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ClydeCoulter
10-13-2013, 11:08 AM
Via Ben Swann (1 hour ago)

Vets have broken down barricades at Lincoln Memorial and are carrying them to the White House

Livestream http://m.ustream.tv/channel/mlr13

I have not been able to get the stream.

Anyone else heard of this or what is happening?

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 11:10 AM
No idea. Not a peep from the media. As always.

ClydeCoulter
10-13-2013, 11:11 AM
389415418441777152

389435391654514688

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 11:12 AM
I'll be damned. They are covering it as we speak on Faux.

FrankRep
10-13-2013, 11:13 AM
Via Drudge Report:

Veterans Storm Memorials...
http://www.wtop.com/959/3479186/Crowd-storms-World-War-II-Memorial

Remove Barricades, Bring to White House...
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/10/13/Barricades-moved-WH?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Police in riot gear...
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/10/13/we-are-marching-to-the-white-house-to-return-the-barricades-million-vet-march-descends-on-washington/



Other News:

UPDATED: "Million" vets are in DC to demand their monuments be opened
http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/metro-news/2013/oct/13/million-vets-are-coming-dc-demand-their-monuments-/

'Million Vet March' converges on D.C.
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/10/-million-vet-march-converges-on-d-c--95316.html

Rally at World War II Memorial Ends at White House
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Vets-Plan-Rally-at-World-War-II-Memorial-227574101.html

Million Vet March UPDATE: Thousands Remove Barricades At WWII Memorial; Palin, Cruz, Others Lead “Tear Down These Walls” Chants
http://nation.foxnews.com/2013/10/13/million-vet-march-update-thousands-remove-barricades-wwii-memorial-palin-cruz-others-lead

DC Crowd Pushes Through Barriers to WWII Memorial
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/dc-crowd-pushes-barriers-wwii-memorial-20557651

Vets protest government shutdown at WWII Memorial
http://www.wdam.com/story/23678803/vets-protest-government-shutdown-at-wwii-memorial

Uriel999
10-13-2013, 11:13 AM
send the whitehouse more barrycades!

angelatc
10-13-2013, 11:17 AM
Seeing the police in riot gear seems to have struck a Twitter chord.

Neil Desmond
10-13-2013, 11:21 AM
Are they going to put them around the White House to shut it down? :p

ghengis86
10-13-2013, 11:38 AM
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-13/protesting-veterans-tear-down-dc-barricades-chant-shut-down-white-house

tod evans
10-13-2013, 11:39 AM
I'd like to see those "barrycades" inserted firmly where they belong!

Paulbot99
10-13-2013, 11:43 AM
Seeing the police in riot gear seems to have struck a Twitter chord.

The police should be careful. Those old men beat fascists before.

Uriel999
10-13-2013, 11:44 AM
The police should be careful. Those old men beat fascists before.

Amen.

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 11:45 AM
The police should be careful. Those old men beat fascists before.

I don't think the cops have the nuts to treat these vets like they did the O.W.S. protesters.

tod evans
10-13-2013, 11:51 AM
I don't think the cops have the nuts to treat these vets like they did the O.W.S. protesters.

Vets fight back, even old ones.

Uriel999
10-13-2013, 11:53 AM
Vets fight back, even old ones.

Current active duty, I may end up UA if the the pigs get too frisky with those vets. Right now DC is only around 4 hours north.

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 11:55 AM
Vets fight back, even old ones.

You do this to those vets in wheelchairs and there would be a shit storm.

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/pepper.banner.jpg

tod evans
10-13-2013, 11:56 AM
Current active duty, I may end up UA if the the pigs get too frisky with those vets. Right now DC is only around 4 hours north.

About 2k miles from here or I'd be in the middle of it too.

HOLLYWOOD
10-13-2013, 11:57 AM
lol @ the Praetorian Snipers on top of the White House roof. Yeah, Free my Ass...

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2013/10/20131013_snipers_0.jpg

cajuncocoa
10-13-2013, 11:57 AM
You do this to those vets in wheelchairs and there would be a shit storm.

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/pepper.banner.jpg
Young activists are rabble-rousers and, therefore, expendable. Old vets are revered.

Uriel999
10-13-2013, 11:59 AM
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2013/10/20131013_snipers_0.jpg

Snipers on top of the White House.

Anti Federalist
10-13-2013, 12:03 PM
The police should be careful. Those old men beat fascists before.

+rep

better-dead-than-fed
10-13-2013, 12:07 PM
Good to see those Occupy communists getting sprayed, but those vets seem to be working to liberate the monuments from enslavement.

seapilot
10-13-2013, 12:08 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BWd3EphIIAAsyPW.jpg

]Another score for freedom, GO VETS!!!!

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 12:11 PM
Good to see those Occupy communists getting sprayed, but those vets seem to be working to liberate the monuments from enslavement.

Yer damn straight! I can't believe that any red blooded American would allow these communists a chance to voice their grievances without getting pepper sprayed. That's down right unMurican'.

AFPVet
10-13-2013, 12:11 PM
Great job vets!

Origanalist
10-13-2013, 12:15 PM
Republican Sen. Mike Lee of Utah and Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas were among those who gathered Sunday morning, along with former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, according to WTOP Radio ( http://bit.ly/GXQKGV ). Cruz said President Barack Obama is using veterans as pawns in the shutdown.

//

FrankRep
10-13-2013, 12:17 PM
History: Vets tear down barricades as feds back down (http://www.infowars.com/history-vets-tear-down-barricades-as-feds-back-down/)
Army of vets now marching on White House


Infowars.com
October 13, 2013


The corporate media is avoiding the significance of the latest developments in the “Million Vet March” in Washington, DC.

Vets have torn down “barrycades,” riot police have been dispatched, and snipers deployed, according to reports, as the number of protesters swell outside the White House.

Sarah Palin and Senator Ted Cruz, a Texas Republican, arrived to speak with the demonstrators. Police also responded.

“US Park Police have arrived in front of WH. Some in riot gear! Tea party/veteran protesters start booing,” wrote CNN’s Jim Acosta on Twitter.

The latest developments follow the closure of the World War II Monument following the supposed government shut down.

“Veterans this week were unwillingly pitted as pawns in this crisis. We feel that this should never be the case,” the Million Vet March On Memorials website states. “This is why we will go to Congress after the budget crisis and ask for a bill to be introduced that would prevent any member of the government from closing our memorials down to any American, except for maintenance purposes. In the meantime, we will have our March in Washington DC on October 13th! Our veterans deserve that!”

better-dead-than-fed
10-13-2013, 12:19 PM
Yer damn straight! I can't believe that any red blooded American would allow these communists a chance to voice their grievances without getting pepper sprayed. That's down right unMurican'.

That is like verbally pepper-spraying me for expressing my grievance with those Occupy communists for using their bodies to form tyrannical human-Barrycades.

FrankRep
10-13-2013, 12:22 PM
‘Non-partisan’ group leaves Values Voter Summit to march on WWII memorial with Ted Cruz and Sarah Palin (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/10/13/non-partisan-group-leaves-values-voter-summit-to-march-on-wwii-memorial-with-ted-cruz-and-sarah-palin/)


Rawstory.com
October 13, 2013

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 12:22 PM
That is like verbally pepper-spraying me for expressing my grievance with those Occupy communists for using their bodies to form tyrannical human-Barrycades.

Now that right there is some funny shit. I don't care who you are. "Arrrgh, I've been verbally pepper-sprayed." +rep. LMAO.

thoughtomator
10-13-2013, 12:23 PM
The police should be careful. Those old men beat fascists before.

They're in no position to do so again.

WM_in_MO
10-13-2013, 12:30 PM
I wish I lived closer... had money to get there... had taken the time off to be there...

Uriel999
10-13-2013, 12:33 PM
They're in no position to do so again.

They become martyrs, and then those that can, will.

MelissaWV
10-13-2013, 12:33 PM
But but but... obviously they are helping! They are protecting the White House from moms in cars, duh. Doesn't Obama feel SAFER with those extra barricades?

<s>

This is very well-done. I just hope that they talk back as every politician races to paint this as a victory for their party.

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 12:36 PM
But but but... obviously they are helping! They are protecting the White House from moms in cars, duh. Doesn't Obama feel SAFER with those extra barricades?

<s>

This is very well-done. I just hope that they talk back as every politician races to paint this as a victory for their party.


Oh, the spin is going to be delicious.

Origanalist
10-13-2013, 12:36 PM
http://thisistwitchy.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/palin-cruz-lee-vets-march.jpg?w=190&h=190&crop=1

http://crayfisher.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/spite-house.jpg?w=468&h=351

http://itmakessenseblog.com/files/2013/10/Vets-2-550x374.jpg

http://nicedeb.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/million-vet-march-2-700x475.jpg?w=780

MelissaWV
10-13-2013, 12:39 PM
Okay I know this isn't the point, but I have to laugh. Are you LOOKING at those barricades? They have little scrolling detail on them and are two-tone? WTF? "We're going to keep the veterans from visiting... but... we'll do it in style.

Origanalist
10-13-2013, 12:41 PM
Okay I know this isn't the point, but I have to laugh. Are you LOOKING at those barricades? They have little scrolling detail on them and are two-tone? WTF? "We're going to keep the veterans from visiting... but... we'll do it in style.

Nothing but the best, top notch. No expense spared.......

better-dead-than-fed
10-13-2013, 12:41 PM
They become martyrs, and then those that can, will.

For better or worse, when a military gets annoyed with its own government, things get interesting.

James Madison
10-13-2013, 12:42 PM
http://crayfisher.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/spite-house.jpg?w=468&h=351


Do I spy a Confederate flag? Oh, dear.

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 12:43 PM
Okay I know this isn't the point, but I have to laugh. Are you LOOKING at those barricades? They have little scrolling detail on them and are two-tone? WTF? "We're going to keep the veterans from visiting... but... we'll do it in style.

These are official federal government barricades! Not just some cattle gates. What would some foreign visitor think if they weren't fancy?

Uriel999
10-13-2013, 12:46 PM
Do I spy a Confederate flag? Oh, dear.

Racism, racism, racism! Who knew there were vets from the War of Northern Aggression still alive?

Seriously, if the man does cover this, NBC will see that and run with more Tea Party Obama racist hater stuff.

Acala
10-13-2013, 12:55 PM
Now THIS is interesting.

This kind of situation can lead to the downfall of a tyrant. When one of the most respected classes of citizens - even among the government enforcers - engages in blatant civil disobedience that most of the public will cheer, one wrong move and things get really hot really fast.

FrankRep
10-13-2013, 01:14 PM
https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1380810_10152839484790190_1366002696_n.jpg

Kinda looks like:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a1/WW2_Iwo_Jima_flag_raising.jpg

Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_the_Flag_on_Iwo_Jima

JCDenton0451
10-13-2013, 01:19 PM
I'm surprised nobody posted this here..
http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Big-Government/2013/10/13/palin-cruz-afp.jpg

FrankRep
10-13-2013, 01:21 PM
I'm surprised nobody posted this here..
http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Big-Government/2013/10/13/palin-cruz-afp.jpg

News articles have been posted about it.

Origanalist
10-13-2013, 01:21 PM
Now THIS is interesting.

This kind of situation can lead to the downfall of a tyrant. When one of the most respected classes of citizens - even among the government enforcers - engages in blatant civil disobedience that most of the public will cheer, one wrong move and things get really hot really fast.

It has potential. :)

Feeding the Abscess
10-13-2013, 01:24 PM
https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1380810_10152839484790190_1366002696_n.jpg

Kinda looks like:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a1/WW2_Iwo_Jima_flag_raising.jpg

Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_the_Flag_on_Iwo_Jima

Yay imperialism!

JCDenton0451
10-13-2013, 01:25 PM
News articles have been posted about it.

Obviously, I'm talking about this particular image:
http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Big-Government/2013/10/13/palin-cruz-afp.jpg


Don't these two look kinda silly? What's the purpose of this event anyway?

Feeding the Abscess
10-13-2013, 01:26 PM
Did Cruz borrow Perry's jacket? Semi-serious question.

Uriel999
10-13-2013, 01:30 PM
Yay imperialism!

They started it!

heavenlyboy34
10-13-2013, 01:31 PM
Yay imperialism!
+1

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 01:32 PM
Did Cruz borrow Perry's jacket? Semi-serious question.

I'm pretty sure he just get's it from the Republican props department.

heavenlyboy34
10-13-2013, 01:33 PM
Yay imperialism!
Can't have a good empire without the imperialist symbolism and imagery.

JCDenton0451
10-13-2013, 01:34 PM
My question is why are we supposed to be excited about this:

http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Big-Government/2013/10/13/palin-cruz-afp.jpg

Maybe, I'm missing something, but to me it looks like just another Tea Party event, hardly a revolution. I can even see a TP Patriots logo in the lower-left corner.

better-dead-than-fed
10-13-2013, 01:36 PM
to me it looks like just another Tea Party event, hardly a revolution

That's what they always say about Tea Parties, but..

CaseyJones
10-13-2013, 01:37 PM
Did Cruz borrow Perry's jacket? Semi-serious question.

I have one of those, it's a Texas thing

Brian4Liberty
10-13-2013, 01:38 PM
I'm pretty sure he just get's it from the Republican props department.

http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/19191?feat=593-GN1&page=original-field-coat-with-primaloft-liner

cajuncocoa
10-13-2013, 01:39 PM
My question is why are we supposed to be excited about this:

http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Big-Government/2013/10/13/palin-cruz-afp.jpg

Maybe, I'm missing something, but to me it looks like just another Tea Party event, hardly a revolution. I can even see a TP Patriots logo in the lower-left corner.I'm ready for a caption contest!

Brian4Liberty
10-13-2013, 01:39 PM
I have one of those, it's a Texas thing

It was a 90s thing.

CaseyJones
10-13-2013, 01:40 PM
It was a 90s thing.

I am old to :p

Brian4Liberty
10-13-2013, 01:40 PM
I want to see Sarah put a shell in a shotgun.

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 01:41 PM
I want to see Sarah put a shell in a shotgun.

You betcha!

bunklocoempire
10-13-2013, 01:49 PM
I want to see Sarah put a shell in a shotgun.

She would do it but there aren't any deer around...

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y442/bunklocoempirehi/antisecond_zps75f16031.jpg

Cleaner44
10-13-2013, 01:51 PM
The significance of this is huge. Regular people are standing up to the government and saying NO! This is real, the risk is real and people are taking action. The cops have to be very careful because this would be a PR nightmare for Obama.

fr33
10-13-2013, 01:58 PM
I have one of those, it's a Texas thing

It's what I wear to work.

FrankRep
10-13-2013, 02:01 PM
Vets Tear Down Memorial Barricades, Drop them in Front of White House (http://benswann.com/vets-tear-down-memorial-barricades-drop-them-in-front-of-white-house/)


Ben Swann
10/13/2013

jdmyprez_deo_vindice
10-13-2013, 02:13 PM
I wish they would dismantle the Lincoln Memorial and throw it into the Potomac while they are at it.

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 02:14 PM
I wish they would dismantle the Lincoln Memorial and throw it into the Potomac while they are at it.

I would be for auctioning it off and using the monies gained to pay down the debt.

seapilot
10-13-2013, 02:15 PM
The significance of this is huge. Regular people are standing up to the government and saying NO! This is real, the risk is real and people are taking action. The cops have to be very careful because this would be a PR nightmare for Obama.

The corporate media will spin this as a tea party thing as hard as possible to discredit the truth that veterans that are pissed off at the actions of the Obama Administration. Palin and Cruz are there for political theater so as no real leaders rise and take a position.

Its a lose, lose situation for Obama. Be heavy handed is negative, do nothing and show weakness. The only way out is for Obama to apologize publicly for what he did, which most know that is not going to happen.

jdmyprez_deo_vindice
10-13-2013, 02:18 PM
I would be for auctioning it off and using the monies gained to pay down the debt.

In the auction business you don't typically sell used underwear, used tampons or use medical devices because of the risk of spreading disease.... I would think selling a memorial to Lincoln's greatness would fall under the same auspices.

CaseyJones
10-13-2013, 02:18 PM
I would be for auctioning it off and using the monies gained to pay down the debt.

it would make an awesome cellphone tower

[Edit: oh wait thinking of another one... they all look the same to me, edifices of mans hubris ]

ZENemy
10-13-2013, 02:19 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNOsIB5VMSQ

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 02:23 PM
In the auction business you don't typically sell used underwear, used tampons or use medical devices because of the risk of spreading disease.... I would think selling a memorial to Lincoln's greatness would fall under the same auspices.

A woman I know makes good bank selling panty-hose that a woman has pre-worn. She even pays women she knows $10 to wear new ones for a day so she can resell them at a profit. Some people get a bang out of the weirdest things.

TruckinMike
10-13-2013, 02:27 PM
“Veterans this week were unwillingly pitted as pawns in this crisis. We feel that this should never be the case,” the Million Vet March On Memorials website states. “This is why we will go to Congress after the budget crisis and ask for a bill to be introduced that would prevent any member of the government from closing our memorials down to any American, except for maintenance purposes. In the meantime, we will have our March in Washington DC on October 13th! Our veterans deserve that!”

They should add that an all volunteer grounds-keeping staff would also apart of the proposal. What about that guy from North Carolina with the lawn mower that they booted out...?

jdmyprez_deo_vindice
10-13-2013, 02:29 PM
A woman I know makes good bank selling panty-hose that a woman has pre-worn. She even pays women she knows $10 to wear new ones for a day so she can resell them at a profit. Some people get a bang out of the weirdest things.

I have heard of some porn sites that do similar things. No professional auctioneer I know would sell that stuff knowingly but what people do between themselves is on them. Personally I would probably rather lick a toilet seat than touch a pair of undergarments worn by a porn star. Probably filthy enough to put in a petri dish an grow a new civilization from.

Elias Graves
10-13-2013, 02:37 PM
Visuals are not good for President Stompyfeet today.

http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z352/ElijahGardener/020FBF61-336F-41A0-94EC-20B28023EA24-4915-00000A1B1A27368C_zpsc61cf360.jpg
http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z352/ElijahGardener/7DB074E7-FABB-408C-A07F-7EAB374BBB83-4915-00000A1B2BEE04C3_zps1ec98646.jpg
http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z352/ElijahGardener/28991476-0991-4C94-98C2-8F13A356B35B-4915-00000A1B4A46A06C_zps93f46b8a.jpg
http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z352/ElijahGardener/27D9C53E-546A-45BA-88EB-9A9AD2D27644-4915-00000A1B66155817_zps7bcc6c14.jpg

idiom
10-13-2013, 02:38 PM
Honest to goodness civil disobedience!!

I didn't know Americans still had it in them. There is hope yet.

Elias Graves
10-13-2013, 02:38 PM
http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z352/ElijahGardener/3BD233AA-43C4-48F9-86BE-4CEB73D9F017-4915-00000A1B71D0CB0C_zpsd5b9bd2f.jpg

http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z352/ElijahGardener/F0AF4A57-73B3-49D9-BD35-A1DE00D00B1A-4915-00000A1B4FDDD771_zps6bfc668e.jpg

Elias Graves
10-13-2013, 02:39 PM
Honest to goodness civil disobedience!!

I didn't know Americans still had it in them. There is hope yet.

Once again, the greatest generation shows us how it's done. One more time before the clock runs out on em.

idiom
10-13-2013, 02:42 PM
Can't have a good empire without the imperialist symbolism and imagery.

When Freedom comes to America it will come wrapped in imperialism and waving a truncheon.

Scrapmo
10-13-2013, 02:45 PM
I never get tired of seeing the word "barrycades"

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 02:48 PM
I never get tired of seeing the word "barrycades"

Lol. Neither do I.

eduardo89
10-13-2013, 02:50 PM
Why would the cops be taking the barriers away from the White House? Wouldn't that be giving the President extra protection from the anarchist mobs taking over DC?

qh4dotcom
10-13-2013, 02:58 PM
Did it occur to you all that some of these veterans screwed up and voted for Obama? Why shouldn't they deserve to get what they voted for?

Ender
10-13-2013, 02:59 PM
How come there is only one pic and mention of Mike Lee being present?

Is he not neocon enough for the press?

Brian4Liberty
10-13-2013, 03:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNOsIB5VMSQ

And the moral of the story is that any US General that Obama finds who is willing to aggressively attack American Veterans will be nicely rewarded. Douglas MacArthur is the prime example.

Occam's Banana
10-13-2013, 03:01 PM
I don't think the cops have the nuts to treat these vets like they did the O.W.S. protesters.

Or the way they treated Miriam Carey ...

MelissaWV
10-13-2013, 03:04 PM
Did it occur to you all that some of these veterans screwed up and voted for Obama? Why shouldn't they deserve to get what they voted for?

Um, if everything anyone who ever voted for someone who wound up being anti-liberty were discounted and devalued, literally nothing would get done except some forum self-congratulating. There are people here who voted for all sorts of godawful things and people, and then realized they were snookered.

ctiger2
10-13-2013, 03:08 PM
Ron should be there with a megaphone ranting liberty. The people would go wild.

WM_in_MO
10-13-2013, 03:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kx2NaPZ378&amp;feature=player_embedded

Tar and feather.

libertygrl
10-13-2013, 03:33 PM
I've got tears in my eyes and chills down my spine. Particularly when I saw a Vet placing his hand on the Vietnam war memorial. THIS is HISTORIC. I don't think we've had a moment this historic since the Boston Massacre. Seriously.

The Boston Massacre was the killing of five colonists by British regulars on March 5, 1770. It was the culmination of tensions in the American colonies that had been growing since Royal troops first appeared in Massachusetts in October 1768 to enforce the heavy tax burden imposed by the Townshend Acts.


http://www.bostonmassacre.net/index.html


SPECIAL SHOUT OUT TO THE WOMEN VETS! LOVE THIS PICTURE!


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BWd8JrBIEAA1gWs.jpg

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 03:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kx2NaPZ378&feature=player_embedded

Tar and feather.

That's some poor ass dress, cover, interval and distance.

Anti Federalist
10-13-2013, 03:45 PM
Ron should be there with a megaphone ranting liberty. The people would go wild.

A little disappointed that neither one was there.

angelatc
10-13-2013, 03:48 PM
Let me know when they start using those barrycades as battering rams.

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 03:50 PM
A little disappointed that neither one was there.

Agreed.

Anti Federalist
10-13-2013, 03:51 PM
Maybe, I'm missing something, but to me it looks like just another Tea Party event, hardly a revolution. I can even see a TP Patriots logo in the lower-left corner.

Because, at this point, I'm happy to see anybody willing to take to the streets and tell the system to fuck off.

OWS or this, I'm happy to see both.

fr33
10-13-2013, 03:51 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kx2NaPZ378&feature=player_embedded

Tar and feather.

It's interesting to see tea partiers using the same rhetoric as OWS. Chanting "Shame on you!" etc.

heavenlyboy34
10-13-2013, 03:55 PM
It's interesting to see tea partiers using the same rhetoric as OWS. Chanting "Shame on you!" etc.
That's way older than OWS, brother.

fr33
10-13-2013, 03:57 PM
That's way older than OWS, brother.

Yeah but tea party types (the law and order Republicans) tend to be more respectful (often worshipful) to the cops. I'm glad to see them resisting like that.

Cleaner44
10-13-2013, 04:00 PM
Ron should be there with a megaphone ranting liberty. The people would go wild.

Especially since he is not a sitting politician, it would have more credibility.

heavenlyboy34
10-13-2013, 04:01 PM
Because, at this point, I'm happy to see anybody willing to take to the streets and tell the system to fuck off.

OWS or this, I'm happy to see both.
Interesting that brutally murdered and assaulted mundanes don't rile folks up, but closing a few memorials is the end of the world. :rolleyes: But like you say, whatever it takes to get Boobus motivated.

heavenlyboy34
10-13-2013, 04:02 PM
Yeah but tea party types (the law and order Republicans) tend to be more respectful (often worshipful) to the cops. I'm glad to see them resisting like that.
I agree. :)

FrankRep
10-13-2013, 04:10 PM
It's interesting to see tea partiers using the same rhetoric as OWS. Chanting "Shame on you!" etc.

WWII and Military Veterans are well respected in society.
The OWS were spoiled kids with a fascination with Communism.

FrankRep
10-13-2013, 04:12 PM
Yeah but tea party types (the law and order Republicans) tend to be more respectful (often worshipful) to the cops. I'm glad to see them resisting like that.

The Tea Party types tend to be Christian and only worship God.

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 04:15 PM
The Tea Party types tend to be Christian and only worship God.

Damn straight. Their the only ones that shouldn't get a good beat down by the L.E.O.s. for breaking laws. Arghhh, 'Murica!

jdmyprez_deo_vindice
10-13-2013, 04:18 PM
Especially since he is not a sitting politician, it would have more credibility.

Especially since he is a veteran himself.

fr33
10-13-2013, 04:18 PM
WWII and Military Veterans are well respected in society.
Tell that to Jose Guerena's family and the rest of the veterans that have been abused/killed by society's hired hit-men.


The Tea Party types tend to be Christian and only worship God.
People that routinely recite the pledge of allegiance and feel the need to wear lapel pins or other patriotic gear are worshiping something besides god.

phill4paul
10-13-2013, 04:23 PM
Especially since he is a veteran himself.

It would have been a great way to bridge the generational gap. With his military supporters contributions. Missed opportunity. :(

cajuncocoa
10-13-2013, 04:33 PM
Because, at this point, I'm happy to see anybody willing to take to the streets and tell the system to fuck off.

OWS or this, I'm happy to see both.Yes, I am too. And it doesn't go unnoticed that this particular group of people (WWII vets) are untouchable by the cops with respect to the abuse they would dish out to any other protest group. The cops must feel almost castrated.

Carlybee
10-13-2013, 04:47 PM
Rock on Vets!

cajuncocoa
10-13-2013, 04:57 PM
I wonder why this story (along with, maybe the awesome pic of that woman vet that libertygrl posted in #92) isn't the headline on Drudge? They have links at the top left, but I think it should replace the story about Hank's movie!

Icymudpuppy
10-13-2013, 05:00 PM
I never get tired of seeing the word "barrycades"

Most of the left doesn't acknowledge or even remember the Barry Soetoro references. We should call them Barackades.

cajuncocoa
10-13-2013, 05:01 PM
Barackades....I like that!! +rep

liberalnurse
10-13-2013, 05:05 PM
I'm very active in my local tea party and have been for the past 3 years. Yeah, we say the Pledge at the beginning of our meetings. Big deal. To quote Mark Twain, "Loyalty to my county always. To My government when they deserve it." Last week we had Larry Pratt as our guest speaker. We've had Daniel Johnson, founder of P.A.N.D.A. (People against the National Authorization Defense Act) We've had Robby Wells, the 2012 candidate of the Constitution Party. We had Joshua Price an attorney of Constitutional Law talk to us on State nullification. We routinely invite our County Sherriff and County Commissioners. And guess what they show up, along with other state elected representatives. Congressman Tom Marino has been a guest several times. We drafted the following in Sept. and all the commissioners signed on.




County of Lycoming

Right to Bear Arms Preservation Resolution

Draft Proposal prepared by Thomas Anderson for the Williamsport Tea Party


A RESOLUTION affirming the individual right of citizens of Lycoming County, Pennsylvania, to keep and bear arms.

WHEREAS the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States reads, “A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”; and

WHEREAS Article 1, Section 21 of the Constitution of Pennsylvania reads, “The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned”; and

WHEREAS federal, state or local measures meant to infringe on this right have been proposed, threatened, or enacted; and

WHEREAS every elected official takes an oath of office to “support, obey and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of this Commonwealth”;



NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, by the Board of Commissioners of Lycoming County, Pennsylvania, as follows:
1.All federal, state, or local acts, laws, orders, rules, or regulations regarding firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition – past, present or future – are a violation of the Constitution of Pennsylvania and the Constitution of the United States, are hereby declared to be invalid, and shall be considered null and void and of no effect in the County of Lycoming within the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.


2.It shall be the duty of the Board of Commissioners or the County Sheriff to adopt or enact any and all measures as may be necessary to prevent the unconstitutional enforcement of any federal, state, or local acts, laws, orders, rules, or regulations restricting the ownership, conveyance, or use firearms, ammunition, or firearms accessories pursuant to Pennsylvania criminal and civil law.


3.The Board of Commissioners of Lycoming County calls upon the Governor and Legislators of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to immediately pass an act to nullify the implementation within the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania any federal law, executive order, or regulations restricting the right to keep and bear arms.



Duly adopted this ___ day of _______, 2013

_______________________________

Jeff C. Wheeland, Chairman

_______________________________

Ernest P. Larson, Vice Chairman

_______________________________

Tony R. Mussare, Secretary

ATTEST:

_______________________________

Ann M. Gehret, Chief Clerk

Last Updated on Wednesday, 18 September 2013 22:00


So, what exactly are we "worshiping"? I quietly read all the tea party bashing comments here and now I say to you, What are you doing to change things at a local level? We're having our voices heard at a local level and our meetings are bringing in new people all the time. We are officially apolitical but most of us in the leadership positions are RP supporters. We toughed it out at the beginning and now we are in control. :cool:

Joeschmo
10-13-2013, 05:06 PM
Once again, the greatest generation shows us how it's done. One more time before the clock runs out on em.

Not to take anything away from WW2 Veterans, but there weren't many there at all. It was mostly Vietnam vets, Iraq and Afghanistan veterans.

Carson
10-13-2013, 05:12 PM
White House Barry'ed in barricades?

heavenlyboy34
10-13-2013, 05:13 PM
I'm very active in my local tea party and have been for the past 3 years. Yeah, we say the Pledge at the beginning of our meetings. Big deal. To quote Mark Twain, "Loyalty to my county always. To My government when they deserve it." Last week we had Larry Pratt as our guest speaker. We've had Daniel Johnson, founder of P.A.N.D.A. (People against the National Authorization Defense Act) We've had Robby Wells, the 2012 candidate of the Constitution Party. We had Joshua Price an attorney of Constitutional Law talk to us on State nullification. We routinely invite our County Sherriff and County Commissioners. And guess what they show up, along with other state elected representatives. Congressman Tom Marino has been a guest several times. We drafted the following in Sept. and all the commissioners signed on.



So, what exactly are we "worshiping"? I quietly read all the tea party bashing comments here and now I say to you, What are you doing to change things at a local level? We're having our voices heard at a local level and our meetings are bringing in new people all the time. We are officially apolitical but most of us in the leadership positions are RP supporters. We toughed it out at the beginning and now we are in control. :cool:
The flag is a symbol of the government, not the country. Pledging allegience is worshiping the State, as Bellamy intended it to be.

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/bellamy-salute.jpg

liberalnurse
10-13-2013, 05:25 PM
The flag is a symbol of the government, not the country. Pledging allegience is worshiping the State, as Bellamy intended it to be.

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/bellamy-salute.jpg

I disagree. I believe it's a symbol and a of our Nation and the People not the government. It's a pledge to our country not the government.

The American flag represents the dignity, unity, and strength of the Americans. Its colours are symbolic, as are its thirteen horizontal stripes standing for the 13 original colonies, and its 50 stars representing the 50 states of the union. The red in the flag represents Valour; blue, Perseverance and Justice; and white, Purity and Innocence.

MelissaWV
10-13-2013, 05:28 PM
I disagree. I believe it's a symbol and a of our Nation and the People not the government. It's a pledge to our country not the government.

And to the Republic for which it stands. Yep.

Not the Republic that those abusing their powers would have it sadly become.

Uriel999
10-13-2013, 05:39 PM
I think this may just be one of the last straws. The people needed something generic and non-partisan to unite them. This was it. Everybody is getting fed up, but people have been so divided so long they needed something to remind them that above all they are Americans.

heavenlyboy34
10-13-2013, 05:54 PM
I disagree. I believe it's a symbol and a of our Nation and the People not the government. It's a pledge to our country not the government.
You can disagree if you want, but you're mistaken.



The Pledge of Allegiance
A Short Historyby Dr. John W. BaerCopyright 1992 by Dr. John W. Baer (http://oldtimeislands.org/pledge/pledgesig.gif)



http://oldtimeislands.org/pledge/pledge.htm
Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).
Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.
The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.
In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'
His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]
Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas.He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'
In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.
In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.
Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.
What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:

It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...
The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?
Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...
If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.
Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'
A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality,liberty and justice for all.'
Make special note of this:
And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches.

It's a fascist meme.

Antischism
10-13-2013, 05:56 PM
I disagree. I believe it's a symbol and a of our Nation and the People not the government. It's a pledge to our country not the government.

The flag is nothing but a perverted symbol of exceptionalism and militarism. Flags are most prevalent when the country is about to wage a war and they're mass-produced (like post-9/11) because Americans want to show "patriotism" by desecrating another nation—because we're supposedly always right and moral. It's a symbol of American conquest and nationalism.

Dousing a flag in gasoline, spitting on it, and watching it go up in flames is more liberating than anything it has ever stood for.

heavenlyboy34
10-13-2013, 06:00 PM
The flag is nothing but a perverted symbol of exceptionalism and militarism. Flags are most prevalent when the country is about to wage a war and they're mass-produced (like post-9/11) because Americans want to show "patriotism" by desecrating another nation—because we're supposedly always right and moral. It's a symbol of American conquest and nationalism.

Dousing a flag in gasoline, spitting on it, and watching it go up in flames is more liberating than anything it has ever stood for.
+rep :cool:

devil21
10-13-2013, 06:07 PM
In a show of solidarity with the vets, barrycades are being trampled all across the country. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJqmStnPvEw#t=13

Antischism
10-13-2013, 06:15 PM
On topic:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/10/13/1381694340241/Sarah-Palin-and-Senator-T-008.jpg

"You look around though and you see these barricades and you have to ask yourself is this any way that a commander in chief would show his respect, his gratitude to our military. This is a matter of shutdown priorities." -Sarah Palin

Thousands of people, accompanied by tractors with blaring horns, converged on the plaza and sang "God bless America"

If there is a God, why would He bless this country or those who fight unjust wars? If there is a God, I think He would look at individuals, not an entire entity with a history of tyranny and violence/nation-building.

Scrapmo
10-13-2013, 06:31 PM
In a show of solidarity with the vets, barrycades are being trampled all across the country. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJqmStnPvEw#t=13

A tense standoff occurred when police arrived on the scene. The protester was shot for non-compliance.

MelissaWV
10-13-2013, 06:35 PM
A tens standoff occurred when police arrived on the scene. The protester was shot for non-compliance.

I salute his sacrifice:

http://themeathouseblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/bison-burger.jpg

Scrapmo
10-13-2013, 06:38 PM
I salute his sacrifice:

http://themeathouseblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/bison-burger.jpg


Tragic ending. I hear he was a vegan and animal rights activist.

Pericles
10-13-2013, 06:38 PM
The flag is nothing but a perverted symbol of exceptionalism and militarism. Flags are most prevalent when the country is about to wage a war and they're mass-produced (like post-9/11) because Americans want to show "patriotism" by desecrating another nation—because we're supposedly always right and moral. It's a symbol of American conquest and nationalism.

Dousing a flag in gasoline, spitting on it, and watching it go up in flames is more liberating than anything it has ever stood for.

It is never too late to stop being an ass.

PaulConventionWV
10-13-2013, 06:39 PM
Good to see those Occupy communists getting sprayed, but those vets seem to be working to liberate the monuments from enslavement.

Oh, that's good, is it? I'm no fan of Occupy, but police brutality still isn't "good."

Cleaner44
10-13-2013, 06:45 PM
Visuals are not good for President Stompyfeet today.

http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z352/ElijahGardener/27D9C53E-546A-45BA-88EB-9A9AD2D27644-4915-00000A1B66155817_zps7bcc6c14.jpg

There are ways to easily remove these types of plastic restraints. I suggest each of us learn and practice these techniques. YouTube is your friend.

Tinnuhana
10-13-2013, 06:52 PM
Maybe Ron Paul didn't go to this because he would think it was being "opportunistic"? Don't know. Seeing some of the comments about Palin and Cruz...

PaulConventionWV
10-13-2013, 07:12 PM
It's interesting to see tea partiers using the same rhetoric as OWS. Chanting "Shame on you!" etc.

It's not the same rhetoric. They're saying "Shame on you!" for different reasons. Rhetoric has to do with what they're actually saying, not just what they think of the people who work against them.

PaulConventionWV
10-13-2013, 07:19 PM
Tell that to Jose Guerena's family and the rest of the veterans that have been abused/killed by society's hired hit-men.


People that routinely recite the pledge of allegiance and feel the need to wear lapel pins or other patriotic gear are worshiping something besides god.

Yep. They're called false idols. Many Christians don't even realize what they're doing.

heavenlyboy34
10-13-2013, 09:26 PM
Yep. They're called false idols. Many Christians don't even realize what they're doing.+rep

FrankRep
10-13-2013, 09:32 PM
https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1375755_10151937957094855_1824161108_n.jpg

Christian Liberty
10-13-2013, 09:53 PM
Young activists are rabble-rousers and, therefore, expendable. Old vets are revered.

Pretty much. The military worship is sickening. I honestly wouldn't have anything to do with this. I hate the government more than they do, ALL of it. Why would I protect ex-government thugs against the current ones? Do you think they have any real principled opposition to statism? The vast majority of them probably not And I'm not condemning minarchists or constitutionalists with that statement, I'm condemning the vast majority of America that proudly waves their flags, support their troops and the Republican Party.

So the barricades were broken doown at the Lincoln Memorial. Statists can now worship at their shrine. Am I supposed to give a crap?

Laurence Vance explains my thoughts:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/i-think-id-rather-sit-down/

Mind you, I am absolutely opposed to any police brutality against anyone. I find it absolutely repulsive, and you know that. But I want nothing to do with any kind of a movement that is based around "How dare they slight 'our vets' [Read: Hired ex-killers or supporters of the same] or 'How dare they prevent us from gazing on our shrines where we worship America' rather than a real opposition to government, or at least big oppressive government, as such.

Do you guys get what I'm trying to say here?

better-dead-than-fed
10-13-2013, 09:55 PM
Oh, that's good, is it? I'm no fan of Occupy, but police brutality still isn't "good."

They were blocking the sidewalk.

better-dead-than-fed
10-13-2013, 09:57 PM
I wish they would dismantle the Lincoln Memorial and throw it into the Potomac while they are at it.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv67a210nz1r6m1z5o1_500.jpg

better-dead-than-fed
10-13-2013, 09:58 PM
The Tea Party types tend to be Christian and only worship God.

Damn straight. Their the only ones that shouldn't get a good beat down by the L.E.O.s. for breaking laws. Arghhh, 'Murica!

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luzvfdvCiG1r6m1z5o1_500.jpg

Carlybee
10-13-2013, 09:58 PM
Pretty much. The military worship is sickening. I honestly wouldn't have anything to do with this. I hate the government more than they do, ALL of it. Why would I protect ex-government thugs against the current ones? Do you think they have any real principled opposition to statism? The vast majority of them probably not And I'm not condemning minarchists or constitutionalists with that statement, I'm condemning the vast majority of America that proudly waves their flags, support their troops and the Republican Party.

So the barricades were broken doown at the Lincoln Memorial. Statists can now worship at their shrine. Am I supposed to give a crap?

Laurence Vance explains my thoughts:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/i-think-id-rather-sit-down/

Mind you, I am absolutely opposed to any police brutality against anyone. I find it absolutely repulsive, and you know that. But I want nothing to do with any kind of a movement that is based around "How dare they slight 'our vets' [Read: Hired ex-killers or supporters of the same] or 'How dare they prevent us from gazing on our shrines where we worship America' rather than a real opposition to government, or at least big oppressive government, as such.

Do you guys get what I'm trying to say here?

I don't bash veterans. Most of them have seen enough of the true horrors of war to know exactly why we need better foreign policy...at least those who will stand up and protest. If the SHTF, they may be the only thing between you and the militarized police. I don't consider that military worship. I think you might be surprised how many veterans are anti-war....maybe not necessarily old WWII vets but the younger ones. My uncle was a WWII vet and he was a POW held captive in the Phillipines. He never talked about the war after he came home. Not everyone is John McCain.

ClydeCoulter
10-13-2013, 10:05 PM
They were blocking the sidewalk.

Maybe you've never been to a flea market?

Uriel999
10-13-2013, 10:06 PM
Interesting that brutally murdered and assaulted mundanes don't rile folks up, but closing a few memorials is the end of the world. :rolleyes: But like you say, whatever it takes to get Boobus motivated.


Pretty much. The military worship is sickening. I honestly wouldn't have anything to do with this. I hate the government more than they do, ALL of it. Why would I protect ex-government thugs against the current ones? Do you think they have any real principled opposition to statism? The vast majority of them probably not And I'm not condemning minarchists or constitutionalists with that statement, I'm condemning the vast majority of America that proudly waves their flags, support their troops and the Republican Party.

So the barricades were broken doown at the Lincoln Memorial. Statists can now worship at their shrine. Am I supposed to give a crap?

Laurence Vance explains my thoughts:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/i-think-id-rather-sit-down/

Mind you, I am absolutely opposed to any police brutality against anyone. I find it absolutely repulsive, and you know that. But I want nothing to do with any kind of a movement that is based around "How dare they slight 'our vets' [Read: Hired ex-killers or supporters of the same] or 'How dare they prevent us from gazing on our shrines where we worship America' rather than a real opposition to government, or at least big oppressive government, as such.

Do you guys get what I'm trying to say here?

I was going to tear into you....but then I saw you stated you are 18. I will give you time to grow up. However, I want you to remember, while you where trying to socially adjust in middle school and again in high school those of us "thugs" were donating and voting for Ron Paul. But hey, it's cool you must know everything...after all you are an "adult."

Christian Liberty
10-13-2013, 10:20 PM
I might be too cynical, but I honestly don't see how seeing civil disobedience solely mmotivated by a desire to worship America and the hired killers who did wickedness in its name is really "encouraging." I'm very, very glad that Ron isn't here participating in the worship of State that's going on. I'd actually be disappointed in him if he did show up.

Patriotic Populism IS NOT libertarianism, and it never will be. The Tea Party as a group is not libertarianism either.

Mind you, I can definitely tell the difference between those of you who simply like seeing civil disobedience in general (HB, AF, and some others) and those who actually do subscribe to the kind of America-worshipping nonsense that's being displayed here, but I honestly see nothing to like here. Boobus is upset, not because our government is oppressive and wicked and because of the wickedness it does, but because the biggest perpetrators of the wickedness are not being given sufficient respect.

Mind you, I get that different people in the liberty movement, fully principled, are going to deal with this kind of stuff in different ways. Laurence Vance and Tom Dilorenzo pretty much flat out said what I said, in different terms. Ron Paul probably won't go there, he's more soft-spoken and I respect that. Even still, I think the excitement over all of this crap just shows how doomed we are. That sheep are disgusted because the State is not being given its worship is a sign of our DOOM, not of any kind of awakening.

Slutter McGee
10-13-2013, 10:23 PM
I have one of those, it's a Texas thing

I do also. And screw all you northern idiots who dont understand.

Slutter McGee

AuH20
10-13-2013, 10:23 PM
Pretty much. The military worship is sickening. I honestly wouldn't have anything to do with this. I hate the government more than they do, ALL of it. Why would I protect ex-government thugs against the current ones? Do you think they have any real principled opposition to statism? The vast majority of them probably not And I'm not condemning minarchists or constitutionalists with that statement, I'm condemning the vast majority of America that proudly waves their flags, support their troops and the Republican Party.

So the barricades were broken doown at the Lincoln Memorial. Statists can now worship at their shrine. Am I supposed to give a crap?

Laurence Vance explains my thoughts:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/i-think-id-rather-sit-down/

Mind you, I am absolutely opposed to any police brutality against anyone. I find it absolutely repulsive, and you know that. But I want nothing to do with any kind of a movement that is based around "How dare they slight 'our vets' [Read: Hired ex-killers or supporters of the same] or 'How dare they prevent us from gazing on our shrines where we worship America' rather than a real opposition to government, or at least big oppressive government, as such.

Do you guys get what I'm trying to say here?

Give me a break. So you don't like community, I take it? There is good and bad in the armed forces.

Christian Liberty
10-13-2013, 10:28 PM
I was going to tear into you....but then I saw you stated you are 18. I will give you time to grow up. However, I want you to remember, while you where trying to socially adjust in middle school and again in high school those of us "thugs" were donating and voting for Ron Paul. But hey, it's cool you must know everything...after all you are an "adult."

HB isn't 18, and there are plenty of people here who feel the same way as I do about the military.

I respect that there are many members of the military who support Ron Paul and oppose unjust wars, but opposing wickedness in the legal sense is no excuse for doing it under orders. Just like wanting to change a bad law is no excuse for enforcing it.

Go ahead and "Tear into me". I can take it. And I'll throw the fact that you're still a member of a murderous organization right back at you. What, are you going to try to tell me that you're fighting for our freedoms too? That if it weren't for "brave" men like you, we'd all be speaking German? Give me a break.

This thread is showing me that there really isn't such thing as a "liberty movement". I get that there's always going to be some mercy given when politicians like Rand Paul make stupid pro-America comments to break through to Boobus. I get that there is always going to be some degree of support for ANY kind of civil disobedience, even if as a Biblical Christian I find the implicit statism here to be disgusting. But the fact that most people here are no suddenly supporting the ex-killers?

You guys haven't read enough Vance:p

Christian Liberty
10-13-2013, 10:32 PM
Give me a break. So you don't like community, I take it? There is good and bad in the armed forces.

What on earth do they do that's good? I hear this claim about cops too, and honestly, I don't see any real evidence of it. At worst we have some who do evil and some who are lucky enough to get away with only taking morally neutral actions. Are they really doing anything "good" or "heroic"? And even if they did, it would still be a wicked organization. To save 10 innocent lives and kill one innocent person is still murder.

I know that the beltway type people are going to disagree with me here. Honestly, I'd probably still support you guys if you were poliicians, the same way I support (Rand) Paul, Amash, Massie, etc. I expect politicians to take logically contradictory positions sometimes. I find it frustrating here.

I'm curious what my fellow radicals and ancaps (whether you use that term or not, are just a radical minarchist, whatever) think of what I said. Specifically, I'd love to see HB or AF expound on why this is actually useful in the light of what I said.

AuH20
10-13-2013, 10:35 PM
What on earth do they do that's good? I hear this claim about cops too, and honestly, I don't see any real evidence of it. At worst we have some who do evil and some who are lucky enough to get away with only taking morally neutral actions. Are they really doing anything "good" or "heroic"? And even if they did, it would still be a wicked organization. To save 10 innocent lives and kill one innocent person is still murder.

I know that the beltway type people are going to disagree with me here. Honestly, I'd probably still support you guys if you were poliicians, the same way I support (Rand) Paul, Amash, Massie, etc. I expect politicians to take logically contradictory positions sometimes. I find it frustrating here.

I'm curious what my fellow radicals and ancaps (whether you use that term or not, are just a radical minarchist, whatever) think of what I said. Specifically, I'd love to see HB or AF expound on why this is actually useful in the light of what I said.

You're implying that everyone that has worn the uniform has been ordered to recreate the Malai Massacre. I don't worship anyone with stripes on their arm, but I thought the hysterical 'baby killer' meme died in the 1960s.

Christian Liberty
10-13-2013, 10:43 PM
I don't bash veterans. Most of them have seen enough of the true horrors of war to know exactly why we need better foreign policy...at least those who will stand up and protest. If the SHTF, they may be the only thing between you and the militarized police. I don't consider that military worship. I think you might be surprised how many veterans are anti-war....maybe not necessarily old WWII vets but the younger ones. My uncle was a WWII vet and he was a POW held captive in the Phillipines. He never talked about the war after he came home. Not everyone is John McCain.

I'm not saying we have to "Bash" them either. To clarify, my opinions on the military are similar to that of Laurence Vance, not the Westboro Baptist Church, if you know what I'm saying.

You are very right that veterans may well stand between us and the militized police, and I agree that that's not military worship. (If I accused you or Cajun of being military worshippers, I would seriously, seriously reconsider my definition.)

This isn't really so much about the veterans themselves for me as it is the people who blindly accept virtually any government tyranny, but slight the veterans and wow they're ticked. Those people are just state-worshippers and statist worshippers, bottom line. If someone is completely OK with the War In Iraq, Obamacare, the Fed, gun control, etc. but he's offended that the altars to the Golden Calf of the US military are shut down, yeah, he's a state-worshipper. I seriously doubt you'd disagree with that.

I am not saying that the people here (or at least the ones who apply) who are against government nonsense in general, including this, are state-worshippers. In fact, by that definition, I myself would be a state worshipper, since I find it absolutely stupid that they're shutting the memorials down. I just also find it stupid that people care so much about this. They care more about honoring those who went overseas to murder than they are the fact that the murder is happening and that our money is being stolen to pay for it.

I know I'm rambling here... I just have so many thoughts going through my head. The TLDR is that its not so much about bashing the veterans themselves, though I do have a problem with what they do overseas, as it is with the people who absolutely adore them and worship them, and America in general.

(Note: despite the use of religion, this is a political analogy, please take it as such)

I guess I kind of view the US Government as being like the Catholic Church, before the Reformation. Say that a group of people broke off from the corrupt Church and started a religion that taught that works alone save and that Jesus is not God. Now, as a Baptist, I completely disagree with Catholic doctrine, and do not view it as the same religion I believe in in any sense. I'm opposed to it. Yet, I wouldn't support this breakaway group either. They are actually FURTHER from what I believe in than the Catholic Church to begin with.

The US Government is completely out of control, and is filled with people that worship it. People are rejecting it because it doesn't allow them to worship it as much as they'd like. So, while I completely oppose the US government, this civil disobedience is going in the COMPLETE OPPOSITE DIRECTION that we need to go.

As for the comparisons to 1776, the Founders didn't worship the Redcoats or want to see tyranny from a different political party. I cannot imagine 1776 happening today, necessary though it may be. And I wouldn't support just any revolution if it wasn't based around anything close to my beliefs and values.

fr33
10-13-2013, 10:46 PM
I'm curious what my fellow radicals and ancaps (whether you use that term or not, are just a radical minarchist, whatever) think of what I said. Specifically, I'd love to see HB or AF expound on why this is actually useful in the light of what I said.

I'm sympathetic to hating on military in it's current form but I think you're petty, ignorant, and myopic. People don't change deeply held beliefs overnight. These folks are standing up to current tyranny while praising past tyranny. You and I have never lived in a free society and the fact that we are alive today is proof that we used and took part in tyranny to our advantage. Cast those stones all that you want but I guarantee you take part in the same system on a daily basis when you rely on the food you eat and the electricity you use.

You were conveniently not present here to condemn Ron Paul when he bragged about getting more donations from active duty soldiers. Learn how to pick your battles more wisely.

Christian Liberty
10-13-2013, 10:47 PM
You're implying that everyone that has worn the uniform has been ordered to recreate the Malai Massacre. I don't worship anyone with stripes on their arm, but I thought the hysterical 'baby killer' meme died in the 1960s.

I don't believe in going around and calling them that either.

First of all, I'm not saying every person in the military kills people. What I am saying is that ultimately they all MIGHT be ordered to do so. And its not just "Civilians." If you were to kill Iraqi soldiers or Afghan soldiers who are defending their country, even if they are trying to kill American soldiers who are occupying their country, that's murder. Calculated "Collateral damage" is murder. Serving as a chaplain in the military is an implict support for it because you can't oppose it. Serving as a medic in a combat zone overseas is supporting aggression. Do you get where I'm going with this?

Second of all, I recognize where I am. I'm talking to people who should know what liberty and the liberty movement are. I'm not condoning going up to every vet and shouting "baby killer."

However, NONE of them are "heroes". None of them "Fought for our freedom." At best, they bolstered the wicked concept of a "standing army." At worst, they went overseas and killed people, or provided support for the same.

I'm not really accusing YOU of being a military worshipper. I'm accusing the people that are absolutely mortified that the memorials (Essentially altars to statism) are being shut down, yet don't mind in the slightest what the military actually does, or any of the other big government in this country, are worshipping the State.

AFPVet
10-13-2013, 10:50 PM
I don't bash veterans. Most of them have seen enough of the true horrors of war to know exactly why we need better foreign policy...at least those who will stand up and protest. If the SHTF, they may be the only thing between you and the militarized police. I don't consider that military worship. I think you might be surprised how many veterans are anti-war....maybe not necessarily old WWII vets but the younger ones. My uncle was a WWII vet and he was a POW held captive in the Phillipines. He never talked about the war after he came home. Not everyone is John McCain.

I may not be a 'combat vet', but I was a military police SRT team leader (USAF Security Forces)... and definitely anti-war, anti-big government, and pro liberty!

Carlybee
10-13-2013, 10:52 PM
I'm not saying we have to "Bash" them either. To clarify, my opinions on the military are similar to that of Laurence Vance, not the Westboro Baptist Church, if you know what I'm saying.

You are very right that veterans may well stand between us and the militized police, and I agree that that's not military worship. (If I accused you or Cajun of being military worshippers, I would seriously, seriously reconsider my definition.)

This isn't really so much about the veterans themselves for me as it is the people who blindly accept virtually any government tyranny, but slight the veterans and wow they're ticked. Those people are just state-worshippers and statist worshippers, bottom line. If someone is completely OK with the War In Iraq, Obamacare, the Fed, gun control, etc. but he's offended that the altars to the Golden Calf of the US military are shut down, yeah, he's a state-worshipper. I seriously doubt you'd disagree with that.

I am not saying that the people here (or at least the ones who apply) who are against government nonsense in general, including this, are state-worshippers. In fact, by that definition, I myself would be a state worshipper, since I find it absolutely stupid that they're shutting the memorials down. I just also find it stupid that people care so much about this. They care more about honoring those who went overseas to murder than they are the fact that the murder is happening and that our money is being stolen to pay for it.

I know I'm rambling here... I just have so many thoughts going through my head. The TLDR is that its not so much about bashing the veterans themselves, though I do have a problem with what they do overseas, as it is with the people who absolutely adore them and worship them, and America in general.

(Note: despite the use of religion, this is a political analogy, please take it as such)

I guess I kind of view the US Government as being like the Catholic Church, before the Reformation. Say that a group of people broke off from the corrupt Church and started a religion that taught that works alone save and that Jesus is not God. Now, as a Baptist, I completely disagree with Catholic doctrine, and do not view it as the same religion I believe in in any sense. I'm opposed to it. Yet, I wouldn't support this breakaway group either. They are actually FURTHER from what I believe in than the Catholic Church to begin with.

The US Government is completely out of control, and is filled with people that worship it. People are rejecting it because it doesn't allow them to worship it as much as they'd like. So, while I completely oppose the US government, this civil disobedience is going in the COMPLETE OPPOSITE DIRECTION that we need to go.

As for the comparisons to 1776, the Founders didn't worship the Redcoats or want to see tyranny from a different political party. I cannot imagine 1776 happening today, necessary though it may be. And I wouldn't support just any revolution if it wasn't based around anything close to my beliefs and values.


Back when a lot of these people went overseas to fight, it WAS considered an honorable thing to do..at least prior to Vietnam. And that was before our foreign policy became a big business run by War, Inc. I think those kids who signed up...and many of them were...my uncle enlisted at 17 and lied about his age, felt they were protecting their country. As for Iraq, Afghanistan, etc..I don't think they sign up thinking it's going to be what it turns out to be...not everyone is enlightened by libertarian philosophy. Now the ones who join Blackwater or whatever is another story. I do think people are becoming more enlightened, but I think there are going to always be people who make the military a career for whatever reason. I don't think I can go so far as to call them hired killers and I think what the military does to many of them is criminal, but I think the way they are treated when they return is even worse. For every gung-ho kill em all let God sort em out guy...there are probably numerous ones walking around in a daze, absolutely damaged and wishing they had never gone. Until we get through to people that war sucks and that our foreign policy is wack I will neither worship nor indict those who serve.

Christian Liberty
10-13-2013, 10:55 PM
I'm sympathetic to hating on military in it's current form but I think you're petty, ignorant, and myopic. People don't change deeply held beliefs overnight. These folks are standing up to current tyranny while praising past tyranny. You and I have never lived in a free society and the fact that we are alive today is proof that we used and took part in tyranny to our advantage. Cast those stones all that you want but I guarantee you take part in the same system on a daily basis when you rely on the food you eat and the electricity you use.

There's nothing inherently even wrong with "Using tyranny to your advantage." It depends on what you did.

See here:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2011/03/walter-e-block/may-a-libertarian-take-money-from-the-government/




You were conveniently not present here to condemn Ron Paul when he bragged about getting more donations from active duty soldiers. Learn how to pick your battles more wisely.

I've heard the comment, and I have no issue with it. They aren't the same situation.

Ron Paul was pointing out, correctly, that the soldiers themselves are not nearly as supportive of putting the rest of the world under occupation and waging war everywhere as the chickenhawks are. I post the "You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy" video all the time, despite objecting to the first five seconds of it. I agree that for Ron Paul to bash the military would likely have been stupid. He was running for Commander in Chief. And he ran on a platform of implementing almost completely 100% pure libertarianism eventually.

This is very different than what Ron Paul said. This is about Boobus exercizing "Civil disobedience" because government is insufficiently cooperative with worship of America. I seriously doubt it has anything to do with legitimate opposition to "Tyranny" for most of these people. Would someone who legitimately held a deep seated opposition to tyranny really want to fawn over the memorials anyways?

Different issues.

Christian Liberty
10-13-2013, 11:02 PM
Back when a lot of these people went overseas to fight, it WAS considered an honorable thing to do..at least prior to Vietnam. And that was before our foreign policy became a big business run by War, Inc. I think those kids who signed up...and many of them were...my uncle enlisted at 17 and lied about his age, felt they were protecting their country. As for Iraq, Afghanistan, etc..I don't think they sign up thinking it's going to be what it turns out to be...not everyone is enlightened by libertarian philosophy. Now the ones who join Blackwater or whatever is another story. I do think people are becoming more enlightened, but I think there are going to always be people who make the military a career for whatever reason. I don't think I can go so far as to call them hired killers and I think what the military does to many of them is criminal, but I think the way they are treated when they return is even worse. For every gung-ho kill em all let God sort em out guy...there are probably numerous ones walking around in a daze, absolutely damaged and wishing they had never gone. Until we get through to people that war sucks and that our foreign policy is wack I will neither worship nor indict those who serve.

OK:

1. The last war that America has been in that I think was in any sense justified was 1812. I don't defend either World War. So I don't think there's a person living today who TRULY fought in an "honorable" war. Ultimately, justifying what happened in WWII comes down to utilitarianism and preemption. America murdered a LOT of people in that war, far more than were killed in Iraq. Even if you view the German and Japanese Military as legitimate targets because Japan attacked us after we provokd them, the killing of civilians in Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagisaki, etc. is no better than murder.

2. Since when has the military been treated horribly when they've returned? For every person like me there are a thousand who will call them "heroes" and say they "fought for our freedom."

3. I'm not saying you have to condemn them, although I do, I don't believe ignorance or wicked philosophy is an excuse (I really don't expect any better out of unbelievers, but I find the fact that CHRISTIANS support this kind of stuff absolutely disgusting.) I think its possible not to condemn them while still thinking its ridiculous to pretend like people getting ticked off that their precious memorials are blocked off has anything to do with real liberty.

4. We're never going to "Get through to people." Most people are immoral and don't care. Most people have a wicked worldview. And if we did get through to them, and by "we" I mean the real liberty movement, not the phony "small government but law and order" types, would they join at all? Or do you mean something more like "Had the liberty philosophy presented to them?"

Christian Liberty
10-13-2013, 11:04 PM
I may not be a 'combat vet', but I was a military police SRT team leader (USAF Security Forces)... and definitely anti-war, anti-big government, and pro liberty!





Do you think that people who are ticked off because they aren't able to genuflect before their memorial of choice are actually pro-liberty just because they're disobeying this particular order?

enhanced_deficit
10-13-2013, 11:04 PM
389435391654514688

They should be careful out there and not bump into DC Police.. after what happened to Miriam Carey last week.

better-dead-than-fed
10-13-2013, 11:08 PM
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv0ur38YNI1r6m1z5o1_400.jpg

fr33
10-13-2013, 11:09 PM
I don't believe in going around and calling them that either.

But you are doing that on this forum. You are using the anonymity provided by the internet to escape the consequences you might suffer in doing it face to face. I do it too, just not as much.

Cutlerzzz
10-13-2013, 11:13 PM
Once again, the greatest generation shows us how it's done. One more time before the clock runs out on em.

Greatest at what?

Carlybee
10-13-2013, 11:14 PM
OK:

1. The last war that America has been in that I think was in any sense justified was 1812. I don't defend either World War. So I don't think there's a person living today who TRULY fought in an "honorable" war. Ultimately, justifying what happened in WWII comes down to utilitarianism and preemption. America murdered a LOT of people in that war, far more than were killed in Iraq. Even if you view the German and Japanese Military as legitimate targets because Japan attacked us after we provokd them, the killing of civilians in Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagisaki, etc. is no better than murder.

2. Since when has the military been treated horribly when they've returned? For every person like me there are a thousand who will call them "heroes" and say they "fought for our freedom." Vietnam vets were spit on when they returned. Have you seen how many end up homeless nowadays? The ones who don't commit suicide because the military pumped them full of anti-depressants? VA Hospitals treat them like cattle. They get screwed out of their benefits.

3. I'm not saying you have to condemn them, although I do, I don't believe ignorance or wicked philosophy is an excuse (I really don't expect any better out of unbelievers, but I find the fact that CHRISTIANS support this kind of stuff absolutely disgusting.) I think its possible not to condemn them while still thinking its ridiculous to pretend like people getting ticked off that their precious memorials are blocked off has anything to do with real liberty. For some of those people, the memorials represent memories and friends who lost their lives. Some people have to have something to hold onto and not everyone understands the true concepts of liberty.

4. We're never going to "Get through to people." Most people are immoral and don't care. Most people have a wicked worldview. And if we did get through to them, and by "we" I mean the real liberty movement, not the phony "small government but law and order" types, would they join at all? Or do you mean something more like "Had the liberty philosophy presented to them?" Does that mean we stop trying?

It's not always black and white

Christian Liberty
10-13-2013, 11:17 PM
But you are doing that on this forum. You are using the anonymity provided by the internet to escape the consequences you might suffer in doing it face to face. I do it too, just not as much.

Although I sometimes fail at it, there's some room for tact in real life.

We're smart enough here that we shouldn't have to beat around the bush. We know better.

I wouldn't walk up to a veteran and tell him he was a killer. First of all, I don't know if he is or not.

I would, however, make a general statement that those who go overseas to kill other people are murderers.

fr33
10-13-2013, 11:18 PM
There's nothing inherently even wrong with "Using tyranny to your advantage." It depends on what you did.

See here:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2011/03/walter-e-block/may-a-libertarian-take-money-from-the-government/
That's how we justify the things we do but it's really just an attempt to avoid looking ourselves in the mirror. As soon as the govt started subsidizing farmers, people across the nation were forced to abandoned their way of life and move to the murder-centers known as cities. You taking part in it ruined people's lives.

I didn't go to college but I'm indentured to pay for colleges so that people can follow Walter Block's advice and steal from me.

Act as high and mighty as you want, but you too are the boot of tyranny stomping on people no matter how you try to justify it.



I've heard the comment, and I have no issue with it. They aren't the same situation.

Ron Paul was pointing out, correctly, that the soldiers themselves are not nearly as supportive of putting the rest of the world under occupation and waging war everywhere as the chickenhawks are. I post the "You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy" video all the time, despite objecting to the first five seconds of it. I agree that for Ron Paul to bash the military would likely have been stupid. He was running for Commander in Chief. And he ran on a platform of implementing almost completely 100% pure libertarianism eventually.

This is very different than what Ron Paul said. This is about Boobus exercizing "Civil disobedience" because government is insufficiently cooperative with worship of America. I seriously doubt it has anything to do with legitimate opposition to "Tyranny" for most of these people. Would someone who legitimately held a deep seated opposition to tyranny really want to fawn over the memorials anyways?

Different issues.

You are more concerned with how people feel about nationalist monuments than how the people hired to fight curent wars are carrying out their orders. That was a pathetic attempt to make it different issues but that dog won't hunt.

Christian Liberty
10-13-2013, 11:22 PM
Does that mean we stop trying?

Absolutely not. I'm just saying that if you're waiting for some hypothetical future where everyone "gets it" to condemn those who fight for the regime, it ain't happening.


Vietnam vets were spit on when they returned. Have you seen how many end up homeless nowadays? The ones who don't commit suicide because the military pumped them full of anti-depressants? VA Hospitals treat them like cattle. They get screwed out of their benefits.

OK, I have a couple questions here.

First of all, how can they be "screwed out of their benefits?" Their benefits are paid for by compulsory taxation. So similar to those on social security, that's a mythical entitlement, not a real one (Unless you're a gradualist, as Ron Paul is, which would explain your comment. I take an absolutist/radical position as I'm sure you'd guess.)

Second of all, while I certainly don't condone seeing them get spit on or "Treated like Cattle" I feel like the Golden Rule sort of comes into play here. They shouldn't have gone and killed people overseas. I really don't see it as any better than if a mafia member did the exact same things to another "Family" for his.

AFPVet
10-13-2013, 11:26 PM
Do you think that people who are ticked off because they aren't able to genuflect before their memorial of choice are actually pro-liberty just because they're disobeying this particular order?

I think it's the totality of the circumstances. I don't believe they 'kneel' to these monuments, but they respect their fallen brothers. I do believe that, like a bear in hibernation, it takes a lot of wake it up, but once you do....

better-dead-than-fed
10-13-2013, 11:33 PM
Most soldiers probably haven't had occasion to analyze the mechanics of liberty like people on this forum. The status quo venerates people for merely enlisting and following orders, and that is hazardous, so I appreciate FreedomFanatic's effort to deter aggression. Soldiers in my experience have felt they were defending liberty. Even if they were mistaken, at least they recognized the value of liberty. If liberty required forceful resistance against militarized police and the unconstitutional regime that commanded them, the military itself would be a crucial ally to the liberty movement.

heavenlyboy34
10-13-2013, 11:34 PM
That's how we justify the things we do but it's really just an attempt to avoid looking ourselves in the mirror. As soon as the govt started subsidizing farmers, people across the nation were forced to abandoned their way of life and move to the murder-centers known as cities. You taking part in it ruined people's lives.

I didn't go to college but I'm indentured to pay for colleges so that people can follow Walter Block's advice and steal from me.

Act as high and mighty as you want, but you too are the boot of tyranny stomping on people no matter how you try to justify it.

Who indentured you to pay for colleges? Why do you think money you gave the government is yours? (as danke has pointed out the income tax-if you are referring to that-is a voluntary tax that most people don't have to pay) Love it or leave it, as the minarchists like to say. ;)

Christian Liberty
10-13-2013, 11:42 PM
I think it's the totality of the circumstances. I don't believe they 'kneel' to these monuments, but they respect their fallen brothers. I do believe that, like a bear in hibernation, it takes a lot of wake it up, but once you do....

I really hope you're right that they are actually waking up...

I don't expect someone who wakes up to instantly be a perfect ancap either. It took me three years, and I doubt my ideology is perfectly consistent even now. I don't expect them, for instance, to instantly realize the problem with pledging the US flag, or stuff like that. I just hope its actually real. I fear that if its something like this that ticked them off, they'll be content little drones again once we get a big government Republican into office.

Christian Liberty
10-13-2013, 11:46 PM
Most soldiers probably haven't had occasion to analyze the mechanics of liberty like people on this forum. The status quo venerates people for merely enlisting and following orders, and that is hazardous, so I appreciate FreedomFanatic's effort to deter aggression. Soldiers in my experience have felt they were defending liberty. Even if they were mistaken, at least they recognized the value of liberty. If liberty required forceful resistance against militarized police and the unconstitutional regime that commanded them, the military itself would be a crucial ally to the liberty movement.

I can't imagine people who are conditioned to follow orders to all the sudden oppose their government en masse. But if they did so, I would ABSOLUTELY support them.


Who indentured you to pay for colleges? Why do you think money you gave the government is yours? (as danke has pointed out the income tax-if you are referring to that-is a voluntary tax that most people don't have to pay) Love it or leave it, as the minarchists like to say. ;)

How is the income tax voluntary?

I honestly don't think I've ever heard a minarchist say "Love it or leave it." If they're worth their salt they don't "Love it" right now either.

Block's argument is correct. I take student aid, while at the same time opposing the concept. Taking money from the thieves is not stealing.

kcchiefs6465
10-13-2013, 11:48 PM
Who indentured you to pay for colleges? Why do you think money you gave the government is yours? (as danke has pointed out the income tax-if you are referring to that-is a voluntary tax that most people don't have to pay) Love it or leave it, as the minarchists like to say. ;)
Do you pay the income tax?

It's not as voluntary as some make it out to be.

For one, I am not a tax attorney. For two, I don't have years and thousands of dollars to tie up in litigation procedures. For three, when my poor ass is found guilty, as as sure as the sun rises I would be; the years don't sound appealing.

kcchiefs6465
10-13-2013, 11:52 PM
Block's argument is correct. I take student aid, while at the same time opposing the concept. Taking money from the thieves is not stealing.
That is some awful fine mental gymnastics you did there. Bravo. Here's the scenario, a robber robs a person on the street. You know or even watch the robbery occur. The robber says, have some money. (hell, the robber even hopes to gain your loyalty with it.. whether he does or not being besides the point) You taking the money you know full well isn't yours, that you know full well was taken from someone, is immoral. You can spice it up however you wish to make yourself feel better but honestly having honesty towards yourself is the best enlightenment.

The economics of being an indentured servant aside. (i.e. you will end up forever indebted)

heavenlyboy34
10-13-2013, 11:53 PM
Do you pay the income tax?

It's not as voluntary as some make it out to be.

For one, I am not a tax attorney. For two, I don't have years and thousands of dollars to tie up in litigation procedures. For three, when my poor ass is found guilty, as as sure as the sun rises I would be; the years don't sound appealing.
I don't make enough to be taxed. :( Fucking FED, regime that destroyed the economy, etc. :P

kcchiefs6465
10-13-2013, 11:57 PM
Who indentured you to pay for colleges? Why do you think money you gave the government is yours? (as danke has pointed out the income tax-if you are referring to that-is a voluntary tax that most people don't have to pay) Love it or leave it, as the minarchists like to say. ;)
Oh, and I forgot to mention in my earlier post; The income tax isn't going towards Pell Grants and Stafford Loans.

Even if one didn't pay for another's education directly with the income tax, indirectly through an inflationary deception they are. (and furthermore they have no say in the matter)

heavenlyboy34
10-13-2013, 11:58 PM
How is the income tax voluntary?
I don't understand all the details of it yet, but danke has provided interesting tidbits in various threads.


I honestly don't think I've ever heard a minarchist say "Love it or leave it." If they're worth their salt they don't "Love it" right now either.
I have. And even those who don't say it tacitly when they insist their constitution be forced on everyone, consenting or not.


Block's argument is correct. I take student aid, while at the same time opposing the concept. Taking money from the thieves is not stealing.
I agree. I'm surprised to find opposition to this around here because it's virtually the same as RP's argument. (hence voting for kickbacks for his district, etc)

fr33
10-13-2013, 11:59 PM
Who indentured you to pay for colleges? Why do you think money you gave the government is yours? (as danke has pointed out the income tax-if you are referring to that-is a voluntary tax that most people don't have to pay) Love it or leave it, as the minarchists like to say. ;)

Soon in November I'll be voting against a community college's bond for the 3rd time. It failed the last two attempts. It will probably pass this time. For owning property in this county, I'll be forced to pay for something that I do not own or use. To your question of "WHO?", the answer is: my neighbors.

http://www.cookecitizens.org/

Christian Liberty
10-14-2013, 12:00 AM
That is some awful fine mental gymnastics you did there. Bravo. Here's the scenario, a robber robs a person on the street. You know or even watch the robbery occur. The robber says, have some money. (hell, the robber even hopes to gain your loyalty with it.. whether he does or not being besides the point) You taking the money you know full well isn't yours, that you know full well was taken from someone, is immoral. You can spice it up however you wish to make yourself feel better but honestly having honesty towards yourself is the best enlightenment.

The economics of being an indentured servant aside. (i.e. you will end up forever indebted)

If I knew who it was taken from, and didn't return it, I'd agree that that's immoral, but the immoral action would be refusing to return the property, not my taking it from the thief in the first place. If I took it and kept it, I would be being immoral for keeping it, but not for taking it in the first place.

However, with government-stolen money, its impossible to know who "really" owns the money, only that its stolen by the legalized mafia. I see nothing wrong with plundering them. What would be better to do with it? Let them keep it? Yeah, no.

James Madison
10-14-2013, 12:01 AM
I'm not what you'd call 'pro-military', but consider this, FF. The Feds have repeatedly tagged returning soldiers and vets as the single largest source of potential domestic unrest. They're quick to bestow on you the riches of the Empire, but once you get back and are no longer useful for their ends, they'll discard you like a used plastic wrapper. Yes, I've met active and former military who are truly messed-up in the head, but most are normal people. Some joined for the right reasons. Some joined for the wrong reasons. Some joined out of patriotic duty. Some joined because they needed a change of scenery. Others joined because they needed a job.

Yes, there are loons like Cotton, McCain, and Graham, but you've also men like Jesse Ventura, Ron Paul, and Adam Kokesh. You've guys like Smedley Butler. Even George Washington would be considered 'anti-military' by mainstream Republicans today.

I think we would be wise to not burn our bridges at the moment.

heavenlyboy34
10-14-2013, 12:05 AM
Oh, and I forgot to mention in my earlier post; The income tax isn't going towards Pell Grants and Stafford Loans.

Even if one didn't pay for one's education directly with the income tax, indirectly through an inflationary deception they are. (and furthermore they have no say in the matter)
Aha! I see what you mean now. I agree. Have you paid any student loans lately? I've been paying mine down for a few years now. Though I make the check out to the dept. of education, the loan is "serviced" by Mohella (formerly Direct Loans). As I understand, servicers get a decent cut. I also cut monthly checks to Sallie Mae. I really wish this site had existed in 1999 so I could've avoided the whole mess. I've got my credentials hanging on my wall and no serious job in the field to show for it. :P The only thing I got out of it was a brief secretary job because my cert focused on computers. /ramble

heavenlyboy34
10-14-2013, 12:10 AM
Soon in November I'll be voting against a community college's bond for the 3rd time. It failed the last two attempts. It will probably pass this time. For owning property in this county, I'll be forced to pay for something that I do not own or use. To your question of "WHO?", the answer is: my neighbors.

http://www.cookecitizens.org/
oic. I've heard of this kind of thing happening all over teh country. Those measures seem to pass every time. :(

kcchiefs6465
10-14-2013, 12:14 AM
If I knew who it was taken from, and didn't return it, I'd agree that that's immoral, but the immoral action would be refusing to return the property, not my taking it from the thief in the first place. If I took it and kept it, I would be being immoral for keeping it, but not for taking it in the first place.

However, with government-stolen money, its impossible to know who "really" owns the money, only that its stolen by the legalized mafia. I see nothing wrong with plundering them. What would be better to do with it? Let them keep it? Yeah, no.
Setting an example would be better. Everyone and their programs is why nothing can be cut. Why the government expands by leaps and bounds annually. Set the example, speak out and hope others follow your lead.

And I'm only going to tell you this because no one told my credit ignorant ass it when I was young; you mess up your credit, and your life is fundamentally fucked. They give you the loans to pay for schooling (not education) which costs exorbitant amounts more than it should so that you are forever indebted to the system. There are ways to pay for a college education without selling your soul. (figuratively speaking) And this propaganda campaign that swept through the high schools that everyone needs to go to college, for jobs which there is not a high enough demand for, is a scam. It will probably be what collapses the system.

The railroad is hiring here. Starting off at $50,000+. A diploma is all you need. Some jobs there are paying $115,000+. If a student fresh out of high school had that money in his pocket he'd want for nothing. Tens years of work and he could pay for his own schooling. Or perhaps become wiser to the game and educate himself for free.

I don't want to sound like I'm preaching to you but I wish someone would have told my ass when I was younger. I thought I knew it all and got caught up. (and for what? Random obscure 'knowledge' I'll never need?) I am serious when I say this that looking back on it now, it is all a joke.

It is the moral hazard of the Fed fixing the interest rates. The enticement of the money then and there, no matter what ability you have to ever pay it off, the low interest rates, the ignorance many have on credit and our monetary [enslavement] system: It isn't worth it. I don't care if they're teaching Austrian Economics and a sensible foreign policy.

heavenlyboy34
10-14-2013, 12:22 AM
Setting an example would be better. Everyone and their programs is why nothing can be cut. Why the government expands by leaps and bounds annually. Set the example, speak out and hope others follow your lead.

And I'm only going to tell you this because no one told my credit ignorant ass it when I was young; you mess up your credit, and your life is fundamentally fucked. They give you the loans to pay for schooling (not education) which costs exorbitant amounts more than it should so that you are forever indebted to the system. There are ways to pay for a college education without selling your soul. (figuratively speaking) And this propaganda campaign that swept through the high schools that everyone needs to go to college, for jobs which there is not a high enough demand for, is a scam. It will probably be what collapses the system.

The railroad is hiring here. Starting off at $50,000+. A diploma is all you need. Some jobs there are paying $115,000+. If a student fresh out of high school had that money in his pocket he'd want for nothing. Tens years of work and he could pay for his own schooling. Or perhaps become wiser to the game and educate himself for free.

I don't want to sound like I'm preaching to you but I wish someone would have told my ass when I was younger. I thought I knew it all and got caught up. (and for what? Random obscure 'knowledge' I'll never need?) I am serious when I say this that looking back on it now, it is all a joke.

It is the moral hazard of the Fed fixing the interest rates. The enticement of the money then and there, no matter what ability you have to ever pay it off, the low interest rates, the ignorance many have on credit and our monetary [enslavement] system: It isn't worth it. I don't care if they're teaching Austrian Economics and a sensible foreign policy.
Wise words there^^ This is rather anecdotal, but I've noticed most of the jobs requiring degrees are "McJobs" that disappear in any economic pinch. Real skills like industrial arts (welding, metal work, etc) are almost always in demand and can be had without going into 6 figure debt.

Carlybee
10-14-2013, 12:49 AM
I may not be a 'combat vet', but I was a military police SRT team leader (USAF Security Forces)... and definitely anti-war, anti-big government, and pro liberty!

And I'm betting if the SHTF you will be on the right side of the Constitution.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
10-14-2013, 05:23 AM
If you want a good laugh, then read about this at Democratic Underground http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014619616

The feeble-minded are saying the vets and Cruz should have been tazed, beat down and arrested. Some of them actually believe no vets were involved at all. The protestors were all "agent provocateurs."

BWWWWWAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Natural Citizen
10-14-2013, 05:48 AM
If you want a good laugh, then read about this at Democratic Underground http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014619616

The feeble-minded are saying the vets and Cruz should have been tazed, beat down and arrested. Some of them actually believe no vets were involved at all. The protestors were all "agent provocateurs."

BWWWWWAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sheesh. That site gives me a headache just looking at the layout. How the heck do you even read that thing without constantly clicking on individual posts? Not worth the time imo.

cajuncocoa
10-14-2013, 05:58 AM
Back when a lot of these people went overseas to fight, it WAS considered an honorable thing to do..at least prior to Vietnam. And that was before our foreign policy became a big business run by War, Inc. I think those kids who signed up...and many of them were...my uncle enlisted at 17 and lied about his age, felt they were protecting their country. As for Iraq, Afghanistan, etc..I don't think they sign up thinking it's going to be what it turns out to be...not everyone is enlightened by libertarian philosophy. Now the ones who join Blackwater or whatever is another story. I do think people are becoming more enlightened, but I think there are going to always be people who make the military a career for whatever reason. I don't think I can go so far as to call them hired killers and I think what the military does to many of them is criminal, but I think the way they are treated when they return is even worse. For every gung-ho kill em all let God sort em out guy...there are probably numerous ones walking around in a daze, absolutely damaged and wishing they had never gone. Until we get through to people that war sucks and that our foreign policy is wack I will neither worship nor indict those who serve.
Excellent analysis

...and to FreedomFanatic, I would also like to remind you that up until and including Vietnam Vets, most of those people who served were drafted....they didn't volunteer.

cajuncocoa
10-14-2013, 06:00 AM
OK:

1. The last war that America has been in that I think was in any sense justified was 1812. I don't defend either World War. So I don't think there's a person living today who TRULY fought in an "honorable" war. Ultimately, justifying what happened in WWII comes down to utilitarianism and preemption. America murdered a LOT of people in that war, far more than were killed in Iraq. Even if you view the German and Japanese Military as legitimate targets because Japan attacked us after we provokd them, the killing of civilians in Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagisaki, etc. is no better than murder.

2. Since when has the military been treated horribly when they've returned? For every person like me there are a thousand who will call them "heroes" and say they "fought for our freedom."

3. I'm not saying you have to condemn them, although I do, I don't believe ignorance or wicked philosophy is an excuse (I really don't expect any better out of unbelievers, but I find the fact that CHRISTIANS support this kind of stuff absolutely disgusting.) I think its possible not to condemn them while still thinking its ridiculous to pretend like people getting ticked off that their precious memorials are blocked off has anything to do with real liberty.

4. We're never going to "Get through to people." Most people are immoral and don't care. Most people have a wicked worldview. And if we did get through to them, and by "we" I mean the real liberty movement, not the phony "small government but law and order" types, would they join at all? Or do you mean something more like "Had the liberty philosophy presented to them?"

Answer to your question #2: Vietnam Vets, upon returning home in the 1960s-70s.

tod evans
10-14-2013, 06:02 AM
Answer to your question #2: Vietnam Vets, upon returning home in the 1960s-70s.

How many different perspectives have you viewed the world from since you were 18?

cajuncocoa
10-14-2013, 06:02 AM
How many different perspectives have you viewed the world from since you were 18?

huh?

tod evans
10-14-2013, 06:04 AM
huh?

I try to think of that question when I read FF's commentary.

It helps me be somewhat temperate..:o

cajuncocoa
10-14-2013, 06:15 AM
I try to think of that question when I read FF's commentary.

It helps me be somewhat temperate..:oOh, OK, I see...

Answer to your question: many, I think. I started out as a high school graduate at 18 entering the work force; since then, decided to go to college later, got married, became a Mom, a caregiver for my aging parents until they passed away, got my twins through college, and now I'm enjoying the empty nest until any future grandchildren come along. Each of those different perspectives has given me a new insight along the way that has contributed to how I view politics and the world.

tod evans
10-14-2013, 06:21 AM
Oh, OK, I see...

Answer to your question: many, I think. I started out as a high school graduate at 18 entering the work force; since then, decided to go to college later, got married, became a Mom, a caregiver for my aging parents until they passed away, got my twins through college, and now I'm enjoying the empty nest until any future grandchildren come along. Each of those different perspectives has given me a new insight along the way that has contributed to how I view politics and the world.

Me too with the "many", lots of bumps and uphill grades........

When I read some of the idealistic opinions I try to put myself back a few/several decades and see if I can empathize.

Unfortunately for me at this point in my life my viewpoint is jaded and cynical...

That said.....

Rock on vets!

cajuncocoa
10-14-2013, 06:29 AM
Me too with the "many", lots of bumps and uphill grades........

When I read some of the idealistic opinions I try to put myself back a few/several decades and see if I can empathize.

Unfortunately for me at this point in my life my viewpoint is jaded and cynical...

That said.....

Rock on vets!
You're not alone.

And yes...rock on, vets!

Origanalist
10-14-2013, 06:35 AM
http://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/barrycades.jpg?w=496&h=532

buck000
10-14-2013, 06:57 AM
Not sure if this was posted or not, but wow:

h ttp://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/10/13/233334336/barriers-breached-at-world-war-ii-memorial-on-mall?1032

Check out the comments, too.

I'm no great fan of most of the Republicans in office, but yeesh, leftists can be so annoying, too. ;)

In other news, my local NPR station starts up their pledge drive next week, to continue receiving NPR"s excellent, balanced journalism.

GMAFB.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
10-14-2013, 08:41 AM
Sheesh. That site gives me a headache just looking at the layout. How the heck do you even read that thing without constantly clicking on individual posts? Not worth the time imo.

You can click VIEW ALL if you don't want to click on individual posts.

I actually just use it to make threads, mostly things about roadblock information. Not so much anymore though because hardly anybody there was interested.

One time I couldn't resist making a phony thread about how the term Obama Phone made it into the Dictionary of Politics. A lot of people actually believed it and were disappointed. It stayed on there awhile, until a member figured it was phony and got it removed.

mczerone
10-14-2013, 08:58 AM
I disagree. I believe it's a symbol and a of our Nation and the People not the government. It's a pledge to our country not the government.


The American flag represents the dignity, unity, and strength of the Americans. Its colours are symbolic, as are its thirteen horizontal stripes standing for the 13 original colonies, and its 50 stars representing the 50 states of the union. The red in the flag represents Valour; blue, Perseverance and Justice; and white, Purity and Innocence.

So it's explicitly symbolizing the unity of the 13 original colonies and the 50 current states, governments all, but it doesn't represent govt?

If you want a flag representing your country, wave one that is just a picture of the landmass(es).

But even then, why are there borders on that picture? The State drew the lines. I'm not a fan of worshiping "the country in spite of the govt" because it is the govt, the State, that defines what is and isn't "the country" to begin with.

I pledge to respect everyone, regardless of which plantation they live upon, as long as they respect others in the same manner.

A Son of Liberty
10-14-2013, 09:01 AM
I pledge to respect everyone, regardless of which plantation they live upon, as long as they respect others in the same manner.

You standard, sir:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/VforVoluntary_normal.svg/501px-VforVoluntary_normal.svg.png

liberalnurse
10-14-2013, 09:18 AM
So it's explicitly symbolizing the unity of the 13 original colonies and the 50 current states, governments all, but it doesn't represent govt?

If you want a flag representing your country, wave one that is just a picture of the landmass(es).

But even then, why are there borders on that picture? The State drew the lines. I'm not a fan of worshiping "the country in spite of the govt" because it is the govt, the State, that defines what is and isn't "the country" to begin with.

I pledge to respect everyone, regardless of which plantation they live upon, as long as they respect others in the same manner.

The first line.
The American flag represents the dignity, unity, and strength of the Americans.

I'm white, I'm middle class, middle aged and an American. Nor am I an Anarchist. No apologies. I respect all, as well, if they earn it. I respect this county, our founders and their vision of what this nation should be. If you don't want to say the pledge or fly a flag from your porch, that's ok to. I respect that. But to imply that one who flies a flag or says the pledge is "worshiping" the county is just foolish. I believe it means different things to different people.

AuH20
10-14-2013, 09:26 AM
The media is losing their mind about the guy with the confederate flag, instead of focusing on the dimwit who decided to close an open air veterans memorial that was largely funded with private donations!!!

http://www.mediaite.com/online/video-protesters-in-confrontation-with-black-man-right-in-front-of-confederate-flag/#0

tod evans
10-14-2013, 09:45 AM
The media is losing their mind about the guy with the confederate flag, instead of focusing on the dimwit who decided to close an open air veterans memorial that was largely funded with private donations!!!


Maybe they'll be so kind as to inform the public just which flags are acceptable...:rolleyes:

AuH20
10-14-2013, 09:50 AM
http://westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/img-20131013-00078.jpg

NorthCarolinaLiberty
10-14-2013, 10:11 AM
I pledge allegiance to the flag?

The dictionary definition of allegiance is the loyalty owed by a citizen to his government or country. All I can muster for something like that is a big laugh. I don't owe anything to an abstract entity or 315 million other people. I have allegiance to my family and that's it. Take care of your own.

AuH20
10-14-2013, 10:22 AM
The revolution definitely will not be televised. This is going to be fun going forward.

Christian Liberty
10-14-2013, 10:31 AM
Setting an example would be better. Everyone and their programs is why nothing can be cut. Why the government expands by leaps and bounds annually. Set the example, speak out and hope others follow your lead.

And I'm only going to tell you this because no one told my credit ignorant ass it when I was young; you mess up your credit, and your life is fundamentally fucked. They give you the loans to pay for schooling (not education) which costs exorbitant amounts more than it should so that you are forever indebted to the system. There are ways to pay for a college education without selling your soul. (figuratively speaking) And this propaganda campaign that swept through the high schools that everyone needs to go to college, for jobs which there is not a high enough demand for, is a scam. It will probably be what collapses the system.

The railroad is hiring here. Starting off at $50,000+. A diploma is all you need. Some jobs there are paying $115,000+. If a student fresh out of high school had that money in his pocket he'd want for nothing. Tens years of work and he could pay for his own schooling. Or perhaps become wiser to the game and educate himself for free.

I don't want to sound like I'm preaching to you but I wish someone would have told my ass when I was younger. I thought I knew it all and got caught up. (and for what? Random obscure 'knowledge' I'll never need?) I am serious when I say this that looking back on it now, it is all a joke.

It is the moral hazard of the Fed fixing the interest rates. The enticement of the money then and there, no matter what ability you have to ever pay it off, the low interest rates, the ignorance many have on credit and our monetary [enslavement] system: It isn't worth it. I don't care if they're teaching Austrian Economics and a sensible foreign policy.

Pretty much my entire education is being paid for by financial aid at the moment, for better or worse.


And I'm betting if the SHTF you will be on the right side of the Constitution.

I believe he would. I'm curious how many of the people who are ticked off over the memorials would though.

Excellent analysis

...and to FreedomFanatic, I would also like to remind you that up until and including Vietnam Vets, most of those people who served were drafted....they didn't volunteer.

So because someone legally required you to murder it becomes more acceptable?

Christian Liberty
10-14-2013, 10:40 AM
Regarding the draft issue:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/02/laurence-m-vance/murder-is-still-murder/

shane77m
10-14-2013, 10:44 AM
If you want a good laugh, then read about this at Democratic Underground http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014619616

The feeble-minded are saying the vets and Cruz should have been tazed, beat down and arrested. Some of them actually believe no vets were involved at all. The protestors were all "agent provocateurs."

BWWWWWAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think the country would be better off if we would just go ahead and split up and be done with it. I wouldn't piss on those loons over at DU and those like them if they were on fire.

AuH20
10-14-2013, 10:45 AM
Regarding the draft issue:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/02/laurence-m-vance/murder-is-still-murder/

Many of the men who engaged in combat were fighting for their own lives as well their fellow mates. For example, you're patrolling in the la Drang valley and run into a VC brigade. Do you drop your weapon and cower because you don't want to be inaccurately labeled by Laurence Vance as a murderer? Horseshit.

jbauer
10-14-2013, 10:46 AM
Not to take anything away from WW2 Veterans, but there weren't many there at all. It was mostly Vietnam vets, Iraq and Afghanistan veterans.

Gee, think that might be because the WW2 vets are in their late 80s or older?

Ender
10-14-2013, 10:47 AM
How many different perspectives have you viewed the world from since you were 18?


My grandpa always said he didn't know nuttin' until he was 60, and then nobody would listen to him. ;)

jmdrake
10-14-2013, 10:48 AM
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2013/10/20131013_snipers_0.jpg

Snipers on top of the White House.

Gotta have someone to shoot unarmed single black mothers with one year old babies in the back of the car.

Dr.3D
10-14-2013, 10:51 AM
Gee, think that might be because the WW2 vets are in their late 80s or older?
Yep, many of them have already passed away. The Vietnam vets are no spring chickens either.

cajuncocoa
10-14-2013, 10:52 AM
So because someone legally required you to murder it becomes more acceptable?No, not at all. But I don't have an issue with self-defense, and I truly believe that (up until Vietnam) veterans really believed they were fighting for our freedoms and defending our country. There are a lot of conspiracy theories about the attack on Pearl Harbor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor) that led to our involvement in WWII, but as the Internet didn't exist in 1941, those people probably were not aware of the evidence that suggests FDR allowed that attack to happen...and they were worried that Japanese forces might go on to California next and then from there, who knows? They really believed they were defending the U.S. And, if what they believe is true, I have no problem with defense operations under those circumstances. It IS regrettable, but necessary.

Up until Vietnam, I tend to think most Americans viewed our military involvements that way.

Do you have any Vietnam or WWII vets in your family, FF? I believe they would be better qualified to answer that question than I am. I suggest that maybe you should have a discussion about this with them.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
10-14-2013, 10:53 AM
So because someone legally required you to murder it becomes more acceptable?

Yep, you got it right. Anybody who thinks he can require killing somebody with whom I have no personal beef has another thing coming. Anybody who thinks they can do that because they passed some kind of "law" with sanctions also becomes fair game for his own game.

dinosaur
10-14-2013, 10:53 AM
God Bless them. Yeah, they are the only ones who can get away with a stunt like this and we need them.

tod evans
10-14-2013, 10:55 AM
My grandpa always said he didn't know nuttin' until he was 60, and then nobody would listen to him. ;)

Well thank God!

Sounds like the trend of getting more stupid every year since passing 30 changes once ya' pass 60, I've got a few more years but now I've got something to look forward to..

cajuncocoa
10-14-2013, 10:56 AM
Gee, think that might be because the WW2 vets are in their late 80s or older?

Yeah, probably older. My Dad had just turned 18 a couple of months before the attack on Pearl Harbor; he immediately went out and enlisted in the Navy. Last Thursday would have been my Dad's 90th birthday.

A Son of Liberty
10-14-2013, 11:04 AM
Many of the men who engaged in combat were fighting for their own lives as well their fellow mates. For example, you're patrolling in the la Drang valley and run into a VC brigade. Do you drop your weapon and cower because you don't want to be inaccurately labeled by Laurence Vance as a murderer? Horseshit.

You never allow yourself to be in that position in the first place.

Why the FUCK would an American find himself walking a patrol in Ia Drang in 1965 to begin with!? What threat to himself and his family was he going to find there, without putting himself or his family there in the first place?

You don't get to start playing Monopoly from fucking Free Parking, Goldwater. You start from fucking Start.

Horseshit.

Christian Liberty
10-14-2013, 11:09 AM
No, not at all. But I don't have an issue with self-defense, and I truly believe that (up until Vietnam) veterans really believed they were fighting for our freedoms and defending our country. There are a lot of conspiracy theories about the attack on Pearl Harbor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor) that led to our involvement in WWII, but as the Internet didn't exist in 1941, those people probably were not aware of the evidence that suggests FDR allowed that attack to happen...and they were worried that Japanese forces might go on to California next and then from there, who knows? They really believed they were defending the U.S. And, if what they believe is true, I have no problem with defense operations under those circumstances. It IS regrettable, but necessary.

Up until Vietnam, I tend to think most Americans viewed our military involvements that way.

Do you have any Vietnam or WWII vets in your family, FF? I believe they would be better qualified to answer that question than I am. I suggest that maybe you should have a discussion about this with them.

I don't know if anyone in my family fought in Vietnam. I honestly don't want to know. I know one of my grandparents was in between Korea and Vietnam, but I don't know for sure of any who fought in Vietnam or WWII.




You never allow yourself to be in that position in the first place.

Why the FUCK would an American find himself walking a patrol in Ia Drang in 1965 to begin with!? What threat to himself and his family was he going to find there, without putting himself or his family there in the first place?

You don't get to start playing Monopoly from fucking Free Parking, Goldwater. You start from fucking Start.

Horseshit.

thumbs up.

Let me change his post a little to demonstrate the point:


Many of the men who engaged in combat were fighting for their own lives as well their fellow bank robbers. For example, you're robbing a bank and run into a group of armed security guards. Do you drop your weapon and cower because you don't want to be inaccurately labeled by Laurence Vance as a murderer? Horseshit.



As I said, I'm not sure there's much of a real committment to liberty and its implications even here.

A Son of Liberty
10-14-2013, 11:13 AM
As I said, I'm not sure there's much of a real committment to liberty and its implications even here.

Sacred Cows.

This is what you get when you mix liberty with party politics.

tod evans
10-14-2013, 11:34 AM
As I said, I'm not sure there's much of a real committment to liberty and its implications even here.


Sacred Cows.

This is what you get when you mix liberty with party politics.


Whether you agree with veterans or not, it was veterans who tore down those damn "barrycades".

Christian Liberty
10-14-2013, 11:38 AM
Sacred Cows.

This is what you get when you mix liberty with party politics.

I honestly expect some of this from politicians like Rand Paul, Amash, etc.

I didn't expect it from the people here.

The more I read the more I become convinced that Biblical Christianity, including its political implications (voluntarism in its purest form, or at least something very, very close) is the only thing that can do anything for this country. I'm beginning to see the futility of any kind of political debate with people that don't recognize the auhtority of the Bible. Whether they admit it or not, they are ultimately relativists, and have no choice but to be such.


Whether you agree with veterans or not, it was veterans who tore down those damn "barrycades".

Not that I support putting those up, but again, the only reason for this civil disobedience is based around statism. There's nothing libertarian about it.

kcchiefs6465
10-14-2013, 11:40 AM
As I said, I'm not sure there's much of a real committment to liberty and its implications even here.
This coming from the one who undoubtedly receives and wastes tens of thousands of taxpayer dollars a year. The responsibility of a plutocratic, global currency, of which you'll have even less control of than you do the Fed will rest at your feet (and countless others) and you don't even see the writing on the wall. A small chance in hell that when the dollar finally collapses (which is apparently what you're working for, or your justification for enjoying the plunder afforded to you) we will revert to a gold standard and free markets. No, there will be a cry to further socialize everything. It's odd to me that you criticize Ted Cruz and the rest as un-pure or that you cast stones so quickly yet at the same time are subsidized by the government. A little hypocritical, wouldn't you say, for you to post what you did?

I think I've heard it all now.

A Son of Liberty
10-14-2013, 11:53 AM
Whether you agree with veterans or not, it was veterans who tore down those damn "barrycades".

Which veterans? THESE (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?430409-Veterans-worried-about-benefits-to-protest-shutdown) veterans?

Those "damn 'barrycades'" are nothing more than cattle gates; and these cows are just pissed off that they can't graze in one particular field.

Don't get me wrong - I'm glad they're riled up. But I'm willing to bet that a solid majority of these folks wouldn't be wranglin' barricades had they been erected by Mitt Romney, around the MLK and FDR memorials.

Red State! Blue State! Just don't you dare say No State!


I honestly expect some of this from politicians like Rand Paul, Amash, etc.

I didn't expect it from the people here.

The more I read the more I become convinced that Biblical Christianity, including its political implications (voluntarism in its purest form, or at least something very, very close) is the only thing that can do anything for this country. I'm beginning to see the futility of any kind of political debate with people that don't recognize the auhtority of the Bible. Whether they admit it or not, they are ultimately relativists, and have no choice but to be such.

My guiding, foundational principles are rooted in my faith in God, but I do not believe that it is impossible to be on solid ground without faith.


Not that I support putting those up, but again, the only reason for this civil disobedience is based around statism. There's nothing libertarian about it.

Agreed. :thumbs:

shane77m
10-14-2013, 11:54 AM
http://youtu.be/AFimIl7t3vc

A piece of bacon hits a protestor in the back of the head. At the :38 mark.

tod evans
10-14-2013, 12:04 PM
Don't get me wrong - I'm glad they're riled up.

Me too!

Only thing is I don't question the "purity" of their motivation.

Pissed off at government and acting on it gets one response from government.

I'd like to see several other sub-sets of society get pissed enough to do something, even if it's only tearing down "cattle gates"

Christian Liberty
10-14-2013, 12:04 PM
My guiding, foundational principles are rooted in my faith in God, but I do not believe that it is impossible to be on solid ground without faith.



You can stumble on the right conclusions on certain issues, as many of our atheist anarcho-capitalist friends have done (Rothbard, Block, etc.) but let's say an atheist doesn't. How do you convince them they are wrong? In fact, if there wasn't a God, would statism even be wrong? Why? After all, its just formulated by natural chemical processes, in that case. Darwinism leaves no valid arguments for anything being right or wrong.

Most times when you ask an atheist where his morals come from, its either his own brain, or majority opinion. Neither of which actually mean anything.

I was told by an atheist student in my world politcs class recently taht "There are a lot of good reasons for feeling attached to your State. Your State takes care of you, defends you, provides for you, etc." I wanted to puke, I still do a week later, but I also realize that this kind of state-worship is logically where atheism leads. God protects me, defends me, and provides for me, not the wicked State that is opposed to Him.

Feeding the Abscess
10-14-2013, 12:20 PM
No, not at all. But I don't have an issue with self-defense, and I truly believe that (up until Vietnam) veterans really believed they were fighting for our freedoms and defending our country. There are a lot of conspiracy theories about the attack on Pearl Harbor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor) that led to our involvement in WWII, but as the Internet didn't exist in 1941, those people probably were not aware of the evidence that suggests FDR allowed that attack to happen...and they were worried that Japanese forces might go on to California next and then from there, who knows? They really believed they were defending the U.S. And, if what they believe is true, I have no problem with defense operations under those circumstances. It IS regrettable, but necessary.

Up until Vietnam, I tend to think most Americans viewed our military involvements that way.

Do you have any Vietnam or WWII vets in your family, FF? I believe they would be better qualified to answer that question than I am. I suggest that maybe you should have a discussion about this with them.

Korea wasn't a defensive action. Neither was our incursion in the Philippines. There's more, but you get the point.

Cabal
10-14-2013, 12:20 PM
Me too!

Only thing is I don't question the "purity" of their motivation.

Pissed off at government and acting on it gets one response from government.

I'd like to see several other sub-sets of society get pissed enough to do something, even if it's only tearing down "cattle gates"

Yeah, it's kinda like that cliche where some guy thinks a hot girl is smiling and waving at him, only to eventually realize she's actually smiling and waving at the guy behind him.

Joeschmo
10-14-2013, 12:21 PM
Which veterans? THESE (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?430409-Veterans-worried-about-benefits-to-protest-shutdown) veterans?

Those "damn 'barrycades'" are nothing more than cattle gates; and these cows are just pissed off that they can't graze in one particular field.

Don't get me wrong - I'm glad they're riled up. But I'm willing to bet that a solid majority of these folks wouldn't be wranglin' barricades had they been erected by Mitt Romney, around the MLK and FDR memorials.

Red State! Blue State! Just don't you dare say No State!



My guiding, foundational principles are rooted in my faith in God, but I do not believe that it is impossible to be on solid ground without faith.



Agreed. :thumbs:

As someone who was there, i can tell you outright this was not a libertarian movement. It was definitely had Tea Party elements too it, but you could tell from some of the vets speaking out, their was a liberty element to it as well. Either way, it didn't matter. This was about veterans opening up the Korean, Vietnam and WW2 memorials. I can agree with the rest of what you said though.

A Son of Liberty
10-14-2013, 12:22 PM
You can stumble on the right conclusions on certain issues, as many of our atheist anarcho-capitalist friends have done (Rothbard, Block, etc.) but let's say an atheist doesn't. How do you convince them they are wrong? In fact, if there wasn't a God, would statism even be wrong? Why? After all, its just formulated by natural chemical processes, in that case.

I don't have to convince them they're wrong. Just like I don't have to convince statists that they're wrong. I have no interest in being in a perpetual state of war with everyone around me.

Furthermore, I believe it is entirely possible to deduce logically the "right" conclusions, with regard to human existence, absent belief in God. In fact, that is something that reinforces my belief in God. Thus, it remains entirely consistent to understand that statism is wrong, even without the existence of God.


Darwinism leaves no valid arguments for anything being right or wrong.

Most times when you ask an atheist where his morals come from, its either his own brain, or majority opinion. Neither of which actually mean anything.

I was told by an atheist student in my world politcs class recently taht "There are a lot of good reasons for feeling attached to your State. Your State takes care of you, defends you, provides for you, etc." I wanted to puke, I still do a week later, but I also realize that this kind of state-worship is logically where atheism leads. God protects me, defends me, and provides for me, not the wicked State that is opposed to Him.

It's actually more difficult to argue for statelessness from a theist position than from an atheist position, vis-a-vis a non-believer. Self-ownership is self-evident. You and I happily agree that self-ownership is a gift from God; but a non-believer can logically deduce this themselves (tho', in my opinion, it is because God gave him self-ownership :) ).

A Son of Liberty
10-14-2013, 12:25 PM
As someone who was there, i can tell you outright this was not a libertarian movement. It was definitely had Tea Party elements too it, but you could tell from some of the vets speaking out, their was a liberty element to it as well. Either way, it didn't matter. This was about veterans opening up the Korean, Vietnam and WW2 memorials. I can agree with the rest of what you said though.

Honestly, it's not my intention to offend anyone. I'm just calling it like I see it; and I'd be happy to revise my opinion in light of further evidence. :)

I'm heartily interested in a true uprising against this state. Operative word being, "true", of course. :thumbs:

ETA: My response to a thread about the ACA (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?430250-My-general-perspective-on-the-quot-Affordable-Care-quot-Act&p=5267702&viewfull=1#post5267702), in the Individual Liberty sub-forum; as an explanation of my cynicism:


Of course "we" will comply.

The whole foundation has been wiped out. So few people understand basic, foundational principles that there is nothing left to work from.

In order to make logical, rational decisions, one must be rooted in logical, self-evident principles. Take the (likely apocryphal) story of "Horatio Bunce (http://archive.lewrockwell.com/orig4/ellis1.html)". Where in a thousand men today could you find one like that, who understood such basic principle? Very few, and far between. The foundation has been swept away, and now people are relatively easily led about by pied pipers in media. Red State! Blue State! Just don't you dare so No State! It is as though the law of gravity has been repealed. Now, rather than having both feet planted firmly on the ground, it is as though most men just float freely in the atmosphere, untethered to anything solid and thus very easily pushed in any particular direction.

Primarily, I blame state-directed education and easy money. "We" will comply; and those of us who do not will be dealt with fairly harshly by those who do.

Cabal
10-14-2013, 12:25 PM
//

Christian Liberty
10-14-2013, 12:27 PM
I don't have to convince them they're wrong. Just like I don't have to convince statists that they're wrong. I have no interest in being in a perpetual state of war with everyone around me.

Sometimes I feel stuck there:p


Furthermore, I believe it is entirely possible to deduce logically the "right" conclusions, with regard to human existence, absent belief in God. In fact, that is something that reinforces my belief in God. Thus, it remains entirely consistent to understand that statism is wrong, even without the existence of God.

I think this is something Sola has addressed, and I still haven't seen a good answer to the Is/Ought fallacy.




It's actually more difficult to argue for statelessness from a theist position than from an atheist position, vis-a-vis a non-believer. Self-ownership is self-evident. You and I happily agree that self-ownership is a gift from God; but a non-believer can logically deduce this themselves (tho', in my opinion, it is because God gave him self-ownership :) ).

I presume that by "Self-Ownership" we mean "As relating to other people" not "As relating to God." God obviously has ownership rights over every person he has created.

A non-believer might be able to deduce it for themselves that allowing people to own themselves is a good idea, but he has no absolute morality to which he can appeal that tells him this is right.

Many "believers" are statists and this drives me nuts to no end, but the Book they claim to believe in teaches Voluntarism, so ultimately if they are statists they are objectively wrong. And it is at least possible to try to convince them of this.

better-dead-than-fed
10-14-2013, 12:28 PM
So because someone legally required you to murder it becomes more acceptable?

Isn't that the very argument you use to justify your own choice to pay taxes which fund "murder"? Aren't you "blaming the victims for submitting"?


blaming the victims for submitting is evil.

Aren't people who submit to legal requirements just being "pragmatic", and didn't you argue that "pragmatism" justifies the choice to support "murder"?


Jesus... did pay a tax that he clearly didn't owe for pragmatic reasons.

Joeschmo
10-14-2013, 12:31 PM
Honestly, it's not my intention to offend anyone. I'm just calling it like I see it; and I'd be happy to revise my opinion in light of further evidence. :)

I'm heartily interested in a true uprising against this state. Operative word being, "true", of course. :thumbs:

I'm not offended at all. In this particular case i think that the main concern was the opening up of memorials for veterans by veterans. However, I was definitely in the minority there who were looking for that "true" uprising that your implying. A lot of these people voted for Romney, believing we would be in a better position. One lady was surprised i didn't like Romney and wanted Ron Paul.

Christian Liberty
10-14-2013, 12:39 PM
Korea wasn't a defensive action. Neither was our incursion in the Philippines. There's more, but you get the point.


I agree, but I think she does too. She's trying to see it from their perspective, not agreeing.

Isn't that the very argument you use to justify your own choice to pay taxes which fund murder? Aren't you "blaming the victims for submitting"?


There's a massive difference between not resisting theft at gunpoint for whatever reason, and actually going out and killing people who aren't a threat to you in any way.



Aren't people who submit to legal requirements just being "pragmatic", and didn't you argue that "pragmatism" justifies the choice to support murder?

There's a difference between a certain degree of pragmatism and utilitarianism.

better-dead-than-fed
10-14-2013, 12:51 PM
There's a massive difference between not resisting theft at gunpoint for whatever reason, and actually [while being kidnapped and compelled by the government at gunpoint] going out and killing people who aren't a threat to you in any way.

That difference is dictated by some "absolute morality" (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?430344-Vets-have-broken-down-barricades-at-Lincoln-Memorial-and-are-carrying-them-to-the-White-House&p=5268038&viewfull=1#post5268038) ("the authority of the Bible" (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?430344-Vets-have-broken-down-barricades-at-Lincoln-Memorial-and-are-carrying-them-to-the-White-House&p=5267945&viewfull=1#post5267945)), or it's just dictated by your "own brain, or majority opinion (neither of which actually mean anything)" (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?430344-Vets-have-broken-down-barricades-at-Lincoln-Memorial-and-are-carrying-them-to-the-White-House&p=5267992&viewfull=1#post5267992)?


There's a difference between a certain degree of pragmatism and utilitarianism.

That difference is dictated by some "absolute morality" (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?430344-Vets-have-broken-down-barricades-at-Lincoln-Memorial-and-are-carrying-them-to-the-White-House&p=5268038&viewfull=1#post5268038) ("the authority of the Bible" (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?430344-Vets-have-broken-down-barricades-at-Lincoln-Memorial-and-are-carrying-them-to-the-White-House&p=5267945&viewfull=1#post5267945)), or it's just dictated by your "own brain, or majority opinion (neither of which actually mean anything)" (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?430344-Vets-have-broken-down-barricades-at-Lincoln-Memorial-and-are-carrying-them-to-the-White-House&p=5267992&viewfull=1#post5267992)?

jmdrake
10-14-2013, 12:52 PM
What the hell is with the thread de-rail? It's irrelevant whether or not vets are "heros." What's more important is that more and more people are seeing fascism for what it really is.

phill4paul
10-14-2013, 12:54 PM
What the hell is with the thread de-rail? It's irrelevant whether or not vets are "heros." What's more important is that more and more people are seeing fascism for what it really is.

R U serious? Lol. It's RPF.

AuH20
10-14-2013, 12:56 PM
What the hell is with the thread de-rail? It's irrelevant whether or not vets are "heros." What's more important is that more and more people are seeing fascism for what it really is.

I don't think they are heroes. I don't stand or applaud when vets are announced at sporting events I attend. But the other extreme, casting them as remorseless, calculated murderers is downright offensive. Walk in their shoes and then you can cast judgement. Ever been shot at? Ever been threatened with a courtmartial? Probably not.

Dr.3D
10-14-2013, 01:09 PM
Kids don't understand the concept of having a draft. All the time you are in high school, you are thinking about what happens when you graduate. You know when you get your diploma, there is a very good chance you will then be drafted and sent to the meat grinder. It's not a pleasant thought at all. It sort of takes all of the fun out of your high school days.

Those who haven't been down that road should think before they speak of calling those folks murderers. You get drafted, taken at gunpoint to a foreign country, dropped off with a weapon and told to survive by following orders. If you don't follow the orders, you will be subjected to a court martial. If you don't defend yourself in combat, you will be the one who was "murdered." Doesn't leave much choice does it?

Christian Liberty
10-14-2013, 01:15 PM
Kids don't understand the concept of having a draft. All the time you are in high school, you are thinking about what happens when you graduate. You know when you get your diploma, there is a very good chance you will then be drafted and sent to the meat grinder. It's not a pleasant thought at all. It sort of takes all of the fun out of your high school days.

Those who haven't been down that road should think before they speak of calling those folks murderers. You get drafted, taken at gunpoint to a foreign country, dropped off with a weapon and told to survive by following orders. If you don't follow the orders, you will be subjected to a court martial. If you don't defend yourself in combat, you will be the one who was "murdered." Doesn't leave much choice does it?

I wouldn't go. I'd either leave the country, go to prison, or stand my ground and force them to kill me. I wouldn't go murder people overseas just because the governing authority told me too. That's WRONG.


What the hell is with the thread de-rail? It's irrelevant whether or not vets are "heros." What's more important is that more and more people are seeing fascism for what it really is.

They aren't objecting to fascism. This isn't a liberty-minded protest at all.

jmdrake
10-14-2013, 01:16 PM
They aren't objecting to fascism. This isn't a liberty-minded protest at all.

Yeah. Because now you can read everyone's mind. :rolleyes:

Cabal
10-14-2013, 01:19 PM
I don't think they are heroes. I don't stand or applaud when vets are announced at sporting events I attend. But the other extreme, casting them as remorseless, calculated murderers is downright offensive. Walk in their shoes and then you can cast judgement. Ever been shot at? Ever been threatened with a courtmartial? Probably not.

While I agree that they are neither necessarily heroes, nor are they necessarily embodiments of evil--they are individuals, and some of them may very well be heroes, or evil doers, regardless of their military service--I don't think walking in one's shoes is necessary to cast judgment. I don't need to murder someone to know that murder is wrong, or to call murderers murderers. But, just to reiterate, I don't find guilt by association valid in this case.

As an aside, Ron Paul served in the military.

Ironically--ironic because I am agnostic--I generally have a mindset of 'forgive them, for they know not what they do' (Luke 23:34 IIRC) when it comes to the State's employees--be they military, police, or what have you--until they individually take action that is morally reprehensible. It is their individual actions that determine what wrong they have done, not simply their military or police service. Unfortunately, for military and police, if not others, they tend to corner themselves in a no-win situation where they have to support violence, or initiate violence themselves against otherwise innocent people, or else they too will become victims. While there has been conscription in the past, I suspect it is true for most today that no one made them join the police, or military--so in that sense, there was a choice. But again, where simply joining is concerned, 'forgive them, for they know not what they do.'

The vast majority of people believe they are serving good, and fighting evil. The vast majoirty of people join the police force, or the military because they believe it is honorable, and in the service of virtue.

In any case, playing these kinds of blame games for nothing more than association is ultimately a distraction. The true enemy is the State, and it's best not to lose sight of that.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/5b06731ec24b314eaa94693b414262fd/tumblr_mi4szaZKRP1s3zxl7o1_500.jpg

Christian Liberty
10-14-2013, 01:22 PM
As an aside, Ron Paul served in the military.

Yes, and?

Ron Paul is a far better man than I'll ever be, but I don't blindly get me ideas from him.

Dr.3D
10-14-2013, 01:22 PM
I wouldn't go. I'd either leave the country, go to prison, or stand my ground and force them to kill me. I wouldn't go murder people overseas just because the governing authority told me too. That's WRONG.

Big words. I seriously hope you are never put in a position to actually have to live them.

cajuncocoa
10-14-2013, 01:23 PM
Korea wasn't a defensive action. Neither was our incursion in the Philippines. There's more, but you get the point.
Agreed, but until anti war activists started to make serious noise during Vietnam, I don't think most Americans realized this.

phill4paul
10-14-2013, 01:23 PM
I wouldn't go. I'd either leave the country, go to prison, or stand my ground and force them to kill me. I wouldn't go murder people overseas just because the governing authority told me too. That's WRONG.

Some did not go. Some left. You need to understand that times were...different...then. The opinions that you have formed at such a young age might not have come to you at that place and time. Remember, within just the last year your shift to anarcho-capitalism. Mostly based, I would glean, on your interaction over the internet. This information would not have been available then. The prevailing attitudes would not have been the same. Don't find too much fault in others that may not have had the same information you have had that have helped you sculpt your beliefs.