States Move to Tax Miles Driven With Black Boxes In Cars

[donnay]

States Move to Tax Miles Driven With Black Boxes In Cars

Evan Halper
L.A. Times
October 27, 2013

As America’s road planners struggle to find the cash to mend a crumbling highway system, many are beginning to see a solution in a little black box that fits neatly by the dashboard of your car.

The devices, which track every mile a motorist drives and transmit that information to bureaucrats, are at the center of a controversial attempt in Washington and state planning offices to overhaul the outdated system for funding America’s major roads.

The usually dull arena of highway planning has suddenly spawned intense debate and colorful alliances. Libertarians have joined environmental groups in lobbying to allow government to use the little boxes to keep track of the miles you drive, and possibly where you drive them — then use the information to draw up a tax bill.

Read more (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-roads-black-boxes-20131027,0,6090226.story#axzz2ix2RncVc)

[GunnyFreedom]

If you must tax drivers to maintain roads, then something like a function of vehicle weight by tirepatch area by miles driven makes a heck of a lot more sense than a gas tax, but I DO NOT trust government stooges with the data they would gather in such a scheme as this. If they wanted to do that kind of thing, then they could calculate it straight from the odometer. They wouldn't need this 'black box' at all. The fact that they are even suggesting the black box suggests to me something nefarious. Or at best incompetent.

[phill4paul]

More emergency situation legislation in the pipe that'll cost citizens anonymity? Oh noes, the Highway Trust Fund is broke! Maybe it wouldn't be if we hadn't rebuilt Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Danke]

Libertarians have joined environmental groups in lobbying to allow government to use the little boxes to keep track of the miles you drive, and possibly where you drive them — then use the information to draw up a tax bill.


Which "Libertarians" are they talking to?

Fine, download my mileage (which I am against), but nothing else, like where I have been.

[HOLLYWOOD]

It's to FORCE the "OBEDIENT WORKERS" to commute, use state/Fed taxed/spent mass transit... just you watch. ALWAYS remember, Tax You means, Track You... you all have had front row seats to witnessed everything the government has done for turnkey tyranny. Tracking your locations, all your electronic communications, financial transactions, travel, 3 degrees of separations, dossiers on everyone, rubber stamped spying on 100s of thousands if not millions.

This tax will be designed in hiding the increases with FED/Washington DC induced inflation, just like so many... e.g. AMT

[qh4dotcom]

States are already collecting a tax for every mile driven....it's called the gasoline tax....the more miles you drive, the more gasoline you use and the more gasoline tax you pay.

[aGameOfThrones]

Yearly inspection that is currently done is less big brother than their track you black box to tax mileage, but that ain't the purpose of this would be new tax.

[Matt Collins]

Libertarians have joined environmental groups in lobbying to allow government to use the little boxes to keep track of the miles you drive, and possibly where you drive them — then use the information to draw up a tax bill.Really? :confused: :rolleyes:




*throws the BS flag*

[donnay]

This is not to tax you, it is to track you.

[WM_in_MO]

Libertarians have joined environmental groups in lobbying to allow government...

Bullshit.

[Carson]

Where'd the money go we already paid to fix the roads?

Maybe they should go after those that made off with it and those that allowed it.

[donnay]

Toll Roads and Double Taxation: The Left and Libertarians Converge
http://townhall.com/columnists/rachelalexander/2013/04/01/toll-roads-and-double-taxation-the-left-and-libertarians-converge-n1554365/page/full

[HOLLYWOOD]

Drive the company car... Corporations will be able to writeoff all usage of travel, while the peons are stolen from... there's so many examples of how this mileage tax is bad for liberty, freedom, and privacy.

AND even if they index it to the 'Cooked-Up" government inflation numbers, the individual will be screwed. Another notch in the holster of tyranny and taking every freedom away from the people.

These Marxists and their clever calculating thievery & spying need to be called out and stopped.


Man, I keep thinking about George Carlin and the 'Real Owners'... the line, "Your know what? They'll get it, they get it all... as long as Americans continue to remain willfully ignorant... The American Dream"

[jbauer]

Go for it goons. Tell the American people you're gonna track them...now if we were serious they are already tracking you via your cell phone

[specsaregood]

Which "Libertarians" are they talking to?


The Libertarian Party candidate for governor of VA supports the idea.

[ronpaulfollower999]

The problem with the gas tax is that you still aren't really paying for the roads you use. If I live in a border city (say Savannah, Ga), I could buy gas in Georgia (because it's cheaper and on the way) but do most of my driving in South Carolina. Georgia gets the tax revenue, even though I used South Carolina's roads.

[qh4dotcom]

The problem with the gas tax is that you still aren't really paying for the roads you use. If I live in a border city (say Savannah, Ga), I could buy gas in Georgia (because it's cheaper and on the way) but do most of my driving in South Carolina. Georgia gets the tax revenue, even though I used South Carolina's roads.

What about the Federal gas tax? In your example, South Carolina's roads could be maintained with Federal funding.

[Dr.3D]

If they are using GPS for this, I can think of a market for a programmed GPS signal unit that would make their box read anything you want it to.

[angelatc]

Yeah, this would seem to be the Libertarian solution. Don't know why they can't just use the odometer reading though.

[idiom]

Yeah, this would seem to be the Libertarian solution. Don't know why they can't just use the odometer reading though.

If you owned the road network, wouldn't you find it to be a huge competitive advantage to know where people were driving to and from? Without invading privacy you could have an enormous store of data to build a better road network than your competitors.

You also get to know exactly which drivers are speeding and becoming a menace to your other customers.

People would accept it too. They would immediately tick the okay box on their smart phone or black box the the contract so that they can use the fastest route.

[fr33]

None of the articles posted cited a libertarian that supports it, but they do smear libertarians with a baseless accusation. If the roads were privately owned, then sure, it's up to the owner. But they aren't. Every toll road to this date has been stolen via eminent domain and maintenance subsidized by tax-payers.

[angelatc]

If you owned the road network, wouldn't you find it to be a huge competitive advantage to know where people were driving to and from? Without invading privacy you could have an enormous store of data to build a better road network than your competitors.

You also get to know exactly which drivers are speeding and becoming a menace to your other customers.

People would accept it too. They would immediately tick the okay box on their smart phone or black box the the contract so that they can use the fastest route.

Yes, I guess you're right in that the Libertarian solution would actually be private roads.

[RM918]

So which retired government official's company will get to make all the boxes? That's why this is happening.

[mad cow]

Yeah, this would seem to be the Libertarian solution. Don't know why they can't just use the odometer reading though.

Yep,in Virginia our odometers are already checked and recorded at our annual inspections,it's right there on the lil pink slip they give you.

In States without annual inspections(jealous)it would take one minute to get this reading and it could be divided over 12 months,like our inspections are,so you wouldn't have to wait in long lines.

Roads have to be paid for and a usage tax is more fair than a general tax,somebody that doesn't drive should not have to pay the same as someone who drives 100,000 miles a year and some one who drives a motorcycle shouldn't have to pay as much as a Hummer driver.

However,two people who both drive cars that weigh 3500 lbs.should pay the same amount,regardless of gas milage.

I in no way support mandatory GPS black boxes to compute this mileage,it is nobody's business where you are driving and a simple odometer reading will show how many miles you have driven.

Miles that you drive out of State will be made up by out of State drivers in your State,or close enough.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

People would accept it too. They would immediately tick the okay box on their smart phone or black box the the contract so that they can use the fastest route.

I wouldn't. I already pay mandated car insurance, tax on gas, and tax just for owning a car every year. This is in additional to TOLLS and fees just for driving on highways. Then there's property tax, tax from inflation, sales tax, federal income tax, sales income tax, social security tax, tax on utilities, tax on telecommunications, inheritance tax, tax on gifts above a certain amount. How much more fucking money do they want? There's probably 500 other things I missed.

[angelatc]

Miles that you drive out of State will be made up by out of State drivers in your State,or close enough.

Yeah, I was trying to work through that in my head, and that works for me.

[Brian4Liberty]

If you must tax drivers to maintain roads, then something like a function of vehicle weight by tirepatch area by miles driven makes a heck of a lot more sense than a gas tax, but I DO NOT trust government stooges with the data they would gather in such a scheme as this. If they wanted to do that kind of thing, then they could calculate it straight from the odometer. They wouldn't need this 'black box' at all. The fact that they are even suggesting the black box suggests to me something nefarious. Or at best incompetent.

A gasoline tax is a rough approximation of that calculation. Plus it has the advantage of being dynamic in that it adjusts directly as load varies. It's also simple and less prone to fraud. And the final benefit from an environmental (and libertarian?) perspective is that it rewards efficiency.

[Brian4Liberty]

States Move to Tax Miles Driven With Black Boxes In Cars

Evan Halper
L.A. Times
October 27, 2013

As America’s road planners struggle to find the cash to mend a crumbling highway system, many are beginning to see a solution in a little black box that fits neatly by the dashboard of your car.

The devices, which track every mile a motorist drives and transmit that information to bureaucrats, are at the center of a controversial attempt in Washington and state planning offices to overhaul the outdated system for funding America’s major roads.

The usually dull arena of highway planning has suddenly spawned intense debate and colorful alliances. Libertarians have joined environmental groups in lobbying to allow government to use the little boxes to keep track of the miles you drive, and possibly where you drive them — then use the information to draw up a tax bill.

Read more (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-roads-black-boxes-20131027,0,6090226.story#axzz2ix2RncVc)

This is the worst idea since Obamacare.

- it will create an entire new bureaucracy.
- it will create a whole new burden of regulation, rules, laws and compliance on all drivers.
- it is corporatist in nature, as it will create a new, unnecessary industry purely by government fiat.
- it will violate privacy.

[Natural Citizen]

I really wish that genuine liberty minded people wouldn't be labeled as in agreement for something like this just because a small demograph of fascist thinkers have infiltrated. donnay's paper reminded me that the phenomenon exists among a great many issues as well. These are the minions who would have us trade in our constitution for a terms of service agreement. This is a destructive manner of repatriation.

[mad cow]

I really wish that genuine liberty minded people wouldn't be labeled as in agreement for something like this just because a small demograph of fascist thinkers have infiltrated.

There have been 29 replies to this thread.Care to point out the ones that are in favor of this?

[DamianTV]

Maybe we should first fix the Money System used to fund the crumbling Highway System?

[Natural Citizen]

There have been 29 replies to this thread.Care to point out the ones that are in favor of this?

Specifically, I mean that libertarianism is quickly becoming the stalking horse for fascism. That said, just open your eyes. Can spot them from a mile away.

[DamianTV]

If you must tax drivers to maintain roads, then something like a function of vehicle weight by tirepatch area by miles driven makes a heck of a lot more sense than a gas tax, but I DO NOT trust government stooges with the data they would gather in such a scheme as this. If they wanted to do that kind of thing, then they could calculate it straight from the odometer. They wouldn't need this 'black box' at all. The fact that they are even suggesting the black box suggests to me something nefarious. Or at best incompetent.

ODOMETER FTW

+Rep

What the FUCK do they need an expensive ass Black Box in your car for?

[mad cow]

Specifically, I mean that libertarianism is quickly becoming the stalking horse for fascism. That said, just open your eyes. Can spot them from a mile away.

Sorry,I must be slow on the uptake.Could you please point these fascists out to me?Seeing how you can spot them from a mile away and all.

[idiom]

I wouldn't. I already pay mandated car insurance, tax on gas, and tax just for owning a car every year. This is in additional to TOLLS and fees just for driving on highways. Then there's property tax, tax from inflation, sales tax, federal income tax, sales income tax, social security tax, tax on utilities, tax on telecommunications, inheritance tax, tax on gifts above a certain amount. How much more fucking money do they want? There's probably 500 other things I missed.

I am curious as to what sort of phone you use?

[idiom]

Yes, I guess you're right in that the Libertarian solution would actually be private roads.

So its okay when a private company does something efficient and fair, but not when the government does it with its own assets?

If you are using a resource, its the business of a resource owner to manage it and to charge you for it fairly.

I actually prefer government ownership of roads for this reason. All of the private road networks I have used have been far more invasive.

[donnay]

This is the worst idea since Obamacare.

- it will create an entire new bureaucracy.
- it will create a whole new burden of regulation, rules, laws and compliance on all drivers.
- it is corporatist in nature, as it will create a new, unnecessary industry purely by government fiat.
- it will violate privacy.

I agree. It would be an unmitigated disaster for liberty.

[nobody's_hero]

I don't even trust GM's OnStar. I refuse to buy vehicles with seatbelt warning alarms. (which is pretty much any new vehicle these days)

[satchelmcqueen]

so if they do this will the gas tax go away? lol

[fisharmor]

ODOMETER FTW

+Rep

What the FUCK do they need an expensive ass Black Box in your car for?

The odometer in my daily driver has been busted since the day I bought it.

It's at the bottom of the list of things I mean to fix, if it's even on the list.

Of course some rocket scientist Keynesian economist will point out that it's an incentive for me to buy a new car with one preinstalled.

[Keith and stuff]

The gas tax isn't the worst idea. People with lawn mowing companies and boats don't pay state gas taxes. It could be a better system but it's not completely broken.

[ZENemy]

PRE smog, Pre OBD car in my Future.

[Lucille]

I am a libertarian, and this is one reason why I hate government roads.

Big Brother Is Coming To Your Car
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-28/big-brother-coming-your-car


This is a topic that has been on my radar screen for a while, but one that very few Americans seem to be paying attention to despite the egregious revelations concerning NSA spying that have emerged recently. I first flagged this issue in late 2012 in an article titled: Coming to Your Car: Mandatory Black Boxes That Record Everything.

The latest push for tracking devices in cars is being sold as necessary in order to raise funds to pay for the nation’s decayed highway infrastructure. For example:


As America’s road planners struggle to find the cash to mend a crumbling highway system, many are beginning to see a solution in a little black box that fits neatly by the dashboard of your car.

This is simply idiotic. There is already a tax per gallon on gasoline, so people are already being taxed based on how much they drive. Only a control-freak, moronic government bureaucrat would come to the conclusion that the solution to this problem is to install Orwellian tracking devices in people’s cars.

More from the LA Times:
[...]
Are people really so dumb they will agree to this? Probably.
[...]
Loath to raise the tax, so let’s put a tracking device in every car instead. I don’t even know where to begin…


As the trial got underway, the ACLU of Nevada warned on its website: “It would be fairly easy to turn these devices into full-fledged tracking devices…. There is no need to build an enormous, unwieldy technological infrastructure that will inevitably be expanded to keep records of individuals’ everyday comings and goings.”
But it’s for the highways people. You like highways don’t you? I’m sure it’ll piss off the terrorists too.

What a sad state of affairs.

Full article here (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-roads-black-boxes-20131027,0,6090226.story#axzz2iwf83GXF).

[Brian4Liberty]

The odometer in my daily driver has been busted since the day I bought it.

It's at the bottom of the list of things I mean to fix, if it's even on the list.

Of course some rocket scientist Keynesian economist will point out that it's an incentive for me to buy a new car with one preinstalled.

The IRS knows how to handle tax "cheats". People with disabled or nonexistent tracking devices will be back-taxed the maximum conceivable estimate for past usage.

[Natural Citizen]

//

[DamianTV]

The odometer in my daily driver has been busted since the day I bought it.

It's at the bottom of the list of things I mean to fix, if it's even on the list.

Of course some rocket scientist Keynesian economist will point out that it's an incentive for me to buy a new car with one preinstalled.

Not much incentive for you to fix either. Ooh, fix it so you can pay MORE in taxes. Not exactly a good incentive.

---

Black Boxes in cars has NOTHING to do with TAXES. It has EVERYTHING to do with RESTRICTING YOUR MOVEMENT.

Once they get the Foot in the Door, they will want the power to REMOTELY SHUT DOWN your car, even for shit like being Late on a Payment. Then they'll want Mandatory Breathalyzers that phone home every time you "blow" to start your car . And they'll want CAMERAS in your car. And dont think for a split second that any of this is for Your Own Good.

[PaulConventionWV]

The problem with the gas tax is that you still aren't really paying for the roads you use. If I live in a border city (say Savannah, Ga), I could buy gas in Georgia (because it's cheaper and on the way) but do most of my driving in South Carolina. Georgia gets the tax revenue, even though I used South Carolina's roads.

Say it ain't so!

[Czolgosz]

This really riles me up, Tod, may I have one of your strongly worded letter templates?

kthx