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Origanalist
10-11-2013, 06:08 PM
In the last decade of the 20th century, as the Soviet Empire disintegrated so, too, did that prison house of nations, the USSR.

Out of the decomposing carcass came Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Moldova, all in Europe; Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan in the Caucasus; and Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan in Central Asia.

Transnistria then broke free of Moldova, and Abkhazia and South Ossetia fought free of Georgia.

Yugoslavia dissolved far more violently into the nations of Serbia, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Macedonia and Kosovo.

The Slovaks seceded from Czechoslovakia. Yet a Europe that plunged straight to war after the last breakup of Czechoslovakia in 1938 and 1939 this time only yawned. Let them go, all agreed.

The spirit of secession, the desire of peoples to sever ties to nations to which they have belonged for generations, sometimes for centuries, and to seek out their own kind, is a spreading phenomenon.

Scotland is moving toward a referendum on independence from England, three centuries after the Acts of Union. Catalonia pushes to be free of Madrid. Milanese and Venetians see themselves as a European people apart from Sicilians, Neapolitans and Romans.

Dutch-speaking Flanders wants to cut loose of French-speaking Wallonia in Belgium. Francophone Quebec, with immigrants from Asia and the Third World tilting the balance in favor of union, appears to have lost its historic moment to secede from Canada.

What are the forces pulling nations apart? Ethnicity, culture, history and language -- but now also economics. And separatist and secessionist movements are cropping up here in the United States.

While many Red State Americans are moving away from Blue State America, seeking kindred souls among whom to live, those who love where they live but not those who rule them are seeking to secede.

The five counties of Western Maryland -- Garrett, Allegheny, Washington, Frederick and Carroll, which have more in common with West Virginia and wish to be rid of Baltimore and free of Annapolis, are talking secession.

The issues driving secession in Maryland are gun control, high taxes, energy policy, homosexual marriage and immigration.

Scott Strzelczyk, who lives in the town of Windsor in Carroll County and leads the Western Maryland Initiative, argues: "If you have a long list of grievances, and it's been going on for decades, and you can't get it resolved, ultimately [secession] is what you have to do."

And there is precedent. Four of our 50 states -- Maine, Vermont, Kentucky, West Virginia -- were born out of other states.

Ten northern counties of Colorado are this November holding non-binding referenda to prepare a future secession from Denver and the creation of America's 51st state.

Nine of the 10 Colorado counties talking secession and a new state, writes Reid Wilson of the Washington Post -- Cheyenne, Kit Carson, Logan, Morgan, Phillips, Sedgwick, Washington, Weld and Yuma -- all gave more than 62 percent of their votes to Mitt Romney. Five of these 10 counties gave Romney more than 75 percent of their vote.

Their issues with the Denver legislature: A new gun control law that triggered a voter recall of two Democratic state senators, state restrictions on oil exploration, and the Colorado legislature's party-line vote in support of gay marriage.

In California, which many have long believed should be split in two, the northern counties of Modoc and Siskyou on the Oregon border are talking succession -- and then union in a new state called Jefferson.

"California is essentially ungovernable in its present size," says Mark Baird of the Jefferson Declaration Committee. Baird hopes to attract a dozen counties to join together before petitioning the state to secede.

Like the western Maryland and northern Colorado counties, the northern California counties are conservative, small town, rural, and have little in common with San Francisco or Los Angeles, or Sacramento, where Republicans hold not one statewide office and are outnumbered better than 2-1 in both houses of the state legislature.

Folks on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, bordered by Wisconsin and the Great Lakes, which is connected to lower Michigan by a bridge, have long dreamed of a separate state called Superior. The UP has little in common with Lansing and nothing with Detroit.

While the folks in western Maryland, northern Colorado, northern California and on the Upper Peninsula might be described as Red State secessionists, in Vermont the secessionists seem of the populist left. The Montpelier Manifesto of the Second Vermont Republic concludes:

"Citizens, lend your names to this manifesto and join in the honorable task of rejecting the immoral, corrupt, decaying, dying, failing American Empire and seeking its rapid and peaceful dissolution before it takes us all down with it."

This sort of intemperate language may be found in Thomas Jefferson's indictment of George III. If America does not get its fiscal house in order, and another Great Recession hits or our elites dragoon us into another imperial war, we will likely hear more of such talk.
http://townhall.com/columnists/patbuchanan/2013/10/11/is-red-state-america-seceding-n1720999/page/full

Occam's Banana
10-11-2013, 06:50 PM
Excellent read. And if you prefer LRC to Townhall (as all sane people do ... :p):


Is Red State America Seceding?
By Patrick J. Buchanan
October 11, 2013

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/10/patrick-j-buchanan/secede-3/

NorthCarolinaLiberty
10-11-2013, 06:52 PM
Pat Buchanan? I thought he was dead.

Origanalist
10-11-2013, 06:52 PM
Lol, yes, sane people do. Missed that post........

Origanalist
10-11-2013, 06:53 PM
Pat Buchanan? I thought he was dead.

Nope.

heavenlyboy34
10-11-2013, 06:54 PM
Pat Buchanan? I thought he was dead.
As far as relevance goes, he may as well be. ;)

NorthCarolinaLiberty
10-11-2013, 06:55 PM
Nope.

Oh well; maybe I'm thinking of James Buchanan.

Origanalist
10-11-2013, 06:57 PM
As far as relevance goes, he may as well be. ;)

Here, maybe. He still has a audience, and I'm always going to post anything about succession.

Occam's Banana
10-11-2013, 06:58 PM
As far as relevance goes, he may as well be. ;)

Dunno about that. I find the OP article by Buchanan very relevant ...

mad cow
10-11-2013, 07:04 PM
This is a very positive development.I hope it spreads.

Paulbot99
10-11-2013, 07:04 PM
I'm sure the liberals are mature enough not to cite racism and the Confederacy instead of rational argument, right? ;)

heavenlyboy34
10-11-2013, 07:05 PM
Dunno about that. I find the OP article by Buchanan very relevant ...
Well, I'm feeling kind of snarky today. I'm in a silly mood. :D

Origanalist
10-11-2013, 07:11 PM
I'm sure the liberals are mature enough not to cite racism and the Confederacy instead of rational argument, right? ;)

How could you think otherwise???:confused: :eek:

Occam's Banana
10-11-2013, 07:18 PM
I'm sure the liberals are mature enough not to cite racism and the Confederacy instead of rational argument, right? ;)

"Buncha goddam neo-Confederate racists, the whole stinkin' lot o' ya!" :rolleyes:


Well, I'm feeling kind of snarky today. I'm in a silly mood. :D

Been there. Done that.
Will be there. Will do that.
;)

Paulbot99
10-11-2013, 07:22 PM
How could you think otherwise???:confused: :eek:


"Buncha goddam neo-Confederate racists, the whole stinkin' lot o' ya!" :rolleyes:



Been there. Done that.
Will be there. Will do that.
;)

"They'll reenslave African Americans and reinstitute Jim Crow!" ;)

Origanalist
10-11-2013, 07:31 PM
" They'll reenslave African Americans and reinstitute Jim Crow!" :O

I have a better idea. Let's take the ruling class and the tax tick parasites and put them in compulsory labor.

heavenlyboy34
10-11-2013, 07:34 PM
I have a better idea. Let's take the ruling class and the tax tick parasites and put them in compulsory labor.
Most social security recipients are too old and/or fat to do that well. ;)

Origanalist
10-11-2013, 07:47 PM
Most social security recipients are too old and/or fat to do that well. ;)

Good point, however, you're forgetting about federal employee's, law enforcement, state employee's etc......

Paulbot99
10-11-2013, 07:48 PM
But... What about all the unemployment it'd cause?! :eek:

Origanalist
10-11-2013, 07:49 PM
But... What about all the unemployment it'd cause?! :eek:

Easy! Just raise the minimum wage!

Paulbot99
10-11-2013, 07:51 PM
Of course! Why didn't I think of that? What about when all those greedy capitalist pigs start firing workers and leaving the country?

Origanalist
10-11-2013, 07:54 PM
Of course! Why didn't I think of that? What about when all those greedy capitalist pigs start firing workers and leaving the country?

Do I have to lead you through this????:rolleyes:

We invade those countries and haul them all off to federal prison for treason.......

Paulbot99
10-11-2013, 07:57 PM
Ah, I'm sorry. That was slow of me. Of course, I'm not an economist, so I'm not qualified to question or make economic decisions since the economy is hopelessly complicated. Only the geniuses involved in planning the economy can figure it out and be right 100% of the time.

Zippyjuan
10-11-2013, 08:15 PM
The two California counties listed are pretty small. Medoc county is about 9000 people and Siskyou about 40,000.

Origanalist
10-11-2013, 08:33 PM
The two California counties listed are pretty small. Medoc county is about 9000 people and Siskyou about 40,000.

Great! They don't count for much, let em' go.

Origanalist
10-11-2013, 08:35 PM
Ah, I'm sorry. That was slow of me. Of course, I'm not an economist, so I'm not qualified to question or make economic decisions since the economy is hopelessly complicated. Only the geniuses involved in planning the economy can figure it out and be right 100% of the time.

I don't think you really have to be a economist. You just have to put someone who says they are in charge of the federal reserve.

Paulbot99
10-11-2013, 08:42 PM
How could you think otherwise???:confused: :eek:


"Buncha goddam neo-Confederate racists, the whole stinkin' lot o' ya!" :rolleyes:



Been there. Done that.
Will be there. Will do that.
;)


I don't think you really have to be a economist. You just have to put someone who says they are in charge of the federal reserve.

Ah. I see.

Occam's Banana
10-11-2013, 08:44 PM
Easy! Just raise the minimum wage!

We invade those countries and haul them all off to federal prison for treason.......

I don't think you really have to be a economist. You just have to put someone who says they are in charge of the federal reserve.

Origanalist for President 2016!!! He's got this "government" thing down cold ...

Carson
10-11-2013, 08:47 PM
The poor little guy is force to secede on a much smaller scale... more of a push back to try and remain standing.

Origanalist
10-11-2013, 08:51 PM
Origanalist for President 2016!!! He's got this "government" thing down cold ...

I humbly accept your nomination my black spotted, yellow skinned friend.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uK4vtGkt5Co

Keith and stuff
10-11-2013, 08:57 PM
Pat is obviously completely wrong. As he said (so maybe he is right) all of these places are located in Democratic leaning, or if you will, Blue states. And they certainly aren't going to succeed as seceding. It is a fun story, though.

Icymudpuppy
10-11-2013, 10:33 PM
I'm surprised he didn't mention East and SW WA state splitting from the Leftist Seattle/Tacoma/Everett/Olympia/Bellingham/Bremerton.

Lucille
10-12-2013, 09:34 AM
How to Secede from a State Without Really Trying
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2013/10/11/how-to-secede-from-a-state-without-really-trying/


Secession fever is spreading. In red and blue pockets of America, disgruntled residents are organizing efforts to split up with their home states, from liberals in southern Arizona to conservatives in rural Colorado and Western Maryland.

The biggest obstacle for these movements would seem to be the Constitution, which requires secessionists to get the blessing of their state Legislature and then Congress.

There might be an easier way, says Eugene Kontorovich, a law professor at Northwestern University, in a provocative post at Volokh Conspiracy. Rather than forming a new “51st” state, how about seceding to join an existing state?

“The Constitution’s requirement of home-state and congressional consent only clearly applies to the creation of a ‘new state,’ ” Mr. Kontorovich writes.

Here’s what Article IV, Section 3 of the Constitution says:


New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new state shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state, nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned, as well as of the Congress.

Mr. Kontorovich concedes that it’s not totally clear what it means to “form” a new state. But he thinks one can make a more compelling case that merely shrinking or enlarging boundaries isn’t the same thing as creating a new state.

“If western Maryland secedes to join West Virginia, would one say West Virginia has been ‘formed’ by the merger of West Virginia and parts of Maryland? I would say ‘West Virginia’ has already been formed,” he writes.

He says the historical context also jibes with his reading of it. The Founders, he says, inserted that provision to deal with carving up the western territories and the incorporation of the Republic of Vermont.

Mr. Kontorovich is clear that he’s not advocating for secession, saying he doesn’t take all this secessionist talk too seriously. And it’s not exactly clear how one would go about the process of interstate secession. “The state secessionists’ best bet would be to have some local referendum or Convention that would overwhelmingly favor joining another state,” he writes.

But here’s the kicker: While it may be more convenient, there’s no constitutional requirement that states be contiguous. That means, he writes, “potential secessionists could go ‘on the market’ to find the best potential state to unify with.”

cajuncocoa
10-12-2013, 09:38 AM
I'm sure the liberals are mature enough not to cite racism and the Confederacy instead of rational argument, right? ;)

Of course they're not. But if non-liberals keep allowing liberals to define the rules of the debate, real progress will never be made for liberty.

tod evans
10-12-2013, 09:54 AM
I can't think of one state in the union where the rural population wouldn't gladly succeed from the cities.

seapilot
10-12-2013, 10:18 AM
But here’s the kicker: While it may be more convenient, there’s no constitutional requirement that states be contiguous. That means, he writes, “potential secessionists could go ‘on the market’ to find the best potential state to unify with.”

That takes out of the box thinking. For example say Northern California wanted to be part of Texas or North Dakota. West Maryland becomes part of Wyoming. That would be wild. All it takes is a couple of counties trying this and if successful a cascade would follow. Colorado would end up being only Denver city state. There would end up being a few gigantic states and many little city states surrounded by them.

Icymudpuppy
10-12-2013, 10:53 AM
I would love to see all metro areas become little city states, and surrounding countryside be in their own states. Those city-states could wallow in their degenerative unfilling hive lives, and we country folk can have some real freedom.

tod evans
10-12-2013, 10:57 AM
I would love to see all metro areas become little city states, and surrounding countryside be in their own states. Those city-states could wallow in their degenerative unfilling hive lives, and we country folk can have some real freedom.

Sing it from the treetops!

Origanalist
10-12-2013, 11:14 AM
I would love to see all metro areas become little city states, and surrounding countryside be in their own states. Those city-states could wallow in their degenerative unfilling hive lives, and we country folk can have some real freedom.

Yeah brother!

WM_in_MO
10-12-2013, 12:07 PM
New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new state shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state, nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned, as well as of the Congress.

Yet another glaring flaw in the constitution.

TruckinMike
10-12-2013, 01:58 PM
Here’s what Article IV, Section 3 of the Constitution says:

New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new state shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state, nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned, as well as of the Congress.


However precedent may win the day --- If West Virginia can do it (http://www.barefootsworld.net/constit5.html)then so can Jefferson, or any other would be state. I say create a militia, draw the borders, and secede.

WM_in_MO
10-12-2013, 09:44 PM
However precedent may win the day --- If West Virginia can do it (http://www.barefootsworld.net/constit5.html)then so can Jefferson, or any other would be state. I say create a militia, draw the borders, and secede.

Exactly. We seceded from the Brits, how's that for precedence?

heavenlyboy34
10-12-2013, 09:57 PM
Exactly. We seceded from the Brits, how's that for precedence?
Well, that revolution came pretty close to fail...so probably not a good precedent for the modern era-what with the regimes heavy weaponry and all. :( Just thinking aloud....

TruckinMike
10-13-2013, 05:54 AM
My point was that West Virginia became a state after splitting from Virginia -- completely disregarding the Constitution.

Not to mention Texas....

Texas already has congressional approval to be split into four additional states.


The joint resolution of Congress (March 1, 1845)

New States of convenient size not exceeding four in number, in addition to said State of Texas and having sufficient population, may, hereafter by the consent of said State, be formed out of the territory thereof, which shall be entitled to admission under the provisions of the Federal Constitution.


Did the free-state project pick the wrong state?

MRK
10-13-2013, 06:35 AM
My point was that West Virginia became a state after splitting from Virginia -- completely disregarding the Constitution.

Not to mention Texas....

Texas already has congressional approval to be split into four additional states.



Did the free-state project pick the wrong state?

Holy cow, that's a gem of a find. Where and when did you hear about this?

TruckinMike
10-13-2013, 06:36 AM
Holy cow, that's a gem of a find. Where and when did you hear about this? I found it on the above link (http://www.barefootsworld.net/constit5.html) concerning West virginia, then searched Texas annexation --- 20 minutes ago.

Matt Collins
10-13-2013, 12:19 PM
This article is gaining wide reach