4th Grade Jehovah's Witness Refuses Pledge of Allegiance; States He Doesn't Worship Objects

[AuH20]

You go little man!!! Idolatry is a slippery slope.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/11/06/you-might-be-surprised-by-this-4th-graders-response-after-his-teacher-ordered-him-to-place-his-hand-over-his-heart-for-pledge-of-allegiance/

[Christian Liberty]

Too bad real Christians won't do this.

And that goes for myself last year too. I didn't stand up for principle (Which, ironically, would have entailed sitting down:p). I would probably have done differently had I had support from my parents, who didn't agree with me at the time (my dad still doesn't, but he understands my position better than he used to) but that's no excuse.

Thankfully, Christ died for that sin as well.

[AuH20]

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/whats-conservative-about-pledge-allegiance



Very little, as it turns out. From its inception, in 1892, the Pledge has been a slavish ritual of devotion to the state, wholly inappropriate for a free people. It was written by Francis Bellamy, a Christian Socialist pushed out of his post as a Baptist minister for delivering pulpit-pounding sermons on such topics as “Jesus the Socialist.” Bellamy was devoted to the ideas of his more-famous cousin Edward Bellamy, author of the 1888 utopian novel Looking Backward. Looking Backward describes the future United States as a regimented worker’s paradise where everyone has equal incomes, and men are drafted into the country’s “industrial army” at the age of 21, serving in the jobs assigned them by the state. Bellamy’s novel was extremely popular, selling more copies than other any 19th century American novel except Uncle Tom’s Cabin. Bellamy’s book inspired a movement of “Nationalist Clubs,” whose members campaigned for a government takeover of the economy. A few years before he wrote the Pledge of Allegiance, Francis Bellamy became a founding member of Boston’s first Nationalist Club.

After leaving the pulpit, Francis Bellamy decided to advance his authoritarian ideas through the public schools. Bellamy wrote the Pledge of Allegiance for Youth’s Companion, a popular children’s magazine. With the aid of the National Education Association, Bellamy and the editors of Youth’s Companion got the Pledge adopted as part of the National Public School Celebration on Columbus Day 1892.

Bellamy’s recommended ritual for honoring the flag had students all but goosestepping their way through the Pledge: “At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil gives the Flag the military salute—right hand lifted, palm downward, to a line with the forehead and close to it… At the words, ‘to my Flag,’ the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, towards the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side.” After the rise of Nazism, this form of salute was thought to be in poor taste, to say the least, and replaced with today’s hand-on-heart gesture.

[Christian Liberty]

Just read the whole article. The teacher thinks that "Its not normally OK to place your hand on students, but feels strongly that its important to pledge the flag?"

Wow. What a state-worrshipping idiot. So its not OK to put a hand on a student, unless he won't worship the State? How disgusting.

I pray that God causes her to fall on her knees and repent.

[eduardo89]

Thankfully, Christ died for that sin as well.

Not just that sin, but all sins past, present, and future.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I don't pledge allegiance to cotton, and I certainly don't pledge anything to this piece of shit country.

[Antischism]

I have a lot of respect for Jehovah's Witnesses. They don't partake in politics because they view it as corrupt and always refuse to pledge allegiance.

[mrsat_98]

I don't pledge allegiance to cotton, and I certainly don't pledge anything to this piece of shit country.

<sarcasm on> Thank State, there is not many of you m'fers !! <sarcasm off>

[MRK]

Assuming 180 public school days a year, I've probably stood for the pledge over a thousand times.

I noticed in elementary school I was the first kid who stopped reciting the pledge when we stood to recite it.

After I noticed I could 'get away' with this, I stopped putting my hand over my heart.

But, when I didn't get up out of my seat to stand for the pledge, my overlords would always insist that I get up and tell me to stand up.

They broke me in pretty easily. I tried this for two or three classes in elementary school or middle school and was shamed into standing each time. After that, I would always stand, sometimes not put my hand over my heart.

I mean, I didn't want to look like an unpatriotic rebel punk, so I never made an issue out of it or protested by telling my overlords that I had the right not to pledge. It's hard to disregard peer pressure at that age. Good for that kid. But, I'm sure he had a good moral support network at home that invigorated his resolve. Thank goodness for good parents.

[LibertyEagle]

I don't pledge allegiance to cotton, and I certainly don't pledge anything to this piece of shit country.

You hate this country???? It's one thing to hate the people who have hijacked our government; it's quite another to hate the country.

[ClydeCoulter]

You hate this country???? It's one thing to hate the people who have hijacked our government; it's quite another to hate the country.

The land mass, the people, the various cultures, the federal government, the state governments, the local governments, the policies toward people at home and abroad, the apathy, the policies toward other "countries", the....the country?

Hijacked by who? Other people in this country who are like other people in this country?

It's more complicated than, what you hate this....

[LibertyEagle]

The land mass, the people, the various cultures, the federal government, the state governments, the local governments, the policies toward people at home and abroad, the apathy, the policies toward other "countries", the....the country?

Hijacked by who? Other people in this country who are like other people in this country?

It's more complicated than, what you hate this....

I love my country and the principles upon which it was founded. Which is why I am trying so hard to save it. I detest the crooks who have hijacked our government, ignore the Constitution and enrich themselves through lies, theft, crony-capitalism and downright traitorous acts.

Those who hate the country, whether they realize it or not, are on the same side as those who are actively trying to destroy our country and take it into world government. No, they may not realize it, but that would only make them what has frequently been called useful idiots by their comrades in the globalist cause.

Ron Paul damn sure doesn't hate the country.

[tod evans]

I suppose it all depends on which lens one uses to view "our country"....

What it has become is despicable.

What it was (as little as 40 years ago) wasn't so bad.

What it started out as was commendable.

[shane77m]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

A good alternative?

[PierzStyx]

What really disgusts me is the various comments at the bottom. People insults JW's because they refuse to salute the flag, people calling or their deportation, people calling for the state to punish the kid, people insulting his parents and the boy. Its sickening. The post wresting teh scriptures to justify flag worship especially so. One of the ideas the internet disabused me of early on was that idiocy was localized, that this statist mindset and abuse was rare.

[moostraks]

I love my country and the principles upon which it was founded. Which is why I am trying so hard to save it. I detest the crooks who have hijacked our government, ignore the Constitution and enrich themselves through lies, theft, crony-capitalism and downright traitorous acts.

Those who hate the country, whether they realize it or not, are on the same side as those who are actively trying to destroy our country and take it into world government. No, they may not realize it, but that would only make them what has frequently been called useful idiots by their comrades in the globalist cause.

Ron Paul damn sure doesn't hate the country.

With Native American ancestors on both sides, call me a bit jaded as to how wonderful this country has been from its inception. I'm no useful idiot for the global cause. To say that to anyone who supports the ideas of liberty is a knee jerk reaction imo to shame them into following your ideals rather than their own path. It's like saying your racist. Some of us are trying to make the best of a bad situation but don't hold to the patriotic propaganda that was forced upon us regarding those glorious early years. Not looking to burst any bubbles but history books are written by the victors for a reason.

[Bossobass]

Just another brick removed from the Constitutional foundation by the oblivious TV-watchers.

Freedom of Religion… unless you don't stand with hand on heart and recite your pledge of allegiance to the Golden Calf.

In that case, we'll deport your lethally-injected corpse and hang your parents.

[Shane Harris]

and of course this holy founding document was written by a socialist prog in 1892, and not even adopted until the 1940s. And the 'Under God' bit that every republican loses sleep over was added in the 1950s. Ugh

[Cleaner44]

This is as good of time as any to drop in the ole Bellamy salute:

http://rexcurry.net/pledge-utah2.jpg

[asurfaholic]

Anyone have any experience with forbidding your children from saying the pledge?

I'm pretty much sure my girl will be in public school, but I plan on being active in certain areas. One thing i am contemplating is whether or not I will forbid her from saying the pledge. Seems kinda slippery, not sure if its the right thing to do to subject her to extra attention and scrutinity, but then again I don't want her to be grow up confused. If I start her young she will know that the flag does not deserve her "pledge" nor does any person possess the right to force her to say a pledge. Irony being, I'm telling her what not to say.

But I want her to understand. Any input?

[ZENemy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpxd3pZAVHI

[Bossobass]

Anyone have any experience with forbidding your children from saying the pledge?

I'm pretty much sure my girl will be in public school, but I plan on being active in certain areas. One thing i am contemplating is whether or not I will forbid her from saying the pledge. Seems kinda slippery, not sure if its the right thing to do to subject her to extra attention and scrutinity, but then again I don't want her to be grow up confused. If I start her young she will know that the flag does not deserve her "pledge" nor does any person possess the right to force her to say a pledge. Irony being, I'm telling her what not to say.

But I want her to understand. Any input?

"Forbidding" your child to pledge is the same as the school "insisting" she do it.

Pledging allegiance to anything is a serious and personal matter that can't be decided without the pertinent information input. The whole "do it because I said so" thing NEVER works. It ends in rebellion against the edict or an empty pledge, neither being beneficial to your girl.

A parent's job is to provide the pertinent information and let the kid decide for him/her self. IMO, teaching her to decide such matters for herself is the best lesson you can teach her. Trust me, once she makes her own decision, neither hell nor high water will dissuade her. It will then be on you to show up and support her decision, making it clear to whomever calls her to the mat that it is her decision and that they have no power over that decision.

If her defense is "Daddy won't let me", then it's epic fail.

FYI, the pledge case was decided (overturning previous courts rulings) by SCOTUS in 1943 in favor of Jehovah's Witnesses v a school district in W Va (IIRC). The Witnesses were physically attacked, their property was destroyed, their businesses were boycotted… across the country, over this issue. And, it all began with a 3rd grader who was expelled for refusing to pledge allegiance to a flag.

[pcosmar]

You hate this country???? It's one thing to hate the people who have hijacked our government; it's quite another to hate the country.

A Constitutional Republic is something I have never known.

This country is an Authoritarian Socialist Democracy. Whats to love?

[pcosmar]

this goes here,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okPnDZ1Txlo

[LibertyEagle]

With Native American ancestors on both sides, call me a bit jaded as to how wonderful this country has been from its inception. I'm no useful idiot for the global cause. To say that to anyone who supports the ideas of liberty is a knee jerk reaction imo to shame them into following your ideals rather than their own path. It's like saying your racist. Some of us are trying to make the best of a bad situation but don't hold to the patriotic propaganda that was forced upon us regarding those glorious early years. Not looking to burst any bubbles but history books are written by the victors for a reason.

You are not alone with your Native American ancestry, so your argument doesn't hold water with me. I still don't hate my country. I hate those who have hijacked it.

By the way, there are all kinds of history books out there. If you go to the effort, you can find good ones that are quite different than what is taught in schools.

If you do not love your country, how can you fight to save it?

[Christian Liberty]

Not just that sin, but all sins past, present, and future.

Yes, I know.


Assuming 180 public school days a year, I've probably stood for the pledge over a thousand times.

I noticed in elementary school I was the first kid who stopped reciting the pledge when we stood to recite it.

After I noticed I could 'get away' with this, I stopped putting my hand over my heart.

But, when I didn't get up out of my seat to stand for the pledge, my overlords would always insist that I get up and tell me to stand up.

They broke me in pretty easily. I tried this for two or three classes in elementary school or middle school and was shamed into standing each time. After that, I would always stand, sometimes not put my hand over my heart.

I mean, I didn't want to look like an unpatriotic rebel punk, so I never made an issue out of it or protested by telling my overlords that I had the right not to pledge. It's hard to disregard peer pressure at that age. Good for that kid. But, I'm sure he had a good moral support network at home that invigorated his resolve. Thank goodness for good parents.

Yeah, moral support at home makes a difference.

I love my country and the principles upon which it was founded. Which is why I am trying so hard to save it. I detest the crooks who have hijacked our government, ignore the Constitution and enrich themselves through lies, theft, crony-capitalism and downright traitorous acts.

Those who hate the country, whether they realize it or not, are on the same side as those who are actively trying to destroy our country and take it into world government. No, they may not realize it, but that would only make them what has frequently been called useful idiots by their comrades in the globalist cause.

Ron Paul damn sure doesn't hate the country.

I get what you're saying, and I get what he was saying as well.

"Patriotism" these days has become codeword for "Support your government no matter what it does." On the other hand, you're defining "Love for your country" as love for what the Founders stood for. So I don't think you guys really mean the same thing when you say "country."


What really disgusts me is the various comments at the bottom. People insults JW's because they refuse to salute the flag, people calling or their deportation, people calling for the state to punish the kid, people insulting his parents and the boy. Its sickening. The post wresting teh scriptures to justify flag worship especially so. One of the ideas the internet disabused me of early on was that idiocy was localized, that this statist mindset and abuse was rare.

Yeah, for all the things wrong with JWs they pick that one;)

[angelatc]

I don't pledge allegiance to cotton, and I certainly don't pledge anything to this piece of shit country.

Bryans TOS prohibit me from inserting two words here.

[Ender]

I love my country and the principles upon which it was founded. Which is why I am trying so hard to save it. I detest the crooks who have hijacked our government, ignore the Constitution and enrich themselves through lies, theft, crony-capitalism and downright traitorous acts.

Those who hate the country, whether they realize it or not, are on the same side as those who are actively trying to destroy our country and take it into world government. No, they may not realize it, but that would only make them what has frequently been called useful idiots by their comrades in the globalist cause.

Ron Paul damn sure doesn't hate the country.

You DO know that the Constitution was a coup take over of the united States, right? And that most of what we read about the Articles of Confederation and of that time period are bogus?

[angelatc]

You DO know that the Constitution was a coup take over of the united States, right? And that most of what we read about the Articles of Confederation and of that time period are bogus?

So you're calling Tom Woods a liar?

[Snew]

Wow, kudos to the little guy. He's got more guts than most adults do. :cool:

[moostraks]

You are not alone with your Native American ancestry, so your argument doesn't hold water with me. I still don't hate my country. I hate those who have hijacked it.

By the way, there are all kinds of history books out there. If you go to the effort, you can find good ones that are quite different than what is taught in schools.

If you do not love your country, how can you fight to save it?


Did I say I was alone? Nope, so must be you reading something into things so you can argue a point I didn't make. If you can ignore the atrocities committed to form the ideals you think are so worthy so be it. Doesn't mean I do, and I offered it up as a legitimate argument against your position.

Yep, I've done plenty of hunting and own plenty of old history books and most of the ones we were programmed by are propaganda driven pieces of drivel to instill a false sense of allegiance to an ideal that never really was except for a select minority. Those would be the ones I was referring to and which seemed to have formed your basis for the only reason liberty lovers are entitled to an opinion lest they be called "useful idiots". It appears you think you can foist upon others a shaming based along these same ideals.

I have 8 children and that is why I want liberty, for them more so than myself. Doesn't mean I have to fight for some nostalgic utopia that seems to be your driving force. True liberty doesn't come from shaming people into accepting your beliefs as their driving force but allowing them to have their own motivating factors.

[Ender]

So you're calling Tom Woods a liar?

So, you're putting words in my mouth that I never said? Sweet "angel" atec.

[Ender]

With Native American ancestors on both sides, call me a bit jaded as to how wonderful this country has been from its inception. I'm no useful idiot for the global cause. To say that to anyone who supports the ideas of liberty is a knee jerk reaction imo to shame them into following your ideals rather than their own path. It's like saying your racist. Some of us are trying to make the best of a bad situation but don't hold to the patriotic propaganda that was forced upon us regarding those glorious early years. Not looking to burst any bubbles but history books are written by the victors for a reason.

As a Cherokee/Lumbee I wholeheartedly agree. The "history" of early America is filled with lies and deception.

That saying, I believe in the principles of freedom and liberty and will stand with those, such as Ron Paul, who do.

[Cutlerzzz]

There was never a time where this country was free. The natives were massacred in the beginning, blacks were enslaved, gays, immigrants, and others faced persecution. They also had to pay tariffs and excise taxes, and lost the right to freedom of speech during the countries founding.

[AuH20]

There was never a time where this country was free. The natives were massacred in the beginning, blacks were enslaved, gays, immigrants, and others faced persecution. They also had to pay tariffs and excise taxes, and lost the right to freedom of speech during the countries founding.

Comparatively free to the old world it broke free from. Secondly, the romantic notion about the Noble Savage or the intentional burying of the West African slave trade is comical to say the least. Where humans reside, you will find tyranny, though your mileage will vary by locale.

[asurfaholic]

"Forbidding" your child to pledge is the same as the school "insisting" she do it.

Pledging allegiance to anything is a serious and personal matter that can't be decided without the pertinent information input. The whole "do it because I said so" thing NEVER works. It ends in rebellion against the edict or an empty pledge, neither being beneficial to your girl.

A parent's job is to provide the pertinent information and let the kid decide for him/her self. IMO, teaching her to decide such matters for herself is the best lesson you can teach her. Trust me, once she makes her own decision, neither hell nor high water will dissuade her. It will then be on you to show up and support her decision, making it clear to whomever calls her to the mat that it is her decision and that they have no power over that decision.

If her defense is "Daddy won't let me", then it's epic fail.

FYI, the pledge case was decided (overturning previous courts rulings) by SCOTUS in 1943 in favor of Jehovah's Witnesses v a school district in W Va (IIRC). The Witnesses were physically attacked, their property was destroyed, their businesses were boycotted… across the country, over this issue. And, it all began with a 3rd grader who was expelled for refusing to pledge allegiance to a flag.

Well, I disagree with the first sentence on the grounds that a parent has more authority over a child than a school. I can forbid my child from doing anything that I deem not healthy for her.

The rest of it i agree. That's why I don't want to just disallow it, I want her to understand the gravity of it. I think that the pledge is a great opportunity to teach some lessons on individuality, but age is a concern.

[acptulsa]

I suppose it all depends on which lens one uses to view "our country"....

What it has become is despicable.

What it was (as little as 40 years ago) wasn't so bad.

What it started out as was commendable.

I was a kid in public school back then. There was a guy in my class in the early seventies who was Jehovah's Witness. He stood, as much out of courtesy as anything else (no one required him to), but didn't cover his heart or recite. If anyone asked, we were told it was a religious belief and that we were not to harass him over it. No one did.

That was, in fact, exactly forty years ago. To see something that was solved back then re-emerge as a problem today just makes my blood boil.

Yes, this was a better nation forty years ago. No, it hasn't just been Republicans who have forced this situation upon us. Liberal intolerance really has played just as big a role. There's a reason many people say this nation is headed in the wrong direction.

The problem is, the media has done such a good job of convincing us that each little step down the road to ruin was harmless enough by itself that most people can't tell you how we got into this mess. This is our challenge. If only we can help people see how our freedoms were incrementally robbed from us, we can accomplish the awakening which is our sacred cause.

[Danke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOv4g552h5E

[Ender]

Comparatively free to the old world it broke free from. Secondly, the romantic notion about the Noble Savage or the intentional burying of the West African slave trade is comical to say the least. Where humans reside, you will find tyranny, though your mileage will vary by locale.

The ignorant ill-read American notion about Indian "savages" would also be comical, if it were not so sad and ridiculous.

Here's a pretty good summary of who the American Indians really were:

http://www.cracked.com/article_19864_6-ridiculous-lies-you-believe-about-founding-america.html

[AuH20]

The ignorant ill-read American notion about Indian "savages" would also be comical, if it were not so sad and ridiculous.

Here's a pretty good summary of who the American Indians really were:

http://www.cracked.com/article_19864_6-ridiculous-lies-you-believe-about-founding-america.html

I'm saying that there has been a myth perpertrated that the "Indians" were generally not prone to violence, plunder or slavery when it's simply not true. Do people honestly believe that human malice arrived to the continent when the Europeans migrated? Are they that delusional? I'm not condoning the heinous acts of the colonial powers upon the natives, but let's be serious here with the revisionism that has took place.

[brushfire]

You are not alone with your Native American ancestry, so your argument doesn't hold water with me. I still don't hate my country. I hate those who have hijacked it.

By the way, there are all kinds of history books out there. If you go to the effort, you can find good ones that are quite different than what is taught in schools.

If you do not love your country, how can you fight to save it?

This is my take as well. Its like a substance abusing family member... There are clearly some problems, some of which are catastrophic, but you dont dare give up on them. I pledge my allegiance to those who protect my rights in order to save their own, and I fully reciprocate my respect to the little boy who refuses to recite the pledge, if that's his choice (family's choice). I love my country very much, and I would love nothing more than to see those who have tried to destroy it burn in hell.

Having said all that, there will always be leaders and followers... Its in our DNA, and its this tribalism that creates the conditions ripe for tyranny... So these problems we are seeing today, while they are at a scale that's never been seen before, are the same problems that have plagued man throughout history. Its why the constitution is not some dated relic of government. As someone who has owned an "unfixed" cat might attest, instinct is easy to exploit, and is very painful to counter. Man is no exception, with its instinct to gravitate towards tribalism and social hierarchy. Its probably easier to cats in heat to quit spraying around the house, than it is to get some people to accept individual rights and liberty... Too bad we cant take freedom haters to the vet to be "fixed" (just kidding of course).

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Bryans TOS prohibit me from inserting two words here.


Heh heh, you big government Republicans are funny.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

You hate this country???? It's one thing to hate the people who have hijacked our government; it's quite another to hate the country.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I can get worked up, but I know better than to let someone else define something. It's sort of like letting evangelicals define a deity, or another group defining what the flag is all about.

The best I can say is that I live here. That, in and of itself, is not a source of pride. The pride comes with who you are and what you do. Shit like that.

Anyway, I don't necessarily have firm attachments in these areas any more. Love is more reserved for people. Maybe your dog too (heh).

[Romulus]

We had JW in our class... they never stood. No one cared, we respected their position and that was the end of it.

Fucking zealots now a days think differently.

[Pericles]

You DO know that the Constitution was a coup take over of the united States, right? And that most of what we read about the Articles of Confederation and of that time period are bogus?

Because you read stuff from some guys who told you that the stuff written by other guys was wrong?

[Snew]

There was never a time where this country was free. The natives were massacred in the beginning, blacks were enslaved, gays, immigrants, and others faced persecution. They also had to pay tariffs and excise taxes, and lost the right to freedom of speech during the countries founding.
Spot on.

[Ender]

Because you read stuff from some guys who told you that the stuff written by other guys was wrong?

No.

Because I actually know how to read- how 'bout you?

[Keith and stuff]

The investigation added that McDonald said she doesn’t believe it’s a good practice to regularly place hands on students but does feel strongly that a U.S. citizen should show respect to the flag.
How does she feel about all of the non-US citizens that are in government schools? Does she give the illegals a pass?

[PierzStyx]

"Forbidding" your child to pledge is the same as the school "insisting" she do it.




Not at all. That si called "parenting."

[FloralScent]

The ignorant ill-read American notion about Indian "savages" would also be comical, if it were not so sad and ridiculous.

Here's a pretty good summary of who the American Indians really were:

http://www.cracked.com/article_19864_6-ridiculous-lies-you-believe-about-founding-america.html


I have Wagon Burner blood from my mother and father but that doesn't blind me to the fact that they were fucking ruthless killers who tortured their captives. I ain't talking about some sissified waterboarding either.

[DamianTV]

Cant have us no Iconoclasts in skool at that age, regardless of faith.

[paulbot24]

I was raised a JW and I never stood up for the pledge of allegiance growing up. It's good practice as a JW to let the teacher know or have the child give the teacher a note from the parents on the first day of class every year so they know it is not a sign of belligerence and that it has to do with their religion. I never had a problem. Now I'm just belligerent....:)