The rise of 'motherism': Stay-at-home mothers face prejudice

[donnay]

The rise of 'motherism': Stay-at-home mothers face prejudice assuming they are lazy, stupid and unattractive, expert warns

Academic says 'motherism' is prejudice unspoken but highly damaging
Dr Aric Sigman: It should be treated as seriously as racism and sexism
Says mothers provide 'unrivalled benefits' to children that others can't

By Eleanor Harding


Many would say that bringing up children is the most important job there is.

But according to experts, stay-at-home mothers are facing an increasingly vicious backlash by those who think they are lazy, stupid and unattractive.

A top academic has said full-time mothers are now subjected to ‘motherism’ - a prejudice which in many circles was unspoken but highly damaging.

Dr Aric Sigman attacked the clichés which shape derogatory attitudes towards women at home and said they should be treated as seriously as racism and sexism.

The leading child development expert told a conference that the rise of prejudice had helped make it socially unacceptable to argue that children benefit from ‘full-time’ parenting.

He added that evidence from biosciences showed that mothers provided ‘unrivalled benefits’ to young children that other people, including fathers, cannot.

Dr Sigman said: ‘You should take on “motherism” - the prejudice against stay-at-home mothers - a prejudice that expresses itself in derogatory clichés like: “You gain a baby and lose a brain” and comments that refer to “schoolgate mother mentality”, or to being “willingly self-lobotomised”.

‘The implication is that by being a full-time mother you are “subjugated and servile” and even sexually unattractive once you are a mother - a quality only associated with women who return to work with their high heels and clipboards.’

He added: ‘Motherhood must not hide its light under a bushel. Greater maternal contact in the early years, especially during infancy, is greatly advantageous to the child.

‘Society must be asked why this could possibly be construed as contentious.’

The event was organised by the Mothers At Home Matter group, which has campaigned against taxpayer-funded child care support for parents who both work, reported The Sunday Telegraph.


The group recently challenged the Chancellor George Osborne over his remark that being a full-time mother was a ‘lifestyle choice’.

Recent figures show the majority of mothers now work, with many seeing full-time parenting as something confined to the rich or those on benefits.

Experts disagree over whether having a mother go out to work impacts on a child’s development.

Some studies show those who go to good nurseries or childminders can be better prepared for school and are able to communicate more efficiently.

But Dr Sigman, a fellow of the Society of Biology and associate fellow of the British Psychological Society, has argued in the past that there may be long-term effects of sending toddlers to full-time day care.

The academic, who has four children, said that the derogatory attitudes towards stay-at-home mothers appeared to be the result of a political and economic agenda.

Sally Goddard Blythe, an expert in child development at the Institute for Neuro-Physiological Psychology, agreed.

She said: ‘We are the only mammal that deliberately separates its young from its mother for economic and social reasons before it is physically able to fend for itself.’


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2469315/Experts-warn-backlash-stay-home-mums-treated-seriously-racism.html#ixzz2iIexKLqL

[heavenlyboy34]

Separating children from parents via government "schools" has long been a tool of elites against the masses, handed down from Prussia. The anti-full time mother bias made popular by "feminists" helps ensure that children become shaped as tools of the State. :( /ramble

[tod evans]

Families who can financially afford for one parent to stay home are very fortunate in todays economy.

Who cares what "society" thinks? Look where they've got us.

[angelatc]

Speaking as a SAHM, my fellow SAHMs seem to be pretty confident about who they are and where they belong. Maybe this is a British thing?

[cajuncocoa]

It's been that way for longer than many may think. I stayed home to raise my twins; they were born in 1989 and I noticed this prejudice almost from Day One. Maybe longer, because leading up to their birth when people would ask me what I was going to do, upon learning that I was going to stay home with them there would almost be a sympathetic and pitying look in their eyes as they would say "well, I guess you really can't go to work since you'll have two of them". No, it wasn't that...I could have dropped off two just as easy as one, but I wanted to stay home with them. They turned out pretty good, too, if I do say so myself.

[specsaregood]

Maybe longer, because leading up to their birth when people would ask me what I was going to do, upon learning that I was going to stay home with them there would almost be a sympathetic and pitying look in their eyes as they would say "well, I guess you really can't go to work since you'll have two of them". No, it wasn't that...I could have dropped off two just as easy as one, but I wanted to stay home with them.

I sometimes get the impression that some people just don't like their kids.

[angelatc]

It's been that way for longer than many may think. I stayed home to raise my twins; they were born in 1989 and I noticed this prejudice almost from Day One. Maybe longer, because leading up to their birth when people would ask me what I was going to do, upon learning that I was going to stay home with them there would almost be a sympathetic and pitying look in their eyes as they would say "well, I guess you really can't go to work since you'll have two of them". No, it wasn't that...I could have dropped off two just as easy as one, but I wanted to stay home with them. They turned out pretty good, too, if I do say so myself.


Wow - so you were discriminated against because you were a woman living in the '70's before women's lib *and* because you were a stay home Mom too? You poor poor thing.

[angelatc]

I sometimes get the impression that some people just don't like their kids.

It's not that. It's just that women are not encouraged to get married and start a family right out of high school any more. Now they are supposed to go to college or enter the workforce. So that's the life they know. Their friends all work, their home lives revolve around two work schedules and when the babies come along, suddenly she finds herself home all day in an unfamiliar environment with no support network. No friends, often no close family, nobody to talk to all day.

Conversations turn from economics and politics to diapers and colic. You can't imagine how big of an adjustment it is. I stayed home with mine, but I'm not about to crow about how I'm a better mother than someone else who decided to go back to work.

I personally didn't experience anybody looking at me with pity in their eyes, but I wasn't necessarily looking frantically for acceptance, so maybe I missed it. It seemed that most people had their own lives to worry about and didn't give a hoot about what I did.

[donnay]

It's been that way for longer than many may think. I stayed home to raise my twins; they were born in 1989 and I noticed this prejudice almost from Day One. Maybe longer, because leading up to their birth when people would ask me what I was going to do, upon learning that I was going to stay home with them there would almost be a sympathetic and pitying look in their eyes as they would say "well, I guess you really can't go to work since you'll have two of them". No, it wasn't that...I could have dropped off two just as easy as one, but I wanted to stay home with them. They turned out pretty good, too, if I do say so myself.


Yes I got that too. I even homeschooled and caught tons of grief as well--"they won't have social skills...blah...blah...blah." I cannot tell you how many times my husband and I got complimented on our children's behavior when we were out in public. We taught them to be respectful and polite. My sons always held doors open for elderly people and women. I am very proud of my children. All independent thinkers and leaders.

[specsaregood]

It's not that. It's just that women are not encouraged to get married and start a family right out of high school any more. Now they are supposed to go to college or enter the workforce. So that's the life they know. Their friends all work, their home lives revolve around two work schedules and when the babies come along, suddenly she finds herself home all day in an unfamiliar environment with no support network. No friends, often no close family, nobody to talk to all day.

Conversations turn from economics and politics to diapers and colic. You can't imagine how big of an adjustment it is. I stayed home with mine, but I'm not about to crow about how I'm a better mother than someone else who decided to go back to work.

I personally didn't experience anybody looking at me with pity in their eyes, but I wasn't necessarily looking frantically for acceptance, so maybe I missed it. It seemed that most people had their own lives to worry about and didn't give a hoot about what I did.

Perhaps; but I don't think I'm entirely off the mark. Some people just don't have the experience or attitude to spend all day with their kids and don't like the experience.

On a sidenote: I'm lucky enough to work from home and thus be a stay at home dad, I love it. But I have a lot of babysitting and child experience from when I was growing up. I dont' know about what moms go through but every guy I've mentioned my situation to is almost outright jealous. :) And the #s of SAHDs is growing quickly from what I see. Hell, if you go grocery shopping in my area early on a Saturday or sunday (pre-9am) the store is filled with dad's with kids and nary a woman with kids to be found. I thought it was a fluke the first time then I started making note of it.

[tod evans]

I get along better with kids-n-dogs than grown-ups....

[angelatc]

And I didn't even send my kids to preschool. We did playgroups and things like gymnastics, art classes, library trips, but their first day at kindergarten was their first day at school. I only met 1 other SAHM that opted out of preschool.

[cajuncocoa]

Wow - so you were discriminated against because you were a woman living in the '70's before women's lib *and* because you were a stay home Mom too? You poor poor thing.
I said nothing about being discriminated against; am I imagining it, or do I detect a tone of snarkiness in your post?

[cajuncocoa]

I sometimes get the impression that some people just don't like their kids.
That's the impression I always got as well. They'd like them a lot better if they would stick around more to be the authority figure in their kids' lives...their kids would respect and listen to them more than they do as absentee parents.

[cajuncocoa]

We didn't do preschool either. That was another thing that tended to make jaws drop.

[MelissaWV]

It's great if someone can stay home with children during their most critical years. I do have to laugh, though, at the idea that there's this huge prejudice. Just no. Envy? That I could buy; it means there are other economic resources available so that the mother can stay home, whether that is the husband or an extended family or the Government. Lazy? I have met lazy parents in my time, yes, and it is mindboggling that maybe those are some of the mommies being offended (if you can't actually run a household where there isn't mold and dirty clothing and unchanged kitty litter in your home, then please don't bring children into it).

But the prejudice I HAVE seen is largely of the anti-non-mommy variety. Don't have children? Expect to be called upon when your co-worker's child has a cold, or a doctor's appointment, or a recital. If your co-worker is pregnant and moody and hormonal, you will be expected to be excited for her bringing another child she cannot afford into the world. If you have plans, they can be negated by the "more important" duties associated with motherhood. I have worked (note: past tense) at places where my time off was revoked because someone wanted to go to a concert, and what with being a single mom, she NEVER got to go ANYWHERE and her boyfriend got tickets. They did not ask, they just revoked my time off on some made-up technicality and told me that if I called out without a doctor's note to demonstrate why I couldn't come in that day, I would be written up.

Ah... right... *looks at topic*... anyhow back to it, right?

I would think the look with pity in their eyes thing is either envy or an assumption that, if you are working, you need the check to make ends meet. If you are going to stay home with a child then your income is going away AND you are going to have a lot of expenses. What those people don't realize is that you are also shedding a number of expenses, so if you're crafty about it you can come out of it economically even --- and greatly benefit your child. In that particular case, it'd be a no-brainer, but this also assumes (again) that you are not the sole income.

[cajuncocoa]

Yes I got that too. I even homeschooled and caught tons of grief as well--"they won't have social skills...blah...blah...blah." I cannot tell you how many times my husband and I got complimented on our children's behavior when we were out in public. We taught them to be respectful and polite. My sons always held doors open for elderly people and women. I am very proud of my children. All independent thinkers and leaders.

Yes, we got that too! People would tell us that we were lucky...lol, we weren't lucky, we were RAISING them to be that way!! :)

[Cleaner44]

My wife stayed home until each of our children entered Kindergarten and I wouldn't have it any other way. We suffered financially for that decision and we have not regretted it for one second. My second child is finishing high school now and we also have a 3 year old. When my wife mentioned to some other mothers recently that we likely will home school this child, they were horrified at the concept. I think people get worked up because they look at these decisions as a reflection of their own. Why should a working mother care if another wishes to stay home? Why should they care if someone home schools? I think they want every other mother to stop breast feeding, put their baby in day care and then put them into public school... any deviation from this path bothers those that choose it for their family.

[cajuncocoa]

My wife stayed home until each of our children entered Kindergarten and I wouldn't have it any other way. We suffered financially for that decision and we have not regretted it for one second. My second child is finishing high school now and we also have a 3 year old. When my wife mentioned to some other mothers recently that we likely will home school this child, they were horrified at the concept. I think people get worked up because they look at these decisions as a reflection of their own. Why should a working mother care if another wishes to stay home? Why should they care if someone home schools? I think they want every other mother to stop breast feeding, put their baby in day care and then put them into public school... any deviation from this path bothers those that choose it for their family.
Yes....and articles about motherhood tend to make SAHMs feel like crap. Just as donnay's article says: lazy, unattractive, but mostly stupid and worthless. They will try to tell you that your children will think less of you for this decision (because when Mommy is happy, junior is happy!) As if Mommy can only be happy away from junior. They try to tell you that "quality" time is so much better than "quantity". And when you're riddled with postpartum depression and unsure of how your children really will think of you when they grow up, it makes you doubt yourself at times. Well, I did. Part of it was PPD, and another part of it was due to being an only child, not being around babies very much and being scared out of my mind with twins. God really does have a sense of humor, but we all came through OK.

[MelissaWV]

My wife stayed home until each of our children entered Kindergarten and I wouldn't have it any other way. We suffered financially for that decision and we have not regretted it for one second. My second child is finishing high school now and we also have a 3 year old. When my wife mentioned to some other mothers recently that we likely will home school this child, they were horrified at the concept. I think people get worked up because they look at these decisions as a reflection of their own. Why should a working mother care if another wishes to stay home? Why should they care if someone home schools? I think they want every other mother to stop breast feeding, put their baby in day care and then put them into public school... any deviation from this path bothers those that choose it for their family.

Yep. And I think a large amount of homeschoolphobia comes from the parent having the ridiculous notion that they have to "come up with" everything involved and basically replace a 5-8 hour school day (depending on homework load) all by themselves. Frankly, public school wastes a crapload of time. Teaching just your child means that you can play to their strengths and challenge/address their weaknesses. There are plenty of good lesson plans and texts out there, and there are even online resources that can make excellent use of. You are also free to actually go out and look at leaves instead of just looking at them in a book, without having to sign 100 waivers because little Jenny might be allergic to maple pollen and break out in hives. The list goes on and on, and that's without even addressing the content objections.

[July]

Families who can financially afford for one parent to stay home are very fortunate in todays economy.

Who cares what "society" thinks? Look where they've got us.

Indeed, I think the assumption is becoming also that SAHMs are rich, and that adds another layer of resentment.

[cajuncocoa]

Yep. And I think a large amount of homeschoolphobia comes from the parent having the ridiculous notion that they have to "come up with" everything involved and basically replace a 5-8 hour school day (depending on homework load) all by themselves. Frankly, public school wastes a crapload of time. Teaching just your child means that you can play to their strengths and challenge/address their weaknesses. There are plenty of good lesson plans and texts out there, and there are even online resources that can make excellent use of. You are also free to actually go out and look at leaves instead of just looking at them in a book, without having to sign 100 waivers because little Jenny might be allergic to maple pollen and break out in hives. The list goes on and on, and that's without even addressing the content objections.

I didn't homeschool, and I regret that decision. My two went to public school (couldn't afford private/parochial) and I can tell you that they do indeed waste a crapload of time. In the end, I think I did actually wind up filling the holes that public school left in their education....I had to teach both of them algebra in middle school. They just couldn't grasp it from just school lessons. If I had a quarter for every time they came home in elementary school and said what they did that day was watch a movie....wow.

[donnay]

My wife stayed home until each of our children entered Kindergarten and I wouldn't have it any other way. We suffered financially for that decision and we have not regretted it for one second. My second child is finishing high school now and we also have a 3 year old. When my wife mentioned to some other mothers recently that we likely will home school this child, they were horrified at the concept. I think people get worked up because they look at these decisions as a reflection of their own. Why should a working mother care if another wishes to stay home? Why should they care if someone home schools? I think they want every other mother to stop breast feeding, put their baby in day care and then put them into public school... any deviation from this path bothers those that choose it for their family.

Because we have a society of nosy nellies and narcissists. The phony feminist movement brainwashed a good many young women.

[donnay]

I didn't homeschool, and I regret that decision. My two went to public school (couldn't afford private/parochial) and I can tell you that they do indeed waste a crapload of time. In the end, I think I did actually wind up filling the holes that public school left in their education....I had to teach both of them algebra in middle school. They just couldn't grasp it from just school lessons. If I had a quarter for every time they came home in elementary school and said what they did that day was watch a movie....wow.

Unfortunately today school has become glorified babysitters for the parents who have to keep up with the Joneses. I have seen people who are mortgaged to the teeth, eat out four times a week and their kids have the latest and greatest toys as do the parents. They enroll their children in every extra curricular activity and live vicarious through their children.

When we first started out, we didn't have two brand new cars and the brand new house full of brand new furniture. I cooked every night of the week and we went out to dinner only when it was a special occasion. If money was tight, I worked nights as a waitress, juggled night school three nights a week and my husband watched the children and worked days. Family watched the children when we went out for our Anniversary.

[cajuncocoa]

Unfortunately today school has become glorified babysitters for the parents who have to keep up with the Joneses. I have seen people who are mortgaged to the teeth, eat out four times a week and their kids have the latest and greatest toys as do the parents. They enroll their children in every extra curricular activity and live vicarious through their children.

When we first started out, we didn't have two brand new cars and the brand new house full of brand new furniture. I cooked every night of the week and we went out to dinner only when it was a special occasion. If money was tight, I worked nights as a waitress, juggled night school three nights a week and my husband watched the children and worked days. Family watched the children when we went out for our Anniversary.
Your life sounds a lot like ours was. And those parents in your first paragraph...we knew so many who were living like that. Couldn't understand how they found the time to do all that!

[amy31416]

It's great if someone can stay home with children during their most critical years. I do have to laugh, though, at the idea that there's this huge prejudice. Just no. Envy? That I could buy; it means there are other economic resources available so that the mother can stay home, whether that is the husband or an extended family or the Government. Lazy? I have met lazy parents in my time, yes, and it is mindboggling that maybe those are some of the mommies being offended (if you can't actually run a household where there isn't mold and dirty clothing and unchanged kitty litter in your home, then please don't bring children into it).

But the prejudice I HAVE seen is largely of the anti-non-mommy variety. Don't have children? Expect to be called upon when your co-worker's child has a cold, or a doctor's appointment, or a recital. If your co-worker is pregnant and moody and hormonal, you will be expected to be excited for her bringing another child she cannot afford into the world. If you have plans, they can be negated by the "more important" duties associated with motherhood. I have worked (note: past tense) at places where my time off was revoked because someone wanted to go to a concert, and what with being a single mom, she NEVER got to go ANYWHERE and her boyfriend got tickets. They did not ask, they just revoked my time off on some made-up technicality and told me that if I called out without a doctor's note to demonstrate why I couldn't come in that day, I would be written up.

Ah... right... *looks at topic*... anyhow back to it, right?

I would think the look with pity in their eyes thing is either envy or an assumption that, if you are working, you need the check to make ends meet. If you are going to stay home with a child then your income is going away AND you are going to have a lot of expenses. What those people don't realize is that you are also shedding a number of expenses, so if you're crafty about it you can come out of it economically even --- and greatly benefit your child. In that particular case, it'd be a no-brainer, but this also assumes (again) that you are not the sole income.

I never really got any "discrimination" either way, except from parents pushing for grandkids and one idiot step-MIL who asked what I do all day. She's the type to just yell a kid into submission, so I turned her down on her babysitting offer to "allow" me to go back to work. She doesn't think it's any work because for her, it really wasn't.

[MelissaWV]

I never really got any "discrimination" either way, except from parents pushing for grandkids and one idiot step-MIL who asked what I do all day. She's the type to just yell a kid into submission, so I turned her down on her babysitting offer to "allow" me to go back to work. She doesn't think it's any work because for her, it really wasn't.

OMG! You are promoting a motherist stereotype!

:D

[Paulbot99]

But... But... Those women are obviously oppressed! No one can find emotional satisfaction from raising their own kids full-time. :eek:

[kathy88]

Where I live there are actually very few stay at home moms. There are instead lots of tax tics who are better off financially if they don't work. Huge difference. I work from home. Does that make me a stay at home mom?

[amy31416]

OMG! You are promoting a motherist stereotype!

:D

Actually. I just thought of a situation where I was one of those who "discriminated" against one of the uber-mommy types. I had a long-term technical project with a woman who had 3 kids and two more on the way, she was supposed to do the microbiology aspect of the project, and I was undertaking the chem part. She missed so much work and was incapable of doing 90%+ of what she should have handled. I was doing almost everything, she'd whine a lot, and I had her kicked off the project. I was better off on my own, and she was about to explode with twins or triplets--can't honestly remember which.

She got pushed on me because I was the noob in the department, and they couldn't figure out what do do with her since she wasn't medically allowed into most of the labs. They couldn't say anything to her due to a potential lawsuit. She intended to return to work after having the babies.

So...I'm guilty of discrimination. Don't regret it.

Speaking of which, ever run into women who just seem to like being pregnant, then don't seem very interested in the finished product? I have.

[calendula]

@cajuncocoa moms of twins rock! :D My twins are 9 months old now, and I am a SAHM.

If I had a nickel for every time I've been asked, "So when are you going back to work?" And when I tell them, "Not any time soon," I get a puzzled look in return, "Oh..."

I do have to say, many people have been very supportive of our decision. We are sacrificing a lot to do this, and I'm not just talking giving up cable tv. Shit's tight right now to say the least. On the other hand, I have gotten plenty of negative feed back as well. Many times, when I tell someone that I am not going back to work for now, they say something like, "That must be nice," and scoff. They're not meaning, "That must be nice to be able to raise your children yourself," rather, they mean, "must be nice to sit on your ass at home all day while we all work."

So, that to me is discrimination. And it just isn't true, though I think it depends on the mom. For us, we like to make our food from scratch, garden, make our own laundry detergent, soap, I sew, do cloth diapers, very little as far as "convenience items" go, etc... I'm a busy person. However, I have known a couple of SAHMs who have dirty piles of laundry, scummy floors, and neglected children on a regular basis, and those chicks give us a bad name.

I feel that through my schooling and the media, I was socialized to not want kids at all, but to most certainly be a working mother if I somehow "got stuck" having some rugrats. Obviously, I have changed my mind on the subject, but many women do not.

[cajuncocoa]

@cajuncocoa moms of twins rock! :D My twins are 9 months old now, and I am a SAHM.

If I had a nickel for every time I've been asked, "So when are you going back to work?" And when I tell them, "Not any time soon," I get a puzzled look in return, "Oh..."

I do have to say, many people have been very supportive of our decision. We are sacrificing a lot to do this, and I'm not just talking giving up cable tv. Shit's tight right now to say the least. On the other hand, I have gotten plenty of negative feed back as well. Many times, when I tell someone that I am not going back to work for now, they say something like, "That must be nice," and scoff. They're not meaning, "That must be nice to be able to raise your children yourself," rather, they mean, "must be nice to sit on your ass at home all day while we all work."

So, that to me is discrimination. And it just isn't true, though I think it depends on the mom. For us, we like to make our food from scratch, garden, make our own laundry detergent, soap, I sew, do cloth diapers, very little as far as "convenience items" go, etc... I'm a busy person. However, I have known a couple of SAHMs who have dirty piles of laundry, scummy floors, and neglected children on a regular basis, and those chicks give us a bad name.

I feel that through my schooling and the media, I was socialized to not want kids at all, but to most certainly be a working mother if I somehow "got stuck" having some rugrats. Obviously, I have changed my mind on the subject, but many women do not.

yep, I've gotten that one before too. And +rep to a fellow mom of twins!

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[muzzled dogg]

What about a stay at home mother who send her kids off to public school?

[cajuncocoa]

How about stay-at-home fathers? Do they face prejudice? (Which I mention having been one for over four years).

I would think stay-at-home fathers face even more prejudice than SAHMs.

[specsaregood]

//

[cajuncocoa]

What about a stay at home mother who send her kids off to public school?

*raises hand*

For some reason, I didn't think I was qualified to homeschool when the twins were ready for kindergarten. The ironic thing about sending your kids to public school is that you end up homeschooling them anyway when it comes time for them to do their homework. :rolleyes:

[Feeding the Abscess]

Perhaps; but I don't think I'm entirely off the mark. Some people just don't have the experience or attitude to spend all day with their kids and don't like the experience.

On a sidenote: I'm lucky enough to work from home and thus be a stay at home dad, I love it. But I have a lot of babysitting and child experience from when I was growing up. I dont' know about what moms go through but every guy I've mentioned my situation to is almost outright jealous. :) And the #s of SAHDs is growing quickly from what I see. Hell, if you go grocery shopping in my area early on a Saturday or sunday (pre-9am) the store is filled with dad's with kids and nary a woman with kids to be found. I thought it was a fluke the first time then I started making note of it.

I wouldn't think a dad shopping on a Saturday or Sunday morning with his kids would necessarily be an indication that he's a stay at home dad. If anything, I'd think he's there on those days because he's working during the week.

[jclay2]

Just starting month 3 with our first little one. Typical response my wife has gotten for deciding to stay home for the time being:

Friend: "Oh so when will you be going back to work"
Wife: (very nervous) "Umm....well I think I am going to stay home with them for the first couple months and see what happens"
Friend: "Oh that's nice" (looks away embarrassed)

[MelissaWV]

I guess I've been discriminatory, then. I've asked when someone who was on maternity leave was coming back to work. It's nice for me, who is covering for them, to know when I might plan a vacation or family event lol (or if they aren't coming back, to know that I'm in for another long series of interviewing and attempting to teach someone else's job to a newbie).

[Luciconsort]

I'd love for a gaggle of yuppie girls to say some shit like this to my wife. get your popcorn, cause the show's about to start.

[specsaregood]

//

[Natural Citizen]

What about a stay at home mother who send her kids off to public school?

Steak and potatoes fer dinner? Like the real mashed ones?

[MelissaWV]

Yeah, well I don't know what its like on the other days as I do the shopping on the weekend -- we have one vehicle so when the wife takes it to work, it precludes me doing any grocery shopping; but I guess everybody else has multiple car households. My point was more that I see just as many if not more men doing such things with the kids as I do women. The days of the Michael Keaton mr. mom (inexperience with such activities) is well behind us.

Interesting pro tip on grocery shopping... find out when the deliveries come in, plan your shopping day for during the week, and take your wife to work that day :p You will get fresher items and more variety, fewer people crowding the aisles in general, and you can always surprise her with a once-per-week lunch date/picnic. Just be careful because some of those places get crowded with the old folks' van at a little before lunchtime.

[specsaregood]

//

[PaulConventionWV]

It's great if someone can stay home with children during their most critical years. I do have to laugh, though, at the idea that there's this huge prejudice. Just no. Envy? That I could buy; it means there are other economic resources available so that the mother can stay home, whether that is the husband or an extended family or the Government. Lazy? I have met lazy parents in my time, yes, and it is mindboggling that maybe those are some of the mommies being offended (if you can't actually run a household where there isn't mold and dirty clothing and unchanged kitty litter in your home, then please don't bring children into it).

But the prejudice I HAVE seen is largely of the anti-non-mommy variety. Don't have children? Expect to be called upon when your co-worker's child has a cold, or a doctor's appointment, or a recital. If your co-worker is pregnant and moody and hormonal, you will be expected to be excited for her bringing another child she cannot afford into the world. If you have plans, they can be negated by the "more important" duties associated with motherhood. I have worked (note: past tense) at places where my time off was revoked because someone wanted to go to a concert, and what with being a single mom, she NEVER got to go ANYWHERE and her boyfriend got tickets. They did not ask, they just revoked my time off on some made-up technicality and told me that if I called out without a doctor's note to demonstrate why I couldn't come in that day, I would be written up.

Ah... right... *looks at topic*... anyhow back to it, right?

I would think the look with pity in their eyes thing is either envy or an assumption that, if you are working, you need the check to make ends meet. If you are going to stay home with a child then your income is going away AND you are going to have a lot of expenses. What those people don't realize is that you are also shedding a number of expenses, so if you're crafty about it you can come out of it economically even --- and greatly benefit your child. In that particular case, it'd be a no-brainer, but this also assumes (again) that you are not the sole income.

We must be living in separate universes. You seem to think the bias in this country is for being more family-oriented... yeah, right.

[fr33]

We must be living in separate universes. You seem to think the bias in this country is for being more family-oriented... yeah, right.

It probably depends on what part of the country you live in. I've been married for almost 13 years and people bug the hell out of us for not having kids yet.

"How many kids have you got? What are you waiting on??"

I'd be a rich man if I had a dollar every time someone asked me that.

[cajuncocoa]

I guess I've been discriminatory, then. I've asked when someone who was on maternity leave was coming back to work. It's nice for me, who is covering for them, to know when I might plan a vacation or family event lol (or if they aren't coming back, to know that I'm in for another long series of interviewing and attempting to teach someone else's job to a newbie).
I don't see that as discriminatory at all. Seems only fair to me.

[PaulConventionWV]

Indeed, I think the assumption is becoming also that SAHMs are rich, and that adds another layer of resentment.

My sister is a SAHM, and, well, her husband is the GM at the highest sales volume Wal Mart in the country, so yeah, they are kinda well-off...

[Anti Federalist]

Who's going to pay taxes if you stay home?



It's not that. It's just that women are not encouraged to get married and start a family right out of high school any more. Now they are supposed to go to college or enter the workforce. So that's the life they know. Their friends all work, their home lives revolve around two work schedules and when the babies come along, suddenly she finds herself home all day in an unfamiliar environment with no support network. No friends, often no close family, nobody to talk to all day.

Conversations turn from economics and politics to diapers and colic. You can't imagine how big of an adjustment it is. I stayed home with mine, but I'm not about to crow about how I'm a better mother than someone else who decided to go back to work.

I personally didn't experience anybody looking at me with pity in their eyes, but I wasn't necessarily looking frantically for acceptance, so maybe I missed it. It seemed that most people had their own lives to worry about and didn't give a hoot about what I did.

[PaulConventionWV]

I guess I've been discriminatory, then. I've asked when someone who was on maternity leave was coming back to work. It's nice for me, who is covering for them, to know when I might plan a vacation or family event lol (or if they aren't coming back, to know that I'm in for another long series of interviewing and attempting to teach someone else's job to a newbie).

Wow, those normal, run-of-the-mill job duties you can find in any profession sound absolutely horrendous.

[PaulConventionWV]

It probably depends on what part of the country you live in. I've been married for almost 13 years and people bug the hell out of us for not having kids yet.

"How many kids have you got? What are you waiting on??"

I'd be a rich man if I had a dollar every time someone asked me that.

Yeah, well, I tend to think that's because having a family is normal (no offense), so you're going to get that. The new anti-mommy sentiment is a recent phenomenon, however, that has been growing quite rapidly. The level of bias that SAHMs face is nowhere near the supposed bias that wed couples without kids face. Most people who get married do so to have a family, so it does seem kind of strange when married couples don't do that. Mothers who stay at home with their kids, however, are just now starting to face prejudice even though this was never strange or unusual in the past.

[bolil]

As a worker I have willingly taken on extra responsibilities for people with kids. Just seems like the right thing to do. Could I have been taken advantage of? No more than the current system takes advantage of me, and makes me an accessory to murder at the same time.

[MelissaWV]

We must be living in separate universes. You seem to think the bias in this country is for being more family-oriented... yeah, right.

No, I think that people at previous jobs (and, to a lesser extent, my current one) are given preferential treatment if they have children, to the point that the rules are bent for them and those without children are seen as never having a good enough excuse for time off.

If you think that going a couple of years without being able to use your vacation days due to them being cancelled after being approved is a "normal job duty" then I wonder why the mommies in those other jobs didn't have to put up with those normal job duties?


The level of bias that SAHMs face is nowhere near the supposed bias that wed couples without kids face. Most people who get married do so to have a family, so it does seem kind of strange when married couples don't do that.

If people would mind their own business instead of asking repeatedly when someone is going to have a child, as if it were always that easy or even physically possible, things would go better. They don't, though. The assumption is the person or couple involved is selfish and wants to avoid having children so they can be rich and pampered.

[PaulConventionWV]

No, I think that people at previous jobs (and, to a lesser extent, my current one) are given preferential treatment if they have children, to the point that the rules are bent for them and those without children are seen as never having a good enough excuse for time off.

If you think that going a couple of years without being able to use your vacation days due to them being cancelled after being approved is a "normal job duty" then I wonder why the mommies in those other jobs didn't have to put up with those normal job duties?

You could always quit, you know.


If people would mind their own business instead of asking repeatedly when someone is going to have a child, as if it were always that easy or even physically possible, things would go better. They don't, though. The assumption is the person or couple involved is selfish and wants to avoid having children so they can be rich and pampered.

The point, however, was the difference in where the bias came from. Perhaps people should mind their own business, but that doesn't change the fact that SAHMs are now facing a growing bias in this country that developed from... where? The bias toward married couples without children as well as the bias you describe obviously stems from the long-standing tradition of how marriage and raising children works. Many employers are very sympathetic to SAHMs because they recognize the importance of parenthood. If you think it's over the top, which I'm not saying it isn't, then there are courses of action you can take, but you can't blame society for this inconvenience you face which is prevalent across professions.

The fact of the matter is that it's all supply and demand. There was enough demand for accommodations for SAHMs, so employers listened and started accommodating them, obviously to your detriment. I don't know what industry you work in, but it may not be as bad in others. There are still a lot of SAHMs, and the fact that they are given what you call "preferential treatment" in the workplace is just left over from how the market responds to the family tradition. It's not really a social bias, it's really just a product of the supply and demand for good labor in this country.

[MelissaWV]

The fact of the matter is that it's all supply and demand. There was enough demand for accommodations for SAHMs, so employers listened and started accommodating them, obviously to your detriment. I don't know what industry you work in, but it may not be as bad in others. There are still a lot of SAHMs, and the fact that they are given what you call "preferential treatment" in the workplace is just left over from how the market responds to the family tradition. It's not really a social bias, it's really just a product of the supply and demand for good labor in this country.

You might consider reading a bit more closely. I have stated that this is over the course of a number of jobs... jobs I no longer hold; I only have two at the moment.

It has nothing to do with laws that govern maternity leave or discrimination or anything, I'm sure.

The "inconveniences" (which you earlier called regular job duties) are one-sided. I don't recall any time in the past two dozen years where someone's plan to attend their kid's recital was cancelled so that I could do something with my family. The norm is to be told that I don't really have a "family" without a thought to what the situation is. You may want to look again at what the new normal is. My need to take time off to take care of my elderly parents is rapidly becoming a normal thing, and it also finds its roots in tradition.

You can put "preferential treatment" in quotation marks all you would like, but in a very large number of jobs over the years across a number of states, it has been the same: rules are there, but they are bent in your favor due to cronyism or because you have the right kind of excuse.

Thankfully the last lady with single-momitis I had to deal with was fired :) She was late every day (but never failed to show up with drive-thru breakfast), would say she had to take her kids to medical appointments (then later she would say she hadn't made it to the appointments and needed to reschedule, so she'd be off a few more days next week), and while she was at work she was very slow with the excuse that her kids kept her up (her son was 14... wtf?) and she was too sleepy to work. She nursed a few coffees and if anyone said anything to her about her dismal work performance or lateness, she would cry and talk about how difficult it was to be a single mom. The only reason she could be fired was that --- thankfully --- she was a temp. The fact they fired her at all gives me a sliver of hope for this workplace.

On the flipside, employees who leave to stay with their kiddos get a huge amount of support and have a PRN position waiting for them when they get back, where they can work as much or as little as they would like and are paid by the visit. Staying home for at LEAST a few months is highly encouraged, and even paid for.

Lastly, I was not aware that single moms were such a tradition.

* * *

And yeah that's not everyone, but my point is that I find it difficult to believe there's some kind of SAHM backlash/bias going on, particularly since PaulConvention just convinced me it's such an important group of people that corporate America has bent over backwards on their behalf.

[tod evans]

Lastly, I was not aware that single moms were such a tradition.

If in fact they are, they shouldn't be.

Wasn't that long ago mothers who chose to raise children without their father were looked down on by every strata of society, exception being death of the father.

Now single mothers are a protected segment of society, they're granted social programs paid for by tax dollars as well as private programs, to the point that it pays quite well to voluntarily subject children to single parent households and charity programs.

There's no amount of excuses that can justify raising children in such an environment.

Every excuse boils down to, "I made a poor choice in a partner now I expect society to foot the bill".....

There is no personal responsibility.

[fr33]

If people would mind their own business instead of asking repeatedly when someone is going to have a child, as if it were always that easy or even physically possible, things would go better. They don't, though. The assumption is the person or couple involved is selfish and wants to avoid having children so they can be rich and pampered.

Yes people do this without even thinking about how nosy they are being and possibly offensive too. Some women can't get pregnant as easily as others due to medical issues. Some can't at all. Some have had miscarriages which makes it an even more sensitive subject.

[cajuncocoa]

You could always quit, you know.



The point, however, was the difference in where the bias came from. Perhaps people should mind their own business, but that doesn't change the fact that SAHMs are now facing a growing bias in this country that developed from... where? The bias toward married couples without children as well as the bias you describe obviously stems from the long-standing tradition of how marriage and raising children works. Many employers are very sympathetic to SAHMs because they recognize the importance of parenthood. If you think it's over the top, which I'm not saying it isn't, then there are courses of action you can take, but you can't blame society for this inconvenience you face which is prevalent across professions.

The fact of the matter is that it's all supply and demand. There was enough demand for accommodations for SAHMs, so employers listened and started accommodating them, obviously to your detriment. I don't know what industry you work in, but it may not be as bad in others. There are still a lot of SAHMs, and the fact that they are given what you call "preferential treatment" in the workplace is just left over from how the market responds to the family tradition. It's not really a social bias, it's really just a product of the supply and demand for good labor in this country.
Just a quick question: I was under the impression that we're using the acronym "SAHM" to mean "stay-at-home-Mom", meaning a Mom who is forgoing gainful employment for the greater benefit of staying at home, unemployed, to raise her children. What do you mean when you say "There was enough demand for accommodations for SAHMs, so employers listened and started accommodating them"?

[cajuncocoa]

@Melissa....things sure have changed since I left the "real" workplace in 1988....I didn't return to a traditional workplace after staying home with the kiddies; instead I did 20 years as a self-employed commission-only sales rep...that way, I could take time off if I needed to stay home with one of my boys when they got sick. That preferential treatment of which you speak didn't exist before 1988, and I'm sure it's a (politically correct) response to the whole "women's rights" movement. I can understand why you would be frustrated. (Not sarcasm at all, seriously).

[cajuncocoa]

Yes people do this without even thinking about how nosy they are being and possibly offensive too. Some women can't get pregnant as easily as others due to medical issues. Some can't at all. Some have had miscarriages which makes it an even more sensitive subject.

The worst offenders of this are mothers and mothers-in-law who are anxious to become grandmothers. Here I am in that situation now, and I VOW WITH EVERYTHING I HAVE IN ME to always bite my tongue and not ever ask that question.

[MelissaWV]

@Melissa....things sure have changed since I left the "real" workplace in 1988....I didn't return to a traditional workplace after staying home with the kiddies; instead I did 20 years as a self-employed commission-only sales rep...that way, I could take time off if I needed to stay home with one of my boys when they got sick. That preferential treatment of which you speak didn't exist before 1988, and I'm sure it's a (politically correct) response to the whole "women's rights" movement. I can understand why you would be frustrated. (Not sarcasm at all, seriously).

Yeah I realized after I left for work I'd massively derailed this anyhow. Stay at home moms, by definition, don't usually have to worry too much about employers... well except the ones that fling spaghetti and roll their eyes, or the moms themselves. I have nothing but respect for that. Being a mom is not an "easy" job and making the decision to undertake that entire situation requires a lot of thought and often more understanding of economics than doing the expected thing and going back to work.

[cajuncocoa]

Yeah I realized after I left for work I'd massively derailed this anyhow. Stay at home moms, by definition, don't usually have to worry too much about employers... well except the ones that fling spaghetti and roll their eyes, or the moms themselves. I have nothing but respect for that. Being a mom is not an "easy" job and making the decision to undertake that entire situation requires a lot of thought and often more understanding of economics than doing the expected thing and going back to work.
I don't think your comments derailed the thread; if what you've experienced in your workplace is common, it's a valid point to mention in this whole debate. Another sign of people trying to have it all, at the expense of their children, their co-workers, their employers, etc.

LOL @ "the (employers) who fling spaghetti". How true!! :D

[amy31416]

Yeah I realized after I left for work I'd massively derailed this anyhow. Stay at home moms, by definition, don't usually have to worry too much about employers... well except the ones that fling spaghetti and roll their eyes, or the moms themselves. I have nothing but respect for that. Being a mom is not an "easy" job and making the decision to undertake that entire situation requires a lot of thought and often more understanding of economics than doing the expected thing and going back to work.

I think the worst my mom experienced was the absolute terror she had about going back into her profession after 12 years out (she was an RN), after my dad was laid off from his job. Fortunately, she'd somewhat kept up by always being the volunteer nurse at our schools and in our neighborhood--but all the new equipment, new regulations, computer systems, etc.

When you decide to become a SAHM, you do take a risk that you'll never be able to go back into your profession in an emergency. My mom was lucky due to massive nurse shortages at the time, we were grown up and she'd always stayed in touch with her colleagues.

[angelatc]

.. my point is that I find it difficult to believe there's some kind of SAHM backlash/bias going on, particularly since PaulConvention just convinced me it's such an important group of people that corporate America has bent over backwards on their behalf.

I think it is likely a case of projection by the author. He found himself thinking those thoughts, and decided everybody must be having them.

[cajuncocoa]

I think it is likely a case of projection by the author. He found himself thinking those thoughts, and decided everybody must be having them.

No, and just because you haven't experienced them doesn't mean they don't exist.

[angelatc]

I think the worst my mom experienced was the absolute terror she had about going back into her profession after 12 years out (she was an RN), after my dad was laid off from his job. Fortunately, she'd somewhat kept up by always being the volunteer nurse at our schools and in our neighborhood--but all the new equipment, new regulations, computer systems, etc.

When you decide to become a SAHM, you do take a risk that you'll never be able to go back into your profession in an emergency. My mom was lucky due to massive nurse shortages at the time, we were grown up and she'd always stayed in touch with her colleagues.

The best boss I ever had was a woman, and she was younger than me. When I was pregnant with son #1, she asked me what I was going to do. (Casual conversation - I was no longer reporting to her.) She remarked that if she were me, she would stay home. I was surprised and told her as much, because she was definitely on the career track. She just shrugged and said, "I got this far once, I can get this far again. "

It sounds silly, but that sort of made up my mind about any career reservations I was holding on to.

[donnay]

I had my own business, I owned a Café. I became pregnant twice while owning this Café. I worked up to the very minute I went into labor. I shut my Café for two days to give birth to one child and with the other it was mandatory I stayed in the hospital for three days. Then it was back to work from 4 am to 4 pm, both times. I also breastfed them as well.

[Elias Graves]

Families who can financially afford for one parent to stay home are very fortunate in todays economy.

Who cares what "society" thinks? Look where they've got us.
This family can't afford it any more than the next.
But, Mrs G. is truly a homemaker...she does many things that require us to spend less money. There's no day care, she doesn't have to maintain a big budget wardrobe for an office, we spend less on food because she cooks, etc. etc. etc. It balances out in the end.



And, yes, Mrs. G has heard all the remarks since our boys were babies.

Now excuse me. I'm told the homemade plum jelly is ready.

[PierzStyx]

Families who can financially afford for one parent to stay home are very fortunate in todays economy.

Who cares what "society" thinks? Look where they've got us.

Every family could be if the family lived within their means.

[tod evans]

Every family could be if the family lived within their means.

Bullshit.

[Elias Graves]

Bullshit.
Not really. We decided to do it and did it.
Has it been difficult in some ways? Sure, but the benefits to our children of not being raised by a minimum wage daycare worker was totally worth it.
We've made quite a few financial sacrifices for it but the payoff has been more than worth it.
Eating real cooked food every day is only one of the benefits. Not having cable means we read more.
Seeing my sons grow into respectable young men is priceless.

[Eagles' Wings]

Bullshit. With wages down, taxes up, etc., etc., ad nauseum, it is a challenge to live within your means.

However, by doing many of things Elias mentioned, it can be done. We are even considering eliminating internet and cell phones. Our house is COLD in the winter and WARM in the summer but it has to be this way to cut down on costs.

We are not weak people, we are resourseful, intelligent, and simply have to say no to many modern conveniences.

[tod evans]

Not really. We decided to do it and did it.
Has it been difficult in some ways? Sure, but the benefits to our children of not being raised by a minimum wage daycare worker was totally worth it.
We've made quite a few financial sacrifices for it but the payoff has been more than worth it.
Eating real cooked food every day is only one of the benefits. Not having cable means we read more.
Seeing my sons grow into respectable young men is priceless.


With wages down, taxes up, etc., etc., ad nauseum, it is a challenge to live within your means.

However, by doing many of things Elias mentioned, it can be done. We are even considering eliminating internet and cell phones. Our house is COLD in the winter and WARM in the summer but it has to be this way to cut down on costs.

We are not weak people, we are resourseful, intelligent, and simply have to say no to many modern conveniences.

Ya'll are to be commended!

There is a large portion of society today that couldn't afford a roof without both parents working and I'm afraid it's going to get worse before anything changes..

[Eagles' Wings]

Ya'll are to be commended!

There is a large portion of society today that couldn't afford a roof without both parents working and I'm afraid it's going to get worse before anything changes..Thanks, Todd. Your posts give us alot to think about and keep us from simply being complacent.

[Occam's Banana]

Families who can financially afford for one parent to stay home are very fortunate in todays economy.

Every family could be if the family lived within their means.

No they couldn't. Tod is absolutely correct - such families are very fortunate, indeed.

The Federal Reserve system had the last of its chains removed in the early '70s.
Since then, Fed-induced inflation has almost utterly destroyed the viability of single-income families.

This fact has provided the excuse & motivation for massive expansions of entitlement programs,
The result of this has been the further corrosion of families due to to welfare dependency ...

[cajuncocoa]

I don't deny that we were fortunate. Still had to make many sacrifices (as Elias and Louise mentioned), but if hubby hadn't been doing as well with his career, staying home would have been out of the question.

[Elias Graves]

With wages down, taxes up, etc., etc., ad nauseum, it is a challenge to live within your means.

However, by doing many of things Elias mentioned, it can be done. We are even considering eliminating internet and cell phones. Our house is COLD in the winter and WARM in the summer but it has to be this way to cut down on costs.

We are not weak people, we are resourseful, intelligent, and simply have to say no to many modern conveniences.

Yep. My house is modest, my car is old and paid for. No cable tv, no restaurants, no movies or concerts. I don't buy booze any more or soda or microwave popcorn. You'd be amazed at how many "must have" items aren't.
Folks can live how they like; it makes no difference to me but to claim it can't be done are incorrect.
We've struggled mightily to make it happen but have no regrets about doing it.
My own mother comments that"Your life reminds me of how we lived before the war." I take that as a compliment.
A great place to start is "The Tightwad Gazette" by Amy Dacyzyn. Good stuff in there.

[Occam's Banana]

[T]o claim it can't be done [is] incorrect.

No one has claimed that it can't be done - only that those who can do it are fortunate.
But someone DID claim that every family could do it - and that is just NOT the case.


We [...] simply have to say no to many modern conveniences.

That's the problem. No family should have to "say no to modern conveniences" in order to get by on one income. If they choose to do so, it should be as a result of their subjective desires - because they actively want to, not because they are forced into an "either/or" situation. But our Fed-fueled fiat monetary system (among other things) makes that impossible for many ...

[angelatc]

Ya'll are to be commended!

There is a large portion of society today that couldn't afford a roof without both parents working and I'm afraid it's going to get worse before anything changes..

Yes, and I think a lot of that again goes back to the fact that women are discouraged from marrying right out of high school. By the time they marry, they've already established their lifestyle. They live together first, and have planned financially on having that second income.

Couple that with a lot of women don't realize they want to stay home with their babies until they actually have one.

Back when the dot-com bubble was inflating, wages were rising and I personally knew LOTS of women who seized that chance to leave the workforce.

[angelatc]

On a side note, now is the time to get out. Housing isn't going to get much cheaper. The prices are creeping up but there are good deals to be had especially if you are willing to do work.

There's a house in my neigborhood that is for sale. It's 2000 sf, on almost an acre of land. We're allowed to have farm animals here. It also has lake access to the lake that is literally right across the street.

It needs work, but I could live in it while fixing it up - no problem. They're asking $29,000.

[MelissaWV]

Every family could be if the family lived within their means.

I would not go with "every" in this case at all. First of all, as I said earlier it assumes more than one person available to raise the kids. This doesn't have to be a husband/wife situation, but there has got to be someone to go make the money, and someone to stay home with the kids, by definition. Not every family is in that situation. The other person in the couple may be disabled, there may only be one adult in the family, etc..

Additionally, the remaining income has to be steady enough to provide for the family, which is not always the case even when you cut back nearly everything.

There are a zillion considerations, but it'd be pretty naïve to stick with saying everyone can do this.

[MelissaWV]

On a side note, now is the time to get out. Housing isn't going to get much cheaper. The prices are creeping up but there are good deals to be had especially if you are willing to do work.

There's a house in my neigborhood that is for sale. It's 2000 sf, on almost an acre of land. We're allowed to have farm animals here. It also has lake access to the lake that is literally right across the street.

It needs work, but I could live in it while fixing it up - no problem. They're asking $29,000.

There are a few like that near here, too, but people shy away because for twice the price they can get the heated floors (it's Florida ffs...) and granite countertops (which they will automatically not know how to clean) and a bathroom for each bedroom (if you are low income, you can make do with a single bathroom or 1.5 baths rather than take on debt).

[Occam's Banana]

I would not go with "every" in this case at all. First of all, as I said earlier it assumes more than one person available to raise the kids. This doesn't have to be a husband/wife situation, but there has got to be someone to go make the money, and someone to stay home with the kids, by definition. Not every family is in that situation. The other person in the couple may be disabled, there may only be one adult in the family, etc..

Additionally, the remaining income has to be steady enough to provide for the family, which is not always the case even when you cut back nearly everything.

There are a zillion considerations, but it'd be pretty naïve to stick with saying everyone can do this.

There's another significant reason why "everyone" cannot do this. If "every" family stopped spending on things like cell-phones/cable-TV/Internet, eating out, going to the movies, etc., then employment in the "service" sector of the economy would be decimated - resulting in families with ZERO incomes (rather than just one). It isn't possible for a family to live within certain means if it doesn't have any means to begin with ...

[amy31416]

There are a few like that near here, too, but people shy away because for twice the price they can get the heated floors (it's Florida ffs...) and granite countertops (which they will automatically not know how to clean) and a bathroom for each bedroom (if you are low income, you can make do with a single bathroom or 1.5 baths rather than take on debt).

It freaking amazes me what luxuries people demand these days. People with 100k for a house want granite, stainless appliances, hardwood, stunning tilework, numerous bathrooms while not paying any attention to furnace efficiency, property taxes, foundation, roof, etc. Then they put $3,000 down.

No wonder we had such a massive housing bubble and a ridiculous number of foreclosures.

[jllundqu]

I never really got any "discrimination" either way, except from parents pushing for grandkids and one idiot step-MIL who asked what I do all day. She's the type to just yell a kid into submission, so I turned her down on her babysitting offer to "allow" me to go back to work. She doesn't think it's any work because for her, it really wasn't.

My wife and I are choosing to homeschool our 4 year old... no preschool. It's causing quite a stir for the more 'progressive' members of the family. For us, there are many reasons to homeschool. My wife is a SAHM for the simple reason that a) we can afford it and b) we want to homeschool.

My wife is very old fashioned, one of the reasons we fell in love and married was because of that fact. We like "traditional gender roles" and can't help but laugh at those who don't understand that it simply works best for us.

[angelatc]

It freaking amazes me what luxuries people demand these days. People with 100k for a house want granite, stainless appliances, hardwood, stunning tilework, numerous bathrooms while not paying any attention to furnace efficiency, property taxes, foundation, roof, etc. Then they put $3,000 down.

No wonder we had such a massive housing bubble and a ridiculous number of foreclosures.

The second mortgages were the things that always baffled me. The houses in our then-neighborhood were all 10 years old, max. People were "updating" their kitchens and bathrooms with money they borrowed against the equity. It was crazy.

[MelissaWV]

The second mortgages were the things that always baffled me. The houses in our then-neighborhood were all 10 years old, max. People were "updating" their kitchens and bathrooms with money they borrowed against the equity. It was crazy.

Most things that count as upgrades are simply idiotic. I will admit I just changed the counters in the kitchen recently, but that's because they were laminate with palpable seaming. Quartz works better for cooking in general*, and it looks nice. There were several stores that tried to talk me into granite. They couldn't give me a reason other than "it's very popular right now!" and "haven't you watched HGTV?"


*better than the laminate. I don't mean to imply quartz is the best thing ever when it comes to cooking.

[donnay]

The second mortgages were the things that always baffled me. The houses in our then-neighborhood were all 10 years old, max. People were "updating" their kitchens and bathrooms with money they borrowed against the equity. It was crazy.

Thanks to the brainwashing from Madison Ave. and everyone keeping up with the Joneses. The 'gotta have' generation.

[angelatc]

Most things that count as upgrades are simply idiotic. I will admit I just changed the counters in the kitchen recently, but that's because they were laminate with palpable seaming. Quartz works better for cooking in general*, and it looks nice. There were several stores that tried to talk me into granite. They couldn't give me a reason other than "it's very popular right now!" and "haven't you watched HGTV?"


*better than the laminate. I don't mean to imply quartz is the best thing ever when it comes to cooking.

I would have guessed granite to be on the way out by now. I don't pay attention to trends though. Our house only has 1 bathroom. I grew up in a 1 bath house, but I admit to apparently having become accustomed to 2 over the years. It's been a bit of a transition. Thank heavens I have boys who can pee in the yard.

Looking at an HGTV show, I saw a bathroom redesign. It was my dream bathroom! Huge tub, separate shower and toilet, twin sinks...they proclaimed it "dated" and proceeded to rip it all out. I think they said it was from the '80's, but it wasn't like they used burgundy tiles with black and chrome accents. The walls and floors were all neutral. I just didn't see anything wrong with it.

[angelatc]

Thanks to the brainwashing from Madison Ave. and everyone keeping up with the Joneses. The 'gotta have' generation.

Our house was older - built in the 70's and it had cheap pressboard cabinets. They irritated me - not because they were old and cheap looking, but because they weren't deep enough to put plates in. We took cabinets off of our neighbor's curb and replaced them - had some left over for the garage too. It was a total upgrade, only cost us some elbow grease.

[donnay]

Our house was older - built in the 70's and it had cheap pressboard cabinets. They irritated me - not because they were old and cheap looking, but because they weren't deep enough to put plates in. We took cabinets off of our neighbor's curb and replaced them - had some left over for the garage too. It was a total upgrade, only cost us some elbow grease.

Nothing wrong with that. "One man's trash is another man's treasure."

[amy31416]

Most things that count as upgrades are simply idiotic. I will admit I just changed the counters in the kitchen recently, but that's because they were laminate with palpable seaming. Quartz works better for cooking in general*, and it looks nice. There were several stores that tried to talk me into granite. They couldn't give me a reason other than "it's very popular right now!" and "haven't you watched HGTV?"


*better than the laminate. I don't mean to imply quartz is the best thing ever when it comes to cooking.

I have large ceramic tile counters (which is fine for now), and quartz is the only thing I'd upgrade to because it's low-maintenance. I have a marble table that's a pain in the ass, I can't believe anyone would use that for a kitchen counter.

[amy31416]

Our house was older - built in the 70's and it had cheap pressboard cabinets. They irritated me - not because they were old and cheap looking, but because they weren't deep enough to put plates in. We took cabinets off of our neighbor's curb and replaced them - had some left over for the garage too. It was a total upgrade, only cost us some elbow grease.

Have the same problem with our cabinets, so I just took the doors off and made it open shelving--it actually looks kinda nice because my plates are nice.