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green73
11-04-2013, 10:37 AM
While taking a walk one day, legally open carrying a firearm, Christopher Proescher was stopped by police, questioned and arrested. The local prosecutor, seeing the Mr. Proeshcer committed no crime dropped all charges. In response to the false arrest Proescher reasonably filed a lawsuit against the officers.

Fast forward to Federal judge William S. Duffey Jr. who made the inane decision that while the arresting officers were wrong in arresting Proescher (you know, because he didn’t break any laws) that carrying a pistol openly constitutes reasonable suspicion of a crime, which authorizes officers to detain the person who is carrying and as such the officers acted properly.

Allow me to rephrase: By exercising your legal right, you have forfeited your 4th Amendment Rights and as such will be subject to detention and false arrest with no recourse.

That is what Judge Duffey has ruled.

cont.
http://bulletsfirst.net/2013/11/03/federal-judge-rules-lawfully-exercising-right-nullification-4th-amendment/

http://www.examiner.com/article/carrying-a-gun-is-now-reasonable-suspicion-of-a-crime

ZENemy
11-04-2013, 10:41 AM
Viable solutions are impossible from within the system, because the system is the problem

shane77m
11-04-2013, 10:44 AM
Next "Open carrying of a firearm is enough for an officer to determine his life is in danger and can use deadly force instead of first using non lethal means."

TomtheTinker
11-04-2013, 10:49 AM
Disgusting slob elitist wil have their time.

Tod
11-04-2013, 10:53 AM
If this is not overturned, then I will have lost the last remaining vestiges of faith in a peaceful resolution to the problem of tyranny.

asurfaholic
11-04-2013, 10:57 AM
This is clearly a bad ruling. Moving forward, will this get appealed?

And

How to strip the judge of the position?

Dr.3D
11-04-2013, 10:58 AM
Emmm... clearly, wearing a black robe is reasonable suspicion of a crime.

kill the banks
11-04-2013, 10:59 AM
If this is not overturned, then I will have lost the last remaining vestiges of faith in a peaceful resolution to the problem of tyranny.

things are just getting to the point where you have to wonder ... I only hope behind the scenes the good guys luck out

http://scully13.wordpress.com/ men of dark intentions

BuddyRey
11-04-2013, 11:00 AM
Doesn't this directly clash with prior Supreme Court rulings?

ZENemy
11-04-2013, 11:00 AM
This is clearly a bad ruling. Moving forward, will this get appealed?

And

How to strip the judge of the position?

lol.

Sorry, I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing at the idea of justice coming from a higher court, or the judge being treated as if he did anything wrong and being stripped of his position.

The judge probably got a bonus.

Cleaner44
11-04-2013, 11:17 AM
Next "Open carrying of a firearm is enough for an officer to determine his life is in danger and can use deadly force instead of first using non lethal means."

13 year old child shot and killed for open carrying a fake firearm. (http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/24/justice/california-fake-rifle-boy-killed/)

shane77m
11-04-2013, 11:24 AM
13 year old child shot and killed for open carrying a fake firearm. (http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/24/justice/california-fake-rifle-boy-killed/)

Ahhh. Come on now. They did order him to drop the weapon first......:toady:

chudrockz
11-04-2013, 11:26 AM
Now imagine someone open-carrying AND walking down the street with their toy poodle on a leash! Oh my Lord, terrorists!! You'd have CNN and Faux News going nuts with "alerts"!

Christian Liberty
11-04-2013, 11:26 AM
If this is not overturned, then I will have lost the last remaining vestiges of faith in a peaceful resolution to the problem of tyranny.

Yep. I've given up on politics. Its useless. I'll just spend my time trying to teach people how evil the government they support is.

shane77m
11-04-2013, 11:28 AM
Now imagine someone open-carrying AND walking down the street with their toy poodle on a leash! Oh my Lord, terrorists!! You'd have CNN and Faux News going nuts with "alerts"!

Or if you just happen to have on a Ron Paul shirt or cap. Instantly greased with no warnings.

Probably not a bad idea if you are going to open carry, to wear some type of body armor. The cops are more dangerous than the thugs.

JK/SEA
11-04-2013, 11:29 AM
Yep. I've given up on politics. Its useless. I'll just spend my time trying to teach people how evil the government they support is.

don't do politics?...no worries...politics will do you.

chudrockz
11-04-2013, 11:29 AM
Or if you just happen to have on a Ron Paul shirt or cap. Instantly greased with no warnings.

Probably not a bad idea if you are going to open carry, to wear some type of body armor. The cops are more dangerous than the thugs.

Isn't there some law against mundanes wearing body armor? Or was that just proposed? I may be getting confused with Minnesota state also, I think a proposal to ban it in state went down in flames awhile back.

Christian Liberty
11-04-2013, 11:30 AM
don't do politics?...no worries...politics will do you.

I'm not saying don't, I'm just saying its not really useful. Ron Paul was mostly useless from a political perspective, yet he had huge success educationally. I think any who would follow him into politics should do what he did.

shane77m
11-04-2013, 11:31 AM
Isn't there some law against mundanes wearing body armor? Or was that just proposed? I may be getting confused with Minnesota state also, I think a proposal to ban it in state went down in flames awhile back.

Wouldn't surprise me if there is. Could always get one of those bulletproof backpacks.

buck000
11-04-2013, 11:32 AM
Soooo, LEOs openly carrying create reasonable suspicion of a crime occurring?

Wait, that sounds about right, in all too many cases... ;)

chudrockz
11-04-2013, 11:33 AM
Soooo, LEOs openly carrying create reasonable suspicion of a crime occurring?

Wait, that sounds about right, in all too many cases... ;)

Maybe someone in Anytown, USA should try to do a citizen's arrest of all local law enforcement officers on that basis! :)

Or for their own safety, maybe not.

seraphson
11-04-2013, 12:07 PM
I can't find it now but I'm pretty sure there was a court decision from some time ago that said it's not probably cause.

aGameOfThrones
11-04-2013, 12:11 PM
“The carrying of arms in a quiet, peaceable, and orderly manner, concealed on or about the person, is not a breach of the peace. Nor does such an act of itself, lead to a breach of the peace.” (Wharton’s Criminal and Civil Procedure, 12th Ed., Vol.2: Judy v. Lashley, 5 W. Va. 628, 41 S.E. 197)

AFPVet
11-04-2013, 12:13 PM
As a former cop, I can tell you that the WAY that the weapon is carried that may cause suspicion. If Joe Blow is carrying his weapon in a properly secured holster, why would I think anything of it? Conversely, if I see Dude Thug carrying a weapon in his waste band, it's a different story.

kwikrnu
11-04-2013, 12:36 PM
I have been keeping up with Chris Proescher since he was arrested. I have links to many of the documents on my website. I claim it is the most complete concerning Chris and the unlawful acts of the cops.

http://www.kwikrnuarms.com/christopher_allen_proescher.htm

kwikrnu
11-04-2013, 12:38 PM
As a former cop, I can tell you that the WAY that the weapon is carried that may cause suspicion. If Joe Blow is carrying his weapon in a properly secured holster, why would I think anything of it? Conversely, if I see Dude Thug carrying a weapon in his waste band, it's a different story.

Profile based on race and looks is despicable. If one can't afford a holster they must be guilty of something...

kwikrnu
11-04-2013, 12:40 PM
Probably not a bad idea if you are going to open carry, to wear some type of body armor. The cops are more dangerous than the thugs.

I have always received "special" attention from cops when I open carry. I started wearing body armor while carrying and it got worse...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRVgFQ4P1Sw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QScD986-UZE

Ronin Truth
11-04-2013, 12:53 PM
Being federal judge Duffey is a reasonable suspicion of a fascist tyrant. :p

ZENemy
11-04-2013, 12:58 PM
I have always received "special" attention from cops when I open carry. I started wearing body armor while carrying and it got worse...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRVgFQ4P1Sw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QScD986-UZE


Great videos.

AFPVet
11-04-2013, 01:30 PM
Profile based on race and looks is despicable. If one can't afford a holster they must be guilty of something...

It's negligent carry of a firearm. Holster it! If you can't afford a $20 holster, but can afford a $500 gun, I don't know what to tell you.

aGameOfThrones
11-04-2013, 01:52 PM
It's negligent carry of a firearm. Holster it! If you can't afford a $20 holster, but can afford a $500 gun, I don't know what to tell you.

But is not having a holster suspicion that a crime is about to be committed and thus grounds for arrest?

Ronin Truth
11-04-2013, 02:00 PM
It's negligent carry of a firearm. Holster it! If you can't afford a $20 holster, but can afford a $500 gun, I don't know what to tell you.

You can go a long way with a smile. You can go a lot farther with a smile and a gun. (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/quote/761.html) -- Al Capone :D

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
11-04-2013, 02:27 PM
Fast forward to Federal judge William S. Duffey Jr. who made the inane decision that while the arresting officers were wrong in arresting Proescher (you know, because he didn’t break any laws) that carrying a pistol openly constitutes reasonable suspicion of a crime, which authorizes officers to detain the person who is carrying and as such the officers acted properly.


Actually, this is awesome. There will be a lot of cops arresting cops. I hope all those armed standoffs don't result in a ton of deaths.

AFPVet
11-04-2013, 03:21 PM
But is not having a holster suspicion that a crime is about to be committed and thus grounds for arrest?

Hell no! It's just one of my pet peeves. If you haven't committed a crime (there must be a victim), I don't care. If a cop stopped me while I was in plain clothes with my weapon in a secured holster, I would be PISSED!

NorthCarolinaLiberty
11-04-2013, 03:24 PM
Yes, of course Judge Dunce, because criminals always open carry.

The Just Us system not only has disdain for you--they also have no common sense.

devil21
11-04-2013, 03:26 PM
It's a District Court ruling so it has no impact on any other case and is not precedent. If the plaintiff decides to appeal, THEN whatever the appeals court ruling is would be considered precedent for future federal cases. A wrong ruling, yes, and the judge knows it's the wrong ruling, but at least it has no legal bearing outside of that particular case. Looks to me like a strategic ruling to prevent the case from moving forward but also to prevent the plaintiff from appealing.

eta: After reading the judge's ruling, Georgia is a Stop-and-Identify state so the cop can ask for ID. I posted about open carry related to Stop and ID in this thread and the content is worth a repost here. It is important to know if your state is a stop and ID state before you open carry!!!

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?427861-Watch-what-Happens-when-a-Pair-of-Girls-Open-Carry-in-a-Walmart&highlight=identify



It is really important for those that open carry to know if they live in Stop and Identify states and the state laws about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes (The Detention section is the most pertinent since the cop has detained you because of your gun)

Missouri is listed as a stop and identify state so a cop asking for your ID without direct suspicion of a crime is generally acceptable under state law. The other videos that you see where the open carrier refuses to show ID are usually in states without stop and identify laws and therefore the cop has no legal authority to check your ID solely on basis of open carrying (if open carry is legal in that state).

The reasons for the ID checks are to run the person through NCIC to check for felony convictions or other notations that would make possession of the gun a criminal offense, thus leading to seizure of the gun and arrest of the carrier. Of course it's also a check for warrants and other "Wanted" notations unrelated to the open carry.

In my state, there is no stop and ID law and open carry is 100% legal so I would handle that same situation differently than someone in Missouri.

Occam's Banana
11-04-2013, 03:38 PM
Walking down the street? Reasonable suspicion of a crime ... (you might be going to or coming from a crime scene) ...

Breathing? Reasonable suspicion of a crime ... (breathing supplies oxygen to the brain, which is used to decide to commit a crime) ...

Carrying a gun while walking down the street and breathing?? Well, now you're just rubbing their faces in it!! :eek:

JK/SEA
11-04-2013, 03:51 PM
It's negligent carry of a firearm. Holster it! If you can't afford a $20 holster, but can afford a $500 gun, I don't know what to tell you.

what if its a 20$ gun and a 500$ holster?

AFPVet
11-04-2013, 03:53 PM
what if its a 20$ gun and a 500$ holster?

ROFLMAO:toady:

jtap
11-04-2013, 03:55 PM
It's a District Court ruling so it has no impact on any other case and is not precedent. If the plaintiff decides to appeal, THEN whatever the appeals court ruling is would be considered precedent for future federal cases. A wrong ruling, yes, and the judge knows it's the wrong ruling, but at least it has no legal bearing outside of that particular case. Looks to me like a strategic ruling to prevent the case from moving forward but also to prevent the plaintiff from appealing.

eta: After reading the judge's ruling, Georgia is a Stop-and-Identify state so the cop can ask for ID. I posted about open carry related to Stop and ID in this thread and the content is worth a repost here. It is important to know if your state is a stop and ID state before you open carry!!!

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?427861-Watch-what-Happens-when-a-Pair-of-Girls-Open-Carry-in-a-Walmart&highlight=identify

way too many un-free states in that picture on wikipedia. thanks for the info no matter how depressing.

Dr.3D
11-04-2013, 03:57 PM
ROFLMAO:toady:

Well, I just paid $168 for my new holster. Some of them are pretty expensive.
I ordered it three weeks ago and they told me they didn't have any in stock and there would be three weeks lead time for the factory to make one. I wish they would hurry up and ship it.

jtap
11-04-2013, 04:00 PM
Walking down the street? Reasonable suspsicion of a crime ... (you might be going to or coming from a crime scene) ...

Breathing? Reasonable suspsicion of a crime ... (breathing supplies oxygen to the brain, which is used to decide to commit a crime) ...

Carrying a gun while walking down the street and breathing?? Well, now you're just rubbing their faces in it!! :eek:

Exactly. Reasonable suspicion seems to grant them the freedom to do what they want, especially in stop-and-identify states.

aGameOfThrones
11-04-2013, 04:17 PM
(a) A person commits the offense of loitering or prowling when he is in a place at a time or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals under circumstances that warrant a justifiable and reasonable alarm or immediate concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity.

(b) Among the circumstances which may be considered in determining whether alarm is warranted is the fact that the person takes flight upon the appearance of a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself, or manifestly endeavors to conceal himself or any object. Unless flight by the person or other circumstances make it impracticable, a law enforcement officer shall, prior to any arrest for an offense under this Code section, afford the person an opportunity to dispel any alarm or immediate concern which would otherwise be warranted by requesting the person to identify himself and explain his presence and conduct. No person shall be convicted of an offense under this Code section if the law enforcement officer failed to comply with the foregoing procedure or if it appears at trial that the explanation given by the person was true and would have dispelled the alarm or immediate concern.

(c) A person committing the offense of loitering or prowling shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

(d) This Code section shall not be deemed or construed to affect or limit the powers of counties or municipal corporations to adopt ordinances or resolutions prohibiting loitering or prowling within their respective limits.

devil21
11-04-2013, 04:17 PM
kpitcher posted this thread in the Bearing Arms forum and it shows how these stop-and-id state laws affect the entire outcome of a police encounter over open carry.

This guy sued over a police stop because of his open carry in Oregon. Oregon has no stop-and-id law, unlike Georgia. He was given $5000 settlement.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?432315-Open-gun-carrier-wins-settlement-in-Corvallis-unlawful-detainment-case

DamianTV
11-04-2013, 05:17 PM
In a way, this fucking moron of a Judge is completely correct. Just look at the Cops.

Im half ass tempted to extend this to anyone who carries a Utility Belt of Death.

ctiger2
11-04-2013, 06:42 PM
I agree with the Federal Judge. All these Federal employees carrying guns have most likely committed crimes or will commit future crimes.

TSA, IRS, NSA, FBI, DHS, CIA, etc. All criminals or criminals to be.