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View Full Version : Is Ted Cruz the "controlled opposition"?




dillo
09-25-2013, 01:03 AM
Let me preface this by saying I think Rand Paul is a major contender for the 2016 republican nomination. I dont think Ron ever was considered a big enough contender that the establishment felt threatened. Ron sure made some noise and the movement in the grassroots was remarkable, but for whatever reason you want to list he wasn't a threat(at least until IOWA).

Rand Paul will hold a lot of those people that followed his father, his grassroots will probably be just as good as Ron's and he is a contender. In the past 2 republican primaries Ron was basically on his own for a lot of his views with respect to the other candidates. If the establishment views Rand as a threat isn't establishing a controlled opposition to themselves the next option.

Is Ted Cruz that controlled opposition to siphon the liberty vote off Rand or to discredit his ideas? Or is he just coat tailing off Rands success from the filibuster over domestic drone programs?

fr33
09-25-2013, 01:08 AM
I'm just gonna put this here...

382761349572333568

enhanced_deficit
09-25-2013, 01:11 AM
Having resaerched his character and stances bit more and after seeing today his prayer stunt outside White House for cultivating war with Iran, I have improved my view of him. Ted Cruz does seem like controlled opposition, he acts like a plant of war mongering neocons and a self serving opportunist like Obama.

Shocking that he only prayed for one imprisoned Christian in Iran with press cameras ready and israeli PM's VIP guest kneeling beside him but he forgot to pray for scores of Christians being persecuted in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Palestine by forces of oppression.


Original post:
No

Although some neocon lobbies seem intrested in recruiting him as such. He himself is to blame for this considering the depth of his pandering to war mongering lunatics like CUFI, John Hagee etc. He really ended his future political chances by shamelessly bending down for these nuts.

That said.. For Cruz, CUFI Sunk AUFI (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?428650-What-Cruz-is-doing-is-WORKING!&p=5240863&viewfull=1#post5240863)

VoluntaryAmerican
09-25-2013, 01:14 AM
Put me down as a probably. Voted yes. If he's not controlled he's just a sell out waiting to happen.

jbauer
09-25-2013, 05:44 AM
No doubt he is.

CaptUSA
09-25-2013, 06:31 AM
Didn't like the options, but I voted no. I don't think he's controlled opposition, but I also don't think he's some great defender of liberty. I see him as a useful ally on many strategic issues. As with all allies, he will falter and waver at some point and it will probably end up hurting a bit, but the benefit far exceeds the cost, IMO.

JCDenton0451
09-25-2013, 06:43 AM
Ted Cruz is a self-serving asshole. That much is certain.

LibertyEagle
09-25-2013, 06:47 AM
I don't know. Time will tell. Right now though, he is an ally to Rand on many things.

cajuncocoa
09-25-2013, 06:48 AM
I'm just gonna put this here...

382761349572333568

1 Retweet and 1 Favorite? Amateur! :D

CPUd
09-25-2013, 06:56 AM
Didn't Ron Paul endorse this guy when Rick Perry and others in the party was backing Dewhurst?

Bastiat's The Law
09-25-2013, 07:02 AM
Didn't Ron Paul endorse this guy when Rick Perry and others in the party was backing Dewhurst?

Yes, and he's been a pleasant thorn in the side of the establishment.

Bastiat's The Law
09-25-2013, 07:06 AM
Try making a list of the top 5 thorns in the side of the Washington Establishment without Cruz being on that list. After Rand and Amash, Cruz is probably top 3.

Jeremy
09-25-2013, 07:08 AM
Why are RPFers conspiracy theorists about everything? We can't have a single ally without him or her being criticized of being some sort of double agent trying to trick us. I mean COME ON PEOPLE, REALLY?

Really though I think this is some sort of bizarre jealousy over Cruz speaking longer than Rand...

JCDenton0451
09-25-2013, 07:09 AM
Try making a list of the top 5 thorns in the side of the Washington Establishment without Cruz being on that list. After Rand and Amash, Cruz is probably top 3.

So was Michelle Bachmann, but I would rather have a Republican party without Bachmann.

Warlord
09-25-2013, 07:13 AM
Cruz is connected to the establishment via his wife who is a big Bush lover and Goldman's banker.

This filibuster he's doing is futile and he's trying to copy Rand to gain kudos

FrankRep
09-25-2013, 07:20 AM
https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-ash1/c25.2.360.360/s160x160/998213_589586524427488_623187525_n.jpg (https://www.facebook.com/SenatorRandPaul)

Senator Rand Paul: (https://www.facebook.com/SenatorRandPaul)



Senator Cruz still going! I'm on my way back to help him out this morning. Tune in to hear more about #MakeDCListen

UtahApocalypse
09-25-2013, 07:25 AM
This charade that is not a filibuster is absolute proof he is a fraud.

Jeremy
09-25-2013, 07:31 AM
This charade that is not a filibuster is absolute proof he is a fraud.

Seriously?

Warlord
09-25-2013, 07:33 AM
Seriously?

The vote happens at 1pm whatever so he's not filibustering in reality

Bastiat's The Law
09-25-2013, 07:36 AM
Why are RPFers conspiracy theorists about everything? We can't have a single ally without him or her being criticized of being some sort of double agent trying to trick us. I mean COME ON PEOPLE, REALLY?

Really though I think this is some sort of bizarre jealousy over Cruz speaking longer than Rand...

They lack critical thinking.
http://31.media.tumblr.com/679a73d6f945c68ed28f0881af757b66/tumblr_mizbc3VWht1ri1icuo1_500.jpg

SilentBull
09-25-2013, 07:36 AM
I don't know. Time will tell. Right now though, he is an ally to Rand on many things.

That's how I feel too. I really hope his plan is to use his popularity among Republicans to help Rand win.

Warlord
09-25-2013, 07:38 AM
That's how I feel too. I really hope his plan is to use his popularity among Republicans to help Rand win.

No chance. He wants the nomination himself so he can defeat Rand like a smiling assassin.

Jeremy
09-25-2013, 07:38 AM
The vote happens at 1pm whatever so he's not filibustering in reality

So that means he's a double agent? HUH?

JCDenton0451
09-25-2013, 07:53 AM
So that means he's a double agent? HUH?

He went to great lengths to imitate Rand, clearly aiming for his voters. But this is all a charade! Cruz is no position to stop or delay Obamacare or even have an impact on the debate surrounding Obamacare. And he knows it. This fake filibuster just a long self-promotion stunt for Ted Cruz.

Jeremy
09-25-2013, 07:54 AM
He went to great lengths to imitate Rand, clearly aiming for his voters. But this is all a charade! Cruz is no position to stop or delay Obamacare or even have an impact on the debate surrounding Obamacare. And he knows it. This fake filibuster just a long self-promotion stunt for Ted Cruz.
Rand couldn't stop drones either. But even if what you said is true, why does that make him a double agent?

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 07:55 AM
He went to great lengths to imitate Rand, clearly aiming for his voters. But this is all a charade! Cruz is no position to stop or delay Obamacare or even have an impact on the debate surrounding Obamacare. And he knows it. This fake filibuster just a long self-promotion stunt for Ted Cruz.

It is amazing to me that people who spend so much time discussing politics have no idea what is going on. Cruz is running point on defunding Obamacare, if he can get 41 Senators to vote NO on cloture then the House CR will not be stripped apart by Reid with only 51 Dem votes. This has been said time and time again, yet some of you folks have your heads buried so far up your ass that you cannot understand it.

Warlord
09-25-2013, 08:01 AM
Rand couldn't stop drones either. But even if what you said is true, why does that make him a double agent?

Rand did an actual filibuster and pissed off Reid.

Jeremy
09-25-2013, 08:02 AM
Rand did an actual filibuster and pissed off Reid.

So filibuster = legit,
Long speech = inside job?

Warlord
09-25-2013, 08:06 AM
So filibuster = legit,
Long speech = inside job?

No Jeremy. Although it's right to call it a long speech instead of a filibuster

As for Cruz... his wife is major establishment, Goldman's banker and Bush lover.

Jeremy
09-25-2013, 08:08 AM
No Jeremy. Although it's right to call it a long speech instead of a filibuster

So he's not controlled opposition despite your vote stating he is?

Warlord
09-25-2013, 08:09 AM
So he's not controlled opposition despite your vote stating he is?

See edit.

JCDenton0451
09-25-2013, 08:10 AM
Rand couldn't stop drones either. But even if what you said is true, why does that make him a double agent?

Rand changed the public opinion on drones, and slightly changed the Republican party in the process.

I have long said that Cruz is a political opportunist, with no clear principles, driven only by his personal ambition. The man is trouble, regardless of whether or not he actually made a pact with the Establishment.

specsaregood
09-25-2013, 08:11 AM
This thread is a perfect example of why even a lot of people that like or respect Ron and Rand; will go out of their way to say they despise their supporters. Oh, and accuse us of that whole cult of personality thing too.

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 08:15 AM
This thread is a perfect example of why even a lot of people that like or respect Ron and Rand; will go out of their way to say they despise their supporters. Oh, and accuse us of that whole cult of personality thing too.

Exactly. Some people cannot see the forest through the trees. Or perhaps it is more important for some to be part of a little clique rather than part of a growing movement.

JCDenton0451
09-25-2013, 08:16 AM
It is amazing to me that people who spend so much time discussing politics have no idea what is going on. Cruz is running point on defunding Obamacare, if he can get 41 Senators to vote NO on cloture then the House CR will not be stripped apart by Reid with only 51 Dem votes. This has been said time and time again, yet some of you folks have your heads buried so far up your ass that you cannot understand it. The funding for Obamacare was already approved by the law, and CR shenanigans won't affect Obamacare at all. Cruz's "plan" is to shut down government, and then blackmail Obama into giving up on his signature healthcare law in exchange for GOP allowing the government to become operational again.

Does this sound like a plan to you?

WD-NY
09-25-2013, 08:20 AM
Neither wins w/o the other in 2016 - together, Rand supporters + Cruz supporters = unbeatable in 2016 GOP primary. The good news is that both Rand and Cruz know this. The bad news is that so does the Establishment (who are going to do everything they can to split their vote by creating a wedge b/w them).

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 08:24 AM
The funding for Obamacare was already approved by the law, and CR shenanigans won't affect Obamacare at all. Cruz's "plan" is to shut down government, and then blackmail Obama into giving up on his signature healthcare law in exchange for GOP allowing the government to become operational again.

Does this sound like a plan to you?

Yes it is a damn good plan, and the only thing that we currently have available to stop this law from being funded. We have to fight for principle even when the odds are against us. When Ron Paul would propose legislation that would go nowhere, he was applauded by folks here, but when Cruz, Rand, Lee, et al are fighting an uphill battle its pointless? :rolleyes:

AuH20
09-25-2013, 08:27 AM
Ron Paul doesn't even act as petty as his supporters do. If anyone has certified concrete evidence (phone recordings, documents, embrassing photos) that Ted Cruz is controlled opposition, then come forward. Until then, this is all fanciful conjecture. I don't know where his loyalties lie but for the months he's been in the Senate, his performance should be applauded.

cajuncocoa
09-25-2013, 08:29 AM
Neither of those choices work for me. I don't see Cruz as "controlled" opposition, but he's definitely NOT a defender of liberty. Not with the positions he takes on some issues: http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/Ted_Cruz.htm

brandon
09-25-2013, 08:33 AM
Anyone who talks about "controlled opposition" is freaking clueless. He's not a secret reptilian working for the NWO sent here just to make sure you always lose. We really need to drop this type of language if we ever want to sit at the adult table.


Cruz is a politician. The real question is how sincere is he and how corruptible is he? I'm not convinced either way on that.

JCDenton0451
09-25-2013, 08:34 AM
Yes it is a damn good plan, and the only thing that we currently have available to stop this law from being funded. We have to fight for principle even when the odds are against us. When Ron Paul would propose legislation that would go nowhere, he was applauded by folks here, but when Cruz, Rand, Lee, et al are fighting an uphill battle its pointless? :rolleyes:

You are wrong.

Obama will not give in to any Republican blackmail, because his pride is at stake, and the Democrats will support their president. The GOP simply doesn't have the leverage vs Obama to force him to compromise on his healthcare law, and even if they did, the tactic Cruz chose is both reckless, thuggish and disgusting, and would surely backfire against the GOP.

Brett85
09-25-2013, 08:36 AM
I can't really vote for either option. Cruz isn't "controlled opposition," but I can't really say that he's a "legit defender of liberty." But I still think that if he runs for President in 2016, he'll be the most liberty-oriented candidate running except for Rand, so if Rand doesn't win the GOP nomination, I hope that Cruz does. He would kind of be the fall back candidate if Rand doesn't do well.

69360
09-25-2013, 08:38 AM
Cruz is ok, this long speech (not filibuster) is stupid and pointless, the democrats control the senate so it is not possible to stop obamacare.

SilentBull
09-25-2013, 08:47 AM
No chance. He wants the nomination himself so he can defeat Rand like a smiling assassin.

We don't really know that though. And I admit, he makes me nervous because of the way they're using him to steal Rand's thunder. But we don't really know whether or not that's Cruz's intention. For all we know, Rand and Cruz have talked about this, and decided it was Cruz's job to go after the hardcore republicans so he can then endorse Rand and convince them to get on board.

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 08:58 AM
You are wrong.

Obama will not give in to any Republican blackmail, because his pride is at stake, and the Democrats will support their president. The GOP simply doesn't have the leverage vs Obama to force him to compromise on his healthcare law, and even if they did, the tactic Cruz chose is both reckless, thuggish and disgusting, and would surely backfire against the GOP.


Fucking liberals - worse here than on DailyKos sometimes. Take your whining elsewhere. Cruz is standing on principle.

kathy88
09-25-2013, 09:02 AM
This thread is a perfect example of why even a lot of people that like or respect Ron and Rand; will go out of their way to say they despise their supporters. Oh, and accuse us of that whole cult of personality thing too.

Too fucking bad. I'm too old not to voice my opinion an pretend that some bankster shill is a Liberty candidate just so I don't scare people away. I'm gonna let my freak flag fly and tell it like it is. Always. I'm so sick of people trying to control who can and can't play and what they can and can't talk about. Cruz is an establishment tool.

PaleoPaul
09-25-2013, 09:07 AM
Too fucking bad. I'm too old not to voice my opinion an pretend that some bankster shill is a Liberty candidate just so I don't scare people away. I'm gonna let my freak flag fly and tell it like it is. Always. I'm so sick of people trying to control who can and can't play and what they can and can't talk about. Cruz is an establishment tool.
So he's "banker" because his wife worked for GS, and it wasn't even that lucrative of a position?

That's like saying I'd be a NWO tool because I may have dated a man that ate lunch with the head of the CFR one time.

AuH20
09-25-2013, 09:08 AM
Do you see Rand hanging out with Rubio? It's pretty telling, when he hangs out with Cruz. So just based on that association I'm skeptical of all the Ted Cruz theories.

JCDenton0451
09-25-2013, 09:09 AM
Fucking liberals - worse here than on DailyKos sometimes. Take your whining elsewhere. Cruz is standing on principle.

Pffft. I'm far from a liberal - just read my posting history.

There is a not so subtle difference between standing on principle, which is what Rand Paul does, and blackmailing your political opponents, which is what Ted Cruz is trying to do.

Now, I think Ted Cruz is smarter than you're. He understands that his "plan" is going nowhere, and his real goal is to raise his profile among the dumber part of Republican base.

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 09:11 AM
Now, I think Ted Cruz is smarter than you're. He understands that his "plan" is going nowhere, and his real goal is to raise his profile among the dumber part of Republican base.

So when Ron Paul would propose bill after bill that would go nowhere, and when he would be the lone "no" vote in the House was he standing on principle or was he merely trying to raise his profile?

kathy88
09-25-2013, 09:11 AM
So he's "banker" because his wife worked for GS, and it wasn't even that lucrative of a position?

That's like saying I'd be a NWO tool because I may have dated a man that ate lunch with the head of the CFR one time.

No, actually that's nothing like it at all.

PaleoPaul
09-25-2013, 09:14 AM
No, actually that's nothing like it at all.
The fact is, it was his wife that worked for GS, and she was an investment manager. Investment manager! Ooooh! How prestigious! She had such a high position! I think I'll pee my pants at how powerful she was!

AuH20
09-25-2013, 09:16 AM
Pffft. I'm far from a liberal - just read my posting history.

There is a not so subtle difference between standing on principle, which is what Rand Paul does, and blackmailing your political opponents, which is what Ted Cruz is trying to do.

Now, I think Ted Cruz is smarter than you're. He understands that his "plan" is going nowhere, and his real goal is to raise his profile among the dumber part of Republican base.

Ted Cruz cajoled the House Republicans into following through on this exercise and he was put on the spot after it was passed. That's what is transpiring. He is fulfilling his part of the bargain.Don't read more into it.

Warlord
09-25-2013, 09:16 AM
The fact is, it was his wife that worked for GS, and she was an investment manager. Investment manager! Ooooh! How prestigious! She had such a high position! I think I'll pee my pants at how powerful she was!

She works for GS and is a senior executive there. Look it up. She also worked in the White House and they founded Maverick PAC with Bush's nephew

Jeremy
09-25-2013, 09:18 AM
Do you see Rand hanging out with Rubio? It's pretty telling, when he hangs out with Cruz. So just based on that association I'm skeptical of all the Ted Cruz theories.The fact is, certain people on this forum are much more prone to believe baseless conspiracy theories. I take their beliefs with a grain of salt.

PaleoPaul
09-25-2013, 09:19 AM
She works for GS and is a senior executive there. Look it up. She also worked in the White House and they founded Maverick PAC with Bush's nephew
Doesn't mean a thing. Cruz is good as an ally on important issues. I think it would be pretty Machiavellian of us to use people who may be necessary for our purposes. And that's what we should do with Cruz. Have him by our side when we need him, and when he's bad on the other stuff, stay away from him.

JCDenton0451
09-25-2013, 09:20 AM
So when Ron Paul would propose bill after bill that would go nowhere, and when he would be the lone "no" vote in the House was he standing on principle or was he merely trying to raise his profile?

1. Ron Paul is not a thug.

2. Ron Paul never engaged in blackmail to get what he wanted

3. Ron Paul always does what he thinks is right, not necessarily what makes him popular.

specsaregood
09-25-2013, 09:21 AM
Too fucking bad. I'm too old not to voice my opinion an pretend that some bankster shill is a Liberty candidate just so I don't scare people away. I'm gonna let my freak flag fly and tell it like it is. Always. I'm so sick of people trying to control who can and can't play and what they can and can't talk about. Cruz is an establishment tool.

Yes, well I had no delusions that the "freaks" would change their behavior. And I certainly don't think they are controllable. If Ron and Rand both endorsing and supporting Cruz isn't enough to convince you all -- he says himself that they were instrumental in getting him elected in the first place -- then I certainly don't expect my random posts on the forum to make a damn bit of difference. So feel free to fly your flag high and I'll feel free to mock it.

Warlord
09-25-2013, 09:21 AM
Doesn't mean a thing. Cruz is good as an ally on important issues. I think it would be pretty Machiavellian of us to use people who may be necessary for our purposes. And that's what we should do with Cruz. Have him by our side when we need him, and when he's bad on the other stuff, stay away from him.

Yes it does mean a thing IMO. He's not to be trusted. His wife is directly tied to the banksters

PaleoPaul
09-25-2013, 09:22 AM
Yes, well I had no delusions that the "freaks" would change their behavior. And I certainly don't think they are controllable. If Ron and Rand both endorsing and supporting Cruz isn't enough to convince you all -- he says himself that they were instrumental in getting him elected in the first place -- then I certainly don't expect my random posts on the forum to make a damn bit of difference. So feel free to fly your flag high and I'll feel free to mock it.
This will fly over the heads of the purists and conspiracy theorists.

AuH20
09-25-2013, 09:23 AM
The fact is, certain people on this forum are much more prone to believe baseless conspiracy theories. I take their beliefs with a grain of salt.

There are real conspiracy theories backed up with first hand corroboration, but as of September 25th, 2013, this isn't one of them.

JCDenton0451
09-25-2013, 09:28 AM
Ted Cruz cajoled the House Republicans into following through on this exercise and he was put on the spot after it was passed. That's what is transpiring. He is fulfilling his part of the bargain.Don't read more into it.

So, this is about Cruz protecting his reputation and his credibility with Republicans then? Not really about stopping Obamacare? That's not much different from what I was saying.

Still, this is a reckless and self-defeating tactic for the GOP, and Cruz as the architect of it deserves all the bashing.

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 09:31 AM
So, this is about Cruz protecting his reputation and his credibility with Republicans then? Not really about stopping Obamacare? That's not much different from what I was saying.

Still, this is a reckless and self-defeating tactic for the GOP, and Cruz as the architect of it deserves all the bashing.

So you would do what then? Nothing? Vote for cloture, fund the law and damn the consequences? That would not be serving your constituents, particularly when if you are in a state where the voters are overwhelmingly opposed to Obamacare.

kathy88
09-25-2013, 09:31 AM
Yes, well I had no delusions that the "freaks" would change their behavior. And I certainly don't think they are controllable. If Ron and Rand both endorsing and supporting Cruz isn't enough to convince you all -- he says himself that they were instrumental in getting him elected in the first place -- then I certainly don't expect my random posts on the forum to make a damn bit of difference. So feel free to fly your flag high and I'll feel free to mock it.

You won't be mocking it it when Cruz gets the nomination and everyone's sitting around here crying and wondering how it happened. Or worse, trying to convince everyone that it's a good thing and we're WINNING.

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 09:32 AM
You won't be mocking it it when Cruz gets the nomination and everyone's sitting around here crying and wondering how it happened. Or worse, trying to convince everyone that it's a good thing and we're WINNING.

I don't think that will happen, but there are worse people that could win the nomination: Bush, Rubio, Christie....

kathy88
09-25-2013, 09:33 AM
I don't think that will happen, but there are worse people that could win the nomination: Bush, Rubio, Christie....

Case in point.

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 09:36 AM
Case in point.

I'm still aware that libertarians and paleocons are a minority within the party. We are growing, but we do not have the numbers yet. Possibly, Rand will be able to win the nomination - I think he has a good shot at it. But if he does not, I would prefer a Cruz over the others, because come the general either the GOP or the Dem nominee will win the White House and if it is going to be a Republican a Cruz will be much more in line with my ideology than a Christie.

klamath
09-25-2013, 09:38 AM
No. He maybe will be the guy that the opposition rallies behind to cut off Rand but is he scheming tool of the neocons. No.

Tinnuhana
09-25-2013, 10:24 AM
If nothing else, he's giving Rand a means of broadening his (Rand's) base, looking like a team player without compromising his principles. This marathon speaking engagement might not be a good idea, but at least Rand can say "Good try", ask a few questions, etc.
And if the GOP "elite" are gearing up to possibly split the Paul vote, that doesn't mean that Cruz is in on it. He might just be floating the idea with an eye down the road or a cabinet position. It would be nice to have someone else up on the debate podia (sic?) with a non-RINO message. Given how the GOP and media ran from candidate to candidate last primary, I think we could relax a little; concentrate more on issues, education and nearing local elections. Too early to get nasty about possible candidates and presumed slights. Let's not scare off people waking up to the message and coming to RPF's, DP, etc. to learn more.

Brett85
09-25-2013, 11:09 AM
Pffft. I'm far from a liberal - just read my posting history.

Your posting history suggests that you're very liberal. The only issue you're conservative on is immigration.

dannno
09-25-2013, 11:09 AM
This will fly over the heads of the purists and conspiracy theorists.

I'm saving this thread so I can show everybody in a few months or years how ridiculous you all sound.

You anti-conspiracy theorist people haven't got a clue how things work and you put words in our mouths that don't make any sense.

brandon, for example, may have been exaggerating but said that Ted Cruz would have to be a reptilian in order for him to be controlled opposition. It really shows how little all of you understand the concept of what controlled opposition actually is.

If Ted Cruz is the real deal, the establishment will not help to prop him up.

If Ted Cruz is controlled opposition, then the establishment will help to prop him up.

It's really that simple. If Ted Cruz ever does something the establishment REALLY doesn't like, they have ways of dropping him off the map just like the rest of the controlled opposition, you people don't even know what the term means.

cajuncocoa
09-25-2013, 11:18 AM
Fucking liberals - worse here than on DailyKos sometimes. Take your whining elsewhere. Cruz is standing on principle.

Didn't you embarrass yourself enough on here a few weeks ago with your uncalled-for attack on Gunny?

Christian Liberty
09-25-2013, 11:19 AM
I'm not sure how you define "controlled opposition." I honestly think the fact that Ted Cruz's first love is Israel should be painfully obvious to everyone at this point. he's not even trying to hide it.

He might well be a consistent man who believes everything he says, but I still believe the establishment will use him to kill Rand.

BTW: I'm all for Cruz, Paul, or anyone else doing whatever they can to shut down Obamacare. I'll cheer them on when they do good stuff. But I wouldn't vote for someone like Cruz, and I don't think he's an ally overall. He's against us on foreign policy. Not just a little less "extreme" (If you can call it that) than Rand, but actively opposed to us and what we stand for. So no, he's not an ally. As such, I voted "controlled op."

Ender
09-25-2013, 11:20 AM
I'm saving this thread so I can show everybody in a few months or years how ridiculous you all sound.

You anti-conspiracy theorist people haven't got a clue how things work and you put words in our mouths that don't make any sense.

brandon, for example, may have been exaggerating but said that Ted Cruz would have to be a reptilian in order for him to be controlled opposition. It really shows how little all of you understand the concept of what controlled opposition actually is.

If Ted Cruz is the real deal, the establishment will not help to prop him up.

If Ted Cruz is controlled opposition, then the establishment will help to prop him up.

It's really that simple. If Ted Cruz ever does something the establishment REALLY doesn't like, they have ways of dropping him off the map just like the rest of the controlled opposition, you people don't even know what the term means.

Yep.

Pretty much 99.9% of all politicians are under the Thumb.

If some wake-up and begin to work in opposition, well...... look what happened to Kennedy. If they can easily be perceived by the public as cranky, kooky, old men, then the MSM goes that route- such as Ron Paul.

This is The Matrix and if you do not perceive that you are living in the Machine, what the hell are you doing here?

Todd
09-25-2013, 11:21 AM
I don't know. Time will tell. Right now though, he is an ally to Rand on many things.

unfortunately biased poll has no option for this answer.

dannno
09-25-2013, 11:22 AM
Fucking liberals - worse here than on DailyKos sometimes. Take your whining elsewhere. Cruz is standing on principle.

In 2000 Bush Jr. campaigned on a humble foreign policy, he was standing on principle so I guess I should have voted for him!!

Christian Liberty
09-25-2013, 11:23 AM
Didn't you embarrass yourself enough on here a few weeks ago with your uncalled-for attack on Gunny?

I suspect that he and the other rabid Cruz defenders are controlled op themselves, in fact, I think its more likely that some of them are than that Cruz himself is (I really think Cruz is just the dream candidate for a typical evangelical conservative, namely, full of laughable ideological contradictions. Ted Cruz himself may actually believe all of them. But it doesn't matter. They'll still use him.

All that said, the more loudly defensive of Cruz that someone is, and the more they attack the anti-Cruz people, the more I suspect they themselves are not pro-liberty. Ron Paul may have endorsed Cruz, but if I told him that I couldn't support him and explained why, I SERIOUSLY doubt he'd accuse me of being a liberal:p

cajuncocoa
09-25-2013, 11:24 AM
I suspect that he and the other rabid Cruz defenders are controlled op themselves
Duh!

Ender
09-25-2013, 11:34 AM
And I've got to spread some rep around before giving it to Danno again. ;)

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 11:37 AM
Didn't you embarrass yourself enough on here a few weeks ago with your uncalled-for attack on Gunny?

I stand by my statement. Not embarrassed by what I said at all.

Haven't you embarrassed yourself by your daily barrage of asinine statements?

PaleoPaul
09-25-2013, 11:38 AM
In 2000 Bush Jr. campaigned on a humble foreign policy, he was standing on principle so I guess I should have voted for him!!
The major difference being that he espoused beliefs and policies that were NOT in line with liberty or conservative principles.

Deborah K
09-25-2013, 11:49 AM
I'm not voting in this poll until I understand why he voted for cloture. He said this a couple days ago:


And I'll tell you, any vote for cloture, any vote to allow Harry Reid to add funding for ObamaCare with just a 51-vote threshold, a vote for cloture is a vote for ObamaCare. And I think Senate Republicans are going to stand side by side with Speaker Boehner and House Republicans listening to the people and stopping this train wreck that is ObamaCare.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/09/22/cruz_a_vote_for_cloture_is_a_vote_for_obamacare.ht ml

Christian Liberty
09-25-2013, 11:52 AM
I stand by my statement. Not embarrassed by what I said at all.

Haven't you embarrassed yourself by your daily barrage of asinine statements?

At least Cajun actually cares about liberty.

cajuncocoa
09-25-2013, 11:56 AM
I stand by my statement. Not embarrassed by what I said at all.

Haven't you embarrassed yourself by your daily barrage of asinine statements?

Such as?


At least Cajun actually cares about liberty.

Yes, I do...thank you for saying that. CaptLou only cares about the Republican Party.

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 12:03 PM
CaptLou only cares about the Republican Party.

I do: Rand, Amash, Massie, Cruz, Sanford, Labrador, Lee, et al - all members of the Republican Party. I don't care about the LP, the Dems or any other party. I don't isolate myself into some bubble where I refuse to recognize the contributions of allies. In that sense, I am a political activist working in the GOP - you are someone posting nonsense on a web forum with a cat avatar.

Cajun, your opinions of me, and frankly any opinion you spout here means nothing to me. So just fuck off and leave the discussion to those that can actually contribute something of substance.

Christian Liberty
09-25-2013, 12:15 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/reputation/reputation_neg.png Go fuck yourself - your opinions are worthless

Yeah, you're totally going to convince me with that kind of rhetoric:rolleyes:

You're more hostile than I am, and that's honestly saying a lot. I can get very bitter but even I'm not as mindlessly cruel as you are.

Cajuncocoa gets it right again:


Yes, I do...thank you for saying that. CaptLou only cares about the Republican Party.

I owe you a +rep.

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 12:17 PM
Yeah, you're totally going to convince me with that kind of rhetoric:rolleyes.

I have no desire to convince you of anything. You read the scriptures, look up Matthew 10:14. It's applicable to folks like yourself.

TruckinMike
09-25-2013, 12:17 PM
Rand is more of a liberty candidate than he appears to be, while Cruz is more of a traitor than he appears to be. The two are mirror images of each other.

Christian Liberty
09-25-2013, 12:18 PM
I do: Rand, Amash, Massie, Cruz, Sanford, Labrador, Lee, et al - all members of the Republican Party. I don't care about the LP, the Dems or any other party. I don't isolate myself into some bubble where I refuse to recognize the contributions of allies. In that sense, I am a political activist working in the GOP - you are someone posting nonsense on a web forum with a cat avatar.

Cajun, your opinions of me, and frankly any opinion you spout here means nothing to me. So just fuck off and leave the discussion to those that can actually contribute something of substance.

I don't think Cajun has a problem with everyone in the Republican Party. That would mean she has a problem with Ron Paul, and I know from talking to her that she doesn't. Seeing as she does reluctantly support Rand, and Amash, Sanford, and Massie are much better than Rand, I'm sure she supports them too. She's probably written off Mike Lee, and while I haven't seen enough from him to do so, his comments about Snowden were disturbing. I honestly don't know who Labrador is. I'd call Ted Cruz a snake but he's honestly not even hiding. He's been very vocal about his beating of the war drums.

I don't know what your problem here is. You seem to hate everyone who isn't a hard pragmatist. Which honestly, shows that you yourself don't belong in the liberty movement. Utilitarianism =/= liberty.

specsaregood
09-25-2013, 12:18 PM
I get paid $250/day by the GOP to sit at home and post on rpfs and other forums.

eleganz
09-25-2013, 12:19 PM
Ted Cruz did 9/11.

Christian Liberty
09-25-2013, 12:20 PM
I have no desire to convince you of anything. You read the scriptures, look up Matthew 10:14. It's applicable to folks like yourself.

Man, I'd love to see Sola rip this post apart, but I'll just do it myself. That passage is talking about preaching the GOSPEL. Not your little idiotic tirade.

That you find the Republican Party more worthwhile than people like myself or Cajun says more about you than it does about us.


Rand is more of a liberty candidate than he appears to be, while Cruz is more of a traitor than he appears to be. The two are mirror images of each other.

I hope you're right about Rand, but I'm expecting to get what I see at absolute best, regardless of what he may personally believe in his heart. Even if he does really stand right there with Ron Paul in his heart, he's still going to rule like a moderate because he's running as a moderate.

Ted Cruz, on the other hand, will almost certainly rule like GWB if he gets into the White House. That I was 5 years old when GWB ran in 2000, yet I see the similarities between him and Ted Cruz, while others here who are older do not, is telling.

cajuncocoa
09-25-2013, 12:22 PM
I do: Rand, Amash, Massie, Cruz, Sanford, Labrador, Lee, et al - all members of the Republican Party. I don't care about the LP, the Dems or any other party. I don't isolate myself into some bubble where I refuse to recognize the contributions of allies. In that sense, I am a political activist working in the GOP - you are someone posting nonsense on a web forum with a cat avatar.

Cajun, your opinions of me, and frankly any opinion you spout here means nothing to me. So just fuck off and leave the discussion to those that can actually contribute something of substance.

I'm not going anywhere, so you can just go fuck off yourself.

Christian Liberty
09-25-2013, 12:24 PM
I'm curious how many here would refuse to vote for Cruz if he was the GOP nominee, and how many would only vote for him with a lot of reluctance.

I think those two categories would likely cover 2/3rds of the Ron Paul movement.

cajuncocoa
09-25-2013, 12:24 PM
I don't think Cajun has a problem with everyone in the Republican Party. That would mean she has a problem with Ron Paul, and I know from talking to her that she doesn't. Seeing as she does reluctantly support Rand, and Amash, Sanford, and Massie are much better than Rand, I'm sure she supports them too. She's probably written off Mike Lee, and while I haven't seen enough from him to do so, his comments about Snowden were disturbing. I honestly don't know who Labrador is. I'd call Ted Cruz a snake but he's honestly not even hiding. He's been very vocal about his beating of the war drums.

I don't know what your problem here is. You seem to hate everyone who isn't a hard pragmatist. Which honestly, shows that you yourself don't belong in the liberty movement. Utilitarianism =/= liberty.

I support Rand, Amash, and Massie. Not Sanford. That guy's a bit creepy. It's possible I could support Lee, but I need to know more.

Don't worry about CaptLou....no one who is a real liberty activist puts much stock into what he says. We know he's a GOP shill.

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 12:24 PM
I don't know what your problem here is. You seem to hate everyone who isn't a hard pragmatist. Which honestly, shows that you yourself don't belong in the liberty movement. Utilitarianism =/= liberty.

Rand is a pragmatist. I have no patience for those, like yourself, who do nothing but find things to criticize and throw darts at those who are doing things to advance our agenda. Who want a "liberty movement" that consists of no one, because with few exceptions, you have pretty much written off everyone who is working within this movement to bring the concepts to the mainstream. Rand, Massie and Amash do not operate in that manner, so maybe you should learn something from how they speak and act.

If Cruz was the evil man you paint him to be, then why did Amash take time from his day to show his support in the Senate Chamber?

cajuncocoa
09-25-2013, 12:25 PM
Yeah, you're totally going to convince me with that kind of rhetoric:rolleyes:

You're more hostile than I am, and that's honestly saying a lot. I can get very bitter but even I'm not as mindlessly cruel as you are.

Cajuncocoa gets it right again:



I owe you a +rep.Look like I owe you another, too. :)

kahless
09-25-2013, 12:33 PM
It seemed to me from the start {of him being in the media spotlight this year} that Cruz was the establishments palatable alternative to Rand. I have no idea if he is "controlled opposition". The poll options are too limited. There should be a "I don't know" option.

Rubio appears to me as a guy that seeks what to do from his handlers that I assume would make him controlled opposition. Cruz however might be his own man appealing to the establishment, IDK.

Christian Liberty
09-25-2013, 12:35 PM
Rand is a pragmatist. I have no patience for those, like yourself, who do nothing but find things to criticize and throw darts at those who are doing things to advance our agenda. Who want a "liberty movement" that consists of no one, because with few exceptions, you have pretty much written off everyone who is working within this movement to bring the concepts to the mainstream. Rand, Massie and Amash do not operate in that manner, so maybe you should learn something from how they speak and act.

If Cruz was the evil man you paint him to be, then why did Amash take time from his day to show his support in the Senate Chamber?

I only expect so much from politicians. And I haven't written off a single person in the liberty movement. I've written off wannabe tyrants who masquerade as libertarians. I don't trust Ted Cruz, and I don't believe you are sincerely on our side either.

I really don't care about winning politically, honestly. Without education it won't matter.

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 12:36 PM
It seemed to me from the start that Cruz was the establishments palatable alternative to Rand. I have no idea if he is "controlled opposition". The poll options are too limited. There should be a "I don't know" option.

Rubio seems to have handlers that I assume would make him controlled opposition. Cruz however might be his own man appealing to the establishment, IDK.


From the start? Cruz ran against the establishment candidate, was endorse by the Pauls and related groups. How could he then have been "the establishments palatable alternative to Rand?"

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 12:37 PM
I only expect so much from politicians. And I haven't written off a single person in the liberty movement. I've written off wannabe tyrants who masquerade as libertarians. I don't trust Ted Cruz, and I don't believe you are sincerely on our side either.

I really don't care about winning politically, honestly. Without education it won't matter.

I am not on your side and wouldn't want to be. Your side is banging their head against the wall. My side is not, we are making progress and moving the ball down field.

shane77m
09-25-2013, 12:38 PM
When someone comes up with someone who they know for a fact is controlled-op, let me know. I can't figure out who is and who isn't.

kahless
09-25-2013, 12:38 PM
From the start? Cruz ran against the establishment candidate, was endorse by the Pauls and related groups. How could he then have been "the establishments palatable alternative to Rand?"

"From the start", I meant from the start of him being in the media spotlight this year.

Christian Liberty
09-25-2013, 12:39 PM
I support Rand, Amash, and Massie. Not Sanford. That guy's a bit creepy. It's possible I could support Lee, but I need to know more.


I don't know much about Lee either. I give people the benefit of the doubt until I know otherwise.

Sanford's personal life was a mess, and I can understand why that's a turn off for some. But, from what I've heard, he's pretty much right in line with Ron Paul on the issues. If it was somebody borderline like Mike Lee, maybe the fact that he was an adulterer might make the difference (character is important to me) but I have a hard time turing up what might as well be the next Ron Paul because of his personal life.



Don't worry about CaptLou....no one who is a real liberty activist puts much stock into what he says. We know he's a GOP shill.

Don't worry, I'm not.

Christian Liberty
09-25-2013, 12:41 PM
I am not on your side and wouldn't want to be. Your side is banging their head against the wall. My side is not, we are making progress and moving the ball down field.

You're right, you are moving the ball down the field, towards statism and warmongering. Way to go.




When someone comes up with someone who they know for a fact is controlled-op, let me know. I can't figure out who is and who isn't.

I don't know if he's sincere or not. What I do know is what he says he believes is evil.

And I think the arguments that Ted Cruz is secretly a pure libertarian in hiding are even weaker than the arguments saying the same about Rand.

cajuncocoa
09-25-2013, 12:41 PM
I don't know much about Lee either. I give people the benefit of the doubt until I know otherwise.

Sanford's personal life was a mess, and I can understand why that's a turn off for some. But, from what I've heard, he's pretty much right in line with Ron Paul on the issues. If it was somebody borderline like Mike Lee, maybe the fact that he was an adulterer might make the difference (character is important to me) but I have a hard time turing up what might as well be the next Ron Paul because of his personal life.


The way someone behaves in his/her personal life is an indication of character. It tells you how much you can trust that person.

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 12:42 PM
You're right, you are moving the ball down the field, towards statism and warmongering. Way to go..

You got it - that's my goal. Socialize medicine and troops quartered in every home in the world. :rolleyes:

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 12:43 PM
The way someone behaves in his/her personal life is an indication of character. It tells you how much you can trust that person.

I could care less who he fucked as long as he votes the right way.

mosquitobite
09-25-2013, 12:44 PM
Sorry, but if the MSM has a love affair for you, you are not a friend of liberty. The fourth estate is bought and paid for and won't push someone who might actually move the pendulum in liberty's directn.

specsaregood
09-25-2013, 12:47 PM
Sorry, but if the MSM has a love affair for you, you are not a friend of liberty. The fourth estate is bought and paid for and won't push someone who might actually move the pendulum in liberty's directn.

So cruz must not be controlled op, because I've seen plenty of hate from the MSM in his direction.

Christian Liberty
09-25-2013, 12:47 PM
The way someone behaves in his/her personal life is an indication of character. It tells you how much you can trust that person.

I understand this view, and I respect it a lot more than I used to. Even still, based on past history, I think we can trust Sanford politically. Not personally, but politically. Yeah, that's bad, but I'd still vote for him if I lived in SC.

I can understand why you feel differently.

You got it - that's my goal. Socialize medicine and troops quartered in every home in the world. :rolleyes:

Maybe that's not your goal but you're supporting people who do.


I could care less who he fucked as long as he votes the right way.

I have to agree with this, even though it makes me incredibly sad to agree with you on any issue at all...

VoluntaryAmerican
09-25-2013, 12:49 PM
https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-ash1/c25.2.360.360/s160x160/998213_589586524427488_623187525_n.jpg (https://www.facebook.com/SenatorRandPaul)

Senator Rand Paul: (https://www.facebook.com/SenatorRandPaul)



Senator Cruz still going! I'm on my way back to help him out this morning. Tune in to hear more about #MakeDCListen

So what? Rand also endorsed Christie. It doesn't change the reasoning that people here have every right to be suspicious of Cruz.

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 12:52 PM
Maybe that's not your goal but you're supporting people who do.

Maybe in your convoluted, immature and inexperienced opinion. I gave the short list of who I support but here is the bigger list: Amash, Broun, Cruz, Goehmert, Jones, Labrador, Lee, Massie, McClintock, Mulvaney, Rand, Sanford, Stockman and Yoho. Those are the guys on the front lines and most of the time they vote exactly how I would have voted on the legislation. If those folks are "statists and warmongers" to you then c'est la vie.

donnay
09-25-2013, 12:54 PM
Look like I owe you another, too. :)


Gotcha covered.

PaleoPaul
09-25-2013, 12:55 PM
So what? Rand also endorsed Christie. It doesn't change the reasoning that people here have every right to be suspicious of Cruz.
I believe the key point you're missing here is that RON Paul endorsed Cruz. The Dear Old Dad doesn't just go around handing out his endorsements as if they were candy bars. You have to EARN Dr. Paul's endorsement.

TruckinMike
09-25-2013, 01:10 PM
I believe the key point you're missing here is that RON Paul endorsed Cruz. The Dear Old Dad doesn't just go around handing out his endorsements as if they were candy bars. You have to EARN Dr. Paul's endorsement. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you forgot the /SARC tag.

if not
then

Yea, you're right, especially when he endorsed Lamar (stasi) Smith of Texas. /sarc

Ron's endorsements are as loose as a New Orleans whore during Mardi gras!

Christian Liberty
09-25-2013, 01:15 PM
I believe the key point you're missing here is that RON Paul endorsed Cruz. The Dear Old Dad doesn't just go around handing out his endorsements as if they were candy bars. You have to EARN Dr. Paul's endorsement.

Ron Paul has made plenty of stupid endorsements, IMO.

cajuncocoa
09-25-2013, 01:16 PM
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you forgot the /SARC tag.

if not
then

Yea, you're right, especially when he endorsed Lamar (stasi) Smith of Texas. /sarc

Ron's endorsements are as loose as a New Orleans whore during Mardi gras!
So proud of my hometown at times like this :rolleyes:

ClydeCoulter
09-25-2013, 01:19 PM
You know, used to be that the "line of division" was a broad stroke. Today it is just getting finer, like a .5mm lead pencil, so that it's still division, but just more refined and, you know, intelligent. /sarc

amy31416
09-25-2013, 01:39 PM
Haven't been following this "filibuster" closely, but did Cruz just do this to try to defund Obamacare, then turn around and vote to fund it?


Washington (CNN) -- He spent more than 21 straight hours railing against any government funding for Obamacare. Then Republican Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas joined the other 99 senators from both parties in voting Wednesday to move ahead on a spending plan expected to do just that.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/25/politics/shutdown-showdown/

People here support that? I'm so confused.....

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 01:42 PM
Haven't been following this "filibuster" closely, but did Cruz just do this to try to defund Obamacare, then turn around and vote to fund it

No the vote in question is the cloture vote which is I believe tomorrow or Friday. That is the one where 41 GOP votes are needed. Today's vote was just to proceed with debate. The CNN reporter has no fucking clue what he/she is talking about.

Carlybee
09-25-2013, 01:46 PM
From the start? Cruz ran against the establishment candidate, was endorse by the Pauls and related groups. How could he then have been "the establishments palatable alternative to Rand?"

A. He supports Israel completely
B. He is more of a hawk than Rand
C. He has establishment connections (worked on Bush campaign)
D. The Tea Party may have been a stepping stone

amy31416
09-25-2013, 01:47 PM
No the vote in question is the cloture vote which is I believe tomorrow or Friday. That is the one where 41 GOP votes are needed. Today's vote was just to proceed with debate. The CNN reporter has no fucking clue what he/she is talking about.

I effing HATE the media. Thanks for clarifying.

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 01:56 PM
I effing HATE the media. Thanks for clarifying.

Lazy reporting. Senate rules are as clear as mud, but a little research would have clarified. Hell, Cruz talked about this many times during the speech so it's not like this is something secret. It was even covered in the last hour, which you would assume someone writing about the speech would have watched.

economics102
09-25-2013, 01:58 PM
A. He supports Israel completely
B. He is more of a hawk than Rand
C. He has establishment connections (worked on Bush campaign)
D. The Tea Party may have been a stepping stone

E. His wife is an executive at Goldman Sachs.

Having said that, I'm still undecided on this one.

I think the fact that he has tried to gain attention for himself by fighting for various issues and hasn't ruled out a presidential run are not good reasons to assume he's "controlled opposition" or not an ally of ours.

Said differently: if we DID 100% trust Cruz the way we trust Rand, I don't think we'd see it as a bad thing that we have two liberty-leaning senators with presidential potential.

Compare him to Mike Lee. Mike Lee has largely stayed in the background and supported Rand (and Cruz), but the net result is that Mike Lee is not a significant political force and most people don't even know who he is. If Cruz had stayed in the background like Mike Lee, we'd probably trust him more, but he'd also be far less effective in our fight.

So, I say jury is still out on Ted Cruz. I don't entirely trust him but I have to concede he's been shooting straight so far and has been a strong ally for this movement.

amy31416
09-25-2013, 02:03 PM
Lazy reporting. Senate rules are as clear as mud, but a little research would have clarified. Hell, Cruz talked about this many times during the speech so it's not like this is something secret. It was even covered in the last hour, which you would assume someone writing about the speech would have watched.

Yeah. Senate rules are one of those things that I've never taken the time to really learn, probably should one of these days.

CaptLouAlbano
09-25-2013, 02:07 PM
Yeah. Senate rules are one of those things that I've never taken the time to really learn, probably should one of these days.

Probably just easier to know how to look them up. Seems like the change them all the time anyway. If the GOP takes the Senate in 2014 there will be some rule changes I am sure.

Tywysog Cymru
09-25-2013, 02:24 PM
Cruz's positions might evolve to become less interventionist over time as war is becoming much less popular than a decade ago.

Bastiat's The Law
09-25-2013, 03:32 PM
So he's "banker" because his wife worked for GS, and it wasn't even that lucrative of a position?

That's like saying I'd be a NWO tool because I may have dated a man that ate lunch with the head of the CFR one time.

It's crazy talk. Let's not forget that Ron Paul got campaign donations from GS, it was probably the janitor working there, but still a GS employee...cower in fear now! :eek:

Bastiat's The Law
09-25-2013, 03:35 PM
The fact is, certain people on this forum are much more prone to believe baseless conspiracy theories. I take their beliefs with a grain of salt.

And a belly laugh.

specsaregood
09-25-2013, 03:37 PM
Probably just easier to know how to look them up. Seems like the change them all the time anyway. If the GOP takes the Senate in 2014 there will be some rule changes I am sure.

Please kindly teach me/us how to look them up them. I'd searched around in the past and didn't really turn up anything.

Bastiat's The Law
09-25-2013, 03:41 PM
Ted Cruz did 9/11.

I saw him moonlighting as a contractor painting thermite on the walls.

Carlybee
09-25-2013, 03:43 PM
It's crazy talk. Let's not forget that Ron Paul got campaign donations from GS, it was probably the janitor working there, but still a GS employee...cower in fear now! :eek:

She's a VP in private wealth management..hedge funds,etc. She is hardly a janitor.

Carlybee
09-25-2013, 03:47 PM
Cruz is too perfect. He went to the right school, married the right girl, got the right jobs, made the right connections, and made all the right moves to be the perfect politician. Politician. Not Statesman. Time will tell. Judging by some of the lovefest going on should we look forward to the Ted Cruz forum soon?

ClydeCoulter
09-25-2013, 03:54 PM
Where's the option for "He's a Senator that sometimes agrees with me".

amy31416
09-25-2013, 06:38 PM
Probably just easier to know how to look them up. Seems like the change them all the time anyway. If the GOP takes the Senate in 2014 there will be some rule changes I am sure.

Great. So what little I know is probably outdated. pffffffffffffft.

NorfolkPCSolutions
09-25-2013, 06:53 PM
He's a pretty cool guy. I'll let him be Veep if he learns to STFU and not do this

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h219/pjcomix/blog/Joe-Biden-wandering-hand-1.jpg

The bar is set low by his predecessor.

Just think...Plugs wants to be the big cheese, and no one's talking about him...betcha TPTB would love to run him against Cruz. Not Rand, though. No fucking way. They's afeared of 'im.

Christian Liberty
09-25-2013, 06:55 PM
Cruz's positions might evolve to become less interventionist over time as war is becoming much less popular than a decade ago.

That NEVER happens. Politicians always get worse on this issues, and the stupid sheep swallow it because of "lesser of two evils" type thinking. And the minority of Republicans that absolutely love and adore GWB...

I'm willing to bet Ted gets MORE interventionist.

Christian Liberty
09-25-2013, 06:56 PM
Cruz is too perfect. He went to the right school, married the right girl, got the right jobs, made the right connections, and made all the right moves to be the perfect politician. Politician. Not Statesman. Time will tell. Judging by some of the lovefest going on should we look forward to the Ted Cruz forum soon?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I support a Ted Cruz subforum. In the all-new "Wolves in sheep's clothing" section.

NoOneButPaul
09-25-2013, 07:45 PM
Dont trust him yet.

cajuncocoa
09-25-2013, 08:26 PM
Cruz is too perfect. He went to the right school, married the right girl, got the right jobs, made the right connections, and made all the right moves to be the perfect politician. Politician. Not Statesman. Time will tell. Judging by some of the lovefest going on should we look forward to the Ted Cruz forum soon?
When someone has that many perfect things falling into place, I always wonder what's being set up behind the scenes. It's almost like his life is not his own. To whom will he owe, and how much, for all of this perfection?

RickyJ
09-25-2013, 08:50 PM
Why are RPFers conspiracy theorists about everything? We can't have a single ally without him or her being criticized of being some sort of double agent trying to trick us. I mean COME ON PEOPLE, REALLY?

Really though I think this is some sort of bizarre jealousy over Cruz speaking longer than Rand...

I think it has a lot more to do with Cruz wanting to use the military in an assault on Syria to get their chemical weapons than any jealousy of him speaking longer than Rand did. I find it very strange you would even say that.

Christian Liberty
09-25-2013, 08:52 PM
I think it has a lot more to do with Cruz wanting to use the military in an assault on Syria to get their chemical weapons than any jealousy of him speaking longer than Rand did. I find it very strange you would even say that.

Most of them are trying to sabotage the liberty movement. That's the bottom line. I don't see how anyone could say anything that stupid with sincerity.

RickyJ
09-25-2013, 08:53 PM
The vote happens at 1pm whatever so he's not filibustering in reality

So this was all for show? He wasn't blocking one thing with his long speech? Wow!

cajuncocoa
09-25-2013, 09:23 PM
I think it has a lot more to do with Cruz wanting to use the military in an assault on Syria to get their chemical weapons than any jealousy of him speaking longer than Rand did. I find it very strange you would even say that.

^^this.

KingNothing
09-26-2013, 04:41 AM
This thread is a perfect example of why even a lot of people that like or respect Ron and Rand; will go out of their way to say they despise their supporters. Oh, and accuse us of that whole cult of personality thing too.


For smart people, we are tremendously stupid.

KingNothing
09-26-2013, 04:44 AM
When someone has that many perfect things falling into place, I always wonder what's being set up behind the scenes. It's almost like his life is not his own. To whom will he owe, and how much, for all of this perfection?


And what of the doctors Paul, with their careers, wealth, and families? Oh they worked for it. Cruz was just handed everything?

ClydeCoulter
09-26-2013, 05:26 AM
So this was all for show? He wasn't blocking one thing with his long speech? Wow!

His speech was to bring to light that the Republicans can block "cloture to end debate" (on Fri?), because it requires 3/5 (or 60 votes), until Reid agrees to 3/5 on amendments also (instead of 51 simple majority, which is what Reid wants so that Democrats can pass his "fund ObamaCare" amendment).

Also, by passing cloture (with help of republicans) the republicans can then vote against the amendment and look good back home ("cover vote") but the amendment will pass because no republican is required with a simple majority of 51 (instead of 3/5 or 60).

edit: This has also been explained as "41 votes against 'cloture to end debate' can block a vote", filibuster, preventing a vote from taking place. This, since cloture to end debate requires 3/5, or 60, votes.

CaptLouAlbano
09-26-2013, 05:38 AM
His speech was to bring to light that the Republicans can block "cloture to end debate" (on Fri?), because it requires 3/5 (or 60 votes), until Reid agrees to 3/5 on amendments also (instead of 51 simple majority, which is what Reid wants so that Democrats can pass his "fund ObamaCare" amendment).

Also, by passing cloture (with help of republicans) the republicans can then vote against the amendment and look good back home ("cover vote") but the amendment will pass because no republican is required with a simple majority of 51 (instead of 3/5 or 60).

This needs to be said apparently 1000 times on here, because oddly people who are interested in politics are seemingly clueless as to what is going on right now.

Furthermore, if the cloture vote passes with 60 votes, Reid (as you said) will offer ONE amendment to the House CR and that amendment will restore funding to Obamacare in the House bill. If the cloture vote passes, then Reid will only need 51 votes for that amendment to pass. There will be no other amendments offered. The bill then will go back to the House with Obamacare funding restored and the House will have to vote on that bill. If that is the case, then it can very easily be spun that if the GOP House members do not vote for the bill then they are voting to shut down the government.

Conversely, if Cruz is successful in his effort and 41 GOP Senators vote "No" on cloture, then the Reid Amendment will need 60 votes to pass. It will fail if those same 41 Senators vote "No" on the amendment. At that point the bill (without Obamacare funding) will be voted on by the Senate, and the onus is on the Democrats in the Senate to either pass the bill or force a gov't shutdown.

So, let's say Cruz is successful and the second scenario takes place. The Dems reluctantly pass the bill and it goes on Obama's desk without Obamacare funding. Obama will then have to sign the bill to keep the gov't open, or if he vetos it then Obama is the one who shut down the gov't.

See how this works folks?

ClydeCoulter
09-26-2013, 05:45 AM
Can someone explain the process of Amendments and the power Reid has AFTER "cloture to end debate" passes? This is where I'm fuzzy, since debate has ended.

cajuncocoa
09-26-2013, 06:00 AM
And what of the doctors Paul, with their careers, wealth, and families? Oh they worked for it. Cruz was just handed everything?

That's what was implied by Carlybee's comment...that things came pretty easily for Mr. Cruz. I don't live in Texas, so I'm not as familiar as Carlybee would be about Mr. Cruz and his personal background.

ClydeCoulter
09-26-2013, 06:01 AM
This from Wiki:


After cloture has been invoked, the following restrictions apply:

* No more than thirty hours of debate may occur.[14]
* No Senator may speak for more than one hour.
* No amendments may be moved unless they were filed on the day in between the presentation of the petition and the actual cloture vote.
* All amendments must be relevant to the debate.
* Certain procedural motions are not permissible.
* The presiding officer gains additional power in controlling debate.
* No other matters may be considered until the question upon which cloture was invoked is disposed of.

ClydeCoulter
09-26-2013, 06:08 AM
This needs to be said apparently 1000 times on here, because oddly people who are interested in politics are seemingly clueless as to what is going on right now.

Furthermore, if the cloture vote passes with 60 votes, Reid (as you said) will offer ONE amendment to the House CR and that amendment will restore funding to Obamacare in the House bill. If the cloture vote passes, then Reid will only need 51 votes for that amendment to pass. There will be no other amendments offered. The bill then will go back to the House with Obamacare funding restored and the House will have to vote on that bill. If that is the case, then it can very easily be spun that if the GOP House members do not vote for the bill then they are voting to shut down the government.

Conversely, if Cruz is successful in his effort and 41 GOP Senators vote "No" on cloture, then the Reid Amendment will need 60 votes to pass. It will fail if those same 41 Senators vote "No" on the amendment. At that point the bill (without Obamacare funding) will be voted on by the Senate, and the onus is on the Democrats in the Senate to either pass the bill or force a gov't shutdown.

So, let's say Cruz is successful and the second scenario takes place. The Dems reluctantly pass the bill and it goes on Obama's desk without Obamacare funding. Obama will then have to sign the bill to keep the gov't open, or if he vetos it then Obama is the one who shut down the gov't.

See how this works folks?

Thank you :)

specsaregood
09-26-2013, 06:14 AM
This needs to be said apparently 1000 times on here, because oddly people who are interested in politics are seemingly clueless as to what is going on right now.

Furthermore, if the cloture vote passes with 60 votes, Reid (as you said) will offer ONE amendment to the House CR and that amendment will restore funding to Obamacare in the House bill. If the cloture vote passes, then Reid will only need 51 votes for that amendment to pass. There will be no other amendments offered. The bill then will go back to the House with Obamacare funding restored and the House will have to vote on that bill. If that is the case, then it can very easily be spun that if the GOP House members do not vote for the bill then they are voting to shut down the government.

Conversely, if Cruz is successful in his effort and 41 GOP Senators vote "No" on cloture, then the Reid Amendment will need 60 votes to pass. It will fail if those same 41 Senators vote "No" on the amendment. At that point the bill (without Obamacare funding) will be voted on by the Senate, and the onus is on the Democrats in the Senate to either pass the bill or force a gov't shutdown.

So, let's say Cruz is successful and the second scenario takes place. The Dems reluctantly pass the bill and it goes on Obama's desk without Obamacare funding. Obama will then have to sign the bill to keep the gov't open, or if he vetos it then Obama is the one who shut down the gov't.

See how this works folks?

But at some point, in order for the funding bill to pass they have to invoke cloture right? Whats to stop Reid from adding his amendment then?

CaptLouAlbano
09-26-2013, 06:21 AM
Can someone explain the process of Amendments and the power Reid has AFTER "cloture to end debate" passes? This is where I'm fuzzy, since debate has ended.

This might help: http://www.senate.gov/CRSReports/crs-publish.cfm?pid=%26%2A2%3C4Q%3C%3B%3B%0A

As I understand it, once cloture is passed, only amendments that have been previously submitted can be considered. And Reid, as the majority leader, can decide whether or not an amendment will be considered. The Reid amendment which restores funding is the only amendment that has been submitted to the best of my knowledge. And again, as I understand it, the amendment can pass by 51 votes if cloture passes, but would need 60 votes without cloture.

CaptLouAlbano
09-26-2013, 06:23 AM
But at some point, in order for the funding bill to pass they have to invoke cloture right? Whats to stop Reid from adding his amendment then?

I'm a little fuzzy on this, but I believe without cloture the amendment would need 60 votes to pass. I looked this up on the senate site: cloture - The only procedure by which the Senate can vote to place a time limit on consideration of a bill or other matter, and thereby overcome a filibuster. Under the cloture rule (Rule XXII), the Senate may limit consideration of a pending matter to 30 additional hours, but only by vote of three-fifths of the full Senate, normally 60 votes.

ClydeCoulter
09-26-2013, 06:25 AM
But at some point, in order for the funding bill to pass they have to invoke cloture right? Whats to stop Reid from adding his amendment then?

I think that a vote can proceed if there is no further debate. In other words, if the republicans want to continue debate, it can be stopped by filing for cloture and that cloture passing (The cloture request is ignored for 1 day and then voted on after the first hour).

CaptLouAlbano
09-26-2013, 06:26 AM
For reference: http://www.rules.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=RulesOfSenateHome

CaptLouAlbano
09-26-2013, 06:28 AM
I think that a vote can proceed if there is no further debate. In other words, if the republicans want to continue debate, it can be stopped by filing for cloture and that cloture passing (The cloture request is ignored for 1 day and then voted on after the first hour).

More info: http://www.senate.gov/CRSReports/crs-publish.cfm?pid=%270E%2C%2AQLK2%22%40%20%20%0A

ClydeCoulter
09-26-2013, 06:32 AM
It appears that the "Chair" plays an important part AFTER cloture, since only "germane" amendments, which is decided by that chair, may be admitted (if filed between filing of cloture and sometime before the cloture vote...depends on whether a 1st class or 2nd class amendment,etc).

CaptLouAlbano
09-26-2013, 06:37 AM
It appears that the "Chair" plays an important part AFTER cloture, since only "germane" amendments, which is decided by that chair, may be admitted (if filed between filing of cloture and sometime before the cloture vote...depends on whether a 1st class or 2nd class amendment,etc).

Right. This should be lesson for the political neophytes as to the importance of GOP control of both bodies.

specsaregood
09-26-2013, 06:59 AM
I think that a vote can proceed if there is no further debate. In other words, if the republicans want to continue debate, it can be stopped by filing for cloture and that cloture passing (The cloture request is ignored for 1 day and then voted on after the first hour).

I'm no expert; but I would NOT be surprised if there was a way for Reid to add his amendment to the bill and only require 51 votes, no matter what excluding outright refusing to allow the bill to come up for a vote. edit: and I think this is where Rand is at; he understands that and realizes the ONLY way to stop it from happening is to refuse to pass a funding bill of any sort.

PierzStyx
09-26-2013, 07:11 AM
Didn't like the options, but I voted no. I don't think he's controlled opposition, but I also don't think he's some great defender of liberty. I see him as a useful ally on many strategic issues. As with all allies, he will falter and waver at some point and it will probably end up hurting a bit, but the benefit far exceeds the cost, IMO.

I agree with this assessment. I think Cruz is what he claims to be, a Reaganite Conservative. This means in many places he will agree with us. But in some ways, such as funding Israel, he will not. That said he would be a useful ally in defunding everyone but Israel I bet. In all: a good ally but not one of us.

KingNothing
09-26-2013, 10:08 AM
AHHHHH HE MIGHT NOT AGREE WITH US ON EVERY SINGLE ISSUE! HE'S A PLANT! NEW WORLD ORDER BANKING ELITE LIZARD PERSON INSIDE JOBBER!

dannno
09-26-2013, 10:42 AM
AHHHHH HE MIGHT NOT AGREE WITH US ON EVERY SINGLE ISSUE! HE'S A PLANT! NEW WORLD ORDER BANKING ELITE LIZARD PERSON INSIDE JOBBER!

If he gets any money from the military industrial complex based on his views then yes, technically he is a 'plant'. He might not know it, but the military industrial complex is fond of his beliefs and decided to fund his campaigns to help him win elections. Do you not agree that is a valid definition of a plant?

dannno
09-26-2013, 10:43 AM
I just find it hilarious that so many people make fun of people for beliefs that they completely lack any understanding about when they think they know everything.

ClydeCoulter
09-26-2013, 11:32 AM
I'm no expert; but I would NOT be surprised if there was a way for Reid to add his amendment to the bill and only require 51 votes, no matter what excluding outright refusing to allow the bill to come up for a vote. edit: and I think this is where Rand is at; he understands that and realizes the ONLY way to stop it from happening is to refuse to pass a funding bill of any sort.

Yes, the amendment could be brought up now, and it would get debated for days and get filibustered.

Reid is proceeding with a cloture vote which will pass with republican help (need 60), and will bring the amendment up for vote and it will pass (with 51). Any republican that votes for cloture is voting to allow Reid to do this. That's the point. Reid wants to limit debate on the bill and the amendment to 30 hours after the cloture vote passes.

Rand had to decide if he was going to call out those who vote for cloture or not, once Cruz brought it to light.

enhanced_deficit
09-28-2013, 01:46 PM
Having resaerched his character and stances bit more and after seeing his prayer stunt outside White House for cultivating war with Iran, I have improved my view of him. I think Ted Cruz is controlled opposition and a plant like Obama of war mongering neocons.

Shocking that he only prayed for one imprisoned Christian in Iran with press cameras ready with israeli PM's VIP guest beside him but forgot to pray for scores of Christians being persecuted in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Palestine by forces of oppression.

JustinTime
09-28-2013, 02:38 PM
Why are RPFers conspiracy theorists about everything? We can't have a single ally without him or her being criticized of being some sort of double agent trying to trick us. I mean COME ON PEOPLE, REALLY?

Really though I think this is some sort of bizarre jealousy over Cruz speaking longer than Rand...

That's a weakness pro-freedom folks have, we splinter easily and its largely because of things like this thread. I don't see the need to put him in a category. If we look at it that way, everyone will have some bad quality and we will see everyone as an enemy, and there ya go.
Suffice it to say, he is right when he is right, and when he is wrong we should oppose him.

enhanced_deficit
09-28-2013, 02:48 PM
That's a weakness pro-freedom folks have, we splinter easily and its largely because of things like this thread. I don't see the need to put him in a category. If we look at it that way, everyone will have some bad quality and we will see everyone as an enemy, and there ya go.
Suffice it to say, he is right when he is right, and when he is wrong we should oppose him.

Having neoconish Foreign Policy and cultivating warmongering should be caught by a standard purity test. I think that is too major a mole to go undetected. He has a chance to withdraw his calls for foreign interventions/wars and restate his positions as long there is sincere retraction.

ClydeCoulter
09-28-2013, 02:48 PM
That's a weakness pro-freedom folks have, we splinter easily and its largely because of things like this thread. I don't see the need to put him in a category. If we look at it that way, everyone will have some bad quality and we will see everyone as an enemy, and there ya go.
Suffice it to say, he is right when he is right, and when he is wrong we should oppose him.

Yep, total agreement. And the same with Rand or anyone else.

JCDenton0451
09-28-2013, 02:54 PM
So, it looks the RPF community appears to be split on Cruz.

I find it interesting though that all the pro-Israel posters (Rocco, compromise and especially gwax23) voted in support of Cruz. Very interesting.

Aratus
09-28-2013, 08:24 PM
i tried to vote for both possibilities at the same time, and then when
giving ted cruz the benefit of the doubt, things almost split 50/50...as
i cast a pro~ted vote in the poll. i think TC tries to be very sincere.

Brett85
09-28-2013, 08:37 PM
Wow, it's exactly a tie, 50%-50%, 35 votes each.

Aratus
09-28-2013, 08:45 PM
36 to 35 someone had fun when breaking the tie

Miguel
09-28-2013, 08:55 PM
36 to 35 someone had fun when breaking the tie

That would be me :)

ClydeCoulter
09-28-2013, 09:05 PM
Seems like the collective here agrees with me. Don't have a clue, yet :D

enhanced_deficit
09-28-2013, 09:06 PM
To be fair to Cruz, it is possioble that he is not a money pockets/media coverage chasing opportunist and actually ideologically believes in his mideast war momngering and is sincere when he says Obama is too "dovish" - his father is a Christian Zionist Pastor apparently and he may have inherited these tendencies. But what a waste of education if it doesn't teach critical thinking and a person has to be pretty dumb to come out of higher education with such illogical, dogmatic beliefs intact.


That would be me :)

:) This has been a pattern since yesterday.

Aratus
09-28-2013, 09:13 PM
to be fair to both senator rand and senator ted, both being senators... if rand ends up being talked about as the ideological
heir to senator barry goldwater of arizona on the national level, and ted cruz ends up being talked about in the same way
good ole richard milhous nixon is, and in the same grand manner, all 71 of us would end up being very upset. we all tend
to trust rand way more than we do ted, and personally i trust justin amash more often than i do ted cruz, but i do feel this
is the unsaid large and proverbial elephant in the room. ted cruz has yet to define himself totally, he's a total work in progress.

KingNothing
09-28-2013, 09:40 PM
If he gets any money from the military industrial complex based on his views then yes, technically he is a 'plant'. He might not know it, but the military industrial complex is fond of his beliefs and decided to fund his campaigns to help him win elections. Do you not agree that is a valid definition of a plant?



Not even remotely.

KingNothing
09-28-2013, 09:42 PM
Why does he have to be a "plant" or "controlled opposition" and not just someone who "disagrees with us on an issue or two, or maybe even more than that because he isn't a Libertarian/anarchist/minarchist"??

dillo
09-29-2013, 01:19 AM
Controlled opposition as I understand it, doesnt necessarily imply that the person being used is a "plant". I am merely speculating that the old guard will/could use ted cruz to either undermine or split the vote off of Rand Paul. I guess he could be used as a controlled opposition and still be a defender of liberty in my example, so my choices could have been better split.

Cruz's foreign policy really scares me, and foreign policies that are agressive are half the reason our economy is such a mess. The point of this poll really wasn't to demean Ted Cruz, it was to merely speculate about how people that could be potential allies could also be potential headaches with respect to 2016.

dillo
01-10-2014, 09:23 PM
I think with Ted Cruz's recent comments on Colorados marijuana laws this deserves a bump

Travlyr
01-10-2014, 09:37 PM
I think with Ted Cruz's recent comments on Colorados marijuana laws this deserves a bump

It is interesting for certain especially after learning that his wife is a Goldman Sachs girl.

Occam's Banana
01-10-2014, 10:14 PM
I have no idea whether he is "controlled" or not - but if Cruz wants to toss people into cages for violating federal drug laws in states that have explicitly legalized drug use, then he absolutely *is* the "opposition."

NorthCarolinaLiberty
01-10-2014, 10:43 PM
I thought this place had the word "liberty" in it's name. I barely know this Cruz person, and people more in tune are saying he is some defender of liberty??!!

Time to go fuck myself. Holy crap.

Christian Liberty
01-10-2014, 10:50 PM
I thought this place had the word "liberty" in it's name. I barely know this Cruz person, and people more in tune are saying he is some defender of liberty??!!

Time to go fuck myself. Holy crap.

I don't get it, then again, he apparently tricked Ron Paul as well.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
01-10-2014, 11:11 PM
His picture is somewhere on this site. You can tell by just looking at him. Remember the person in your family who snuck half the second layer of miniature peanut cups in the refrigerator while you were sleeping? That's this guy.

dillo
02-01-2016, 08:10 PM
Fair time for a bump

twomp
02-01-2016, 09:11 PM
In 2008, the blue team was tricked by Obama who at the time was speaking out against the way things were being done in Washington. We all know now that it was just an act and he basically turned into the 3rd and 4th term of Bush. Now it's time to Cruz to do the same to the idiots in the GOP. Goldman Sachs (R) vs. Goldman Sachs (D). Its been that way for that past few elections and it looks like its on its way to happening again.