I just think people who are stocking up on them are idiots, especially the ones who think they'll be saving money by using $1 light bulbs which use 6-7 times more energy and last 1/5th the time of a $10 LED. They end up paying about $300 more going with an incandescent than they would if they went with one LED. But this is just typical of short-sighted ignorant American consumers.


Love you dear, but LEDs don't work well in applications that require diffused light. They're wonderful as spotlights, or in recessed lighting fixtures, but putting them in a table lamp gives you a circle of light on the ceiling but not much else.

Switching to CFL will save me about $140 dollars over 30 years. Inflation alone will eat that up, so that's a non-issue.

I will admit that the amount of time that the bulbs last sucks lately. That didn't used to be the case though.

[JK/SEA]

so these new light emitters are cheaper than incandescent bulbs, and work better, safer, and are superior than incandescent....

Damn i love technology. Its all good right?.....right?

[angelatc]

so these new light emitters are cheaper than incandescent bulbs?

In the long term, yes. But not at the cash register.

And incandescent bulbs used to last years. Now we're lucky if they last months. Same with CFL bulbs. No reason to think that the lifespan of the LEDs won't start to decline too.

[donnay]

Really? They had enough money to out-lobby corporations like GE and Sylvania?


For the most part the same people make both types of bulbs. In fact, GE lobbied against the repeal of the incandescent ban.

You just proved our point. You think GE cares about lighting? Honey they care more about endless wars...that's where the money is.

This is a little outdated but you get the gist.

John F. Welch, Jr., CEO, General Electric of Fairfield. Connecticut
2002 Salary: $15.1 million
Campaign Contributions in 2002: $221,350, Military Contracts 2000-2003: $7.7 billion
Products: Aircraft engines, nuclear reactors, NBC news, msnbc.com

[eduardo89]

Love you dear, but LEDs don't work well in applications that require diffused light. They're wonderful as spotlights, or in recessed lighting fixtures, but putting them in a table lamp gives you a circle of light on the ceiling but not much else.

I agree. I use CFL's in lamps, but since I only have 3 lamps in my entire house, I rely on recessed light fixtures for 99% of my light.



Switching to CFL will save me about $140 dollars over 30 years. Inflation alone will eat that up, so that's a non-issue.

Actually, you'll probably save MORE due to price inflation. Energy prices rise faster than inflation.


No reason to think that the lifespan of the LEDs won't start to decline too.

LED lifespans have actually increased from 1st to 4th generation, from 25,000 hours to 50,000 hours (some bulbs are even rated at 100,000 hours!)

[Christian Liberty]

I'm anything but a bleeding heart liberal, I'm definitely one of the most 'conservative' members on this forum and I've gone 100% LED.
How do you quantify "conservative"? At the very least you'd have to acknowledge different types of conservatives. Most Americans think of neocons that are a little bit more fiscally conservative as "conservatives".

[PaulConventionWV]

Are you familiar with the term: Corporatocracy? If you cannot see the evidence, which is around all of us, then I would say you are not paying close attention.

This picture sums it up:

https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/q83/s720x720/1379934_10202072564633618_680183908_n.jpg

It's easy to say "The evidence is all around us" to someone without really substantiating that claim and thinking you've won that debate. "It's a fact! There is no argument!"

You're going to have to do a little better than that. The collusion of government and corporations doesn't always result in this "corporatocracy" that you don't really describe. Like I said, the government is pulling the strings and handing out favors. Do companies pay for favors? Probably. Are they the be-all-and-end-all of US politics? Not in the slightest. The government's agenda goes far beyond making dirty money, and they have corporations as their willing accomplices.

[angelatc]

LED lifespans have actually increased from 1st to 4th generation, from 25,000 hours to 50,000 hours (some bulbs are even rated at 100,000 hours!)[/QUOTE]


Sure, the early CFL bulbs are probably still burning somewhere. But as the price point came down so did the hours they lasted. Planned obsolescence.

[angelatc]

It's easy to say "The evidence is all around us" to someone without really substantiating that claim and thinking you've won that debate. "It's a fact! There is no argument!"


Her next move will involve calling you a shill, and then posting some story that unrelated to the original topic, but has at least an undertone of corporate malfeasance.

[eduardo89]

Sure, the early CFL bulbs are probably still burning somewhere. But as the price point came down so did the hours they lasted. Planned obsolescence.

I wouldn't chalk it down to 'planned obsolescence' since CFL bulbs aren't obsolete. I'd say that the bulbs that aren't lasting as long are newer entrants into the sector, who to gain a foothold and market share, either are using lower quality materials or an inferior production process to produce bulbs at a cheaper price. In the end, you almost always get what you pay for. Go for the cheaper bulbs and you will get an inferior product.

[donnay]

It's easy to say "The evidence is all around us" to someone without really substantiating that claim and thinking you've won that debate. "It's a fact! There is no argument!"

You're going to have to do a little better than that. The collusion of government and corporations doesn't always result in this "corporatocracy" that you don't really describe. Like I said, the government is pulling the strings and handing out favors. Do companies pay for favors? Probably. Are they the be-all-and-end-all of US politics? Not in the slightest. The government's agenda goes far beyond making dirty money, and they have corporations as their willing accomplices.

I am not sitting here saying I won anything. :rolleyes: I am saying "think..." who stands to gain with endless wars. Who stands to gain by discrediting alternative energy? Who stands to gain by making living off the grid illegal? How stands to gain by banning alternative medicine? Who stands to gain by making alternative food illegal? What major corporations have a monopoly on our media?

Our government has been hijacked--plain and simple. We, as consumers, are paying for the chains that are enslaving us. It's all about control.

[angelatc]

I wouldn't chalk it down to 'planned obsolescence' since CFL bulbs aren't obsolete.

No the phrase can also refer to making a product that is designed to fail. Broken windows marketing.



I'd say that the bulbs that aren't lasting as long are newer entrants into the sector, who to gain a foothold and market share, either are using lower quality materials or an inferior production process to produce bulbs at a cheaper price. In the end, you almost always get what you pay for. Go for the cheaper bulbs and you will get an inferior product.

You'd think, but the CFLs I got when they first hit the market cost me $1 (it was a promotional deal) and when I moved out of the house 3 years later they were all still burning.

These day, I buy the bulbs that they have at the grocery store, and they sometimes last a month. Incandescents even less. Decorative incandescents often burn out the 2nd time the switch is turned on. And they are made by GE and Sylvania.

[eduardo89]

No the phrase can also refer to making a product that is designed to fail. Broken windows marketing.

Well, obviously every light bulb will eventually fail ;)

[donnay]

Well, obviously every light bulb will eventually fail ;)

For a 112 years the one in the firehouse in Livermore, California only went out do to power failure for about 9 hours but went back on when the power was restored.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ7MqfWqAdQ

[angelatc]

Well, obviously every light bulb will eventually fail ;)


Yes, but if I make one that fails once per month, I will sell a lot more light bulbs over the course of 10 years than I will if I make one that lasts 10 years. I think it's like the food that is packed in smaller sizes so the manufacturer can avoid the perception of having raised prices.

That's what frustrated me about incandescent bulbs. I would happily pay $10 for a single bulb if I could be assured that I didn't need to change it every 60 days, but that option wasn't available. No matter which bulbs I bought , they didn't last like they used to.

[Romulus]

Are CFL's safe or do they put out 'dirty electricity' that I hear about...

[angelatc]

Are CFL's safe or do they put out 'dirty electricity' that I hear about...


Well, that's only an issue if you take off the foil hat.

[donnay]

Are CFL's safe or do they put out 'dirty electricity' that I hear about...

I don't think there safe at all. Hold an EMF meter up against the CFL's and the meter goes off the charts. Some LED's as well.

Citizens for Safe Technology
http://citizensforsafetechnology.org/electrical--cfls-in-communities-governments,67,0



Electromagnetic hypersensitivity: biological effects of dirty electricity with emphasis on diabetes and multiple sclerosis.

Havas M.


Author information




Abstract


Dirty electricity is a ubiquitous pollutant. It flows along wires and radiates from them and involves both extremely low frequency electromagnetic fields and radio frequency radiation. Until recently, dirty electricity has been largely ignored by the scientific community. Recent inventions of metering and filter equipment provide scientists with the tools to measure and reduce dirty electricity on electrical wires. Several case studies and anecdotal reports are presented. Graham/Stetzer (GS) filters have been installed in schools with sick building syndrome and both staff and students reported improved health and more energy. The number of students needing inhalers for asthma was reduced in one school and student behavior associated with ADD/ADHD improved in another school. Blood sugar levels for some diabetics respond to the amount of dirty electricity in their environment. Type 1 diabetics require less insulin and Type 2 diabetics have lower blood sugar levels in an electromagnetically clean environment. Individuals diagnosed with multiple sclerosis have better balance and fewer tremors. Those requiring a cane walked unassisted within a few days to weeks after GS filters were installed in their home. Several disorders, including asthma, ADD/ADHD, diabetes, multiple sclerosis, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, are increasing at an alarming rate, as is electromagnetic pollution in the form of dirty electricity, ground current, and radio frequency radiation from wireless devices. The connection between electromagnetic pollution and these disorders needs to be investigated and the percentage of people sensitive to this form of energy needs to be determined.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17178585

[JK/SEA]

c'mon, we all know the REAL issue is not about quality, savings, or safety...

ITS ABOUT MY FUCKIN CHOICE BEING TAKEN AWAY...GOD DAMMIT I HATE THIS SHIT...

i think i might go out and burn some rubber, or dump my used crank case oil in the river.

[Anti Federalist]

That's that line voltage fluctuation that I was speaking of in another post.

Course it'll be pooh-poohed off and nothing but conspiracy rambling.

Guess I'll have to take a picture of my multimeter as reads 132 volts plugged into a wall socket.


Yes, but if I make one that fails once per month, I will sell a lot more light bulbs over the course of 10 years than I will if I make one that lasts 10 years. I think it's like the food that is packed in smaller sizes so the manufacturer can avoid the perception of having raised prices.

That's what frustrated me about incandescent bulbs. I would happily pay $10 for a single bulb if I could be assured that I didn't need to change it every 60 days, but that option wasn't available. No matter which bulbs I bought , they didn't last like they used to.

[Anti Federalist]

c'mon, we all know the REAL issue is not about quality, savings, or safety...

ITS ABOUT MY FUCKIN CHOICE BEING TAKEN AWAY...GOD DAMMIT I HATE THIS SHIT...

i think i might go out and burn some rubber, or dump my used crank case oil in the river.

I'll join you.

[angelatc]

I don't think there safe at all. Hold an EMF meter up against the CFL's and the meter goes off the charts. Some LED's as well.

Citizens for Safe Technology
http://citizensforsafetechnology.org/electrical--cfls-in-communities-governments,67,0



Electromagnetic hypersensitivity: biological effects of dirty electricity with emphasis on diabetes and multiple sclerosis.

Havas M.


Author information




Abstract


Dirty electricity is a ubiquitous pollutant. It flows along wires and radiates from them and involves both extremely low frequency electromagnetic fields and radio frequency radiation. Until recently, dirty electricity has been largely ignored by the scientific community. Recent inventions of metering and filter equipment provide scientists with the tools to measure and reduce dirty electricity on electrical wires. Several case studies and anecdotal reports are presented. Graham/Stetzer (GS) filters have been installed in schools with sick building syndrome and both staff and students reported improved health and more energy. The number of students needing inhalers for asthma was reduced in one school and student behavior associated with ADD/ADHD improved in another school. Blood sugar levels for some diabetics respond to the amount of dirty electricity in their environment. Type 1 diabetics require less insulin and Type 2 diabetics have lower blood sugar levels in an electromagnetically clean environment. Individuals diagnosed with multiple sclerosis have better balance and fewer tremors. Those requiring a cane walked unassisted within a few days to weeks after GS filters were installed in their home. Several disorders, including asthma, ADD/ADHD, diabetes, multiple sclerosis, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, are increasing at an alarming rate, as is electromagnetic pollution in the form of dirty electricity, ground current, and radio frequency radiation from wireless devices. The connection between electromagnetic pollution and these disorders needs to be investigated and the percentage of people sensitive to this form of energy needs to be determined.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17178585

It's a miracle!!!!


It isn't even a study. It's just anecdotal evidence from a single person calling for studies. And it isn't like she has a Nobel Prize or anything that might grant her special publishing privileges. I'm not really familiar with the criteria they use to pick items they publish, but I'd like to know why they picked this one. Her previous publications have been roundly criticized. Here's one:

http://www.emfandhealth.com/EMF&Health%20EHS%20Poor%20Studies%206.html

And here's another:

http://www.badscience.net/2007/06/bmj-column-why-dont-journalists-mention-the-data/





There have now been 37 such double blind “provocation studies” [that discredit the theory] published in the peer reviewed academic literature, and they are almost all negative, although you could argue that the evidence is unanimous. There are, to be clear, seven studies that did find some statistically significant effect for electromagnetic signals: but for two of those, even the original authors have been unable to replicate the results; for the next three, the results seem to be statistical artefacts (one tailed t-tests—presumptuous, you might say—and problems with multiple comparisons); and for the final two, the positive results are mutually inconsistent (one shows worsened mood with provocation, and the other shows improved mood: still sure a one tailed t-test is reasonable?).

[Anti Federalist]

Corporate greed exists, sure, but it's still a cop-out. I've seen you around here long enough to know you'll agree that corporations aren't evil for being greedy. They're doing what corporations do. Ultimately, however, "corporate greed" is cheap rhetoric by liberals who don't understand how the economy works. Things are priced according to the market, not "corporate greed". Corporate greed is not responsible for the decline in your standard of living; government is.

There is no "market".

Not when things are banned or restricted by force of law.

[angelatc]

There is no "market".

Not when things are banned or restricted by force of law.


Exactly right. If LEDs and CFLs are better choices for any or all reasons, the incandescent bulb would have died eventually. They didn't need to outlaw horses to get people to start buying cars.

[angelatc]

c'mon, we all know the REAL issue is not about quality, savings, or safety...

ITS ABOUT MY FUCKIN CHOICE BEING TAKEN AWAY...GOD DAMMIT I HATE THIS SHIT...

i think i might go out and burn some rubber, or dump my used crank case oil in the river.


You can throw your CFLs in the garbage. They'll teach them!

[angelatc]

That's that line voltage fluctuation that I was speaking of in another post.

Course it'll be pooh-poohed off and nothing but conspiracy rambling.

Guess I'll have to take a picture of my multimeter as reads 132 volts plugged into a wall socket.

Well, it might not hurt to have your meter calibrated. But in our old house we had surges you could see. Al the lights would brighten and /or dim. I don't get that so much here, but the bulbs don't last any longer.

[PRB]

Exactly right. If LEDs and CFLs are better choices for any or all reasons, the incandescent bulb would have died eventually. They didn't need to outlaw horses to get people to start buying cars.

but horses and bicycles ARE outlawed on most roads, aren't they?

[angelatc]

Damn. Wish I had seen this last year:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmhg7kMWlMQ

[angelatc]

but horses and bicycles ARE outlawed on most roads, aren't they?


I don't know about horses, but bikes are usually legal on all roads, except the interstate AFAIK.

[Dr.3D]

You can throw your CFLs in the garbage. They'll teach them!
That's what confuses me. Florescent light tubes have always had the same contents as one of those CFL "bulbs" and I've seen thousands of them thrown in the trash. I guess the mercury in them has suddenly become more dangerous than it was forty years ago?

[JK/SEA]

You can throw your CFLs in the garbage. They'll teach them!


sigh...really?...thats the best you can do when our choices are mandated by your buddies in congress?

i can still go out and buy a used, running FORD Pinto if i want...but i won't be able to buy a light bulb OF MY CHOICE...

fuck this shit.

[angelatc]

sigh...really?...thats the best you can do when our choices are mandated by your buddies in congress?

i can still go out and buy a used, running FORD Pinto if i want...but i won't be able to buy a light bulb OF MY CHOICE...

fuck this shit.


Yeah. And remember...the GOP is the party that gave us the light bulb ban. It is also the same party that tried to overturn it. And it now trying to overturn Obamacare.

They're weak. Always on defense, never on offense.

[eduardo89]

Yeah. And remember...the GOP is the party that gave us the light bulb ban. It is also the same party that tried to overturn it. And it now trying to overturn Obamacare.

They're weak. Always on defense, never on offense.

The law was actually passed in 2007, when the Democrats had control of the both the House and Senate, but Bush did sign it into law.

It passed the House 264-163. 159 Republicans voted no, while only 36 voted in favor. 228 Democrats voted in favor, and only 4 against.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll040.xml

Walter Jones voted in favor of it, Ron Paul voted against it.

[angelatc]

The law was actually passed in 2007, when the Democrats had control of the both the House and Senate, but Bush did sign it into law.

It passed the House 264-163. 159 Republicans voted no, while only 36 voted in favor. 228 Democrats voted in favor, and only 4 against.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll040.xml

Walter Jones voted in favor of it, Ron Paul voted against it.


Look for the Rep who introduced the bill. He lost his seat over it later, I think. ETA: Fred Upton, Michigan

[eduardo89]

Look for the Rep who introduced the bill. He lost his seat over it later, I think. ETA: Fred Upton, Michigan

Fred Upton is still in Congress. While he didn't introduce the bill, he did co-sponsor it, but ended up voted against it.

It was introduced by Nick Rahall, a Democrat from West Virginia. The bill was part of the Democrats' "100-Hour Plan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100-Hour_Plan)."

http://i.imgur.com/IJiaF95.png

[Anti Federalist]

Well, it might not hurt to have your meter calibrated. But in our old house we had surges you could see. Al the lights would brighten and /or dim. I don't get that so much here, but the bulbs don't last any longer.

It's a top of the line Fluke brand meter that I know is accurate.

I saw that 132 volt reading twice, locally.

The norm seems somewhere around 124 - 128 volts.

[JK/SEA]

gotta watch that left/right paradigm mindset.

i'm learning that when i start pointing fingers, i use my toes as well.

[angelatc]

It's a top of the line Fluke brand meter that I know is accurate.

I saw that 132 volt reading twice, locally.

The norm seems somewhere around 124 - 128 volts.


According to what I read, the norm should be around 117v. I'm out of my comfort zone. We need to hear from an electrician.

[PaulConventionWV]

Her next move will involve calling you a shill, and then posting some story that unrelated to the original topic, but has at least an undertone of corporate malfeasance.

It's ironic that you would rep me because you use that same tactic in the vaccine threads.

[PaulConventionWV]

I am not sitting here saying I won anything. :rolleyes: I am saying "think..." who stands to gain with endless wars. Who stands to gain by discrediting alternative energy? Who stands to gain by making living off the grid illegal? How stands to gain by banning alternative medicine? Who stands to gain by making alternative food illegal? What major corporations have a monopoly on our media?

Our government has been hijacked--plain and simple. We, as consumers, are paying for the chains that are enslaving us. It's all about control.

Yes, our government has been hijacked, but by whom? Not just someone wanting to make money. Our politicians aren't just there to make money off of dirty deals just like businesses aren't controlling it for the sake of making money off of it. TPTB aren't just some CEOs, they're much more powerful than that.

[donnay]

Yes, our government has been hijacked, but by whom? Not just someone wanting to make money. Our politicians aren't just there to make money off of dirty deals just like businesses aren't controlling it for the sake of making money off of it. TPTB aren't just some CEOs, they're much more powerful than that.

I get where you're going and I agree. My apologies.

[FindLiberty]

Yep, 127 VAC is a typical residential reading (Chicago suburbs). I've seen highs like 132/133 too.

I haven't checked industrial three phase power lately, but it was also very high (~128?) many moons ago.

When I was a 10 year old kid (testing 12AX7 tubes at the drugstore in the early 1960's) the expected and
specified AC line voltage was 110. Then came 115 / 117. Now it's supposed to be 120 VAC and that usually
measures 125+ with highs of 133 (measured on a quality, RMS capable digital meter like your Fluke).

Low line voltage used to cause AC motor and HVAC Compressor failures due to overheating. The higher line
voltages of today solved that problem and possibly started another set of problems. Those CFL lamps
seem to run very hot and then die after several years of hard use. I've seen 'em melt their own internal
solder connections to completely de-install the way-too-hot switching transistor. Discolored plastic bases
and dark tube ends are signs of this kind of thermal runaway self-destruct. It's known and expected with CFLs.

There's still an occasional Japanese 100V transformer getting ready to smoke here and there (plugged into
"120" 127 VAC USA power), but most modern switching power supplies are fine at any line voltage, and
some don't even care if it's 120 or 240 if the label says so. Don't get me started on all the troubles from
bad capacitor chemistry that happen at higher than line DC and at very low DC voltages. Ditto for some
split phase AC motor caps too.


It's a top of the line Fluke brand meter that I know is accurate.
I saw that 132 volt reading twice, locally. The norm seems somewhere around 124 - 128 volts.

[Anti Federalist]

Yep, 127 VAC is a typical residential reading (Chicago suburbs). I've seen highs like 132/133 too.

I haven't checked industrial three phase power lately, but it was also very high (~128?) many moons ago.

When I was a 10 year old kid (testing 12AX7 tubes at the drugstore in the early 1960's) the expected and
specified AC line voltage was 110. Then came 115 / 117. Now it's supposed to be 120 VAC and that usually
measures 125+ with highs of 133 (measured on a quality, RMS capable digital meter like your Fluke).

Low line voltage used to cause AC motor and HVAC Compressor failures due to overheating. The higher line
voltages of today solved that problem and possibly started another set of problems. Those CFL lamps
seem to run very hot and then die after several years of hard use. I've seen 'em melt their own internal
solder connections to completely de-install the way-too-hot switching transistor. Discolored plastic bases
and dark tube ends are signs of this kind of thermal runaway self-destruct. It's known and expected with CFLs.

There's still an occasional Japanese 100V transformer getting ready to smoke here and there (plugged into
"120" 127 VAC USA power), but most modern switching power supplies are fine at any line voltage, and
some don't even care if it's 120 or 240 if the label says so. Don't get me started on all the troubles from
bad capacitor chemistry that happen at higher than line DC and at very low DC voltages. Ditto for some
split phase AC motor caps too.

All that ^^^

[DamianTV]

According to what I read, the norm should be around 117v. I'm out of my comfort zone. We need to hear from an electrician.

Out of Date Electronics Background.

AC vs DC

AC is Alternating Current
DC is Direct Current

DC is the basis for Electronics, while AC is a Power Source.

With electronic components, like Memory in a Computer, a constant unchanging voltange is needed to maintain a "state" which is a really simplified from of how something electrical can maintain that "state", and thus "memory".

AC allows electricity to flow in one direction, then changes to the other direction. So it makes trying to measure the Power of AC consumption more difficult because it is so inheritly different from DC. An example of DC would be like a 12 volt battery. It puts out 12 volts at all times when it supplies power. In AC, that Voltage goes back and forth between 12 volts and -12 volts because it alternates. So AC would have a Peak Power of 12 volts, but because it goes back and forth, the math explains that since it isnt constant, it needs to be quantified differently. Which is where you might hear the term of RMS Power. RMS is lower than Peak Power in AC, in DC (constant) its always the same. AC and DC have advantages and disadvantages. Electronics cant run on AC, so AC needs to be converted from AC to DC. Power out of the wall to give juice to your computer or TV.

DC is type of power that any LED will need. Now, to try to explain what an LED is. LED is a Light Emitting Diode. I'll skip the Light Emitting part and jump into a Diode. A diode is a type of electronic component that allows an electrical current to only flow in one direction but not the other. These types of components are what are needed to convert AC to DC power and so forth because they only allow current to flow in one direction, but not the other. Now LEDs light up when there is current going through them.

I'll try to explain Current, Voltage, and Power as best as I can.

Current is the Number of Electrons flowing through a Circuit. You can have something that has a low voltage but a very high current. Current is what makes electricity dangerous. For example, you rub your feet on the carpet and get a shock, that shock has very very high voltage but zero current so it isnt dangerous. Those shocks can come as high as 50,000 volts or higher, but there are very few electrons to carry that power. I guess it could be described as if you were hit by one nerf ball going 50,000 miles an hour, but since it has no mass, you're aware that it made contact, but does no damage.

Voltage could be equated to "how fast" something is going. Its a very poor analogy since in electricity, its all actually going the speed of light, but makes more sense if you think of Voltage as like the flow of water through a garden hose. From the Garden Hose perspective, if there is very little water but a lot of "speed", you might have a Super Soaker or a Squirt Gun. That would be "High Voltage". You could also have a River that flows very very slowly. It has lots and lots of Water, but no speed. But if you were to kick up both the Quantity of Water, and the Force behind that Water, thats where you measure POWER.

POWER in Electicity is measured by multiplying Voltage and Current. Voltage is measured in, unsuprisingly, Volts, while Current is measured in Amps. So when you see claims that something has X number of Amps of Power, thats not its real power because your Voltage is not known. Power is measured in Watts. For example, compare the "Power Rating" of your Vaccum cleaner, usually measured in Amps (which is kind of BS), and your Microwave Oven, measured in Watts. The Watts provides accurate Power consumption, but trying to say something has X Number of Amps being power is not accurate for how much power something has. Your Power Bill is also measured in Watts, not Amps.

In electricity, you can Increase your Amps and Decrease your Volts to alter that electricity for whatever purpose. 2 Volts x 1 Amp = 2 Watts. Likewise 1 Volt x 2 Amps = 2 Watts. or 0.5 Volts x 4 Amps = 2 Watts. To "Transport" electricity over long distances, low voltates and increased Current is used because it prevents power loss. Thats why a Fallen Electrical Lines are so dangerous. Very very high current (Amps) to transport the eletricity but also makes it very dangerous. Household power is "safer" because it has a lot less current than what is carried on the power lines. Transformers are used to change that Voltage into Current at the Power Company and Current into Voltage on the Transformer for the Power Lines outside your house. Those are referred to as Step Up and Step Down Transformers.

Now, the way that this relates to Lightbulbs and LEDs in general is the type of power they use. The standard Incandescent Lightbulb (the one with the filament) can use either AC or DC power. Current goes through the filament and it heats up to create the "glow" that creates light. Problem there is that most of the power is actually given off in Heat, not Light. LEDs have a downside that they can only use DC power. The advantage is that they are much more energy efficient and give off much less heat than they do light. LEDs are based on Diode Technology which for a long time was only designed to work at low power levels. 12 volts, but your wall pumps out 120 volts peak power, which has a lower average and RMS power, but is still so much that it can easily fry most diodes. Diodes rated for 12 volts pretty much explode if you apply 120 volts DC power to them. So for an LED Lightbulb to work, first, that wall power has to be both converted from AC to DC, then stepped down so that the voltages applied to the LEDs receive only 12 volts. It also requires a Power Regulater to step down both the Current and Voltage, which is part of what makes them more efficient, more expensive to produce, and unfortunately, more parts that can fail.

Those Power Regulators are devices like what we call the "Wal Warts". Like the old video gaming consoles that had this big Brick you plugged into the wall, or your Cell Phone charger. Those devices step down the current and voltage and allow your Cell Phone to charge, and 8 Bit Nintendo Systems to work.

Fluorescent Lightbulbs, the ones that many times use Mercury also require what is called a Ballast. Ballast is used to energize the gases that are contained within the bulb itself. Again, its an increased cost due to more parts. Those Fluorescents could be best imagined from the type of ceiling lights in an office building. A lot of times, it isnt the Bulbs themselves that burn out, although they do, but its the Ballast that burns out. Fluorescents do have an advantage in that once the gases in the bulbs go into an "excited state" or where they're giving off light, they consume very very little power. They consume the most power when they are turned on, but take much less to maintain that excited state. And as is typical with most electronics, lightbulbs, and computers, failure of components occurs when those devices are turned on and off. Like when an Incandescent Bulb burns out, you flip the switch and it goes pop and burns out usually when you flip the switch. Same thing happens to your Fluroescent Bulbs as its the Ballast that fails, and LEDs, not so much as the LED itself that fails, but the Power Regulators and converters that fry. If we were to turn on an LED light and leave it on, it is very possible to leave that light on for literally a thousand years. But its that turning on and off that cooks the components, and usually the other components that fail.

Its this knowledge that has caused me to be Skeptical of the claims of LED lights are "better". Really, its a matter of investment costs and time to recover those intial costs to add up to savings. If LED lights burned out only half as quickly as an Incandescent Bulb, but cost twice the cost of the Incandescents, it would provide a savings due to total power consumption. But if the savings is offset by having to replace an LED bulb as frequently as the Incandescents, it is no longer financially advantageous to buy excessively expensive LED lights. The solution is that any type of light consumes as little power as possible, provides maximum light output, and lasts for maximum period of time, thats where the real savings are. Of course, LED lights are probably like anything else, you get what you pay for. LEDs have the potential to be great, but not if we have to spend excesses of money to replace bulbs more frequently than we should.

Hence, the "Corporate Greed" statement. Sure, keep your manufacturing costs as low as possible. But many companies survive due to repeat business. So they build in Planned Obsolescence where parts are manufactured to fail frequently because it provides repeat business. What would happen if cars were purposefully designed so poorly that you had to replace it every two years? I dont mean just fix one part on the car as some component failures have to be expected due to wear and tear, but for the whole car to be replaced. You'd probably perceive that as Corporate Greed as much as anyone else. We dont expect a single hamburger to be able to sustain us for years. Which is why the food industry is profitable. There is no expectation that a burger will fill us up for much more than a relatively short period of time. But in terms of other devices that fail more often than they should, I believe that is Planned Obsolescence and is a means of Corporate Greed. Its not as if Light itself ever becomes technologically outdated, but the components are not mechanical and thus should fail much less than they are. Iphones, computers, and TVs are becoming obsolete because there is newer technology that outperforms the old technology. At some point, that technology just is no longer compatible. 64 bit software cant run on a 32 bit machine. Its just newer technology, that isnt planned obsolescence as the tech has truly advanced. Planned Obsolescence could also be described as selling a person a license to read a book that expires after three months. The book doesnt change at all and the person is only given opportunity and license to read the book for a limited period of time. Hence why there is some angst against E-Books.

As usual, Im way off topic. Its not that I am opposed to LED lights. Or Pro. Im for what ever can save me the most ammt of money. I dont believe that what is available at this time is going to save me as much money as their claims vs reality indicate. The real problem at the heart of this is that the Law being passed results in Enforced Consumerism that does not yet provide the results that are needed. It wouldnt be much different than passing a Law that requires all toothbrushes to be Electronic Pulsating Toothbrushes, but with the added touch of not only requiring all Toothbrushes to be Electronic, but to take away the choice from the person to not be allowed to Floss either.

It sounds like Eduardo also has an electronics background, and Im so out of date, he could probably correct any issues with my explanation of electronics theory and possibly incorrectly defined terms.

http://physics.bu.edu/py106/notes/Power.html

---

@AntiFederalist

On your power meter, did it tell you what type of power measurement was being measured more specifically? RMS (Root Means Squared), or Peak (aka Peak to Peak) for AC current? A tad more info and we can fine tune the answer.

[Anti Federalist]

@AntiFederalist

On your power meter, did it tell you what type of power measurement was being measured more specifically? RMS (Root Means Squared), or Peak (aka Peak to Peak) for AC current? A tad more info and we can fine tune the answer.

LOL...I seem to have misplaced my MIT degree.

Fuck I dunno...I turned the meter to measure VAC up to 600 volts and started taking readings when I suspected the house lines of having other, unrelated issues.

Was surprised to find higher than normal readings.

I have since done it randomly when the mood strikes me or when I notice an obvious fluctuation in power.

[DamianTV]

Doesnt require an MIT degree to understand.

http://physics.bu.edu/py106/notes/Power.html

If you look at the voltage at its peak, it hits about +170 V, decreases through 0 to -170 V, and then rises back through 0 to +170 V again. (You might think this value of 170 V should really be 110 - 120 volts. That's actually a kind of average of the voltage, but the peak really is about 170 V.) This oscillating voltage produces an oscillating electric field; the electrons respond to this oscillating field and oscillate back and forth, producing an oscillating current in the circuit.

http://buphy.bu.edu/~duffy/PY106/ACvoltage.GIF

Only concept to really get is that in AC power, like the image indicates, that there is a Peak Power, an Average Power, and RMS Power, all three of which can be measured differently. You might have heard of something called a Three Phase Power Supply. What that would do is provide a much higher RMS Power. A 3 Phase Power Supply allows one of the phases to be at Peak Power while the other two Phases are not at their Peak Power. House Power Supply is typically a Single Phase, provided at 60Hz (cycles per second), while in Europe, they use 50Hz.

Also, in terms of Commercial Power (like for ones house), spikes in Voltage are quite normal and it isnt actually where most problems come from. Problems come in the form of Sustained Levels. Also, oddly enough, but a lot of Electronic Component Faiulres occur as a result of too little power as opposed to too much. When there is too little power, components start behaving unexpectedly. Components are usually rated to handle about a 20% variation in power. So say you have a 12 volt DC battery. The components that it powers are designed to work around that 20% variation. So when the battery drops down to 11 volts, components still work as expected. But drop down to 10 volts (-20%) and a component that is designed to operate at 12 volts isnt going to stay in its expected state. Apply 12 volts and a component is considered to be ON, but at 0 volts, its off. At 10 volts, theres no guarantee that it will be either on or off, and as a result, excesses of current can flow through the circuit, which is much higher than the power that is rated for, thus, components fry due to too little power causing too much power elsewhere in the circuit.

Does that sort of make sense?

If you see power that is on average above the expected rating, IE 120 volts AC and see it at 128 Volts, that could be considered to be a good thing as devices are designed to handle those spikes. But dropping to 95 Volts, that might wreak havoc in electronics. Of course, it still goes back to the basic of Balance. IE, Load Balancer (another type of Electronic Circuit). Too much or too little in extremes either way is where problems occur.

[FindLiberty]

Stop giving away all those electronic secrets or ELI the ICE man might come for you... in your sleep!

http://www.electronicstheory.com/html/e101-31.htm

[tangent4ronpaul]

Damn. Wish I had seen this last year:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmhg7kMWlMQ

Well, the good news is these are still available in 60 and 100 Watt versions from Home Depot. They cost $45 for a box of 10 and I was floored that Home Depot has a 90 day return policy on them but more so that they have a 1 year manufacturers guarantee! A light bulb with a guarantee??? WOW! Oh, and free shipping if bought online.

Now the bad news: Our society is doomed. Home Depot has a "instillation manual" for incandescent light bulbs... Yes, there is really a manual on how to screw in a light bulb. The public fool system has won.

http://www.homedepot.com/s/surge%2520resistant%2520light%2520bulb?NCNI-5#surge%2520resistant%2520light%2520bulb?NCNI-5&_suid=138726641775008540957874846656


Amazon has 130 Volt bulbs for much less, starting at $9 for 24 bulbs...
http://www.amazon.com/SYLVANIA-10489-60-Watt-130-Volt-Household/dp/B000BQPXFK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387268344&sr=8-1&keywords=130+volt+light+bulbs

http://www.amazon.com/Feit-Electric-60A-MP-130-Household/dp/B000KKQRQ6/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1387268344&sr=8-6&keywords=130+volt+light+bulbs

http://www.amazon.com/SLI-Incandescent-Bulbs-Extra-SLT60014/dp/B000J0C95A/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1387268765&sr=8-21&keywords=130+volt+light+bulbs

http://www.amazon.com/Havells-SLI-60010-Frosted-Incandescent-4-Pack/dp/B000273SXM/ref=sr_1_81?ie=UTF8&qid=1387268915&sr=8-81&keywords=130+volt+light+bulbs

etc...

-t

[tangent4ronpaul]

Well, I'll be dammed.

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f29/blowing-out-light-bulbs-20531/

Check the tab in the bottom of the socket. If it's crammed down into the socket, the lamps may not make good contact and create excessive heat. Turn the power off and pull the tab out to a 30° angle.

Believe it or not, there is a 'correct' way to install a lamp. Turn the lamp enough for the threads to hold it, turn the power on, and continue turning the lamp until it lights, then ¼ turn more.

-t