View Full Version : Do Unlivable Wages Cost Taxpayers Billions?
DamianTV
12-06-2013, 05:04 PM
Seems to be a Hot Topic recently.
Heres how it works. Wal Marx doesnt want to pay employees any more than they can get away with. Yet, they remain one of the most profitable businesses on the Planet. But Wal Marx doesnt employ the world. Most people that are working are employed by small and medium sized businesses. Businesses that may not be able to afford to pay their employees more.
One of Two things happens when the Minimum Wage is increased:
#1 Prices go up.
#2 Employees lose out on Jobs and Hours
Either way, the Financial Burden is shifted to YOU. You buy the goods and services that keep these businesses afloat. If prices go up, you pay more. If employees lose their job, or get a cut back in hours, many (not all) end up needing Welfare and other forms of Govt Financial Aid, which is another cost that is passed directly to you.
Govt passes costs to you in One of Two Ways:
A - Increase Taxes - Unpopular
B - Print Money - Popular - Inflationary and a Hidden Tax on the Value of your money.
It doesnt matter which one happens, ultimately, those costs are passed on to everyone else. The problem is that everyone has needs. People need to be paid a Livable Wage, but WE always have to pay for that Livable Wage. Many of us cant afford it. We also need prices of Goods and Services to remain as steady as possible. So either WE get what WE need, or THEY get what THEY need. Which one is more important? Since we're in the same sinking boat, I might as just say US instead of "WE" or "THEY".
I think the Important Question here is "How do we solve the problem without looking to the Govt for solutions"? Freezing Prices and Wages is no solution as it makes everyone more dependant on Big Govt. We also cant stay this course. Insanity could be defined as doing the same exact thing and expecting different results. If we ignore the problem, hours will be cut back even further, and with Inflation, wages will not increase, but the price of everything will continue to escalate. Welcome to Stagflation. Wal Marx might be able to afford paying their employees more, but many businesses cant. That and reductions in Wal Marx profit margins will directly affect the Stock Market (as corrupt as it is). Those solutions have all been suggested before, but we should all have the foresight to realize that they do not work due to the consequences that also result. I think we need a Free Market solution.
What is the Free Market Solution to this?
Where do we start? How do we get from where we are to where we need to be at? How do we go about achieving a solution that works for the Common Man? How do we avoid the Traps and Pitfalls of Socialism in acomplishing our goals? Just call this a "thought experiment".
(I turned this into a Poll just to see if people understand the problems that result from many of the suggested solutions.)
Grubb556
12-06-2013, 05:06 PM
I was always under the assumption that small organizations/associations of humans will always be more efficent than large ones, so I think in a theorectical free market, you wouldn't even have large corporations the size of WalMart.
DamianTV
12-06-2013, 06:08 PM
I was always under the assumption that small organizations/associations of humans will always be more efficent than large ones, so I think in a theorectical free market, you wouldn't even have large corporations the size of WalMart.
/agree
Hence the reason Monopolies are supposedly prohibited.
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Does anyone else see this as a 'Push' to possibly replace the Dollar with the Amero, or World'O? Or implement Martial Law where Govt can impose a mandatory Price Freeze on everything?
parocks
12-06-2013, 06:56 PM
We've had a minimum wage since 1938. Every so often it goes up. Nothing really to see here.
Brian4Liberty
12-06-2013, 06:56 PM
Do Unlivable Wages Cost Taxpayers Billions?
Yes.
Every favor granted by the government causes malinvestment and market distortions. Food stamps are an example. Wages would have to be higher without food stamps.
Red Green
12-06-2013, 07:54 PM
No, wealth transfers and subsidies to individuals and corporations costs taxpayers billions. Let to its own devices, the market would deliver a wage commensurate with the work being performed.
DamianTV
12-06-2013, 08:41 PM
We've had a minimum wage since 1938. Every so often it goes up. Nothing really to see here.
Its one thing when Minimum Wage is a Livable Wage. But those things are no longer the same.
Please explain exactly, when a person has to go on Welfare, that the cost of Minimum Wage, ore more specifically, the cost of the Welfare, is not passed along to everyone else?
(dont care about stats, just want to understand how you think it works / doesnt work)
erowe1
12-06-2013, 09:09 PM
Too bad it's not one of those polls where we can see who said yes.
FrankRep
12-06-2013, 09:28 PM
The Government and the Federal Reserve Cost Taxpayers Billions.
DamianTV
12-07-2013, 03:35 AM
Too bad it's not one of those polls where we can see who said yes.
I chose to not do that as that could have been a point of conflict between members.
It wasnt the easiest thing to paraphrase into a poll question either, if you saw the size of the original post.
LibertyEagle
12-07-2013, 04:45 AM
"How do we solve the problem without looking to the Govt for solutions"?
It's pretty simple. Stop believing that it is someone else's responsibility for someone else's lot in life. It's not.
Stop ALL forced extractions of other people's money by government which is then given to someone else. Of course, after the politicians and their cronies line their pockets with most of it.
Every American starts understanding that if they want a roof above their head, clothes to wear and food to eat, it is their responsibility to work to obtain it.
If they are unable to, understand that no one owes them anything, but that other individuals will most likely choose to help them through charities/churches.
After everyone realizes that they are responsible for themselves, the next step is to clear out the impediments for them being able to work and reap the benefits of their labor. So, this step involves removing all or most of the government restrictions and logjams that stand in the way of an individual's liberty to conduct business. Capitalism is the great equalizer, in that it has raised more people up from nothing to very wealthy people, than any other system known to man. Government should not be impeding an individual's ability to care for themselves and that is exactly what they are doing right now.
Suzanimal
12-07-2013, 05:44 AM
It's pretty simple. Stop believing that it is someone else's responsibility for someone else's lot in life. It's not.
Stop ALL forced extractions of other people's money by government which is then given to someone else. Of course, after the politicians and their cronies line their pockets with most of it.
Every American starts understanding that if they want a roof above their head, clothes to wear and food to eat, it is their responsibility to work to obtain it.
If they are unable to, understand that no one owes them anything, but that other individuals will most likely choose to help them through charities/churches.
After everyone realizes that they are responsible for themselves, the next step is to clear out the impediments for them being able to work and reap the benefits of their labor. So, this step involves removing all or most of the government restrictions and logjams that stand in the way of an individual's liberty to conduct business. Capitalism is the great equalizer, in that it has raised more people up from nothing to very wealthy people, than any other system known to man. Government should not be impeding an individual's ability to care for themselves and that is exactly what they are doing right now.
Great answer.
http://i.imgur.com/7nRrlsP.jpg
Red Green
12-07-2013, 08:50 AM
Its one thing when Minimum Wage is a Livable Wage. But those things are no longer the same.
Please explain exactly, when a person has to go on Welfare, that the cost of Minimum Wage, ore more specifically, the cost of the Welfare, is not passed along to everyone else?
(dont care about stats, just want to understand how you think it works / doesnt work)
The low wages are a symptom rather than the problem. You just stated the problem. I love it when people, especially in defense of Obamacare, claim that 'uninsured people cost the taxpayers millions each year!'. No, the govt costs taxpayers millions each year by forcing hospitals to provide care, whether the individual can pay or not.
Brian4Liberty
12-07-2013, 12:49 PM
It's a feedback situation. People who are unemployed or underemployed may need help. Big government nanny-statists are more than happy to oblige by increasing government aid. Government aid then allows people to work for less than a working wage, creating even more incentive for government to help.
Ender
12-07-2013, 12:59 PM
Wrong question.
And Walmart has nothing to do with the answer.
"Unlivable wages" come from forced unions and minimum wage laws combined with the FED and government interference in business. Get gov out of personal business and let businesses provide the wages they feel are appropriate. Profits go up, everyone propspers and it doesn't cost the taxpayers anything.
pcosmar
12-07-2013, 01:05 PM
, when a person has to go on Welfare,
Has to go on Welfare?
If there was no welfare this would not be a question.
The fact that welfare exists is the problem.
Keith and stuff
12-07-2013, 01:06 PM
Its one thing when Minimum Wage is a Livable Wage. But those things are no longer the same.
True. A lot of minimum wage workers make more than a livable wage because they are tipped workers. So there employer might pay them $2.50 or $5.00 and hour, heck, they may even have to pay their employer, but they might make $15 or $25 an hour on average.
pcosmar
12-07-2013, 01:10 PM
Voted other.
Government (Control) costs taxpayers billions.
The handouts are just another form of control.
Limit Government (tip jar) and eliminate taxpayers. Don't give the government money to spend.
angelatc
12-07-2013, 02:01 PM
Yes.
Every favor granted by the government causes malinvestment and market distortions. Food stamps are an example. Wages would have to be higher without food stamps.
Like you said, every favor granted by government causes malinvestment and market distortions.
I think the argument that's the inverse of the OP position is truer: - artifically inflated wages cost us far more money than the liberal's newest phrase, the so-called "unliveable" wages.
(Can someone explain to me why these forums have become nothing more than a place for progressives to spew their nonsense?)
This is why I sometimes think all hope is lost. Despite years of "educating" people, we can't get anybody to use the word non-intervention properly, but the unions put out a memo telling people how to win votes and influence people, and the hive-minded progressives immediately rebrand low wages as unliveable, and *poof*! Here comes someone like Damien proudly parrotting their courageous stand against low prices and market efficiency using the shiny new phrase. And of course he it combined with the favorite common enemy of the idiot parade, WalMart. Or, more accurately, WalMarx, just to make the point totally nonsensical. After all, let's not forget that the people who call it that are actually the hardcore supporters of Marxism.
Until we can brainwash the masses as quickly as they can brainwash weak minded thinkers like ol' Damien here, we don't have a prayer. We will constantly be on the defense, and that doesn't win football games, much less cultural wars.
"Unliveable wages." Bullshit.
Feeding the Abscess
12-07-2013, 04:25 PM
Stop ALL forced extractions of other people's money by government which is then given to someone else. Of course, after the politicians and their cronies line their pockets with most of it.
There is literally no way to do this unless you stop all forced extractions, and the only way to stop all forced extractions is to eliminate the State, eliminate the monopoly on law, justice, and enforcement given to the government.
DamianTV
12-07-2013, 04:55 PM
It's a feedback situation. People who are unemployed or underemployed may need help. Big government nanny-statists are more than happy to oblige by increasing government aid. Government aid then allows people to work for less than a working wage, creating even more incentive for government to help.
... which creates even more incentives for mega corporations to pass along the costs of their low wages to everyone else, or expect those low paid workers to shoulder the burden themselves.
Redistribution of Wealth actually turned out to be an Incentive towads Poverty.
---
The low wages are a symptom rather than the problem. You just stated the problem. I love it when people, especially in defense of Obamacare, claim that 'uninsured people cost the taxpayers millions each year!'. No, the govt costs taxpayers millions each year by forcing hospitals to provide care, whether the individual can pay or not.
+Rep
Lots of symptoms to point the finger at:
Minimum Wage
Obamacare
Welfare
Standards of Living
I have a good idea of what i think is the Source of the Problem. Anyone else wanna take a stab at it?
tod evans
12-07-2013, 05:04 PM
From my perspective the problem is too much government at every level.
Too many rules-n-regulations.
Too many taxes.
Too many aid programs.
Too many subsidies.
Too many crony contracts.
Too many God-damn government employees!
And not enough people making stuff.
DamianTV
12-07-2013, 05:08 PM
This is what happens when people fight over Table Scraps of the 1%. But it isnt the Source of the Problem, as pointed out by RedGreen. Imagine we stay this course for the next 10 years (and survive as a whole). What will our Income Inequality look like in the Future?
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