Retailer Fines Customer $3,500 For Bad Review

[angelatc]

This is pretty unsettling:

http://www.kutv.com/news/features/gephardt/stories/vid_474.shtml


(KUTV) For Christmas several years ago, Jen Palmer's husband ordered her a number of trinkets from the website kleargear.com. But for 30 days, Kleargear.com never sent the products so the transaction was automatically cancelled by Paypal, Jen said.

Wanting an explanation, Jen says she tried to call the company but could never reach anyone. So frustrated, she turned to the internet writing a negative review on ripoffreport.com.

"There is absolutely no way to get in touch with a physical human being," it says. And it accuses kleargear.com of having "horrible customer service practices."

So she wrote a negative review on RipOffReport.com. Forward to present day:


That was the end of it, Jen thought, until three years later when Jen's husband got an email from Kleargear.com demanding the post be removed or they would be fined. Kleargear.com says Jen violated a non-disparagement clause. It turns out that, hidden within the terms of sale on Kleargear.com there is a clause that reads:

"In an effort to ensure fair and honest public feedback, and to prevent the publishing of libelous content in any form, your acceptance of this sales contract prohibits you from taking any action that negatively impacts kleargear.com, its reputation, products, services, management or employees."

The clause goes on to say if a consumer violates the contract they will have 72 hours to remove your post or face a $3500 fine. If that fine is not paid, the delinquency will be reported to the nation's credit bureaus.

And that's what they're doing. They've reported this as an outstanding debt to the credit bureaus.


There is some question as to whether or not that non-disparagement clause existed way back in 2008 when Jen wrote that negative review. Kleargear.com says it did but website archives from 2008 don't show it the clause.

And from the comments:


If there was no performance by KlearGear (product never shipped) then a contract was never completed.

[dannno]

$3,500 fine? Why didn't they make it $35 million?

[HOLLYWOOD]

And that's what they're doing. They've reported this as an outstanding debt to the credit bureaus.It appears to be a fraudulent accusation
... but, I'm sure they had their lawyers pull this stunt knowing that it will cost much more than $3500, which is usually just the up front money retainer for a legal firm in suing these scumbags.

This is where activism/social media can truly take a bite out of this game.

[PRB]

Too bad, nobody can or has removed anything from ripoffreport.com. If you're looking for a place to lie about a business and never worry about it being deleted, that's the place.

But I must say, what a genius way to protect your reputation, to make customers agree they'll pay a fine if they say something bad. What will practically happen is, they'll try to collect, and they can fight it in court, and juries will probably rule the contract unenforceable. But in the short term, it's Streissand effect for the site kleargear, because now everybody knows Jen's story, regardless of whether her initial claim was true, everybody knows now what happens if you write something about a company you bought things from.

[PRB]

$3,500 fine? Why didn't they make it $35 million?

low enough that a person would pay it rather than fight it in court, and low enough that it's not likely going to be found by juries as "unreasonable" and therefore unenforceable.

[amy31416]

Well, the nice thing is that you can write a bad review of them so long as you don't buy anything.

Michigan company, by the way.

[phill4paul]

low enough that a person would pay it rather than fight it in court, and low enough that it's not likely going to be found by juries as "unreasonable" and therefore unenforceable.

$3500? I will stomp somebodies ass over that amount. And have. There is no way I would pay it. I'd file a counter suit in my county and they could come here to defend themselves.


If there was no performance by KlearGear (product never shipped) then a contract was never completed.

I tend to agree.

[ctiger2]

Since when does a private company have the authority to levy a fine? lol

[aGameOfThrones]

If there was no performance by KlearGear (product never shipped) then a contract was never completed.

They deserve a lawsuit so much.

[PRB]

Since when does a private company have the authority to levy a fine? lol

whenever the other person agrees to it.

[aGameOfThrones]

But Jen says she was not always so defiant. After receiving the threat she says she was terrified. She contacted Ripoffreport.com to ask that the post be removed but Ripoffreport.com won't let her without paying $2000 she says.

"I have the right to tell somebody else these guys ripped me off," Jen said.

As we began looking into this, we quickly learned that Jen is not alone in her frustrations with Kleargear.com. There are many posts in addition to Jen's on Ripoffreport.com as well as other online consumer complaint boards. In 2010, the company was slapped with an "F rating" by the Better Business Bureau for "not delivering products purchased online in a timely manner," says the BBB's website. Kleargear.com today has a "B" rating.

When we tried calling Kleargear.com we were unsuccessful in getting through to anybody. By email, a person who did not identify him or herself defended the $3500 charge referring again to Kleargear.com's terms of sale. As for Jen being threatened - remove the post or face a fine - the company said that was not blackmail but rather a, "diligent effort to help them avoid [the fine]."


Fuck!

[Brian4Liberty]

Would this be an appropriate place for a Southpark clip?

For some reason "vanilla paste" sounds good right now.

[angelatc]

Well, the nice thing is that you can write a bad review of them so long as you don't buy anything.

Michigan company, by the way.

Wowser - according to Inc. Magazine, they're the 50th largest business in MI: http://www.inc.com/profile/kleargearcom

Chief Marketing Officer is named Rob Key: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kleargear

They do a little eBay business: http://www.ebay.com/usr/kleargear-dot-com - but almost exclusively as a buyer these days. If you look at their feedback in the first link, it is 100%. However, pull it up as a seller...and you see lots of negatives: http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=kleargear-dot-com&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

Here's a victim's original blog posting about a similiar cancelation: http://www.injennsbag.com/2008/08/28/update-on-kleargear/ - same first name. Might be the same person.

[DamianTV]

It appears to be a fraudulent accusation
... but, I'm sure they had their lawyers pull this stunt knowing that it will cost much more than $3500, which is usually just the up front money retainer for a legal firm in suing these scumbags.

This is where activism/social media can truly take a bite out of this game.

It most definitely is fraudulent. However, try getting ahold of anyone at the Big Three that do anything to fix these problems.

Financial Abuse begets more financial abuse.

[qh4dotcom]

But Jen says she was not always so defiant. After receiving the threat she says she was terrified. She contacted Ripoffreport.com to ask that the post be removed but Ripoffreport.com won't let her without paying $2000 she says.

Nope, an affected business pays the $2,000 if it wants to ARBITRATE the report....which gets any inaccuracies redacted in case RipOffReport arbitrators decide in favor of the business who must prove their allegation....the redacted report still does not get removed from the site....I don't think they will accept $2,000 from the consumer, only the affected business.

I found the RipOffReport.com URL of this case

http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/kleargearcom/san-antonio-texas-78229/kleargearcom-incompetent-customer-service-refusal-to-ship-products-san-antonio-texas-421103


Their TOS from 2009 clearly had no BS Non-Disparagement Clause:

http://web.archive.org/web/20081219095714/http://www.kleargear.com/termsofuse.html

It wasn't added till June 2012 and doesn't apply to a 2008 sale:

http://web.archive.org/web/20120627211945/http://www.kleargear.com/termsofuse.html

By the way, the URL http://www.kleargear.com/termsofuse.html is not working and redirects to another part of their site, their current terms also don't have a Non-Disparagement Clause.

[amy31416]

Wowser - according to Inc. Magazine, they're the 50th largest business in MI: http://www.inc.com/profile/kleargearcom

Chief Marketing Officer is named Rob Key: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kleargear

They do a little eBay business: http://www.ebay.com/usr/kleargear-dot-com - but almost exclusively as a buyer these days. If you look at their feedback in the first link, it is 100%. However, pull it up as a seller...and you see lots of negatives: http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=kleargear-dot-com&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

Here's a victim's original blog posting about a similiar cancelation: http://www.injennsbag.com/2008/08/28/update-on-kleargear/ - same first name. Might be the same person.

Lots of people working on making sure that other people know what a crap company they are: https://www.facebook.com/KlearGear

They're deleting comments and banning users from the page, but not fast enough. Given the season, this could really screw up their game.

[amy31416]

Wowser - according to Inc. Magazine, they're the 50th largest business in MI: http://www.inc.com/profile/kleargearcom

Chief Marketing Officer is named Rob Key: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kleargear

They do a little eBay business: http://www.ebay.com/usr/kleargear-dot-com - but almost exclusively as a buyer these days. If you look at their feedback in the first link, it is 100%. However, pull it up as a seller...and you see lots of negatives: http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=kleargear-dot-com&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

Here's a victim's original blog posting about a similiar cancelation: http://www.injennsbag.com/2008/08/28/update-on-kleargear/ - same first name. Might be the same person.

Lots of people working on making sure that other people know what a crap company they are: https://www.facebook.com/KlearGear

They're deleting comments and banning users from the page, but not fast enough. Given the season, this could really screw up their game.

[angelatc]

Ha ha ha! I didn't even think of the impact the timing of this story could have! That's beautiful!

So their approach to this PR nightmare is to tweet happy tweets, frantically delete Facebook posts and pretend none of this is happening?

[amy31416]

Ha ha ha! I didn't even think of the impact the timing of this story could have! That's beautiful!

12 Tweeters Tweeting
11 Bloggers Blogging
10 etc. I've run out of social media....

If they all do their thing, I think the doors will be closing in 2014.

[angelatc]

And let's mock people over it!

http://i.imgur.com/0tBjSLP.png

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I love Ripoff Report. They use SEO so well, that simply Googling a company with a Ripoff Report means that company will show up in the top two to five results. The companies I have reported are often the second Google result.

You don't even have to put anything substantial in the content of your report. The fact that appears in a Google result will deter a lot of people.

[aGameOfThrones]

KlearGear...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fWNR3TCJL9Q/Tn-2iU_wWeI/AAAAAAAAAb8/t0ur_xoMNjk/s1600/Gearge-Takei-Douchbag-Animated-GIF.gif

[ronpaulfollower999]

I don't think a judge would hold that up in court.

[amy31416]

And let's mock people over it!

http://i.imgur.com/0tBjSLP.png

Well that gets a "holy WTF?!"

[qh4dotcom]

Lots of people working on making sure that other people know what a crap company they are: https://www.facebook.com/KlearGear

They're deleting comments and banning users from the page, but not fast enough. Given the season, this could really screw up their game.

Looks like they deleted their page or unpublished it....it is no longer accesible...I was able to see it with with Google cache but couldn't see the comments.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Typing Kleargear in Google brings up their RipOff Reports on the first page. Typing KlearGear.com brings it up on the second page, but the news story is on the first page.

Yeah, looks like their genius, legal doubletalk had a great effect. See ya later, Rear Gear!

[amy31416]

Looks like they deleted their page or unpublished it....it is no longer accesible...I was able to see it with with Google cache but couldn't see the comments.

Nope. Not showing up anymore. I guess it's up to the Tweeters.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I don't think a judge would hold that up in court.

Judges are often cowardly, but yeah, I could see a judge ruling for the customer. The first 21 words don't even go with the rest of sentence, not to mention the company's silly phrase of "negatively impacts."

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Since when does a private company have the authority to levy a fine? lol

Their contractual language was silly enough, but this really does take the cake.

[PRB]

Judges are often cowardly, but yeah, I could see a judge ruling for the customer. The first 21 words don't even go with the rest of sentence, not to mention the company's silly phrase of "negatively impacts."

I agree, the phrase is so broad it can be anything, such is hard to enforce.

[PRB]

Never heard of this site before, but now I want myself a Cthulu ski mask!

http://ep.yimg.com/ay/yhst-78359274419338/cthulhu-ski-mask-2.jpg

[PRB]

It appears to be a fraudulent accusation
... but, I'm sure they had their lawyers pull this stunt knowing that it will cost much more than $3500, which is usually just the up front money retainer for a legal firm in suing these scumbags.

This is where activism/social media can truly take a bite out of this game.

You might be right, which is totally despicable. It's one thing to sneakingly trick users to agreeing with something you know they wouldn't. But it's totally criminal to lie about whether they agreed or saw the terms, and worse yet, to report it based on a lie to...ironic, CREDIT BUREAUS.

http://www.popehat.com/2013/11/15/new-from-kleargear-free-speech-only-3500-plus-shipping-and-handling/

[qh4dotcom]

Nope. Not showing up anymore. I guess it's up to the Tweeters.

Their Twitter page is gone too


@Kleargear's tweets are protected.
Only confirmed followers have access to @Kleargear's Tweets and complete profile. Click the "Follow" button to send a follow request.

https://twitter.com/Kleargear

[aGameOfThrones]

You might be right, which is totally despicable. It's one thing to sneakingly trick users to agreeing with something you know they wouldn't. But it's totally criminal to lie about whether they agreed or saw the terms, and worse yet, to report it based on a lie to...ironic, CREDIT BUREAUS.

http://www.popehat.com/2013/11/15/new-from-kleargear-free-speech-only-3500-plus-shipping-and-handling/


one of the comments:


Up until recently they also had a "Chargeback and Dispute Policy" clause where they would fine you $550, send you to a collections agency, and add you to the badcustomers.com blacklist (since shutdown as a scam by the FTC in 2011) if you attempted to get your credit card to stop payment on an item in dispute. The badcustomers.com threat was in the T&C as recently as August 2013, even though the site hasn't existed for 2 years.

http://web.archive.org/web/20130817144417/http://www.kleargear.com/termsofuse.html

http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/bad-customer-i-works-scam-enforcer-busted-ftc-1282.php

[PRB]

one of the comments:


Up until recently they also had a "Chargeback and Dispute Policy" clause where they would fine you $550, send you to a collections agency, and add you to the badcustomers.com blacklist (since shutdown as a scam by the FTC in 2011) if you attempted to get your credit card to stop payment on an item in dispute. The badcustomers.com threat was in the T&C as recently as August 2013, even though the site hasn't existed for 2 years.

http://web.archive.org/web/20130817144417/http://www.kleargear.com/termsofuse.html

http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/bad-customer-i-works-scam-enforcer-busted-ftc-1282.php

If this is remotely true, it's surprising they haven't had their ass sued off.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

...and add you to the badcustomers.com blacklist (since shutdown as a scam by the FTC in 2011


That's okay. There's more hilarity with the customer rating site Rate My Customers (dot) Com.



Okay, don't do business with Erin Boehm. She is a turr-ist!!!

From: http://ratemycustomers.com/database.html:


Boehm, Erin
The homeowner signed an agreement with our company. Our service reps performed the work as agreed by the customer. Now, the customer will not commit to their obligation because they are trying to profit from an insurance claim. They have threatened action to the BBB and to a local news station in hopes that the negative publicity will scare us into caving into thier terrorist like behavior.

[PRB]

That's okay. There's more hilarity with the customer rating site Rate My Customers (dot) Com.



Okay, don't do business with Erin Boehm. She is a turr-ist!!!

From: http://ratemycustomers.com/database.html:


Boehm, Erin
The homeowner signed an agreement with our company. Our service reps performed the work as agreed by the customer. Now, the customer will not commit to their obligation because they are trying to profit from an insurance claim. They have threatened action to the BBB and to a local news station in hopes that the negative publicity will scare us into caving into thier terrorist like behavior.

wow, so there's a site for everything, thanks for....sharing!

[amy31416]

They started a new FB page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Klear-gear/159968647377159

[Flugel89]

They started a new FB page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Klear-gear/159968647377159

Aaaand.... Nothing put bad press as far as posts go. They aren't doing too well for them selves.

[chudrockz]

They started a new FB page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Klear-gear/159968647377159

I'm pretty sure that Facebook page was started last night by someone else after the company took THEIRS down as a result of all the hate.

Seriously though, someone in charge at that company thought this $3500 fine was a good idea. The company deserves to go bankrupt for that.

[chudrockz]

This reminds me of a South Park episode where one of the kids doesn't read the agreement signing up for an Apple account or something, so Steve Jobs has him and two others kidnapped and turns them into a human shit computer or something like that.

[angelatc]

I'm pretty sure that Facebook page was started last night by someone else after the company took THEIRS down as a result of all the hate.

Seriously though, someone in charge at that company thought this $3500 fine was a good idea. The company deserves to go bankrupt for that.

I am just amazed that they have managed to grow as big as they are with such a bad customer service track record. $47.5 million in revenue in 2012, according to the Inc. profile. http://www.inc.com/profile/kleargearcom

I guess their marketing officer is doing a bang up job.

And while this is stupid on so many levels its pointless to even try to uncover them all, the point remains it was easily fixed. They should hire me. All they had to do was grovel, apologize, fire someone, and offer the woman $5,000.

I worked with the public for decades. Most people will forgive you for just about anything if you try to make it right as soon as you find out they're unhappy. It's probable that the woman has now had several lawyers offering to represent her, so she might not take the offer. But the internet in general will consider it "Mission Accomplished" and go back to looking at the tongues of celebrities.

And some of those people will decide to go ahead and order the Ctulhu mask.

[MRK]

muh contract law

[PRB]

This reminds me of a South Park episode where one of the kids doesn't read the agreement signing up for an Apple account or something, so Steve Jobs has him and two others kidnapped and turns them into a human shit computer or something like that.

Human CentiPad. They actually taught those as examples in law classes, it's about "reasonableness" of a contract.

[PRB]

I am just amazed that they have managed to grow as big as they are with such a bad customer service track record. $47.5 million in revenue in 2012, according to the Inc. profile. http://www.inc.com/profile/kleargearcom

I guess their marketing officer is doing a bang up job.

And while this is stupid on so many levels its pointless to even try to uncover them all, the point remains it was easily fixed. They should hire me. All they had to do was grovel, apologize, fire someone, and offer the woman $5,000.

I worked with the public for decades. Most people will forgive you for just about anything if you try to make it right as soon as you find out they're unhappy. It's probable that the woman has now had several lawyers offering to represent her, so she might not take the offer. But the internet in general will consider it "Mission Accomplished" and go back to looking at the tongues of celebrities.

And some of those people will decide to go ahead and order the Ctulhu mask.

$50M? Really? Then I wonder how much ThinkGeek makes. But perhaps, it's precisely because they make so much money off so many happy customers, that the 0.1%, 1% or even 5% angry customers, don't matter to them.

Inc magazine ratings don't mean much to me, since they regularly have MLM companies in there.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

I don't see how those "by using this site" etc policies that try to legally bind you are legally binding. Either way she is not legally bound because she didn't even complete the sale LOL. Last time I checked signing a contract required a signature, otherwise I could make a button on a website and right below it in 5pt font say "By clicking this button, you agree to pay me 10 dollars"

[PRB]

I don't see how those "by using this site" etc policies that try to legally bind you are legally binding. Either way she is not legally bound because she didn't even complete the sale LOL. Last time I checked signing a contract required a signature, otherwise I could make a button on a website and right below it in 5pt font say "By clicking this button, you agree to pay me 10 dollars"

Not since UETA & ESIGN

[angelatc]

Update bump:

Kleargear did not show up to any of the court dates, and as a result the court entered a default judgement against them in the amount of $3500. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/05/16/default-judgment-against-kleargear-the-company-that-billed-customers-for-3500-because-they-posted-a-negative-review/)

However, you may remember that the company pulled that clause out of their TOS ? Eh, they have reinserted it.


Non-Disparagement Clause

In an effort to ensure fair and honest public feedback, and to prevent the publishing of libelous content in any form, your acceptance of this sales contract prohibits you from taking any action that negatively impacts KlearGear.com, its reputation, products, services, management or employees.

Should you violate this clause, as determined by KlearGear.com in its sole discretion, you will be provided a seventy-two (72) hour opportunity to retract the content in question. If the content remains, in whole or in part, you will immediately be billed $3,500.00 USD for legal fees and court costs until such complete costs are determined in litigation. Should these charges remain unpaid for 30 calendar days from the billing date, your unpaid invoice will be forwarded to our third party collection firm and will be reported to consumer credit reporting agencies until paid.

[PRB]

Update bump:

Kleargear did not show up to any of the court dates, and as a result the court entered a default judgement against them in the amount of $3500. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/05/16/default-judgment-against-kleargear-the-company-that-billed-customers-for-3500-because-they-posted-a-negative-review/)

However, you may remember that the company pulled that clause out of their TOS ? Eh, they have reinserted it.

they're still in business? talk about shameless and contempt.

[aGameOfThrones]

KlearGear must pay $306,750 to couple that left negative review


This is the purported Paris address of Descoteaux Boutiques, the parent company of KlearGear.com.

After bad review and legal defeat, KlearGear lambasts former customer

Opposing lawyer laughs off new statement: "mainly an exercise in name calling."

A years-long legal odyssey involving a Utah couple that left a bad review against an online retailer, KlearGear, for an undelivered less-than-$20 order, has finally resulted in monetary damages.
On Wednesday, the judge awarded $306,750 in compensatory and punitive damages plus attorneys fees to Jennifer and John Palmer, who wrote their review in 2009. KlearGear lost in a default judgement in federal court in Utah in May 2014.

The*attorney representing the Palmers, Scott Michelman of the advocacy group Public Citizen, told Ars that collecting the money may not be so straightforward.

“We have been taking this case one step at a time,” he said.

“Now we’re going to be figuring out where KlearGear’s assets are and how we can collect them. The French company that appears now to own KlearGear made a series of statements to the media in which they attacked this lawsuit and me in particular, but they never made any kind of motion to the court, so there was nothing for the court to rule on as far as their objections were concerned.”

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/kleargear-must-pay-306750-to-couple-that-left-negative-review/

[LibForestPaul]

If all these facts are true and correct as stated, this company, unless the IQ of the mundane is far lower than I could even imagine, should be out of business in days, not weeks.

[PaulConventionWV]

If the store doesn't uphold their end of the bargain, then they automatically void the contract and the customer is due a refund.

[PaulConventionWV]

Ha ha ha! I didn't even think of the impact the timing of this story could have! That's beautiful!

So their approach to this PR nightmare is to tweet happy tweets, frantically delete Facebook posts and pretend none of this is happening?

Yes.

So... much... fail.

[PaulConventionWV]

This reminds me of a South Park episode where one of the kids doesn't read the agreement signing up for an Apple account or something, so Steve Jobs has him and two others kidnapped and turns them into a human shit computer or something like that.

Human CentiPad

[2young2vote]

Now compare that website to Amazon. Amazon is so customer-service focused that the shareholders are mad due to their tiny profits (net income was 1/3 of 1% of sales in 2013). In the long run it will pay off to just eat up a problem and move on.

[amy31416]

Now compare that website to Amazon. Amazon is so customer-service focused that the shareholders are mad due to their tiny profits (net income was 1/3 of 1% of sales in 2013). In the long run it will pay off to just eat up a problem and move on.

Amazon is fantastic. I've had a couple orders that somehow failed to make their way to my front porch, and they didn't give me any crap about it. I'm usually pretty well prepared with order #, item, etc. though...and I give them a couple of days, just in case.

They just asked if I wanted it replaced or refunded after getting the details--normal stores are far more of a hassle.

[angelatc]

Amazon is fantastic. I've had a couple orders that somehow failed to make their way to my front porch, and they didn't give me any crap about it. I'm usually pretty well prepared with order #, item, etc. though...and I give them a couple of days, just in case.

They just asked if I wanted it replaced or refunded after getting the details--normal stores are far more of a hassle.

As a seller I compare them to eBay, and they're much better to work with on that front too.

Talking to an eBay CSR is like talking to a machine. They are reading from scripts, and are pretty much incapable of independent thought. Talking to an Amazon CSR is like talking to a human. They laugh, they joke and the best part is - they actually give you the correct answer, which is something that anybody lower than a VP at eBay is apparently incapable of.

[jbauer]

As a seller I compare them to eBay, and they're much better to work with on that front too.

Talking to an eBay CSR is like talking to a machine. They are reading from scripts, and are pretty much incapable of independent thought. Talking to an Amazon CSR is like talking to a human. They laugh, they joke and the best part is - they actually give you the correct answer, which is something that anybody lower than a VP at eBay is apparently incapable of.

Hrmm,

I've never had to deal with a sellers problem with Ebay. But I had ordered to "new" speakers for about $3k or so. The guy who sold them as new sent used ones. Very obviously used ones. I complained to him, he told me to pound salt. I started a dispute with Ebay. They not only took care of it, but they paid the return shipping on the speakers (dang things weigh 75 pounds apiece or so). I got all my money back, they charged him for the return shipping. Then he had the audacity to ask me to revise my negative feedback. Guess I'm glad I didn't run into a $3500 fee for bad reviews.

So, the point of the story is that people have different experiences with companies. I've never been disappointed with customer service from either Ebay or Amazon.

[angelatc]

Hrmm,

I've never had to deal with a sellers problem with Ebay. But I had ordered to "new" speakers for about $3k or so. The guy who sold them as new sent used ones. Very obviously used ones. I complained to him, he told me to pound salt. I started a dispute with Ebay. They not only took care of it, but they paid the return shipping on the speakers (dang things weigh 75 pounds apiece or so). I got all my money back, they charged him for the return shipping. Then he had the audacity to ask me to revise my negative feedback. Guess I'm glad I didn't run into a $3500 fee for bad reviews.

So, the point of the story is that people have different experiences with companies. I've never been disappointed with customer service from either Ebay or Amazon.

The problem with eBay is that they have no legitimate business in the transaction at all. If you had bought those speakers through a classified newspaper ad, got them home and discovered they were blown, no way would the paper get in the middle of the dispute you have with the seller. That was how eBay worked best.

These days, the problem with eBay from a seller's perspective is that they ALWAYS side with the customer. In your example, the seller could have sent you brand new speakers, you could have claimed they were used, sent him back the old blown pair you were replacing, and the outcome would have been the same: he would have been stuck eating the whole loss.

Or even better - he could have said they were used, several times in the listing. Featured pictures of the dings on the cabinets. Sold them "As Is." A buyer could get them, admit he did not actually read the description, and still get the same results you got.

Amazon is not like that. I sold a rare book that was almost 200 years old. It was not in perfect condition, but I was clear about that in my description. I posted pictures of the damage to the spine and cover, so the buyer could see what the issues were. The buyer got it, and complained. Amazon has a no hassle return policy, but they only make the seller pay return shipping if the item was misrepresented. They sided with me, and because the buyer never bothered to return the book (probably because it was heavy, and he was in Europe), I didn't lose any money.

[amy31416]

As a seller I compare them to eBay, and they're much better to work with on that front too.

Talking to an eBay CSR is like talking to a machine. They are reading from scripts, and are pretty much incapable of independent thought. Talking to an Amazon CSR is like talking to a human. They laugh, they joke and the best part is - they actually give you the correct answer, which is something that anybody lower than a VP at eBay is apparently incapable of.

The Amazon CSR's (even the Indian ones) are really great, I was actually quite surprised after having to deal with Indian Dell CSR's on a semi-regular basis, who suck beyond belief. Never dealt with eBay CSR's, but given eBay's descent into shittiness, I'm not surprised.