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CaseyJones
08-21-2013, 02:56 PM
http://www.arlnow.com/2013/08/21/young-republican-event-produces-spat-over-snowden/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okDy7tVpQ-M


Is NSA leaker Edward Snowden a heroic defender of liberty or a reckless turncoat?

That debate has caused a rift within the Arlington Falls Church Young Republicans, after the group hosted constitutional scholar, civil libertarian and attorney Bruce Fein at an event in Clarendon.

Fein — who served as an Associate Deputy Attorney General in the Reagan Administration and called for the impeachment of President Obama in 2011 — is an outspoken supporter of Snowden and his disclosure of massive government surveillance programs. He also serves as the attorney for Snowden’s father.

Fein compared Snowden to Paul Revere at the Monday night event. That angered one woman in the audience, whose husband is on active duty in the military.

“[Snowden] has put military members like my husband, who is deployed overseas, in danger,” she said during the question-and-answer portion of the event. “If you ask people in the military intelligence community whether they consider him a whistleblower or a traitor, I can tell you overwhelmingly, they consider him a traitor.”

Fein was unapologetic.

“Your husband shouldn’t be there at all, he’s there because of a violation of the Constitution,” he said. “I think the greater crime was flouting the Constitution and sending people to send unconstitutional wars not for our liberty but for people who have no loyalty to the United States whatsoever and never will.”

Charles Hokanson, chairman of the Arlington County Republican Committee, took exception to Fein’s response, writing on Facebook at the time: “He just offended a military spouse so badly with his cavalier attitude to the safety of our soldiers abroad fighting in places he doesn’t think we belong that she just left the room.”

“I asked him to write her a letter of apology,” he continued. “I hope he does!”

A letter from Fein was later posted on the event’s Facebook page, sparking an intra-party debate over whether the letter was sufficiently apologetic or necessary in the first place. The discussion included more than 120 posts as of last night, but had been removed as of this morning.

TaftFan
08-21-2013, 03:06 PM
It's hard to hear your husband is putting his life in danger for no reason.

BenIsForRon
08-21-2013, 03:13 PM
Bruce Fein for president! That was an incredible answer!

Snew
08-21-2013, 03:45 PM
Fein is awesome.

Brian4Liberty
08-21-2013, 03:47 PM
"It's for the children!"
"You're a racist!"
"Support the military!"
"9/11!"


Things that people who have no argument say....

Athan
08-21-2013, 03:48 PM
We need to get information on who these people who love the state are. It will help us in the future.

nobody's_hero
08-21-2013, 04:04 PM
"It's for the children!"
"You're a racist!"
"Support the military!"
"9/11!"


Things that people who have no argument say....

Add "you just want poor people to die" when you bring up that the IRS should have nothing to do with healthcare.

torchbearer
08-21-2013, 04:05 PM
We need to get information on who these people who love the state are. It will help us in the future.

I had an epiphany today-
thinking about the divide in the country.
i'd see people as either individualist or collectivist. and that seems to work, but its over-simplified.
meaning, why do people end up one way or the other? most people don't even know the terms, or think about things to that degree... so how do they end up a statist dick sucker or a libertarian?

I think bastiat hit the nail on the head-
when the law becomes immoral. the citizen will be faced with two choices.
either they no longer respect the law, and maintain their morality.
or they respect the law, and lose their morality.

the divide happens over how people deal with the immorality of the law.
if your husband is a cop or military man, you are kinda force via avoidance of cognitive dissonance to go with the answer that leads to the least pain.
thus, you will respect the law, and lose your morality.

NIU Students for Liberty
08-21-2013, 04:07 PM
I hope Fein refuses to write the letter of apology.

LatinsforPaul
08-21-2013, 04:12 PM
It's hard to hear your husband is putting his life in danger for no reason.

Agree, but sometimes the truth hurts. Better to hear the truth, even when it hurts, than to be lied to continuously and feel good about it.

dannno
08-21-2013, 04:20 PM
That's what Republicans get for inviting a real Constitutional Scholar to their event.

No apology should be given.

Xenliad
08-21-2013, 04:25 PM
It's hard to hear your husband is putting his life in danger for no reason.

It's even harder to hear a loved one died for no good reason. It's tough to counter these appeals to emotion.

Seraphim
08-21-2013, 04:26 PM
I can nearly garuntee she left upset because she knew he was right.


It's hard to hear your husband is putting his life in danger for no reason.

AuH20
08-21-2013, 04:27 PM
What a crazy woman????? The NSA domestically spying has little to do with military operations. End of discussion. Christ almighty! Get a grip lady!

A Son of Liberty
08-21-2013, 04:29 PM
I was listening to Wilkow on SiriusXM today, and he had Dean Popp (?) some Army bureaucrat from the Bush administration as a guest. Wilkow was decently pro-Snowden when the topic came up, but Popp insisted that Snowden had "broke the law" and used the old, "well, lets see what comes out during his trial" dodge...

Don't these people get that Snowden revealed that the government was violating the 4th Amendment protected rights of probably every American in the country? With the constitution supposedly as the basis of law in this country, how could any "law" exist which prevents a person from revealing the government violating a fundamental tenet of the constitution? It's IDIOTIC. And these people who categorically and unequivocally defend the military-security state at all costs are deluded - GOOD on Fein for having the courage to stand up in the face of that droll appeal to emotion.

ETA: I'm faced with this very same thing in a very close family relation, and I'm at the point of taking the gloves off. It is well past time to be plainly clear - this military-security state is almost whole-cloth an immoral entity.

Lucille
08-21-2013, 04:35 PM
That's what Republicans get for inviting a real Constitutional Scholar to their event.

No apology should be given.

Someone posted it in the comments (http://www.arlnow.com/2013/08/21/young-republican-event-produces-spat-over-snowden/#comment-1010632056):


Below is Bruce Fein's letter referenced above, he wanted it shared with attendees, but since the event is now "news," here it is:

Mrs. ___
c/o Chairman Charles Hokanson
Arlington County Republican Committee
405 S. Glebe Road
Arlington, VA 22204

Dear Mrs. ___:

I salute your husband for risking that last full measure of devotion.

I decry the Government of the United States for sending your husband into
harm's way in an unconstitutional, objectless, perpetual, global war. The
situation is reminiscent of the pointless deaths suffered by British
soldiers memorialized in Tennyson's The Charge of the Light Brigade:

"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred."

Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black lectured in New York Times Co. v. United
States, 403 U.S. 713 (1971) in refusing to prevent publication of massive
classified documents exposing government deceit during the Vietnam War:
"[P]aramount among the responsibilities of a free press is the duty to
prevent any part of government from deceiving the people and sending them
off to distant lands to die of foreign fevers and foreign shot and
shell...The word 'security' is a broad, vague generality whose contours
should not be invoked to abrogate the fundamental law embodied in the First
Amendment. The guarding of military and diplomatic secrets at the expense
of informed representative government provides no real security for our
government."

The exposure of classified government lies and deceit by Daniel Ellsberg,
Senator Mike Gravel, and others saved an indeterminate number of military
lives that would otherwise have been squandered if the Vietnam War had
continued endlessly. As now Secretary of State John Kerry remarked in 1971
to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee: "How do you ask a man to be the
last men to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die
for a mistake."

George Washington was maligned as a traitor by the British. So were all of
his soldiers who dwelt at Valley Forge. You, your husband and all of us are
beneficiaries of their sacrifices and courage.

I sympathize with your anxieties over your husband's safety. I feel certain
your devotion, love, and affection are limitless. None of my remarks last
evening were intended to trivialize your plight and acute concerns. I
respect them, and wish you and your husband well.

For myself, I believe I am saddled with a duty to avoid the reproach of
idleness or indifference in the face of injustice. Edmund Burke sermonized,
all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Bruce Fein

torchbearer
08-21-2013, 04:58 PM
great letter.

dannno
08-21-2013, 05:07 PM
Someone posted it in the comments (http://www.arlnow.com/2013/08/21/young-republican-event-produces-spat-over-snowden/#comment-1010632056):

Woman's response:


All I see is a bunch of 'blah blah blah' and no "I'm sorry! I will support the troops without exception in the future, ma'am!"

Christian Liberty
08-21-2013, 05:07 PM
ETA: I'm faced with this very same thing in a very close family relation, and I'm at the point of taking the gloves off. It is well past time to be plainly clear - this military-security state is almost whole-cloth an immoral entity.





Oh, I have plenty of neocons in my family... what do you suggest?

Seraphim
08-21-2013, 05:11 PM
She's a deluded moron. No sense giving her further attention.

Ze Fuhrer would be proud.


Woman's response:

messana
08-21-2013, 05:15 PM
How would Snowden put some guy overseas in danger?

Bastiat's The Law
08-21-2013, 05:18 PM
"Time makes more converts than reason.”
― Thomas Paine

pcosmar
08-21-2013, 05:24 PM
It's hard to hear your husband is putting his life in danger for no reason.

Reality sucks,, and facing it is hard.

Perhaps that is why so many attempt to escape reality.

donnay
08-21-2013, 05:39 PM
It's hard to hear your husband is putting his life in danger for no reason.


She should take her anger out on the hijacked government who allows her husband to fight wars for profit--that they NEVER see.

AuH20
08-21-2013, 05:40 PM
How would Snowden put some guy overseas in danger?

I think she's just not well-informed.

A Son of Liberty
08-21-2013, 05:41 PM
Oh, I have plenty of neocons in my family... what do you suggest?

Depends on your situation, lad. A very close family relation is in the military, and considered by my family to be a "hero". He is a good and decent person, but he is utterly deluded by the propaganda about the military-security state, and the entire family around him is 100% vested. I happen to be quite the black sheep with this side of my family, so speaking my mind comes with little consequences, as far as I'm concerned. But one should always seek to speak the truth... but how you speak that truth depends upon your situation.

Mentally focus on the fact that the "US government" is a vicious, murdering enterprise, and that *by and large* those in its military service are *generally speaking* victims of a vast all-encompassing propaganda effort, as are those who support them... we all are, really.

You know your family. It's up to you to decide how to deal with them. With my family, my loved one is committed to another 4 years. They know well enough to not ask me what I think when it comes to foreign policy. God-forbid something ever happen to this loved one, in the commission of his "duties", to use the sanitized phraseology. I won't be expressing my pain in the same way my family will, and I'm certain it will create an unbridgeable rift. But you will have these things when you see things as they actually are, while others refuse to see things as such.

AuH20
08-21-2013, 05:43 PM
Oh, I have plenty of neocons in my family... what do you suggest?

They're probably not neocons. They have conflated their interests with the military's.

pcosmar
08-21-2013, 05:46 PM
I think she's just not well-informed.

I think she is deliberately misinformed.. and willfully ignorant.

I also thing he wasted a lot of good words on someone without the capacity to understand them.

AuH20
08-21-2013, 05:47 PM
Depends on your situation, lad. A very close family relation is in the military, and considered by my family to be a "hero". He is a good and decent person, but he is utterly deluded by the propaganda about the military-security state, and the entire family around him is 100% vested. I happen to be quite the black sheep with this side of my family, so speaking my mind comes with little consequences, as far as I'm concerned. But one should always seek to speak the truth... but how you speak that truth depends upon your situation.

Mentally focus on the fact that the "US government" is a vicious, murdering enterprise, and that *by and large* those in its military service are *generally speaking* victims of a vast all-encompassing propaganda effort, as are those who support them... we all are, really.

You know your family. It's up to you to decide how to deal with them. With my family, my loved one is committed to another 4 years. They know well enough to not ask me what I think when it comes to foreign policy. God-forbid something ever happen to this loved one, in the commission of his "duties", to use the sanitized phraseology. I won't be expressing my pain in the same way my family will, and I'm certain it will create an unbridgeable rift. But you will have these things when you see things as they actually are, while others refuse to see things as such.

I wouldn't go that far. There is good and bad. There are factions within the military sphere who aren't morally corrupt. But the real problem is the entrenched leadership from the JCS to the many Senators who are appendages of military lobbyists. Until the hierarchy is rearranged, the same problems will reoccur.

Neil Desmond
08-21-2013, 05:48 PM
Apologize for what, exactly?

A Son of Liberty
08-21-2013, 05:59 PM
I wouldn't go that far. There is good and bad. There are factions within the military sphere who aren't morally corrupt. But the real problem is the entrenched leadership from the JCS to the many Senators who are appendages of military lobbyists. Until the hierarchy is rearranged, the same problems will reoccur.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. I stated that many in the military are the victims of the vast social-media propaganda effort, as we all are... some of us have sniffed out the bullshit, and some haven't. We were all there, once, to some degree or another.

Yet that doesn't change the overall immorality of the US government and what it is that they set as policy, and effectively those who carry out that policy.

Lucille
08-21-2013, 06:00 PM
If she got upset over that, imagine what her reaction to Laurence Vance (http://archive.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance250.html) would be!


It is without question that Americans are in love with the military. Even worse, though, is that their love is unqualified, unconditional, unrelenting, and unending.
[...]
I’m afraid I must also say: Sorry, soldiers, I don’t thank you for your service.

I don’t thank you for your service in fighting foreign wars.
I don’t thank you for your service in fighting without a congressional declaration of war.
I don’t thank you for your service in bombing and destroying Iraq and Afghanistan.
I don’t thank you for your service in killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans.
I don’t thank you for your service in expanding the war on terror to Pakistan and Yemen.
I don’t thank you for your service in occupying over 150 countries around the world.
I don’t thank you for your service in garrisoning the planet with over 1,000 military bases.
I don’t thank you for your service in defending our freedoms when you do nothing of the kind.
I don’t thank you for your service as part of the president’s personal attack force to bomb, invade, occupy, and otherwise bring death and destruction to any country he deems necessary.

Thank you for your service? I don’t think so.

BlackTerrel
08-21-2013, 06:16 PM
“[Snowden] has put military members like my husband, who is deployed overseas, in danger,” she said during the question-and-answer portion of the event. “If you ask people in the military intelligence community whether they consider him a whistleblower or a traitor, I can tell you overwhelmingly, they consider him a traitor.”

Fein was unapologetic.

“Your husband shouldn’t be there at all, he’s there because of a violation of the Constitution,” he said. “I think the greater crime was flouting the Constitution and sending people to send unconstitutional wars not for our liberty but for people who have no loyalty to the United States whatsoever and never will.”

I can't watch the video so am going only off the written portion. Please tell me there was more to his answer than this.

If there isn't I have to strongly disagree with the majority here and think this is a very poor answer.

If this woman is concerned that Snowden put her husbands life (and those of other American military) at risk with his options than the correct answer is not to say "well he shouldn't be there anyway".

Fact is he is there. If Fein is calling Snowden a hero I hope that he believes that Snowden DID NOT put the lives of American military at risk. And if he believes that then it should be in his answer.

AuH20
08-21-2013, 06:19 PM
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. I stated that many in the military are the victims of the vast social-media propaganda effort, as we all are... some of us have sniffed out the bullshit, and some haven't. We were all there, once, to some degree or another.

Yet that doesn't change the overall immorality of the US government and what it is that they set as policy, and effectively those who carry out that policy.

The U.S. government doesn't revel in killing, but rather thrives on enforcing coercion and submission via sheer intimidation. The military could be far more bloodthirsty if that was the desired goal.

mad cow
08-21-2013, 06:20 PM
Dear Mrs. ___:

I salute your husband for risking that last full measure of devotion.

I decry the Government of the United States for sending your husband into
harm's way in an unconstitutional, objectless, perpetual, global war. The
situation is reminiscent of the pointless deaths suffered by British
soldiers memorialized in Tennyson's The Charge of the Light Brigade:

"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred."

Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black lectured in New York Times Co. v. United
States, 403 U.S. 713 (1971) in refusing to prevent publication of massive
classified documents exposing government deceit during the Vietnam War:
"[P]aramount among the responsibilities of a free press is the duty to
prevent any part of government from deceiving the people and sending them
off to distant lands to die of foreign fevers and foreign shot and
shell...The word 'security' is a broad, vague generality whose contours
should not be invoked to abrogate the fundamental law embodied in the First
Amendment. The guarding of military and diplomatic secrets at the expense
of informed representative government provides no real security for our
government."

The exposure of classified government lies and deceit by Daniel Ellsberg,
Senator Mike Gravel, and others saved an indeterminate number of military
lives that would otherwise have been squandered if the Vietnam War had
continued endlessly. As now Secretary of State John Kerry remarked in 1971
to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee: "How do you ask a man to be the
last men to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die
for a mistake."

George Washington was maligned as a traitor by the British. So were all of
his soldiers who dwelt at Valley Forge. You, your husband and all of us are
beneficiaries of their sacrifices and courage.

I sympathize with your anxieties over your husband's safety. I feel certain
your devotion, love, and affection are limitless. None of my remarks last
evening were intended to trivialize your plight and acute concerns. I
respect them, and wish you and your husband well.

For myself, I believe I am saddled with a duty to avoid the reproach of
idleness or indifference in the face of injustice. Edmund Burke sermonized,
all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Bruce Fein

Perfect reply.What an excellent letter.

kcchiefs6465
08-21-2013, 06:23 PM
If Fein is calling Snowden a hero I hope that he believes that Snowden DID NOT put the lives of American military at risk. And if he believes that then it should be in his answer.
It is.

BlackTerrel
08-21-2013, 06:35 PM
It is.

Clarifying here: His answer in the video makes clear that Snowden did not put the lives of American military at risk?

A Son of Liberty
08-21-2013, 06:41 PM
The U.S. government doesn't revel in killing, but rather thrives on enforcing coercion and submission via sheer intimidation. The military could be far more bloodthirsty if that was the desired goal.

Individuals within the US government may or may not "revel" in the killings they perform. I think it is safe to assume that disgusting pigs like Lindsey Graham jerk theselves off at night to the images of maimed and murdered innocent men, women and children, all victims of their barely contained orgiastic fervor.

But regardless of whether any of them do or not, they're awfully damned good at it. Good enough, in fact, to be accused of revelling in it. Indeed, little more than that is required to find us mere mundanes guilty of one of their many and numerous rules, regulations and laws.

So, in short, fuck them. You may give them such a benefit of the doubt. I do not. I say they REVEL in it. And they send our brothers and sisters off to do their evil bidding.

AuH20
08-21-2013, 06:45 PM
Individuals within the US government may or may not "revel" in the killings they perform. I think it is safe to assume that disgusting pigs like Lindsey Graham jerk theselves off at night to the images of maimed and murdered innocent men, women and children, all victims of their barely contained orgiastic fervor.

But regardless of whether any of them do or not, they're awfully damned good at it. Good enough, in fact, to be accused of revelling in it. Indeed, little more than that is required to find us mere mundanes guilty of one of their many and numerous rules, regulations and laws.

So, in short, fuck them. You may give them such a benefit of the doubt. I do not. I say they REVEL in it. And they send our brothers and sisters off to do their evil bidding.

What I'm saying is that they don't need to arbitrarily kill to achieve their desired goals. Much of their domination is psychological, which doesn't make it any less immoral.

Christian Liberty
08-21-2013, 06:54 PM
If she got upset over that, imagine what her reaction to Laurence Vance (http://archive.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance250.html) would be!

Laurence Vance is an actual hero.


Individuals within the US government may or may not "revel" in the killings they perform. I think it is safe to assume that disgusting pigs like Lindsey Graham jerk theselves off at night to the images of maimed and murdered innocent men, women and children, all victims of their barely contained orgiastic fervor.

But regardless of whether any of them do or not, they're awfully damned good at it. Good enough, in fact, to be accused of revelling in it. Indeed, little more than that is required to find us mere mundanes guilty of one of their many and numerous rules, regulations and laws.

So, in short, fuck them. You may give them such a benefit of the doubt. I do not. I say they REVEL in it. And they send our brothers and sisters off to do their evil bidding.

Yep.


Depends on your situation, lad. A very close family relation is in the military, and considered by my family to be a "hero". He is a good and decent person, but he is utterly deluded by the propaganda about the military-security state, and the entire family around him is 100% vested. I happen to be quite the black sheep with this side of my family, so speaking my mind comes with little consequences, as far as I'm concerned. But one should always seek to speak the truth... but how you speak that truth depends upon your situation.

Mentally focus on the fact that the "US government" is a vicious, murdering enterprise, and that *by and large* those in its military service are *generally speaking* victims of a vast all-encompassing propaganda effort, as are those who support them... we all are, really.

You know your family. It's up to you to decide how to deal with them. With my family, my loved one is committed to another 4 years. They know well enough to not ask me what I think when it comes to foreign policy. God-forbid something ever happen to this loved one, in the commission of his "duties", to use the sanitized phraseology. I won't be expressing my pain in the same way my family will, and I'm certain it will create an unbridgeable rift. But you will have these things when you see things as they actually are, while others refuse to see things as such.

I don't celebrate when US soldiers are killed, and I completely condemn "churches" like the WBC celebrating at their funerals. That said, ultimately, and fundamentally, I do feel like they deserve it. Particularly those who end up killing civilians, but even if they don't, they're invading a country and those who fight to defend their national soveregnty from the invaders, they certainly have a right to do that.

If it were my own family member, I have no doubt I'd feel different, but in the generic, it just doesn't move me. I get moved when people get murdered by drone strikes. When an Afghan kills an American soldier, I view such killings as defensive.

That said, I almost always water down my positions in this regard, except online. Here I actually share how I feel about all this crap. In real life I'll usually water down a little bit, or a lot, depending on who I'm talking to. I usually pretend that I respect the troops, at least when talking to hardcore neocons, and I focus solely on the foreign policy issues, but sometimes that still leads to getting attacked as being "unamerican."

Which, doesn't bother me as such, but the ignorance annoys me.

They're probably not neocons. They have conflated their interests with the military's.

"Fight them over there so they won't come over here" is the neocon mantra, and I have a few people in my family who think that. Not all of them, but certainly a few. Thank goodness my parents are better than that. I've actually pretty much talked my mother into agreeing with me on foreign policy, although she will never be politically motivated and is not willing to outright condemn those who do not agree. My dad is pretty close to where Rand Paul is at, which all things considered, is a lot better than he used to be.

Certain elements of my extended family, on the other hand...

kcchiefs6465
08-21-2013, 07:15 PM
Clarifying here: His answer in the video makes clear that Snowden did not put the lives of American military at risk?
Yup.

As well as Manning. He said there was no evidence to support the claim that their leaks endangered or harmed any Americans and that if the government had the evidence it would well have been plastered on every newspaper front page by now.

MRK
08-21-2013, 07:24 PM
'MERICA

James Madison
08-21-2013, 07:27 PM
I can't watch the video so am going only off the written portion. Please tell me there was more to his answer than this.

If there isn't I have to strongly disagree with the majority here and think this is a very poor answer.

If this woman is concerned that Snowden put her husbands life (and those of other American military) at risk with his options than the correct answer is not to say "well he shouldn't be there anyway".

Fact is he is there. If Fein is calling Snowden a hero I hope that he believes that Snowden DID NOT put the lives of American military at risk. And if he believes that then it should be in his answer.

If he was drafted maybe, maybe I'm sympathetic. But he wasn't; he's a volunteer. He signed up with the knowledge he may have to go overseas and now he is.

Might I remind everyone that his oath is to the Constitution not his superiors and certainly not his government.

69360
08-21-2013, 07:59 PM
I think Fein was way out of line both in his initial comments and the letter. There are times in life where you just be a decent person and hold your tongue despite your personal beliefs. This was one of them, the correct response would have been "I understand some feel that way" nothing more needed to be said to this woman.

Czolgosz
08-21-2013, 08:01 PM
Most Humans are higher-order chimps, they simply won't ever see the forest.

Bastiat's The Law
08-21-2013, 08:01 PM
I couldn't even hear what she said.

liberty2897
08-21-2013, 08:13 PM
I had an epiphany today-
thinking about the divide in the country.
i'd see people as either individualist or collectivist. and that seems to work, but its over-simplified.
meaning, why do people end up one way or the other? most people don't even know the terms, or think about things to that degree... so how do they end up a statist dick sucker or a libertarian?
.

Before I found out about Ron Paul / Liberty Movement, I guess I you might have considered me a collectivist. I was of the opinion that the very least a government should do for people was provide health care. I mean, if I'm going to be forced to pay taxes for the benefit of others, I would at least like them to be healthy. At that point in time, I didn't necessarily see government and freedom as diametrically opposing ideas. I didn't see myself as a democrat or a republican... ever in my life. I think the reason I wasn't all that upset about taxes is because 1) I never thought about it much.. just something that is required.. taught from birth. 2) I don't really have an overwhelming desire for wealth. I'm okay if I have enough to be comfortable and maybe a little extra for projects that interest me. I still feel guilt when I consider how I'm doing well and others are not.

Once I understood that government is the very thing that is sucking the life out the vast majority of the population, my thoughts changed. Once I understood that those stolen tax dollars are the source of building weapons of mass destruction to be unleashed on countless innocents, my thoughts changed. Once I realized that those stolen tax dollars are the source of countless lives being destroyed over silly things like the "drug war", my thoughts changed. Once I realized that those tax dollars were being used to completely destroy the 4th amendment, my thoughts changed. I've always respected the "founding fathers", but unfortunately, I didn't research their views much until recently. I still have a lot of researching to do. Discovering the community of people here who have been so dedicated, active, intelligent, and held so many of the views I more or less kept to myself, has been a transforming experience. I will never look at things the same. To those here that say you should be breaking at least 3 laws a day, I salute you. I will do my best. To those who say you shouldn't pay federal income tax, and actually walk the walk, I salute you. I'm not there yet (guilty). To those willing to give up everything for their fellow human beings, be forced into other countries for fear of their lives, be incarcerated for half their life for the crime of exposing the system for what it is, I don't even have the right words...

Maybe someday the population will wake up and realize that we have become slaves to a system that can never work.

jmdrake
08-21-2013, 08:29 PM
I hope Fein refuses to write the letter of apology.

Agreed. And this lady's argument is stupid anyway. How can a release about information about domestic surveillance put the life of a soldier serving overseas in danger? Goodness we have some stupid people in our country.

Czolgosz
08-21-2013, 08:30 PM
Agreed. And this lady's argument is stupid anyway. How can a release about information about domestic surveillance put the life of a soldier serving overseas in danger? Goodness we have some stupid people in our country.

She listens to tv/radio/political talk and parrots that shit.

NIU Students for Liberty
08-21-2013, 08:50 PM
There are times in life where you just be a decent person and hold your tongue despite your personal beliefs. This was one of them, the correct response would have been "I understand some feel that way" nothing more needed to be said to this woman.

Decent people tell the truth. Don't worry, he's not Rand (Fein doesn't have to worry about alienating a political party and its ignorant voting base).

twomp
08-21-2013, 09:29 PM
It's always the same with these people. As in the Bradley Manning case, disregard the immoral despicable acts of the government and shoot the messenger. Snowden and Manning wouldn't have to do what they did if the government was following the law now would they.

VoluntaryAmerican
08-21-2013, 09:29 PM
It's hard to hear your husband is putting his life in danger for no reason.

especially if you believe in God.

A Son of Liberty
08-22-2013, 03:22 AM
Agreed. And this lady's argument is stupid anyway. How can a release about information about domestic surveillance put the life of a soldier serving overseas in danger? Goodness we have some stupid people in our country.

Because they hate us for our freedoms, and if you are not with us you are against us, and if we don't fight them there we will be fighting them here, and if loving you is wrong I don't want to be right.

Oh, and also freedom fries.

Feeding the Abscess
08-22-2013, 03:36 AM
Woman's response:

I think I just lost brain capacity from reading that.

susano
08-22-2013, 04:00 AM
Oh, I have plenty of neocons in my family... what do you suggest?

Have them read where their political philosophy comes from.

http://blacksuninvictus.org/neocon.html
http://www.academia.edu/2049233/Neoconservatives_and_Trotskyism_
http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Kristol_Irving

(the second one I haven't read. just found it while looking for the Max Shpak piece)


Hopefully they'll be mortified to find out they're neocommunists.

susano
08-22-2013, 04:19 AM
What I'm saying is that they don't need to arbitrarily kill to achieve their desired goals. Much of their domination is psychological, which doesn't make it any less immoral.

That reminds me...

Do you know who Michael Aquino is? If not, look him up. Anyway, he showed up and posted at a forum I hang at. I was really stunned. You may find the thread of interest. He is the OP:

http://lunaticoutpost.com/Topic-MindWar--312905

noneedtoaggress
08-22-2013, 02:05 PM
Woman's response:

Source? Is that for real?

belian78
08-22-2013, 04:24 PM
I think Fein was way out of line both in his initial comments and the letter. There are times in life where you just be a decent person and hold your tongue despite your personal beliefs. This was one of them, the correct response would have been "I understand some feel that way" nothing more needed to be said to this woman.

Is there a time that you ever see the side of Liberty in anything? Everytime I read a response of yours, especially on a subject that is pretty damn black and white like this one, and you put yourself at odds with what is right.

Theocrat
08-22-2013, 04:51 PM
Agreed. And this lady's argument is stupid anyway. How can a release about information about domestic surveillance put the life of a soldier serving overseas in danger? Goodness we have some stupid people in our country.

Me, too. I simply can't understand the logic of how someone providing evidence to Americans (not terrorists) that the U.S. government is spying on them will endanger soldiers who are fighting in foreign lands that belong to those foreigners. Those are two separate issues altogether.

Christian Liberty
08-22-2013, 07:33 PM
Me, too. I simply can't understand the logic of how someone providing evidence to Americans (not terrorists) that the U.S. government is spying on them will endanger soldiers who are fighting in foreign lands that belong to those foreigners. Those are two separate issues altogether.

Isn't fighting in foreign lands a murderous enterprise anyway?

So what if it did endanger US soldiers who were invading countries that never attacked us? Would that make it wrong?

Bastiat's The Law
08-22-2013, 07:41 PM
Did she say her husband died in the wars or was serving in the military?

BlackTerrel
08-22-2013, 09:12 PM
Yup.

As well as Manning. He said there was no evidence to support the claim that their leaks endangered or harmed any Americans and that if the government had the evidence it would well have been plastered on every newspaper front page by now.

OK. Thanks.

XTreat
08-22-2013, 10:00 PM
I am in the military work and in the intelligence community. I disagree.

Christian Liberty
08-22-2013, 10:45 PM
I am in the military work in the intelligence community. I disagree.

Which warrants an IP ban, IMO. Don't make it easier for the NSA to watch us.

XTreat
08-24-2013, 11:38 PM
Which warrants an IP ban, IMO. Don't make it easier for the NSA to watch us.

Don't worry yourself too much, RPF is blocked by military computers.

Also, you're a douche. Pretty sure that's my first neg rep.