Child Protection Services nab the children of an online friend of mine

[Original_Intent]

This was posted on the LDS Freedom Forum this morning.


My friends, this forum is dedicated to freedom, as the title suggests. There is only one way to obtain freedom and that is by learning to trust the Lord. That is why our coins are stamped with the words, In God We Trust. The founding fathers understood that they would not have succeeded if they did not rely on God. Many of them made incredible sacrifices, often allowing their loved ones to suffer and die in addition to pledging their entire lives to the cause of freedom. They were only able to make these sacrifices because they trusted that God would make all things right in the end.

The more that I learn about the founding fathers, their beliefs, and their actions, the more I have come to understand this principle. But it is not enough to understand. I also have to live this principle. And the Lord has called upon me to do so.

The other day I allowed my children to go on "an adventure." The oldest one wanted to go out exploring the world on her own. Her younger siblings decided they wanted to go with her. I allowed her to take them all except the infant, assuming that because they took the toddler, they wouldn't be gone long or go very far. I was wrong.

They made it quite far. They called me to come pick them up. However, before I was able to get to the place where they were at, a "concerned citizen" had called the police. I got there shortly after the police did.

The police expressed concern over my children. I was polite but frank. I did not want to live in a state of fear and didn't appreciate them trying to make me feel afraid. I told them I trusted God. They didn't understand that that did not mean I never expected anything bad to happen to my children, only that I knew that everything would be all right in the end. They reported me to DFCS, the Division of Family and Child Services.

This morning a social worker showed up from DFCS. She wanted me to sign a "safety plan." After talking with my husband, who foolishly divulged all my shortcomings to her, she left. She came back later with another woman and together they tried to pressure me into signing a "safety plan." I refused, sharing with them also my trust in God and decrying their rehearsed phrases about how concerned they were over the welfare of my children. If one of my kids died, they might feel a pang of sympathy for them. I would be the one sobbing in sorrow.

Just to be completely honest, I'll let you know that there are other issues, emotional difficulties, marital problems, and a messy house that I'm certain have come into play here as well. I still maintain that I ought to have the right to raise my children as I see fit. I am the one who loves them most. The Lord trusted me enough to give me these little ones and leave them in my care. If the Lord trusts me, then no one on earth ought to feel they know any better.

I knew that by not cooperating I would very likely have my children taken away from me. I didn't expect it to happen so quickly. This evening, as I was returning from an outing with a friend, I was confronted by two officers and a social worker who took my baby from me and informed me that the other children had already been removed.

I am not afraid. I know my children are likely going to suffer. I know them and know that the people caring for them right now probably not only don't understand the nuances of their personalities, but have also likely been trained in acceptable government child care practices that will likely leave them emotionally distraught. Make no mistake that I am naively thinking that my children will not suffer because of this thing. I believe they will.

But more importantly, I believe in the Lord God, Jesus Christ. I believe in His mercy and love. I believe He will be there with them personally watching over them. I believe that all things that are allowed to happen to my family will ultimately work together for our good.

The important thing to me is that I am not afraid. I was not afraid to stand up to the government with all its supposed power. I believe my children will be returned to me through the power of God. But if not, come what may. I know that though I am one person and am small and insignificant, my courage will rock the foundation of darkness because the Lord is with me. He is over all.

I ask you all to pray for my family. We are weak. By ourselves the government will eat us alive. However, through the power of prayer and faith, I believe we can conquer all. My children's names are Eliora (9), Ammon(8), Sariah(6), Esther(4), Mary(1), and Sarah(5 months). Mary will be turning 2 on Friday.

Thank you.

I can't believe the world we live in. If you are demanded to sign on to a safety plan for your kids, and you refuse, your kids are simply gone.

[jbauer]

There's got to be more to this story. She even mentioned that there are emotional, marital and house concerns. We have no idea what those concerns are.

I'm not in favor of government force but there is to little information included to discern if there was "real" danger to these kids or not. I can tell you one thing, I'm a Christian and God is all good and fine but PEOPLE aka Government took these kids away. Its all good and fine to ask God for some help, but God helps those who help themselves. Tell her to get busy getting her kids back because God isn't going to drop them off at her house this afternoon.

[tod evans]

Automatically my "assumption" is that government agents have overstepped their bounds.......Again!

Of course I wasn't there, I haven't spoke to this woman, her husband or the kids but she's fairly articulate and has provided absolutely no reason for me to believe my assumption is wrong.

Government agents get NO QUARTER!

[Kotin]

sorry but she could have avoided that so easily.. when it comes to kids and you know the government will take them, you do NOT risk the kid's wellbeing over making a point.. this is fucking bullshit. I am all for standing up to the state but she knew what she was doing and still did it?? still allowed the fucking psychopaths from CPS to take her children?!?! those kids could be raped and killed and she wants to make a point??????!!!!

YOU DO NOT DO THAT TO KIDS!!!!! she knew they would suffer??? this is fucking being a terrible parent and nothing more.



sorry but this one I will not agree with.. I wont defend the state either but holy shit..



you protect kids by ALL MEANS. dying for your child should not even be a thought so lettting this happen does not make one bit of sense to me.. when I think about just what I would do for my own children this story leaves me confused and sick for what that mother did..

[Schifference]

Religious Fanatic.

[amy31416]

I gotta agree with Kotin on this. The husband also sounds like a dipshit.

[angelatc]

No excuse for the state ever taking kids. You give them an inch, and they take a mile. People who say she just sould have signed it apparently act differently under pressure than I do, which is to say that I was brought up never to sign or do anything under duress.

We have no idea what the "Safety Plan" included, and none of us would be entirely surprised to find out it included an outlandish clause that terminated parental rights if CPS were ever called again, for any reason. Blaming her for not bending over immediately is not the liberty position.

I hope God sends her some answers that will get her kids home where they belong.

[Schifference]

In No Way Do I Condone the Govt Taking kids but in regards to god sending answers, I have seen some dipshit parents/families, (not implying this family is), and if god intends kids to be brought up in said conditions then god is not at all loving or merciful.

[Original_Intent]

No excuse for the state ever taking kids. You give them an inch, and they take a mile. People who say she just sould have signed it apparently act differently under pressure than I do, which is to say that I was brought up never to sign or do anything under duress.

We have no idea what the "Safety Plan" included, and none of us would be entirely surprised to find out it included an outlandish clause that terminated parental rights if CPS were ever called again, for any reason. Blaming her for not bending over immediately is not the liberty position.

I hope God sends her some answers that will get her kids home where they belong.

Pretty much how I feel. In my opinion, the primary failure was with the husband who should have left feet first before allowing this to happen. I know the pragmatists will say great, now he is dead or in jail, how does that help the kids? I guess they also would have told the guy in Tiananment square not to stand down that tank, go home and take care of the wife and kids.

Sometimes tyranny needs to be stood against, even if the price of making an "ideological point" is almost unthinkable.

The ideological point is will you leave peacefully as a slave or will you be free at any price.

[better-dead-than-fed]

Your tax dollars at work, and the choice whether to pay taxes was yours.

[The Free Hornet]

YOU DO NOT DO THAT TO KIDS!!!!! she knew they would suffer??? this is fucking being a terrible parent and nothing more.

"Safety plan" is the start, not the end. Good for her! What is easily avoided

- lock the kids inside?
- sign onto some illegal "safety plan"

[Kotin]

"Safety plan" is the start, not the end. Good for her! What is easily avoided

- lock the kids inside?
- sign onto some illegal "safety plan"

you dont let the state kidnap your kids to make a point.

[jkob]

So she let her 9, 8, 6, 4, and 1 year old go on an 'adventure' thinking that god would guide them and keep them safe and then didn't cooperate with CPS to make a point.

[presence]

Saint Anthony, great wonder-worker, intercede for us that God may grant us our request if it be for the good of our soul.
Saint Anthony, be our patron, our protector, and our advocate in life and in death.
Saint Anthony, attentive to those who invoke thee, grant us the aid of thy powerful intercession for the grace of holy purity, meekness, humility, obedience, the spirit of poverty, and perfect abandonment to the will of God.
Saint Anthony, perfect imitator of Jesus, who received from God the special power of restoring lost things, grant that she may find her children which have been lost.

[Pericles]

Casus belli

[The Bavarian]

So she let her 9, 8, 6, 4, and 1 year old go on an 'adventure' thinking that god would guide them and keep them safe and then didn't cooperate with CPS to make a point.


Sums it up pretty well.

[Antischism]

Sounds like terrible parenting. Listen woman, you're not special nor are your kids. If there is a God, I don't think he picks and chooses who he wants to protect. If that were the case, we would never see the numerous tragic cases that happen worldwide on a daily basis. There would be far less suffering in the world if there was divine intervention for all those who think they can will it by praying and wishing real hard. The only thing a child can truly count on is YOUR protection. You're their guardian—you have to make decisions based on their best interests. Furthermore, if you're endangering the lives of your children in any way, you may not be fit to be a parent.

I don't know the full details of the story but generally speaking, children are not your property. You don't get to put them in harm's way or do as you please with them simply because they popped out of your vagina and you believe in God. Obviously there are cases where boundaries are overstepped and children are taken away when they shouldn't be, but from what's written, it sounds like she made some bad decisions.

[Pericles]

So she let her 9, 8, 6, 4, and 1 year old go on an 'adventure' thinking that god would guide them and keep them safe and then didn't cooperate with CPS to make a point.

Be that as it may, I'll offer a few additional comments. We can only make assumptions about the parents and the children involved. We know not other circumstances that should matter - type of neighborhood in which the family live (rural vs. urban), how often the children have previously gone on "adventures", and the capability of the oldest child. As a frame of reference, as a 6 year old, I was expected to find my way home from school every school day - and i managed to do so every time. I even found my way to certain retail establishments, where unassisted, I was able to purchase and consume chocolate covered sugar bombs.

Points being (A) children are capable of learning responsibility at the ages mentioned (B) society may be crap and child molesters are out there, but possibly not on every street corner (C) a concerned citizen could have stayed with the kids, called mom on the cell phone, but having been inculcated with the abdication of any personal responsibility or sense of personal obligation to one's fellow man, went for the 911 call instead.

[RockEnds]

I'm sorry for your friend. It hasn't been so many years ago that children regularly went on "adventures". But that was then, this is now, and nostalgia is impractical in this situation.

While I absolutely disagree that refusing to kiss a social worker's backside is the mark of a bad parent, it must be understood that once children are removed from the home, unless there has been gross mishandling of the situation on the part of the state, and I mean really, really treacherous mishandling, the only way to get the kids home again is total compliance with the state.

Sticking to one's political and religious principles is admirable, but it won't get the kids back. Straight up. That's reality. I hope this individual weighs her options very carefully because those babies can be permanently TPR'd very, very quickly in most states. It is possible to permanently lose infants to adoption in as little as six months. I hope she chooses her battles wisely.

[presence]

Sounds like terrible parenting.
Listen woman, you're not special nor are your kids.
[]
The only thing a child can truly count on is YOUR protection.
You're their guardian—you have to make decisions based on their best interests.

Lions tigers and bears oh my!



I allowed her to take them all except the infant,
assuming that because they took the toddler,
they wouldn't be gone long or go very far. I was wrong.

Seems she let her 8&9 year old go for a walk with the little ones tagging behind; she was probably expecting an "around the block" and the kids pushed their limits.



You don't get to put them in harm's way.

When did letting your kids go for a walk in your neighborhood become "harms way?"
Glad I don't live in a place like that. Is this story from Syria or something?








Personally, I grew up in a suburban NJ neighborhood 10 miles from the George Washington Bridge into NYC.
I walked 0.9 miles (kids over a mile got a bus) to school, starting in kindergarten (age 5).
Umbrellas, snow boots, and often absent crossing guards.


Happy, healthy; just fine.






inculcated with the abdication
indeed

[moostraks]

Ka-ching. Six children, somebody smelled payday. Large religious families are an easy target because they are different than the societal norm and so they will shred them over their differences and exploit the paranoia of the judge. This family has a long road ahead of them. Sounds like CPS played them against each other since it sounds like the dad was pointing out what he took issue with the mom as she admitted to having marital problems. They would be lucky to get them back if they both stand together, but divided they won't get more than visitation and a bill from the state. Sounds like she is rolling over and seeing what will be. To admit that she knows they will suffer and being so cavalier about it is frustrating.

Signing a safety plan should not be done without an attorney, fwiw. First thing to do when CPS contacts you is to lawyer up with someone the locals know has a fierce reputation. It won't end it but it will limit the pain. Yes it is expensive and no most people they target cannot afford to do this and that is why they are harassed. Stealing children makes the state big money.

[moostraks]

I'm sorry for your friend. It hasn't been so many years ago that children regularly went on "adventures". But that was then, this is now, and nostalgia is impractical in this situation.

While I absolutely disagree that refusing to kiss a social worker's backside is the mark of a bad parent, it must be understood that once children are removed from the home, unless there has been gross mishandling of the situation on the part of the state, and I mean really, really treacherous mishandling, the only way to get the kids home again is total compliance with the state.

Sticking to one's political and religious principles is admirable, but it won't get the kids back. Straight up. That's reality. I hope this individual weighs her options very carefully because those babies can be permanently TPR'd very, very quickly in most states. It is possible to permanently lose infants to adoption in as little as six months. I hope she chooses her battles wisely.

Wise words and once taken any future children will be taken away as well since an unfit parent is an unfit parent according to most states. There is a very fine line to be walked when dealing with CPS.

[69360]

Eh mother does't seem all there. She needs to get her house and self together for her kids. But even more importantly she learned never to let the cops and state get your kids. Play their little games if necessary, tell them what they want to hear. I'm sure those kids are better off in a messy house with a mom with some minor issues than in the system.

[fr33]

So she let her 9, 8, 6, 4, and 1 year old go on an 'adventure' thinking that god would guide them and keep them safe and then didn't cooperate with CPS to make a point.

WTF? Have all of you lived such sheltered lives?

I guess growing up on a farm gives me a different perspective. Every day was an adventure.

[dannno]

So she let her 9, 8, 6, 4, and 1 year old go on an 'adventure' thinking that god would guide them and keep them safe and then didn't cooperate with CPS to make a point.

They live in Utah, not Los Angeles..

What's wrong with letting your kids go play outside?

[RockEnds]

Wise words and once taken any future children will be taken away as well since an unfit parent is an unfit parent according to most states. There is a very fine line to be walked when dealing with CPS.

Your advice to seek a lawyer is also indispensable. If possible, request a CASA. There is a little thing called "concurrent planning". Make sure the lawyer explains the meaning of this term.

[69360]

WTF? Have all of you lived such sheltered lives?

I guess growing up on a farm gives me a different perspective. Every day was an adventure.

I grew up in the suburbs and now live in a fairly rural location.

It wasn't clearly defined where the kids went. I think a 9 and 8 year old are fine to keep an eye on younger sibling for a walk around the suburbs or the country.

[Kotin]

WTF? Have all of you lived such sheltered lives?

I guess growing up on a farm gives me a different perspective. Every day was an adventure.

Is not about that part.

Its about what she did after and her attitude of utter indifference at the state taking her children to make some bullshit point?

We have all seen kids raped and murdered after even one day in the hands of the state so I cannot say she was right.

[bolil]

Maybe she didn't have the money for a lawyer, I know I don't.

Disgusting.

[fr33]

Is not about that part.

Its about what she did after and her attitude of utter indifference at the state taking her children to make some bullshit point?

We have all seen kids raped and murdered after even one day in the hands of the state so I cannot say she was right.

She and her husband are learning the hard way that you don't give out any personal info to the agents of the state. That was a really dumb move on their part.

[Antischism]

Seems she let her 8&9 year old go for a walk with the little ones tagging behind; she was probably expecting an "around the block" and the kids pushed their limits.
When did letting your kids go for a walk in your neighborhood become "harms way?"

Is that the case? Like I stated, I don't know the full extent of the story nor all the details, but it came across to me that she made some bad decisions.

[jkob]

CPS doesn't remove kids for the fun of it nor is a the first or preferred course of action. I doubt this women's children would of been removed if she wasn't trying to make a point.

[willwash]

Is that the case? Like I stated, I don't know the full extent of the story nor all the details, but it came across to me that she made some bad decisions.

You are correct. There are lots of questions about this case. I think the main grievance here, however, centers around the irreproachably proven fact that, the instant *any* question arises, the first response is to confiscate the children.

[Smart3]

This religious nutjob endangered her children's lives. The oldest is only 9.

How the hell is that not a crime? to have your 9 year old babysit so many children?

I almost never agree with CPS, but this is one of those cases.


They live in Utah, not Los Angeles..

What's wrong with letting your kids go play outside?
Children should be monitored at all times. The "go play outside" approach is what created most of our problems. Historically, parents were much more involved in their children's lives, and we need to have that again.

[tod evans]

This religious nutjob endangered her children's lives. The oldest is only 9.

How the hell is that not a crime? to have your 9 year old babysit so many children?

I almost never agree with CPS, but this is one of those cases.


Children should be monitored at all times. The "go play outside" approach is what created most of our problems. Historically, parents were much more involved in their children's lives, and we need to have that again.

No kids eh?

[Smart3]

No kids eh?
Would be rather unusual, for a wealthy white young adult to have children, don't you?

[tod evans]

Would be rather unusual, for a wealthy white young adult to have children, don't you?

Succinct English would help me understand your query..

[Smart3]

Succinct English would help me understand your query..
I'm too young to be a father responsibly. So I am not. Not likely to change for at least ten years.

[tod evans]

I'm too young to be a father responsibly. So I am not. Not likely to change for at least ten years.

I assumed as much due to the state sucking diatribe that predicated my question.

Rest assured when/if you have children your opinions of kids/CPS and neighbors will all mature.

[jkob]

I doubt if it were just the 9 or even 8 year old there would of been that big of a deal. There being a 9, 8, 6, 4, and 1 year old is.

[69360]

CPS doesn't remove kids for the fun of it nor is a the first or preferred course of action. I doubt this women's children would of been removed if she wasn't trying to make a point.

Yes they do. But she should have played along with their game, I agree with that part.

[Smart3]

I assumed as much due to the state sucking diatribe that predicated my question.

Rest assured when/if you have children your opinions of kids/CPS and neighbors will all mature.
Nothing worse than old people stuck in their ways. I bet you think it should be legal to spank children.

[fisharmor]

Nothing worse than old people stuck in their ways. I bet you think it should be legal to spank children.

Yes, there is... young people stuck in their ways can be much worse.
The third time your son dances into traffic after you've told him not to, I hope for his sake you swat his ass good.

[Smart3]

Yes, there is... young people stuck in their ways can be much worse.
The third time your son dances into traffic after you've told him not to, I hope for his sake you swat his ass good.
I won't be molesting my child.

and if your child doesn't listen to you, it's your fault.

[tod evans]

Nothing worse than old people stuck in their ways. I bet you think it should be legal to spank children.

It's quite apparent that you would have benefitted from a few spankings as a child.

Now that you're past puberty,(?) the lessons you'll be taught just might leave scars.

[Smart3]

It's quite apparent that you would have benefitted from a few spankings as a child.

Now that you're past puberty,(?) the lessons you'll be taught just might leave scars.
I never disobeyed my mother. I was never punished. She explained what she wanted and I listened... you know, like a human being.

[PatriotOne]

I knew that by not cooperating I would very likely have my children taken away from me.

I gotta go with Team Nutjob here for the quoted text alone. Having your children taken away is NOT the way to change the system. That's just freaking crazy. That's like offering up your virgin daughter to the volcano Gods or something. It's sounding more like she's one of the reasons the State needs to intervene on occasion.

[tod evans]

I never disobeyed my mother. I was never punished. She explained what she wanted and I listened... you know, like a human being.

Life has a way of popping the nicest bubbles, enjoy it while you can.

[WM_in_MO]

I never disobeyed my mother. I was never punished. She explained what she wanted and I listened... you know, like a human being.

Congratulations, you were one of the kids that didn't need physical punishment to drive home the message.

I however didn't learn a damn thing til they pulled out the belt.

My younger sister would throw tantrums, but they didn't spank her as much as they did me. in fact I think it stopped around kindergarten age.

Same for the next brother.

The last brother however got as many whippings as I did.

Clearly one method of discipline and education fits all.

[fisharmor]

I won't be molesting my child.

and if your child doesn't listen to you, it's your fault.

Well, I'm marginally intelligent, and under divine mandate to put the best construction on things like this.
But not everyone is.
Perhaps you might want to reword your insinuation that I'm a child molester?

[mosquitobite]

CPS doesn't remove kids for the fun of it nor is a the first or preferred course of action.

Work for CPS do ya?

Either that or you've never had any involvement with them personally. Yes indeed they DO take them first chance they get. Usually on a Friday evening so you can't "lawyer up" or get a hearing the same day. Your kids get an automatic weekend with strangers and the state gets money from the federal government. I wouldn't wish that hell on ANYONE no matter how stupid I may think their stand is!

She should have taken off out of town after the first call. Let it be known to those here - if you get a CPS worker knocking on your door you ask them to wait while you call your lawyer (have one already!) and get a recorder out. Ask for a warrant and if possible - GET YOU AND THE KIDS OUT OF TOWN for a while! Til you can get your butt covered with legal protection!

[amy31416]

I never disobeyed my mother. I was never punished. She explained what she wanted and I listened... you know, like a human being.

I bet your mother would disagree...unless you were raised by the nanny, in which case she would disagree.

[amy31416]

Work for CPS do ya?

Either that or you've never had any involvement with them personally. Yes indeed they DO take them first chance they get. Usually on a Friday evening so you can't "lawyer up" or get a hearing the same day. Your kids get an automatic weekend with strangers and the state gets money from the federal government. I wouldn't wish that hell on ANYONE no matter how stupid I may think their stand is!

She should have taken off out of town after the first call. Let it be known to those here - if you get a CPS worker knocking on your door you ask them to wait while you call your lawyer (have one already!) and get a recorder out. Ask for a warrant and if possible - GET THE HELL OUT OF TOWN for a while! Til you can get your butt covered with legal protection!

Yeah, definitely. I would never let a gov't person in (of any stripe) without a warrant, and if it was about my kid--I'd leave town so fast it'd be ridiculous.

[moostraks]

CPS doesn't remove kids for the fun of it nor is a the first or preferred course of action. I doubt this women's children would of been removed if she wasn't trying to make a point.


What made child stealing profitable for CPS

To address the obvious free-for-all snatching of children that CAPTA had stimulated, the Committee crafted new federal legislation with the intent of creating accountability and clearer guidelines for the states child welfare agencies. During the crafting of P.L. 96-272 Chairman Miller’s concern was that the federal government was footing the bill for warehousing children in institutions and inappropriate settings without accountability. In 1980 the Adoption Assistance and Child Welfare Act, P.L. 96-272, was enacted. The act included provisions that “reasonable efforts” be made to prevent children from being unnecessarily removed from their homes and placed in foster care. Although CPS has always tried to buffalo the media and the public that they are involved with families due to some sort of horrific child abuse or neglect, there has never been any debate among national policy makers, researchers, and federal agencies that the vast majority of CPS cases are due to poverty or frivolous/social reasons and do not contain elements of real child abuse. If the cases did actually involve acts of abuse they would be criminal, identified and investigated by law enforcement, rather than social workers, and would be prosecuted as such. P.L. 96-272 came into effect partly because Congress determined that a large number of children were being unnecessarily removed from their homes, and, once removed, they were lost in the limbo of foster care for years, many until they just grew too old, when they were then put on the streets at the age of 18.

The Child Welfare League of America testified before a senate subcommittee: “In fact, there were many instances then, as now, of children being removed unnecessarily from their families. It is important to recognize that children are almost always traumatized by removal from their own families.” So, accountability from each states child protection agency was also written in. To receive the federal money the states would have to submit an annual report to the federal government, known as an AFCARS report, that specifically accounts for each child in state care. ACLU Children’s Rights Project attorney, Marcia Robinson Lowry, explained in her testimony to Congress: “As a condition of federal funding, states must have a reasonable information system to identify children in federally-funded state custody.” These requirements were implemented in 1980. Up until 1999 some states were still not filing their federally required AFCARS report to the federal government. According to Jeffrey Locke, former Commissioner of Social Services, the excuse to the legislature was that they “couldn’t figure out how towork their computer system.”

The “reasonable efforts” requirements were designed to address these issues by requiring the state’s child welfare agencies to have specific investigation and assessment policies to minimize frivolous removals, to provide “services” to address and ameliorate conditions that were detrimental to the child’s well-being; to place children with relatives when removal from the home was absolutely necessary; and make efforts to reunite families in a timely fashion. Methods to audit and track compliance with federal requirements were also built in. The states were to establish “citizen review panels” comprised of a specifically designated representation of the population which would include not only members of collateral professional communities involved in child protection, but “parents, foster parents, and former foster children.” Each state was to have at least three citizen review panels. The panels would essentially act as a standing jury of peers and would review CPS cases. Twenty years after P.L. 96- 272 went into effect the citizen review panels have never been established in most states.

Another means of creating accountability was to have the federal authority, U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, conduct compliance audits, which are known as Section 427 reviews. The method of enforcement that Congress devised to ensure that the states followed the federal law was to provide incentive funds to the states that documented their compliance with the federal regulations. The states would self-certify compliance, but could be subjected to “periodic” 427 reviews by the Dept. of Health & Human Services. Were the states to find themselves in non-compliance they would simply return the incentive funds. It would seem that providing cash to agencies that are allowed to self-document compliance is a somewhat less than intelligent system. It would be interesting to track down exactly how much money the state’s child “protective” agencies have returned to the government because they found themselves in non-compliance. Gee, maybe this is rocket science.

Like CAPTA, P.L. 96-272 could only have worked if the federal government demanded compliance and meticulous accountability, and they imposed sanctions for non-compliance. Even better–criminal charges for racketeering for intentional fraud. Mark Soler, director of the National Youth Law Center in California explained:

“The Department of Health & Human Services has failed to promulgate meaningful regulations to implement the Adoption Assistance and Child Welfare Act. It has applied even the minimal federal regulations that were developed in an inconsistent and arbitrary manner, and only token implementation of the laws protecting children.’

Even when HHS finds overwhelming evidence of lack of compliance during 427 reviews, no sanctions are imposed and they continue to keep the fed $$$ pouring in – in violation of their own regulations. Not so much as a slap on the hand or even token admonishment. Certainly explains how CPS developed their arrogance and contempt for any authority – because there is none. Their confidence that they are free from the feds insisting on compliance with the law is well illustrated by the foster care numbers which increased dramatically after CAPTA began feeding federal dollars into the state’s child protection agencies, then dropped equally dramatically after the enactment of P.L.96-272, which was supposed to create more specific federal regulation and accountability. However, once the state agencies saw that the federal government was not enforcing compliance, the foster care numbers soared once again.

Michael Petit, Deputy Director of the Child Welfare League of America, stated in his testimony before Congress: “A 427 is a meaningless process for most of the states. It represents no kind of sanctions to the states whatsoever for non-compliance.” Marcia Robinson Lowry told Congress: “States are passing HHS audits with systems in which no reasonable person could consider that children are being well treated. It is virtually impossible to fail a 427 audit.”

The initial concept of “reasonable efforts” was the only conclusion that any rational person could come to: rather than disrupt children’s lives, and traumatize them by seizing them from non- abusive situations and placing them with strangers (who are often no better, and sometimes far worse), assist families in overcoming their obstacles and problems by providing support and services. The idea never worked, though, because it has always been more profitable to too many to remove children rather than keep them at home. Rather than offer support and simple, practical services to families CPS forged contracts with vendors. Now private businesses, under the guise of “service providers”, could mushroom into existence knowing that their sugar daddy, CPS, would provide a never-ending flow of coerced clients. The market potential is unlimited – potentially every mother, father, grandparent, and child in the country. Rather than offering practical, meaningful services that are germane to the families circumstances, CPS clients are ordered to engage in “services” with CPS-contracted vendors; special interest groups who are dependent on CPS for their income and profit by maintaining the levels of children in foster care, and whose interests are protected by a bureaucracy intent on securing it’s own survival and protecting unlimited growth.

The extent of which CPS is allowed to continue to operate while being so far out of compliance with the existing state and federal laws is mind boggling. It would be a challenge to find any other agency in our countries history that operated in such gross and blatant violation of the law with absolutely no intervention from the administration. Tens of millions of tax dollars are being squandered on a system that is destroying families and causing lifelong emotional ruin to children – and those are the lucky ones who live through it.

The most egregious area of outright criminal fraud is CPS’s practice of filing their federally required documentation of compliance in secrecy through the courts. The federal foster care reimbursements are channeled through the Title IV-E section of the Social Security Act. Each states child welfare agency enters into a contract with the federal government, which is referred to as their Title IV-E state plan. It is this contract that spells out the responsibilities that CPS must, by law, comply with in order to receive their federal funding. To document compliance with the fed regs CPS must file a form through the courts in each individual case. In Massachusetts these forms are referred to as a “29-C.” 42 U.S. Code, ss 672 reads:

“These requirements are not mere formalities. The Finance Committee of Congress, in preparing its summary for final passage of the Adoption Assistance and Child Welfare Act of 1980, P.L. 96-272, stated; ` The Committee is aware of allegations that the judicial determination requirement (sic: that a judge makes a determination that a child needs to be removed from the home) can become a mere pro forma exercise in paper shuffling to obtain federal funding. While this could occur in some instances, the Committee is unwilling to accept as a general proposition that the judiciaries of the States would so lightly treat a responsibility placed upon them by federal statute for the protection of children.”

1980 U.S. Code Cong. and Admin. News: “A judicial determination of those efforts (reasonable efforts, as defined in the Act) serves to closely examine, in the case of each individual child, whether reasonable efforts were made to keep the family intact.” In accordance with the federal requirements the Massachusetts legislature enacted G.L. c.119 ss 29b, which requires all judges to certify that the Department of Social Services met the obligation grounded in the federal statute of making reasonable efforts to protect the child short of removing him or her from the parents, and, if the child was removed, making it possible for the child to return home in a timely manner. Rather than “closely examining”, in Massachusetts this grave responsibility is carried out by judges by rubber stamping stacks of 29c forms that simply contain three “yes” or “no” check boxes. In many instances making three check marks is even too much work for Massachusetts judges and they rubber stamp the forms while leaving them blank – never mind actually verifying that the “reasonable efforts” were made. In return for these forms DSS receives it’s federal money.

The three questions are:

1. Continuation in the home is contrary to the wellbeing of the child?

2. Reasonable efforts have been made prior to the placement of the child to prevent or eliminate the need for removal of the child from his/her home?

3. Reasonable efforts have been made to make it possible for the child to return to his parent/guardian?

Children’s Bureau (the federal authority). She told me that the federal government was under the impression that all parties were present in the court room at the time of the filing of the 29c’s, so that the parents attorneys had the opportunity to object, rebut, or verify the “reasonable efforts.” In reality, no one sees the federal forms except the judges and a representative of DSS’s main legal department. Attorneys ask us how we ever “got our hands on” the 29c forms, as we have never yet met an attorney who has seen the forms, let alone have been notified of the filing hearing. We even have forms on which the “no” boxes were checked, yet the children were still removed from their homes and federal funds collected for them.

By seizing children illegally in violation of the Title IV-E requirements, then filing false documents in secrecy through the courts to obtain federal funding, CPS is defrauding the federal government with intent. CPS should be subject to investigation and prosecution by the U.S. Attorneys Office. They should be held liable for the restitution of all illegally obtained funds, and prosecuted for perjury, obstruction of justice, and the fraudulent collection of federal funds under the False Statements and Accountability Act of 1996, P.L. 104-292 110 stat 3459, 42 U.S.C.S. 670-679a; P.L. 96-272; C.F.R. part 1356; and Title IV-E. I have discussed this issue with the Inspector Generals Office and they felt it could possible be prosecuted under RICO, yet they have also failed to act, possibly because it isn’t just CPS/DSS who is committing federal fraud, but also the judges who are signing the documents.

In 1988 George Miller, the original architect of P.L. 96-272, and Chairman of the congressionally appointed Select Committee on Children, Youth, and Families, recognized the fraud being committed in the name of child “protection”, and stated:

“What has been demonstrated here is that you have a system that is simply in contempt. This system has been sued and sued and orders have been issued and they just continue on their merry way. And HHS just continues to look the other way. You have a system that is not only out of control, it’s illegal at this point. What you are really engaged in is state sponsored child abuse

CPS destruction of the family for profit, I can’t imagine a more NAZI like agency. I will never stop fighting corrupt business ruining lives. The only people who believe CPS helps families are the families CPS hasn’t helped.


http://familyrights.azproject.org/2012/12/28/cps-makes-money-to-take-your-children-and-never-return-them-state-kidnapping-for-profit/

[jkob]

Work for CPS do ya?

Either that or you've never had any involvement with them personally. Yes indeed they DO take them first chance they get. Usually on a Friday evening so you can't "lawyer up" or get a hearing the same day. Your kids get an automatic weekend with strangers and the state gets money from the federal government. I wouldn't wish that hell on ANYONE no matter how stupid I may think their stand is!

She should have taken off out of town after the first call. Let it be known to those here - if you get a CPS worker knocking on your door you ask them to wait while you call your lawyer (have one already!) and get a recorder out. Ask for a warrant and if possible - GET YOU AND THE KIDS OUT OF TOWN for a while! Til you can get your butt covered with legal protection!

I have a family member who works as a CPS investigator and yes it does bother me the way you guys portray them as Nazi Gestapo since I know it isn't true. There is a certain level of personal discretion when it comes to CPS investigations and with that comes the potential for overstepping boundaries or abuse. It can happen and has, I won't deny that but that's on an individual level. This conspiracy idea that they take children from loving caring homes to get more federal money is ludicrous, the unfortunate fact there is no shortage of real abusive unfit parents. The vast majority of CPS investigations result in nothing.

[moostraks]

CPS doesn't remove kids for the fun of it nor is a the first or preferred course of action. I doubt this women's children would of been removed if she wasn't trying to make a point.


Meanwhile, Emanuel's mother was forced to jump through all kinds of bureaucratic hoops in order to get her children returned. She was ordered to counseling 3 times a week, take parenting classes, have a domestic engineer come to her home and make sure that she was cleaning and keeping the house in an orderly fashion, and even take a nutrition class, All with the promise that completely these things would guarantee the return of her children.

Two days after she finished all the requirements CPS moved to terminate her rights on grounds of medical neglect.

The CPS and social workers who testified against her used innuendo, and lies with no evidence of any neglect or abuse. In fact, their entire case was based on their contention that the mother did not seek medical services for her children. The testifying CPS worker testified that there were no medical records to be found. When the mother produced the medical records of all the children the worker admitted to not really contacting the doctors that she knew treated the children.

The few outside witnesses CPS called spoke on behalf of the mother not against her.

Witnesses testifying on behalf of the mother came fields in education, health care and mental health all of who had ample time to observe the family while it was intact. Despite these witnesses and the lack of evidence supplied by the CPS her rights were terminated. In the forty page explanation the judge wrote justifying the termination, the judge's sole justification for not returning the children to their mother was that the mother smoked cigarettes, thus jeopardizing the childrens health.

Ironically, one child was left in her care, and her rights were upheld to a second child with unlimited visitation though the child was not returned home.

This case is not unique. Across the nation families are being ripped apart and families removed from their homes with little or no reason. According to Nancy Schaefer a Georgia State Senator who has spoken on behalf of these families "Caseworkers are often guilty of fraud. They withhold and destroy evidence and seek to terminate parental rights unnecessarily."

The simple truth is that removing children from their homes permanently has become a big business for social service agencies. Where once these workers were dedicated to protecting children and trying to keep families intact when at all possible, now their efforts are in making money for their agencies.

In 1997, Bill Clinton signed a bill that paid bonuses from $4000 to $12,000 per child to agencies who found adoptive homes for children in foster care. While this bill was motivated to provide children who did not have permanent homes a loving home, social welfare agencies saw it as get rich quick scheme.

As Schaefer points out; "Parents are victimized by 'the system' that makes a profit for holding children longer and 'bonuses' for not returning children."

Since the passage of this law the number of parents who rights have been terminated has rose from 37,000 in 1997 to 67,000 in 2005 and is still rising.

While Social service agencies and CPS workers are competing with each other to see how quickly and how many children they can make available to the agencies for these hefty bonuses children and parents are suffering.

No concern is given to the emotional or mental health of a child removed from a loving home and placed in foster care. Many of these children report an unending sense of loss and pain, lonliness, and isolation. They find themselves often unable to become attached to even loving foster parents for fear of being hurt again. They have no trust in the system that was meant to protect them. Many of these children feel anger and act out causing problems in schools and the communities in which they live...

Ironically, The Adoption and Safe Family Act signed into law by President Clinton in an effort to find homes for children who had no parents and were legal orphans, has resulted not in a decrease of these orphans but increase. In a short two year period from 1997 to 1999 the number of these children increased from 5,970 to 24,219.

Many of these children could have safely and happily remained in their homes. Instead they are being shuffled from foster home to foster home, living a life of uncertainty. Missing out on the love of their parents and siblings that they both need and deserve.

There seems to be no end in sight for the plight of these children. CPS workers continue to move to terminate parental rights at an alarming rate in order to offer those wishing to adopt a large pool of children to choose from, thus earning their agencies the bonuses for such adoptions.

As long as CPS workers are protected by immunity from false accusations, and even perjury, as long as court judges continue to allow these terminations in order to line the counties coffers, and as long as laws remain on the books that encourage the removal of children from their homes for profit, then children like Emanuel will continue to be ripped from their home, and live the uncertain life of having no loving parent to guide him.
http://voices.yahoo.com/child-protective-services-protecting-profits-not-children-4266705.html?cat=7

[mosquitobite]

I have a family member who works as a CPS investigator and yes it does bother me the way you guys portray them as Nazi Gestapo since I know it isn't true. There is a certain level of personal discretion when it comes to CPS investigations and with that comes the potential for overstepping boundaries or abuse. It can happen and has, I won't deny that but that's on an individual level. This conspiracy idea that they take children from loving caring homes to get more federal money is ludicrous, the unfortunate fact there is no shortage of real abusive unfit parents. The vast majority of CPS investigations result in nothing.

So your information is anecdotal based on one family member.

Do you have family members that work in CPS in all 50 states?

Some states ARE better than others, I'll give you that. But please stop painting them with a rainbow and unicorn brush. "it's for the children!"

[moostraks]

I have a family member who works as a CPS investigator and yes it does bother me the way you guys portray them as Nazi Gestapo since I know it isn't true. There is a certain level of personal discretion when it comes to CPS investigations and with that comes the potential for overstepping boundaries or abuse. It can happen and has, I won't deny that but that's on an individual level. This conspiracy idea that they take children from loving caring homes to get more federal money is ludicrous, the unfortunate fact there is no shortage of real abusive unfit parents. The vast majority of CPS investigations result in nothing.

The numbers are against your position being a rare occasion rather than the norm. It is nice to keep these numbers as to be taken on an individual case basis as you can try to dismiss them but when you start to see the systemic abuse because of the totality of similar scenarios it becomes much harder to plead the argument of for the good of the children the agency exists.

[RockEnds]

I have a family member who works as a CPS investigator and yes it does bother me the way you guys portray them as Nazi Gestapo since I know it isn't true. There is a certain level of personal discretion when it comes to CPS investigations and with that comes the potential for overstepping boundaries or abuse. It can happen and has, I won't deny that but that's on an individual level. This conspiracy idea that they take children from loving caring homes to get more federal money is ludicrous, the unfortunate fact there is no shortage of real abusive unfit parents. The vast majority of CPS investigations result in nothing.

My dealings with CPS have been as a child advocate. I no longer volunteer in that capacity, and have not done so in several years. However, please understand that confidentiality prevents open and honest discussion on such matters. Also understand that there is a difference in the way cases are handled even when the cases come out of the same office. These differences are often dependent upon the individual case worker, the judge, the attorneys, GAL, and service providers. Just because you see your relative as a nice person does not mean the system is fair to all families everywhere.

[WM_in_MO]

So your information is anecdotal based on one family member.

Do you have family members that work in CPS in all 50 states?

Some states ARE better than others, I'll give you that. But please stop painting them with a rainbow and unicorn brush. "it's for the children!"

Yes, this. Lets remember that this is a government entity that is allowed to come in and take your children from you without being convicted of a crime.

[amy31416]

The numbers are against your position being a rare occasion rather than the norm. It is nice to keep these numbers as to be taken on an individual case basis as you can try to dismiss them but when you start to see the systemic abuse because of the totality of similar scenarios it becomes much harder to plead the argument of for the good of the children the agency exists.

Kluge isn't nearly as anti-authority as I am, but even he will say "do NOT fuck with the CPS," -- his mother is a social worker who is pretty experienced with the system and took him along for many of the cases.

Anyone who defends them on a regular basis needs to read up on the Godboldo case. http://www.cchrint.org/2013/04/23/modern-day-heroes-detroit-mother-maryanne-godboldo-attorney-allison-folmar/

[moostraks]

My introduction into child protective service cases was due to a grandmother in an adjoining state who called me with her tragic story. Her two granddaughters had been taken from her daughter who lived in my district. Her daughter was told wrongly that if she wanted to see her children again she should sign a paper and give up her children. Frightened and young, the daughter did. I have since discovered that parents are often threatened into cooperation of permanent separation of their children.

The children were taken to another county and placed in foster care. The foster parents were told wrongly that they could adopt the children. The grandmother then jumped through every hoop known to man in order to get her granddaughters. When the case finally came to court it was made evident by one of the foster parent’s children that the foster parents had, at any given time, 18 foster children and that the foster mother had an inappropriate relationship with the caseworker.

In the courtroom, the juvenile judge, acted as though she was shocked and said the two girls would be removed quickly. They were not removed. Finally, after much pressure being applied to the Department of Family and Children Services of Georgia (DFCS), the children were driven to South Georgia to meet their grandmother who gladly drove to meet them. After being with their grandmother two or three days, the judge, quite out of the blue, wrote up a new order to send the girls to their father, who previously had no interest in the case and who lived on the West Coast. The father was in “adult entertainment”. His girlfriend worked as an “escort” and his brother, who also worked in the business, had a sexual charge brought against him.

Within a couple of days the father was knocking on the grandmother’s door and took the girls kicking and screaming to California.

The father developed an unusual relationship with the former foster parents and soon moved back to the southeast, and the foster parents began driving to the father’s residence and picking up the little girls for visits. The oldest child had told her mother and grandmother on two different occasions that the foster father molested her.

To this day after five years, this loving, caring blood relative grandmother does not even have visitation privileges with the children. The little girls are in my opinion permanently traumatized and the young mother of the girls was so traumatized with shock when the girls were first removed from her that she has not recovered.

Throughout this case and through the process of dealing with multiple other mismanaged cases of the Department of Family and Children Services (DFCS), I have worked with other desperate parents and children across the state because they have no rights and no one with whom to turn. I have witnessed ruthless behavior from many caseworkers, social workers, investigators, lawyers, judges, therapists, and others such as those who “pick up” the children. I have been stunned by what I have seen and heard from victims all over the state of Georgia.

In this report, I am focusing on the Georgia Department of Family and Children Services (DFCS). However, I believe Child Protective Services nationwide has become corrupt and that the entire system is broken almost beyond repair. I am convinced parents and families should be warned of the dangers.

The Department of Child Protective Services, known as the Department of Family and Children Service (DFCS) in Georgia and other titles in other states, has become a “protected empire” built on taking children and separating families. This is not to say that there are not those children who do need to be removed from wretched situations and need protection. This report is concerned with the children and parents caught up in “legal kidnapping,” ineffective policies, and DFCS who do does not remove a child or children when a child is enduring torment and abuse. (See Exhibit A and Exhibit B)

In one county in my District, I arranged a meeting for thirty-seven families to speak freely and without fear. These poor parents and grandparents spoke of their painful, heart wrenching encounters with DFCS. Their suffering was overwhelming. They wept and cried. Some did not know where their children were and had not seen them in years. I had witnessed the “Gestapo” at work and I witnessed the deceitful conditions under which children were taken in the middle of the night, out of hospitals, off of school buses, and out of homes. In one county a private drug testing business was operating within the DFCS department that required many, many drug tests from parents and individuals for profit. In another county children were not removed when they were enduring the worst possible abuse. Due to being exposed, several employees in a particular DFCS office were fired. However, they have now been rehired either in neighboring counties or in the same county again. According to the calls I am now receiving, the conditions in that county are returning to the same practices that they had before the light was shown on their deeds. Having worked with probably 300 cases statewide, I am convinced there is no responsibility and no accountability in the system.

I have come to the conclusion:

· that poor parents often times are targeted to lose their children because they do not have the where-with-all to hire lawyers and fight the system. Being poor does not mean you are not a good parent or that you do not love your child, or that your child should be removed and placed with strangers;

· that all parents are capable of making mistakes and that making a mistake does not mean your children are always to be removed from the home. Even if the home is not perfect, it is home; and that’s where a child is the safest and where he or she wants to be, with family;

· that parenting classes, anger management classes, counseling referrals, therapy classes and on and on are demanded of parents with no compassion by the system even while they are at work and while their children are separated from them. This can take months or even years and it emotionally devastates both children and parents. Parents are victimized by “the system” that makes a profit for holding children longer and “bonuses” for not returning children;

· that caseworkers and social workers are oftentimes guilty of fraud. They withhold evidence. They fabricate evidence and they seek to terminate parental rights. However, when charges are made against them, the charges are ignored;

· that the separation of families is growing as a business because local governments have grown accustomed to having taxpayer dollars to balance their ever-expanding budgets;

· that Child Protective Service and Juvenile Court can always hide behind a confidentiality clause in order to protect their decisions and keep the funds flowing. There should be open records and “court watches”! Look who is being paid! There are state employees, lawyers, court investigators, court personnel, and judges. There are psychologists, and psychiatrists, counselors, caseworkers, therapists, foster parents, adoptive parents, and on and on. All are looking to the children in state custody to provide job security. Parents do not realize that social workers are the glue that holds “the system” together that funds the court, the child’s attorney, and the multiple other jobs including DFCS’s attorney.

· that The Adoption and the Safe Families Act, set in motion by President Bill Clinton, offered cash
“bonuses” to the states for every child they adopted out of foster care. In order to receive the “adoption incentive bonuses” local child protective services need more children. They must have merchandise (children) that sell and you must have plenty of them so the buyer can choose. Some counties are known to give a $4,000 bonus for each child adopted and an additional $2,000 for a “special needs” child. Employees work to keep the federal dollars flowing;

· that there is double dipping. The funding continues as long as the child is out of the home. When a child in foster care is placed with a new family then “adoption bonus funds” are available. When a child is placed in a mental health facility and is on 16 drugs per day, like two children of a constituent of mine, more funds are involved;

· that there are no financial resources and no real drive to unite a family and help keep them together;

· that the incentive for social workers to return children to their parents quickly after taking them has disappeared and who in protective services will step up to the plate and say, “This must end!” No one, because they are all in the system together and a system with no leader and no clear policies will always fail the children. Look at the waste in government that is forced upon the tax payer;

· that the “Policy Manuel” is considered “the last word” for DFCS. However, it is too long, too confusing, poorly written and does not take the law into consideration;

· that if the lives of children were improved by removing them from their homes, there might be a greater need for protective services, but today all children are not always safer. Children, of whom I am aware, have been raped and impregnated in foster care and the head of a Foster Parents Association in my District was recently arrested because of child molestation;

· that some parents are even told if they want to see their children or grandchildren, they must divorce their spouse. Many, who are under privileged, feeling they have no option, will divorce and then just continue to live together. This is an anti-family policy, but parents will do anything to get their children home with them.

· fathers, (non-custodial parents) I must add, are oftentimes treated as criminals without access to their own children and have child support payments strangling the very life out of them;

· that the Foster Parents Bill of Rights does not bring out that a foster parent is there only to care for a child until the child can be returned home. Many Foster Parents today use the Foster Parent Bill of Rights to hire a lawyer and seek to adopt the child from the real parents, who are desperately trying to get their child home and out of the system;

· that tax dollars are being used to keep this gigantic system afloat, yet the victims, parents, grandparents, guardians and especially the children, are charged for the system’s services.

· that grandparents have called from all over the State of Georgia trying to get custody of their grandchildren. DFCS claims relatives are contacted, but there are cases that prove differently. Grandparents who lose their grandchildren to strangers have lost their own flesh and blood. The children lose their family heritage and grandparents, and parents too, lose all connections to their heirs.

· that The National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect in 1998 reported that six times as many children died in foster care than in the general public and that once removed to official “safety”, these children are far more likely to suffer abuse, including sexual molestation than in the general population.

· That according to the California Little Hoover Commission Report in 2003, 30% to 70% of the children in California group homes do not belong there and should not have been removed from their homes.

FINAL REMARKS

On my desk are scores of cases of exhausted families and troubled children. It has been beyond me to turn my back on these suffering, crying, and sometimes beaten down individuals. We are mistreating the most innocent. Child Protective Services have become adult centered to the detriment of children. No longer is judgment based on what the child needs or who the child wants to be with or what is really best for the whole family; it is some adult or bureaucrat who makes the decisions, based often on just hearsay, without ever consulting a family member, or just what is convenient, profitable, or less troublesome for a director of DFCS.

I have witnessed such injustice and harm brought to these families that I am not sure if I even believe reform of the system is possible! The system cannot be trusted. It does not serve the people. It obliterates families and children simply because it has the power to do so. Children deserve better. Families deserve better. It’s time to pull back the curtain and set our children and families free...


Senator Nancy Schaefer
50th District of Georgia

http://fightcps.com/2008/02/29/report-of-georgia-senator-nancy-schaefer-on-cps-corruption/

One more for now since some people like to dismiss CPS abuses as being isolated cases.

[moostraks]

Kluge isn't nearly as anti-authority as I am, but even he will say "do NOT fuck with the CPS," -- his mother is a social worker who is pretty experienced with the system and took him along for many of the cases.

Anyone who defends them on a regular basis needs to read up on the Godboldo case. http://www.cchrint.org/2013/04/23/modern-day-heroes-detroit-mother-maryanne-godboldo-attorney-allison-folmar/

Most will learn the hard way as they will not believe how bad it is or how bad they can be. Getting an attorney and knowing ones rights will empower you to know just how far to bend over but they mean it when they say you will "do it their way if you want to see your children again".

I wish social workers who have honest intentions would bail out and join private agencies and join in the battle to destroy government corruption such as this agency exhibits. Godboldo :D

[mosquitobite]

One more for now since some people like to dismiss CPS abuses as being isolated cases.

And that Senator just happens to be dead now. Pretty unusual circumstances around her death too, IIRC.

The mafia doesn't like light being shone.

[mosquitobite]

Yes, this. Lets remember that this is a government entity that is allowed to come in and take your children from you without being convicted of a crime.

Guilty until proven innocent...because it's "for the children!"

[Lindsey]

It surprising to me, how many people I know, that have had CPS visits. These are people who are very close to me, and I know they are doing a good job parenting. When I was a kid, CPS visits only seemed to occur in extreme circumstances. Now if your kid arrives at school with a scratch, you could be facing a CPS visit depending on how your 6 year old describes how they got scratched.

If you have a home birth, and don't get your kid a birth certificate, can CPS still kidnap that child?

[devil21]

By signing a "safety plan", you are putting your home and your kids under CPS' jurisdiction and supervision. You create a case file on yourself that they will use as the paper trail to start harassing you.

http://www.deltabravo.net/cms/plugins/content/content.php?content.175



The Child Protective Services agent or social worker may ask you to sign a "safety plan" or voluntarily agree to home visitation. Be careful if asked to do this.

A CPS worker may "offer" (demand) this as a means of either keeping your children now or having them placed back home on a trial basis. The purpose of these programs is to gather enough evidence (real or imagined) to build a case to take your children. Remember, states only get federal money when they put your children in foster care, not when they leave them with you under a home visitation program.

These plans often require parents to agree not to use corporal punishment or other legal methods of child rearing. For a family that has been using corporal punishment to suddenly stop creates frustration and confusion and increases the likelihood that the parent will react out of anger. It also sends a message to the child that he doesn’t need to obey his parents to avoid a spanking because a state agent will come out and tell them they can’t spank him. If the original report had to do with problems with the child’s behavior and the parent’s use of discipline; this safety plan would create chaos.

Another tactic is to impose restrictions that are outside the parent’s control, such as requiring that a child do well medically even though the child has a diagnosed condition that would prevent this. The child’s illness leaves a high probability that he will be sick, thus the parents have no control over compliance with the safety plan and are simply counting the days until their child is removed.

In one such case, the child was diagnosed with a brittle bone disease and had even fractured while in foster care. The parents were asked to sign a safety plan which required the child not to have another fracture. The chances that he would re-fracture were very high and totally outside the parents control.

In another case, a child had a weight disorder and had gained an additional five pounds during a short foster care stay. The parents were asked to sign a safety plan which required the child to lose weight. The parents had been taking their child to doctors for years to no avail. Even foster care couldn’t make the child lose weight. How then could the parents be expected to control their child’s weight when the doctors and the state had failed?

In yet another case, the parents of a child with a seizure disorder were asked to sign a safety plan which required their child not to have seizures.

Sometimes the plan is simply to have the child’s grades improve, yet this is still outside the parents control. The parents can do everything in their power to facilitate good grades, but it’s ultimately up to the child to perform.

All of these plans will fail and the child will end up in state custody. The fact that the parents have "failed" one plan gives the state grounds not to offer another plan. Thus, they will move for permanency (termination and adoption).

Safety plans are intentionally vague and therefore impossible to follow. The plan might read, "parent's will maintain a home appropriate for children". This is a subjective standard- you may think you home is excellent for children, but the CPS worker or agent might think that because you don't have safety plugs in your electrical outlets, the home isn't "appropriate". And they may get away with claims like this.

For desperate parents, the plan might seem like an easy way to get your child home or keep him home. In the long run, however, signing a safety plan could cost you your child permanently.

Bottom line - If you're not guilty of abuse or neglect, don't tolerate an unwarranted government assault and don't "settle" by agreeing to services you don't need. If the agency believes you are guilty of abuse or neglect, make them prove it in court.

[devil21]

http://www.deerparkdivorcelawyers.com/Family-Law-Blog/2012/February/HELP-CPS-wants-me-to-sign-a-Child-Safety-and-Eva.aspx



This is a very real scenario that plays out every day in and around the Houston area. I have been handling CPS cases for well over a decade, and have heard hundreds of these types of stories about how people were pressured to sign the “Voluntary” Safety Plans in order to keep their kids out of foster care. What CPS does not tell you is that if they take your child from you, they have a very high burden to explain to the judge about why they took the child without asking the judge first.

So what happens after you sign this document?

First let me say that CPS loves to use these “Safety” plans. Although CPS usually writes on them they are only good for a month, CPS will actually expect you to follow them for much longer. You have to pay attention to the language that states that by signing this agreement, the parents agree to complete all services listed on the plan. The services that CPS recommends will almost never be able to be completed in the month time frame that is initially explained to the parents.

I have had clients come to me in desperation after 6 months have passed and they have cooperated fully, and yet CPS still has not returned their child to them under these plans. The reason CPS prefers to use these plans is because CPS are the only ones that can modify or terminate them. They control all the terms of the plan and the end date. CPS tries to use the threat of going to court to coerce you to sign it, but what they do not tell you is that court is the BEST place you can go.

If you are in court, armed with an experienced lawyer, you get put CPS on trial as to why they are keeping you from your child. You get to make the CPS caseworker and the supervisor answer all of your questions. You get to have a judge listen to both sides of the story and determine who is right. CPS will not tell you that their burden in court to keep your kids away from you is very high. CPS does not want your case in court; they do not want you questioning their tactics or their plans. CPS wants you to sign the “Safety Plan.”

CPS law is a very specific area of the law. Just because a lawyer practices family law, or is even Board Certified in family law, does not mean they know how to fight your CPS case. When you are hiring a CPS lawyer, you need to know whether your lawyer is familiar with Texas Family Code section 262.201. If you ask a potential attorney what this code provision is, and they cannot immediately tell you what that section covers and how you can use it to beat CPS, they are not well versed in defending a CPS case.

I take great pride in defending people wrongfully accused of abusing their children all over the State of Texas. I also have been very successful in not only having children returned to their parents, but also having CPS punished when they break the law. You can read about my results in the Miller case here.

[The Free Hornet]

Its about what she did after and her attitude of utter indifference at the state taking her children to make some bullshit point?

So if you express indifference at the state taking your kids, then the state will take your kids? She is correct here:


I was polite but frank. I did not want to live in a state of fear and didn't appreciate them trying to make me feel afraid. I told them I trusted God. They didn't understand that that did not mean I never expected anything bad to happen to my children, only that I knew that everything would be all right in the end. They reported me to DFCS, the Division of Family and Child Services.

Here is the fuck up, and it wasn't with the mother:


After talking with my husband, who foolishly divulged all my shortcomings to her [the social worker], she left.

Had she resisted at this next point, it would be far, far worse:


This evening, as I was returning from an outing with a friend, I was confronted by two officers and a social worker who took my baby from me and informed me that the other children had already been removed.

Let's hope she continues to battle them in court and in the public arena. If hubby backs down, at least the kids still grow up with one strong role model. I support her rights and these decisions 100%.


***********************



Children should be monitored at all times. The "go play outside" approach is what created most of our problems. Historically, parents were much more involved in their children's lives, and we need to have that again.

Constant monitoring is bullshit. I can't imagine the harm this does to them. Society is raising pychologically crippled crybabies with no useful skills.

*I* don't have kids but I sure as fuck wouldn't want useless ones. What society seems to be advocating is mandating 'helicopter parents':


Madeline Levine has written on helicopter parenting. Judith Warner recounts Levine's descriptions of parents who are physically "hyper-present" but psychologically absent.[5] Katie Roiphe, commenting on Levine's work in Slate elaborates on myths about helicopter parenting: "[I]t is about too much presence, but it's also about the wrong kind of presence. In fact, it can be reasonably read by children as absence, as not caring about what is really going on with them ... As Levine points out, it is the confusion of overinvolvement with stability." Similarly, she reminds readers that helicopter parenting is not the product of "bad or pathetic people with deranged values ... It is not necessarily a sign of parents who are ridiculous or unhappy or nastily controlling. It can be a product of good intentions gone awry, the play of culture on natural parental fears."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_parent

I think the Free Range Kids author (http://www.freerangekids.com/) has it right.

[presence]

http://www.deerparkdivorcelawyers.com/Family-Law-Blog/2012/February/HELP-CPS-wants-me-to-sign-a-Child-Safety-and-Eva.aspx

My next door neighbor is in $2500 and 5/24 months into "safety plan" mode: He's in trouble for "verbal abuse"; telling his daughter, "you can't go to high school in those shorts because it makes you look like a whore". Had to give up his guns, no beer in the house, drug testing (even though they're not accused of any drug crime), monthly visits and surprise spot inspections; and of course court appointments for the next 2 years. Normal guy, normal kid. Sign here or else. Asshole CPS Cops on my street all the time now.

[angelatc]

WTF? Have all of you lived such sheltered lives?

I guess growing up on a farm gives me a different perspective. Every day was an adventure.

This is the type of stuff that reminds me how doomed we actually are. Over a certain age think she's a great parent for allowing the the older kids to take the younger kids out for a walk. Under a certain age think she's a horrible parent who deserves to lose her kids because she let the older kids take the younger kids for a walk.

[angelatc]

I have a family member who works as a CPS investigator and yes it does bother me the way you guys portray them as Nazi Gestapo since I know it isn't true. There is a certain level of personal discretion when it comes to CPS investigations and with that comes the potential for overstepping boundaries or abuse. It can happen and has, I won't deny that but that's on an individual level. This conspiracy idea that they take children from loving caring homes to get more federal money is ludicrous, the unfortunate fact there is no shortage of real abusive unfit parents. The vast majority of CPS investigations result in nothing.


She is a horrible person who busts up families.

[devil21]

My next door neighbor is in $2500 and 5/24 months into "safety plan" mode: He's in trouble for "verbal abuse"; telling his daughter, "you can't go to high school in those shorts because it makes you look like a whore". Had to give up his guns, no beer in the house, drug testing (even though they're not accused of any drug crime), monthly visits and surprise spot inspections; and of course court appointments for the next 2 years. Normal guy, normal kid. Sign here or else. Asshole CPS Cops on my street all the time now.

All for exercising his parental right to control his minor child's clothing? Doesn't surprise me but the excuses for CPS to get involved get flimsier and flimsier. He's a cash cow for CPS now.

Mooooo

Btw, if your neighbor doesn't know yet, tell him to start saving his money if there's a court appointed "Guardian ad Litem" attorney involved. After the case is resolved (in whatever form that takes) your neighbor will be ordered to pay all or a portion of the GAL's "legal fees". Did CPS tell your neighbor that GAL's are paid, by statute, in the range of $75-$100 per HOUR while "working" on his case? If a GAL is involved, he should expect a bill for...ohh...$10,000 when the case is over. Doesn't pay? Driver's license suspended, contempt of court charge, etc. CPS is EVIL.

[Jeremy]

sorry but she could have avoided that so easily.. when it comes to kids and you know the government will take them, you do NOT risk the kid's wellbeing over making a point.. this is fucking bullshit. I am all for standing up to the state but she knew what she was doing and still did it?? still allowed the fucking psychopaths from CPS to take her children?!?! those kids could be raped and killed and she wants to make a point??????!!!!

YOU DO NOT DO THAT TO KIDS!!!!! she knew they would suffer??? this is fucking being a terrible parent and nothing more.



sorry but this one I will not agree with.. I wont defend the state either but holy shit..



you protect kids by ALL MEANS. dying for your child should not even be a thought so lettting this happen does not make one bit of sense to me.. when I think about just what I would do for my own children this story leaves me confused and sick for what that mother did..
Seriously. At the very least play dumb and say you didn't know your kids wandered off so far.

[angelatc]

Seriously. At the very least play dumb and say you didn't know your kids wandered off so far.

You can't reason with psychopaths. It is best not to say anything.

[presence]

This is the type of stuff that reminds me how doomed we actually are. Over a certain age think she's a great parent for allowing the the older kids to take the younger kids out for a walk. Under a certain age think she's a horrible parent who deserves to lose her kids because she let the older kids take the younger kids for a walk.


took me a second to find this one...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUaEtf1s23w

[angelatc]

took me a second to find this one...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUaEtf1s23w

Terrifies me.

[susano]

There is only one way to obtain freedom and that is by learning to trust the Lord. That is why our coins are stamped with the words, In God We Trust. The founding fathers understood that they would not have succeeded if they did not rely on God. Many of them made incredible sacrifices, often allowing their loved ones to suffer and die in addition to pledging their entire lives to the cause of freedom. They were only able to make these sacrifices because they trusted that God would make all things right in the end.

The police expressed concern over my children. I was polite but frank. I did not want to live in a state of fear and didn't appreciate them trying to make me feel afraid. I told them I trusted God. They didn't understand that that did not mean I never expected anything bad to happen to my children, only that I knew that everything would be all right in the end.

I knew that by not cooperating I would very likely have my children taken away from me.

I am not afraid. I know my children are likely going to suffer. I know them and know that the people caring for them right now probably not only don't understand the nuances of their personalities, but have also likely been trained in acceptable government child care practices that will likely leave them emotionally distraught. Make no mistake that I am naively thinking that my children will not suffer because of this thing. I believe they will.

I believe that all things that are allowed to happen to my family will ultimately work together for our good.

The important thing to me is that I am not afraid. I was not afraid to stand up to the government with all its supposed power. I believe my children will be returned to me through the power of God. But if not, come what may.




OMG, this woman is certifiable. I HATE the state and the child snatchers but this woman, to prove her whacked out belief that God will take care of her kids (and if he doesn't, that's okay because it will be okay 'in the end') deliberately used them and put them in danger of CPS. She says she knows her kids will suffer and she seems to have some weirdo notion that that's a good thing - after all, the Founders "allowed their loved ones to suffer and die". Oh, and she lets us know that SHE is not afraid. Fuck the kids, they can suffer, but she's cool.

Come on. This sounds like satire it's so nutty. I know it's not but, please. Fuck this stupid bitch for playing games with the lives of little people who can't defend themselves.

The state is a monster. You don't sacrifice the innocent to it to prove some point.

[WM_in_MO]

That passive attitude is why I don't associate with most church-goers.

[jkob]

She is a horrible person who busts up families.

Because no parents neglect or abuse their children physically or sexually right?

[devil21]

Because no parents neglect or abuse their children physically or sexually right?

If that's all they were focusing on then I don't think anyone would give them any grief. That's not the case though. Since actual cases of physical and sexual abuse are rare, CPS knows they have to harass more and more people to justify their budgets or they will lose their budgets. In gov't budgeting, money is basically "use it or lose it". So they do everything possible to "use it" and then ask for more the next year. Breaking up a family where no abuse occurred is just business to them.

[mosquitobite]

If that's all they were focusing on then I don't think anyone would give them any grief. That's not the case though.

Exactly.

Not to mention that, at least in this state, they do not first go to a relative. Nope. Off to strangers so the state can make a buck!

[susano]

That passive attitude is why I don't associate with most church-goers.

A lot of believers have some seriously primitive perceptions of what the Creator of ALL THAT IS is. This is perfect example and why so many agnostics and atheists think religious people are morons.

I know God exists because of personal experience but, what ever IT is, IT doesn't protect children from stupidity and violence.

[mosquitobite]

Just to add, I believe as this woman does. I agree with her words.

I still do not agree with her actions.

Like I said, first time CPS comes knocking on my door I'm going for a LOOOONG vacation with the kiddos and lawyering up.

[angelatc]

A lot of believers have some seriously primitive perceptions of what the Creator of ALL THAT IS is. This is perfect example and why so many agnostics and atheists think religious people are morons.

I know God exists because of personal experience but, what ever IT is, IT doesn't protect children from stupidity and violence.

It's really funny that you would say that, especially in this thread.

When my husband had a stroke, and then lost his job, and our cars started breaking down, and we were losing our house - I can assure you the state and the athiests did absolutely nothing to help us. However, 3 different churches contacted us to see if we needed presents for the kids at Christmas, two of those churches offered to give us transportation to their food banks, and the third just showed up with about 10 bags of food.

Meanwhile, athiests are the most hateful, bitter and internally ugly people on the planet.

It's pretty easy to understand why this woman has more faith in her God than she has in people like you who attack her for it.

[angelatc]

Because no parents neglect or abuse their children physically or sexually right?

Like the state has ever stopped that from happening. *snort*


Children don't belong to the state. Fuck her, and the high horse she rides on.

[jkob]

Children don't belong to the state. Fuck her, and the high horse she rides on.

Children don't belong to anyone, they're individuals just like me or you. How do you think child abuse should be handled?

[devil21]

Just to add, I believe as this woman does. I agree with her words.

I still do not agree with her actions.

Like I said, first time CPS comes knocking on my door I'm going for a LOOOONG vacation with the kiddos and lawyering up.

A friend of mine did that exact thing when CPS came knocking. They are somewhat of a "hippie family" but the kids were always happy, fed, clothed, and generally in good shape. CPS just didn't like the cut of their jib for whatever reason and paid a visit to their home. Mom refused to "cooperate" with them, then took the kids out of state for a month while dad stayed behind for work. CPS quickly gave up and went looking for the next family to screw with. They ended up moving out of the state entirely not long after.

[angelatc]

Children don't belong to anyone, they're individuals just like me or you. How do you think child abuse should be handled?


Families should take care of their own. Other than that, I'm not about to give up one inch of freedom in the name of "saving and protecting the children" especially from their parents.

She went to academic land, and got a degree which enables her to walk into the homes of strangers and pass judgment over them. I have no use at all for people who think they're doing society a favor when they go to work in the morning on the government dime.

[tod evans]

Families should take care of their own. Other than that, I'm not about to give up one inch of freedom in the name of "saving and protecting the children" especially from their parents.

She went to academic land, and got a degree which enables her to walk into the homes of strangers and pass judgment over them. I have no use at all for people who think they're doing society a favor when they go to work in the morning on the government dime.

Fuck yeah!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to angelatc again.

[angelatc]

A friend of mine did that exact thing when CPS came knocking. They are somewhat of a "hippie family" but the kids were always happy, fed, clothed, and generally in good shape. CPS just didn't like the cut of their jib for whatever reason and paid a visit to their home. Mom refused to "cooperate" with them, then took the kids out of state for a month while dad stayed behind for work. CPS quickly gave up and went looking for the next family to screw with. They ended up moving out of the state entirely not long after.

You know it's sad that we had to have this talk, but my husband and I made plans for such an situation too. It involved knowing where the other would head, so no phone calls need be made right out of the gate.

And we got that advice from a friend of mine who does private practice therapy. She has patients who have to see her to comply with CPS instructions, and she says a lot of them don't even need therapy. She also sees a lot more kids who were damaged in the care of the state than kids that were damaged in the care of their parents.

[susano]

It's really funny that you would say that, especially in this thread.

When my husband had a stroke, and then lost his job, and our cars started breaking down, and we were losing our house - I can assure you the state and the athiests did absolutely nothing to help us. However, 3 different churches contacted us to see if we needed presents for the kids at Christmas, two of those churches offered to give us transportation to their food banks, and the third just showed up with about 10 bags of food.

Meanwhile, athiests are the most hateful, bitter and internally ugly people on the planet.

It's pretty easy to understand why this woman has more faith in her God than she has in people like you who attack her for it.

Did I say that church members don't do wonderful things for others and try to live up to the teachings of Christ (or whatever example/teachings they believe in)? No, I did not. I said a lot of believers have primitive notions of what God is. That is clearly evidenced by the fact that this crazy woman expects her kids to suffer but God will make it good "in the end". It's clearly evidenced by the fact enormous numbers of kids and adults die violently, every day, and God doesn't prevent it.

[mosquitobite]

Did I say that church members don't do wonderful things for others and try to live up to the teachings of Christ (or whatever example/teachings they believe in)? No, I did not. I said a lot of believers have primitive notions of what God is. That is clearly evidenced by the fact that this crazy woman expects her kids to suffer but God will make it good "in the end". It's clearly evidenced by the fact enormous numbers of kids and adults die violently, every day, and God doesn't prevent it.

Or someone could just take the biblical examples of Abraham, Job, David, Daniel, etc etc and realize that positive CAN come from evil.

I still wouldn't sacrifice my children to the altar of the state.

[moostraks]

It surprising to me, how many people I know, that have had CPS visits. These are people who are very close to me, and I know they are doing a good job parenting. When I was a kid, CPS visits only seemed to occur in extreme circumstances. Now if your kid arrives at school with a scratch, you could be facing a CPS visit depending on how your 6 year old describes how they got scratched.

If you have a home birth, and don't get your kid a birth certificate, can CPS still kidnap that child?

Yes and depending on the caseworker they will see the homebirth as medical neglect. At which point they will whisk them off for shots and medical care and you will be forced to sign their safety plan to state you will comply with any and all medical care deemed necessary by the state's social worker who claims to be advised by the hospital. All of the workers involved profit off of the system and will agree with the social workers that the assessment shows neglect. These social workers go to select individuals who perpetrate the system.

[moostraks]

Families should take care of their own. Other than that, I'm not about to give up one inch of freedom in the name of "saving and protecting the children" especially from their parents.

She went to academic land, and got a degree which enables her to walk into the homes of strangers and pass judgment over them. I have no use at all for people who think they're doing society a favor when they go to work in the morning on the government dime.

Awesome!!!!! Thank you!!!!!!

[jkob]

If that's all they were focusing on then I don't think anyone would give them any grief. That's not the case though. Since actual cases of physical and sexual abuse are rare, CPS knows they have to harass more and more people to justify their budgets or they will lose their budgets. In gov't budgeting, money is basically "use it or lose it". So they do everything possible to "use it" and then ask for more the next year. Breaking up a family where no abuse occurred is just business to them.

Unfortunately you cannot determine what allegations or suspicions of abuse are true or not without investigating them.

[moostraks]

Children don't belong to anyone, they're individuals just like me or you. How do you think child abuse should be handled?

They are in the custody of their parents. This is not acceptable to many people who think the village raises the children for societies greater good who then perpetuate such things as Social Services and the US Dept of Education. These agencies then decide what the "norm" is so that the best means may be obtained and everyone has to ask permission from people who make bonuses and profits but care not one whit for the needs of the individual they are extorting their income from.

http://www.clevelandcatholiccharities.org/cchhsmap.htm <---- One example since 1943.

[LibertyEagle]

Sounds like terrible parenting. Listen woman, you're not special nor are your kids. If there is a God, I don't think he picks and chooses who he wants to protect. If that were the case, we would never see the numerous tragic cases that happen worldwide on a daily basis. There would be far less suffering in the world if there was divine intervention for all those who think they can will it by praying and wishing real hard. The only thing a child can truly count on is YOUR protection. You're their guardian—you have to make decisions based on their best interests. Furthermore, if you're endangering the lives of your children in any way, you may not be fit to be a parent.

I don't know the full details of the story but generally speaking, children are not your property. You don't get to put them in harm's way or do as you please with them simply because they popped out of your vagina and you believe in God. Obviously there are cases where boundaries are overstepped and children are taken away when they shouldn't be, but from what's written, it sounds like she made some bad decisions.

You are opting for the state again. The state is never the best choice for the children. And you are wrong about something else. Children DO belong to their parents until they are 18. They damn sure don't belong to the government.

[mosquitobite]

Unfortunately you cannot determine what allegations or suspicions of abuse are true or not without investigating them.

You're still not understanding.

I would bet $50 that the majority of cases are drug war related.

[angelatc]

Unfortunately you cannot determine what allegations or suspicions of abuse are true or not without investigating them.

It is really none of her business. Actually, it is her business. But it's certainly should not be her concern.

[moostraks]

Unfortunately you cannot determine what allegations or suspicions of abuse are true or not without investigating them.

Ah and mandatory reporting just made it all the more important for them to investigate every idiosyncrasy. Then they come on a surprise visit and oops your house is messy (you have children surprise!) Or the fridge is empty because tomorrow is shopping day. Or you had an argument with your spouse. Or they get bit by a flea. Or a turtle cage smells messy. Yeah, the great investigation. And no, agents don't lie about situations to get the children into custody. That is just a rare event because according to you social workers try hard to keep families together. Like police brutality the evidence indicates there is a clear problem with the system.

[jkob]

Families should take care of their own. Other than that, I'm not about to give up one inch of freedom in the name of "saving and protecting the children" especially from their parents.

She went to academic land, and got a degree which enables her to walk into the homes of strangers and pass judgment over them. I have no use at all for people who think they're doing society a favor when they go to work in the morning on the government dime.

So you think parents should be able to sexually abuse their kids, okay...

[angelatc]

So you think parents should be able to sexually abuse their kids, okay...

I have news for you - she has saved exactly zero kids from being abused.

And anyway, I said no such thing. But making things up is easier than defending your position - I get that. You think kids belong to the state. Pathetic.

Our society got along just fine before we created jobs for people like her.

[Antischism]

Along my political journey thus far in life, I've come to realize that libertarians tend to have a very hard time defining parental roles and autonomy/potential autonomy in children. While autonomy, private property and everyone minding their own business/not interfering is great and works with adults, it becomes difficult to define for children who are still under the roof of adults and can't provide for themselves until a certain age. Children are not property, and the role of a parent is more of a guardian; someone to guide children in what they deem is the right direction. There are basic necessities and morals you can instill in children to help them grow and prosper, but where is the line drawn, if at all?

What constitutes as abusive behavior against a minor? Should constant emotional/verbal abuse against a child be punishable (children taken away, for example), or do people mind their own business and let the parents do what they want? What sort of punishment, if any, should be given to these parents? Who administers the punishment? Should kids be allowed to choose to leave home and never come back, with parents being considered kidnappers if they attempt to bring their child back home?

It would seem that too much power is vested in "parental rights" and kids are left with the short end of the "liberty" stick.

This is not really an argument for state control or CPS, rather an observation about how inconsistent the views have been across libertarian circles—this being an issue that is rarely discussed and has rarely been written about by libertarian thinkers. It's a definite monkey wrench in the ideology.

[susano]

The state is sheer evil AND this woman is a complete dumbass. As a result of that deadly combination, these kids are suffering, just as their mother said she expected. But, hey, it's the Lord's will, right?

pfft

[tod evans]

So you think parents should be able to sexually abuse their kids, okay...

There's one twisted fuck in this thread who calls spanking a child abuse, for all I know you and yours view potty training as sexual abuse.

Government agents are not suitable or appropriate people to deal with ANY family matters.

CPS, welfare and the like needs to be defunded just as quickly as all the other alphabet agencies that ruin far more lives than they've ever helped.

[angelatc]

The state is sheer evil AND this woman is a complete dumbass. As a result of that deadly combination, these kids are suffering, just as their mother said she expected. But, hey, it's the Lord's will, right?

pfft

Who are you to determine God's will?

[angelatc]

Along my political journey thus far in life, I've come to realize that libertarians tend to have a very hard time defining parental roles and autonomy/potential autonomy in children. While autonomy, private property and everyone minding their own business/not interfering is great and works with adults, it becomes difficult to define for children who are still under the roof of adults and can't provide for themselves until a certain age. Children are not property, and the role of a parent is more of a guardian; someone to guide children in what they deem is the right direction. There are basic necessities and morals you can instill in children to help them grow and prosper, but where is the line drawn, if at all?

What constitutes as abusive behavior against a minor? Should constant emotional/verbal abuse against a child be punishable (children taken away, for example), or do people mind their own business and let the parents do what they want? What sort of punishment, if any, should be given to these parents? Who administers the punishment? Should kids be allowed to choose to leave home and never come back, with parents being considered kidnappers if they attempt to bring their child back home?

It would seem that too much power is vested in "parental rights" and kids are left with the short end of the "liberty" stick.

This is not really an argument for state control or CPS, rather an observation about how inconsistent the views have been across libertarian circles—this being an issue that is rarely discussed and has rarely been written about by libertarian thinkers. It's a definite monkey wrench in the ideology.



Blah blah blah. It's always pretty easy to tell who doesn't have kids in these threads.

[Antischism]

There's one twisted fuck in this thread who calls spanking a child abuse, for all I know you and yours view potty training as sexual abuse.

Government agents are not suitable or appropriate people to deal with ANY family matters.

CPS, welfare and the like needs to be defunded just as quickly as all the other alphabet agencies that ruin far more lives than they've ever helped.

Does spanking violate the NAP (non-aggression principle)?

[susano]

Along my political journey thus far in life, I've come to realize that libertarians tend to have a very hard time defining parental roles and autonomy/potential autonomy in children. While autonomy, private property and everyone minding their own business/not interfering is great and works with adults, it becomes difficult to define for children who are still under the roof of adults and can't provide for themselves until a certain age. Children are not property, and the role of a parent is more of a guardian; someone to guide children in what they deem is the right direction. There are basic necessities and morals you can instill in children to help them grow and prosper, but where is the line drawn, if at all?

What constitutes as abusive behavior against a minor? Should constant emotional/verbal abuse against a child be punishable (children taken away, for example), or do people mind their own business and let the parents do what they want? What sort of punishment, if any, should be given to these parents? Who administers the punishment? Should kids be allowed to choose to leave home and never come back, with parents being considered kidnappers if they attempt to bring their child back home?

It would seem that too much power is vested in "parental rights" and kids are left with the short end of the "liberty" stick.

This is not really an argument for state control or CPS, rather an observation about how inconsistent the views have been across libertarian circles—this being an issue that is rarely discussed and has rarely been written about by libertarian thinkers. It's a definite monkey wrench in the ideology.

This is an important point you've made. I believe that CPH, family courts, and all of these busy body agencies that interfere in families should be abolished. In order to do that, there has to be a viable plan for to address cases of abuse when they arise. Lots of kids are horribly abused, by parents and the state. What to do? We can get rid of the state but what about parental abuse? I'd like to know how the Indian tribes handled it, if it even occurred in their societies.

[angelatc]

Does spanking violate the NAP (non-aggression principle)?

The non-aggression principle is a roadmap to domination.

[devil21]

Does spanking violate the NAP (non-aggression principle)?

You'd have to define what you mean by non-aggression principle. You bring up a good topic for discussion but it probably deserves it's own thread.

[Reason]

Sounds like terrible parenting. Listen woman, you're not special nor are your kids. If there is a God, I don't think he picks and chooses who he wants to protect. If that were the case, we would never see the numerous tragic cases that happen worldwide on a daily basis. There would be far less suffering in the world if there was divine intervention for all those who think they can will it by praying and wishing real hard. The only thing a child can truly count on is YOUR protection. You're their guardian—you have to make decisions based on their best interests. Furthermore, if you're endangering the lives of your children in any way, you may not be fit to be a parent.

I don't know the full details of the story but generally speaking, children are not your property. You don't get to put them in harm's way or do as you please with them simply because they popped out of your vagina and you believe in God. Obviously there are cases where boundaries are overstepped and children are taken away when they shouldn't be, but from what's written, it sounds like she made some bad decisions.

This.

[Reason]

The non-aggression principle is a roadmap to domination.

......................?

[tod evans]

Does spanking violate the NAP (non-aggression principle)?

Who cares?

[susano]

Who are you to determine God's will?


I see you're just trying be argumentative. Obviously you KNOW it was the mother who said if they suffer that God will make it okay in the end.

What's your problem with me? I'm on your side about the state.

[angelatc]

This is an important point you've made. I believe that CPH, family courts, and all of these busy body agencies that interfere in families should be abolished. In order to do that, there has to be a viable plan for to address cases of abuse when they arise. Lots of kids are horribly abused, by parents and the state. What to do? We can get rid of the state but what about parental abuse? I'd like to know how the Indian tribes handled it, if it even occurred in their societies.
What's with the "we" stuff? I'm pretty sure I'd handle it my way - I'd not know about it because I tend to mind my own business. Our statist friend would likely advise getting "expert" authortarian people involved, while I suspect Tod would have a different, efficient way of handling things that would not resemble the NAP in the slightest.

[angelatc]

I see you're just trying be argumentative. Obviously you KNOW it was the mother who said if they suffer that God will make it okay in the end.

What's your problem with me? I'm on your side about the state.

You're the one attacking a victim for her faith.

[angelatc]

......................?

Eat some more soy, little boygirl.

[Pericles]

This religious nutjob endangered her children's lives. The oldest is only 9.

How the hell is that not a crime? to have your 9 year old babysit so many children?

I almost never agree with CPS, but this is one of those cases.


Children should be monitored at all times. The "go play outside" approach is what created most of our problems. Historically, parents were much more involved in their children's lives, and we need to have that again.

As a child, you should have spent more of your time playing in the street.

[tod evans]

What's with the "we" stuff? I'm pretty sure I'd handle it my way - I'd not know about it because I tend to mind my own business. Our statist friend would likely advise getting "expert" authortarian people involved, while I suspect Tod would have a different, efficient way of handling things that would not resemble the NAP in the slightest.

I blew chow!

[LibertyEagle]

This is an important point you've made. I believe that CPH, family courts, and all of these busy body agencies that interfere in families should be abolished. In order to do that, there has to be a viable plan for to address cases of abuse when they arise. Lots of kids are horribly abused, by parents and the state. What to do? We can get rid of the state but what about parental abuse? I'd like to know how the Indian tribes handled it, if it even occurred in their societies.


Along my political journey thus far in life, I've come to realize that libertarians tend to have a very hard time defining parental roles and autonomy/potential autonomy in children. While autonomy, private property and everyone minding their own business/not interfering is great and works with adults, it becomes difficult to define for children who are still under the roof of adults and can't provide for themselves until a certain age. Children are not property, and the role of a parent is more of a guardian; someone to guide children in what they deem is the right direction. There are basic necessities and morals you can instill in children to help them grow and prosper, but where is the line drawn, if at all?

What constitutes as abusive behavior against a minor? Should constant emotional/verbal abuse against a child be punishable (children taken away, for example), or do people mind their own business and let the parents do what they want? What sort of punishment, if any, should be given to these parents? Who administers the punishment? Should kids be allowed to choose to leave home and never come back, with parents being considered kidnappers if they attempt to bring their child back home?

It would seem that too much power is vested in "parental rights" and kids are left with the short end of the "liberty" stick.

This is not really an argument for state control or CPS, rather an observation about how inconsistent the views have been across libertarian circles—this being an issue that is rarely discussed and has rarely been written about by libertarian thinkers. It's a definite monkey wrench in the ideology.

I know you are going to hate this answer, but this is why the church is so important. It's not fail-safe no, because nothing is, but families involved with their local churches receive help from a number of other families, should they need it and amazingly they do it without stealing the children or tasing anyone either.

Morality is rarely changed through laws.


The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage. -- Ron Paul

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2003/12/ron-paul/the-war-on-religion/

[69360]

A friend of mine did that exact thing when CPS came knocking. They are somewhat of a "hippie family" but the kids were always happy, fed, clothed, and generally in good shape. CPS just didn't like the cut of their jib for whatever reason and paid a visit to their home. Mom refused to "cooperate" with them, then took the kids out of state for a month while dad stayed behind for work. CPS quickly gave up and went looking for the next family to screw with. They ended up moving out of the state entirely not long after.

That is the best possible way to handle it.


It's really funny that you would say that, especially in this thread.

When my husband had a stroke, and then lost his job, and our cars started breaking down, and we were losing our house - I can assure you the state and the athiests did absolutely nothing to help us. However, 3 different churches contacted us to see if we needed presents for the kids at Christmas, two of those churches offered to give us transportation to their food banks, and the third just showed up with about 10 bags of food.

Meanwhile, athiests are the most hateful, bitter and internally ugly people on the planet.

It's pretty easy to understand why this woman has more faith in her God than she has in people like you who attack her for it.

I agree, 99% of the atheists I have encountered fit that description.

[susano]

What's with the "we" stuff? I'm pretty sure I'd handle it my way - I'd not know about it because I tend to mind my own business. Our statist friend would likely advise getting "expert" authortarian people involved, while I suspect Tod would have a different, efficient way of handling things that would not resemble the NAP in the slightest.

By "we" I meant those who oppose state violence and want CPS and associated thugs gone. Is that type of "we" okay with you?

When you say, "I'm pretty sure I'd handle it my way - I'd not know about it because I tend to mind my own business", are you saying that children are undeserving of protection in cases of criminal acts? I completely understand your hatred of government - I feel the same way - but the fact that kids are the victims of horrific family violence doesn't go away because hate government. Do you think that anything should be done in those cases of violence against kids?

[jkob]

I have news for you - she has saved exactly zero kids from being abused.

And anyway, I said no such thing. But making things up is easier than defending your position - I get that. You think kids belong to the state. Pathetic.

Our society got along just fine before we created jobs for people like her.

What are you saying then? It's nonsensical and no one with a shred of sanity could take it seriously.

[angelatc]

By "we" I meant those who oppose state violence and want CPS and associated thugs gone. Is that type of "we" okay with you?

When you say, "I'm pretty sure I'd handle it my way - I'd not know about it because I tend to mind my own business", are you saying that children are undeserving of protection in cases of criminal acts? I completely understand your hatred of government - I feel the same way - but the fact that kids are the victims of horrific family violence doesn't go away because hate government. Do you think that anything should be done in those cases of violence against kids?

I am saying I wouldn't know about it because I firmly believe in the "mind your own business" principle.

[angelatc]

What are you saying then? It's nonsensical and no one with a shred of sanity could take it seriously.


Really? You're here singing the praises of a tax-sucking self-righteous busybody who, by your own admission, rarely finds anything wrong in the families she investigates.

But I'm the insane because I think government should leave people the hell alone.

[Pericles]

Because no parents neglect or abuse their children physically or sexually right?

When that happens, and the parents are charged with a crime and convicted, thus in prison, then you have a reason for CPS to be involved. Until a crime has been committed, hands off, or it will be your life is the operative principle.

[susano]

You're the one attacking a victim for her faith.

No, I criticized her for her stupidity. FFS, did you read a thing she said?

[jkob]

When that happens, and the parents are charged with a crime and convicted, thus in prison, then you have a reason for CPS to be involved. Until a crime has been committed, hands off, or it will be your life is the operative principle.

That doesn't even make any sense. How do you think those crimes are uncovered in the first place?

[susano]

I agree, 99% of the atheists I have encountered fit that description.


I agree with that, as well.

[angelatc]

No, I criticized her for her stupidity. FFS, did you read a thing she said?

Criticizing the victim is the attack. What you call stupidity, I call faith.

[mosquitobite]

That doesn't even make any sense. How do you think those crimes are uncovered in the first place?

The same way the police do it.

Oh that's right... With indefinite detaining and asset forfeiture without due process! Murica! Ef yeah!

[Pericles]

That doesn't even make any sense. How do you think those crimes are uncovered in the first place?

How does you relative find out about such cases of actual abuse before they occur? So much for "protecting" the kids, the damage has already been done.

[angelatc]

That doesn't even make any sense. How do you think those crimes are uncovered in the first place?

It makes a lot more sense than you do. Social workers don't instigate their own investigations.

What he was saying was that if the parents were jailed, and no other family or friends could care for the kids, then and only then should the state get involved in caring for them.

The core difference here is that I believe that while no system is perfect, liberty does the least harm. You, on the other hand, seemingly can't stand the thought of other people not being supervised by some omnipresent authority.

[susano]

I am saying I wouldn't know about it because I firmly believe in the "mind your own business" principle.

I do, too, but there are instances where people do become of aware of crimes against children. In those cases, I think the other poster is correct that this is an area where those of us who are anti-state haven't come with many ideas. I'm saying I have answers, because I don't. I know that viable alternatives need to be thought of in order to get rid of CPS and family courts, though.

Seriously, Angela, what do you think should be done if someone batters or sexually molests a toddler and someone outside the family finds out?

[jkob]

Really? You're here singing the praises of a tax-sucking self-righteous busybody who, by your own admission, rarely finds anything wrong in the families she investigates.

But I'm the insane because I think government should leave people the hell alone.

That's the nature of the job, you can't determine what cases are true ahead of time.

[angelatc]

I do, too, but there are instances where people do become of aware of crimes against children. In those cases, I think the other poster is correct that this is an area where those of us who are anti-state haven't come with many ideas. I'm saying I have answers, because I don't. I know that viable alternatives need to be thought of in order to get rid of CPS and family courts, though.

Seriously, Angela, what do you think should be done if someone batters or sexually molests a toddler and someone outside the family finds out?

Here's the deal - it isn't my business.

I am indeed that hardcore when it comes to freedom. This "protect the children" bullshit irritates me to no end.

[RockEnds]

Okay, well, now I understand how cps gets away with their antics.

To the OP, just make sure your online friend understands that the game changes once the children are removed. The state is now the active parent. Think damage control. Get a lawyer. Get the kids home. Then worry about political and religious convictions. JMHO.

[angelatc]

That's the nature of the job, you can't determine what cases are true ahead of time.

So guilty until proven innocent.

[RockEnds]

Personally, I find government involvement in the family falls more under non-interventionalist philosophy than the non-aggression principle.


Here's the deal - it isn't my business.

Exactly.

CPS involvement isn't pretty. It isn't fair, and it does nothing to guarantee the child will not become the victim of abuse. In fact, it may increase the likelihood.

[mosquitobite]

I do, too, but there are instances where people do become of aware of crimes against children. In those cases, I think the other poster is correct that this is an area where those of us who are anti-state haven't come with many ideas. I'm saying I have answers, because I don't. I know that viable alternatives need to be thought of in order to get rid of CPS and family courts, though.

Seriously, Angela, what do you think should be done if someone batters or sexually molests a toddler and someone outside the family finds out?

First off, they should have the right to face their accuser (which they don't with CPS...the lead is completely anonymous). Secondly, the child should go to a family member in 99% of the cases while the case is investigated...by the judicial system who are trained as detectives, not some social worker. File a restraining order against the accused and make the guardians equally responsible for any future abuse. (I.E. if grandma has the child and allows access and the child is abused, grandma also gets prison time if the accused is found guilty.)

Why does CPS need the guilty until proven innocent freedom? Why are we willing to throw out the Constitution for the sake of the children?

We are asking the wrong questions, I think. When a child is abused does it PERSONALLY affect you? Do you weep all night long for the children stuck in the sex trade in Asia?

[susano]

Criticizing the victim is the attack. What you call stupidity, I call faith.

She embraced suffering using some example about the Founders allowing their family members to suffer and die. I have no idea WTF she's talking about, do you? Then she goes on about "In God We Trust", which has nothing to do with the Founders or liberty or the Creator. She sent a fucking BABY off with the other kids on an "adventure", leaving it up to God to protect them and if something bad happened, it would be okay "in the end". I'm sure as hell not saying anyone had the right to take those kids but she's a dumbass. Why can't you admit that? Is it because you hate the state that you feel the need to defend her? Is it because she's religious and you feel the need to defend that? I'm trying to understand. I also defend people's right to believe whatever they want. I just can't defend some tard who thinks it's God's will that her kids get snatched and suffer.

[Pericles]

She embraced suffering using some example about the Founders allowing their family members to suffer and die. I have no idea WTF she's talking about, do you? Then she goes on about "In God We Trust", which has nothing to do with the Founders or liberty or the Creator. She sent a fucking BABY off with the other kids on an "adventure", leaving it up to God to protect them and if something bad happened, it would be okay "in the end". I'm sure as hell not saying anyone had the right to take those kids but she's a dumbass. Why can't you admit that? Is it because you hate the state that you feel the need to defend her? Is it because she's religious and you feel the need to defend that? I'm trying to understand. I also defend people's right to believe whatever they want. I just can't defend some tard who thinks it's God's will that her kids get snatched and suffer.
Placing people under a great deal of stress or trying to explain highly unusual circumstances causes some people to seek an external explanation for events - either religion or some highly improbable conspiracy theory will work for them. it explains the unexplainable.

[susano]

Eat some more soy, little boygirl.

I think she just called you a ***, Reason.


lol

[susano]

Here's the deal - it isn't my business.

I am indeed that hardcore when it comes to freedom. This "protect the children" bullshit irritates me to no end.


It irritates me, too, because I know what the game is and that is to destroy the family and make the state God Almighty. That said, we have deal reality. Kids do get abused. You may never know of such a case but other people might and my question is, what then?

Many years ago (around 1980) I managed an apartment complex. One of the residents came to me and told me that another resident had horribly beaten their two year old. I saw the child and she was solid black and blue from the middle of her back to her knees. I called the police. They sent some social service agency over and the child remained at home. Maybe back in those days they weren't snatching kids like they do now. I can't recall if the father was arrested. Too long ago. Anyway, I did involve the state by calling the cops. Do you think I shouldn't have?

[susano]

First off, they should have the right to face their accuser (which they don't with CPS...the lead is completely anonymous). Secondly, the child should go to a family member in 99% of the cases while the case is investigated...by the judicial system who are trained as detectives, not some social worker. File a restraining order against the accused and make the guardians equally responsible for any future abuse. (I.E. if grandma has the child and allows access and the child is abused, grandma also gets prison time if the accused is found guilty.)

Why does CPS need the guilty until proven innocent freedom? Why are we willing to throw out the Constitution for the sake of the children?

We are asking the wrong questions, I think. When a child is abused does it PERSONALLY affect you? Do you weep all night long for the children stuck in the sex trade in Asia?

Look, asshole, I didn't defend CPS or social workers. I asked what should be done in cases of abuse.

No, I don't "weep all night long" for children in the sex trade. I've read extensively about it, though, and as a human being I care and I know that those crimes need to be dealt with but it's outside of my ability to do anything. That said, sex trafficking isn't the subject here.

[susano]

Okay, well, now I understand how cps gets away with their antics.

To the OP, just make sure your online friend understands that the game changes once the children are removed. The state is now the active parent. Think damage control. Get a lawyer. Get the kids home. Then worry about political and religious convictions. JMHO.

^^THIS

CPS gets federal dollars for fast tracking stolen kids into adoption.

[mosquitobite]

Look, asshole, I didn't defend CPS or social workers. I asked what should be done in cases of abuse.

No, I don't "weep all night long" for children in the sex trade. I've read extensively about it, though, and as a human being I care and I know that those crimes need to be dealt with but it's outside of my ability to do anything. That said, sex trafficking isn't the subject here.

And I'm pretty sure I answered what I thought is the appropriate response and without the name calling, even. Not sure why you interpreted it the way you did, but whatever.

The point with the sex trade is that there are children all around the world being abused both physically and sexually, right this moment, while we type. Should we throw away our liberties to protect them? Is that even possible?

Once abuse has happened it is a crime. Treat it as such and let the accused be innocent until proven guilty. That is not currently what happens.

[fr33]

What are you saying then? It's nonsensical and no one with a shred of sanity could take it seriously.

Add me to the insane list.

You people defending CPS are statists through and through. From the cradle to the grave you expect to be pampered and guaranteed everything. It's no wonder that this country is producing a bunch of whiny helpless little brats who'd starve to death if they didn't have others to depend on.

[RockEnds]

^^THIS

CPS gets federal dollars for fast tracking stolen kids into adoption.

Yeah, but that's easier said than done. This individual wasn't accused of beating her child black and blue. She let her kids take a walk. There is a certain amount of shock that accompanies doing nothing extraordinary being immediately followed by your children being taken into state custody. CPS will do a fine job of pointing fingers and assigning blame. She needs someone to help her think through this.

[susano]

And I'm pretty sure I answered what I thought is the appropriate response and without the name calling, even. Not sure why you interpreted it the way you did, but whatever.

The point with the sex trade is that there are children all around the world being abused both physically and sexually, right this moment, while we type. Should we throw away our liberties to protect them? Is that even possible?

Once abuse has happened it is a crime. Treat it as such and let the accused be innocent until proven guilty. That is not currently what happens.

It was your snarky remark about if I wept all night for sex trafficked kids and if it effects me personally - both of which have the obvious answers of no.

Yes, at least you proposed some ideas and I applaud that. All of the principals and philosophies in the world will not get rid of this criminal CPS system so we DO need alternative ideas. We live in a society of sheeple, mall rats and liberals and they need to be convinced another way is possible.

[susano]

Yeah, but that's easier said than done. This individual wasn't accused of beating her child black and blue. She let her kids take a walk. There is a certain amount of shock that accompanies doing nothing extraordinary being immediately followed by your children being taken into state custody. CPS will do a fine job of pointing fingers and assigning blame. She needs someone to help her think through this.

I've read some real horror stories of kids who were not abused being quickly adopted out by the CPS child traffickers. I always assume the worst. You are right that she needs someone to help her and it needs be to be fast.

[catfeathers]

OK all of you who hate CPS, unless you are able to abolish the department there will be people in these jobs whether you like it or not. I am currently studying social work and thinking of applying to CPS.

I am not the best at housekeeping and I don't expect others to have spotless homes. I have raised children, I know they get dirty and play and get bruises. I believe in giving children a little freedom depending on their abilities.

My oldest son was investigated by CPS in a different county. The woman who came to his house said his house was filthy and even took exception to his microwave being on the counter where his daughter might pull it off on her head.

Now, given that the government is going to hire somebody to fill an open spot in CPS, which one of us would you want to investigate a complaint against you?

[presence]

OK all of you who hate CPS, unless you are able to abolish the department there will be people in these jobs whether you like it or not. I am currently studying social work and thinking of applying to CPS.

I am not the best at housekeeping and I don't expect others to have spotless homes. I have raised children, I know they get dirty and play and get bruises. I believe in giving children a little freedom depending on their abilities.

My oldest son was investigated by CPS in a different county. The woman who came to his house said his house was filthy and even took exception to his microwave being on the counter where his daughter might pull it off on her head.

Now, given that the government is going to hire somebody to fill an open spot in CPS, which one of us would you want to investigate a complaint against you?



Without googling, do you know what year the phrase "in the best interest of the child" was coined?



hint

"im besten interesse des kindes"

[susano]

Without googling, do you know what year the phrase "in the best interest of the child" was coined?

1913?

[susano]

OK all of you who hate CPS, unless you are able to abolish the department there will be people in these jobs whether you like it or not. I am currently studying social work and thinking of applying to CPS.

I am not the best at housekeeping and I don't expect others to have spotless homes. I have raised children, I know they get dirty and play and get bruises. I believe in giving children a little freedom depending on their abilities.

My oldest son was investigated by CPS in a different county. The woman who came to his house said his house was filthy and even took exception to his microwave being on the counter where his daughter might pull it off on her head.

Now, given that the government is going to hire somebody to fill an open spot in CPS, which one of us would you want to investigate a complaint against you?

If you're a Ron Paul supporter, constitutionalist or libertarian, then you, of course. Not that CPS should even exist, mind you.

Why do you want to get into it?

[presence]

1913?


Initially set up in Germany in 1935, Lebensborn expanded into several occupied European countries with Germanic population (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples) during the Second World War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World_War). It included the selection (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection) of "racially worthy" orphans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphan) for adoption and the birth of children from aryan love interests of SS-members.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Breeding_Camps

And so was born the phrase,

"in the best interest of the child"

[jkob]

I talked to my relative and she said that 80% of investigations are closed unsubstantiated, 10% services are given, and 10% result in removal(half of which probably result in permanent removal) Of those children removed about 70% are for neglect with the remaining 30% being physical and sexual abuse. Physical abuse is the least common since you have to really wail on your kid for CPS to pay attention, they do not care if you spank your kids. Sexual abuse almost always results in removal. About 75% result investigations involves drugs or alcohol in some fashion and the drugs are because of regulations by the federal government. They do not remove children just because their parents use drugs unless it effects their parenting. They remove children that are born with drugs or alcohol in their systems due to federal regulations. They do not like removing kids since a)they're not sociopaths b)it's a lot of work c)in Arizona there are about 5,000 more kids in 'the system' than budgeted for. With children that are removed about 75% are placed with family with the remaining going to actual foster care, they always try to keep the child with in the family if possible. These are just rough estimates by her but I thought some of you guys might be interested.

[presence]

I talked to my relative and she said that 80% of investigations are closed unsubstantiated, 10% services are given, and 10% result in removal


Amongst those 80% closed, unsubstantiated...





How often are guilty until proven innocent parents without gun rights?
How often are guilty until proven innocent parents subject to random drug testing?
How often must guilty until proven innocent parents give up the "privilege" to drink alcohol for more than a year?
How often are guilty until proven innocent parents out more than $1000+ in legal expenses and counselling before CPS is out of their life?
How often do guilty until proven innocent parents get away with less than 6 court appearances?
How often are guilty until proven innocent parents out another $1000+ in upgrade expenses to get their house to "code" so they can keep their kids?
How many guilty until proven innocent home inspections from armed state agents will forcefully enter their home?

Freedom!

[tangent4ronpaul]

If you ever sign a "safety plan", you are effectively signing your parental rights over to the state and will soon loose your children.

Do not talk to these people! If they show up, tell them to get a warrant. It's rare for them to have the probable cause for a judge to sign off on one.

CPSWatch at least used to have a bunch of good tutorials. I think they still have them in the Yahoo file area:

http://www.cpswatchlegalteam.com/
https://www.facebook.com/CPSWatch
(above site has tons of stories of abuse, molestation and many fatalities of children after being placed in foster care by CPS)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CPSWatch/
http://protectingourchildrenfrombeingsold.wordpress.com/2010/01/10/children-being-taken-from-parents-state-finds-innocent-cps-watch-reports/
(lots of tutorial material in above link)
http://profane-justice.org/profane-justice.org/
http://profanejustice.blogspot.com/

Good luck to your friend...

-t

[catfeathers]

If you're a Ron Paul supporter, constitutionalist or libertarian, then you, of course. Not that CPS should even exist, mind you.

Why do you want to get into it?

Well for one thing, I need a job and one that pays enough to live on is hard to find here, my husband has been having trouble finding one that's more than part time and I don't really want to relocate. There is a program that would pay for me to finish school if I work for the state for 2 years after graduation.

Secondly, I would rather fill that position than let it go to an overzealous person that would remove a child from their home unnecessarily. I know it causes a lot of damage to a child to be removed from their family and it should be avoided, if possible.

I may not decide to follow that route, I would like to find a job that would let me help children that are aging out of foster care get started on their own. I would like to possibly do that as a foster parent if my husband can find a better job so that I can focus more of my time on helping the child or children. Our youngest child will be moving out in a year or two and I don't think we're ready to have an empty nest just yet so maybe we could help some children that need a home.

[jkob]

Amongst those 80% closed, unsubstantiated...





How often are guilty until proven innocent parents without gun rights?
How often are guilty until proven innocent parents subject to random drug testing?
How often must guilty until proven innocent parents give up the "privilege" to drink alcohol for more than a year?
How often are guilty until proven innocent parents out more than $1000+ in legal expenses and counselling before CPS is out of their life?
How often do guilty until proven innocent parents get away with less than 6 court appearances?
How often are guilty until proven innocent parents out another $1000+ in upgrade expenses to get their house to "code" so they can keep their kids?
How many guilty until proven innocent home inspections from armed state agents will forcefully enter their home?

Freedom!

She said that the extent of their CPS's involvement with those 80% closed unsubstantiated usually is just a 'global screening' for abuse basically which she said basically mean they just interview all parties involved about all forms of abuse. No one's gun rights are taken away, there are no legal costs or court appearances, there is no bringing your house up to code or anything like that for cases found to be totally unsubstantiated.

[susano]

I talked to my relative and she said that 80% of investigations are closed unsubstantiated, 10% services are given, and 10% result in removal(half of which probably result in permanent removal) Of those children removed about 70% are for neglect with the remaining 30% being physical and sexual abuse. Physical abuse is the least common since you have to really wail on your kid for CPS to pay attention, they do not care if you spank your kids. Sexual abuse almost always results in removal. About 75% result investigations involves drugs or alcohol in some fashion and the drugs are because of regulations by the federal government. They do not remove children just because their parents use drugs unless it effects their parenting. They remove children that are born with drugs or alcohol in their systems due to federal regulations. They do not like removing kids since a)they're not sociopaths b)it's a lot of work c)in Arizona there are about 5,000 more kids in 'the system' than budgeted for. With children that are removed about 75% are placed with family with the remaining going to actual foster care, they always try to keep the child with in the family if possible. These are just rough estimates by her but I thought some of you guys might be interested.

Who knows if these figures are true. They may be in Arizona. Maybe not. Every place is different, though, and there are shitloads of cases where children have been taken out of nothing but spite and power tripping, where kids were in no danger whatsoever. There are also shitloads of cases where parental rights were quick to be terminated and the kids adopted out. That is the fast track program put in place under Clinton.

Do some real looking yourself. There is plenty to be found on search engines and there Youtubes from people who have been the victims of this evil system.

Did you miss the case of the young couple who had their newborn snatched from the hospital just because the father had posted at Oath Keepers? Had it not been for the ensuing shitstorm, and Rhodes being an attorney, they probably never would have gotten their child back.


Anyway, the freedom movement needs to come up with a plan that would end this state sanctioned kidnapping operation.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Follow the links in post 161 and you will find some very different statistics.

This is state sponsored kidnapping and child trafficking. Nothing more.

-t

[VoluntaryAmerican]

Religious Fanatic.


sorry but she could have avoided that so easily.. when it comes to kids and you know the government will take them, you do NOT risk the kid's wellbeing over making a point.. this is fucking bullshit. I am all for standing up to the state but she knew what she was doing and still did it?? still allowed the fucking psychopaths from CPS to take her children?!?! those kids could be raped and killed and she wants to make a point??????!!!!

YOU DO NOT DO THAT TO KIDS!!!!! she knew they would suffer??? this is fucking being a terrible parent and nothing more.



sorry but this one I will not agree with.. I wont defend the state either but holy shit..



you protect kids by ALL MEANS. dying for your child should not even be a thought so lettting this happen does not make one bit of sense to me.. when I think about just what I would do for my own children this story leaves me confused and sick for what that mother did..

summed it up... still sucks she lost her kids.

[presence]

Anyway, the freedom movement needs to come up with a plan that would end this state sanctioned kidnapping operation.

molon labe?

[susano]

Well for one thing, I need a job and one that pays enough to live on is hard to find here, my husband has been having trouble finding one that's more than part time and I don't really want to relocate. There is a program that would pay for me to finish school if I work for the state for 2 years after graduation.

Secondly, I would rather fill that position than let it go to an overzealous person that would remove a child from their home unnecessarily. I know it causes a lot of damage to a child to be removed from their family and it should be avoided, if possible.

I may not decide to follow that route, I would like to find a job that would let me help children that are aging out of foster care get started on their own. I would like to possibly do that as a foster parent if my husband can find a better job so that I can focus more of my time on helping the child or children. Our youngest child will be moving out in a year or two and I don't think we're ready to have an empty nest just yet so maybe we could help some children that need a home.

Kids who have been put in the system need all the friends they can get and I think it's great that you care enough to want to help.

I'm curious what you think is ever a good reason to put a child in state custody (foster care).

[jkob]

Who knows if these figures are true. They may be in Arizona. Maybe not. Every place is different, though, and there are shitloads of cases where children have been taken out of nothing but spite and power tripping, where kids were in no danger whatsoever. There are also shitloads of cases where parental rights were quick to be terminated and the kids adopted out. That is the fast track program put in place under Clinton.

Do some real looking yourself. There is plenty to be found on search engines and there Youtubes from people who have been the victims of this evil system.

Did you miss the case of the young couple who had their newborn snatched from the hospital just because the father had posted at Oath Keepers? Had it not been for the ensuing shitstorm, and Rhodes being an attorney, they probably never would have gotten their child back.


Anyway, the freedom movement needs to come up with a plan that would end this state sanctioned kidnapping operation.

Those are just rough estimates on her part for what she deals with specifically as CPS investigator in Arizona. FWIW, she has told me in the past that at least her office is pretty conservative and are pretty big on guns(they like to go to the shooting range during their lunch) but that may just be an Arizona thing. She does say that investigators are more politically conservative compared to the rest of the field in general and likened it to law enforcement.

[susano]

molon labe?

That means come and take it?

Doesn't sound like that would be a viable solution.

Entrenched systems need to be unwound because the sheeple think they're necessary and won't throw them out without being shown why they need to and what alternative will "keep kids safe" (hate the expression, but it's reality).

[susano]

Those are just rough estimates on her part for what she deals with specifically as CPS investigator in Arizona. FWIW, she has told me in the past that at least her office is pretty conservative and are pretty big on guns(they like to go to the shooting range during their lunch) but that may just be an Arizona thing. She does say that investigators are more politically conservative compared to the rest of the field in general and likened it law enforcement.

I think some places are worse than others. Tennessee is a bad place for CPS extreme abuses. California, too. I guess Georgia is, too, because that's where the state senator and her husband were murdered over her exposing CPS and family court.

[catfeathers]

I'm curious what you think is ever a good reason to put a child in state custody (foster care).

Well, I would say if there is no interested family member that can keep the child safe in the case of substantiated abuse or severe neglect (not feeding them, being so drugged up or drunk that you can't take care of them, etc.) then the best place would probably be with a foster home.

[susano]

Well, I would say if there is no interested family member that can keep the child safe in the case of substantiated abuse or severe neglect (not feeding them, being so drugged up or drunk that you can't take care of them, etc.) then the best place would probably be with a foster home.

Thanks for answering. That's the type of situation that I mean the freedom movement needs to address. Nobody wants to see kids taken from home and yet there are kids who have no home if their abusers are arrested or jailed.

[jkob]

I think some places are worse than others. Tennessee is a bad place for CPS extreme abuses. California, too. I guess Georgia is, too, because that's where the state senator and her husband were murdered over her exposing CPS and family court.

I don't see any possible way CPS could orchestrate a murder, cops sure but CPS no. As said before, most of the abuse in CPS(which I don't deny) happens on an individual level. Not all offices are created equal either unfortunately.

[Danke]

I don't see any possible way CPS could orchestrate a murder, cops sure but CPS no. As said before, most of the abuse in CPS(which I don't deny) happens on an individual level. Not all offices are created equal either unfortunately.

Google "cps child trafficking" and report back.

[susano]

I don't see any possible way CPS could orchestrate a murder, cops sure but CPS no. As said before, most of the abuse in CPS(which I don't deny) happens on an individual level. Not all offices are created equal either unfortunately.

It isn't known who was involved in the murder. Just that her exposing the network was the obvious cause. Another Georgia senator is a good suspect, though. People involved with CPS are as capable of murder or hiring hit men as as anyone else. Don't be naive. CPS and family court are not benign entities.

Here's woman who was murdered:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkt5zeYQ7-A

[Origanalist]

Sounds like terrible parenting. Listen woman, you're not special nor are your kids. If there is a God, I don't think he picks and chooses who he wants to protect. If that were the case, we would never see the numerous tragic cases that happen worldwide on a daily basis. There would be far less suffering in the world if there was divine intervention for all those who think they can will it by praying and wishing real hard. The only thing a child can truly count on is YOUR protection. You're their guardian—you have to make decisions based on their best interests. Furthermore, if you're endangering the lives of your children in any way, you may not be fit to be a parent.

I don't know the full details of the story but generally speaking, children are not your property. You don't get to put them in harm's way or do as you please with them simply because they popped out of your vagina and you believe in God. Obviously there are cases where boundaries are overstepped and children are taken away when they shouldn't be, but from what's written, it sounds like she made some bad decisions.

Nice, straight from New York City. By the way that rep was a mistake.

[jkob]

Google "cps child trafficking" and report back.

I just did. I don't find this conspiracy to be very credible, sorry.

[Origanalist]

OK all of you who hate CPS, unless you are able to abolish the department there will be people in these jobs whether you like it or not. I am currently studying social work and thinking of applying to CPS.

I am not the best at housekeeping and I don't expect others to have spotless homes. I have raised children, I know they get dirty and play and get bruises. I believe in giving children a little freedom depending on their abilities.

My oldest son was investigated by CPS in a different county. The woman who came to his house said his house was filthy and even took exception to his microwave being on the counter where his daughter might pull it off on her head.

Now, given that the government is going to hire somebody to fill an open spot in CPS, which one of us would you want to investigate a complaint against you?

Neither. Leave me alone.

[Pericles]

Thanks for answering. That's the type of situation that I mean the freedom movement needs to address. Nobody wants to see kids taken from home and yet there are kids who have no home if their abusers are arrested or jailed.

In the days before CPS, churches and organizations such as the Mason ran orphanages. CPS has put them out of business. Can't speak for everywhere, but if you talk to the people who were raised in either the TX Home and School or the Methodist home - you will have a difficult time to find someone who considered the experience to be a bad one. It certainly beats placing kids with foster parents who are also getting paid for another dozen kids ...

http://www.texascooppower.com/texas-stories/history/the-mighty-mites

[jkob]

It isn't known who was involved in the murder. Just that her exposing the network was the obvious cause. Another Georgia senator is a good suspect, though. People involved with CPS are as capable of murder or hiring hit men as as anyone else. Don't be naive. CPS and family court are not benign entities.

Here's woman who was murdered:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkt5zeYQ7-A

Someone acting on an individual level that may of been involved in illegal activity sure but that's no different anybody. The 'official story' is that she was murdered by her husband who then killed himself.

BTW, the relative of mine is strictly an investigator. She has nothing to do with ongoing, in her office that is a completely different unit.

[bolil]

It would be one thing if a kid decided, for himself, that he did not want to live with his parents anymore. The next option should be grandparents then siblings then uncles and aunts. CPS is a disgusting organization that TELLS kids what they need, frequently with tragic results. Google CPS child trafficking indeed. Also, those state homes they put kids in during the interim, group homes, well they can force them to take psychotropic medication since the state then becomes their guardians. Cat, there are plenty of other ways to put a social degree to work than working for the devil.

Basically, the OP's friends had her children kidnapped and I am saddened that crime is being defended here.

[susano]

I just did. I don't find this conspiracy to be very credible, sorry.


IOW you're too lazy to be arsed.

Good to know.

[Danke]

Someone acting on an individual level that may of been involved in illegal activity sure but that's no different anybody. The 'official story' is that she was murdered by her husband who then killed himself.

BTW, the relative of mine is strictly an investigator. She has nothing to do with ongoing, in her office that is a completely different unit.

Ya, just following orders.

I heard that before.

[susano]

In the days before CPS, churches and organizations such as the Mason ran orphanages. CPS has put them out of business. Can't speak for everywhere, but if you talk to the people who were raised in either the TX Home and School or the Methodist home - you will have a difficult time to find someone who considered the experience to be a bad one. It certainly beats placing kids with foster parents who are also getting paid for another dozen kids ...

http://www.texascooppower.com/texas-stories/history/the-mighty-mites


There may have been some decent orphanages but I would have to see first hand accounts from those who were in them. I have read and watched video accounts of survivors of others and they were not good. Catholic were the worst with places like Boystown supplying kids for politically connected perverts and psychopaths, as in the Franklin case. Others supplied kids for medical experiments (and New York state was doing that just a few years ago). I don't mean to be contrary but it just seems like those who are in the business of helping kids are usually attracted because they're predators. Masons, as in Freemasons is also something that sends up red flags. In the UK they are up to their eyeballs in pedophile scandals involving the whole damn establishment. There's no more oversight in the private sector than there is in the public. I don't know what the answer is but there must be one out there.

[susano]

Someone acting on an individual level that may of been involved in illegal activity sure but that's no different anybody. The 'official story' is that she was murdered by her husband who then killed himself.



No, she was talking about systemic corruption in the institutions, not one off cases of a few individuals.

She and her husband were murdered and it was ruled suicide, immediately, just like the DC madame and a hundred other poor souls who ran up against organized crime.

[susano]

It would be one thing if a kid decided, for himself, that he did not want to live with his parents anymore. The next option should be grandparents then siblings then uncles and aunts. CPS is a disgusting organization that TELLS kids what they need, frequently with tragic results. Google CPS child trafficking indeed. Also, those state homes they put kids in during the interim, group homes, well they can force them to take psychotropic medication since the state then becomes their guardians. Cat, there are plenty of other ways to put a social degree to work than working for the devil.

Basically, the OP's friends had her children kidnapped and I am saddened that crime is being defended here.


Where did anyone defend it? It may have sparked a conversation about CPS but I didn't see anyone defend taking her kids. Maybe I missed it.

[bolil]

Defending the company is defending what it does. I say company, because people are making money doing it.

Read from page one, "this lady had it coming," et al.

[susano]

Defending the company is defending what it does. I say company, because people are making money doing it.

Read from page one, "this lady had it coming," et al.


I've read from page one. I called her a dumbass but sure don't support the kids being taken. I think that was the sentiment from others who thought she was irresponsible. She put her kids at risk (of CPS) and she knew what she was doing.

[bolil]

I've read from page one. I called her a dumbass but sure don't support the kids being taken. I think that was the sentiment from others who thought she was irresponsible. She put her kids at risk (of CPS) and she knew what she was doing.

She didn't put her kids at risk, though the very existence of sanctioned kidnappers did.

[susano]

She didn't put her kids at risk, though the very existence of sanctioned kidnappers did.

I agree about the state sanctioned kidnappers but I disagree that she didn't put them in the line of fire.

[bolil]

I agree about the state sanctioned kidnappers but I disagree that she didn't put them in the line of fire.

By birthing them into a world where such a force's culpability is ignored in favor of blaming the victim, yes she did.

[susano]

By birthing them into a world where such a force's culpability is ignored in favor of blaming the victim, yes she did.

Aside from sending a baby (24 months old) off on an "adventure" which I think falls into the realm of personal responsibility as a parent, she said this:

I knew that by not cooperating I would very likely have my children taken away from me.


I want to reiterate that I hate CPS and think the entire system should be abolished. However, I would do anything to make sure those fuckers didn't take my kids and that's where I feel she has a lot of culpability. They needed her to protect them and she chose not to do whatever it took. Now those poor kids are in their clutches and getting them back will be MUCH, MUCH harder and maybe won't happen at all.

You are right, though. It's CPS who is the villain.

[bolil]

Aside from sending a baby (24 months old) off on an "adventure" which I think falls into the realm of personal responsibility as a parent, she said this:

I knew that by not cooperating I would very likely have my children taken away from me.


I want to reiterate that I hate CPS and think the entire system should be abolished. However, I would do anything to make sure those fuckers didn't take my kids and that's where I feel she has a lot of culpability. They needed her to protect them and she chose not to do whatever it took. Now those poor kids are in their clutches and getting them back will be MUCH, MUCH harder and maybe won't happen at all.

You are right, though. It's CPS who is the villain.

I see what you are saying but that toddler was with older siblings, so so much for that. You would comply and hope they don't take your kids anyways, which is not a guarantee. Oh no, some kids went for a walk about and when the return journey seemed to far they called their mom to pick them up. She was on her way too, only thing that made this situation go sour was a busy body concerned enough to call the cops on some kids but not approach them itself (yes, the person that called if a person actually called is an it).

You say she is a dumbass, that is your opinion and one I do not share, and that her stupidity cost her her kids. I say that I do not judge her and kidnappers cost her her kids.

[better-dead-than-fed]

There is a certain level of personal discretion when it comes to CPS investigations and with that comes the potential for overstepping boundaries or abuse.

Yet you defend the non-transparency which invites CPS to abuse its power:

Why Child Protective Services Needs Transparency Now (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?424276-Why-Child-Protective-Services-Needs-Transparency-Now&p=5174920&viewfull=1#post5174920)


It can happen and has, I won't deny that but that's on an individual level.

The secrecy is not a result of individual power-abuses; it is a result of policy.


This conspiracy idea that they take children from loving caring homes to get more federal money is ludicrous

What seems "ludicrous" to you is actually quite evident:

Psychiatrist Steals People's Babies, Raising "Concerns Regarding His Fitness To Practice" (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?424245-Psychiatrist-Steals-People-s-Babies-Raising-quot-Concerns-Regarding-His-Fitness-To-Practice-quot)


my relative... said that... Of those children removed about 70% are for neglect with the remaining 30% being physical and sexual abuse.

You infer all your opinions about CPS from your experiences with your one relative? How are we supposed to know how reasonable your relative's opinion is?

[kcchiefs6465]

They do not remove children just because their parents use drugs
A grandma was denied adoption of her grandson because she hair follicle tested positive for marijuana.

Yes, they do.

[susano]

I see what you are saying but that toddler was with older siblings, so so much for that. You would comply and hope they don't take your kids anyways, which is not a guarantee. Oh no, some kids went for a walk about and when the return journey seemed to far they called their mom to pick them up. She was on her way too, only thing that made this situation go sour was a busy body concerned enough to call the cops on some kids but not approach them itself (yes, the person that called if a person actually called is an it).

You say she is a dumbass, that is your opinion and one I do not share, and that her stupidity cost her her kids. I say that I do not judge her and kidnappers cost her her kids.

And I see what you're saying. We'll just have to agree to disagree about her personal responsibility.

I hope the kids are returned ASAP.

[susano]

Yet you defend the non-transparency which invites CPS to abuse its power:

Why Child Protective Services Needs Transparency Now (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?424276-Why-Child-Protective-Services-Needs-Transparency-Now&p=5174920&viewfull=1#post5174920)



The secrecy is not a result of individual power-abuses; it is a result of policy.



What seems "ludicrous" to you is actually quite evident:

Psychiatrist Steals People's Babies, Raising "Concerns Regarding His Fitness To Practice" (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?424245-Psychiatrist-Steals-People-s-Babies-Raising-quot-Concerns-Regarding-His-Fitness-To-Practice-quot)



You infer all your opinions about CPS from your experiences with your one relative? How are we supposed to know how reasonable your relative's opinion is?

jkob doesn't seem to really be interested in the truth. I posted a video with a state senator detailing her own investigation into this criminal racket and he blew it off.

[angelatc]

It irritates me, too, because I know what the game is and that is to destroy the family and make the state God Almighty. That said, we have deal reality. Kids do get abused. You may never know of such a case but other people might and my question is, what then?
?

Reality is that other people's kids are none of my business. I don't have any exceptions to that. You do. Congratulations.

[angelatc]

She embraced suffering using some example about the Founders allowing their family members to suffer and die. I have no idea WTF she's talking about, do you?.

Just because you are aggressive about not knowing what she is talking about doesn't make her retarded. It only celebrates ignorance. You're in too deep to change your mind, but for those reading along at home:

http://www.aspecialdayguide.com/yorktown/foundingfathers.htm

All the men who signed the constitution were guilty of treason against the King. I guess they were bad parents, for not putting the King's opinion of their children's welfare ahead of their own.


Lewis Morris of New York, for example, must have known when he signed the Declaration that he was signing away his fortune. Within weeks, the British ravaged his estate, destroyed his vast woodlands, butchered his cattle, and sent his family fleeing for their lives.


Another New Yorker, William Floyd, was also forced to flee when the British plundered his property. He and his family lived as refugees for seven years without income. The strain told on his wife; she died two years before the war ended.


Carter Braxton of Virginia, an aristocratic planter who had invested heavily in shipping, saw most of his vessels captured by the British navy. His estates were largely ruined, and by the end of his life he was a pauper.

The home of William Ellery, a Rhode Island delegate, was burned to the ground during the occupation of Newport.


Thomas Heyward Jr., Edward Rutledge, and Arthur Middleton, three members of the South Carolina delegation, all suffered the destruction or vandalizing of their homes at the hands of enemy troops. All three were captured when Charleston fell in 1780, and spent a year in a British prison.


"Our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."


Thomas Nelson Jr. of Virginia raised $2 million for the patriots' cause on his own personal credit. The government never reimbursed him, and repaying the loans wiped out his entire estate. During the battle of Yorktown, his house, which had been seized by the British, was occupied by General Cornwallis. Nelson quietly urged the gunners to fire on his own home. They did so, destroying it. He was never again a man of wealth. He died bankrupt and was buried in an unmarked grave.


Richard Stockton, a judge on New Jersey's supreme court, was betrayed by loyalist neighbors. He was dragged from his bed and thrown in prison, where he was brutally beaten and starved. His lands were devastated, his horses stolen, his library burnt. He was freed in 1777, but his health had so deteriorated that he died within five years. His family lived on charity for the rest of their lives.


In the British assault on New York, Francis Lewis's home and property were pillaged. His wife was captured and imprisoned; so harshly was she treated that she died soon after her release. Lewis spent the remainder of his days in relative poverty.


And then there was John Hart. The speaker of the New Jersey Assembly, he was forced to flee in the winter of 1776, at the age of 65, from his dying wife's bedside. While he hid in forests and caves, his home was demolished, his fields and mill laid waste, and his 13 children put to flight. When it was finally safe for him to return, he found his wife dead, his children missing, and his property decimated. He never saw any of his family again and died, a shattered man, in 1779.





Several others had sons that died fighting the war. Obviously life would have been much easier for these men if they had just quietly submitted to their overlords.

They were patriots for refusing to submit to tyranny and made their statement by signing a paper. She made a statement by refusing to sign one.

[Origanalist]

Just because you are aggressive about not knowing what she is talking about doesn't make her retarded. It only celebrates ignorance. You're in too deep to change your mind, but for those reading along at home:

http://www.aspecialdayguide.com/yorktown/foundingfathers.htm

All the men who signed the constitution were guilty of treason against the King. I guess they were bad parents, for not putting the King's opinion of their children's welfare ahead of their own.


Several others had sons that died fighting the war. Obviously life would have been much easier for these men if they had just quietly submitted to their overlords.

They were patriots for refusing to submit to tyranny and made their statement by signing a paper. She made a statement by refusing to sign one.

All these bad parenting comments are gag inducing.

[angelatc]

OK all of you who hate CPS, unless you are able to abolish the department there will be people in these jobs whether you like it or not. I am currently studying social work and thinking of applying to CPS.

I am not the best at housekeeping and I don't expect others to have spotless homes. I have raised children, I know they get dirty and play and get bruises. I believe in giving children a little freedom depending on their abilities.

My oldest son was investigated by CPS in a different county. The woman who came to his house said his house was filthy and even took exception to his microwave being on the counter where his daughter might pull it off on her head.

Now, given that the government is going to hire somebody to fill an open spot in CPS, which one of us would you want to investigate a complaint against you?

Seriously, like I said before....I have no use for people who go to work on the government dime, thinking they're somehow doing the world a favor.

[TonySutton]

Why do we never hear of people getting a lawyer to be present when dealing with CPS? I think that should be the very first thing. CPS is coming over, sure hold on so my attorney can get here before anyone in my family talks to them!

[angelatc]

All these bad parenting comments are gag inducing.

When we went to Germany, the kindergartners walked home alone, let themselves in, and entertained themselves for 4 hours until their parents got home. In America, our kids now stay on our health insurance until they're 26 years old.

The people here who can't imagine allowing younger siblings to tend to the older ones are sadly the future. Their children will be arguing that having cameras in the home is necessary to make sure kids aren't being abused.

[Original_Intent]

The family is going to be in court this morning to hear what is going to be happening going forward. The mother has been given every kind of advice from roll over and do anything they say, to standing firm.

To all of the comments, I don't feel it is my place to judge her parenting - certainly getting in the face of CPS when she even states she knew what the consequences would be - think of it what you will, I don't think many would have gone that route, but the entire root of the problem was the state feeling obliged to get involved because she let her kids go for a walk and they went farther than she expected. This is something that no one had any business getting involved in other than to perhaps ask the kids if they were lost, or back in the day when police were actually there to serve and protect getting a policeman to be sure they were okay.

At any rate, whatever you think, prayers would be appreciated for a good outcome in court this morning. For non believers, send out positive energy or whatever it is you do. And for those who think she is getting what she deserved - well, you are the enemy as far as I am concerned.

[Original_Intent]

When we went to Germany, the kindergartners walked home alone, let themselves in, and entertained themselves for 4 hours until their parents got home. In America, our kids now stay on our health insurance until they're 26 years old.

The people here who can't imagine allowing younger siblings to tend to the older ones are sadly the future. Their children will be arguing that having cameras in the home is necessary to make sure kids aren't being abused.

I believe the mother in this case is foreign born - she obviously fell for the "land of the free" line.

[angelatc]

I believe the mother in this case is foreign born - she obviously fell for the "land of the free" line.

Is she? That would explain a lot, not that cultural differences are a concept that will make anybody change their minds. Yes, my German friend lived here for a while - that's how I met her. She was aghast at how little freedom we had.

[RockEnds]

The family is going to be in court this morning to hear what is going to be happening going forward. The mother has been given every kind of advice from roll over and do anything they say, to standing firm.

To all of the comments, I don't feel it is my place to judge her parenting - certainly getting in the face of CPS when she even states she knew what the consequences would be - think of it what you will, I don't think many would have gone that route, but the entire root of the problem was the state feeling obliged to get involved because she let her kids go for a walk and they went farther than she expected. This is something that no one had any business getting involved in other than to perhaps ask the kids if they were lost, or back in the day when police were actually there to serve and protect getting a policeman to be sure they were okay.

At any rate, whatever you think, prayers would be appreciated for a good outcome in court this morning. For non believers, send out positive energy or whatever it is you do. And for those who think she is getting what she deserved - well, you are the enemy as far as I am concerned.

I hope after the children's interrogations, cps got bored and will decide to send them home today. Children that age are so difficult to predict. When my boys were little, I remember being called in to their school because one of them had mentioned he was deprived of supper the night before. In reality, he asked for lasagna. I didn't have time, so they ate hamburgers and macaroni and cheese. Fortunately for me, the talk was just with his school, and I was "allowed" to personally ask my son to describe his idea of supper and what he ate instead. Things ended there. Little minds are sometimes quick to complain when things don't go just their way, and cps specializes in the ways of making a mountain out of a molehill.

I hope everything goes well.

Oh and, at nearly 30 years of age, the kid still complains when I don't make lasagne.

[Original_Intent]

So here is what went down today.

First off, the case almost got dismissed by the judge. None of the things that she did warranted the kids being taken. HOWEVER,

When CPS came to their home the first time, they brought a mental health expert. The mental health expert said she was disturbed by how CALM the mother stayed during the ordeal. (and if she had been hysterical she would have been labeled unstable I am sure.) So based on that alone (nothing else) the judge says she must sign a safety plan, and she will have her kids back tomorrow.

The main condition in the safety plan is that she needs to have another adult with her when she is with the kids. Husband is OK I think, when he isn't there someone else needs to be there. Not great, but at this point probably a good outcome. Better than I expected for sure.

[Origanalist]

So here is what went down today.

First off, the case almost got dismissed by the judge. None of the things that she did warranted the kids being taken. HOWEVER,

When CPS came to their home the first time, they brought a mental health expert. The mental health expert said she was disturbed by how CALM the mother stayed during the ordeal. (and if she had been hysterical she would have been labeled unstable I am sure.) So based on that alone (nothing else) the judge says she must sign a safety plan, and she will have her kids back tomorrow.

The main condition in the safety plan is that she needs to have another adult with her when she is with the kids. Husband is OK I think, when he isn't there someone else needs to be there. Not great, but at this point probably a good outcome. Better than I expected for sure.

Ya, WELL FUCK THAT. So because she stayed calm :eek:, she has to sign a "safety plan". I hope she calmly tells the judge he's getting hysterical over the fact she can control herself.

[fr33]

So here is what went down today.

First off, the case almost got dismissed by the judge. None of the things that she did warranted the kids being taken. HOWEVER,

When CPS came to their home the first time, they brought a mental health expert. The mental health expert said she was disturbed by how CALM the mother stayed during the ordeal. (and if she had been hysterical she would have been labeled unstable I am sure.) So based on that alone (nothing else) the judge says she must sign a safety plan, and she will have her kids back tomorrow.

The main condition in the safety plan is that she needs to have another adult with her when she is with the kids. Husband is OK I think, when he isn't there someone else needs to be there. Not great, but at this point probably a good outcome. Better than I expected for sure.

That is so outrageous.

[mosquitobite]

So here is what went down today.

First off, the case almost got dismissed by the judge. None of the things that she did warranted the kids being taken. HOWEVER,

When CPS came to their home the first time, they brought a mental health expert. The mental health expert said she was disturbed by how CALM the mother stayed during the ordeal. (and if she had been hysterical she would have been labeled unstable I am sure.) So based on that alone (nothing else) the judge says she must sign a safety plan, and she will have her kids back tomorrow.

The main condition in the safety plan is that she needs to have another adult with her when she is with the kids. Husband is OK I think, when he isn't there someone else needs to be there. Not great, but at this point probably a good outcome. Better than I expected for sure.

Good grief. So her faith helps keep her calm and that's now a mental disorder??

Basically they are telling her she is only allowed supervised visits with her kids. :rolleyes:

[bolil]

Yeah, and Ill bet they recommend the trifling Shrink to her.

So if she is around her kids alone, what happens then? How can they prove it? Do they plan on putting her on a visit list?

[fr33]

This is how they break us down. They criminalize the most basic things and remove our own humanity. The State says that a mother needs a chaperone to take care of her kids.

I wish nothing but bad things upon the judge and the other agents of the state involved in this.

[susano]

I'm glad to hear the kids will be coming home. In some places, they wouldn't be. Now the family is essentially under the thumb of CPS, they have to kiss ass and do what they're told or those kids will get taken again. There's probably no time limit on it, either, so if they tried to move they'd probably get arrested. The only choice now is to follow orders and get off their damn plan as soon as possible and THEN move. They're quasi prisoners now.

[tangent4ronpaul]

That is so outrageous.

DON'T DO IT! - She's about to loose her kids.
They always do this - "you can have your kids back if you sign over your parental rights" That's what a safety plan is. Fight it instead!


Dealing With CPS: The Danger In CPS 'Safety Plans'
The Child Protective Services agent or social worker may ask you to sign a "safety plan" or voluntarily agree to home visitation. Be careful if asked to do this.
http://deltabravo.net/cms/plugins/content/content.php?content.175

A CPS worker may "offer" (demand) this as a means of either keeping your children now or having them placed back home on a trial basis. The purpose of these programs is to gather enough evidence (real or imagined) to build a case to take your children. Remember, states only get federal money when they put your children in foster care, not when they leave them with you under a home visitation program.

These plans often require parents to agree not to use corporal punishment or other legal methods of child rearing. For a family that has been using corporal punishment to suddenly stop creates frustration and confusion and increases the likelihood that the parent will react out of anger. It also sends a message to the child that he doesn’t need to obey his parents to avoid a spanking because a state agent will come out and tell them they can’t spank him. If the original report had to do with problems with the child’s behavior and the parent’s use of discipline; this safety plan would create chaos.

Another tactic is to impose restrictions that are outside the parent’s control, such as requiring that a child do well medically even though the child has a diagnosed condition that would prevent this. The child’s illness leaves a high probability that he will be sick, thus the parents have no control over compliance with the safety plan and are simply counting the days until their child is removed.

In one such case, the child was diagnosed with a brittle bone disease and had even fractured while in foster care. The parents were asked to sign a safety plan which required the child not to have another fracture. The chances that he would re-fracture were very high and totally outside the parents control.

In another case, a child had a weight disorder and had gained an additional five pounds during a short foster care stay. The parents were asked to sign a safety plan which required the child to lose weight. The parents had been taking their child to doctors for years to no avail. Even foster care couldn’t make the child lose weight. How then could the parents be expected to control their child’s weight when the doctors and the state had failed?

In yet another case, the parents of a child with a seizure disorder were asked to sign a safety plan which required their child not to have seizures.

Sometimes the plan is simply to have the child’s grades improve, yet this is still outside the parents control. The parents can do everything in their power to facilitate good grades, but it’s ultimately up to the child to perform.

All of these plans will fail and the child will end up in state custody. The fact that the parents have "failed" one plan gives the state grounds not to offer another plan. Thus, they will move for permanency (termination and adoption).

Safety plans are intentionally vague and therefore impossible to follow. The plan might read, "parent's will maintain a home appropriate for children". This is a subjective standard- you may think you home is excellent for children, but the CPS worker or agent might think that because you don't have safety plugs in your electrical outlets, the home isn't "appropriate". And they may get away with claims like this.

For desperate parents, the plan might seem like an easy way to get your child home or keep him home. In the long run, however, signing a safety plan could cost you your child permanently.

Bottom line - If you're not guilty of abuse or neglect, don't tolerate an unwarranted government assault and don't "settle" by agreeing to services you don't need. If the agency believes you are guilty of abuse or neglect, make them prove it in court.

=====

Fighting the CPS Safety Plan, tips that could save your family
http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/fighting-the-cps-safety-plan-tips-that-could-save-your-family

After being sharply criticized in federal court for its practice of removing children on scant evidence, we thought Texas CPS would adopt a more measured approach when responding to child abuse allegations. In the years since the Gates decision and the implementation of new CPS policies, removals under Chapter 262 are down.

But, does this mean Texas CPS is less aggressive in their investigations? The answer is an emphatic “no.”

Talk to a CPS Attorney before you sign Anything

Rather than going through the legal system, CPS figured out how to go around it.

In other words, Texas CPS and their lawyers figured out how to avoid the burdens of due process and judicial review. Now, Texas CPS workers have been trained to extract "voluntary" child placements from frightened and intimidated families. Once the children are removed and the family disrupted, CPS alone decides if, or when, a family should be reunited.

The facts are only as CPS believes them to be. The services to be completed are those CPS chooses. The timeframe is set by CPS without the oversight of a court.

You can Fight False Allegations of Child Abuse

At Schreier and Housewirth, our lawyers hear about CPS investigations every day: the untested allegations; the overt intimidation; the rushed and confused signing of a Safety Plan that fractures a family. Parents always ask us, "We're not in court, so what can your CPS attorneys do to help us?"

FIND A CPS Attorney with the Experience you need

Not every divorce or custody lawyers knows how to deal with CPS and their tactics. These recommendations are based on our 20 plus years of helping families through the most difficult of times. s. We,

Obtain information regarding the referral history on the family;
Clarify the facts;
Test the validity of CPS assumptions and conclusions formed during the abuse investigation;
Discuss the family services suggested by CPS test whether those services are calculated to reduce perceived risk to the children in the home;
Reunify the family as quickly as possible while continuing to address perceived risk factors;
Clarify a date upon which CPS involvement the life of your family will terminate.

By holding CPS accountable for their assumptions and recommendations, a good CPS attorney can keep families from being dominated by CPS during their child abuse investigation, fight false charges of child abuse, and accelerate family reunification.
=======

TX: ‘Voluntary’ Safety Plans Allow CPS to Circumvent Due Process
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/2012/06/12/tx-voluntary-safety-plans-allow-cps-to-circumvent-due-process/

In Texas, Child Protective Services has begun using “voluntary safety plans” to avoid parents’ constitutional rights. In fact, the practice has exploded with almost 12,000 of the safety plans being signed last year. Read about it here (Houston Chronicle, 5/28/12).

I wrote recently about the dramatic expansion of state power into family life that child welfare agencies embody. These “voluntary” plans are the latest innovation in that process.

In 2008, the United States Fifth Circuit Court hammered Texas CPS for its practice of removing children from parents without a court order. That was done when CPS decided that a child was at risk and that it was an emergency to have him/her removed from the dangerous situation. Far to the north in Detroit, that’s exactly what happened to Maryanne Godboldo when the child welfare agency snatched her 13-year-old daughter. The agency decided that Godboldo’s refusal to give the girl the psychotropic medication Risperdal created an emergency that risked her well-being. That dispensed with the need to inform Godboldo of the legal proceedings against her.

Back in Houston, last year District Judge Michael Schneider got so angry with a CPS caseworker and her supervisor about taking a child without a court hearing, that he ordered the two to write essays proving that they understood the constitutional implications of CPS power.

Apparently the Fifth Circuit isn’t any more impressed with CPS than Schneider is. The article tells us that the court in 2008 instructed CPS to start abiding by the law of the land.

Though ruling against the family, the 5th Circuit criticized CPS for removing the children without a court order and warned that it expected the agency to “abide by these constitutional rules and seek to involve the state courts as early in the process as is practicable.”

So, if you’re a powerful state agency that’s just been slapped by a federal appeals court and told to “involve the state courts as early in the process as possible,” what do you do? The opposite, that’s what. After all, that’s what “voluntary safety plans” are all about. Following hard on the heels of the 5th Circuit decision, CPS sent a memorandum to all its investigators encouraging them to seek parental acquiescence to the “voluntary safety plans” that unsurprisingly involve taking their kids into foster care. In other words, CPS could have done what the federal court wanted it to do – go to court for an order when it wanted to take a child from its parents. That would have honored due process, but, as is so typical of state power, CPS opted to cut the court out of the process. It did so by getting the parents’ consent to take their children from them. As long as the veil of “voluntary consent” is in place, no court need be involved, and of course, no evidence produced of the need to take the kids into care.

It’s the same reason the police ask you if it’s OK with you if they search your automobile, house, etc. If you agree – and many people are too intimidated not to – there’s no need for probable cause.

Now, if the consent is truly voluntary, then no one can argue with that way of doing things, but when CPS is involved, consent is likely anything but.

Now, “not a week goes by” that [Houston Attorney Chris] Branson says he isn’t contacted by parents who feel they’ve been bullied into surrendering their children to a “voluntary” plan under threat they will lose their children permanently through court intervention. Most were warned by CPS not to consult a lawyer, he says.

“CPS doesn’t like it when lawyers are involved,” Branson said. As a result, “there’s an important step in due process they (CPS) tend to skip.” Branson says. After all, “voluntary” plans don’t have to be reviewed by a judge.

CPS likes these “voluntary” plans so much its gotten parental signatures on almost 12,000 of them just in the last year alone. The article gives two recent examples of CPS’s strong-arm tactics in securing those “voluntary” signatures.

In one, Dad was at work and Mom had put the two children down for an afternoon nap. She caught a few winks of her own, during which her toddler managed to get out of the house and drown in a nearby pond. Rather than investigate to find out if the parents truly posed a danger to their remaining child and prove their case to a judge, CPS used the parents’ anguish and grief at the loss of their child and the threat of permanent loss of the other to get them to sign one of those “voluntary” safety plans.

In the second, Mom brought her three-day-old child to the pediatrician. In the parking lot of the doctor’s office, a woman shoved a pistol in her face, shot and killed her and made off with the newborn. To CPS, apparently, that signified something dangerous about the father, who wasn’t even present. When he appeared to recover his child (the mother’s killer was apprehended hours after her crime), CPS started grilling him. For what reason, I can’t imagine, but in the process he admitted to a drug charge seven years ago. Based on that, CPS demanded a drug test that revealed the presence of pot and a painkiller in his system. It then demanded that he sign a “voluntary” safety plan or risk losing his child.

Needless to say, in the second case, no sane judge would have allowed either the drug test or the taking of the child. In fact, in both cases, the parents contacted attorneys who put a stop to CPS’s shenanigans and returned the children to them.

But few parents have the money to contact attorneys, a fact well known to CPS. Those without access to legal advice find themselves over a barrel. CPS intimidates them with the potential permanent loss of their children, and so they agree to the “voluntary” safety plan which at least is temporary.

The lesson is clear: when ordered by a federal court to abide by the Constitution, CPS did the opposite. Instead, it circumvented it. It did so because states agencies jealously defend their power. In the case of CPS, that power is exercised at the expense of parents and, often as not, in violation of the law.
=======

When a Child Safety Plan = Coercion
http://www.childlaw.us/2005/03/when-a-child-safety-plan-coerc.html

The recent trend in child protective services (CPS) of creating safety plans received a set back recently in federal court. Judge Rebecca R. Pallmeyer of the United States District Court, Northern District of Illinois ruled that in-home safety plans created by the Illinois Department of Children and Families (DCFS) were illegal because they were secured in a coercive manner.

The coercion at issue was the CPS worker's express or implied threat of to take the child into protective custody lasting more than a brief or temporary period of time. The court also ruled that DCFS failure to provide a mechanism to review safety plans once they were put in place violated due process. The court declared that not all child safety plans trigger constitutional issues and gave DCFS 60 days to create constitutionally adequate procedures consistent with the opinion.

The ruling seems to indicate that DCFS can create an acceptable review process that does not require families to hire legal counsel. The issue of coercion is tricky. While it is possible to use non-coercive language, the imposition of safety plans in which parents agree or the child is removed has features not unlike the old consent dockets of juvenile courts which were also ruled unconstitutional.

If the agency judges a child to be in imminent danger of serious harm--general statutory language for justifying removal of a child--acceptance of a reasonable in-home safety plan may be the family's only alternative to placement. If the family does not consent to the plan (assuming the plan is reasonable and justified by the safety assessment) there is a seemingly inevitable coercive reality that without acceptance of the plan, the agency will need to take protective custody in order to ensure the safety of a child.

The issue in this decision is that a family's acceptance of a safety plan must be made only after a full understanding of these realties and the lawful alternatives. Under our constitutional system, state intervention in family life, including the threat of removing a child, is limited. According to this court, due process protections are required to balance the rights of families and the state's compelling interest in a child's welfare.
--------
comments:


n Southeastern Ohio, CPS agencies regularly use child safety plans as a form of coercion or as a way of bootstrapping children into agency custody where a situation may not be serious enough to warrant immediate court involvement.

One county in particular uses a 30 day 'safety plan' and on day 28, the agency turns around and files for emergency custody claiming that the child is already in agency care due to parental unsuitability. This same agency will then contrive to keep the child in care for the next twelve months and then will file for termination of parental rights. This has happened a number of times, particularly when a newborn or very young child is involved.

As a rule of thumb, I advise clients not to sign any safety plan that involves placing a child into custody. I would rather force the agency to seek custody through the court and be able to litigate against such actions ab initio, as opposed to having to deal with a ton of social work doublespeak and red tape.

Patrick Howard
-----------
In Illinois the dcfs workers will tell people that if they do not sign these safety plans that they will lose their kids. DCFS workers have threatened parents and denied visits when the parents go against them.
I tell parents do not sign them if the case worker wants them signed the have the judge order it. there is fine print on these plans that state if they are not followed the parents rights can and will be terminated
-----------
safety plans are changed at a moments notice without regard to who is caring for the child at the time, no proper notice is given to the person caring for the child at the time and discrimination seems to be the cause for a lot of heartaches
-----------
etc

see the links I posted earlier in this thread...

what state is she in, anyway?

-t

[susano]

I think she's in Utah, t.

[tangent4ronpaul]

the judge says she must sign a safety plan, and she will have her kids back tomorrow.

The main condition in the safety plan is that she needs to have another adult with her when she is with the kids. Husband is OK I think, when he isn't there someone else needs to be there. Not great, but at this point probably a good outcome. Better than I expected for sure.

It's not a good outcome. If she signs, she will most likely have her kids back briefly and then will loose them permanently. Once they have abducted one, they will be back for the rest as the parents were previously found "unfit".

Try to get to her before she signs anything and strongly urge her not to sign anything till she's pursued further research and found a good CPS lawyer.

-t

[susano]

t, they took all five kids.

[tangent4ronpaul]

"How To Fight CPS"
Step by Step
http://familyrights.us/how_to/step-by-step.html

#1 No matter what stage your "case" is in, the Number One (#1) thing YOU MUST DO-

Document, Document, Document

This costs nothing and is the MOST IMPORTANT thing you can do in your defense.

CPS agents "make mistakes", LIE, and TWIST your words. Don't let them get away with it- DOCUMENT IT.

Keep detailed records of who said what, when. Keep copies of EVERYTHING you send to them or receive from them.

ESPECIALLY document face-to-face and conversations on the phone. Record or video tape if you have it.

Washington State Extended Families has a nice essay on how to do Documentation.
Linda Downs at Iowa Family Rights also has some great advice to Document all Interactions

This is a war fought with PAPER, paper FILED ON THE RECORD in court.

Insist on LETTERS to and from the agencies.

They can't alter their words printed on paper that have been mailed to you. Nor can they alter your words either. KEEP COPIES of your letters to them.

#2 SIGN NOTHING, AGREE TO NOTHING

If you are innocent or falsely accused, Do NOT agree to anything a CPS agent says. ABSOLUTELY do NOT sign anything a CPS agent shoves under your nose until you talk it over with your LAWYER or a trusted friend who has some legal savvy.

Anything they FORCE you to sign, you can add "Under Duress" before your signature if you don't agree with it.

If you already have agreed or signed something that you felt coercion to do, upon advice from your lawyer or knowledgeable friend, you can RESCIND your previous agreement or signature. Be forewarned- this will really, REALLY piss off the CPS witch and she WILL undertake to punish you every way possible. But she probably planned on "doing their worst", hurting you every way possible, eventually. When I was going through this, I figured we might just as well go straight to WAR and leave out the phony negotiations and manipulations phase. I won.


About the "Service" or "Safety Plan"

#3 SHUT UP--- SHUT UP--- SHUT UP!

Quit talking with the CPS monsters. You are waiving your FIFTH AMENDMENT CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT and Miranda Rights every time you answer a question.

"The claim and exercise of a Constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." -- Miller v. U.S. Source: 230 F 2d 486, 489
Personal and phone conversations are where "mistakes" (inventions and fabrications) happen when THEY write their report about the conversations. Words you say float up into the rafters and come back twisted against you. If you feel you have to talk with them, record it or videotape it. You can then transcribe it into your DOCUMENT.

A Practical Guide to Taping Phone Calls and In-Person Conversations in the 50 States and D.C.
CPS is NOT your friend!

Women especially fall into this trap. Especially in cases where a child is ALLEGEDLY abused or molested by a family member.
DO NOT pour your heart out to a CPS worker or CPS contractor Mental Illness clinician.

Do that, and you will join the ranks of "co-perpetrator" lamenting "I was so, so foolish. I was an IDIOT. I thought they were there to HELP me. I thought the CPS worker CARED. I thought I had PROFESSIONAL CONFIDENTIALITY with the psych shithead."

CPS will use every word you say to make your child a Legal Orphan, because THAT'S what they are being PAID for.
Ignore or forget this at your and your children's EXTREME PERIL.
"Communists are to be ready to cheat, lie, perjure and do everything possible to gain their ends." -Vladimir Lenin

BE POLITE! The highest crime you can commit is "Contempt of Social Worker".
We have reports of POLICEMEN telling people that the Constitutional Rights and Miranda Rights are only for TV, and what they are doing is "The Real World".
See The Oath of Office

EVERY OATH of OFFICE in the USA includes "support the Constitution"

Since many of them seem like childish morons, SOCIOPATHIC, and plainly nasty with no discernable social "skills", this can be a difficult task.

"I would love to answer your question, but I cannot do that without violating my Fifth Amendment Rights and my Miranda Rights"

"I would love to let you in my house to look around without a Search Warrant. But I cannot do that without violating my Fourth Amendment Rights"
"There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual,
but you cannot make him respect you." --William Hazlitt

NEW CASELAW August 21, 2008

Case Name: U.S. v. Craighead, District: 9 Cir , Case #: 07-1-135
Opinion Date: 8/21/2008 , DAR #: 13245
Case Holding:
Interrogations occurring inside the home are custodial, requiring Miranda advisements under the Fifth Amendment, if the circumstances turn it into one of a “police-dominated” atmosphere.

Speaking personally, if there was no cop there, I would darn sure turn it into a "police dominated atmosphere", by calling 911 and report that my home was being trespassed under the Color of Law with no Warrant. If they DO have a warrant, SHUT UP, SHUT UP, SHUT UP.

NEW CASELAW June 1, 2010

Court: Suspects must say they want to be silent
By Jesse J. Holland ASSOCIATED PRESS
11:27 a.m., Tuesday, June 1, 2010

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that suspects must tell police explicitly that they want to be silent to invoke Miranda protections during criminal interrogations, a decision one dissenting justice said turns defendants' rights "upside down."

A right to remain silent and a right to a lawyer are the first of the Miranda rights warnings, which police recite to suspects during arrests and interrogations. But the justices said in a 5-4 decision that suspects must tell police they are going to remain silent to stop an interrogation, just as they must tell police that they want a lawyer. FULL STORY

Print one of these up to hand to the CPS agent when she wants to force her way in your house or threaten you-
Violation_Warning-Denial_Rights_under_Color_Law.pdf

About Psych Evals-

We believe the court-ordered psych exam is a violation of your 5th Amendment rights.
Don't entertain the folly that psychiatrists are your friend.
No, you do not enjoy professional "confidentiality" with them.
They are the foremost tool of character assassination.

Also see AFRA Dress Codes.
How you dress and conduct yourself in interviews, at court, or with the Mental Illness Clinicians- matters.
NEW 8-10-2011
How do I fight
a Negative
(phony)
Psych Eval?


You Have The Right To Remain Silent: Fifth Amendment Explained
by Bill Rounds
December 9, 2010
Copyright © 2010 How to Vanish

“No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.” ~ Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution

The right to remain silent is a fundamental principle of liberty. It gives American citizens better privacy. The burden falls on the accuser to build a case against a person. If the accuser does not meet that burden, the accused is free to go. The accused never, ever, is required to furnish any evidence or testimony against himself.1 In other words, liberty requires that you have the right to remain silent.

If the accused were forced to produce evidence that they did not commit an act, innocent people would be forced to prove a negative.2 Proving a negative is usually far more difficult, if not impossible to do. Anyone without an alibi would be convicted. No one could afford to spend even one minute alone in that kind of world.3 The right to remain silent preserves a functioning system of justice and a functioning society. FULL STORY

Bill Rounds, J.D. is a California attorney. He holds a degree in Accounting from the University of Utah and a law degree from California Western School of Law. He practices civil litigation, domestic and foreign business entity formation and transactions, criminal defense and privacy law. He is a strong advocate of personal and financial freedom and civil liberties. This is merely one article of 73 by Bill Rounds J.D.

1- Which is why you should NEVER pour your heart out to a CPS agent or psych

2- Which is what an allegation and prosecution by CPS is. The accusation is the PROOF NOT innocent until proven guilty

3- Which is exactly where falsely accused parents find themselves.

Mission Critical Need-to-know info- On June 1, 2010 the Supreme Court gutted Miranda.
You have to SAY "I want to remain silent, and I want a lawyer"

#4

**CAVEAT** The following gray paragraph is merely OBLIGATORY so I don't appear too radical.
I don't really believe you are going to find a lawyer in your area who gives a shit.
I really believe YOU are going to have to learn DIY Law and fight your OWN battles.
BUT, the advice in the gray paragraph below HAS actually HELPED a couple of people I have heard back from.

If there is a lawyer in your area who HATES CPS and knows how to put up a DEFENSE, hire him now and help him defend you.

If you have to sell the car, mortgage the house, clean out your retirement fund, borrow from relatives- pay his retainer. (No, you shouldn't have to do this to receive "justice", but this is the way the new progressive "sustainable government" works.)

Not just any lawyer will do. Get the Yellow Pages, open it to "Attorneys".

Start at A and go through Z until you find one that hates CPS as much as you do

If you get a court-appointed attorney, you may or may not receive a "vigorous defense". About the standard pay they receive is $500 total, so the pay is no motivation to them. You might get a young, idealistic one fresh from law school, and he may be pretty aggressive. Some older ones who are not calloused may also really go to bat for you and the children and provide Competent Counsel.

If the lawyer you are considering does NOT agree with THIS CREED in defending you, walk away.

"Lack of counsel of choice can be conceivably even worse than no counsel at all, or having to accept counsel beholden to one's adversary." Burgett v Texas, 389 US 109

In all cases, Help your lawyer defend you

Be aware that some "courts" may be so "unencumbered by the Constitution" that a lawyer "may" risk his Bar License by providing a "vigorous defense". (See What Happens in the FOG)

There are also stories about CPS KIDNAPPING THE LAWYER'S CHILDREN AND ASSASSINATING HIS CHARACTER TOO. We have heard of CPS doing the same thing to JUDGES, Doctors, Police officers, other CPS people (Whistle-Blowers), and even State Representatives who challenge CPS' lies and fascist activities.

Also see Make Your Court-Appointed Attorney Work For YOU at fightcps.com

NEW! August 8, 2008 How I Found Attorney Who "Hates" CPS

If there is NO such lawyer (there's not very many), or you are penniless,
~you are going to have to learn how to DO IT YOURSELF in pro per or pro se~

"The will to win means nothing without the will to prepare." -Juma Ikangaa, 1989 NYC Marathon winner

NOTE- If you ARE a LAWYER who wants to learn HOW, see-
Legal Information

TELL YOUR LAWYER about-
The National Project to Improve Representation
for Parents Involved in the Child Welfare System
Sponsored by-
Preparing a Vigorous Defense
Stuckle and Ferguson, PLLC

When facing false allegations, the accused must be prepared to fight for their life.

Because of the special nature of child sexual abuse cases, erosion of constitutional rights, determination of the child savers that you are guilty- you must vigorously defend yourself and prove your innocence!

If an attorney says to “wait and see if you are indicted”…WALK AWAY IMMEDIATELY! The best time to get a dismissal is before a formal charge. LOTS MORE

If you have no lawyer- Get the
TRUTH ON THE RECORD
YOURSELF
101
#5
Write your own version of history in a Sworn Declaration
and FILE IT with the Court, the CPS, the DA, and whoever else that has ANYTHING to do with your case.

You are SWEARING to the truthfulness of your statements. The CPS witches aren't swearing to ANYTHING (what is SACRED to them that they COULD swear on? The Communist Manifesto or the Humanist Manifesto II?)

You had better be telling THE TRUTH with no "embellishments" and citing FACTS you can back up with evidence or witnesses' sworn statements. Say NOTHING self-incriminating. If you have something to hide, you aren't going to lie your way out of it.

Grammar Quick Help Class 101 How your papers LOOK matters!



The importance of your Sworn Declaration cannot be over- emphasized!


THE ONLY WAY you have appealable "issues" in the future is to get your facts ON THE RECORD in court.


Just filing your papers yourself with the court clerk may be the ONLY way to
GET THE TRUTH ON THE RECORD

If you don't get anything ON THE RECORD, you will likely have NO appealable issues in the future.
See this and ESPECIALLY THIS

NEW! 7-25-2011

Brand new proof that our recommendation to PUT THE TRUTH ON THE RECORD in court is good advice-

JurisDictionary- Using On-Line Legal Research

"If you want to win in court, you must make it crystal clear on the court's official record that the judge will be reversed on appeal if he rules against you! Nothing else matters!"

See Full Story at AFRA Front Page News

How to Write a Declaration of Facts to Submit to the Court
Linda Martin
FightCPS.com
December 22, 2010

When parents appear in Juvenile Court they are handed a report written by a CPS social worker. It states the county’s side of the court case.

Who writes a similar report explaining the parents’ side of the case to the judge?

Usually, nobody.

Legal documents explaining the parents’ side aren’t written because they have court-appointed attorneys that in general, often don’t care enough to take the time to produce legal documents. Many of these attorneys receive a flat fee per case so there’s no financial motivation for providing an aggressive defense for the parents.

Most often, court appointed attorneys in Juvenile Court simply guide the parents through the hearings and advise them to sign a plea or stipulation of some kind, which implicates them as being guilty. If the parents sign (most do because their court-appointed attorneys are advising it) there will be no trial – no opportunity for them to protest their innocence or defend themselves. Without a trial there’s never going to be a time when the CPS social worker has to prove the county’s case.

So what should CPS victim-parents do to counteract the problem of having a court-appointed attorney who won’t aggressively defend them? FULL STORY

#6 Get your records from the agency-

GET YOUR RECORDS



#7
[Blanket, Bottle, Nuk, Crack Pipe] Clean up your house and your life.

Obviously, if your house is a mess or your life is a mess, your CPS worker is going to use every bit of it against you. There is (so far as we know) absolutely NO LAW about "dirty house", but they make a big deal out of it.

Shacking up with a boyfriend is the path to hell. Boyfriends have NO "natural affection" for your children, and they are the #1 baby rapists and child abusers and killers, at the TOP of any statistical data.

So this is something YOU CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT. Clean up. Quit smoking. Develop some MORALS. Maybe find a nice Foursquare church in your area.
"The foundation of national morality must be laid in private families. ... How is it possible that Children can have any just Sense of the sacred Obligations of Morality or Religion if, from their earliest Infancy, they learn their Mothers live in habitual Infidelity to their fathers, and their fathers in as constant Infidelity to their Mothers?" --John Adams, Diary, 1778

Whatever you are doing that you KNOW is wrong, the choice is between your laziness, habits, lifestyle choices, CATS, and YOUR KIDS.

"YOU MUST LOVE YOUR CHILDREN MORE THAN YOU HATE YOUR EX" -Bessie Hudgins

You choose. If you can't, then don't complain about what happens.



SUI JURIS

THE TRUTH IN THE RECORD
A PROCESS FOR THE PEOPLE
TO ACCESS THE COURTS

By Pamela and Will Gaston

CPS-

UNCONSTITUTIONAL
unconstitutional [uhn-kon-sti-too-shuh-nl] -adjective
contrary to or failing to comply with a constitution; especially : violative of a person's rights guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution- unconstitutional search and seizure —un·con·sti·tu·tion·al·i·ty noun —un·con·sti·tu·tion·al·ly adverb
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

"He has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harass our People, and eat out their Substance. " - -The Declaration of Independence


Become a member today! It’s super easy to do-
Join American Family Rights Association using your Facebook ID


http://familyrights.us / how_to / step-by-step.html

-t

[RockEnds]

So basically, cps got exactly what they wanted in the first place. Par for the course. I'm surprised they didn't demand testing for marijuana. I've seen being "calm" used as an excuse for that. If they sign to get the kids back, obviously cps will continue its involvement. She shouldn't be surprised if that is the next demand. Hopefully they have a lawyer. If they're having marital difficulties, and she is the parent being targeted, she should probably have her own attorney. Utah is a very adoption friendly state. Lots of really shady deals coming out of Utah as far as private adoptions go. Here's two cases:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/29/terry-achane-adoption_n_2574394.html

http://www.babyemmawyatt.com/OurStory.html

It's good that the kids can go home. It's not good that they're coming home only after cps got exactly what it wanted. I would probably lawyer up.

[better-dead-than-fed]

If she signs, she will most likely have her kids back briefly and then will loose them permanently.

Without knowing the exact wording of the document they are coercing her to sign, I assume you are right.

She could sign nothing. If the judge still ordered a supervision-condition for return of her children, that would be on him, and he could not pretend she had consented.

Or she could sign it and write next to her signature, "my signature is involuntary and coerced"; for truth's sake.

If the judge retaliated because she declined to sign, it seems the burden would then be on the government to show that her not signing a piece of paper somehow made her a more dangerous parent.

[fr33]

I would probably lawyer up.

Should have been done from the start (if it wasn't).

[tangent4ronpaul]

Kidjacked: To seize control of a child by use of force

http://kidjacked.com/

Parent Education & Resource Network

Your Children are at risk and face a sinister threat, which is controlled, funded and supported by every state child welfare agency in the nation. Child Protective Service (CPS) agencies abuse their federally endorsed authority to destroy the lives of 1,000 children each and every day of the year.

Kidjacked a parental guide to CPS, contains legal resources, case law, family rights news and actual family court cases. You will find stories of courage, suffering and occasionally even success. Visit the Jacked Up Blog to learn more about our "Stolen Generation". Don't miss the archive section.
(lots more)

http://kidjacked.com/defense/15_helpful_tips.asp

When They Come After You
17 Helpful Tips on how to protect your family

When the Child Protective Service comes to your door, take it seriously. Never think that it can't happen to you because you're a good parent. It can, and has happened to millions of good parents. Good parents lose their children to CPS and foster care everyday. It can take months, even years to get your children back home.

Being a good parent is an aberration to a DHS, CPS, and DCFS agent. They are taught that all parents are "potential" child abusers and that if any of the symptoms are present, it's better to "err on the side of caution" and remove the children from the home (as a precautionary measure, of course). They are also taught to do anything, say anything, lie, con, and swindle to get into the home to question the children and interrogate the parents.

Follow these tips to help tip the scales of justice in your favor...

Be polite, even if you're incensed: Their insufferable, insidious, condescending attitude will make you angry. It is designed to do so to allow them to write in their report: "Subject exhibits latent violence and is uncooperative." Strike one. That is part of the scam.

Don't allow them into your home without a proper warrant: They will lie, intimidate, and attempt to con their way into your home, but don't allow it. Unless they have a properly issued warrant, signed by a judge, based on sworn testimony by a named person, they have no right to enter your home -- unless they can pony up a possible immediate danger to the child. Be polite while refusing entry. There's nothing a DHS/CPS/DCFS worker likes more than for you to show anger and, especially, curse them.

They are usually accompanied by policemen, some of whom will push their way in. If this happens, you may sue each person involved personally, (police officers and all authority figures are personally liable for damages when they exceed their lawful authority and exceeding their authority is not protected by the Good Samaritan laws) not for charging you, but for forcing his or her way in.

Don't get beat up trying to stop them in this case. Sue them later. You will probably need the money to mount a defense.

Remember, case law has held that if you invite them into your home,
you give up your right to be safe from search and seizure.
Don't let them in! Make them force it.

Never strike or touch a police officer but verbally inform them that they do not have permission to enter your residence.

Never sign anything: They will attempt to get you to sign papers, "just to get this sorted out, don't-cha know," but don't fall into their trap. The only reason for you to have to sign anything is for you to sign away your rights. Politely refuse to sign anything until your attorney has reviewed the documents and can properly advise you to do so. And suspect your attorney's advice if DHS, CPS, or DCFS recommended him.

Don't answer any questions without (your) lawyer being present: DHS, CPS, and DCFS workers will take this as an indication of guilt, but that's OK. They twist everything you do or say into an indication of guilt in their minds. But if you allow them to ask you questions without a lawyer present, you've givenup your right to remain silent.

Do allow them to see the children through the window to assure them they're OK: To reduce the possibility that they'll testify that you kept them from seeing the children because they were abused, bring the children to a front window and let them see them. [Important Update]

Do take the children to your own doctor as soon as possible: The next thing to do is take the children to your own doctor and have them examined to show that no abuse, sexual or otherwise, has occurred. Then have the doctor write a report on his findings and give a copy of it to the DHS, CPS or DCFS worker. If they have decided to charge you anyway, they will reject it and insist on their own examination, which, once they have taken the children they may do, and you can't stop it. But your original doctor's examination can be an effective counterpoint if their doctor says abuse has occurred, which they often do. They know who pays them for the right finding. [Important Update]

Don't believe anything they tell you: DHS, CPS, and DCFS workers are trained in all the best ways to con and scam you into doing what they want you to do. They're experts at it. Their training spends a lot more time on this than it does on what actually constitutes child abuse. They're subjected to months, even years of conditioning and brainwashing themselves, disguised as training. Many are not even aware they're running a con on you.

They think what they do is necessary to get child abusers off the street. Many are good people who really do care about the welfare of the children. It is the people in charge who have the ulterior motive to take complete control over your children for their nefarious purposes. But the result is the same. They lie.

Don't allow unsupervised interviews with the children: Unsupervised interviews with your children are little more than conditioning sessions where DHS, CPS or DCFS workers and their captive counselors use questioning methods that would not be allowed to be used against a murderer, much less against a frightened and impressionable child.

Your children just aren't prepared to withstand such leading questioning, which is designed to get something on you. They con them into believing that you're already in big trouble, and you can be saved if the children will just say you did something so they can go home.

After children have been taken, there's nothing you can do to stop these unsupervised interviews that will take place over a period of months, even years, until your children may finally break down and tell them what they want to hear, just to make it stop. But if you stop them from doing it in the beginning, there is a chance that charges will never be filed and they will not be taken from you.

Don't allow them to physically examine the child without your presence, or your lawyer's presence: Never allow them uncontrolled access to your children as long as they are in your custody. If a court orders a physical examination (while you still have custody), insist on either being present yourself, or have your attorney present to protect your, and your children's interests In addition, you should try to videotape all sessions or get a court order forcing them to do so, with copies to be available to you.

Don't allow them to come to your home later for an interview: Allowing them to enter later also forfeits your right to be safe from search and seizure. And you can be sure that a sharp-eyed DHS, CPS, or DCFS worker will be able to find something they can twist to incriminate you. If interviews are required, insist that they be at the DHS, CPS, or DCFS office, or better still, at your attorney's office (that way they can't just take them while you're there).

Tape record all conversations with DHS, CPS, or DCFS workers and others involved: To keep an accurate record of events, plus to have proof of any threats made by DHS, CPS, or DCFS workers or counselors, always tape record all conversations with them, either in person or by phone (there's an inexpensive attachment for your phone available at any electronics store, or Radio Shack).

Some states restrict your right to tape conversations, so check your state laws. In states that allow secret taping if one of the parties to the tape knows, you can either let them know they're being taped, or not, at your wish. But in states where notification is required, you should place the tape recorder in full view in personal interviews, and make it a point to advise them they're being taped at the beginning of every phone call. In this day and age, where there's almost a videotape camera in every home, videotapes of proceedings can also help. Make a record. Then they can't deny their violation of your rights (Personally, I would make sure they knew they were being taped, even if the law doesn't require it).

Keep a journal: The same applies to keeping a journal. If you keep a detailed chronological (day-to-day) journal of events, showing dates, times, quotes, reference to audiotapes and videotapes, etc., they won't be able to get away with lying when they say they notified you of a hearing when they didn't. The very existence of such a journal (and you should definitely let them know you're keeping it) will tend to keep them somewhat more honest, or at least make it more difficult for them to scam you.

Never accept a plea bargain if you're innocent: One of their basic patterns is to pile charge upon charge, knowing they can't make most of them stick, including the ones they hope will stick, so they can tell you all about all the long years your children will spend in foster care if you don't accept the plea bargain they're offering you.

One of their best-used lines is that "if you just confess you will get your children back sooner." It's a tired old con, people. If they had any kind of a strong case, you'd never see them until it was court time.

I don't care how good their plea bargain sounds, if you're innocent, don't fall for it. That's how they get most of the convictions they do get of innocent people. They make it look as bad as possible, then get you to plead guilty, which involves an admission of guilt. or plead no contest, which allows them to still treat you as guilty.

Hire a private investigator if you can afford it: I know that most of the people they go after are the poor. They're easier targets. But one of the factors they forget as they move up the ladder and start charging more and more middle-class people is that these people aren't nearly as likely to buy their con.

They are much more resistant to being intimidated because they aren't government wards. And they have more money for such things as lawyers and private investigators. If you do, by all means hire one to investigate everybody involved, especially the worker, the counselors (especially the counselors), the guardian ad litem, the foster parents who have your child, etc. You'll be surprised how much evidence of naked bias you'll find in such an investigation. It's legal, and it's your right. If you find something, by all means use it.

Don't willingly surrender the children: Don't ever willingly surrender the children. To do so gives them the whip hand. Anything you can do to keep the children out of their hands stops them from being able to hold them for ransom (your hopping thru hoops).

Don't do anything that puts you under the control of DHS, CPS, or DCFS: Don't willingly move out of the home on DHS, CPS, or DCFS demand, or do anything that puts the family under DHS, CPS, or DCFS control (see don't sign anything, above). When they get control, they go wild.

Fight them, tooth and nail: Don't ever give up. One of my favorite pictures is of a heron that is trying to swallow a frog headfirst while the frog has his "hands" firmly around the heron's throat. That, for me, is the picture I want to convey to you.

http://www.swampstallionfishingadventures.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/never-give-up-frog.jpg

Don't ever give up your quest to keep, or regain your children from these vicious and evil people who have a demonstrated anti-family bias. True, many DHS, CPS, or DCFS workers are honestly trying to do the best they can for the children, and there is still a lot of child abuse for them to work on. But their incessant pursuit of demonstrably innocent families takes money and manpower away from their ability to pursue other families.

And remember that it is safer to take a nonviolent persons children that a violent persons children (as they may get hurt with at violent persons house)

Editors Note: Obviously, this list has been added to -- or someone can't count. At any rate, please share this list with friends and family members. It is crucial that parents everywhere know and understand their rights.

-t

[Pericles]

After the kids are returned, I'd say they have less than 12 hours to move to another state and I would also advise investment in personal security devices.

Lesson: When they come for you, life as you knew it is over.

[tangent4ronpaul]

OK, this is an association. To be invited to join, you must be an attorney that has successfully won a "child abuse" case. The pickings are thin. I'm assuming UT is correct, however, I would check out these listings for any states that touch UT, as some attorneys get licensed in neighboring states, especially if they live near the border and specialize in a particular area of law.

http://www.falseallegation.org/members/contributing-members/

Aric M. Cramer
St. George, UT
www.ariccramer.com
435-414-1280

looks like that's it... see also:
http://www.falseallegation.org/members/donating/
http://www.falseallegation.org/members/supporting-members/

http://www.falseallegation.org/


-t

ps: there are huge numbers of listings in other states. Check the DB.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Child Abuse Defense Kit
http://cadkit.tripod.com/

Not in UT, but will talk to you for free!

Sacramento [Ref: L.Wimberly]: Did pro bono work: Paul Grieson, Grieson Law
Firm. Tom Mahoney (on the indigent panel) and Don Buchman, both good,
reasonable. Other great attorneys (expensive): Clyde Blackmon, Michael
Rothschild, Michael Sands (teaches at McGeorge. Officially retired, but can
help).
^^^^ You'll have to track them down, no contact info.


Marc Lafer (California) 714-705-5000.
Not a child sex abuse lawyer, but has acquired some expertise the hard way by fighting his own
case). Will gladly give pro bono consultations on dependency cases and civil
rights litigation.
e-mail-mlafer@hotmail.com

-t

[Origanalist]

I'm out of rep for tangent4ronpaul. :( He deserves much more than I can give him.

[Pericles]

I'm out of rep for tangent4ronpaul. :( He deserves much more than I can give him.
Got you covered

[susano]

Awesome job on all the info, t. Scary shit.

[devil21]

People bombarded all of the agencies involved with Kokesh's case.

Anybody know the contact info for the CPS and court involved in case someone wants to make their voice heard?

[better-dead-than-fed]

OK, this is an association. To be invited to join, you must be an attorney that has successfully won a "child abuse" case. The pickings are thin. I'm assuming UT is correct, however, I would check out these listings for any states that touch UT, as some attorneys get licensed in neighboring states, especially if they live near the border and specialize in a particular area of law.

http://www.falseallegation.org/members/contributing-members/

Aric M. Cramer
St. George, UT
www.ariccramer.com
435-414-1280

looks like that's it... see also:
http://www.falseallegation.org/members/donating/
http://www.falseallegation.org/members/supporting-members/

http://www.falseallegation.org/

-t

My sources in Arizona tell me that CPS corruption is widespread, attorneys supposed to help families have a financial interest in assisting the state, and the courts and bar association permit attorneys to betray their clients.

[Original_Intent]

Well, another update.

Apparently she still didn't sign, and pre-trial is set for Sept 9.

I also did not know this, but she lives in Lehi, Utah - about 5 miles from where I live. Even though this is on the Wasatch front, the area is semi-rural - small clusters of neighborhoods interspersed with fields and pastures. Now I realize, that doesn't mean safe necessarily, but I think those judgments belong to the parent.

At any rate, there is some community support building. Connor Boyack of Libertas Institute of Utah is getting people fired up over the issue on Facebook, and he is quite the crusader on the Liberty issues. So we will see what "public outcry" we can raise over this.

The really sickening thing is the number of people online (including on this forum as well as the Libertas Facebook thread) who essentially say she IS an unfit mother and that CPS is acting appropriately here.

Wow, even here in Utah where the family is held up as the building block of civilization and supposedly the center of the purpose for our mortal existence. The statist have really done quite a number on programming us to accept slavery.

[moostraks]

Well, another update.

Apparently she still didn't sign, and pre-trial is set for Sept 9.

I also did not know this, but she lives in Lehi, Utah - about 5 miles from where I live. Even though this is on the Wasatch front, the area is semi-rural - small clusters of neighborhoods interspersed with fields and pastures. Now I realize, that doesn't mean safe necessarily, but I think those judgments belong to the parent.

At any rate, there is some community support building. Connor Boyack of Libertas Institute of Utah is getting people fired up over the issue on Facebook, and he is quite the crusader on the Liberty issues. So we will see what "public outcry" we can raise over this.

The really sickening thing is the number of people online (including on this forum as well as the Libertas Facebook thread) who essentially say she IS an unfit mother and that CPS is acting appropriately here.

Wow, even here in Utah where the family is held up as the building block of civilization and supposedly the center of the purpose for our mortal existence. The statist have really done quite a number on programming us to accept slavery.

She was smart not to sign it. The grounds for which they are forcing supervised visitation are ridiculous. They will most likely demand she gets a CPS psych evaluation. These are rigged. The offices are chosen because they rule in favor of what the assessment states is occurring. The counter to this will be to get a separate evaluation. It is great that they are getting community support behind them. We fought quietly against it and it took almost a year before anyone listened. There is a time limit and our case almost aged out, which is what CPS will try to do when they don't have evidence. Then once a certain time frame has passed, even if there is no credible reason other than they are currently involved, the state gets custody. Getting a judge to be reasonable and hear you is the hardest thing esp. if you trust a court appointed attorney who will not have his clients interest at heart because they usually assume the worst of the accused and have familiar relationships with the other attorneys who fight for CPS.

By the time we were done, the judge, GAL, and our own attorney had their eyes wide open to what corruption was occurring. They were all friends with those in CPS. The woman in charge of the local CPS office went into early retirement, her next lower associate was fired as well as the caseworker who was immediately involved. The only one we do not know about was the initial intake worker who was also a liar and filed false reports for the initial action. The office then tried to send someone after us in our new home because the foster mother stole most of my daughter's belongings while returning thrift store goods quality instead and we dared to ask what happened. We shut that down real quick without even a discussion because we learned how to legally deal with CPS. Her belongings we wrote off. The organization is completely corrupt and filled with vultures. My prayers are with this family. They can be beat but the family will always bear the scars.

[tod evans]

Well, another update.

Apparently she still didn't sign, and pre-trial is set for Sept 9.

I also did not know this, but she lives in Lehi, Utah - about 5 miles from where I live. Even though this is on the Wasatch front, the area is semi-rural - small clusters of neighborhoods interspersed with fields and pastures. Now I realize, that doesn't mean safe necessarily, but I think those judgments belong to the parent.

At any rate, there is some community support building. Connor Boyack of Libertas Institute of Utah is getting people fired up over the issue on Facebook, and he is quite the crusader on the Liberty issues. So we will see what "public outcry" we can raise over this.

The really sickening thing is the number of people online (including on this forum as well as the Libertas Facebook thread) who essentially say she IS an unfit mother and that CPS is acting appropriately here.

Wow, even here in Utah where the family is held up as the building block of civilization and supposedly the center of the purpose for our mortal existence. The statist have really done quite a number on programming us to accept slavery.


Cyber support from out here in the sticks..

Fuck CPS!

[RockEnds]

Do either of the parents have any family who can take the kids while the case is being heard? Here's a list of people who would qualify as family in Utah:

http://icpcstatepages.org/utah/relativestudies/

She really needs to find out if the younger children are in a pre-adoptive placement. If they are, the clock is ticking. If the kids are with relatives, the time they spend out of the home does not necessarily count toward tpr. I know it didn't in my state. She should check with her attorney to see how it works there. Also, I know this isn't something most people want to consider, but I'll throw it out there anyway. If they are only accusing the mother, if she were to temporarily move out, could the kids come home without signing any sort of plan? Make her return contingent upon the hearing? It's another question for the attorney. It's important to stop the TPR clock from ticking, especially with the younger kids. Just don't do something crazy without talking to the lawyer.

Have they requested a CASA? It's not a cure all by any stretch, but CASAs are independent volunteers who do not profit from the child welfare system. The advocate can go where the child goes. They can speak to anyone involved at any level of the case. They are the citizen overseer. They are a party to the case and can write a recommendation to the court. No guarantee the volunteer will side with the parents, but it's the only protection built into the court system aside from attorneys. Anyone can request a CASA including the parents of the children.

[mosquitobite]

Do either of the parents have any family who can take the kids while the case is being heard? Here's a list of people who would qualify as family in Utah:

http://icpcstatepages.org/utah/relativestudies/

She really needs to find out if the younger children are in a pre-adoptive placement. If they are, the clock is ticking. If the kids are with relatives, the time they spend out of the home does not necessarily count toward tpr. I know it didn't in my state. She should check with her attorney to see how it works there. Also, I know this isn't something most people want to consider, but I'll throw it out there anyway. If they are only accusing the mother, if she were to temporarily move out, could the kids come home without signing any sort of plan? Make her return contingent upon the hearing? It's another question for the attorney. It's important to stop the TPR clock from ticking, especially with the younger kids. Just don't do something crazy without talking to the lawyer.

Have they requested a CASA? It's not a cure all by any stretch, but CASAs are independent volunteers who do not profit from the child welfare system. The advocate can go where the child goes. They can speak to anyone involved at any level of the case. They are the citizen overseer. They are a party to the case and can write a recommendation to the court. No guarantee the volunteer will side with the parents, but it's the only protection built into the court system aside from attorneys. Anyone can request a CASA including the parents of the children.

CASA here is as embedded and corrupt in this system as CPS is. Not sure there, but CASA is no friend to families here. :(

[tod evans]

CASA here is as embedded and corrupt in this system as CPS is. Not sure there, but CASA is no friend to families here. :(

Everything government is involved in ................

[susano]

Well, another update.

Apparently she still didn't sign, and pre-trial is set for Sept 9.

I also did not know this, but she lives in Lehi, Utah - about 5 miles from where I live. Even though this is on the Wasatch front, the area is semi-rural - small clusters of neighborhoods interspersed with fields and pastures. Now I realize, that doesn't mean safe necessarily, but I think those judgments belong to the parent.

At any rate, there is some community support building. Connor Boyack of Libertas Institute of Utah is getting people fired up over the issue on Facebook, and he is quite the crusader on the Liberty issues. So we will see what "public outcry" we can raise over this.

The really sickening thing is the number of people online (including on this forum as well as the Libertas Facebook thread) who essentially say she IS an unfit mother and that CPS is acting appropriately here.

Wow, even here in Utah where the family is held up as the building block of civilization and supposedly the center of the purpose for our mortal existence. The statist have really done quite a number on programming us to accept slavery.

Do the kids remain state custody while this is being fought?

I don't think anyone on this thread said CPS acted appropriately or that those kids should have been stolen.


If I had minor children I would leave the US. I'd go to some place where there is no such 'child protection' racket. Maybe South America, maybe Malaysia, but far away from the clutches of these monsters. I cannot imagine having to go through all of the stuff that's posted here, that MUST be done, to stop these kidnappers.

When I dug into this, before, during the deal with the guy who posted at Oath Keepers, I read about a case in Tennessee where the parents got an attorney and CPS went after the LAWYER'S kids!

[better-dead-than-fed]

They will most likely demand she gets a CPS psych evaluation. These are rigged. The offices are chosen because they rule in favor of what the assessment states is occurring.

The best defense is accurate records of:

her meetings with CPS officers; and
the psychiatric evaluation.
The psychiatrist will create two levels of evidence:

a written record of statements made by the woman; and then
a medical opinion based on his record of her statements.
He will probably falsify the record at step 1.

The best defense is tape recordings of the meetings. The law varies regionally and may allow her to secretly record the meeting:

http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/recording-phone-calls-and-conversations

She can also ask the judge to order the psychiatrist to tape record the meeting.

Without a tape-recorder, she is walking into this:


A secret examination ... is fraught with dangers of the highest degree to a witness who may be prosecuted on charges related to or resulting from his interrogation. ... The witness has no effective way to challenge his interrogator’s testimony as to what was said and done at the secret inquisition. The officer’s version frequently may reflect an inaccurate understanding of an accused's statements or, on occasion, may be deliberately distorted or falsified. While the accused may protest against these misrepresentations, his protestations will normally be in vain.

... Secret inquisitions are dangerous things justly feared by free men everywhere. They are the breeding place for arbitrary misuse of official power. They are often the beginning of tyranny as well as indispensable instruments for its survival. Modern as well as ancient history bears witness that both innocent and guilty have been seized by officers of the state and whisked away for secret interrogation or worse until the groundwork has been securely laid for their inevitable conviction. While the labels applied to this practice have frequently changed, the central idea wherever and whenever carried out remains unchanging—extraction of “statements” by one means or another from an individual by officers of the state while he is held incommunicado. I reiterate my belief that it violates the Due Process Clause to compel a person to answer questions at a secret interrogation where he is denied legal assistance and where he is subject to the uncontrolled and invisible exercise of power by government officials. Such procedures are a grave threat to the liberties of a free people.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=7812116990016600848


Psychiatrist Steals People's Babies

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2116175/The-doctor-broke-families-Psychiatrist-damned-hundreds-unfit-parents-faces-GMC-probe.html

If his victims had tape-recorded their meetings with him, they would have had great evidence immediately available in their legal defense.

[jkob]

Is she being charged with a crime?

[better-dead-than-fed]

Is she being charged with a crime?

No, but the state is trying to take her children. What is your point?

[RockEnds]

CASA here is as embedded and corrupt in this system as CPS is. Not sure there, but CASA is no friend to families here. :(

That's too bad.

Well, the state is engaged in concurrent planning. It would be a good idea for the family to brainstorm in that area as well. If the kids can't come home yet, is there another place they can go to stop the clock from ticking?

[Roxi]

I'm sorry this woman is suffering, I don't agree with the state intervention... however, someone who cares about this woman needs to poke her in the eyeballs until she gets it.


I don't judge how another parent parents, and being pretty damn free range myself, I get wanting to stand back and let your kids explore the world. Maybe even letting them do things that others deem dangerous (with my supervision). Letting her 9 year old take out 3 other children, including a one year old, to explore the world on her own and get so far she had to drive to get them is utterly ridiculous.

[angelatc]

I'm sorry this woman is suffering, I don't agree with the state intervention... however, someone who cares about this woman needs to poke her in the eyeballs until she gets it.


I don't judge how another parent parents, and being pretty damn free range myself, I get wanting to stand back and let your kids explore the world. Maybe even letting them do things that others deem dangerous (with my supervision). Letting her 9 year old take out 3 other children, including a one year old, to explore the world on her own and get so far she had to drive to get them is utterly ridiculous.

Not in my day.

[fr33]

Not in my day.

Mine neither.