Libertarians owe "national military service" ...

[Occam's Banana]

h/t Karen De Coster @ LRC: http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/libertarians-for-conscription/


Libertarians for Conscription

From Cato, of course. This post at Cato, "The Libertarian Case for National Military Service,“ reads like satire, but alas, it is not. The author actually writes “freedom isn’t free,” and he thinks that libertarians shouldn’t recoil from the notion of mandatory military service because serving your government masters can be a “pillar of freedom” rather than a coercive and unjust oppression.

Here's the article to which De Coster refers: http://www.cato-unbound.org/2013/09/09/pascal-emmanuel-gobry/libertarian-case-national-military-service

Here are just a few of the putridities to be found therein:


Libertarians think it’s legitimate for the state to use violence to take people’s money.

[Libertarians] think it’s legitimate for the state to mandate children to be educated for approximately twelve years of their life.

[L]ibertarians are actually fine with the state taking people’s money and time and work if there is a sufficiently compelling interest.

Who is Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry, you ask? From http://www.cato-unbound.org/contributors/pascal-emmanuel-gobry

Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry is the founder of Noosphere (http://noosphere.io/), a social media market research firm. He is also a contributor at Forbes (http://blogs.forbes.com/pascalemmanuelgobry) and a business and economics columnist at Atlantico (http://www.atlantico.fr/users/pascal-emmanuel-gobry).

He was formerly with Business Insider, where he co-created BI Intelligence, the company’s market research service. He also covered the technology business in Europe and globally. Gobry is a lecturer at HEC Paris business school and a mentor at startup accelerator programs SeedCamp and Le Camping. His writing has appeared in The Atlantic, Forbes, The Daily Beast, The Daily, Le Figaro, Rue89, techPresident, The American Scene, and even Fashionista.

He is a graduate of HEC Paris.

With "libertarians" like Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry, who the hell needs statists ... ?

Apparently, this is the first of four essays on the theme "National Service: What Do We Owe?"
http://www.cato-unbound.org/issues/september-2013/national-service-what-do-we-owe

Fortunately, Jacob Hornberger will be contributing the final entry on September 16th. Give 'em hell, Jacob!

[kcchiefs6465]

I tried to read..

[better-dead-than-fed]

Government should give C4 to libertarians.

[fr33]

I never signed up for selective service. I'd dodge 'em if they tried to draft me. Prison is better than murdering.

[NewRightLibertarian]

But hey, lets not badmouth any of 'our own.' Those CATO and Reason guys are just swell :rolleyes:

[heavenlyboy34]

I never signed up for selective service. I'd dodge 'em if they tried to draft me. Prison is better than murdering.
Did you take a student loan? If so, you signed up for SS.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry is the founder of Noosphere (http://noosphere.io/), a social media market research firm. He is also a contributor at Forbes (http://blogs.forbes.com/pascalemmanuelgobry) and a business and economics columnist at Atlantico (http://www.atlantico.fr/users/pascal-emmanuel-gobry).

He was formerly with Business Insider,Biz Insider is a product from mother NBC just another establishment hack trying to make a name in propaganda land.

....end trans

[idiom]

Pretty sure if America was ever invaded, libertarians would be the first responders.

[better-dead-than-fed]

Pretty sure if America was ever invaded, libertarians would be the first responders.

It hasn't been invaded already?

[fr33]

Did you take a student loan? If so, you signed up for SS.

Nope. Poor uneducated me.

[Anti Federalist]

I never signed up for selective service. I'd dodge 'em if they tried to draft me. Prison is better than murdering.

The modern state, in one line.

"We'll throw you in jail for NOT killing people."

[green73]

LOL

[MRK]

Im literally in the jungle on the other side of the world. They'll have a swell time sending me a draft notification letter here.

I've been told I should register my address with the embassy. Yeah, that's never going to happen.

[Christian Liberty]

Did you take a student loan? If so, you signed up for SS.

Yeah, I am signed up for that reason, but I wouldn't "serve."

[Origanalist]

Oooh boy. I tried to comment, this is what I wrote;

What in the world is this man babbling about?

"Libertarians think it’s legitimate for the state to use violence to take people’s money. If you don’t think taxation is legitimate, you are an anarchist, not a libertarian."

Absolutely not true. Does the author even know federal income tax started because of Lincolns war? The war that greatly expanded the role of the federal government and it's ability to coerce through threat of violence?

If our military were for defending our freedom in the advent of invasion he might have a point. It's not very hard to see that is not what it is used for.

My comment is awaiting moderator approval. :rolleyes: Anybody want to place a bet?

[Christian Liberty]

Some libertarians do support taxes. He's right about that. But no libertarian can support slavery, which is what false labor is.

[Matthew5]

Do you even Liberty, bro?

http://www.cato-unbound.org/sites/cato-unbound.org/files/images/authors/pictures/pegobry.jpg

[jkr]

HA

HA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHA HAR HAR


I THOUGHT $LAVERY WUZ BAD?!?!?



GOOD LUCK WITH THAT...

[Origanalist]

Do you even Liberty, bro?

http://www.cato-unbound.org/sites/cato-unbound.org/files/images/authors/pictures/pegobry.jpg

Wow, look at the brain on...er...Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry!

[BSWPaulsen]

This is what you get when you put a "LIBERTARIAN" sticker on the intellectually handicapped.

[TaftFan]

Of course, Rockwell with CATO bashing. This was not from the CATO editors, but a singular writer. I am sure most if not all of their other writers are opposed.

Imagine if CATO went after Rockwell for his southern strategy, he might pipe down on his attacks.

[awake]

Ok, let me play the stupid game: Every gasbag tool who thinks this is a good idea owes me $19.99 a month. If you act now, I will throw in a swift boot to the side of your throat.

These knobs simply declare slavery with a straight face.

[69360]

Pretty sure if America was ever invaded, libertarians would be the first responders.

+ rep

We will be the ones defending the country while the liberals "shelter in place"

[torchbearer]

they can send me a tank. i'll hold down my corner of the country.

[Scrapmo]

+ rep

We will be the ones defending the country while the liberals "shelter in place"

Shelter in place? They would be welcoming their new overlords.

[Occam's Banana]

Of course, Rockwell with CATO bashing. This was not from the CATO editors, but a singular writer.

This was not from "LRC editors" (or Rockwell himself), but a single writer (Karen De Coster). Pot, meet kettle ...

Tell me something: if you get to attribute instances of "CATO bashing" (for things "CATO editors" did NOT actually write) on the LRC blog that were NOT actually written by Lew Rockwell (by calling them "his attacks"), then how are YOU doing anything even the slightest bit different from what YOU are accusing HIM of doing? IOW: How are you not being an utter & complete hypocrite here?


I am sure most if not all of their other writers are opposed.

Then why should CATO wish to sponsor, publish and associate itself with such tripe?

You'd never read crap like P-E Gobry's mealy-mouthed exercise in "syntax destruction" at LRC.

There is a reason for that ...


Imagine if CATO went after Rockwell for his southern strategy, he might pipe down on his attacks.

I doubt it.

[Feeding the Abscess]

Of course, Rockwell with CATO bashing. This was not from the CATO editors, but a singular writer. I am sure most if not all of their other writers are opposed.

Imagine if CATO went after Rockwell for his southern strategy, he might pipe down on his attacks.

Rockwell (and Ron and Murray) are attacked for the southern strategy frequently.

[better-dead-than-fed]

We will be the ones defending the country while the liberals "shelter in place"

69360, plz.




I prefer to take care of myself first, get to a safe place, keep a low profile. It could change someday. But for now if I don't like something, I proactively remove myself from it.
Could a time come in the future where an issue is important enough to me to risk that, possibly.What issue would be important enough to you?A direct immediate threat to my family or property. I like to be left alone and do as I please. That is still possible in my part of the country.

[green73]

This was not from "LRC editors" (or Rockwell himself), but a single writer (Karen De Coster). Pot, meet kettle ...

Tell me something: if you get to attribute instances of "CATO bashing" (for things "CATO editors" did NOT actually write) on the LRC blog that were NOT actually written by Lew Rockwell (by calling them "his attacks"), then how are YOU doing anything even the slightest bit different from what YOU are accusing HIM of doing? IOW: How are you not being an utter & complete hypocrite here?


Hahaha!!!! Aaaaaaahhhahahah aha aha bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....

[fr33]

Do you even Liberty, bro?

http://www.cato-unbound.org/sites/cato-unbound.org/files/images/authors/pictures/pegobry.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ph8V052fCNE/RoKTfJVMngI/AAAAAAAAAlQ/PZN_4yyIobA/s320/karlchilders.jpg

[NewRightLibertarian]

Of course, Rockwell with CATO bashing. This was not from the CATO editors, but a singular writer. I am sure most if not all of their other writers are opposed.

Imagine if CATO went after Rockwell for his southern strategy, he might pipe down on his attacks.

CATO deserves to be bashed frequently. Putting a knife into the back of liberty like CATO is doing is a far worse offense than writing some mean words decades ago. Get your priorities straight.

[Origanalist]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ph8V052fCNE/RoKTfJVMngI/AAAAAAAAAlQ/PZN_4yyIobA/s320/karlchilders.jpg

Damn! Time to clean the monitor again.

[Origanalist]

He's getting slayed pretty bad in the comments and has the lack of wisdom to get in there and try to defend himself...:p

[fr33]

He's getting slayed pretty bad in the comments and has the lack of wisdom to get in there and try to defend himself...:p

I've been watching it since it was posted here. It seems like he has the authority to approve comments. It went from 2 to 79 earlier this afternoon and he responded to most of them. He'll probably approve another batch when he gets online again tomorrow.

[Antischism]

Do they typically publish pieces like this? Why would they approve this essay on the site? It's like they want to lose credibility (or what's left of it).

[Origanalist]

I've been watching it since it was posted here. It seems like he has the authority to approve comments. It went from 2 to 79 earlier this afternoon and he responded to most of them. He'll probably approve another batch when he gets online again tomorrow.

I guess he didn't think mine was worth responding too..:rolleyes: (or he didn't have a response)

[NewRightLibertarian]

Do they typically publish pieces like this? Why would they approve this essay on the site? It's like they want to lose credibility (or what's left of it).

It's because they want to promote 'debate' or so they say. It's no wonder they've had such a dismal record of promoting liberty from their beltway thinktank all of these years.

[mczerone]

He's getting slayed pretty bad in the comments and has the lack of wisdom to get in there and try to defend himself...:p

He's not even defending himself. He's being a child and responding with meaningless one-liners that show a lack of concern for any reader of his article, their concerns, or even basic logic and reasoning.


Joe • 14 hours ago
Surely this is satire? The Onion hijacked a Cato piece, right?

Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry 10 hours ago −
Got me.


Isefree • 15 hours ago
Let us enslave all able-bodied men and we'll call that the price to be paid for freedom. Our ancestors did it, so should we. Some times ya gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette.

Military enslavement "need not be an institution of unjust oppression". It's only unjust in countries where people aren't "free" to vote for their masters. In a country of "free citizens" like the US it's just plain old oppression.

With a little practice the author could out-orwell Orwell.

Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry Isefree • 10 hours ago −
Conscription is totally enslavement. Just the other day Israel sold 5000 soldiers to South Korea, which it will use for pulp. Wait, that never happened. Hmm.


jason • a day ago
You just argued that involuntary servitude is libertarian.

That's like arguing squares are round. If you believe in conscription you are not a libertarian, by the very definition of the term. You are free to advocate whatever backwards and destructive political philosophy you wish, but I would ask that you not try to drag the name of libertarianism down with you.

As a Rothbardian anarcho-capitalist I reject the state itself as coercion and thus the entire premise of the article is hilarious to me, but the idea of mandatory military service is dismissed by any and all types of libertarians (Objectivists, Old Right conservatives, modern Ron Paul Republicans, individualist anarchists, US Libertarian Party types, etc).


Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry jason • 10 hours ago −
"As a Rothbardian anarcho-capitalist I reject the state itself as coercion..." Well there you go, I'm not talking to you.

[krugminator]

What's funny is no one mentions that Mises wrote a short Chapter about forced military service in Human Action.

I certainly am against it. Mises firmly said it should be mandatory. He was pretty viciously critical of anyone who opposed it too. Just sayin'.

I'm sure Lew Rockwell will add that point to his site. LOL.

"He who in our age opposes armaments and conscription is, perhaps unbeknown to himself, an abettor of those aiming at the enslavement of all."

[fr33]

He's not even defending himself. He's being a child and responding with meaningless one-liners that show a lack of concern for any reader of his article, their concerns, or even basic logic and reasoning.

His responses in the comments remind me of when Kurt Schlichter posted this article (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/09/18/Time-for-Ron-Paul-Fans-to-Support-the-Constitution) and how he responded to many of us on twitter.

[Occam's Banana]

I'm sure Lew Rockwell will add that point to his site. LOL.

Why? What on Earth makes you imagine that he should? Rockwell and the bloggers at LRC are absolutely and categorically opposed to conscription.

Rockwell et al. disagree with Mises on this point. Why should they be expected to promote an idea which they reject - no matter who advocated it?

[idiom]

Conscription is only necessary when nobody feels your government is worth fighting for.

Its just a marketing problem. Conscription if for Overlords who lack finesse.

[nobody's_hero]

The last thing they want to do is get me to raise my right hand and swear to defend the Constitution.

That's all I'm gonna say.

[Christian Liberty]

The last thing they want to do is get me to raise my right hand and swear to defend the Constitution.

That's all I'm gonna say.

Oh yes, you'd be executed for treason and murder if you actually defended the constitution against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.

[LexEtLibertas]

Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry, "The Libertarian Case for National Military Service", Cato Unbound, Sept. 9, 2013. Intra-publication reply by Jason Kuznicki, "There Is No Libertarian Case for National Military Service", Cato Unbound, Sept. 11, 2013.


The following is my reply to Gobry's foregoing article, which I posted to the Cato Unbound website circa 12:30 p.m. Eastern Time on Sept. 10, 2013 on Gobry's above article page. The blog software stated that my post is being held for moderator approval. Many other replies have been posted to Gobry's article that were submitted after mine. Hopefully my reply will also be posted at Cato Unbound. But even if it does not get posted there, I can nevertheless post my reply elsewhere. (I also posted it on Kuznicki's above article page on Sept. 11, 2013--replacing "present article" in my text with "aforecited article"--and it also as of yet has not been approved.)


[begin]


Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry's present article is extremely muddleheaded. Gobry keeps using the word "libertarian" without ever defining what he means by the word, while attributing positions to it that are antipodal to what the leading libertarian theorists--particularly Profs. Murray N. Rothbard (known by the sobriquets "Mr. Libertarian" and, while he was alive, "The Greatest Living Enemy of the State") and Hans-Hermann Hoppe--have explicated as being libertarianism.


Gobry's problem in his article is that to him, libertarianism is just a vague idea of desiring more freedom, instead of a rigorously logical system with definite truth or falsity values on the legitimacy of the entire range of possible human interactions. With Gobry's nebulous conception, "libertarianism" could be anything, since even the most totalitarian of governments maintain that their subjects are free (e.g., "Arbeit Macht Frei"). Furthermore, libertarianism in the sense of Profs. Rothbard and Hoppe is not only a logically rigorous ethical system, but one which is apodictically true, in the sense that the truth of rigorous libertarianism cannot be denied without assuming its truth in the denial. One who disagrees with rigorous libertarianism is logically wrong in the same degree as one who argues that they cannot argue. For more on this, see my following article: James Redford, "Libertarian Anarchism Is Apodictically Correct", Social Science Research Network, Dec. 15, 2011, doi:10.2139/ssrn.1972733.


Nor, contrary to what Gobry states, is the United States a free country. Currently the US government maintains that it can kill and indefinitely imprison anyone anywhere in the world based upon nothing more than the US president's say-so, including US citizens arrested on US soil. And the US government maintains it can do all of this in secret. So no such thing as a human right exists in the US vis-à-vis the US government. Moreover, the US has the highest prisoner population of any country in the entire world. This is both in terms of absolute numbers, as well as on a per capita basis (see Roy Walmsley, "World Prison Population List (ninth edition)", International Centre for Prison Studies [King's College London--School of Law], May 2011). Many of these US prisons and jails are hellish torture-pits where boys and men are gang-raped without condoms for years and decades on end, and where mutilation and death is an ever-present reality.


Moreover, the US government routinely mass-murders is own subjects in staged terrorist attacks in order to have a pretext for usurping ever more power, such as with the 9/11 attacks, the Gulf of Tonkin incident, the Pearl Harbor attack, etc. Regarding the US government's Gulf of Tonkin false-flag operation, some 58,000 US citizens died in the Vietnam War which directly resulted from said false-flag. This was nothing less than mass-murder by the US government against these US citizens, since their deaths were the result of malice aforethought by the US government: the US president and the US's highest military leaders involved in staging this false-flag operation cannot coherently claim that they are not responsible for these US citizens' deaths, no more than one who throws a person into a lion's den can veridically claim innocence in the victim's resulting death. Such an abuser is fully guilty of murder.


For a much deeper examination into the aforesaid three US government-staged pretext-attacks, see Sec. 8.2.1 of my following article, in particular pp. 70-86: James Redford, "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything", Social Science Research Network, Sept. 10, 2012 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2011), doi:10.2139/ssrn.1974708. This article concerns physicist and mathematician Prof. Frank J. Tipler's Omega Point cosmology and the Feynman-DeWitt-Weinberg quantum gravity/Standard Model Theory of Everything; however, it also analyzes the societal implications of said, particularly the implications of the exponential advancement of technology and hence also the coming radical life-extension technologies (i.e., transhumanism) in light of a world dominated by a callous oligarchy.


[end]


The following are the two articles of mine which I cited in my above reply:


James Redford, "Libertarian Anarchism Is Apodictically Correct", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), Dec. 15, 2011, 9 pp., doi:10.2139/ssrn.1972733; PDF, 118091 bytes, MD5: e6de8181ad84c9d96400bb9582311c79.


James Redford, "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), Sept. 10, 2012 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2011), 186 pp., doi:10.2139/ssrn.1974708; PDF, 1741424 bytes, MD5: 8f7b21ee1e236fc2fbb22b4ee4bbd4cb.