Hypothetical: Does thugish behavior trickle down to policing institutions from the top

[enhanced_deficit]

if they perceive a thug to be in the WH and that there is/will be little to none accountability from top to bottom even if innocent people are harassed/imprisoned/killed without due process of law?

Strictly hypothetical Q.

[acptulsa]

Every time I've ever moved, my cats have to be retrained not to get on the kitchen counter or the dining table. A change means a re-examination of their limits, as far as they're concerned. Children are often the same way. Hell, adults will do this when their boss is replaced by someone else.

Why would cops be different? I don't think they take their cues from that high up. Many of them just do what they want and see if they get their wrists slapped, that's all.

[phill4paul]

if they perceive a thug to be in the WH and that there is/will be little to none accountability from top to bottom even if innocent people are harassed/imprisoned/killed without due process of law?

Strictly hypothetical Q.

No. The thugs would just normally be considered criminals. They've just found a system to operate in.

[enhanced_deficit]

Compelling points but I tend to disagree on the inference based on recent empirical evidence. Police abuse cases in the US seem to have spiked in recent years since occupant in the WH publicly justified assassination of US citizens without a trial and escalated signature target killings abroad using drones. Miriam Carey is just exhibit-most recent.

[phill4paul]

Compelling points but I tend to disagree on the inference based on recent empirical evidence. Police abuse cases in the US seem to have spiked in recent years since occupant in the WH publicly justified assassination of US citizens without a trial and escalated signature target killings abroad using drones. Miriam Carey is just exhibit-most recent.

It is not, and has never been, a new phenomenon. One could put the blame on Bush or any predecessors.

[enhanced_deficit]

It is not, and has never been, a new phenomenon. One could put the blame on Bush or any predecessors.

Conceding that macro environment changed in 2001, you are not suggesting degree of "Police State" and all that goes with it has been same when Carter,Reagan, Clinton, Bush, Drone king were in WH?

There is plenty of evidence both at home and abroad that suggests otherwise.

One could argue that things have been getting worse progressively over time reagardless of what kind of character occupied WH.. but I think there has been a marked difference and more "cold blooded" attitude about institutionlizing some of the most unimaginable/un-American infractions since the "man from the streets" was recruited by neocons per Howard Stern's theory. I would argue it matters who is in the WH when it comes to setting tone of institutional policies both domestic and foreign within certain limits.

[phill4paul]

Conceding that macro environment changed in 2001, you are not suggesting degree of "Police State" and all that goes with it has been same when Carter,Reagan, Clinton, Bush, Drone king were in WH?

There is plenty of evidence both at home and abroad that suggests otherwise.

One could argue that things have been getting worse progressively over time reagardless of what kind of character occupied WH.. but I think there has been a marked difference and more "cold blooded" attitude about institutionlizing some of the most unimaginable/un-American infractions since the "man from the streets" was recruited by neocons per Howard Stern's theory. I would argue it matters who is in the WH when it comes to setting tone of institutional policies both domestic and foreign within certain limits.

The blue line has always covered for the blue line. Police abuse has always been with us. I concede that there has been a militarization of police since 9/11 but police abuse and cover-up have been a part of the blue line since inception.

eta: Surely it comes from top down. i just don't think it has as much to do with the president as it does the local power structure.

[enhanced_deficit]

The blue line has always covered for the blue line. Police abuse has always been with us. I concede that there has been a militarization of police since 9/11 but police abuse and cover-up have been a part of the blue line since inception.

We don't disagree then.

Police abuse has always been there, it is the degree/extent to which things have changed in recent years that OP was referring to.

[enhanced_deficit]

Every time I've ever moved, my cats have to be retrained not to get on the kitchen counter or the dining table. A change means a re-examination of their limits, as far as they're concerned. Children are often the same way. Hell, adults will do this when their boss is replaced by someone else.

Why would cops be different? I don't think they take their cues from that high up. Many of them just do what they want and see if they get their wrists slapped, that's all.

Ok, I meant all institutions down the line though, "cops" are just the user interface for street actions.

[acptulsa]

eta: Surely it comes from top down. i just don't think it has as much to do with the president as it does the local power structure.

That was traditionally the case until recently. I'm sure the Department of Homeland Security has changed that, though.

I believe that in most jurisdictions, police abuse was becoming less prevalent--until the fedgov got into the act. Now it seems to me to be on the rise again. Maybe this is just because, thanks to the internet, we have a way to bypass the media and hear about it. And maybe this is the effect the lack of accountability we have over the DPS is having on the situation.

[enhanced_deficit]

Controversial Newt had joined the fray.

"Gangs have increased by 40 percent since this president was elected." (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jul/24/newt-gingrich/newt-gingrich-says-gangs-have-increased-40-percent/)

Newt Gingrich on Sunday, July 21st, 2013 in a roundtable discussion on CNN's "State of the Union"

Newt Gingrich says gangs have increased by 40 percent since Barack Obama was elected


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG7sIbvP4lk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG7sIbvP4lk

[Philhelm]

I like the scene in Reservoir Dogs when Michael Madsen slices off a cops ear and douses the pig with gasoline. I also like the earlier conversation when Mr. Pink is asked if he killed anyone and his response is, no just some pigs, not real people. Merry Christmas.

[LibForestPaul]

I know more than one cop who states unequivocally that they are actively recuiting "thugs".

[enhanced_deficit]

I know more than one cop who states unequivocally that they are actively recuiting "thugs".

I know at least one MSM pundit (Howard Stern) who stated on air on 9/11 that Bush was too soft to handle mideast people and a "man from the streets" ( not sure if it can be tralslated to "thug") needs to be recruited for White House post.

I have no idea if/how much money Stern gave to DDK bundlers but he did say this on air.

[enhanced_deficit]

In unrelated news:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7mxePoozVc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7mxePoozVc




(http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?443969-Mayor-Ray-Nagin-Guilty-on-20-21-counts-in-corruption-trial&#post5417070)Mayor Ray Nagin: Why I Nominate Barack Obama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7mxePoozVc)

Mayor Ray Nagin Guilty on 20/21 counts in corruption tria (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?443969-Mayor-Ray-Nagin-Guilty-on-20-21-counts-in-corruption-trial&#post5417070)

Most Americans see Obama as Dishonest, Untrustworthy (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?433586-Majority-of-Americans-now-believe-Obama-is-quot-dishonest-and-untrustworthy)

[WM_in_MO]

I'll compare it to coaching:

You're either teaching it, or you're letting it happen.

[Danke]

I'd have to say no, there has always been that <5% bad apples in every organization.

[Occam's Banana]

I don't think "thuggish behavior" trickles down from the top - because those "at the top" don't directly indulge in any behavior that is thuggish per se.

That is, after all, exactly what the Brute Squads are for in the first place - so that the people "at the top" don't have to get their hands dirty (or bloody).

IOW: It's not really a matter of thuggish behavior "trickling down" - it's just a matter of the built-in "division of labor" in the way the system is designed ...

Mostly, it's just silent & passive enablement - although every once in a while, the Brute Squads might get an explicit pat on the head (such as the standing ovation for the Miriam Carrey killers).


I'd have to say no, there has always been that <5% bad apples in every organization.

Ah, but remember - in this case the "organization" is, "at the top," Congress and the White House ... how 'bout them apples?

[enhanced_deficit]

But unless media is far more vigilant than the past, news reports of shooting of suspected Americans seem to have spiked lately.


Related

Entire House Of Reps Gives Standing Ovation To Cops After Killing Unarmed Mother (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?429504-Entire-House-Of-Reps-Gives-Standing-Ovation-To-Cops-After-Killing-Unarmed-Mother&)

[DamianTV]

It does trickle down from the top, but it also changes forms. There are many ways to cause harm to an individual. Physical is obvious, and whats happening in Ferguson right now. However, there are so many different forms that it is worth while to enumerate. Emotional Trauma. You know, the kind that occurs in Public School. Wide range of things happen in Public School, but sticking to the ways to cause harm to an individual list, you now have Physical and Emotional. There is also Legal, Reputational, Intellectual, Spiritual, Medical, Food, Restrictional and Financial. The abuse that trickles down from the top often starts as Restrictional and Financial. When it hits other layers through which it trickles down, it can change forms. Like a guy that gets fired from his job and goes home and kicks the family dog. Now Cops do have it better than most private sector employees as far as their paychecs go, but make no mistake, if anyone is not part of the very tippy top 0.01%, then finances are suffering. Cops are mostly immune to Legal harm, but they are doing a really good job of harming their own Reputations through their constant Legal and Physical abuses of their victims.

Abuse doesnt come just from the Cops however as it comes in many different forms. Being denied a permit to open a new business for various reasons, even when the application is valid, yet denied. Another form of abuse can come from a Family Court, where really stupid things end up resulting in the child being taken away from their rightful parents. Remember, we're talking about obvious abuse, so situations like true Child Abuse, which does occur, dont really apply. Still beyond their authority but people arent going to feel bad about taking away someones kid from parents who break their childrens legs over spilled milk. Taxation (Financial) can also be a form of abuse. Sick the IRS on anyone (groups) who did not support Obama in the last election. Another form of abuse would be Employment abuse. This one does consider the Over The Top things that Employers may demand of employees. Not talking about Drug Testing being restrictive of what a person can and cant do at home. If a bartender doesnt upsell at least 20 meals to include alcohol per day, the bartender is written up then terminated. Another form might be to demand employees increase their productivity by 500% when they are already breaking their backs to put out 100%. Right now, there appears to be a lot of demand to enable employers to have ever increasing authority over employees, but it can still wander into the areas of abuse, regardless of validating reasons or excuses. The important thing here to note about abuse of employees is that it also trickles down. People can also be abused Medically. Typically Medical quickly alters from into Financial. Eight Hundred Bucks for a fucking aspirin. Theres also Intellectual Abuse. Things like Propoganda by the MSM. It deprives people of the actual facts and distorts truth into lies that people believe, then act upon. Spiritual Abuse could be like China or certain areas of the Middle East where the open display of religious worship is prohibited based on which beliefs are being expressed and others allowed.

If the Trickle Down Abuse theory is correct, the shit that starts at the top may change forms but almost always goes downhill, not up. The Federal Government will abuse States, States abuse Counties, Counties abuse Cities, Cities abuse City Employees, City Employees pass the abuse down to the individual. Corporations would start with CEOs abusing upper management, upper management abuses lower management, lower management passes the abuse down to the lowest employee. Churches (not all Christian) could have the highest ranking members of their groups start abuse, and again, it all trickles down. Schools, particularly Public Schools also start from the top and pass it along to the bottm. It seems that Public Schools are a particularly good example. Private Schools would not have the upper eschelon to start the abuse to be passed down to the Principals. Public Schools result in seeing much more abuse above the Principal position and abuse of the Principal (in many forms), which is passed all the way down through the teachers and finally to the students. Its one of many reasons why Public Schools suck so bad. And it starts with the Department of (Mis)Education. There are many similarities in all the situations. Individuals are charged with more and more responsibility and deprived of any authority to handle that responsibility. Students are treated as having zero authority over anyone, even themselves. Postal Workers are demanded to increase their productivity with out the ability to do so. In all of these examples, the only two things that I can come up with where "shit rolls uphill" would be either Unions or School Boards comprised of Parents. Other than that, I cant really come up with any other good examples. Using Lawyers I dont think would fit as the abuse that can be committed by a Lawyer on a higher group, the higher group is usually able to defer the results and just work right around the results. The "uphill" concept is a means of correcting inbalances in any system, particularly that of Government. Thus, the Constitution could be a good example of "abuse going uphill", but since the Constitution is flat out ignored by damn near everyone in Govt, it is barely applicable. If the Constutution is a "Living Document", then it is in a Coma. And just as the Constitution is ignored, the means of self correction and rebalance it almost every situation I can come up with have been destroyed.

Abuse, like shit, most certainly does roll downhill. It snowballs also, until the tiny individuals at the bottom are crushed under the weight of an Avalanche of abuse. Abuse that starts with small things that are well intended, but have very harmful results. Prohibiting smoking in bars has lead to an increase in DUIs due to the distance that people travel to be able to smoke and drink. Outlawing Pot has created a Black Market. Gun Bans prevent people from being able to defend themselves. Both the Department of Education and Common Core are wrecking Education in general.

I think that the Thuggish Behavior is one of many ways to describe Abuse. Abuse which can exist in many forms as well as changes forms through the many layers. And shit certainly does roll downhill.

+Rep to the OP although the article isnt brand new, it will remain applicable for centuries. I for one believe this theory is highly insightful into identifying the core causes of many societal problems.

[enhanced_deficit]

It does trickle down from the top, but it also changes forms. There are many ways to cause harm to an individual. Physical is obvious, and whats happening in Ferguson right now. However, there are so many different forms that it is worth while to enumerate. Emotional Trauma. You know, the kind that occurs in Public School. Wide range of things happen in Public School, but sticking to the ways to cause harm to an individual list, you now have Physical and Emotional. There is also Legal, Reputational, Intellectual, Spiritual, Medical, Food, Restrictional and Financial. The abuse that trickles down from the top often starts as Restrictional and Financial. When it hits other layers through which it trickles down, it can change forms. Like a guy that gets fired from his job and goes home and kicks the family dog. Now Cops do have it better than most private sector employees as far as their paychecs go, but make no mistake, if anyone is not part of the very tippy top 0.01%, then finances are suffering. Cops are mostly immune to Legal harm, but they are doing a really good job of harming their own Reputations through their constant Legal and Physical abuses of their victims.

Abuse doesnt come just from the Cops however as it comes in many different forms. Being denied a permit to open a new business for various reasons, even when the application is valid, yet denied. Another form of abuse can come from a Family Court, where really stupid things end up resulting in the child being taken away from their rightful parents. Remember, we're talking about obvious abuse, so situations like true Child Abuse, which does occur, dont really apply. Still beyond their authority but people arent going to feel bad about taking away someones kid from parents who break their childrens legs over spilled milk. Taxation (Financial) can also be a form of abuse. Sick the IRS on anyone (groups) who did not support Obama in the last election. Another form of abuse would be Employment abuse. This one does consider the Over The Top things that Employers may demand of employees. Not talking about Drug Testing being restrictive of what a person can and cant do at home. If a bartender doesnt upsell at least 20 meals to include alcohol per day, the bartender is written up then terminated. Another form might be to demand employees increase their productivity by 500% when they are already breaking their backs to put out 100%. Right now, there appears to be a lot of demand to enable employers to have ever increasing authority over employees, but it can still wander into the areas of abuse, regardless of validating reasons or excuses. The important thing here to note about abuse of employees is that it also trickles down. People can also be abused Medically. Typically Medical quickly alters from into Financial. Eight Hundred Bucks for a fucking aspirin. Theres also Intellectual Abuse. Things like Propoganda by the MSM. It deprives people of the actual facts and distorts truth into lies that people believe, then act upon. Spiritual Abuse could be like China or certain areas of the Middle East where the open display of religious worship is prohibited based on which beliefs are being expressed and others allowed.

If the Trickle Down Abuse theory is correct, the shit that starts at the top may change forms but almost always goes downhill, not up. The Federal Government will abuse States, States abuse Counties, Counties abuse Cities, Cities abuse City Employees, City Employees pass the abuse down to the individual. Corporations would start with CEOs abusing upper management, upper management abuses lower management, lower management passes the abuse down to the lowest employee. Churches (not all Christian) could have the highest ranking members of their groups start abuse, and again, it all trickles down. Schools, particularly Public Schools also start from the top and pass it along to the bottm. It seems that Public Schools are a particularly good example. Private Schools would not have the upper eschelon to start the abuse to be passed down to the Principals. Public Schools result in seeing much more abuse above the Principal position and abuse of the Principal (in many forms), which is passed all the way down through the teachers and finally to the students. Its one of many reasons why Public Schools suck so bad. And it starts with the Department of (Mis)Education. There are many similarities in all the situations. Individuals are charged with more and more responsibility and deprived of any authority to handle that responsibility. Students are treated as having zero authority over anyone, even themselves. Postal Workers are demanded to increase their productivity with out the ability to do so. In all of these examples, the only two things that I can come up with where "shit rolls uphill" would be either Unions or School Boards comprised of Parents. Other than that, I cant really come up with any other good examples. Using Lawyers I dont think would fit as the abuse that can be committed by a Lawyer on a higher group, the higher group is usually able to defer the results and just work right around the results. The "uphill" concept is a means of correcting inbalances in any system, particularly that of Government. Thus, the Constitution could be a good example of "abuse going uphill", but since the Constitution is flat out ignored by damn near everyone in Govt, it is barely applicable. If the Constutution is a "Living Document", then it is in a Coma. And just as the Constitution is ignored, the means of self correction and rebalance it almost every situation I can come up with have been destroyed.

Abuse, like shit, most certainly does roll downhill. It snowballs also, until the tiny individuals at the bottom are crushed under the weight of an Avalanche of abuse. Abuse that starts with small things that are well intended, but have very harmful results. Prohibiting smoking in bars has lead to an increase in DUIs due to the distance that people travel to be able to smoke and drink. Outlawing Pot has created a Black Market. Gun Bans prevent people from being able to defend themselves. Both the Department of Education and Common Core are wrecking Education in general.

I think that the Thuggish Behavior is one of many ways to describe Abuse. Abuse which can exist in many forms as well as changes forms through the many layers. And shit certainly does roll downhill.

+Rep to the OP although the article isnt brand new, it will remain applicable for centuries. I for one believe this theory is highly insightful into identifying the core causes of many societal problems.

Very good analysis.
This appears to be a universal phenomenon and society's ills cannot be mimimized if not tackled at the top.

[thoughtomator]

It's an effect of the Clinton Precedent, which states that if you're important enough relative to the people to whom you do injury, you can get away with anything.

[enhanced_deficit]

In unrelated news:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7mxePoozVc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7mxePoozVc




September 8th 2014

Former New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin Arrives at Prison to Serve 10 Years

Former New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin arrived at a federal prison in Texas on Monday to begin serving a 10-year sentence for corruption. Nagin arrived at the Texarkana Federal Correction Institution at 11:45 a.m. Monday, according to NBC affiliate WDSU. The facility is a minimum security prison reserved for non-violent white collar criminals. Lou Pearlman, the former producer of boy bands like N-Sync and the Backstreet Boys, is also housed there for money laundering.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/former-new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-arrives-prison-serve-10-n198436

[enhanced_deficit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8fh4VmeuTw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8fh4VmeuTw







And quick round up of today's front page:

NY - Police Shoot, Kill Man Following Domestic Dispute in Brooklyn (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?460863-NY-Police-Shoot-Kill-Man-Following-Domestic-Dispute-in-Brooklyn&)


MI-Remember that little girl that was shot and killed by SWAT cops in Detroit? (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?320802-MI-Remember-that-little-girl-that-was-shot-and-killed-by-SWAT-cops-in-Detroit&)


Indefinitely Holding Prisoners Without Charge or Access to Lawyer... (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?460788-Indefinitely-Holding-Prisoners-Without-Charge-or-Access-to-Lawyer&)


Turning Americans into Snitches for the Police State: ‘See Something, Say Something’ (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?460859-Turning-Americans-into-Snitches-for-the-Police-State-%E2%80%98See-Something-Say-Something%E2%80%99&)


Okra mistaken for pot in man’s garden. Send in the clowns. (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?460842-Okra-mistaken-for-pot-in-man%E2%80%99s-garden-Send-in-the-clowns&)


NY - A barking dog will get you thrown in jail (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?460817-NY-A-barking-dog-will-get-you-thrown-in-jail&)


Dallas Cop Fired After Ignoring Woman's Plea That Her Children Were Being Kidnapped (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?460838-Dallas-Cop-Fired-After-Ignoring-Woman-s-Plea-That-Her-Children-Were-Being-Kidnapped&)

[TheTexan]

I think it started from the bottom.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RubBzkZzpUA

[enhanced_deficit]

I think it started from the bottom.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RubBzkZzpUA

Looks like there is a subliminal message there.

[oyarde]

if they perceive a thug to be in the WH and that there is/will be little to none accountability from top to bottom even if innocent people are harassed/imprisoned/killed without due process of law?

Strictly hypothetical Q.

My guess is that in modern times in US cities it trickles from the bottom up .Thugs commit acts that everyone knows are wrong and are then defended anyway.

[enhanced_deficit]

My guess is that in modern times in US cities it trickles from the bottom up .Thugs commit acts that everyone knows are wrong and are then defended anyway.

And then thugs elect thugs to high offices?

That is also very intersting theory.