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aGameOfThrones
09-04-2013, 11:49 AM
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Sergio Garcia arrived in the U.S. illegally 20 years ago to pick almonds in the field with his father. But that was not all he wanted for his life.

Working the fields and at a grocery store, he attended community college, studying to become a paralegal, and passed the California bar on the first try, a boast Gov. Jerry Brown, former Gov. Peter Wilson and nearly 50 percent of all first-time test takers can't make.

Now, still living in the U.S. illegally, he will ask the California Supreme Court on Wednesday to license him. He has the support of the state bar and California Attorney General Kamala Harris. The U.S. Department of Justice, however, is trying to block his request.

The DOJ argues in court filings that granting Garcia a law license card would violate a federal law barring people in the U.S. illegally from receiving government benefits. The agency argues the state Supreme Court and California bar officials use public money to license and regulate Garcia's practice.

The federal law was "plainly designed to preclude undocumented aliens from receiving commercial and professional licenses issued by states and the federal government," the DOJ said in court papers after the state's high court asked for the federal government's position.

"It was a real slap in the face," Garcia said.

The dispute is the latest high-profile immigration clash between state and federal laws. Usually, it's the Obama administration opposing state laws in Arizona and elsewhere thought to be anti-immigrant.

The Obama position surprised some, since it had recently adopted a program that shields people who were brought to the U.S. as children, graduated high school and have kept a clean criminal record from deportation and allows them to legally work in the country.

At 36, Garcia is too old to qualify for the Obama program. But he and the immigration groups supporting Garcia argue that he his is exactly the type of candidate the Obama administration had in mind when it adopted its program.

So the administration's flat-out opposition stunned Garcia, who self-financed his education at Cal Northern School of Law in Chico while working at a grocery store and publishing a self-help book in 2006.

"I was very upset by" the administration's position, he said. "I worked hard and have never been a burden to the state."

But legal scholars and others say Garcia faces a number of obstacles even if he wins his law license.

Garcia will have to work for himself because no law firm or other employers could legally hire him. And he may be automatically disqualified from representing certain clients and taking on some types of cases because of his citizenship status.

"Garcia is not qualified to practice law because he continually violates federal law by his presence in the United States," former State Bar prosecutor Larry DeSha told the state Supreme Court in one of the few "friend of the court" briefs filed opposing Garcia's licensing.

A similar case is brewing in Florida. That state's Supreme Court has so far refused to certify a person living illegally in the U.S. as a lawyer, but has not issued a final ruling. The California Supreme Court has 90 days to rule after Wednesday's arguments.

Garcia and his numerous supporters argue that he is deserving of his law license on legal — and moral — grounds.
State Bar officials and California's attorney general argue citizenship status is not a requirement to receive a California law license. Garcia said he's deserving to practice law in the state for those legal reasons, plus the hard work and dedication he put into passing the bar examination.



http://finance.yahoo.com/news/immigrant-fights-become-california-lawyer-145339340.html

Zippyjuan
09-04-2013, 12:06 PM
But I thought all illegal aliens were lazy welfare users? Congratulations on working so hard towards a goal!

better-dead-than-fed
09-04-2013, 02:47 PM
Which section of the constitution authorizes the government to regulate of the practice of law; especially the practice of federal of law?

kcchiefs6465
09-04-2013, 02:58 PM
Which section of the constitution authorizes the government to regulate of the practice of law; especially the practice of federal of law?
If I had to guess which clause they'd bastardize or have bastardized to 'support' their 'regulation' (in the modern sense of the word) of the practicing of law, my money would be on the commerce clause.

Of course I don't need to explain to you how absurd and unintended it is that the commerce clause is used for things unimaginably violating of the original intent of the words and spirit of the time when the Constitution was drafted. Bad precedents I guess. Or a dereliction of duty whether by the People, Congress or the SCOTUS.

Americans1st
09-04-2013, 03:04 PM
Most are. How about we take care of Americans first who would like to be a lawyer.

better-dead-than-fed
09-04-2013, 03:08 PM
Most are. How about we take care of Americans first who would like to be a lawyer.

I appreciate your point, but how about we take care of Americans who need a good lawyer?

The Free Hornet
09-04-2013, 03:28 PM
Most are. How about we take care of Americans first who would like to be a lawyer.

Do you mean end protectionist, state-mandated licensing schemes? Why propose that "we take of" anybody? Are you OK with the fact that if you need a lawyer, the market is artificially limited so the price you pay is higher, or the quality you receive is lower?

Of course I read about there being a glut of lawyers. Rarely do I read about a glut of dishwashers.

Too many lawyers is a problem for who....?

In 1986, the AMA feared a glut of doctors. They took care of themselves alright.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1129&dat=19860625&id=jq8xAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UG4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6902,7260739
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1986-06-14/news/0230110250_1_doctors-physicians-american-medical
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-03-01/news/1997060012_1_foreign-medical-schools-new-doctors-american-medical

Mission Accomplished:


Dale Steinreich, a scholar who studied the AMA at the libertarian Mises Institute, has noted that while the AMA pushed a “suitable education” for doctors at the organization’s 1847 founding, the group was also then “much more open” — even in publications — about its real goal: “building a government-enforced monopoly for the purpose of dramatically increasing incomes.”
http://www.reviewjournal.com/columns-blogs/your-health/placing-blame-doctor-shortage

I don't want government taking care of Americans.

Americans1st
09-04-2013, 03:36 PM
Do you mean end protectionist, state-mandated licensing schemes? Why propose that "we take of" anybody? Are you OK with the fact that if you need a lawyer, the market is artificially limited so the price you pay is higher, or the quality you receive is lower?

Of course I read about there being a glut of lawyers. Rarely do I read about a glut of dishwashers.

Too many lawyers is a problem for who....?

In 1986, the AMA feared a glut of doctors. They took care of themselves alright.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=6902,7260739 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1129&dat=19860625&id=jq8xAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UG4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6902,7260739)
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...erican-medical (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1986-06-14/news/0230110250_1_doctors-physicians-american-medical)
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/199...erican-medical (http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-03-01/news/1997060012_1_foreign-medical-schools-new-doctors-american-medical)

Hey Princess, Affirmative Action has locked out millions of Americans from college slots and professions. No immigrant should come first BEFORE Americans. Why even have a country? Goofy so-called "Libertarians" these days are just Globalists. I hope YOU are paying the trillions in welfare, food stamps, prisons, education, bailouts, grants and other social services for your 'free market' illegal aliens and corporations. Take my money and give it to someone who comes in the country illegally?

Hypocrites.

Americans1st
09-04-2013, 03:45 PM
Do you mean end protectionist, state-mandated licensing schemes? Why propose that "we take of" anybody? Are you OK with the fact that if you need a lawyer, the market is artificially limited so the price you pay is higher, or the quality you receive is lower?

Of course I read about there being a glut of lawyers. Rarely do I read about a glut of dishwashers.

Too many lawyers is a problem for who....?

In 1986, the AMA feared a glut of doctors. They took care of themselves alright.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1129&dat=19860625&id=jq8xAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UG4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6902,7260739
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1986-06-14/news/0230110250_1_doctors-physicians-american-medical
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-03-01/news/1997060012_1_foreign-medical-schools-new-doctors-american-medical

Mission Accomplished:



I don't want government taking care of Americans.

Americans take care of Illegal aliens, other 'immigrants', wars for Israel and corporations. Trillions. Yet you are against an actual American getting something. Insane.

Americans1st
09-04-2013, 03:47 PM
Double post.

kcchiefs6465
09-04-2013, 03:49 PM
Americans take care of Illegal aliens, other 'immigrants', wars for Israel and corporations. Trillions. Yet you are against an actual American getting something. Insane.
He is against the government being involved in the scheme they call licensing. It makes prices artificially high and limits the quality. Not to mention it is unconstitutional.

Read what he said for Christ sake. It has nothing to do with whether or not immigrants get benefits. It is that the government is illegitimate in their endeavor of licensing. Also that it isn't in the interest of the people as they'd lead you to believe.

Americans1st
09-04-2013, 04:02 PM
He is against the government being involved in the scheme they call licensing. It makes prices artificially high and limits the quality. Not to mention it is unconstitutional.

Read what he said for Christ sake. It has nothing to do with whether or not immigrants get benefits. It is that the government is illegitimate in their endeavor of licensing. Also that it isn't in the interest of the people as they'd lead you to believe.

He implied that the illegal alien should be able to become a lawyer. How about we let 3 billion people into the US and let then practice or sell whatever they want without that pesky licensing. Then you guys can work for 1 cent an hour in a third world nation on steroids.

erowe1
09-04-2013, 04:06 PM
Most are. How about we take care of Americans first who would like to be a lawyer.

What do you mean "take care of"?

erowe1
09-04-2013, 04:07 PM
He implied that the illegal alien should be able to become a lawyer.

Of course they should. I should be able to hire whoever I want as a lawyer. The government has no business telling me I can only hire someone they give permission to.

Americans1st
09-04-2013, 04:12 PM
What do you mean "take care of"?

Are you trolling me? Here, take the trillions given to illegals, corporations and other immigrants and give it back to Americans...who's money it is in the first place.

kcchiefs6465
09-04-2013, 04:14 PM
He implied that the illegal alien should be able to become a lawyer. How about we let 3 billion people into the US and let then practice or sell whatever they want without that pesky licensing. Then you guys can work for 1 cent an hour in a third world nation on steroids.
How about we end the welfare state and let people do business with whoever the hell they want to.

If an "illegal" knows the law better than their American counterparts and someone wishes to obtain their services, who are you to tell the American (since we are the only people who matter) that he cannot be represented by who he chooses?

You are discriminating against Americans and you don't even know. Discriminating against my God given right to do business with whoever I so choose.

And the State monopoly on Law ought be ended yesterday. Am I really that much of a child that I cannot be able to look at my options and determine the best route for me? You speak against the welfare state (at least with regards to immigrants) but is the mentality I mentioned above not perpetuating it? I mean, I'm such an obvious fuck head I might make an error in my choices, perhaps I ought be content with cradle to grave decisions made on my behalf. Against my nature that notion is. Not to mention the government's record and countless bad decisions. Or good decisions depending on which way you look at it. Decisions not in my best interest probably would sum it up best.

If someone wants to retain the man's services, who are you to tell them they can't?

Americans1st
09-04-2013, 04:15 PM
Of course they should. I should be able to hire whoever I want as a lawyer. The government has no business telling me I can only hire someone they give permission to.

No, you do not have the right to hire an illegals alien. You do however have the responsibility to pay for any costs the illegal alien may burden the taxpayer. You guys are not real Libertarians.

erowe1
09-04-2013, 04:18 PM
Are you trolling me? Here, take the trillions given to illegals, corporations and other immigrants and give it back to Americans...who's money it is in the first place.

Seems like you're changing the subject. You can hire a lawyer without having to do all that.

erowe1
09-04-2013, 04:19 PM
No, you do not have the right to hire an illegals alien.

Of course I do. What business is it of yours who I hire?

I should be able to hire someone to do something for me without even knowing their name or anything about them. You have no right to force me to make them jump through your hoops before I do.

And as for you telling me I'm not a libertarian. Read my signature. It says I'm not one right there.

Henry Rogue
09-04-2013, 04:19 PM
But I thought all illegal aliens were lazy welfare users? Congratulations on working so hard towards a goal! That's one of the best descriptions of lawyers i have seen yet. By the way illegal aliens are regular people. Some may be lazy, others are very productive.

kcchiefs6465
09-04-2013, 04:21 PM
No, you do not have the right to hire an illegals alien. You do however have the responsibility to pay for any costs the illegal alien may burden the taxpayer. You guys are not real Libertarians.
To be clear...

The money I made off the sweat of my back cannot be spent in any way I choose?

This is your position?

Also that I have the responsibility to pay for other people?

Am I understanding you correctly?

kcchiefs6465
09-04-2013, 04:23 PM
That's one of the best descriptions of lawyers i have seen yet. By the way illegal aliens are regular people. Some may be lazy, others are very productive.
FWIW I've been nothing but impressed with their work ethic.

Americans don't want, or couldn't keep up with the jobs they routinely and happily take.

They tookr jerbs.

One day and the average American would not show back up.

Henry Rogue
09-04-2013, 04:49 PM
FWIW I've been nothing but impressed with their work ethic.

Americans don't want, or couldn't keep up with the jobs they routinely and happily take.

They tookr jerbs.

One day and the average American would not show back up.
Are you talking about lawyers or illegal immigrants? Just kidding about the question, I know you are talking about immigrants. I have worked along side many illegal immigrants over the years and have become friends with many (the ones I could communicate with. In my previous post, I took the opportunity to question whether lawyers are welfare users, although i do not think lawyers are usually lazy and some do defend us from the state. I believe the profession exemplifies abusive power.

Philhelm
09-04-2013, 06:09 PM
I appreciate your point, but how about we take care of Americans who need a good lawyer?

Access to legal representation would be greater if there were no licensure requirements.

erowe1
09-04-2013, 06:40 PM
Hey Princess, Affirmative Action has locked out millions of Americans from college slots and professions.

Baloney.

Americans1st
09-05-2013, 08:32 AM
Baloney.

Wow, so called patriots are pro Affirmative action and pro illegal alien. Yet they claim they are against regulations 'hire who they want' and government intrusion. Trillions for illegals and government denying equal access apparently is not government.

NeoLibertarians have infected this forum.

erowe1
09-05-2013, 08:40 AM
Wow, so called patriots are pro Affirmative action and pro illegal alien. Yet they claim they are against regulations 'hire who they want and government intrusion. Trillions for illegals and government denying equal access apparently is not government.

NeoLibertarians have infected this forum.

I'm not pro-affirmative action. I just don't buy into your victimhood.

eduardo89
09-05-2013, 08:41 AM
Which section of the constitution authorizes the government to regulate of the practice of law; especially the practice of federal of law?

It doesn't, states do. They're arguing that the federal prohibition on illegals getting public money is being violated because the Bar Association gets public funds.

ObiRandKenobi
09-05-2013, 08:42 AM
How about we end the welfare state and let people do business with whoever the hell they want to.

couldn't decide.

1. if we can't even enforce our border i seriously doubt we will be ending the welfare state any time soon.

or

2. for some reason i don't think letting hordes of poor people dependent on the welfare state bodes well for ending the welfare state any time soon, this lawyer-to-be being the exception.

Americans1st
09-05-2013, 08:44 AM
Baloney.

A point that is not mentioned is the demographic reality that Whites will soon be a minority. The revolution in “rights” for minorities has coincided with the revolution in immigration policy, The Collision Course Between Immigration and Affirmative Action (http://books.google.com/books?id=32hULuTl-ZMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=graham+The+Collision+Course+Between+Immigration +and+Affirmative+Action&hl=en&ei=93j2TcfnIpL6sAP85MC8Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false), as Hugh Davis Graham phrased it. It’s one thing to have affirmative action in a society that is 90% White and 10% Black. It is a whole new ball game when Whites are 65% of the population and rapidly declining. This means that when people say that they want elites to “look like America,” it means including not only Blacks, but ever increasing percentages of Latinos and Asians. Whites are expected to cede positions to “underrepresented” minorities via affirmative action while at the same time passively accepting that Asians are now being admitted to elite institutions at far higher rates than Whites. For example, 46% (http://thinkaheadca.com/resources/2009/04/new-uc-admissions-policy-gives-white-students-a-better-chance-angers-asian-american-community.html) of the undergraduates at the University of California’s flagship university, UC-Berkeley, are Asians despite the fact that Asians are only 12% of the state population. (Less noticeable because it goes unmentioned in the mainstream media is the fact that on average 24% of undergraduates at Ivy League Universities ar (http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2010/07/kevin-macdonald-jewish-overrepresentation-at-elite-universities-explained/)e Jews.) These consequences are hardly trivial for Whites.


http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2011/06/whites-feel-discriminated-against/

erowe1
09-05-2013, 08:50 AM
A point that is not mentioned is the demographic reality that Whites will soon be a minority. The revolution in “rights” for minorities has coincided with the revolution in immigration policy, The Collision Course Between Immigration and Affirmative Action (http://books.google.com/books?id=32hULuTl-ZMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=graham+The+Collision+Course+Between+Immigration +and+Affirmative+Action&hl=en&ei=93j2TcfnIpL6sAP85MC8Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false), as Hugh Davis Graham phrased it. It’s one thing to have affirmative action in a society that is 90% White and 10% Black. It is a whole new ball game when Whites are 65% of the population and rapidly declining. This means that when people say that they want elites to “look like America,” it means including not only Blacks, but ever increasing percentages of Latinos and Asians. Whites are expected to cede positions to “underrepresented” minorities via affirmative action while at the same time passively accepting that Asians are now being admitted to elite institutions at far higher rates than Whites. For example, 46% (http://thinkaheadca.com/resources/2009/04/new-uc-admissions-policy-gives-white-students-a-better-chance-angers-asian-american-community.html) of the undergraduates at the University of California’s flagship university, UC-Berkeley, are Asians despite the fact that Asians are only 12% of the state population. (Less noticeable because it goes unmentioned in the mainstream media is the fact that on average 24% of undergraduates at Ivy League Universities ar (http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2010/07/kevin-macdonald-jewish-overrepresentation-at-elite-universities-explained/)e Jews.) These consequences are hardly trivial for Whites.


http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2011/06/whites-feel-discriminated-against/

They seem trival to me.

I am a minority equal to 1/300,000,000th of the population of the USA. So are you. There's not some group identity that unites us and our interests above anyone else's just because of how much melanin we have.

juleswin
09-05-2013, 09:09 AM
Wow, so called patriots are pro Affirmative action and pro illegal alien. Yet they claim they are against regulations 'hire who they want' and government intrusion. Trillions for illegals and government denying equal access apparently is not government.

NeoLibertarians have infected this forum.

You should check out the post about logical fallacies. It is a very good read for newbies. Good for the guy, he worked hard, studied hard and got his degree all by himself. Now give him his damn license or charge him whatever the cost is so he can pay for that too.

Btw the top paragraph doesn't mean that I support lawyer profession before you go about accusing me of being a neolawyerian.

Zippyjuan
09-05-2013, 12:23 PM
Hey Princess, Affirmative Action has locked out millions of Americans from college slots and professions. No immigrant should come first BEFORE Americans. Why even have a country? Goofy so-called "Libertarians" these days are just Globalists. I hope YOU are paying the trillions in welfare, food stamps, prisons, education, bailouts, grants and other social services for your 'free market' illegal aliens and corporations. Take my money and give it to someone who comes in the country illegally?

Hypocrites.

There is no evidence that this person got in on any affirmative action program. He took no welfare that we are aware of either- he worked to put himself through law school. That sort of thing should be encouraged.


who self-financed his education at Cal Northern School of Law in Chico while working at a grocery store and publishing a self-help book in 2006.

Zippyjuan
09-05-2013, 12:26 PM
A point that is not mentioned is the demographic reality that Whites will soon be a minority. The revolution in “rights” for minorities has coincided with the revolution in immigration policy, The Collision Course Between Immigration and Affirmative Action (http://books.google.com/books?id=32hULuTl-ZMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=graham+The+Collision+Course+Between+Immigration +and+Affirmative+Action&hl=en&ei=93j2TcfnIpL6sAP85MC8Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false), as Hugh Davis Graham phrased it. It’s one thing to have affirmative action in a society that is 90% White and 10% Black. It is a whole new ball game when Whites are 65% of the population and rapidly declining. This means that when people say that they want elites to “look like America,” it means including not only Blacks, but ever increasing percentages of Latinos and Asians. Whites are expected to cede positions to “underrepresented” minorities via affirmative action while at the same time passively accepting that Asians are now being admitted to elite institutions at far higher rates than Whites. For example, 46% (http://thinkaheadca.com/resources/2009/04/new-uc-admissions-policy-gives-white-students-a-better-chance-angers-asian-american-community.html) of the undergraduates at the University of California’s flagship university, UC-Berkeley, are Asians despite the fact that Asians are only 12% of the state population. (Less noticeable because it goes unmentioned in the mainstream media is the fact that on average 24% of undergraduates at Ivy League Universities ar (http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2010/07/kevin-macdonald-jewish-overrepresentation-at-elite-universities-explained/)e Jews.) These consequences are hardly trivial for Whites.


http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2011/06/whites-feel-discriminated-against/

Ah. Now we clearly see your agenda.

Henry Rogue
09-05-2013, 05:44 PM
You should check out the post about logical fallacies. It is a very good read for newbies. Good for the guy, he worked hard, studied hard and got his degree all by himself. Now give him his damn license or charge him whatever the cost is so he can pay for that too.

Btw the top paragraph doesn't mean that I support lawyer profession before you go about accusing me of being a neolawyerian.Jules, I don't think the new guy ever mentioned lawyers, I did and I am most definitely not on his side of this discussion.

Henry Rogue
09-05-2013, 05:50 PM
Ah. Now we clearly see your agenda. Yeah he divides people into groups by race and creates a us against them conflict. very sad. I have no problem becoming a minority, I feel like I have been one for a long time, a two party system will do that to a person.

noneedtoaggress
09-05-2013, 06:21 PM
He's essentially arguing against Affirmative Action based on racial grounds while arguing for it on nationalist grounds.

You can't hire/accept whoever you want as a worker/student according to their abilities you know.

Scrapmo
09-05-2013, 06:50 PM
Did he really just claim that affirmative action is keeping white people out of college? As if there are a shortage of worthless degree being churned out by the paper mills.

Americans1st
09-06-2013, 10:05 AM
They seem trival to me.

I am a minority equal to 1/300,000,000th of the population of the USA. So are you. There's not some group identity that unites us and our interests above anyone else's just because of how much melanin we have.

You do not understand the real world. Whites are discriminated against in education, jobs and business. You PC jab of melanin aside.

erowe1
09-06-2013, 10:08 AM
You do not understand the real world. Whites are discriminated against in education, jobs and business. You PC jab of melanin aside.

Let's say that's true. Do you think it's wrong?

If so, then why isn't discriminating against Mexicans also wrong?

Americans1st
09-06-2013, 10:16 AM
Did he really just claim that affirmative action is keeping white people out of college? As if there are a shortage of worthless degree being churned out by the paper mills.

Nice strawman. And cowardly childish Rep comment. Are you suggesting it's okay for government to discriminate on the basis of race?

Your rep comment, "you have no understanding of what libertarianism is nor do you have any manners."

I was involved in the Libertarian party in the late 70's as a teen. We then did not support quotas, affirmative action or illegal aliens. We did not support businesses breaking the law and getting trillions in "bailouts". Nor corporations that murdered and poisoned people. They were criminals as they stepped upon the rights of other Americans. And we did not see White people as the bogeyman. What we have today is Neo-Libertarianism.

erowe1
09-06-2013, 10:19 AM
We did not support businesses breaking the law

Did you support laws telling employers they had to get the federal government's permission before they could hire someone?

I'd love to see some evidence of the LP in the 70's supporting that.


What we have today is Neo-Libertarianism.

If you mean that as opposed to paleo-libertarianism, then you would do well to study what paleo-libertarians believe. They're against immigration restrictions.

VoluntaryAmerican
09-06-2013, 10:24 AM
NeoLibertarians have infected this forum.

http://i.imgur.com/Y3KmPAV.gif

The Free Hornet
09-06-2013, 01:31 PM
Did he really just claim that affirmative action is keeping white people out of college? As if there are a shortage of worthless degree being churned out by the paper mills.

I would take it as axiomatic that affirmative action harms some groups.


Public universities in California, Texas and Florida showed uniform gains in their Asian American populations after removing racial factors from their admissions policies, the study found, indicating that Asian Americans are hurt most by affirmative action in education.

http://www.publicasian.com/study-asian-americans-hurt-most-by-affirmative-action-in-education/

But also, I think it is orthogonal to the issue that professional licesning is a scam. "fights to become California lawyer" makes as much sense as "fights to become California dishwasher".

Americans1st
09-06-2013, 01:32 PM
Let's say that's true. Do you think it's wrong?

If so, then why isn't discriminating against Mexicans also wrong?

Mexicans can get their whatever in Mexico. Why do you people even live in America? You hate people, the Constitution and the Republic. Go live somewhere where the NeoLibertarian Max Max fantasy is a reality.

kcchiefs6465
09-06-2013, 01:35 PM
Mexicans can get their whatever in Mexico. Why do you people even live in America? You hate people, the Constitution and the Republic. Go live somewhere where the NeoLibertarian Max Max fantasy is a reality.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC5NJQiOpRs

Americans1st
09-06-2013, 01:35 PM
Did you support laws telling employers they had to get the federal government's permission before they could hire someone?

I'd love to see some evidence of the LP in the 70's supporting that.



If you mean that as opposed to paleo-libertarianism, then you would do well to study what paleo-libertarians believe. They're against immigration restrictions.

There already have to have that permission. It's called AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.

Americans1st
09-06-2013, 01:41 PM
http://i.imgur.com/Y3KmPAV.gif

You'll be laughing when all these immigrants vote for higher taxes, more wars, more regulation and less Constitutional Rights.

noneedtoaggress
09-06-2013, 01:54 PM
Mexicans can get their whatever in Mexico. Why do you people even live in America? You hate people, the Constitution and the Republic. Go live somewhere where the NeoLibertarian Max Max fantasy is a reality.

So the reason you live in America is so that you can get special privileges from the government and use govt force to control who your neighbors are allowed to associate with?

How did you take a stance against discriminating against people to characterize someone who "hate people"? Or are Mexicans not people because they aren't Americans? What about the Americans who choose to associate with people you don't want them to? Are they still people or are they just as subhuman because they don't agree with you?

Scrapmo
09-06-2013, 05:06 PM
Nice strawman. And cowardly childish Rep comment. Are you suggesting it's okay for government to discriminate on the basis of race?

Your rep comment, "you have no understanding of what libertarianism is nor do you have any manners."

I was involved in the Libertarian party in the late 70's as a teen. We then did not support quotas, affirmative action or illegal aliens. We did not support businesses breaking the law and getting trillions in "bailouts". Nor corporations that murdered and poisoned people. They were criminals as they stepped upon the rights of other Americans. And we did not see White people as the bogeyman. What we have today is Neo-Libertarianism.

What strawman? No where did I suggest that affirmative action was acceptable. You said that affirmative action has kept millions out of college, which is blatant bullshit. I have not known anyone who has not been able to get a college education if they wanted one. The requirements to get in are a complete joke for most schools. As to the rest your diatribe, no one here that I have seen believes in those things.

You got the neg rep because you are truculent. You fail to express yourself without being pugnacious and boorish, which is all the more pathetic considering your are advanced enough in years to have been in the libertarian party since the 70's and it is apparent that no where in that time have you assembled any wisdom or grace.

JustinTime
09-06-2013, 06:33 PM
You'll be laughing when all these immigrants vote for higher taxes, more wars, more regulation and less Constitutional Rights.

I tried to make this point a few months back, not many would listen. Its tough enough getting whites to wake up and grasp the concept of freedom and limited government, but with the demographics going the way they are, there will be no hope.

Cutlerzzz
09-06-2013, 06:56 PM
Most are. How about we take care of Americans first who would like to be a lawyer.

Who are we?

thoughtomator
09-06-2013, 07:17 PM
For anyone who actually cares about what the Constitution says, one of the few actual enumerated powers of the federal government is to regulate immigration and naturalization.

As a result, the one genuine outrage I see here is the feds' obstinate refusal to do what they have sworn to do. That is the offense against we the people.

kcchiefs6465
09-06-2013, 07:25 PM
For anyone who actually cares about what the Constitution says, one of the few actual enumerated powers of the federal government is to regulate immigration and naturalization.

As a result, the one genuine outrage I see here is the feds' obstinate refusal to do what they have sworn to do. That is the offense against we the people.
Where in the Constitution does it grant the government authorization to tell me who I can and can't interact with?

Who I can and can't do business with?

kcchiefs6465
09-06-2013, 07:26 PM
You'll be laughing when all these immigrants vote for higher taxes, more wars, more regulation and less Constitutional Rights.


I tried to make this point a few months back, not many would listen. Its tough enough getting whites to wake up and grasp the concept of freedom and limited government, but with the demographics going the way they are, there will be no hope.


Naturalization Act of 1798 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1798)


The Naturalization Act, passed by Congress on June 18, 1798 (1 Stat. 566), increased the amount of time necessary for immigrants to become naturalized citizens in the United States from five to fourteen years. Although it was passed under the guise of protecting national security, most historians conclude it was really intended to decrease the number of voters who disagreed with the Federalist political party.[1] At the time, most immigrants (namely Irish and French) supported Thomas Jefferson and the Democratic-Republicans, the political opponents of the Federalists. This act was repealed in 1802 by the Naturalization Law of 1802.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

thoughtomator
09-06-2013, 07:34 PM
Where in the Constitution does it grant the government authorization to tell me who I can and can't interact with?

Who I can and can't do business with?

Right next to the other strawmen.

kcchiefs6465
09-06-2013, 07:44 PM
Right next to the other strawmen.
It is a strawman that you believe the government has the authority to grant who I can and can't do business with? Or at least to stifle the ease at which I wish to do business with people.

Or that you believe the government has the authority to "irregulate" my business by arbitrarily declaring I must have such and such documentation before obtaining their services?

You think that that is in the spirit of the document? That that was the original intent behind the clause on who can and can't become president?

I'm trying to get a feel behind your xenophobia. The first Naturalization Act was brought about because of an immigrant's tendency to align with Thomas Jefferson and other Anti-Federalists.

But they tookerjerbs, right?

What would satisfy you? (and this isn't just directed towards you) A national biometric ID to prove who is and isn't a citizen? More strict mandates on business owners to be sure the people they hire are here legally? A giant wall surrounding the continental border? Stopping everyone of a certain hue and making sure they have papers or other proof of residency? What level of tyranny is acceptable to you?

I have this feeling that you will be a coward and not answer this, either. I've been wrong before though.

JustinTime
09-06-2013, 07:58 PM
Naturalization Act of 1798 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1798)



Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Whats that supposed to prove? That immigration powers have always been a tool by which to change demographics to favor a certain faction? Duh, whaddaya think Ive been saying?

Today immigration is used to favor the "one party system", you know, 50% of the Republicans and 90% of Democrats who want an ignorant and totally dependent majority who will keep voting for them. Who worship guys like Obama and simply support whatever he does, 'cuz if we don't its like all, racist 'n stuff.

Theres nothing good in it for those of us who want a constitutionally limited government.

LibForestPaul
09-06-2013, 08:09 PM
Of course they should. I should be able to hire whoever I want as a lawyer. The government has no business telling me I can only hire someone they give permission to.

Unfortunately, at least for the courts, the field is their field, with their rules, their procedures, and their players. You just get to pick a player, nothing more.

kcchiefs6465
09-06-2013, 08:22 PM
Whats that supposed to prove? That immigration powers have always been a tool by which to change demographics to favor a certain faction? Duh, whaddaya think Ive been saying?

Today immigration is used to favor the "one party system", you know, 50% of the Republicans and 90% of Democrats who want an ignorant and totally dependent majority who will keep voting for them. Who worship guys like Obama and simply support whatever he does, 'cuz if we don't its like all, racist 'n stuff.

Theres nothing good in it for those of us who want a constitutionally limited government.
That contrary to what you might believe, not every immigrant is coming here to be a welfare whore and that some would even be receptive to liberty. The problem lies in the welfare state.

You think people are coming here because the streets are paved with proverbial gold? Because of how free our country is? The streets are paved in debt. They are coming for low wage, high hour, physically demanding jobs that a good 99.9% of the country could not or would not do. (even if the wages were higher) They are fleeing the death squads unleashed on their peoples.

Riddle me this, why is it this man who by this account paid for his schooling and is a hard working honest individual supposed to be deported or is refused a license (land of the free... tsk tsk) when we harbor terrorists, granted Nazis citizenship, and allow truly wicked men to walk freely with a new identity and life? Something seems askew to me.

I asked this question above and would very much like to hear your response.


What would satisfy you? (and this isn't just directed towards you) A national biometric ID to prove who is and isn't a citizen? More strict mandates on business owners to be sure the people they hire are here legally? A giant wall surrounding the continental border? Stopping everyone of a certain hue and making sure they have papers or other proof of residency? What level of tyranny is acceptable to you?

I'll accept your premise on face value. Immigration is ruining this country. What do you feel ought to be done to combat it and how does that coincide with American liberty?

Immigration wouldn't be a problem if we built a giant dome over the continental US. Obviously you aren't for that. But there is a level of liberty that must be sacrificed to have an impact on illegal immigration. I'm just wondering what amount you find acceptable. I'd also be curious as to why you'd think they wouldn't usurp more power once granted the ability to check everyone for their national ID card, for example. (not that you are or aren't for a national ID card, just an example)

LibForestPaul
09-06-2013, 09:04 PM
Riddle me this, why is it this man who by this account paid for his schooling and is a hard working honest individual supposed to be deported or is refused a license (land of the free... tsk tsk)
You left out some other facts, namely a man who broke the law, and continues to flaught the laws of this great nation. Laws that have been enshrined in the basic legal document birthing this nation.

kcchiefs6465
09-06-2013, 09:19 PM
You left out some other facts, namely a man who broke the law, and continues to flaught the laws of this great nation. Laws that have been enshrined in the basic legal document birthing this nation.
There are people who broke the Natural Law. War criminals or terrorists will not be deported. Extradition requests are laughed at. Where is the Justice or sanity in who they choose to protect and who is sent back?

People always ignore the point that for these statutes to be enforced, American rights must be infringed upon. Do the ends justify the means?

The wall aint just for them. People would be wise to recognize that while so steadfastly convicted on solutions.

There was a paragraph of questions that I welcome you to answer. How should we combat this? (illegal immigration)

ETA: I retracted a statement on Nazis being given asylum. I don't have my references handy but I think I mixed up two different things. I apologize in advance. I know there were no qualms on working with a few scientists but I don't think they were ever actually granted citizenship.

Ender
09-06-2013, 09:35 PM
You left out some other facts, namely a man who broke the law, and continues to flaught the laws of this great nation. Laws that have been enshrined in the basic legal document birthing this nation.

The word is "flaunt".

And BTW- the basic legal document birthing this nation is the Declaration, which says:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

This man broke no natural law and he deserves to pursue Life, Liberty, and Happiness.

Southron
09-06-2013, 11:16 PM
This man broke no natural law and he deserves to pursue Life, Liberty, and Happiness.

And he has every right to pursue that in the country of his citizenship.

JustinTime
09-07-2013, 08:41 AM
That contrary to what you might believe, not every immigrant is coming here to be a welfare whore and that some would even be receptive to liberty. The problem lies in the welfare state.

You think people are coming here because the streets are paved with proverbial gold? Because of how free our country is? The streets are paved in debt. They are coming for low wage, high hour, physically demanding jobs that a good 99.9% of the country could not or would not do.

Low-wage and hardworking, sure, but also heavily dependent on government programs. People always talk as if they are mutually exclusive.

The powers that be don't give a eff, as long as you're dependent on government programs, feel free to work you ass off.


(even if the wages were higher) They are fleeing the death squads unleashed on their peoples.

They are bringing death squads here with the gang activity, I hate to be cold hearted, but keep it all south of the border. The only, and I mean ONLY thing the US should do is end of ridiculous war on drugs, but that for our own sake and not theirs.


Riddle me this, why is it this man who by this account paid for his schooling and is a hard working honest individual supposed to be deported or is refused a license (land of the free... tsk tsk) when we harbor terrorists, granted Nazis citizenship, and allow truly wicked men to walk freely with a new identity and life? Something seems askew to me.

I have no problem with this specific guy, if we didn't have untold millions already in the country illegally I wouldn't even be having this conversation, Id say "Absolutely, let him stay and practice."


I'll accept your premise on face value. Immigration is ruining this country. What do you feel ought to be done to combat it and how does that coincide with American liberty?

Just enforce the laws already on the books, as the Constitution allows the Federal Government to do. Stop people at the border, when people are found to be here illegally, send them home. It wont magically solve the problem overnight, but after a while things will get better.

erowe1
09-07-2013, 09:16 AM
Just enforce the laws already on the books, as the Constitution allows the Federal Government to do.

You think the Constitution authorizes the federal government to make employers tell them who they hire, and not hire people without their permission?

And if it does, you're fine with that?

Reason
09-07-2013, 10:21 AM
Hey Princess, Affirmative Action has locked out millions of Americans from college slots and professions. No immigrant should come first BEFORE Americans. Why even have a country? Goofy so-called "Libertarians" these days are just Globalists. I hope YOU are paying the trillions in welfare, food stamps, prisons, education, bailouts, grants and other social services for your 'free market' illegal aliens and corporations. Take my money and give it to someone who comes in the country illegally?

Hypocrites.

There is no such thing as a "state".

It's a fantasy.

tod evans
09-07-2013, 10:36 AM
How about drowning all the lawyers and judges we currently have and starting over?

Cleaner44
09-07-2013, 10:58 AM
Hey Princess, Affirmative Action has locked out millions of Americans from college slots and professions. No immigrant should come first BEFORE Americans. Why even have a country? Goofy so-called "Libertarians" these days are just Globalists. I hope YOU are paying the trillions in welfare, food stamps, prisons, education, bailouts, grants and other social services for your 'free market' illegal aliens and corporations. Take my money and give it to someone who comes in the country illegally?

Hypocrites.

The true source of your hatred should be the socialist system that takes our money and distributes it to other people, both citizens and non-citizens. Your Americans first ideology borders on nationalist white pride more than libertarian philosophy as your posts are written.

I also have no sympathy for illegal aliens that take our tax dollars and we certainly have many of them here in Arizona. I do not respect criminals and illegal aliens are criminals.

The number one problem is that we have socialism in our nation. If it were not for the socialists redistributing our money, then there would not be a problem of Mexicans getting your tax dollars before Americans.

The number two problem is that we make it too difficult for people to come here legally. The only reason we have such an illegal alien problem is because our government fails to allow people to move here legally. I do not fear immigrants, I just don't want to financially support them against my will.

If we can shed the burden of socialism, immigrants should not be any problem.

JustinTime
09-07-2013, 12:19 PM
You think the Constitution authorizes the federal government to make employers tell them who they hire, and not hire people without their permission?

And if it does, you're fine with that?

Thanks for taking my post out of context. I mentioned what the Federal Govt can do. Read my post again.

erowe1
09-07-2013, 12:34 PM
Thanks for taking my post out of context. I mentioned what the Federal Govt can do. Read my post again.

I reread your post and I don't see what you're talking about.

So the kind of enforcement you think the feds should do doesn't involve trying to stop employers from hiring illegal immigrants? Because that's essentially what the laws already on the books are.

Ender
09-07-2013, 12:40 PM
And he has every right to pursue that in the country of his citizenship.

And, he has every right to pursue it here. This "illegal" stuff is a fallacy. Under this def all the forefathers were illegals and we should all be deported, except for the Indians.

The only reason immigrants became "illegal" in the first place was because of who they might vote for. It's always been political motives and has nothing to do with the good of the country.

The country has always prospered with an influx of immigrants- just remove entitlements and let people add to the economy.

Americans1st
09-09-2013, 12:28 PM
He's essentially arguing against Affirmative Action based on racial grounds while arguing for it on nationalist grounds.

You can't hire/accept whoever you want as a worker/student according to their abilities you know.

No you cannot hire illegals aliens, Unless you want to pay for all the social services they use. Seems to me you think AA is a wonderful idea. You also seem to believe that Americans should not only come last in their own Country of which they build and paid for but support foreign nationals who come legally or illegally.

Americans1st
09-09-2013, 12:39 PM
And, he has every right to pursue it here. This "illegal" stuff is a fallacy. Under this def all the forefathers were illegals and we should all be deported, except for the Indians.

The only reason immigrants became "illegal" in the first place was because of who they might vote for. It's always been political motives and has nothing to do with the good of the country.

The country has always prospered with an influx of immigrants- just remove entitlements and let people add to the economy.

The oountry is not prospering with the current influx of "immigrants" do not add to the economy. How laughable. Unless you're one of the business owners who want cheap labor and have the rest of us support his payroll with welfare. Past immigration was legal and work was available. There are millions of unemployed Americans but I guess you don't give a shit about them.

The forefathers build America not the native Americans. And most Native Americans are against immigration of any kind. Not just political motives but economic ones including jobs and the national debt. The republic will fall with this new mass immigration pushed by Zionists or Globalist if you prefer for your PC ears.

After that you can kiss goodby any Libertarian principles remaining in America.

erowe1
09-09-2013, 12:44 PM
No you cannot hire illegals aliens, Unless you want to pay for all the social services they use.

1) Does this rule apply to hiring US citizens too?

2) Going with this rule, should I have to prove to prospective employers that I'm not an illegal immigrant before I can work for them? How should I go about proving that?

Americans1st
09-09-2013, 12:49 PM
1) Does this rule apply to hiring US citizens too?

2) Going with this rule, should I have to prove to prospective employers that I'm not an illegal immigrant before I can work for them? How should I go about proving that?

Here's what you do. Hire the illegals and pay for the thousands of social services they use. And stop making the rest of us support you.

Since Americans PAYED THE TAXES they should receive government services. Some nutty "libertarians" here want illegals to get services before Americans.

tod evans
09-09-2013, 01:14 PM
Hey ya'll..........

Have you stopped to think that the current members of the bar are the folks who have given us both immigration policy and "social services"?

Instead of bickering about some dude who's not yet a "lawyer" why not attack the lawyers and their ol' boys club the bar-assoc......

Ender
09-09-2013, 02:47 PM
The oountry is not prospering with the current influx of "immigrants" do not add to the economy. How laughable. Unless you're one of the business owners who want cheap labor and have the rest of us support his payroll with welfare. Past immigration was legal and work was available. There are millions of unemployed Americans but I guess you don't give a shit about them.

The forefathers build America not the native Americans. And most Native Americans are against immigration of any kind. Not just political motives but economic ones including jobs and the national debt. The republic will fall with this new mass immigration pushed by Zionists or Globalist if you prefer for your PC ears.

After that you can kiss goodby any Libertarian principles remaining in America.

I don't give a shit about people who support a broken system of "fair wages, unions, etc." As a liberty lover and a believer in the free-market, I should be able to pay an employee what ever I can afford. If it's not enough, they should be allowed to find better work elsewhere.

The immigrants I know are all working their asses off for the very rich and doing jobs that no one else around here will do. Everyone likes to deny that the average American won't do house-keeping/gardening/landscaping/repair/ etc but they won't and they don't. There are 100s of jobs here that no white guy will take. Plus Hispanics are the hardest workers I know. If I ever wanted a housekeeper or gardener, believe me, an Hispanic would be the first on my list.

This hatred of present day immigrants is no different than previous history. They have always been hated, The Irish of the 1800's were treated like scum.

The only thing that has to be done about immigrants is to take the word "illegal" off and get rid of entitlements.

Period.

And, BTW- the native Americans were responsible for the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution; these ideas did NOT come from any forefathers.

Danke
09-09-2013, 03:34 PM
There are 100s of jobs here that no white guy will take.

Racist much? Why work when guys like you support more and more hand outs for not working?

Danke
09-09-2013, 03:36 PM
And, BTW- the native Americans were responsible for the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution; these ideas did NOT come from any forefathers.

You really have no idea of what you're talking about.

Ender
09-09-2013, 04:25 PM
Racist much? Why work when guys like you support more and more hand outs for not working?


WHA?

Did you miss the part about:

NO ENTITLEMENTS?

Dude, get out of the Matrix.
And BTW- the service industry is big where I live and NO ONE will take the jobs except the Hispanics. Just a fact.

Ender
09-09-2013, 04:32 PM
You really have no idea of what you're talking about.

Really.


At least 300 years prior to the passage of the United States Constitution, North American democracy began with the Iroquois Confederacy's Law of the Great Peace. The Cherokee belong to the Iroquois language family of eastern North America.

The representative democracy of the Iroquois was extensively studied and praised by Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, who proposed it as the basis for the United States Constitution. In a backhanded compliment at the Albany Congress in 1754, Franklin said he found it hard to believe that the 13 colonies could not agree to a political union when "Six Nations of ignorant savages" had formed one.

http://www.cherokee.org/OurGovernment/Commissions/ConstitutionConvention.aspx



Public school edumacation doesn't do anyone much good; learn to study outside the box and realize that almost everything you have been taught is a lie.

Danke
09-09-2013, 04:46 PM
Really.



Public school edumacation doesn't do anyone much good; learn to study outside the box and realize that almost everything you have been taught is a lie.

I have studied this myth before.

Danke
09-09-2013, 04:48 PM
WHA?

Did you miss the part about:

NO ENTITLEMENTS?

Dude, get out of the Matrix.
And BTW- the service industry is big where I live and NO ONE will take the jobs except the Hispanics. Just a fact.

Of course, "no white guy will work" only Hispanics will save the day. Blah blah blah blah.

Ender
09-09-2013, 05:03 PM
Of course, "no white guy will work" only Hispanics will save the day. Blah blah blah blah.

Well, come on over and visit our service industry and get a job. There are lots of jobs for maids, landscaping, and maintenance, as well as Hotel front desk and hospitality jobs. These jobs pay decent wages.

99.9% of the people working are Hispanic or Filipino, because they are the only ones who apply.

One of my friends has a in-home health care business and could not fill ANY of those jobs.

Maybe where you are living the average American is begging for service jobs, but it ain't so here.

Ender
09-09-2013, 05:04 PM
I have studied this myth before.

Not a myth.

Danke
09-09-2013, 05:16 PM
Those evil lazy white guys.

Ender
09-09-2013, 07:19 PM
Those evil lazy white guys.

Your words, not mine.

I think we will just have to agree on surfing, Danke. ;)

Danke
09-09-2013, 07:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5OPMI13qng

Zippyjuan
09-10-2013, 01:39 PM
Here's what you do. Hire the illegals and pay for the thousands of social services they use. And stop making the rest of us support you.

Since Americans PAYED THE TAXES they should receive government services. Some nutty "libertarians" here want illegals to get services before Americans.

If you hired an illegal alien, unless you are paying in cash, you and the employee ARE paying taxes. They also pay sales taxes, gasoline taxes, property taxes (if they rent a place to stay, they are paying the homeowner's property taxes which is included in their rent). If you hire one, they won't be needing welfare anymore so you will be reducing that (and increasing the taxes they pay). If the problem is not paying taxes and collecting welfare, perhaps we should deport all people on welfare- reguardless of their nationality or race. (as a side note, states, not the Federal government deternines who is elgible for welfare- illegal aliens are NOT elgible for federal programs like Medicare and Social Security).


The man in the original post did not take any welfare. He worked hard to put himself through law school and wants a job. Perhaps it is better he goes on welfare instead?