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noneedtoaggress
09-06-2013, 12:18 PM
Time for a game. Whoever can spot everything wrong with this article gets a gold star. ;)

FAIR WARNING: IF ATTEMPTING TO PLAY THIS GAME PLEASE TAKE A 15 MINUTE BREAK EVERY COUPLE HOURS. IF YOU ARE PRONE TO HAVING AN ANEURYSM DO NOT ATTEMPT. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY HEALTH ISSUES THAT MAY COME OUT OF READING THIS.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-05/libertarians-are-the-new-communists.html


Libertarians Are the New Communists

http://www.bloomberg.com/image/iRenocvDTS3Y.jpg

Most people would consider radical libertarianism and communism polar opposites: The first glorifies personal freedom. The second would obliterate it. Yet the ideologies are simply mirror images. Both attempt to answer the same questions, and fail to do so in similar ways. Where communism was adopted, the result was misery, poverty and tyranny. If extremist libertarians ever translated their beliefs into policy, it would lead to the same kinds of catastrophe.
Let’s start with some definitions. By radical libertarianism, we mean the ideology that holds that individual liberty trumps all other values. By communism, we mean the ideology of extreme state domination of private and economic life.

Some of the radical libertarians are Ayn Rand fans who divide their fellow citizens into makers, in the mold of John Galt, and takers, in the mold of anyone not John Galt.

Some, such as the Koch brothers, are economic royalists who repackage trickle-down economics as “libertarian populism.” Some are followers of Texas Senator Ted Cruz, whose highest aspiration is to shut down government. Some resemble the anti-tax activist Grover Norquist, who has made a career out of trying to drown, stifle or strangle government.

Yes, liberty is a core American value, and an overweening state can be unhealthy. And there are plenty of self-described libertarians who have adopted the label mainly because they support same-sex marriage or decry government surveillance. These social libertarians aren’t the problem. It is the nihilist anti-state libertarians of the Koch-Cruz-Norquist-Paul (Ron and Rand alike) school who should worry us.

Human Nature

Like communism, this philosophy is defective in its misreading of human nature, misunderstanding of how societies work and utter failure to adapt to changing circumstances. Radical libertarianism assumes that humans are wired only to be selfish, when in fact cooperation is the height of human evolution. It assumes that societies are efficient mechanisms requiring no rules or enforcers, when, in fact, they are fragile ecosystems prone to collapse and easily overwhelmed by free-riders. And it is fanatically rigid in its insistence on a single solution to every problem: Roll back the state!

Communism failed in three strikingly similar ways. It believed that humans should be willing cogs serving the proletariat. It assumed that societies could be run top-down like machines. And it, too, was fanatically rigid in its insistence on an all-encompassing ideology, leading to totalitarianism.

Radical libertarianism, if ever put into practice at the scale of something bigger than a tiny enclave, would also be a disaster.

We say the conditional “would” because radical libertarianism has a fatal flaw: It can’t be applied across a functioning society. What might radical libertarians do if they actually had power? A President Paul would rule by tantrum, shutting down the government in order to repeal laws already passed by Congress. A Secretary Norquist would eliminate the Internal Revenue Service and progressive taxation, so that the already wealthy could exponentially compound their advantage, as the programs that sustain a prosperous middle class are gutted. A Koch domestic policy would obliterate environmental standards for clean air and water, so that polluters could externalize all their costs onto other people.

Radical libertarians would be great at destroying. They would have little concept of creating or governing. It is in failed states such as Somalia that libertarianism finds its fullest actual expression.

Extreme Positions

Some libertarians will claim we are arguing against a straw man and that no serious adherent to their philosophy advocates the extreme positions we describe. The public record of extreme statements by the likes of Cruz, Norquist and the Pauls speaks for itself. Reasonable people debate how best to regulate or how government can most effectively do its work -- not whether to regulate at all or whether government should even exist.

The alternative to this extremism is an evolving blend of freedom and cooperation. The relationship between social happiness and economic success can be plotted on a bell curve, and the sweet spot is away from the extremes of either pure liberty or pure communitarianism. That is where true citizenship and healthy capitalism are found.

True citizenship enables a society to thrive for precisely the reasons that communism and radical libertarianism cannot. It is based on a realistic conception of human nature that recognizes we must cooperate to be able compete at higher levels. True citizenship means changing policy to adapt to changes in circumstance. Sometimes government isn’t the answer. Other times it is.

If the U.S. is to continue to adapt and evolve, we have to see that freedom isn’t simply the removal of encumbrance, or the ability to ignore inconvenient rules or limitations. Freedom is responsibility. Communism failed because it kept citizens from taking responsibility for governing themselves. By preaching individualism above all else, so does radical libertarianism.

It is one thing to oppose intrusive government surveillance or the overreach of federal programs. It is another to call for the evisceration of government itself. Let’s put radical libertarianism into the dustbin of history, along with its cousin communism.

(Nick Hanauer is a founder of Second Avenue Partners, a venture capital company in Seattle specializing in early-stage startups and emerging technology. He has founded or financed dozens of companies, including aQuantive Inc. and Amazon.com. Eric Liu is the founder of Citizen University and a former White House speechwriter and deputy domestic policy adviser to President Bill Clinton. They are co-authors of “The Gardens of Democracy.” Follow them on Twitter at @NickHanauer and @EricPLiu.)

To contact the writers of this article: Nick Hanauer at Nick@secondave.com; Eric Liu at eric@truep.org.

To contact the editor responsible for this article: Max Berley at mberley@bloomberg.net.

cjm
09-06-2013, 12:42 PM
comments in response to the article are encouraging:


i smell fear.


Look up: Voluntarism.

Good lord, what a garbage piece.


Lining up the straw men by falsely describing libertarian thinking and knocking them down...nothing new here. Libertarians believe in the rule of law, they just believe there are way too many stupid laws, and I would agree.


HAHAHAHAHA :) I didn't think Nanny Bloomberg's propaganda outlet could get any lamer!! Thanks for proving me wrong, I needed a good laugh!


Great article... Just about every important fallacy can be found in it.

shane77m
09-06-2013, 12:45 PM
I guess I am a commie. I just order some "this tip is a gift" cards from the LP website.

ctiger2
09-06-2013, 12:49 PM
Funny article. The only problem is they only mention 1 libertarian.

The Koch's are Big Govt Fascist "libertarians"
Ted Cruz is a Big Govt Christian Zionist Nut not even close to a libertarian.
Grover Norquist is a Big Govt statist who just doesn't want to pay for it.
Rand Paul is a trad conservative republican with some libertarian views.
Ron is a libertarian.

mczerone
09-06-2013, 12:52 PM
Time for a game. Whoever can spot everything wrong with this article gets a gold star. ;)

FAIR WARNING: IF ATTEMPTING TO PLAY THIS GAME PLEASE TAKE A 15 MINUTE BREAK EVERY COUPLE HOURS. IF YOU ARE PRONE TO HAVING AN ANEURYSM DO NOT ATTEMPT. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY HEALTH ISSUES THAT MAY COME OUT OF READING THIS.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-05/libertarians-are-the-new-communists.html


(1) predicting catastrophy without evidence or reason

(2) "individual liberty" isn't a value that trumps other values, it's the ONLY way to allow people to effectively exhibit THEIR OWN VALUES.

(3) "Some are X, some are Y..." implies that these are the only, or at least the dominant forms. It sets up a field of strawmen to attack each, rather than identify the actual theme of the topic.

(4) Some libertarians are concerned about X. They are just "social libertarians" - not "real" libertarians, and they are good.

(5) Not one of Koch, Cruz, Norquist, or Rand Paul are "nihilist anti-state libertarians". Ron may or may not be, depending on how much admiration for Rothbard he's hiding under his politician's suit.

(6) Communism does fail in the areas of human nature, societal cooperation, and adaptation. Libertarianism does not, and the acadmeics specificly choose libertarianism because it adresses these issues better than any other political philosophy.

(7) Pure selfishness does not rule out cooperation.

(8) Rather than "no rules or enforcers" there's the emphasis on competing, accountable rule-makers and enforcers rather than a (communist) monopoly in these necessary things.

(9) If society is a "fragile ecosystem" the WORST thing you can do is appoint a single decision maker prone to corruption and bias.

(10) The "single solution" of "Roll Back the State" is NOT the solution. It's pointing out that the "single solution" of statists is wrong, and what's needed is cooperative, market action of some sort, or of many different sorts.

(11) If communism failed because of humans not being "willing cogs", societies not being top-down, and being fantastically rigid on ideology, then Statism suffers from these same downfalls, not libertarianism.

(12) "Radical libertarianism, if ever put into practice at the scale of something bigger than a tiny enclave, would also be a disaster." Why?

(13) Libertarianism - or at least our strawman of it - can't functionally be placed in our current "functioning society's" power structure, so it can't work in the real world. How about (a) your society isn't functioning anymore, and (b) the entire structure would be different.

(14) Ending the IRS wouldn't "exponentially compound" the wealth of the wealthy.

(15) NO current programs "sustain a prosperous middle class"

(16) How would polluters be immune from civil arbitration claims without a State? They'd be MORE liable for pollution without the EPA.

(17) True libertarians could only destroy stuff they own, and there's no reason to think that they'd do so.

(18) They are the only ones that have a concept of creating: That developing new products and services, that being more efficient are the only ways to serve your fellow man, and therefore the only way to make Profit.

(19) Somalia is a failed state: one that has seen much better standards of living since the state collapsed. The lingering violence and wars are because the US and UN and others WANT TO IMPOSE A STATE!

(20) "We're not strawmanning, because we're strawmanning!" Cruz and Norquist are not libertarians. Rand is not a libertarian. And just because you're misrepresenting certain people's views and goals doesn't mean that you're correctly analyzing the "ideal" libertarianism.

(21) "An evolving blend of freedom and cooperation." AMEN!!! You can't have either without libertarianism. Forced cooperation is tyranny, just like forced love-making is rape. The only way to have real cooperation is through freedom - freedom to choose associates, means, goals, etc.

(22) Social happiness and economic success can't be measured, let alone be placed on a "bell curve". Also, only one variable goes on a bell curve, not two.

(23) WTF is "true citizenship and healthy capitalism"? And further Middle of the Road Policy Leads to Socialism.

(24) Sounds like their conception of "true citizenship" PERFECTLY ALIGNS with libertarian individualism. Why pretend there's a disagreement?

(25) "sometimes government isn't the answer, sometimes it is" - yeah, just like the use of deadly force is sometimes the answer. But the CONTINUAL EXISTENCE OF A STATE that provides "government" is not an answer, ever.

(26) "If the U.S. is to continue to adapt and evolve..." I don't care about the U.S. I care about HUMANS. PEOPLE. And again, libertarianism isn't about "ignoring inconvenient rules" - it is about "Freedom is responsability" - WHICH IS WHY THE STATE CAN'T EXIST - IT'S NOT RESPONSIBLE.

(27) How does "radical libertarianism" - even in the author's portrait of it - keep individuals from taking the responsability for governing themselves?

(28) i don't call for the eviseration of government. I call for the flourishing of government, the tempering of bad actions. But that can only happen without a State monopolizing government.

mczerone
09-06-2013, 12:57 PM
If the authors mean "There will be witch-hunts for people that hold these values by the power elite" they might be right.

BuddyRey
09-06-2013, 01:03 PM
Funny article. The only problem is they only mention 1 libertarian.

The Koch's are Big Govt Fascist "libertarians"
Ted Cruz is a Big Govt Christian Zionist Nut not even close to a libertarian.
Grover Norquist is a Big Govt statist who just doesn't want to pay for it.
Rand Paul is a trad conservative republican with some libertarian views.
Ron is a libertarian.

LOL, exactly. And notice the author didn't spare any time dropping the name of all progressives' favorite pet libertarian boogeyman (who wasn't even a libertarian and was overt in her hatred of them) Ayn Rand. Leftists love Ayn Rand way more than even the most hardcore Objectivists do, because her polarizing personality and harsh, direct way of couching her own policy objectives jibe perfectly with the Snidely Whiplash, cartoon-villain portrait of libertarians that they (the progressives) are always trying to perpetuate.

noneedtoaggress
09-06-2013, 01:04 PM
Nice, mczerone! +rep

Sola_Fide
09-06-2013, 01:11 PM
Reasonable people debate how best to regulate or how government can most effectively do its work -- not whether to regulate at all or whether government should even exist.

Thank you so much for clearing this up for me. I wouldn't want to be unreasonable.

July
09-06-2013, 02:22 PM
+1 mczerone for your patience, lol...

But I think this one could be summed up in one sentence: Freedom just isn't practical, you see.

VoluntaryAmerican
09-06-2013, 02:45 PM
If the authors mean "There will be witch-hunts for people that hold these values by the power elite" they might be right.

That's what I thought when I first read the title.

Paulbot99
09-06-2013, 03:35 PM
My eyes are bleeding. How is eliminating government force and waste ever a bad thing?

fearthereaperx
09-06-2013, 03:35 PM
Here's Peter Schiff debating one of the authors


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcbkJtuSVNE

krugminator
09-06-2013, 03:44 PM
Here's Peter Schiff debating one of the authors


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcbkJtuSVNE

Beat me too it. I opened up the link. Didn't read the article after I saw the author and looked to see if anyone posted this.

krugminator
09-06-2013, 03:51 PM
Funny article. The only problem is they only mention 1 libertarian.

The Koch's are Big Govt Fascist "libertarians"
Ted Cruz is a Big Govt Christian Zionist Nut not even close to a libertarian.
Grover Norquist is a Big Govt statist who just doesn't want to pay for it.
Rand Paul is a trad conservative republican with some libertarian views.
Ron is a libertarian.

Grover is probably as libertarian or more so than Ron. He advocates the government being 5% of GDP and he is much more libertarian on immigration and abortion. The Koch's are both libertarians. Hell , they even funded Murray Rothbard to write his main book on anarcho-capitalism.

matt0611
09-06-2013, 04:00 PM
Nick Gillespie dissects the article.


I've argued elsewhere that signs of the emerging "libertarian era" are everywhere around us, both in the voluminous and ever-growing positive press adherents of "Free Minds and Free Markets" and the increasingly shrill and misinformed attacks are drawing.

The latest example of the latter is on glorious, semi-literate display in the amazingly awful "Libertarians Are the New Communists," by Nick Hanauer and Eric Liu and posted at Bloomberg View.

It is less a fully formed op-ed and more the rough draft of a freshman composition scratched out after a long night out on the tiles.

The co-authors, who also penned a 2011 book called The Gardens of Democracy, assail a Dick Tracy-level Rogues Gallery of "nihilist, anti-state libertarians" including the Koch Brothers (natch), Sen. Ted Cruz (?), Grover Norquist, and Ron and Rand Paul. Ayn Rand's also part of the problem, of course.

Radical libertarianism assumes that humans are wired only to be selfish, when in fact cooperation is the height of human evolution. It assumes that societies are efficient mechanisms requiring no rules or enforcers, when, in fact, they are fragile ecosystems prone to collapse and easily overwhelmed by free-riders. And it is fanatically rigid in its insistence on a single solution to every problem: Roll back the state!

Curiously, you'd expect Hanauer and Liu to provide at least one quote - even taken out of context - in which any of the people they vilify call for actual anarchy or the total absence of government. Instead you get treated to such remedial-writing gems as

The public record of extreme statements by the likes of Cruz, Norquist and the Pauls speaks for itself.

Back in the days when I taught college composition, that's exactly the sort of line I'd circle with a note asking, "Examples?" But it's not suprising that the authors wouldn't bother quoting any of their targets, since none of them (to my knowledge anyway) espouse what is more commonly called anarchy. Indeed, it's a curious but little-appreciated fact that in the federal budget plan Rand Paul submitted for consideration earlier this year, he proposed spending about $38 trillion over the next 10 years (see page 96). What a odd thing for a nihilistic anarchist who yearns for an America that's more like Somalia - where "libertarianism finds its fullest actual expression" - to propose.

In their hurry to create an ideological pinata to bat around, Hanauer and Liu pause to acknowledge that "social libertarians" - folks who "support same-sex marriage or decry government surveillance" - aren't the problem. After all,

Reasonable people debate how best to regulate or how government can most effectively do its work - not whether to regulate at all or whether government should even exist....

It is one thing to oppose intrusive government surveillance or the overreach of federal programs. It is another to call for the evisceration of government itself.

Hmm, debating how government can most effectively do its work? Opposing intrusive government surveillance or the overreach of federal programs? That sounds like a pretty good definition of exactly what the Koch Brothers and the others mentioned above are doing.

Yes they want to "roll back the state" - Rand Paul's budget would lower federal spending as a percentage of GDP to around 16 percent over the next decade - but they seem to be pretty OK with its continued existence.

And I suspect that they would also agree that "cooperation" is central to human flourishing (what are markets if not crucibles of voluntary exchange?). I don't agree with every utterance by the Kochs (one of whom, David, sits on the board of trustees of Reason Foundation, the nonprofit that publishes this website), the Pauls, Ted Cruz, or Ayn Rand. But to miscast them so flagrantly - and in absentia - is not unfair, it's unpersuasive in the extreme.

Hanauer and Liu's mode of argument consists of repeating negative statements ("Radical libertarians would be great at destroying," they are "fanatically rigid," they are "economic royalists" who are "mirror images" of communists, etc.) and writing opponents out of serious discussion (libertarians are not "reasonable people," so there is no reason to actually represent their viewpoint even while attacking it).

If this sort of ultra-crude and unconvincing style of argument (communists=bad; libertarians=bad; thereore, communists=libertarians) is the best that opponents of libertarian influence and policy can do, our future is indeed bright.

Cutlerzzz
09-06-2013, 04:50 PM
Here's Peter Schiff debating one of the authors


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcbkJtuSVNE

Wait, how did multiple people write that? It was a short article and there was nothing remotely intellectual about that.

It actually took two of them?

torchbearer
09-06-2013, 05:18 PM
comrades, welcome to the collective.

Christian Liberty
09-06-2013, 07:12 PM
Some libertarians will claim we are arguing against a straw man and that no serious adherent to their philosophy advocates the extreme positions we describe. The public record of extreme statements by the likes of Cruz, Norquist and the Pauls speaks for itself. Reasonable people debate how best to regulate or how government can most effectively do its work -- not whether to regulate at all or whether government should even exist.


Wait... they think Ted Cruz is an anarchist?

I'm not even going to waste my time reading the article. The writer should be slapped in the face for even thinking to write something that idiotic.

Thank you so much for clearing this up for me. I wouldn't want to be unreasonable.

Did you notice that they seriously called Israel-first Zionist Ted Cruz an anarchist?

Snew
09-07-2013, 08:40 AM
lol since when are the Koch brothers libertarian? That goes for Cruz, Norquist, Rand Paul and Ayn Rand for that matter.

Anti Federalist
07-04-2014, 07:58 PM
At the top of LRC blog right now bump.