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Brian4Liberty
11-20-2013, 11:52 AM
Bad news for corporatist lobbyists?

It's a combination of unemployment and underemployment. At least a Computer Science graduate can figure out how to run the register at Starbucks....



No shortage? New STEM data could derail entrepreneurs’ push for immigration changes

New research on the labor market for science and technology graduates poses a threat to the lobbying efforts of business owners and entrepreneurs, many of whom want Congress to let more highly skilled workers into the United States.

One of their main arguments is that the country is not producing enough native-born workers in STEM fields — referring to science, technology, engineering and mathematics — to keep pace with surging demand from the private sector. Congress should therefore ease immigration restrictions, they argue, in order to help new and expanding businesses fill the void with foreign workers.

However, a growing collection of research paints a starkly different picture of the STEM landscape in the U.S. The latest study comes from the Economic Policy Institute, a left-leaning think tank, which this week published a report suggesting the skills gap is a myth.

The EPI study found that the United States has ‘more than a sufficient supply of workers available to work in STEM occupations.’ Basic dynamics of supply and demand would dictate that if there were a domestic labor shortage, wages should have risen. Instead, researchers found, they’ve been flat, with many Americans holding STEM degrees unable to enter the field and a sharply higher share of foreign workers taking jobs in the information technology industry.

The study showed that only half of students graduating in STEM fields from U.S. universities find jobs in their respective fields of expertise. In one instance, nearly a third of computer science graduates who did not enter the industry said jobs were not available — echoing complaints from many American graduates that a flood of foreign workers has crippled their job prospects after college.
...
“If you have a college degree in engineering, and you can’t find a job in engineering, you’re not going to be unemployed,” Eisenbery said, noting that being employed doesn’t necessarily mean graduates are using their training or earning the type of salaries historically associated with their degrees. “There are lots of other things you can do for work, and you will do them—you aren’t just going to sit at home on the couch.”

More:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/on-small-business/no-shortage-new-stem-data-could-derail-entrepreneurs-push-for-immigration-changes/2013/04/26/75aa5baa-adcf-11e2-a986-eec837b1888b_story.html

angelatc
11-20-2013, 11:58 AM
Why would US companies prefer to import and hire foreign workers?

AFPVet
11-20-2013, 12:05 PM
Why would US companies prefer to import and hire foreign workers?

They're probably cheaper :confused: It's not just about outsourcing anymore... insourcing is also costing Americans jobs.

angelatc
11-20-2013, 12:07 PM
They're probably cheaper :confused: It's not just about outsourcing anymore... insourcing is also costing Americans jobs.

So this is going to turn into a Libertarian vs Republican immigration debate. Just wanted to be sure.

Team Red here!

tod evans
11-20-2013, 12:07 PM
Subsidies and deductions play a part too...

Philhelm
11-20-2013, 12:07 PM
Why would US companies prefer to import and hire foreign workers?

Power over the employee. While a company is required to pay the costs of obtaining a work visa, the nonimmigrant is only authorized to work for the company associated with the visa. The only way the nonimmigrant employee can terminate their employment with the sponsoring company is to leave the United States, or eventually, obtain an Employment Authorization Card or a Permanent Resident Card.

Philhelm
11-20-2013, 12:12 PM
Obtaining a work visa is like playing a game. The sponsoring company will have the visa application denied if it can be proven that a qualified U.S. candidate had applied for the position. There are rules on how the company is to advertise the position, and they will do screwy things like post a midnight radio add and strategically post other forms of advertisement hoping that a U.S. citizen does not apply. Then the company will cry to the government about how they cannot find qualified American workers. It should be noted that the employers must provide a minimum income, which is the "prevailing wage" for the specific position being applied for.

amy31416
11-20-2013, 12:24 PM
Why would US companies prefer to import and hire foreign workers?

Cheaper, better educated, not as lazy and less of a sense of being owed something.

But, it's the corporation's choice--if that's what works best for them.

Brian4Liberty
11-20-2013, 12:25 PM
Why would US companies prefer to import and hire foreign workers?

Multiple reasons.

One of the main reasons, and the one that is most hidden, is that most hiring is now being done by people who came over in the past two decades on a Visa themselves. They only hire their own, for the most part. They want to hire and bring over family, friends, people from their University, people from their city or country. American resumes are discarded. They will report up the management chain that they can not find anyone (qualified) to hire, but they will have a stack of resumes of the "best and brightest" that they could hire tomorrow, if only there were more Visas.

erowe1
11-20-2013, 12:26 PM
The OP looks like an argument for more immigration, not against it.

Brian4Liberty
11-20-2013, 12:28 PM
Cheaper, better educated, not as lazy and less of a sense of being owed something.

But, it's the corporation's choice--if that's what works best for them.

Uh, not really. And if you are talking about actual productivity, that's a big issue too.

Brian4Liberty
11-20-2013, 12:31 PM
The OP looks like an argument for more immigration, not against it.

Sure. Put American Computer Science grads to work at Starbucks and Home Depot, and the rest of the people can go on food stamps and welfare.

DamianTV
11-20-2013, 12:31 PM
US Education has become Indoctrination which is not about Learning. Its a meat grinder that chews up the best and spits out the worst. Our continued educational system is one of the most expensive in the world (yay #1, or close to it) yet places Obedience and Liberalism at its core values over the information people are supposedly taught. At this rate, they may just as well start charging $50 bucks for anything on the dollar menu. Apparently, we've become accustomed to paying way more than full price and getting garbage in return.

Then we wonder why companies look at graduates and make claims that they simply can not find qualified workers. Double down with a touch of corporate greed who wants superstar Ph D's at minimum wage prices. And introduce the Global Economy where people living here have to compete with Robots, Automation, and people in other countries willing and able to do the same job for a buck an hour, or a day. Add in a bunch of selfish stock holders who care only about their profit margins and find any business practice is acceptable as long as their stocks go up up up in value. Top it all off with a criminal Central Banking Cartel that not only shows favoritism to the Global Elite, but flat out sets the stage for what any business can do.

Just a touch of NSA and violating the Worlds Trust by spying on everyone, period (except for the IMF, hmm, how about that) where no one even wants any technology spit out by the United States because it has built in back doors required by law. Wonder why International Non US based companies dont send business our way. Then wonder why our Unemployment Rate is really around 25% for those that are willing and able and WANT to work. Corrupt the Govt, and see that number drop to 8% because they exclude everyone possible. MSM only typically reports on the U6 (people collecting unemployment benefits) vs the U3 (total people that are able and want to work).

Take that whole broke on their ass percentage of the population, and make it a crime to be poor by making it illegal to not have Health Insurance, which comes at the tremendous cost not only financially, but in terms of Jobs as well. Obamacare isnt just a straw that broke a camels back, its more like a fucking sledgehammer being swung as hard as possible by Superman. Then wonder why STEM graduates cant find tech jobs and conclude that there are almost none.

amy31416
11-20-2013, 12:34 PM
Uh, not really. And if you are talking about actual productivity, that's a big issue too.

Not in my experience.

erowe1
11-20-2013, 12:35 PM
Sure. Put American Computer Science grads to work at Starbucks and Home Depot, and the rest of the people can go on food stamps and welfare.

If companies prefer to hire foreigners in computer science fields, then that proves there's a demand for that foreign labor that would not be met without more immigration. What do you want? Have the government restrict immigration so that companies are forced to hire the American computer programmers over the foreign ones they prefer?

Brian4Liberty
11-20-2013, 12:47 PM
Not in my experience.

Your mileage will vary. Industries and even individual Departments vary greatly.

But that brings up an interesting point. Knowing a few, highly qualified, good workers doesn't mean that can be extrapolated to every imported worker, especially when bringing people over in bulk.

Let's look at a different example. It is popular, and nearly taken for granted that Americans are "lazy". Saying that the imported workers are "not lazy" implies by comparison that Americans are. So if there was an example of a hard working, highly trained American worker, can that be extrapolated to all Americans?

AFPVet
11-20-2013, 12:49 PM
Well, if U.S. grads are willing to work for less money, that might curb the insourcing. It sucks right now, but companies are trying to survive too... they go for the lowest bidder just like government contracts.

Brian4Liberty
11-20-2013, 12:50 PM
If companies prefer to hire foreigners in computer science fields, then that proves there's a demand for that foreign labor that would not be met without more immigration. What do you want? Have the government restrict immigration so that companies are forced to hire the American computer programmers over the foreign ones they prefer?

STEM include Mathematics. Where was thread about welfare recipients doing the math and finding that welfare and food stamps pay better than working? STEM graduates should be able to do that same math, and do it faster. Welfare and food stamps for all!

Danke
11-20-2013, 01:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

amy31416
11-20-2013, 01:21 PM
Your mileage will vary. Industries and even individual Departments vary greatly.

But that brings up an interesting point. Knowing a few, highly qualified, good workers doesn't mean that can be extrapolated to every imported worker, especially when bringing people over in bulk.

Let's look at a different example. It is popular, and nearly taken for granted that Americans are "lazy". Saying that the imported workers are "not lazy" implies by comparison that Americans are. So if there was an example of a hard working, highly trained American worker, can that be extrapolated to all Americans?

If I can't extrapolate, neither can you.

I had two jobs with a lot of foreigners and went to college/grad school with a lot of them as well. I can only recall one person who wasn't a harder worker than most Americans, and she was some sort of Hindu princess type.

My experience, my opinion. Your experience, your opinion.

Ender
11-20-2013, 01:30 PM
US Education has become Indoctrination which is not about Learning. Its a meat grinder that chews up the best and spits out the worst. Our continued educational system is one of the most expensive in the world (yay #1, or close to it) yet places Obedience and Liberalism at its core values over the information people are supposedly taught. At this rate, they may just as well start charging $50 bucks for anything on the dollar menu. Apparently, we've become accustomed to paying way more than full price and getting garbage in return.

Then we wonder why companies look at graduates and make claims that they simply can not find qualified workers. Double down with a touch of corporate greed who wants superstar Ph D's at minimum wage prices. And introduce the Global Economy where people living here have to compete with Robots, Automation, and people in other countries willing and able to do the same job for a buck an hour, or a day. Add in a bunch of selfish stock holders who care only about their profit margins and find any business practice is acceptable as long as their stocks go up up up in value. Top it all off with a criminal Central Banking Cartel that not only shows favoritism to the Global Elite, but flat out sets the stage for what any business can do.

Just a touch of NSA and violating the Worlds Trust by spying on everyone, period (except for the IMF, hmm, how about that) where no one even wants any technology spit out by the United States because it has built in back doors required by law. Wonder why International Non US based companies dont send business our way. Then wonder why our Unemployment Rate is really around 25% for those that are willing and able and WANT to work. Corrupt the Govt, and see that number drop to 8% because they exclude everyone possible. MSM only typically reports on the U6 (people collecting unemployment benefits) vs the U3 (total people that are able and want to work).

Take that whole broke on their ass percentage of the population, and make it a crime to be poor by making it illegal to not have Health Insurance, which comes at the tremendous cost not only financially, but in terms of Jobs as well. Obamacare isnt just a straw that broke a camels back, its more like a fucking sledgehammer being swung as hard as possible by Superman. Then wonder why STEM graduates cant find tech jobs and conclude that there are almost none.

Well said.

What many do not realize is that the college degree was invented for those who could not "do the do". The advanced learner/artist/technician used to be the amateur; the degree came along for those who could not compete.

Now it is used to further indoctrinate the young to become compliant factory workers. Most grads do not work in their field of study. The degree just helps you get an interview with a company- doesn't matter if the degree is in underwater basket weaving.

The good news is that many are starting to wake up to the nonsense of the "education" system. Learning is a marvelous thing but you don't need to sit in a classroom to learn.

Brian4Liberty
11-20-2013, 01:36 PM
(Not picking on Amy here!)

Usually I wouldn't go into this much detail. I am not naming the very well known tech companies where this occurred, and it may only fully make sense to IT people. This was the situation at two companies, and it was just prior to SOX (Sarbanes–Oxley Act). Simply, SOX was about accounting fraud, and subsequently impacted IT security practices.

These shops were 100% imported workers from India. The following practices came with them.

- Database security: Database passwords were hard-coded into code. This creates many problems, beyond security. To make things easier, the all-access database password was the same in all environments: Development, a variety of Testing and Training instances, and Production. This made it easier to move code around between environments, pretty much at will. Which brings us to the next issue. (Production might have three database user/password combinations. One for DBAs, one for applications with full privileges, one read-only).

- Source Code Control: Didn't exist. Any developer could pull code from ANY environment, and move it back to ANY environment. Code was duplicated everywhere, including many places created by individual developers. Little to no coordination between programmers or different groups. Experienced programmers know the utter disasters that this leads to. Re-introduction of bugs was common, almost expected. One might almost think that this was a make-work strategy.

So there it is. A couple of examples of the best and brightest. Not lazy? These practices are the definition of lazy from a technical standpoint. Quality? Experienced? Competent? Not really. But they could talk a good game to those with less technical knowledge. Baffle them with bullshit.

Brian4Liberty
11-20-2013, 01:41 PM
If I can't extrapolate, neither can you.

I had two jobs with a lot of foreigners and went to college/grad school with a lot of them as well. I can only recall one person who wasn't a harder worker than most Americans, and she was some sort of Hindu princess type.

My experience, my opinion. Your experience, your opinion.

Like I said, industries vary greatly. The vast majority of these Visas are for IT developers. Other industries are far more discriminating (in terms of evaluating workers).

Sample size is also important.

Brian4Liberty
11-20-2013, 01:43 PM
Well said.

What many do not realize is that the college degree was invented for those who could not "do the do". The advanced learner/artist/technician used to be the amateur; the degree came along for those who could not compete.

Now it is used to further indoctrinate the young to become compliant factory workers. Most grads do not work in their field of study. The degree just helps you get an interview with a company- doesn't matter if the degree is in underwater basket weaving.

The good news is that many are starting to wake up to the nonsense of the "education" system. Learning is a marvelous thing but you don't need to sit in a classroom to learn.

I would add that there are Computer Science programs in the US that are the best in the world. There are also quite a few that aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

amy31416
11-20-2013, 01:53 PM
Like I said, industries vary greatly. The vast majority of these Visas are for IT developers. Other industries are far more discriminating (in terms of evaluating workers).

Sample size is also important.

You base your opinion on one industry dominated by one ethnic group that everyone knows is terrible in. I'm talking about Middle Easterners, Mexicans, Asians, Indians, etc. and from working in places like restaurants, farm stands, work-study in college, study habits, along with professional scientists and engineers.

Not sure why you'd think my opinion is less valid than yours.

If I was starting a company, I'd hire foreigners and Americans, depending on the individuals--I may end up hiring more foreigners, hard to say. But bottom line is that I'd hire who's best and often that is a foreigner.

Danke
11-20-2013, 01:56 PM
In think Amy is right, I get better service from the foreign women I hire.

Brian4Liberty
11-20-2013, 02:07 PM
You base your opinion on one industry dominated by one ethnic group that everyone knows is terrible in. I'm talking about Middle Easterners, Mexicans, Asians, Indians, etc. and from working in places like restaurants, farm stands, work-study in college, study habits, along with professional scientists and engineers.

Not sure why you'd think my opinion is less valid than yours.

If I was starting a company, I'd hire foreigners and Americans, depending on the individuals--I may end up hiring more foreigners, hard to say. But bottom line is that I'd hire who's best and often that is a foreigner.

I never said your opinion was less valid. I was agreeing with you that in many industries (other than IT), they are careful about hiring competent people. Especially in some highly specialized niches.

The point here is that this national/political debate is being driven by the IT industry, which sucks up all of the Visas as soon as they are available. They could quadruple the amount of skilled worker visas, and they would still get monopolized by the IT industry. The entire program is corrupted.

amy31416
11-20-2013, 02:10 PM
In think Amy is right, I get better service from the foreign women I hire.

I'd avoid Russians if I were you.

amy31416
11-20-2013, 02:11 PM
In think Amy is right, I get better service from the foreign women I hire.

I'd avoid Russians if I were you.

Danke
11-20-2013, 02:13 PM
I'd avoid Russians if I were you.

Sorry to hear about your bad experiences with Russian women. I'll take your advice, and I heard you the first time, no reason to repeat yourself with me.

Brian4Liberty
11-20-2013, 02:15 PM
In think Amy is right, I get better service from the foreign women I hire.

What type of Visa do they have?

Ender
11-20-2013, 02:37 PM
I would add that there are Computer Science programs in the US that are the best in the world. There are also quite a few that aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

True- but the greatest computer tech I ever knew never took a class and could do anything on a computer, plus repair any program or service. His fees started at $10K and he was constantly employed.

amy31416
11-20-2013, 02:46 PM
Sorry to hear about your bad experiences with Russian women. I'll take your advice, and I heard you the first time, no reason to repeat yourself with me.

It's only because I care, Danke. You big squeezy-bear, you!

Philhelm
11-20-2013, 04:34 PM
What type of Visa do they have?

I'm thinking a B-J Visa.

CPUd
11-20-2013, 05:39 PM
(Not picking on Amy here!)

Usually I wouldn't go into this much detail. I am not naming the very well known tech companies where this occurred, and it may only fully make sense to IT people. This was the situation at two companies, and it was just prior to SOX (Sarbanes–Oxley Act). Simply, SOX was about accounting fraud, and subsequently impacted IT security practices.

These shops were 100% imported workers from India. The following practices came with them.

- Database security: Database passwords were hard-coded into code. This creates many problems, beyond security. To make things easier, the all-access database password was the same in all environments: Development, a variety of Testing and Training instances, and Production. This made it easier to move code around between environments, pretty much at will. Which brings us to the next issue. (Production might have three database user/password combinations. One for DBAs, one for applications with full privileges, one read-only).

- Source Code Control: Didn't exist. Any developer could pull code from ANY environment, and move it back to ANY environment. Code was duplicated everywhere, including many places created by individual developers. Little to no coordination between programmers or different groups. Experienced programmers know the utter disasters that this leads to. Re-introduction of bugs was common, almost expected. One might almost think that this was a make-work strategy.

So there it is. A couple of examples of the best and brightest. Not lazy? These practices are the definition of lazy from a technical standpoint. Quality? Experienced? Competent? Not really. But they could talk a good game to those with less technical knowledge. Baffle them with bullshit.

When questioned about productivity, I know some of these firms use the number of lines of code as a measure.

erowe1
11-20-2013, 05:41 PM
I'm thinking a B-J Visa.

And a Greek passport?

Natural Citizen
11-20-2013, 05:56 PM
There was a Fox business tube around here with Massie some place discussing this . It's been a while. Thomas seemed to support the H1-B while overlooking our stem students. I think I hammered him pretty good on it wherever it is.

heavenlyboy34
11-20-2013, 06:06 PM
US Education has become Indoctrination which is not about Learning. Its a meat grinder that chews up the best and spits out the worst. Our continued educational system is one of the most expensive in the world (yay #1, or close to it) yet places Obedience and Liberalism at its core values over the information people are supposedly taught. At this rate, they may just as well start charging $50 bucks for anything on the dollar menu. Apparently, we've become accustomed to paying way more than full price and getting garbage in return.

Then we wonder why companies look at graduates and make claims that they simply can not find qualified workers. Double down with a touch of corporate greed who wants superstar Ph D's at minimum wage prices. And introduce the Global Economy where people living here have to compete with Robots, Automation, and people in other countries willing and able to do the same job for a buck an hour, or a day. Add in a bunch of selfish stock holders who care only about their profit margins and find any business practice is acceptable as long as their stocks go up up up in value. Top it all off with a criminal Central Banking Cartel that not only shows favoritism to the Global Elite, but flat out sets the stage for what any business can do.

Just a touch of NSA and violating the Worlds Trust by spying on everyone, period (except for the IMF, hmm, how about that) where no one even wants any technology spit out by the United States because it has built in back doors required by law. Wonder why International Non US based companies dont send business our way. Then wonder why our Unemployment Rate is really around 25% for those that are willing and able and WANT to work. Corrupt the Govt, and see that number drop to 8% because they exclude everyone possible. MSM only typically reports on the U6 (people collecting unemployment benefits) vs the U3 (total people that are able and want to work).

Take that whole broke on their ass percentage of the population, and make it a crime to be poor by making it illegal to not have Health Insurance, which comes at the tremendous cost not only financially, but in terms of Jobs as well. Obamacare isnt just a straw that broke a camels back, its more like a fucking sledgehammer being swung as hard as possible by Superman. Then wonder why STEM graduates cant find tech jobs and conclude that there are almost none.That should be liberalism, not Liberalism. The latter is a mostly dead 18th century philosophy. Mises was the last great one AFAIK.

HOLLYWOOD
11-20-2013, 06:30 PM
Why would US companies prefer to import and hire foreign workers?Half Price Sale on Labor... yes I get the inputs from all sources directly, high tech management, high tech engineers, and high tech HR management. I've heard the stories, witnessed the operations, and told the game plan.

Put your filters on: Notice how you hear all day about more pay & benefits for; Cops, Firefighters, .gov employees, equal pay for Woman, etc... but you never hear of "Equal Pay" or benefits for H1B, H2C, migrant workers, etc.

http://powersellingmom.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/LaborDaySale.jpg

LibForestPaul
11-20-2013, 07:49 PM
So this is going to turn into a Libertarian vs Republican immigration debate. Just wanted to be sure.

Team Red here!

Section 1706 , all that you need to know about insourcing.

Power, control, protected classes. 51% will get smaller, this is assurred.

LibForestPaul
11-20-2013, 07:53 PM
If companies prefer to hire foreigners in computer science fields,?
I would gladly hire a cop here in my county for $20k a year, and outsource the government workers. Send me your instructions oh great poohbah.

CPUd
11-20-2013, 08:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYaZ57Bn4pQ

specsaregood
11-20-2013, 08:47 PM
You base your opinion on one industry dominated by one ethnic group that everyone knows is terrible in.

Brian's observations are spot-on for H1B programmers and IT fuckers. I've gotten a lot of work over the years fixing projects they screwed to all hell and back. Bunch of worthless fucks. Of course there are probably some good ones, working at MS, google, apple etc -- a very small minority.

thoughtomator
11-20-2013, 08:59 PM
Why would US companies prefer to import and hire foreign workers?

Because foreign workers have no protections and no rights and if they don't do exactly what you want you can ship them off to back where they came from. It's an escape from much of the regulatory burden placed on US workers.

erowe1
11-20-2013, 09:06 PM
It's an escape from much of the regulatory burden placed on US workers.

That's another point in favor of it.

CPUd
11-20-2013, 09:10 PM
If you want to see what the quality of work these outsourcing firms can do, just go to healthcare.gov, right-click and 'view source'.

It's a bit different than it was a week ago; has a bit of a hipster infusion to it, but the fingerprints are still there.

RickyJ
11-20-2013, 10:58 PM
Cheaper, better educated, not as lazy and less of a sense of being owed something.



You got the cheaper part right, but everything else you said is wrong.

thoughtomator
11-20-2013, 11:07 PM
That's another point in favor of it.

That's a point in favor of removing those burdens, at which point the foreigners' competitive advantage largely disappears.

MRK
11-21-2013, 06:24 AM
They're probably cheaper :confused: It's not just about outsourcing anymore... insourcing is also costing Americans jobs.

There is a floor about how low companies can pay workers.

If you look at numbeo.com, you can see that general prices in third world countries are between 2-4 times cheaper than the United States.

However, if one of these workers is working in the US, they still have to pay for everything at US prices. Therefore, they can't work for a dollar per hour like they can in their home countries.

Furthermore, there is a definite palpable quality of work difference between these foreign-educated and experienced workers and many US workers. This becomes apparent very quickly.

So personally, I think the outsourcing scare is overblown. Sure, for copy-paste tech jobs that are really just data entry with a hat on it, yeah those jobs are going to be outsourced, but realistically, in 5 years there would be a huge supply of skills in the US for these jobs anyway and the prices would get driven down regardless.

erowe1
11-21-2013, 08:07 AM
That's a point in favor of removing those burdens, at which point the foreigners' competitive advantage largely disappears.

Sure. No disagreement here.

It's also a point in favor of any means available of avoiding and evading those burdens.

Brian4Liberty
03-26-2014, 11:11 AM
Gerri Willis, from the Fox Business Network was just a guest on Fox News. She said that of US STEM graduates, 64% of Comp Sci and 54% of Engineering students are not in that field after a year because they can not get a job, or the jobs have relatively low pay. Maybe being a Union grocery store clerk or government bureaucrat pays more.

So much for this BS propaganda about the US needing to fix STEM education.

MRK
03-26-2014, 12:32 PM
And a Greek passport?

Shipped through the canal past Dildo, Newfoundland on a steamboat headed to Cleveland.

RandallFan
03-26-2014, 04:31 PM
Steve King and Jeff Sessions are the only Republicans to oppose STEM visa increases (on committee). Michael Savage called Cruz a Snake.

The Democrats are smart enough to block it as well so they get their 12 million voters in the immigration deal. I hope Obama vetoes any STEM bill and demands 12 million illegals get amnesty.

GunnyFreedom
03-26-2014, 05:03 PM
(Not picking on Amy here!)

Usually I wouldn't go into this much detail. I am not naming the very well known tech companies where this occurred, and it may only fully make sense to IT people. This was the situation at two companies, and it was just prior to SOX (Sarbanes–Oxley Act). Simply, SOX was about accounting fraud, and subsequently impacted IT security practices.

These shops were 100% imported workers from India. The following practices came with them.

- Database security: Database passwords were hard-coded into code. This creates many problems, beyond security. To make things easier, the all-access database password was the same in all environments: Development, a variety of Testing and Training instances, and Production. This made it easier to move code around between environments, pretty much at will. Which brings us to the next issue. (Production might have three database user/password combinations. One for DBAs, one for applications with full privileges, one read-only).

- Source Code Control: Didn't exist. Any developer could pull code from ANY environment, and move it back to ANY environment. Code was duplicated everywhere, including many places created by individual developers. Little to no coordination between programmers or different groups. Experienced programmers know the utter disasters that this leads to. Re-introduction of bugs was common, almost expected. One might almost think that this was a make-work strategy.

So there it is. A couple of examples of the best and brightest. Not lazy? These practices are the definition of lazy from a technical standpoint. Quality? Experienced? Competent? Not really. But they could talk a good game to those with less technical knowledge. Baffle them with bullshit.

Aye, and I've had similar experiences in a different sector of IT. I do everything from replacing network jacks to precision maintenance at NOCs and server farms. Some of the work requires remote coordination, for instance you don't go powering down servers in a NOC without the Admin shunting traffic.

I have started pretty much turning down any work where remote support is out of India. Not only do they tend to be procedurally lazy, they are incompetent, apparently annoyed that they actually have to do work, and some of them I could not understand with a translator at my elbow. More than once I've had a job go belly up because of crap remote support from India, so when I get a buyer that wants me to do coordinated work, first thing I ask is where is the remote support and if it's India I politely decline.

Amy's experience is nothing like mine at all. Your experience is far more like mine. Frankly I'd rather work with a random American High School PC gamer as my remote support than a dedicated 'professional' in India.

DamianTV
03-26-2014, 05:07 PM
Why would US companies prefer to import and hire foreign workers?

Probably a lot of different reasons.

Every potential answer to the question is not going to be true in all cases.

Some immigrants will be willing to accept low rates of pay for the opportunity to work in the US. US students that do have degrees may not have adequate skillsets provided by their trainers. Tax incentives for employers (again, not always true). Favoritism for immigrants over residents (also not always true), based on many things, possible tax incentives, ability to pay either lower or higher, skillset of employees considered.

There would also be advantages to hiring locally over importing as well, but when an objective list is tallied up, which ever group offers more benefits will be the group that employers prefer. Of course, this also widely varies from situation to situation.

Christopher A. Brown
03-26-2014, 05:49 PM
We have a situation that was put into motion by GATT, that went into full swing with production about 2002. American corporations doing business with foreign corps were able to move employees from overseas to the US. Multinational US corporations moved production overseas immediately.

What is not nice to consider is the major push in the US educational system in the early 1990's towards digital technology education. Then in 1997 those companies started using the GATT advantage to move the digital technology jobs to foreign countries. All this adds up to the China debt and unemployment for Americans.

GATT and NAFTA are not good for the planet.

This is another reason why we need Article V, to rescind those treaties which have a treasonous aspect relating to environment. The BP gulf leak, gas fracking, the XL oil sand arrangement etc. When a US company is doing business with a foreign company US law is suspended. Jurisdiction is under a tribunal. Only a nation has standing in complaint under GATT. Congress and the senate get major money from the corporations, why would they authorize complaint?

All this is kept from the public. The BP leak/spill went down, the courts pretended they had jurisdiction and the oil industry went along with it to make it look like such was true. Maybe you recall the EPA "asking" BP to not spray corexit. When the EPA has authority they issue an order. Environmental organizations either did not figure it out; hard to believe; or went along with it for some $ reason.

Now the EPA is relegated to stopping wood burning stoves.

These threads all relate to OUR use of Article V, because we simply cannot trust anyone else.

The information you just read SHOULD have been on national TV for years. This draft revision of the First Amendment assures The People can get information to the nation of people.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?445915-Proposed-Revision-to-the-First-Amendment-Ending-the-Abridging-of-free-speech-PREP-FOR-ART5

This is a valid step by step legal process for Americans to use Article V. Notice no one is saying it is not. No one understands this because the educational system did not teach it therefore the society knows nothing about it. No leaders will take the initiative with this, or do not know of it.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?444637-Georgia-House-approves-Article-V-convention&p=5433668&viewfull=1#post5433668

The first step in the above process is unity. Since all Americans love the notion of free speech, it is logical that unity around the purpose of free speech, which is also constitutional intent, is a valid first step. Ambiguity does not work here.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?445586-Only-Sincere-Americans-Accept-The-Root-Purpose-Of-Free-Speech

At this page is a proposal for a party type concept, which can probably use the independent ballot and a write-in action.

http://algoxy.com/poly/principal_party.html

Finally, some of the major movers and shakers pushing GATT and NAFTA through are a part of ALEC. ALEC is working for an Article V convention. Probably an unconstitutional convention. Which, they will probably get IF we do not hold them accountable or get active with conducting a convention ourselves. Sign this if you would like to see accountability of these organizations to constitutional intent, the only limit on an Article V convention. COS is probably okay, and may adopt the four principles of the principle party IF there is enough public interest. Wake up!

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/298/672/130/do-cos-and-alec-really-want-an-article-v-convention-with-constitutional-intent/

If you wonder how things got so messed up, here's a basic summary.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?446267-Do-Users-Here-Understand-What-Happened-To-The-Old-Republic

HOLLYWOOD
03-26-2014, 05:57 PM
Hot off the presses: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2014-03/26/content_17381141.htm



GE establishes 3rd China Innovation Center

By DU JUAN (chinadaily.com.cn) Updated: 2014-03-26 17:53

General Electric Co established its third China Innovation Center at the Science and Technology Mansion in Harbin (http://e.my399.com/) on Wednesday, aiming at improving the company's technical localization and collaboration.
The center was designed to build a co-development platform with its Chinese partner, Harbin Electric, and to work together to develop innovations, improve the overall performance of gas turbines and bring combined-cycle power plant solutions to China, according to a company statement.
This is GE's third specially designed customer innovation center in China, following Chengdu and Xi'an.
"The GE Harbin Innovation Center is creating a new platform for technical collaboration," John Rice, vice-chairman of GE, said in the statement. "GE is committed to supporting the transformation and advancement of the Chinese gas power market through collaborative innovation."
Rising energy (http://bizchina.chinadaily.com.cn/shp_per_energy.shtml)-related issues, such as air pollution (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/node_1104661.htm), have been making China seek higher energy efficiency and increased natural gas (http://topic.chinadaily.com.cn/index/special/sid/173) consumption among its primary energy mix.
The government has also set a target to increase the percentage of both clean energy and distributed power.
Gas-powered energy becomes an important alternative in the coal (http://bizchina.chinadaily.com.cn/category_c2.shtml?ch_cate=1053&cate=enm)-dominant market because gas is cleaner and more flexible.
The establishment of the new center will allow GE to accelerate the localization of its advanced technologies by leveraging (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/ageing-population.htm) the strong capabilities of Harbin Electric in turbine, power generation and waste heat

Here's a side note from 2010: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-09/general-electric-to-spend-2-billion-on-china-technology-finance-ventures.html

General Electric Plans to Invest $2 Billion in China

By Bloomberg News Nov 8, 2010




GE against Scotland split, wants U.K. to stay in EU, FT says
http://www.theflyonthewall.com/images/subscribe_now.gif Subscribe for More Information (http://www.theflyonthewall.com)

Brian4Liberty
03-26-2014, 11:24 PM
Hot off the presses: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2014-03/26/content_17381141.htm

Here's a side note from 2010: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-09/general-electric-to-spend-2-billion-on-china-technology-finance-ventures.html

General Electric Plans to Invest $2 Billion in China


Just another day for Obama's jobs Czar, Immelt.

Natural Citizen
03-26-2014, 11:27 PM
Do what I did. Buy junior a truck and a trailer...maybe some starter equipment and tell him to get his ass to work. It works too because i got my investment back in no time.

edit - make sure to teach him how to back it up though. Like through a development.

Christopher A. Brown
03-27-2014, 12:53 AM
"Gas-powered energy becomes an important alternative in the coal-dominant market because gas is cleaner and more flexible."

Multinational corporations invest in natural gas fracking here, no accountability for destroying water sources across the nation because they are under GATT, then sell the gas cheap to developing nations.

The increase of energy in those developing nations causes population surges and often abandonment of traditional, sometimes sustainable practices. Energy and good drinking water become more scarce faster.

Depleting valuable resource and trashing America a little at a time.

tangent4ronpaul
03-27-2014, 04:23 AM
Oh come on guys! The gvmt just needs to create a ton of "shovel ready" jobs out of thin air for all these new grads... :rolleyes:

-t

Demigod
03-27-2014, 06:03 AM
STEM include Mathematics. Where was thread about welfare recipients doing the math and finding that welfare and food stamps pay better than working? STEM graduates should be able to do that same math, and do it faster. Welfare and food stamps for all!

Mathematics has a very narrow opportunity for work .You are either the genius and go to research or you become a teacher.

As for IT I would not belittle your universities so easily.Maybe your education up to university has its problems but your universities are a totally different class.Brian makes a good point about the fact that today most of the lower management is foreign workers and they prefer to hire people from their cultures.In my opinion it even maybe be the most important together with going around worker regulations.

e

DGambler
03-27-2014, 07:48 AM
Cheaper, better educated, not as lazy and less of a sense of being owed something.

But, it's the corporation's choice--if that's what works best for them.

I work in high tech, this isn't true.

DGambler
03-27-2014, 07:53 AM
(Not picking on Amy here!)

Usually I wouldn't go into this much detail. I am not naming the very well known tech companies where this occurred, and it may only fully make sense to IT people. This was the situation at two companies, and it was just prior to SOX (Sarbanes–Oxley Act). Simply, SOX was about accounting fraud, and subsequently impacted IT security practices.

These shops were 100% imported workers from India. The following practices came with them.

- Database security: Database passwords were hard-coded into code. This creates many problems, beyond security. To make things easier, the all-access database password was the same in all environments: Development, a variety of Testing and Training instances, and Production. This made it easier to move code around between environments, pretty much at will. Which brings us to the next issue. (Production might have three database user/password combinations. One for DBAs, one for applications with full privileges, one read-only).

- Source Code Control: Didn't exist. Any developer could pull code from ANY environment, and move it back to ANY environment. Code was duplicated everywhere, including many places created by individual developers. Little to no coordination between programmers or different groups. Experienced programmers know the utter disasters that this leads to. Re-introduction of bugs was common, almost expected. One might almost think that this was a make-work strategy.

So there it is. A couple of examples of the best and brightest. Not lazy? These practices are the definition of lazy from a technical standpoint. Quality? Experienced? Competent? Not really. But they could talk a good game to those with less technical knowledge. Baffle them with bullshit.

Very well said, it's a small example that is multiplied across a variety of systems... I've also experienced, multiple times, an inattention to quality. Overall, I think many people in corporate environments have been brainwashed into cheaper is better when it should be "you get what you pay for".

brandon
03-27-2014, 08:22 AM
I just reentered the job market 10 days ago and it's been slower than I thought it would be. I have several leads but still don't have any interviews lined up. I'm a software engineer with 5 years of experience, but my specialty kind of narrows down the field. I think I might need to move out west.

Demigod
03-27-2014, 11:19 AM
I just reentered the job market 10 days ago and it's been slower than I thought it would be. I have several leads but still don't have any interviews lined up. I'm a software engineer with 5 years of experience, but my specialty kind of narrows down the field. I think I might need to move out west.

Go to a German embassy apply for a visa.They need more than 100 000 IT engineers.Paycheck starting from 5000 Euros.

PRB
03-27-2014, 03:16 PM
Cheaper, better educated, not as lazy and less of a sense of being owed something.

But, it's the corporation's choice--if that's what works best for them.

yeah, foreigners, especially Indians and Chinese, are less likely to argue with you over vacation time, benefits, or personal issues. this is stereotype, there's definitely exceptions, but ultimately companies choose what is cheapest, least trouble, most efficient.

Danke
03-27-2014, 03:20 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

bump