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FrankRep
10-17-2013, 09:45 PM
Is Secession’s Time Coming Again? (http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/Articles/tabid/109/ID/1085/Is-Secessions-Time-Coming-Again.aspx)

Chuck Baldwin
October 17, 2013


Pat Buchanan recently wrote an intriguing column titled, “Is Red State America Seceding?” His column clearly reveals that an independence/secession movement is spreading globally. Pat rightly observes that in just the last few years some 25 nations have broken free of mother countries and formed their own independent states. And, no, most of these separations did NOT require violent revolution. In addition, talk of secession is currently going on in at least six other regions of the world. And, as Buchanan correctly observes, the spirit of secession is very much alive and well in the United States.

Buchanan writes, “The five counties of western Maryland--Garrett, Allegany, Washington, Frederick and Carroll, which have more in common with West Virginia and wish to be rid of Baltimore and free of Annapolis, are talking secession.”

But people in Maryland are not the only ones talking secession. Buchanan continues to write, “Ten northern counties of Colorado are this November holding non-binding referenda to prepare a future secession from Denver and the creation of America’s 51st state.”

Furthermore, people in northern California are also talking secession. Again, to quote Pat Buchanan: “In California, which many have long believed should be split in two, the northern counties of Modoc and Siskiyou on the Oregon border are talking secession--and then union in a new state called Jefferson.”

Buchanan goes on to say, “Folks on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, bordered by Wisconsin and the Great Lakes, which is connected to lower Michigan by a bridge, have long dreamed of a separate state called Superior. The UP has little in common with Lansing and nothing with Detroit.

“While the folks in western Maryland, northern Colorado, northern California and on the Upper Peninsula might be described as red state secessionists, in Vermont the secessionists seem of the populist left. The Montpelier Manifesto of the Second Vermont Republic concludes:

“‘Citizens, lend your names to this manifesto and join in the honorable task of rejecting the immoral, corrupt, decaying, dying, failing American Empire and seeking its rapid and peaceful dissolution before it takes us all down with it.’”

Pat concludes his column saying, “This sort of intemperate language may be found in Thomas Jefferson’s indictment of George III. If America does not get its fiscal house in order, and another Great Recession hits or our elites dragoon us into another imperial war, we will likely hear more of such talk.”

See Pat Buchanan’s column here:

Is Red State America Seceding? (http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/is-red-state-america-seceding/)

Buchanan’s analysis is right on the money. The spirit of independence is far from dead in the United States. In fact, the spirit of independence (otherwise known as the Spirit of ’76) has already begun driving people to separate from states and cities in which they have lived for most or all of their lives. The biggest recipient of these many thousands of freedom-minded people seems to be the Rocky Mountain States of America’s Northwest.

Faithful readers of this column know that my entire family, including five heads of households and some 18 family members, relocated to the Flathead Valley of Montana after having lived a lifetime--or the better part of a lifetime--in the southeastern United States. And during the last three years, I have witnessed scores of families also relocate to northwestern Montana from all over the country.

But it’s not just Chuck Baldwin’s move or the people from around the country who have decided to join us here in the Flathead Valley: thousands of people are relocating to what is now commonly referred to as “The American Redoubt.” This area includes Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, eastern Washington State, and eastern Oregon.

By the way, to read a compilation of articles as to why my family and I chose the Flathead Valley of Montana to which to relocate, peruse the material here:

Baldwins’ Move To Montana

Just recently, Pat Robertson’s Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN) did a television report on the growing numbers of people who are relocating to The American Redoubt. See the report here:

Redoubt: Northwest a Haven For Dismayed Americans

The mood all over America is one of intense uncertainty and uneasiness. More and more Americans are waking up to the reality that Washington, D.C., is hopelessly broken (financially and morally), and it’s only a matter of time before something catastrophic happens. They see the way America’s major cities are becoming more and more tyrannical and crime-infested.

In the major cities, public schools more and more resemble prisons; police departments more and more resemble the German Gestapo; local governments more and more try to make criminals out of honest gun owners and more and more attack the Christian values that were once revered in this country. Add any major disaster (natural or man-made) to these growing concerns and the prospect for a normal life in the big cities is practically zero. People are yearning to be more self-reliant, more independent, more secure, and, yes, more free. In fact, for a host of people today, the longing for liberty trumps the desire for wealth and pleasure. What used to attract people to big cities now repulses them. And they are more than willing to downscale their incomes and living standards in order to live simpler and breath freer.

In reality, secession is not a future event; it has already started. People all over America are separating from their homes and families, from their jobs and livelihoods, from their cities and states, and from their very way of life in order to find even a semblance of what America used to look like. This trend will not diminish anytime soon. In fact, I am convinced it has not yet begun to peak.

So, don’t despair my friends. The Spirit of ’76 is alive and well--and not just in America but in many regions around the world also. The smell of independence is in the air. It smells so sweet. Take a big whiff. Then prayerfully decide to what and to where that wind is leading you.

Pat Buchanan’s analysis of the modern independence movement just might be more of a prophecy than anything else.

I cannot help but think of the speech John Adams gave to the Continental Congress as it contemplated the Declaration of Independence. When one thinks of fiery speeches for independence, one normally thinks of Patrick Henry, Sam Adams, or James Otis. But John Adams’ speech to the Continental Congress ranks up there with the greatest of them. So, for all of my freedom-loving brothers and sisters in America and around the world who are already, in their own way, engaged in the independence movement, I conclude this column with the concluding words from that immortal speech:

“Sir, I know the uncertainty of human affairs, but I see, I see clearly, through this day’s business. You and I, indeed, may rue it. We may not live to the time when this Declaration shall be made good. We may die; die, colonists; die, slaves; die, it may be, ignominiously and on the scaffold. Be it so; be it so! If it be the pleasure of heaven that my country shall require the poor offering of my life, the victim shall be ready at the appointed hour of sacrifice, come when that hour may. But, while I do live, let me have a country, or at least, the hope of a country, and that a free country.

“But whatever may be our fate, be assured, be assured that this Declaration will stand. It may cost treasure, and it may cost blood, but it will stand, and it will richly compensate for both. Through the thick gloom of the present, I see the brightness of the future, as the sun in heaven. We shall make this a glorious, an immortal day. When we are in our graves, our children will honor it. They will celebrate it with thanksgiving, with festivity, with bonfires and illuminations. On its annual return, they will shed tears, copious, gushing tears, not of subjection and slavery, not of agony and distress, but of exultation, of gratitude and of joy.

“Sir, before God, I believe the hour is come. My judgment approves this measure, and my whole heart is in it. All that I have, and all that I am, and all that I hope, in this life, I am now ready here to stake upon it. And I leave off as I began, that, live or die, survive or perish, I am for the Declaration. It is my living sentiment, and by the blessing of God it shall be my dying sentiment, Independence now, and INDEPENDENCE FOREVER!”

Amen and Amen!

Origanalist
10-17-2013, 11:11 PM
It's time for all men (and women) of sound mind to rally around the cause of succession.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
10-17-2013, 11:19 PM
It's time for all men (and women) of sound mind to rally around the cause of succession.

Setting your goals too high only means setting yourself up for disappointment.

Origanalist
10-17-2013, 11:22 PM
Setting your goals too high only means setting yourself up for disappointment.

Hmmm. So what cause would you suggest I rally to?

NorthCarolinaLiberty
10-17-2013, 11:28 PM
Hmmm. So what cause would you suggest I rally to?

You pick. I'll help you if I don't need leave my couch.

RonPaulFanInGA
10-17-2013, 11:29 PM
Chuck Baldwin: Is Secession’s Time Coming Again?

When the headline is the form of a question, the answer is always 'no'.

eduardo89
10-17-2013, 11:30 PM
Hmmm. So what cause would you suggest I rally to?

The Sarah Palin for Empress rally I'm holding later this year.

Origanalist
10-17-2013, 11:31 PM
You pick. I'll help you if I don't need leave my couch.

Even if I give you a extra dose of thorazine?

Origanalist
10-17-2013, 11:36 PM
When the headline is the form of a question, the answer is always 'no'.

Anything to back that up?

NorthCarolinaLiberty
10-17-2013, 11:38 PM
Even if I give you a extra dose of thorazine?

Throw in a ham sandwich and I'm in.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
10-17-2013, 11:38 PM
Anything to back that up?

No.

Origanalist
10-17-2013, 11:39 PM
Throw in a ham sandwich and I'm in.

Done. I have some home made ham and bean soup too.

Occam's Banana
10-18-2013, 03:05 AM
When the headline is the form of a question, the answer is always 'no'.

I have an idea for an article. I think I'll headline it "RonPaulFanInGA: Does He Know What He's Talking About?" ... :p

RonPaulFanInGA
10-18-2013, 04:23 AM
I have an idea for an article. I think I'll headline it "RonPaulFanInGA: Does He Know What He's Talking About?" ... :p

Coming from a person who apparently thinks "secession's time is coming", I'd be careful about throwing around "doesn't know what one is talking about" lines.

Origanalist
10-18-2013, 05:58 AM
Never question a banana. They're always right.

tod evans
10-18-2013, 07:05 AM
Ham, beans and Thorazine.....

Could I have opium instead? ;)

Origanalist
10-18-2013, 07:08 AM
Ham, beans and Thorazine.....

Could I have opium instead? ;)

No. Big Pharma can't make money on that.

tod evans
10-18-2013, 07:11 AM
No. Big Pharma can't make money on that.

But, but, Thorazine sucks!

I tried it on the Navys dime while I worked in their hospital....

Athan
10-18-2013, 08:55 AM
It's time for all men (and women) of sound mind to rally around the cause of succession.
As a supporter of the idea of Texas being a Republic again as God intended. This is meant to spread the idea that you are giving the imperial powers a reason to defend itself from our discontent. A break up will unify the opposition. Strategically don't bother with it now. We are ALL in this mess.

Resume talk of secession should be once we have DEFEATED and routed the imperials. Without concerns of secession the imperials will have NO justification for doing what they are doing to the people. Learn from the confederacy, least you wish to repeat the mistakes.

Acala
10-18-2013, 09:11 AM
As a supporter of the idea of Texas being a Republic again as God intended. This is meant to spread the idea that you are giving the imperial powers a reason to defend itself from our discontent. A break up will unify the opposition. Strategically don't bother with it now. We are ALL in this mess.

Resume talk of secession should be once we have DEFEATED and routed the imperials. Without concerns of secession the imperials will have NO justification for doing what they are doing to the people. Learn from the confederacy, least you wish to repeat the mistakes.

Or learn from the Russian Republics that waited until the empire was weak and over-extended, and then broke away.

EVERY empire breaks up eventually. Every single one. There is no question that the American Empire will break up. Let me repeat, and I dare anyone to seriously contradict: the American Empire WILL break up. The only question is when. With luck, it will be soon.

Henry Rogue
10-18-2013, 09:39 AM
What good are new states if they are still part of the union?

Acala
10-18-2013, 09:54 AM
What good are new states if they are still part of the union?

Exactly. That isn't really secession. That's getting your own bedroom so you don't have to share one with your brother. But you still have to mow the lawn and speak only when you are spoken to.

jllundqu
10-18-2013, 11:10 AM
Exactly. That isn't really secession. That's getting your own bedroom so you don't have to share one with your brother. But you still have to mow the lawn and speak only when you are spoken to.

Agreed, but I would also argue that if we had a new "Jefferson" state, Northern Colorado, Superior, etc etc, the balance of power at the federal level would be changed drastically. New reps and senators would cause a gradual shift in national politics.

jllundqu
10-18-2013, 11:10 AM
FWIW I would gladly support such a movement. I already plan on moving to the northwestern US and homesteading.

Acala
10-18-2013, 11:32 AM
FWIW I would gladly support such a movement. I already plan on moving to the northwestern US and homesteading.

I think this is important. Having clear geographic lines of fracture will make the eventual break up easier. I don't have much hope for the Free State Project changing NH much through politics, but I think it is very useful to start concentrating liberty lovers in particular geographic areas for building new communities from the rubble.

I plan on moving to the North West also.

jllundqu
10-18-2013, 11:55 AM
I think this is important. Having clear geographic lines of fracture will make the eventual break up easier. I don't have much hope for the Free State Project changing NH much through politics, but I think it is very useful to start concentrating liberty lovers in particular geographic areas for building new communities from the rubble.

I plan on moving to the North West also.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Acala again

jllundqu
10-18-2013, 11:55 AM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Acala again

I'll be in Graham, WA or Eatonville, WA. Look me up!

Acala
10-18-2013, 01:24 PM
I'll be in Graham, WA or Eatonville, WA. Look me up!

Will do. It will be a few years for me, but I am heading towards northern Idaho.

MRK
10-18-2013, 01:39 PM
Given that Chuck Baldwin and Pat Buchanan are the only popular figures talking about this, in their own minor alternative media outlets no less, I would have to say that no, secession's time is not coming again.

But I can hope.

Occam's Banana
10-18-2013, 06:51 PM
Coming from a person who apparently thinks "secession's time is coming", I'd be careful about throwing around "doesn't know what one is talking about" lines.

Coming fom a person who apparently thinks that answers to questions can be gleaned fom the headlines of opinion articles, I'd be careful about throwing around any kind of lines. (And given that this was the point of my previous post, it is not the least bit suprising that you completely missed it.)

Occam's Banana
10-18-2013, 07:03 PM
As a supporter of the idea of Texas being a Republic again as God intended. This is meant to spread the idea that you are giving the imperial powers a reason to defend itself from our discontent. A break up will unify the opposition. Strategically don't bother with it now. We are ALL in this mess.

Resume talk of secession should be once we have DEFEATED and routed the imperials. Without concerns of secession the imperials will have NO justification for doing what they are doing to the people.

Wanna bet?

They need no more justification than their own constant paranoia and jealous lust for power (both of which are self-generaing and self-sustaining). The only questions are whether and how widely ideas such ideas as secession, nullification, repudiation, etc. will be present to the minds of people when the Imperials lose their grip (as always eventually happens). If those ideas are not active and extant when that time comes, then other ideas much less amenable to liberty will be.

heavenlyboy34
10-18-2013, 07:42 PM
Or learn from the Russian Republics that waited until the empire was weak and over-extended, and then broke away.

EVERY empire breaks up eventually. Every single one. There is no question that the American Empire will break up. Let me repeat, and I dare anyone to seriously contradict: the American Empire WILL break up. The only question is when. With luck, it will be soon.
It wasn't as clean or easy as you make it sound, but you're right. Most (all? IDR) the former SSRs are part of the Russian Federation now and under Kremlin control.

Southron
10-18-2013, 08:09 PM
For secession to mean anything, you need citizen-soldiers.

You know. That part of the 2nd Amendment we like to pretend doesn't exist. The Militia.

Origanalist
10-18-2013, 08:20 PM
As a supporter of the idea of Texas being a Republic again as God intended. This is meant to spread the idea that you are giving the imperial powers a reason to defend itself from our discontent. A break up will unify the opposition. Strategically don't bother with it now. We are ALL in this mess.

Resume talk of secession should be once we have DEFEATED and routed the imperials. Without concerns of secession the imperials will have NO justification for doing what they are doing to the people. Learn from the confederacy, least you wish to repeat the mistakes.

I don't even know how I should respond to that. It literally makes no sense. I'm not trying to start another famous RPF flame war, don't get me wrong. But since when do they really need a justification? They just make one up and the press says amen.

Origanalist
10-18-2013, 08:22 PM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Acala again

Got it.

ObiRandKenobi
10-18-2013, 08:23 PM
i hope so

gwax23
10-18-2013, 08:53 PM
[/COLOR]
It wasn't as clean or easy as you make it sound, but you're right. Most (all? IDR) the former SSRs are part of the Russian Federation now and under Kremlin control.


No there not. They are all independent. Unless you mean heavily influenced by Russia. If so your partly right, some of them are some of them arent.

osan
10-19-2013, 07:39 AM
Is Secession’s Time Coming Again? (http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/Articles/tabid/109/ID/1085/Is-Secessions-Time-Coming-Again.aspx)

Chuck Baldwin...

Pat Buchanan recently wrote an intriguing column... rightly observes that in just the last few years some 25 nations have broken free of mother countries and formed their own independent states.

By virtue of the items in bold, NOTHING fundamental has changed. Pat Robertson's vision is apparently a bit narrow.



And, no, most of these separations did NOT require violent revolution.

This being a possible clue regarding the deeper truth.

Separating oneself from another state is not necessarily any great feat for those "governments" are mostly lapdogs and gofers for the real masters. Ask yourself this: how many of those new "states" are significant in terms of population size, their "radar cross section" on the world stage, in economic terms, whether they are sources of strategically significant natural resources, and so forth. Are they independent of international banks?

If they are independent of such banking and are insignificant, one should not need cogitate too devotedly to come up with likely connections between those two circumstances. Even if Theye own 80% of the entire world and as large as that asset base may be, it is still finite. Therefore, even Theye cannot afford to be spendthrifts with either material assets or those of credibility because they operate mainly on the consent of those over whom they assert dominion. Vast though their power might be, Theye are constrained to some frugality. In this case, the breakaway nation poses no threat to the agenda of world dominion and can, at least for the time being, be left to its devices with reasonable safety for the whipmasters, perhaps to be addressed at a later time.

If under international banking influence, then NOTHING meaningful has changed and Theye continue business as usual.

Were a significant population to break away from its mother nation and establish a land of their own, let us just go all the way here and specify it as free from banking as we know it and based on the principles of proper human relations, if that new land did not collapse under the influences of the generally poisoned mindset that rages across the face of the globe as apocalyptic horsemen, you would inevitably see military forces arrayed against them. "Horrors" would be discovered and just pretexts established therefrom and the rest of the world would revel to see the tiny country reduced to scorched earth in order to "free" the people by killing every last one of them if necessary.

Free men, i.e., men of a free mindset are in terrible jeopardy because the inarticulate and intellectually and morally bereft mob is huge and eager to see those not of the body destroyed. It brings them excitement and thereby pleasure to "know" that scum are being destroyed. Why do you think so many are on board with the various actions to "free" such other people? Why were so many Americans railing to "free" Iraq and Afghanistan? Here, "free" is a fairly thick euphemism for "exterminate". I say "thick" because the meaner is incapable of, or unwilling to muster sufficient intellect to see through the veil. "Free" means exterminate because that to which the meaner is subconsciously acquiescing is not an act of freeing at all; it is one of destroying that which he does not understand and of which he is therefore terrified and therefore against which he is filled with implacable hatred. This is a VERY old tune, mind you.

It is NO different than the religious bigot who goes on endlessly about the evils of homosexuality, illicit drug use, or the environmental lunatic with his "my way or the highway" mentality regarding the "environment", and so forth. The only difference here lies in the code words used, just as it was regarded by many medieval Christians as "freeing" the soul when a "witch" was burned at the stake. It is all BULLSHIT.


In addition, talk of secession is currently going on in at least six other regions of the world. And, as Buchanan correctly observes, the spirit of secession is very much alive and well in the United States.

Alive and completely misguided. "We will secede". No, you won't, in all likelihood because you are not smart enough and possibly insufficiently courageous to do what needs doing in order to actually secede in more than name only. This case may be marginally different in the USA, but I am not convinced as yet, and if so would it be enough?


Buchanan writes, “The five counties of western Maryland--Garrett, Allegany, Washington, Frederick and Carroll, which have more in common with West Virginia and wish to be rid of Baltimore and free of Annapolis, are talking secession.”


But there is no mention of what they would secede into. The other question that rises is: from what are they seceding, the state of MD or the United States?

What structural differences would exist such that a fundamental improvement of more than cosmetic significance would be set into place? And how would such a new nation survive, surrounded by the endlessly hostile military giant of which it was once part? Could the western counties of MD become self sufficient? If not, they would be obliged to import and export with their neighbors and other nations in order not to be reduced to a region fit for nothing much better than stone-age lifestyles. What if the fedgov simply sealed the borders? What would those western counties be able to do to avoid a prolonged death spiral?

One doesn't just secede by the seat of their pants. Not in today's world, anyhow. They had damned better have a spectacularly well contrived plan at hand.


But people in Maryland are not the only ones talking secession. Buchanan continues to write, “Ten northern counties of Colorado are this November holding non-binding referenda to prepare a future secession from Denver and the creation of America’s 51st state.”


See what I mean? 51st state means that nothing fundamental is altered by that virtue alone. What else would be in that recipe that would enrage the fedgov, because in my estimation that would be the only response that would telltale that what I was doing was on the right track in terms of proper freedom.



Furthermore, people in northern California are also talking secession.

And here we are provided with a pristine example of how secession might not necessarily be change for the better. I have lived in northern CA and know the mindset lurking there. It is VERY authoritarian along the lines of environment, guns, and so forth. I could see things going very wrong in such a secession in the same ways I would expect in the event a state like NJ or NY would. They would go blood-simple NAZI - a freak show for the ages.

Do not get me wrong - I am not being a naysayer here. I am all for seceding, but secession must be REAL in order to mean anything. Saying one has seceded in some formal way is a less than futile gesture: it is patently dangerous because it tends to blind people to the truth. Think: meet the new boss; same as the old boss.

Origanalist
10-19-2013, 07:52 AM
//

Origanalist
10-19-2013, 08:02 AM
These new "States" may not be in reality *free*, but if just one succeeded in marginally bringing the power to govern themselves closer to home it's a move in the right direction.

And if people don't like the new boss they are still *free* to go back to the old boss. If people living in Eastern Washington found themselves in a newly formed State and decided they liked living under the thumb of King County better they could move there. That shouldn't stop their neighbors from striving for a little more self determination.

tod evans
10-19-2013, 08:11 AM
I'm betting that the 90% of least populated counties would gladly succeed from the 10% most populated...

Athan
10-19-2013, 10:10 AM
I don't even know how I should respond to that. It literally makes no sense. I'm not trying to start another famous RPF flame war, don't get me wrong. But since when do they really need a justification? They just make one up and the press says amen.

Then let me put it in a way you understand and you can answer. What strategic gain do we have for using secession as a goal instead of going after the central banking cartel, our gold returned? Goals that can discourage the common man faster than those that convert the common man.

Tell me, because all I don't see one. All I see is someone pointing a loaded gun to our foot and saying the whole will make us more aerodynamic when we run.

Now what Occam's pointed out, THAT is a legitimate point. However, THAT needs to be worked on on an individual level. I have nothing against doing that. But to tie it in to a larger struggle that may be in the horizon, I just don't see that point. I personally believe in secession. Hell if I could have a say, I'd re-annex our lost areas of New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Colorado. That will shore up Texans' initiative pretty quickly.

I'm not going to make that my goal however, as I want one in undoing the special interest cartels. Those are goals anyone with two braincells can support.

Origanalist
10-19-2013, 10:56 AM
Then let me put it in a way you understand and you can answer. What strategic gain do we have for using secession as a goal instead of going after the central banking cartel, our gold returned? Goals that can discourage the common man faster than those that convert the common man.

Tell me, because all I don't see one. All I see is someone pointing a loaded gun to our foot and saying the whole will make us more aerodynamic when we run.

Now what Occam's pointed out, THAT is a legitimate point. However, THAT needs to be worked on on an individual level. I have nothing against doing that. But to tie it in to a larger struggle that may be in the horizon, I just don't see that point. I personally believe in secession. Hell if I could have a say, I'd re-annex our lost areas of New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Colorado. That will shore up Texans' initiative pretty quickly.

I'm not going to make that my goal however, as I want one in undoing the special interest cartels. Those are goals anyone with two braincells can support.

I suppose we just have differing opinions on what will discourage the common man.

I don't see one as being any harder to sell, or any more likely to succeed than the other. And I am more than ok with both causes being pushed simultaneously. I don't see them giving up their position as central bankers any less violently than granting succession to a territory. I'm curious as to why you think one is more attainable and understandable to people than the other.

Athan
10-19-2013, 03:34 PM
I'm curious as to why you think one is more attainable and understandable to people than the other.
Because believe me, a LOT of people HATE change. Especially the type of change they haven't taken time to the intellectual consider. They will see it as "weakening our nation" instead of restoring our liberty. Education however can address this. A education system we simply don't have.

Pericles
10-19-2013, 03:37 PM
For secession to mean anything, you need citizen-soldiers.

You know. That part of the 2nd Amendment we like to pretend doesn't exist. The Militia.

Thread winner

Feeding the Abscess
10-19-2013, 03:41 PM
Because believe me, a LOT of people HATE change. Especially the type of change they haven't taken time to the intellectual consider. They will see it as "weakening our nation" instead of restoring our liberty. Education however can address this. A education system we simply don't have.

If people hate change, narrowing the scope of possible outcomes will only make the range of achievable outcomes even smaller. For example, if one person says something shouldn't exist and another says it should exist at a level of $100, the compromise may be $50. If someone says something should only be funded at $33 and the other $100, how likely is the compromise going to be set at $50?

Origanalist
10-19-2013, 04:20 PM
Because believe me, a LOT of people HATE change. Especially the type of change they haven't taken time to the intellectual consider. They will see it as "weakening our nation" instead of restoring our liberty. Education however can address this. A education system we simply don't have.

People do hate change, and fear it. I see the main problem as getting past the indoctrination that things just are set in stone.

There will always be a federal reserve, a State of New York etc......and we just have to accept that. I don't see why the beast can't be challenged at all levels.

Why must we have a federal reserve? What harm is it causing? Why can't we form new States with like minded people? Why must we follow dictates from people removed from our lives and circumstances? Why do they have authority over things they have no experience with? Why must our children be taught what others say they should?

I think the very idea of central authority should be challenged at every point. The education you mention is a real bugger when the same people who believe in central authority are also in control of public education.

Origanalist
10-19-2013, 05:09 PM
CURRENT NORTH AMERICAN SECESSIONIST GROUPS http://middleburyinstitute.org/currentamericansecessionistgroups.html

General

Search FACEBOOK.COM for a secession group in your state, city or community!

DumpDC.com
Mostly the musings of Russell D. Longcore.

LewRockwell.com
Long time advocates of secession who have been carrying an increasing number of postings related to secession and state sovereignty.

Liberty Defense League
Provides "a voice and means of victory for freedom in these States of America." Site owner Tim Baldwin believes "Secession is the answer to the political plight of our generation" and site includes a number of articles about secession.

Middlebury Institute
MiddleburyInstitute.Org
Director@MiddleburyInstitute.org
Est’d 2004

“In answer to a growing swell of interest in realistic responses to the excesses of the present American empire, The Middlebury Institute has been launched by a group of activists and professionals to promote the serious study of separatism, secession, self-determination and similar devolutionary trends and developments, on both national and international scales.
“We believe that, of the options open to those who would dissent from the actions and institutions of a government grown too big and unwieldy and its handmaiden corporate sponsors grown too powerful and corrupt, the only comprehensive and practical one is some form of separatism. Exploring this option is not a step to be taken lightly, because there are established forces that will hamper and resist, and yet it is a legal and viable enterprise, squarely in the American tradition, and of a piece with the worldwide devolutionary current that has seen the breakup of European empires (including the Soviet) and the expansion of the United Nations from 51 to 193 nations in sixty years.
“The Middlebury Institute hopes to foster a national movement in the United States that will: place secession on the national political agenda, encourage secessionist and separatist movements here and and abroad develop communication among such existing and future groups, create a body of scholarship to examine and promote the ideas of separatism, and work carefully and thoughtfully for the ultimate task, the peaceful dissolution of the American empire.”

Secession.Net
Est'd 2000

Promotes radical political decentralization and community-based secession. Goals include: Legitimatize Secession of Small Political Entities; Promote Nonviolent, Libertarian and Decentralist Political Visions; Influence Existing Secessionist Movements; Promote New Secession Movements; Network among these Movements.

TenthAmendmentCenter.com

Site devoted to the recent upsurge in state legislatures of interest in asserting Tenth Amendment rights and pursuing state sovereignty.

United Micronations Multi-Oceanic Archipelago
Ummoa.net

Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization
Unpo.org

“The Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization (UNPO) is a democratic, international membership organization. Its members are indigenous peoples, occupied nations, minorities and independent states or territories who have joined together to protect their human and cultural rights, preserve their environments, and to find non-violent solutions to conflicts which affect them. UNPO provides a legitimate and established international forum for member aspirations and assists its members in effective participation at an international level. ...In today’s world, over 90 percent of conflicts are intrastate. UNPO was founded and designed to fill the gap left by today’s international system and its institutions. Notably, it is the members of the organization, the peoples who are most affected by the shortcomings of the international system, who have created the organization.”

Alabama

FreeAlabama.com

Southern libertarian secession blog.

Alaska

Alaska Independence Party
Akip.org

“Our main "goal" is a legal vote and ballot; one that was not given in 1958 and was in violation of International Law and Treaty. Alaskan were robbed of the choices we were to have as a non-self-governing territory, and steam-rolled into the current classification of a State....The Alaskan Independence Party can be summed up in just two words: ALASKA FIRST!"

California

Search Facebook for Several California Secession groups

Cascadia

Cascadia Independence Project
Cascadianow.org

Cascadia "is a bioregion that incorporates British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, parts of southern Alaska and northern California, and in many ways is geographically, culturally, economically and environmentally distinct from surrounding areas."

Republic of Cascadia
Republic-of-cascadia.tripod.com/

"An international economic relationship? A republic? A bioregion? A cooperative commonwealth? A network of communities based on mutual aid? A utopia? Cascadia is a lot of things to a lot of different people."

Republic of Cascadia
Zapatopi.net/cascadia/

"Now is the time for the citizens of Cascadia to demand their freedom from the oppressive governments of Canada and the United States. For too long have our people put up with indifference and condescendence from distant seats of power. We have been subject to francophonic imperialism and wasteful spending of our tax money. Our entrepreneurs have been attacked by the so-called justice system for merely doing their jobs and growing our economy. When will we say enough is enough?"

Georgia

Dixie Broadcasting
Dixiebroadcasting.com

Features programs on secession, including past shows.

Southern Party of Georgia
Spofga.org

Supports right to secession as part of the "Right of the sovereign State of Georgia to control its own affairs within the bounds expressed in the U. S. Constitution, without federal interference."

Hawai’i

Free Hawai’i
FreeHawaii.org

It's goal is the "restoration of a sovereign Hawaii."

Hawaii Kingdom
HawaiianKingdom.org

"The primary objective of the Hawaiian Kingdom Government is to expose the occupation of our nation within the framework of the 1907 Hague Conventions IV and V and our domestic statutes, and to provide a foundation for transition and the ultimate end of the occupation of the Hawaiian Kingdom."

Hawai'i Nation
Hawaii-Nation.org.

"Restoring Hawai'i's independence is clearly legal, justified, and possible. It is obvious that the existing political and economic systems of the State of Hawaii, aside from being illegal, are not responsible to the just and timely advancement of peoples' rights and livelihoods, nor the sustainability of our environment."

Ka Lahui Hawai'i
hawaii-nation.org/turningthetide-6-4.html
Est’d 1987

“Ka Lahui is a Native initiative - it is something that developed from grassroots Hawaiians. It is based on a democratic constitution, created by Native Hawaiians."

The Living Nation
LivingNation.org

"Mission: To Provide an Affirmative National Voice by Promoting the Prosperity and Dignity of the Hawaiian Nation."

Louisiana

Louisiana League of the South
Louisiana.chapterlos.org

New Hampshire

Free State Project
Freestateproject.org
Est’d. 2001

"The Free State Project is an effort to recruit 20,000 liberty-loving people to move to New Hampshire." While not a secession organization, many members are secession-friendly.

New Hampshire secession-friendly groups
NHliberty.org
NHfree.com

Republic of New Hampshire blog
RepublicofNH.org
Est’d 2006

New York

Independent Long Island (ILI)
Ilination.net

"While the project's emphasis is in creating a viable and independent new country, and seceding from the United States, the proposal for Independent Long Island statehood — '51st state' scenario — will also be seriously considered if it finds sufficient support with the local residents."

Ohio

The Ohio Republic
http://ohrepublic.com/
Est'd 2007

"The purpose of The Ohio Republic is to provide information that will help Ohioans regain the freedoms they were guaranteed by the Constitutions of the United States and of Ohio."


Puerto Rico

Puerto Rico Independence Party
Independencia.net
Est’d. 1946

"The Puerto Rican Independence Party (PIP) was founded in 1946 with the purpose of seeking and obtaining independence by every pacific mean available. The PIP is committed to achieving Puerto Rico's national freedom and laying the foundation for a sound, responsible transition from our present day colonial government to full-flegged independence.

Quebec

Parti Quebecois
Pq.org

The Quebec sovereignty movement (French: Mouvement souverainiste du Québec) of Canada contains sovereignists who advocate full independence through secession, as well as others who advocate varioius forms of sovereignty association. Citizens of Quebec elected its leader as Premier in the 2012 general election.

South

League of the South
Leagueofthesouth.net
Est’d 1996

With chapters in a number of states, "The League of the South is a Southern Nationalist organization whose ultimate goal is a free and independent Southern republic. To reach this goal, we intend to create the climate for a free South among our people by 1) de-legitimating the American Empire at every opportunity; 2) by proving our willingness to be servant-leaders to the Southern people; and 3) by making The League of the South a strong, viable organization that will lead us to Southern independence." The League has issued a statement against racism. It sponsors education events as part of its League of the South Institute.

Southern National Congress Committee
Southernnationalcongress.org
Est’d 2005

“The Southern National Congress is designed as a forum in which Southerners can come together to raise an authentic voice for the traditional liberties, culture, and welfare of the Southern people. ”

South Carolina

Christian Exodus
ChristianExodus.org
Est’d. 2003

Christian Exodus is a "response to the moral degeneration of American culture, and the rampant corruption among the powers that be. The initial goal was to move thousands of Christian constitutionalists to South Carolina to accelerate the return to self-government based upon Christian principles at the local and State level. This project continues to this day, with the ultimate goal of forming an independent Christian nation that will survive after the decline and fall of the financially and morally bankrupt American empire.overnment founded upon Christian principles."

Third Palmetto Republc
Palmettorepublic.org
"Our goal is to create a Third Palmetto Republic, this time based firmly on the principles of individual rights and self-government, and to refrain from rejoining into any confederations. We want South Carolina to stand on her own two feet, free from any superior rule, and free to trade with her friends and allies."

Texas

Texas Nationalist
TexasNationalist.Com

"The Texas Nationalist Movement exists to secure and protect the political, cultural and economic independence of the nation of Texas and to restore and protect a constitutional Republic and the inherent rights of the people of Texas."

Vermont

Second Vermont Republic
VermontRepublic.org
Est’d 2003

"The Second Vermont Republic is a nonviolent citizens' network and think tank opposed to the tyranny of corporate America and the U.S. government, and committed to the return of Vermont to its status as an independent republic and more broadly to the dissolution of the Union."

Vermont Commons
VtCommons.org

"Vermont Commons is a newspaper dedicated to the proposition that Vermonters should peaceably secede from the United States and govern themselves as a more sustainable independent republic once again.Vermont Commons is a newspaper dedicated to the proposition that Vermonters should peaceably secede from the United States and govern themselves as a more sustainable independent republic once again." Various bloggers write about secession.

Wisconsin Republic
WisconsinRepublic.org

"The goals of the Wisconsin Republic are to foster education and discussion about pertinent political issues, defend individual liberty and sustainability, inspire increased citizen participation in state and local government, promote the position that Wisconsin citizens would be better off fully governing themselves in an independent Wisconsin republic."

FindLiberty
10-19-2013, 07:10 PM
Sucks, but IMO, just say no. There's presidential precedent 'cause once
upon a time, the tyrant lincoln made damn sure secession would never
succeed. Nothin's changed; same raw deal awaits...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5dBZDSSky0

FindLiberty
10-19-2013, 08:48 PM
...Education however can address this. A education system we simply don't have. Sadly, that was our last best hope.

Athan
10-21-2013, 11:25 AM
If people hate change, narrowing the scope of possible outcomes will only make the range of achievable outcomes even smaller. For example, if one person says something shouldn't exist and another says it should exist at a level of $100, the compromise may be $50. If someone says something should only be funded at $33 and the other $100, how likely is the compromise going to be set at $50?

Well, I am not trying to say it is a bad idea to secede, nor that it shouldn't be done later. I just can't see the need why it should to be tied in with a revolution that may become hot. Seems counter productive at the outset.

Czolgosz
10-21-2013, 11:27 AM
No need to ponder the topic, nor wonder if they'll "let" people secede.

Authoritarians do authoritarian things in authoritarian ways. If you don't understand the resolve required to achieve success you are part of the problem.

Athan
10-22-2013, 08:11 AM
No need to ponder the topic, nor wonder if they'll "let" people secede.

Authoritarians do authoritarian things in authoritarian ways. If you don't understand the resolve required to achieve success you are part of the problem.
Right. Now *I* am part of the problem. Stop trying to eat your own. It will end bad for you.

libertariantexas
10-22-2013, 04:46 PM
As a supporter of the idea of Texas being a Republic again as God intended.

As God intended? Really?

Can you tell me which God you are referring to, and where in the Koran/Bible/Torah/whatever you found the part about God's intent concerning Texas?

Matt Collins
10-22-2013, 07:30 PM
Don't laugh, I worked in Montana last year, and I met several state legislators who were very serious about secession. In fact the MT House actually passed a secession bill a couple of years ago:


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/23/montana-governor-state-bills-makes-gop-look-bat-crap-crazy/

Keith and stuff
10-22-2013, 07:53 PM
Secession was talked about in New England. The states did leave each other at 1 point or another (VT left NH, NH left MA, ME left MA) but they never left the country. The Southern states left the country, but a few years later they were devastated and brought back into the fold. If this is a time for secession, it's the first time that is right for it in the US.