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View Full Version : The education system: a symptom more than a cause




Legend1104
08-26-2013, 10:19 PM
I want to start this by saying that I am a history teacher myself, but I am in no way trying to justify my jobs existence. I dislike the current system of schooling and I am in school working on my masters so that I can move on to a different career, but I do hear many today that talk about our failing schools and how our schools lag behind other schools around the world etc. and want to address this briefly because I believe that much of the debate is on a symptom of our problem in America, rather than the real causes.

Before I make my point, I want to stress that I am against government monopolized schools, support competition in schools, and disagree with the taking of tax money to support the school system. Many Libertarians though will often point at those and say, "If we just broke the monopoly of government schools and allowed privatization then we would solve the problem." I don't think it is that simple. I believe that it would help and many states would see some improvement, but I think that it would not solve the problem because, ultimately, the problem is not with the schools themselves. Granted, there are really REALLY terrible schools that are truly a big problem. Unions are horrible institutions in the teaching world (and other fields). There are bad teachers that suck as educators. As a teacher I can tell you from first hand experience that school systems today only care about passing the test, having low dropout numbers, having low failure rates, and gaining a high rating. I have been told personally that I have too many failing students so I am doing something wrong. I was told not to give homework because no one will turn it in. I have heard many educators and administrators say that we need to "just pass them so they can be someone else problem," and it is a fact that teachers are pressured with threats of losing jobs to raise their test scores. There is no questioning these facts, and they are destructive to education. Some of these problems could be improved or fixed by having competition and breaking the monopoly, but it would not have the impact that many believe it would because, once again, it does not solve the real problem. Neither does the solutions of many non-libertarians such as paying teachers more, put more money into the schools, and using more technology.

What then do I think the real fundamental problem with the school system is?. Nothing. Everything that I have mentioned above is not the source of the problem, but rather they are attempts to solve the underlying problem, albeit destructive and flawed attempts. That problem is the welfare state. We live in a society that is inculcated with a government that pushes the idea that all are entitled to everything and that no one should be denied anything. The welfare state has destroyed two things in our society. These two things are the American work ethic and the value of education. With these destructions, the school system soon fell apart.

The American work ethic has been a driving force for most of America's history. It drove immigrants to this country to work themselves nearly to death for the hope of a better life for themselves and their posterity. The common man understood that life required hard work, and he was willing to do what it took.

The value of education does not exist in this country anymore. A high school education is "free" so it is thought, and everyone is "entitled to a quality education." These lies, on top of the "give me, give me" culture of a welfare state have destroyed the value of education in this country. The average student does not see the importance of education because everything is given too him. If he fails to acquire and education, then it is ok because the government will take care of him. His life will be just as good without education in his eyes. That is exactly why other countries education systems seem so much better than ours. In some countries, if you are lucky enough to get into a school then you know that you have to work very hard to stay in because it is not a guarantee that you will graduate. Plus, your life becomes infinitely better with an education in those countries because many don't have that same educational opportunities. Without one, you will work in a sweat shop or on a rice field for meager pay and a crude existence. The government will not bail you out if you fail. As a teacher I am required to be a cheerleader to encourage students to want to learn. How perverse! Many students don't care because, honestly to them, what is the point?

This is why schools today push testing, not failing students, dumbing down material, using increased technology to increase interest in learning, and putting more money into schools as the major effort to fix the system. Without a work ethic or an understanding of the value of education, schools have to rely on these to try to motivate students to learn. Poor schools, lack of technology, or material that is too difficult for todays students are not the big problems. As a point in case look back to the 1800s where students often were in one room schools with teachers not holding any type of degree in education, and the ages of students could range from 5 to 13 year old. Yet, many of our nations brightest were able to succeed. Look at the standards of exams and tests from schools around the 1880s through the early part of the last century and you can also see the high standards teachers had on students. Also, this is why destroying government monopoly and increased competition will not solve the problem because, whether it is with charter, private, religious, or other types of schools, the work ethic in America is still diminished and the value of education is still nil. Sure some improvement will occur because with competition you will bring back some value in education because parents will compete to put their children in the best schools, but overall society will not change enough to merit an adequate level of success. This is why colleges still have better success. Not everyone gets a degree, college can be harder to get into, and graduating is not a guarantee, so a degree still has a modicum of value because it can, by it's acquisition, can dramatically improve ones life far above not receiving a degree (although not all degrees are equal). Alas, in primary schools this no longer exists. The welfare state will still continue to ravage the American spirit and most students will continue to not care about fail or educating themselves.

To sum, if we want to save our education in America, we need to destroy the monopoly of schools and create competition; this is true, but ultimately, to win the day, the welfare state must be destroyed. Bring back the value of an education and resurrect the working ethic in this country, and success will reign again.

noneedtoaggress
08-26-2013, 10:42 PM
OP have you ever heard of John Taylor Gatto?

Or Unschooling?

IMHO, educational models and school institutions are old remnants of industrialization. Compulsory public school system originated in Prussian when the King decided to educate the masses (read: indoctrinate them to be loyal to the King over the aristocracy and to give the King a steady stream of soldiers). It was based on seeing educating human beings as similar to assembling objects in a factory. You stuff a kid into a room 8 hours a day and the biggest lesson they're likely to get from it is "school sucks and learning is boring". Kids have an innate drive to discover, understand, and tinker with the world around them foster that drive and you'll equip them to educate themselves for life.

This old school model is going to be completely undermined with technological improvements and the internet, too. It's no longer going to be necessary to organize the way we have. Our educational institutions would probably be light years ahead of themselves already if it weren't for the state's monopolization.

heavenlyboy34
08-26-2013, 10:51 PM
Thanks for your thoughts, OP, but the overwhelming majority of evidence indicates otherwise. Kids respond to competent teaching and environments well.

Natural Citizen
08-26-2013, 10:53 PM
Kids respond to competent teaching and environments well.

One of the biggest issues is that youth just don't know how to research or how to study correctly. I blame the market as much as I do the welfare meme. Both are part of the problem.

I just saw a Time Warner high speed cable ad with the motto of get this internet so your kids can get their homework done and watch more tv.

Legend1104
08-26-2013, 11:36 PM
OP have you ever heard of John Taylor Gatto?

Or Unschooling?

IMHO, educational models and school institutions are old remnants of industrialization. Compulsory public school system originated in Prussian when the King decided to educate the masses (read: indoctrinate them to be loyal to the King over the aristocracy and to give the King a steady stream of soldiers). It was based on seeing educating human beings as similar to assembling objects in a factory. You stuff a kid into a room 8 hours a day and the biggest lesson they're likely to get from it is "school sucks and learning is boring". Kids have an innate drive to discover, understand, and tinker with the world around them foster that drive and you'll equip them to educate themselves for life.

This old school model is going to be completely undermined with technological improvements and the internet, too. It's no longer going to be necessary to organize the way we have. Our educational institutions would probably be light years ahead of themselves already if it weren't for the state's monopolization.

I have heard of but haven't done much study or reading from him.


Thanks for your thoughts, OP, but the overwhelming majority of evidence indicates otherwise. Kids respond to competent teaching and environments well.

Don't misunderstand me. I am in no way saying that the current method of teaching is the most successful or best. My main conjecture is that schools biggest failure is not due to the method, good or bad, but due to the lack of a value our society has in education. In otherwords, the car is better than the horse in getting around, but if the driver is not willing to put the effort into getting somewhere, then the method is pointless. Kids may respond better to competent teaching, but a large majority just simply don't care. As a child learning is new and exciting and they desire to learn, but as they grow they begin to lose sight of it's value and no one wants something that they think has no value. I have personally taught over 1,000 students and can tell you from my evidence and observation that this is the biggest problem.

cjm
08-26-2013, 11:42 PM
Thanks for your thoughts, OP, but the overwhelming majority of evidence indicates otherwise. Kids respond to competent teaching and environments well.

Not sure if you missed the point HB or if you dismissed it. I don't think the overwhelming majority of evidence indicates that students will learn more/better with "free" competent teaching. I agree with the OP (if I understand him correctly) and take the position that students must have some skin in the game. Too many people these days speak of "getting an education" with the same tone that they would say, "getting a sun tan." Education isn't something that happens to you or that's "got," it's something that's earned. Putting a price on education would be just as valuable if not more valuable than introducing competition between (government) schools.

Legend1104
08-26-2013, 11:45 PM
Not sure if you missed the point HB or if you dismissed it. I don't think the overwhelming majority of evidence indicates that students will learn more/better with "free" competent teaching. I agree with the OP (if I understand him correctly) and take the position that students must have some skin in the game. Too many people these days speak of "getting an education" with the same tone that they would say, "getting a sun tan." Education isn't something that happens to you or that's "got," it's something that's earned. Putting a price on education would be just as valuable if not more valuable than introducing competition between (government) schools.

You understand me exactly. Thanks.

cjm
08-26-2013, 11:54 PM
I have heard of but haven't done much study or reading from him.

You need to read his magnum opus, Gatto gets it: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/prologue.htm

"Bianca, You Animal, Shut Up!"

heavenlyboy34
08-26-2013, 11:56 PM
Not sure if you missed the point HB or if you dismissed it. I don't think the overwhelming majority of evidence indicates that students will learn more/better with "free" competent teaching. I agree with the OP (if I understand him correctly) and take the position that students must have some skin in the game. Too many people these days speak of "getting an education" with the same tone that they would say, "getting a sun tan." Education isn't something that happens to you or that's "got," it's something that's earned. Putting a price on education would be just as valuable if not more valuable than introducing competition between (government) schools.
You think incorrectly. Read The Underground History Of American Education. Free here: http://johntaylorgatto.com/underground/index.htm and The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America. Free here: http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/

cjm
08-27-2013, 12:05 AM
You think incorrectly. Read The Underground History Of American Education. Free here: http://johntaylorgatto.com/underground/index.htm and The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America. Free here: http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/

I have read it. I own hardcopies and have read everything that Gatto has published (and I have distributed much of it as well). Gatto is definitely on the side that says education can be improved, but I agree with the OP that even if schooling were super-awesome, as long as it's "free" it will still be a failure to many.

ETA: I've read the Iserbyt stuff too.

FindLiberty
08-27-2013, 08:34 AM
Plan on spending a few hours (5+) watching John Taylor Gatto: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL463AA90FD04EC7A2

Try "SchoolSucks" perspective from a former History teacher, try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okPnDZ1Txlo

and for more interesting history lessons, try looking around here: http://www.tragedyandhope.com/