Putting Ted Cruz Birtherism To Rest

[TaftFan]

http://www.redstate.com/freedomrepublican/2013/10/19/putting-ted-cruz-birtherism-to-rest/

What do you think, am I right or wrong? I was just debating this on Facebook last night and the opposition had nothing but their views on how it ought to be.

[lib3rtarian]

Someone explain this to me. Conservatives allege that Obama was born in Kenya and so he was not eligible to be president because he was not a natural citizen. Ted Cruz was born in Canada, but he is eligible? Either they are both eligible or they both aren't.

What am I missing here?

[TaftFan]

Someone explain this to me. Conservatives allege that Obama was born in Kenya and so he was not eligible to be president because he was not a natural citizen. Ted Cruz was born in Canada, but he is eligible? Either they are both eligible or they both aren't.

What am I missing here?

Going by the 1790 law, if Obama was born in Kenya he would not be eligible because his father never lived in the U.S. Going by the 1940 law, he would be eligible because there is no requirement for his father to have been a resident of the U.S. At the point of conflict I assume it would go to court next.

Cruz is eligible under both laws.

[Ender]

Going by the 1790 law, if Obama was born in Kenya he would not be eligible because his father never lived in the U.S. Going by the 1940 law, he would be eligible because there is no requirement for his father to have been a resident of the U.S. At the point of conflict I assume it would go to court next.

Cruz is eligible under both laws.

One can only become president if they are a "natural born citizen". This means that both parents are citizens and that the child was born in the US.


In Rogers. v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815 (1971), the U.S. Supreme Court confirmed that persons born abroad are not covered by the 14th Amendment, and therefore, their citizenship can be stripped from them by Congress, whereas Congress cannot strip citizenship from a 14th Amendment citizen, whether born or naturalized here:

“Mr. Justice Gray has observed that the first sentence of the Fourteenth Amendment was “declaratory of existing rights, and affirmative of existing law,” so far as the qualifications of being born in the United States, being naturalized in the United States, and being subject to its jurisdiction are concerned. United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S., at 688 . Then follows a most significant sentence:

”But it [the first sentence of the Fourteenth Amendment] has not touched the acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents; and has left that subject to be regulated, as it had always been, by Congress, in the exercise of the power conferred by the Constitution to establish an uniform rule of naturalization.”

Thus, at long last, there emerged an express constitutional definition of citizenship. But it was one restricted to the combination of three factors, each and all significant: birth in the United States, naturalization in the United States, and subjection to the jurisdiction of the United States. The definition obviously did not apply to any acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of an American parent. That type, and any other not covered by the Fourteenth Amendment, was necessarily left to proper congressional action…

Further, it is conceded here both that Congress may withhold citizenship from persons like plaintiff Bellei and may prescribe a period of residence in the United States as a condition precedent without constitutional question.

Thus we have the presence of congressional power in this area, its exercise, and the Court’s specific recognition of that power and of its having been properly withheld or properly used in particular situations.” Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815, 830-831. (Emphasis added.)

Naional law has always required persons born abroad to be naturalized, whether born of citizen parents or not. Furthermore, those born abroad to citizen parents are subject to conditions precedent which Congress may impose upon them in order for them to remain U.S. citizens, whereas Congress has no such power over natural-born citizens, native-born citizens, or citizens naturalized in the U.S.

Again, not only are children of citizens born abroad not natural-born, the Supreme Court has held that their citizenship is subject to being stripped by Congress, since the Constitution does not directly provide for their citizenship, as it does for those born or naturalized in the United States.

Adding these official Interpretations of the INS, published at the official “.gov” site, to the Supreme Court’s opinion from Minor v. Happersett, the true Constitutional definition of a natural-born citizen, as one born in the country to citizen parents, is further reinforced.

[cajuncocoa]

Why are we pushing for Ted Cruz's eligibility anyway? Who cares? I thought we were all in for Rand.

[TaftFan]

One can only become president if they are a "natural born citizen". This means that both parents are citizens and that the child was born in the US.

I'm not impressed. The Supreme Court does not have the power to legislate.

[Ender]

I'm not impressed. The Supreme Court does not have the power to legislate.

This is not about legislating; it is about what a natural born citizen is. The Constitution was based on natural law and the text which speaks of natural born citizen is reflecting natural law.

[fr33]

Why are we pushing for Ted Cruz's eligibility anyway? Who cares? I thought we were all in for Rand.
^This. Ted Cruz is ineligible because he wants boots on the ground in Syria. Case closed.

[TaftFan]

This is not about legislating; it is about what a natural born citizen is. The Constitution was based on natural law and the text which speaks of natural born citizen is reflecting natural law.

Common law does not have a definitive position on the issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

Don't you think the people who wrote the 1790 law defining natural born citizen knew what they were talking about? Only a year before was the Constitution ratified.

[NativeOne]

Both Parents Must Be Citizens At Time Of Birth. Natural Born. Born Of Soil. American Soil Is Both Parents Being American Citizens. Therefore: It Doesn't Matter If You Were Born Abroad, Or On Mars. If Born Of One American Parent, The Soil Is Than Mixed. And Are Not Natural Soil Born.

[kcchiefs6465]

Why are we pushing for Ted Cruz's eligibility anyway? Who cares? I thought we were all in for Rand.
Motherfucking Politics. (MP)

There's a few people here paid to post their nonsense.

Obirandkenobi and Compromise come to mind.

Take the thread of Rand Paul's statement referring to Charlie Sheen with regards to winning the thoughts of America. MP chopped it up and added a sensationalist title and that was that.

Personally I'd advocate a boycott of mofo politics and a neg rep to anyone posting their doctored "news."

[Zippyjuan]

Both Parents Must Be Citizens At Time Of Birth. Natural Born. Born Of Soil. American Soil Is Both Parents Being American Citizens. Therefore: It Doesn't Matter If You Were Born Abroad, Or On Mars. If Born Of One American Parent, The Soil Is Than Mixed. And Are Not Natural Soil Born.


Source? (not the Constitution). Obama was born in Hawaii which was a state at the time to a US citizen mother and foreign born father. John McCain was born outside the US to US citizen parents in the Panana Canal Zone. Romney was born in Mexico to US citizen parents. Cruiz was born in Canada emigree to a Cuban father and American mother. "Natural Born" means citizen by birth. The other way to obtain citizenship is by Naturalization.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/13/politics/natural-born-president/index.html


This is all the U.S. Constitution has to say about the qualifications to be president:


"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

That's pretty clear. Only a 35-year-old (or older) "natural-born citizen" can be president. But it turns out not be that clear.
Who is a "natural-born citizen?"

Citizen scholarship falls on the side of McCain. He had two American citizen parents and one was working for the U.S. government when he was born in Panama.

Cruz doesn't check all those boxes. His father, a preacher who has delivered stem-winding speeches of his own, has since become an American. But at the time of Ted's birth in Canada, he was a Cuban émigré working for an oil company. His mother, however, hails from Delaware.

Ted Cruz's father makes fiery anti-Obama speech

There is a 50-page report prepared for lawmakers by the Congressional Research Service.

You can read the whole thing here. http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42097.pdf

The key paragraph in that lawerly paper reads this way:

"The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term "natural born" citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship "by birth" or "at birth," either by being born "in" the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien parents; by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents; or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship "at birth."

It does not specifically deal with the issue of someone born outside the United States to one American parent. But if Cruz could claim citizenship at birth, according to the argument, he could claim to be natural born.

The natural-born citizen requirement was put into the Constitution, according to the congressional report, to ward against aristocracy coming to America and setting up a new kingdom.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/13/politics/natural-born-president/index.html

[enhanced_deficit]

Q. As long as Ted Cruz wasn't born in Syria or Iran (two countries he wanted US to invade) , should it matter?

A. Yes

[NativeOne]

Sorry bud but the answer to your quote below is as follows, when you take everything written on the subject (everything), It comes down to one thing and one thing ONLY, American Natural Born is BOTH PARENTS being American Citizens at the time of your BIRTH Period. End Subject..
That is the soil that is being spoken of, by everything that is written on the subject. THE PARENTS IS THE ONLY SOIL WHICH CARRY CITIZENSHIP. NOT THE PLACE OF WHICH YOU WERE BORN.


Source? (not the Constitution). Obama was born in Hawaii which was a state at the time to a US citizen mother and foreign born father. John McCain was born outside the US to US citizen parents in the Panana Canal Zone. Romney was born in Mexico to US citizen parents. Cruiz was born in Canada emigree to a Cuban father and American mother. "Natural Born" means citizen by birth. The other way to obtain citizenship is by Naturalization.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/13/politics/natural-born-president/index.html


http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/13/politics/natural-born-president/index.html

[TaftFan]

Sorry bud but the answer to your quote below is as follows, when you take everything written on the subject (everything), It comes down to one thing and one thing ONLY, American Natural Born is BOTH PARENTS being American Citizens at the time of your BIRTH Period. End Subject..
That is the soil that is being spoken of, by everything that is written on the subject. THE PARENTS IS THE ONLY SOIL WHICH CARRY CITIZENSHIP. NOT THE PLACE OF WHICH YOU WERE BORN.


Are we supposed to take your word because of the different fonts and colors you use?

[NativeOne]

Are we supposed to take your word because of the different fonts and colors you use?

You do Not speak for everyone here...so instead say 'you are not suppose to' as opposed to "Are we"...

i changed the font and color ONLY to allow focus on the words , so it would be there that you will have to focus your next question if need be. So that there wouldn't be ANY confusion.

My people was holding Congress in America thousands of years before the Magna Carter was written in Europe.

So yes i have insight on this matter of soil, that you or those here may not.

[TaftFan]

You do Not speak for everyone here...so instead say 'you are not suppose to' as opposed to "Are we"...

i changed the font and color ONLY to allow focus on the words , so it would be there that you will have to focus your next question if need be. So that there wouldn't be ANY confusion.

My people was holding Congress in America thousands of years before the Magna Carter was written in Europe.

So yes i have insight on this matter of soil, that you or those here may not.

I never said I spoke for everyone, I asked if everyone should take your word or not.

The Constitution is not based on Indian law.

[NativeOne]

I never said I spoke for everyone, I asked if everyone should take your word or not.

The Constitution is not based on Indian law.

You again wish to change the subject, of SOIL and it's true meaning to something about indian law.

First and foremost lets clear the air: i am Native American if you wish.
Columbus was lost, and thought he was in india, even according to your history books.
i AM NOT INDIAN. Unless you to are lost??

So now Soil is that which something comes from, which makes what ever it is what it was born to be.

The soil of which we all come from is not the ground per say, but WHO WE come from.

Hence i come from two parents who are both American citizens from birth.
Therefore i am Natural Born, from that soil which is them...Two American Citizens.

Please state the next question towards soil, if you still have a problem with it.

[TaftFan]

You again wish to change the subject, of SOIL and it's true meaning to something about indian law.

First and foremost lets clear the air: i am Native American if you wish.
Columbus was lost, and thought he was in india, even according to your history books.
i AM NOT INDIAN. Unless you to are lost??

So now Soil is that which something comes from, which makes what ever it is what it was born to be.

The soil of which we all come from is not the ground per say, but WHO WE come from.

Hence i come from two parents who are both American citizens from birth.
Therefore i am Natural Born, from that soil which is them...Two American Citizens.

Please state the next question towards soil, if you still have a problem with it.

The term Native American is really a misnomer. So is Indian, but I don't know your tribe so I generalized.

Basically, your opinion on what natural born is just what you want it to be. It isn't backed up by law.

[Ender]

Both Parents Must Be Citizens At Time Of Birth. Natural Born. Born Of Soil. American Soil Is Both Parents Being American Citizens. Therefore: It Doesn't Matter If You Were Born Abroad, Or On Mars. If Born Of One American Parent, The Soil Is Than Mixed. And Are Not Natural Soil Born.



This is correct and is the natural law that the Constitution and the Articles of Confederation were based on.

It is also little known in today's world and people are always trying to convolute the basic law that the FF used in the founding documents.

[TaftFan]

This is correct and is the natural law that the Constitution and the Articles of Confederation were based on.

It is also little known in today's world and people are always trying to convolute the basic law that the FF used in the founding documents.

"As early as 1350, the British Parliament approved statutes recognizing the rule of jus sanguinis, under which citizens may pass their citizenship by descent to their children at birth, regardless of place."

http://www.heritage.org/constitution#!/articles/2/essays/82/presidential-eligibility

[NativeOne]

The term Native American is really a misnomer. So is Indian, but I don't know your tribe so I generalized.

Basically, your opinion on what natural born is just what you want it to be. It isn't backed up by law.

Say's you???
If i was you, i'd check immigration laws as well as citizenship requirements. No one will question facts that both parents were or wasn't citizens. When both have valid birth certificates of birth.

When both do then the question is muted. (on to the next) which is was they American citizens as of your BIRTH? YES. Then the question is again muted.

Your birth is based on who your parents are, and was they both American citizens at time of your birth. Ergo: Natural Born American by Americans. This and this alone is bases of your SOIL.

NOT the place of which or where in, But To Whom Were You Born.

So your question of my statements being unlawful, are indeed MUTED.

[TaftFan]

Say's you???
If i was you, i'd check immigration laws as well as citizenship requirements. No one will question facts that both parents were or wasn't citizens. When both have valid birth certificates of birth.

When both do then the question is muted. (on to the next) which is was they American citizens as of your BIRTH. YES, then the question is again muted.

Your birth is based on who your parents are, and was they both American citizens at time of your birth. Ergo: Natural Born American by Americans. This and this alone is bases of your SOIL.

NOT the place of which or where in, But To Whom Were You Born.

So your question of my statements being unlawful, are indeed MUTED.

Did you read the article. I already cited the relevant laws.

[Ender]

"As early as 1350, the British Parliament approved statutes recognizing the rule of jus sanguinis, under which citizens may pass their citizenship by descent to their children at birth, regardless of place."

http://www.heritage.org/constitution#!/articles/2/essays/82/presidential-eligibility


A "Natural born citizen" - the most crucial concept of the moment in America - is confusing (and deliberately confused). This concept is used in the Constitution of the US (Article II, Section 1, #4) as a precondition for presidency - and only for presidency, being clearly distinguished from ordinary citizenship. It has not been defined in the Constitution nor in any later statutes, because it had been self evident in the time when the Constitution was written, codified in the then contemporary encyclopedia "The Law of Nations" (1758) by Emerich de Vattel. (As a legal source "Law of Nations" is mentioned in Article I, Section 8, #10 of the Constitution in respect to the authority of the US Congress to enforce the law of nations, in particular - against piracies and felonies on high seas).

The initial government was not based on British law but NATURAL LAW.

[TaftFan]

The initial government was not based on British law but NATURAL LAW.

The book The Law Of Nations is about international relations, not natural law. Also, the Constitution was mainly based on common law.

[cajuncocoa]

Why do we care about this anyway?

[TaftFan]

Why do we care about this anyway?

Because if we as a movement use the birther card against Cruz, we are finished.

[enhanced_deficit]

^This. Ted Cruz is ineligible because he wants boots on the ground in Syria. Case closed.

To be fair, Cruzer had called for a quick invasion of Syria to search, find and destroy their WMDs to make Israel and America safe. He did not call for a very long military occupation like in Iraq or Palestine.

[Natural Citizen]

Because if we as a movement use the birther card against Cruz, we are finished.

What is a "birther"? Please explain this to me.

[RJB]

Why do we care about this anyway?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c

[NativeOne]

Did you read the article. I already cited the relevant laws.

Yes i have , and thanks for the link.

1) i will say this, that a hand full will say, the place of birth over who gave you birth (these are those who do not know the law, or are trying to usurp it).

2) Most will say who gave you birth (i fall in this category).The reason i fall into this category, is because of the laws, which state 'how long you must be in country, before running for said office'.
i believe that your soil requirement (parents citizenship both are Americans at time of your birth) has been fulfilled.

3) Others will say BOTH 'who gave birth as well as place of birth'. (i can go for the latter as well, for it too falls well within said laws).

[Ender]

The book The Law Of Nations is about international relations, not natural law. Also, the Constitution was mainly based on common law.

Actually, the Constitution was based on the Iroquois Confederacy and its Great Law of Peace.

[Ender]

Yes i have , and thanks for the link.

1) i will say this, that a hand full will say, the place of birth over who gave you birth (these are those who do not know the law, or are trying to usurp it).

2) Most will say who gave you birth (i fall in this category).The reason i fall into this category, is because of the laws, which state 'how long you must be in country, before running for said office'.
i believe that your soil requirement (parents citizenship both are Americans at time of your birth) has been fulfilled.

3) Others will say BOTH 'who gave birth as well as place of birth'. (i can go for the latter as well, for it too falls well within said laws).

Number 3 is the original meaning of the natural born citizen.

[MelissaWV]

Reason #1245 why I will never run for President.

[compromise]

Motherfucking Politics. (MP)

There's a few people here paid to post their nonsense.

Obirandkenobi and Compromise come to mind.

Take the thread of Rand Paul's statement referring to Charlie Sheen with regards to winning the thoughts of America. MP chopped it up and added a sensationalist title and that was that.

Personally I'd advocate a boycott of mofo politics and a neg rep to anyone posting their doctored "news."

I only post some of their articles and videos which I found funny. IIRC, they are meant to be a satirical site with a conservative leaning.

I believe ObiRandKenobi is part of the team that runs Mofo Politics.

[cajuncocoa]

Because if we as a movement use the birther card against Cruz, we are finished.

If he's ineligible, he's ineligible! Stop being afraid of your own shadows and grow a spine!! But if he is eligible, I hope we don't start promoting his candidacy here.

[TaftFan]

If he's ineligible, he's ineligible! Stop being afraid of your own shadows and grow a spine!! But if he is eligible, I hope we don't start promoting his candidacy here.

He is eligible, but I am not promoting his candidacy.