This behavior has gotten us where we are

[tod evans]

Politicians and their "new and improved" laws...:mad:

Get a rope!




Utah legislator wants law to put 'fear of God' in people who destroy state's natural wonders

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/11/30/utah-legislator-wants-law-to-put-fear-god-in-people-who-destroy-state-natural/?intcmp=latestnews

SALT LAKE CITY – A state legislator wants to make desecration of Utah's natural geologic wonders punishable by prison and a heavy fine because authorities aren't finding a charge serious enough to use in the case of two former Boy Scout leaders accused of toppling one of the unique rock formations at Goblin Valley State Park.

Rep. Dixon Pitcher, R-Ogden, said "there just isn't much" in state law for use against the October toppling made infamous by a YouTube video. One Scout leader films the other pushing over a mushroom-shaped sandstone pillar and then they and another companion cheer and high-five.

They claimed it might have been ready to fall and kill a visitor. The rock formation they toppled was eroded from sandstone deposited about 170 million years ago, parks officials have said.

"We have nothing to deal with this type of desecration," Pitcher said. "We can deal with graffiti, people who would cut down a tree, who do general vandalism, but we don't have anything to deal with people who actually destroy geologic formations or antiquities in the parks. We have nothing to put the fear of God in them."

It isn't clear whether a garden-variety-level charge of criminal mischief applies to destruction of a natural object. The vandalism law has been used against people who carve graffiti or their names into the arches of southern Utah because officials could derive a value from erasing the damage, Emery County Attorney David Blackwell said.

"This one's different," Blackwell told The Associated Press. "How do you put a price on putting a rock back — and can you put it back?"

Blackwell plans to consult with parks officials who investigated the Oct. 11 toppling and then make a decision the second week of December on possible charges. He wasn't certain what action he might take. Blackwell said he was awaiting delivery of a report from investigators.

The video shot by David Hall shows Glenn Taylor pushing over the boulder. They were stripped of their Boy Scout leadership positions, and both say their video triggered death threats from around the world. Their troop was elsewhere at the state park during the filming, Blackwell said.

"We have now modified Goblin Valley," Hall says on the video since removed from YouTube. "Some little kid was about ready to walk down here and die, and Glenn saved his life by getting the boulder out of the way. So it's all about saving lives here at Goblin Valley. Saving lives, that's what we're about."

No working phone listings could be found Friday for Taylor or Hall.

Previously, Hall has said, "We're extremely sorry for our mistake. We look forward to doing everything we can to make it right and move on."

From the start, parks officials and others doubted the rock formation was at risk of tipping over. It may have been perched that way for much of human history, like hundreds of other goblin-shaped rocks that dot the eroded floor of the state park, Pitcher said.

"We're going to let a Scout leader determine what's loose or falling?" Pitcher said. "They were down there to raise havoc. They weren't protecting the public."

Pitcher said their "unconscionable" act might never have come to anyone's attention if it wasn't shown on YouTube.

"Here you have people who took it upon their own to tip over antiquities, to destroy and desecrate things that are probably millions of years old," Pitcher said. "They're priceless."

[DamianTV]

So now when a person does something a Politician doesnt like, they pass a law about it, then they can go back and charge that person with a crime. Logic doesnt make sense? They do it all the time with Taxes.

[phill4paul]

And by "fear of God", of course, they mean fear of the government.

[asurfaholic]

Because as a Legislature, he IS a god. Don't piss off the gods.

[Anti Federalist]

Pitcher said their "unconscionable" act might never have come to anyone's attention if it wasn't shown on YouTube.

SMMFH

There's so much wrong with this story, I don't even know where to start.

[WM_in_MO]

SMMFH

There's so much wrong with this story, I don't even know where to start.

So the scout leaders just hurried up nature? That's what I see. Apologize and move on.

BUT WAIT. THHIS IS THE GUBMENT WE'RE DEALING WITH

NEW LAW:

All persons deemed to be a threat to my precious will be shot.

[ClydeCoulter]

So now when a person does something a Politician doesnt like, they pass a law about it, then they can go back and charge that person with a crime. Logic doesnt make sense? They do it all the time with Taxes.

No Ex Post Facto?

[Origanalist]

"This one's different," Blackwell told The Associated Press. "How do you put a price on putting a rock back — and can you put it back?"

How did we get here?

(nvrm, I remember)

[jonhowe]

Uh, I agree with this. They destroyed property that was not their own; there should be a punishment for that. Every National and State Park I've ever been to says as much when you enter. I've not been to this one, but I imagine they were told something similar.

A small fine to pay to clear the rubble and a "banned for life" status should suffice.

[JK/SEA]

Sniper towers in this park will stop this disgusting, vile, evil, hates nature attitude.

Kill these fuckers before they destroy my planet.

there....i feel better now.


:rolleyes:

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Rocks are people, too.

[Origanalist]

Sniper towers in this park will stop this disgusting, vile, evil, hates nature attitude.

Kill these fuckers before they destroy my planet.

there....i feel better now.


:rolleyes:

You're way behind the times........http://dronewarsuk.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/predator-firing-missile4.jpg?w=300&h=225

[Carson]

"Utah legislator wants law to put 'fear of God' in people who destroy state's natural wonders"

With a government exemption?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

A small fine to pay to clear the rubble...

Yeah, it's a terrible mess. Would you recommend a paper or plastic litterbag?





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYFD18BwmJ4

[JK/SEA]

You're way behind the times........http://dronewarsuk.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/predator-firing-missile4.jpg?w=300&h=225

exactly.

[Origanalist]

Yeah, it's a terrible mess. Would you recommend a paper or plastic litterbag?





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYFD18BwmJ4


What we need is a new government agency to facilitate the reconstruction of our priceless rocks when they are destroyed by these terrorists.

A trillion dollars aught to get things started.

[Ronin Truth]

I think that it could be reasonably argued that voting is the behavior that has gotten us where we are.

[heavenlyboy34]

Uh, I agree with this. They destroyed property that was not their own; there should be a punishment for that. Every National and State Park I've ever been to says as much when you enter. I've not been to this one, but I imagine they were told something similar.

A small fine to pay to clear the rubble and a "banned for life" status should suffice.
Incorrect. Public property, by definition, "belongs" to everyone (IOW, socialized). That's why you have to pay for it even if you never use it. Lacking clear ownership, punishment is always going to be random and irrational.

ETA: It was the "Progressive" movement that gave us these socialist parks, btw. (especiallly T. Roosevelt)

[Dr.3D]

Rocks are piled up and remain that way as the ground around them erodes away and this is considered "normal."
Some of the rocks fall from uneven erosion. This is "normal" though so nobody gets excited about that.
Other rocks fall because ants dug under their foundation and the earth crumbled away. This is "normal" though so nobody gets excited about it.
Other rocks fall because birds landed on them an disturbed their balance. This is "normal" though so nobody bats and eye about it.
The wind topples some of the rocks. This is "normal" though so nobody gets excited about it.
Finally a couple of humans push one over. This is declared "not normal" and people want to raise hell about it.

It's about time we started including the acts of humans as being part of whats "normal".

[heavenlyboy34]

I think that it could be reasonably argued that voting is the behavior that has gotten us where we are.+rep

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

And by "fear of God", of course, they mean fear of the government.


Because as a Legislature, he IS a god. Don't piss off the gods.


Ya damn right.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Dean_Franklin_-_06.04.03_Mount_Rushmore_Monument_%28by-sa%29-3_new.jpg

[heavenlyboy34]

Rocks are piled up and remain that way as the ground around them erodes away and this is considered "normal."
Some of the rocks fall from uneven erosion. This is "normal" though so nobody gets excited about that.
Other rocks fall because ants dug under their foundation and the earth crumbled away. This is "normal" though so nobody gets excited about it.
Other rocks fall because birds landed on them an disturbed their balance. This is "normal" though so nobody bats and eye about it.
The wind topples some of the rocks. This is "normal" though so nobody gets excited about it.
Finally a couple of humans push one over. This is declared "not normal" and people want to raise hell about it.

It's about time we started including the acts of humans as being part of whats "normal".
Hey! That's too logical! You can't do that in Amerika! ;) :(

[Anti Federalist]

Pitcher said their "unconscionable" act might never have come to anyone's attention if it wasn't shown on YouTube.

After further consideration, fuck 'em.

Let the state turn these doofuses into hamburger.

I'll bet a month's pay that at some point in time the words "what have you got to hide, if you're not doing anything wrong?" passed their lips.

[Dr.3D]

Ya damn right.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Dean_Franklin_-_06.04.03_Mount_Rushmore_Monument_%28by-sa%29-3_new.jpg

How come the only people I hear making any noise about the mess in that picture are the Native Americans? Yeah, that right there is an act that makes those two men knocking over a rock look like an act of nature. This is far from being an act of nature , but the very same people who are making the most noise about those two men think this kind of activity is just fine.

A government defaced what was normal into a non normal monument to the politics of man. It's a good think what's in that picrure hadn't been done by a private person, the government would have locked him up.

[heavenlyboy34]

How come the only people I hear making any noise about the mess in that picture are the Native Americans? Yeah, that right there is an act that makes those two men knocking over a rock look like an act of nature. This is far from being an act of nature , but the very same people who are making the most noise about those two men think this kind of activity is just fine.

A government defaced what was normal into a non normal monument to the politics of man. It's a good think what's in that picrure hadn't been done by a private person, the government would have locked him up.
That thing should be on the top (or near it...probably the White House and Capitol Building first) of the list of State religion icons to be destroyed.

[oyarde]

How many Goblins do they have in Goblin Valley ? Anyone seen one ?

[tod evans]

And how do you envision this fine new piece of legislation being wielded by overzealous prosecutors?

Just think of all the "jobs" that this could create...

:mad:

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

How come the only people I hear making any noise about the mess in that picture are the Native Americans?

As long as we keep rocket launchers away from Indians, Mt Rushmore will stay safe. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?434390-quot-The-right-to-bear-arms-quot-where-does-this-limit-begin&p=5324979&viewfull=1#post5324979

[Dr.3D]

As long as we keep rocket launchers away from Indians, Mt Rushmore will stay safe. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?434390-quot-The-right-to-bear-arms-quot-where-does-this-limit-begin&p=5324979&viewfull=1#post5324979
I get the impression there are more than "Indians" that would like to see that mess get cleaned up.

[Carson]

Rocks are piled up and remain that way as the ground around them erodes away and this is considered "normal."
Some of the rocks fall from uneven erosion. This is "normal" though so nobody gets excited about that.
Other rocks fall because ants dug under their foundation and the earth crumbled away. This is "normal" though so nobody gets excited about it.
Other rocks fall because birds landed on them an disturbed their balance. This is "normal" though so nobody bats and eye about it.
The wind topples some of the rocks. This is "normal" though so nobody gets excited about it.
Finally a couple of humans push one over. This is declared "not normal" and people want to raise hell about it.

It's about time we started including the acts of humans as being part of whats "normal".

Really. All of the counterfeiting has sold away our nature.

We used to be allowed to be part of it and were rewarded for doing so.

[pcosmar]

And by "fear of God", of course, they mean fear of the government.

The State as God.

to be expected. :(

[pcosmar]

Uh, I agree with this. They destroyed property that was not their own

They destroyed nothing.
The rock remains..
they removed the threat of it falling, which it would have done anyway.

[tod evans]

They destroyed nothing.
The rock remains..
they removed the threat of it falling, which it would have done anyway.

I kicked a rock over the edge of the bluff last time I went to the Nat. Forest....

What'll that cost me with this new legislation?

6 months, $2500.00 fine and 3 years probation.....

[heavenlyboy34]

I kicked a rock over the edge of the bluff last time I went to the Nat. Forest....

What'll that cost me with this new legislation?

6 months, $2500.00 fine and 3 years probation.....
I did similar things at the Grand Canyon and the Petrified Forest.

[mad cow]

I think that all of the felons that built Hoover Dam are probably dead,but many of those who dynamited tunnels in billion year old rocks for State and Federal highways are still around to put the fear of God into.

And how about that huge new NSA complex in the same State?Any billion year old rocks disturbed building it?
Is Rep. Dixon Pitcher gonna put the fear of God into the NSA?

[tod evans]

I did similar things at the Grand Canyon and the Petrified Forest.

Reported. ;)

[heavenlyboy34]

Reported. ;)
People keep reporting me, but They don't do anything. Maybe They're building a dossier about me or something...:eek: Maybe they think I'm a Jedi involved in teh Rebel Alliance...:toady:

[Dr.3D]

Would they lock up the people who did this?
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2029/2451999025_b91ef5eae8_z.jpg

[acptulsa]

To some degree, it's true. That kind of behavior is part of the problem.

But mostly, sitting in front of the television while the media points cameras at mountain-from-molehill makers like Dixon Pitcher is the antisocial behavior that has led us to tyranny...

[pcosmar]

I did similar things at the Grand Canyon and the Petrified Forest.

I would not admit to skipping stones at this point. :(


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKxdqdrifWk

[heavenlyboy34]

I would not admit to skipping stones at this point. :(


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKxdqdrifWk
I never was too good at that. :/ I need a nice, almost perfectly flat stone to even get a good series started. :P

[bunklocoempire]

"We have nothing to deal with this type of desecration," Pitcher said. "We can deal with graffiti, people who would cut down a tree, who do general vandalism, but we don't have anything to deal with people who actually destroy geologic formations or antiquities in the parks. We have nothing to put the fear of God in them."

Desecration? Depends on if the State or an individual is doing the "desecrating". What happens if you don't "desecrate" some rocks?


http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2002/Sep/24/br/br02p.html
A circuit court judge ruled this afternoon that the state is liable for the 1999 Sacred Falls Mother's Day rockslide that killed eight people and left about 50 injured. Circuit Judge Dexter Del Rosario ruled in favor of about 30 people suing the state in what was one of the worst natural disasters in Hawai'i history.

Doh! That rock-people collective relationship went bad.

Fuck rocks -and fuck the people who use force to promote a collective rock-person relationship.

Rocks vs. people with people siding with rocks? :rolleyes: Why am I not surprised?

[Ronin Truth]

I never was too good at that. :/ I need a nice, almost perfectly flat stone to even get a good series started. :P

The success secret is a flat side arm throw.;)

[Dr.3D]

The success secret is a flat side arm throw.;)
Sounds like you have practiced some.... reported!

Don't people understand, if everybody did that, the lake would be full of rocks?
Thing is, not everybody is going to do that.

[pcosmar]

How many Goblins do they have in Goblin Valley ? Anyone seen one ?

http://www.freemars.org/mnfan/MarsSociety/2006/MDRS/Crew42/Jan-27-2006/GQ-crew.jpg

[Dr.3D]

http://www.freemars.org/mnfan/MarsSociety/2006/MDRS/Crew42/Jan-27-2006/GQ-crew.jpg

Starfleet refugees?

[Ronin Truth]

Sounds like you have practiced some.... reported!

Don't people understand, if everybody did that, the lake would be full of rocks?
Thing is, not everybody is going to do that.

You say that like it would be a bad thing.:confused: Or maybe just a rocky wet lake island.

[Origanalist]

Sounds like you have practiced some.... reported!

Don't people understand, if everybody did that, the lake would be full of rocks?
Thing is, not everybody is going to do that.

And the rivers would over flow their banks and change course. :eek:

If everybody in Guam threw a rock to the other side of the island it would tip over.

[Dr.3D]

You say that like it would be a bad thing.:confused: Or maybe just a rocky wet lake island.
I'm going on what I was told as a kid when I picked a flower from the garden. They said, "If everybody picked a flower, there wouldn't be any." I though to myself, "But there would be a large number of people who had a flower."

[pcosmar]

Starfleet refugees?

You just had to ask.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtHM77IRkus

:p

[Ronin Truth]

I'm going on what I was told as a kid when I picked a flower from the garden. They said, "If everybody picked a flower, there wouldn't be any." I though to myself, "But there would be a large number of people who had a flower."

:cool: Works for me!

[Dr.3D]

You just had to ask.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtHM77IRkus

:p
LOL, well, I was close. :D

[heavenlyboy34]

The success secret is a flat side arm throw.;)
:D I will try this the next time I have access to a lake. (just don't report me, k?)

[heavenlyboy34]

And the rivers would over flow their banks and change course. :eek:

If everybody in Guam threw a rock to the other side of the island it would tip over.
Sounds like a purposely defective design. Nature is reported.

[Ronin Truth]

:D I will try this the next time I have access to a lake. (just don't report me, k?)

k, who would I possibly report you to?

It's a skill set every boy should have ..... heavenly or otherwise.

[Ender]

I was pretty disgusted with these guys when I first heard about this. Goblin Valley is a very unique one-of-a-kind place; huge boulders balance on the top of "rock necks" and have done so for centuries.

The smart thing to do would have been to report a perceived danger and let the park people check it out and, if it was a threat, let them handle it.

That said- this government idiot needs to take a hike.

[Dr.3D]

k, who would I possibly report you to?

It's a skill set every boy should have ..... heavenly or otherwise.
Report him to Sheriff Andy....

His kid throws stones in lakes too. Here is the video evidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lli9ABUFZCU

[Ronin Truth]

Report him to Sheriff Andy....

His kid throws stones in lakes too. Here is the video evidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lli9ABUFZCU


And that "kid" is now a world famous movie director. ( In part because he knew how to skip rocks as a child )

[heavenlyboy34]

k, who would I possibly report you to?

It's a skill set every boy should have ..... heavenly or otherwise.
You don't know? :eek: I thought it was common knowlege. This guy: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Rand_Beers_official_portrait.jpg
Or Big Sister:
http://www.mrconservative.com/files/2013/07/janet-napolitano.jpg

[Ronin Truth]

Yeech! Not my kind of folks AT ALL, ptooie. gag.

[asurfaholic]

I would not admit to skipping stones at this point. :(



I freely admit that I break laws I do not agree with.

No victim, no crime. Fuck the out of control system. Come get me

[heavenlyboy34]

I freely admit that I break laws I do not agree with.

No victim, no crime. Fuck the out of control system. Come get me
Reported.

[jonhowe]

Incorrect. Public property, by definition, "belongs" to everyone (IOW, socialized). That's why you have to pay for it even if you never use it. Lacking clear ownership, punishment is always going to be random and irrational.

ETA: It was the "Progressive" movement that gave us these socialist parks, btw. (especiallly T. Roosevelt)

It belongs to everyone. Not just them. My room mates in college and I shared plates; I wasn't allowed to smash them up. These rock formations are the PURPOSE of the park, and they belong to everyone, not just these 2 losers. They have damaged the park permanently by their actions. That should be a crime.

Not everything from the progressive movement is automatically a bad idea. I think national parks are (or should be) one of the primary functions of government.

[thoughtomator]

This is the kind of thing that should be dealt with privately. Anonymous citizens tossing the two jokers down the side of a natural wonder would be poetic and appropriate.

[jonhowe]

Rocks are piled up and remain that way as the ground around them erodes away and this is considered "normal."
Some of the rocks fall from uneven erosion. This is "normal" though so nobody gets excited about that.
Other rocks fall because ants dug under their foundation and the earth crumbled away. This is "normal" though so nobody gets excited about it.
Other rocks fall because birds landed on them an disturbed their balance. This is "normal" though so nobody bats and eye about it.
The wind topples some of the rocks. This is "normal" though so nobody gets excited about it.
Finally a couple of humans push one over. This is declared "not normal" and people want to raise hell about it.

It's about time we started including the acts of humans as being part of whats "normal".

Disagree.

We have the power to destroy the planet. We have great power and should act responsibly.

[DamianTV]

I freely admit that I break laws I do not agree with.

No victim, no crime. Fuck the out of control system. Come get me

The victimless law crimes I just flat out ignore completely. If it just so happens that I am in compliance with some Law, it is not Obedience to the Law that explains why I am somehow in compliance.

The choices that I make are no longer determined by what is allowed and what is prohibited by the Law, but of my own judgements of responsibility to my fellow men. And nothing will piss the Law off more than complete and total disobedience, even if it is for the benefit or respect of others.

[Ronin Truth]

Disagree.

We have the power to destroy the planet. We have great power and should act responsibly. :rolleyes:

I wonder how many of the other 99+% extinct species the planet has seen come and go might have also thought that? We'll be dust and long forgotten and the planet will still be here. Lose the arrogance.....we ain't that great nor important.

[Dr.3D]

Disagree.

We have the power to destroy the planet. We have great power and should act responsibly.

Go hug a tree.

Myself, I'll burn one to keep warm.

[jonhowe]

:rolleyes:

I wonder how many of the other 99+% extinct species the planet has seen come and go might have also thought that? We'll be dust and long forgotten and the planet will still be here. Lose the arrogance.....we ain't that great nor important.

Did the dinosaurs have the bomb?

We don't have the right to destroy life on earth. We DO have the power to do it, though.





Go hug a tree.

Myself, I'll burn one to keep warm.


Nothing wrong with sustainable use of wood.

Why has it become a matter of pride to dislike environmentalism? National parks or no, if someone puts toxic gases into the air that YOU breathe, you should have some kind of recourse. If someone destroys the environment in which you live, it should be a crime.

[Dr.3D]

Did the dinosaurs have the bomb?

We don't have the right to destroy life on earth. We DO have the power to do it, though.







Nothing wrong with sustainable use of wood.

Why has it become a matter of pride to dislike environmentalism? National parks or no, if someone puts toxic gases into the air that YOU breathe, you should have some kind of recourse. If someone destroys the environment in which you live, it should be a crime.

Because it's being used as a political tool to spread the wealth. Rob from the rich to give to the poor. How do we keep the politics out of environmentalism?

[Ronin Truth]

Did the dinosaurs have the bomb?

Nope, nor a clue. The solar system took them out.

We don't have the right to destroy life on earth. We DO have the power to do it, though.

We have no gamma ray bursts, killer asteroids, super volcanoes, super massive black holes, etc. We're playing with lady fingers fire crackers comparatively.:p

Hubris kills!

[heavenlyboy34]

Disagree.

We have the power to destroy the planet. We have great power and should act responsibly.

No we don't. Even if "we" tried, we couldn't destroy the planet. Your claim is quite arrogant. The earth has seen a lot worse than us, my friend. And it will be here lonnnng after humans go extinct. Paranoia about the environment is a problem invented by over-privileged, under-worked, pretentious douchebags with too much time on their hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c

[Lindsey]

People need to stop posting videos of themselves doing stupid things on youtube.

[jonhowe]

Hubris kills!



Your argument is like saying that there is nothing wrong with murder because everyone eventually dies. It's hubris to think that our finite lives have value, I guess.

[jonhowe]

Because it's being used as a political tool to spread the wealth. Rob from the rich to give to the poor. How do we keep the politics out of environmentalism?

It doesn't NEED to, though. The environment can be protected without infringing on liberties. In fact, I think if basic liberties were respected the environment would be better off. The real money is in dirty energy. If governments stopped supporting oil, the price would rise and renewable energy would become a viable free market alternative.

[jonhowe]

No we don't. Even if "we" tried, we couldn't destroy the planet. Your claim is quite arrogant. The earth has seen a lot worse than us, my friend. And it will be here lonnnng after humans go extinct. Paranoia about the environment is a problem invented by over-privileged, under-worked, pretentious douchebags with too much time on their hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c

George Carlin is funny. 17,000 nukes can still destroy the planet, though.


We didn't even try, and yet we've already destroyed a huge portion of the biodiversity of the planet. Just look at the middle of the country. The prairie ecosystem is all but destroyed. Go on google maps and look over the rainforests in Brazil. It's sad.

[heavenlyboy34]

George Carlin is funny. 17,000 nukes can still destroy the planet, though.


We didn't even try, and yet we've already destroyed a huge portion of the biodiversity of the planet. Just look at the middle of the country. The prairie ecosystem is all but destroyed. Go on google maps and look over the rainforests in Brazil. It's sad.
That would've happened at some point even if humans didn't exist. Read a good book about entropy, biology, and geology, plz. You're making yourself look terribly ignorant and foolish here.

[Ronin Truth]

Your argument is like saying that there is nothing wrong with murder because everyone eventually dies. It's hubris to think that our finite lives have value, I guess. Nope and nope, care to guess again?

[jonhowe]

That would've happened at some point even if humans didn't exist. Read a good book about entropy, biology, and geology, plz. You're making yourself look terribly ignorant and foolish here.

The subjects listed are of great interest to me.

I am not saying that the american prairie or the rainforest would have survived for billions of years if left undisturbed. I am not saying that the earth exists in one form forever. I AM saying that we are destroying the planet in ways that are needless, difficult (if not impossible) to reverse, and which will hurt future generations physically and economically. Beyond what we do on a day to day basis, we also have the power to do MUCH more, on purpose or by accident. Just look at the economic activity in the chernobyl exclusion zone.

[jonhowe]

Nope and nope, care to guess again?

No thanks. I was pretty spot on, actually.

[heavenlyboy34]

The subjects listed are of great interest to me.

I am not saying that the american prairie or the rainforest would have survived for billions of years if left undisturbed. I am not saying that the earth exists in one form forever. I AM saying that we are destroying the planet in ways that are needless, difficult (if not impossible) to reverse, and which will hurt future generations physically and economically. Beyond what we do on a day to day basis, we also have the power to do MUCH more, on purpose or by accident. Just look at the economic activity in the chernobyl exclusion zone.
Of course people can cause a certain amount of damage. But in the grand scheme of things, human activity has had virtually no impact. (remember, when we discuss this kind of thing, we have to think in terms of millions and billions of years. Judging things relative to our very brief lifespans provides a very limited understanding.)

[Ender]

That would've happened at some point even if humans didn't exist. Read a good book about entropy, biology, and geology, plz. You're making yourself look terribly ignorant and foolish here.

So what?

Does that make it good to destroy the beauty around us? Tip over and ruin the incredible rocks of Goblin Canyon, that may never exist again? Kill lions for sport? Destroy the buffalo or the black rhino? Upset the ecosystem by killing the gray wolf?

Government does not belong in environmental issues, but as human beings we should cherish and preserve the beauty and astonishing things of nature around us, as much as possible.

The ignorant and foolish to me are those that don't give a crap about their surroundings and leave nothing of beauty or value for future generations.

[Ronin Truth]

No thanks. I was pretty spot on, actually.
You just keep on thinking that. ;) The light bulb will flick on eventually, I predict.

[Ronin Truth]

So what?

Does that make it good to destroy the beauty around us? Tip over and ruin the incredible rocks of Goblin Canyon, that may never exist again? Kill lions for sport? Destroy the buffalo or the black rhino? Upset the ecosystem by killing the gray wolf?

Government does not belong in environmental issues, but as human beings we should cherish and preserve the beauty and astonishing things of nature around us, as much as possible.

The ignorant and foolish to me are those that don't give a crap about their surroundings and leave nothing of beauty or value for future generations.

Do you mourn all of the extinct species or just the cute, pretty or beautiful ones? Just curious.

[Ender]

Do you mourn all of the extinct species or just the cute, pretty or beautiful ones? Just curious.


As a kid I was a para-paleontologist. :cool:

Does that answer your question?

[Ronin Truth]

As a kid I was a para-paleontologist. :cool:

Does that answer your question? Probably.

Thanks.

[heavenlyboy34]

So what?

Does that make it good to destroy the beauty around us? Tip over and ruin the incredible rocks of Goblin Canyon, that may never exist again? Kill lions for sport? Destroy the buffalo or the black rhino? Upset the ecosystem by killing the gray wolf?

Government does not belong in environmental issues, but as human beings we should cherish and preserve the beauty and astonishing things of nature around us, as much as possible.

The ignorant and foolish to me are those that don't give a crap about their surroundings and leave nothing of beauty or value for future generations.

No. You confuse "is" and "ought". I made a value-free statement there. ETA: sport hunting actually helps animals thrive. If you really want to save the species you mentioned, find a way to eat them. Then they will be more highly regarded and better cared for out of rational self-interest, both as animals generally and as food specifically. :)

[jonhowe]

Do you mourn all of the extinct species or just the cute, pretty or beautiful ones? Just curious.

Nature is beautiful in how everything interconnects and relates. Even slime mold is beautiful, in the grand scheme of things. Kill all the slime mold, and we have problems.