Photo: Moment unarmed protester confronting Egyptian tank is hit by gunfire, 91 die today

[enhanced_deficit]

http://www.globalpost.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/gp3_single_col/photos/2013-August/162996282.jpg
http://lonelyconservative.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Obama-Kerry.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=john+kerry+obama&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=xo349DaHNpQ_aM&tbnid=pXfx9mzq0l3rNM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Flonelyconservative.com%2F2012%2F1 2%2Fobama-nominating-john-kerry-to-be-secretary-of-state%2F&ei=0OMPUqjHDKugyAHy3IEo&bvm=bv.50768961,d.b2I&psig=AFQjCNF-QTmZ4uQLmPzruf9qiatTWCbIIg&ust=1376859454447569)

Obama administation approves $1.3 billion in military aid for Egypt (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/03/1220994/-Obama-administation-approves-1-3-billion-in-military-aid-for-Egypt)
Jul 3, 2013 - I find it very disappointing that the Obama administration has supported the Egyptian military with billions of dollars in aid. Less than two months ...


Egypt Military Aid to Be Paid by U.S. for Strategic Goals - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-23/egypt-military-aid-to-be-paid-by-u-s-for-strategic-goals.html)
www.bloomberg.com/.../egypt-military-aid-to-be-paid-by-u-s-for-strateg...‎ (http://www.bloomberg.com/.../egypt-military-aid-to-be-paid-by-u-s-for-strateg...%E2%80%8E)

August 14, 2013
Massacre Of Islamists By Egyptian Military Likely Strategic (http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/haroonmoghul/7252/massacre_of_islamists_by_egyptian_military_likely_ strategic/)

Israel relying on Egyptian army to counter Islamists
Published July 05, 2013
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/07/05/israel-relying-on-egyptian-army-to-counter-islamists/


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?424522-Near-700-killed-in-massacre-of-protesters-by-US-funded-Egyptian-Military-dictatorship&




Moment unarmed protester confronting Egyptian tank is 'hit by gunfire' as 91 die on day of rage and vigilantes clash with police



YouTube clip was apparently shot Friday in Ismailia, northeastern Egypt
Cell phone video shot from different angle also captured confrontation between unarmed protesters and army forces

Over 90 people dead across Egypt after Friday's protests
Morsi supporters and vigilante residents exchanged fire in Cairo
Thousands of Brotherhood supporters converged on Ramses Square
Egyptian army soldiers pictured around capital on armored vehicles
Official death toll from Wednesday's massacre in Cairo come to 638



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/08/17/article-0-1B556080000005DC-827_306x423.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/08/17/article-0-1B55609C000005DC-665_634x498.jpg Aftermath: The alleged shooting victim is seen rolling over on the ground next to another man







Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396035/Moment-unarmed-protester-confronting-Egyptian-tank-hit-gunfire-91-die-day-rage-vigilantes-clash-police.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396035/Moment-unarmed-protester-confronting-Egyptian-tank-hit-gunfire-91-die-day-rage-vigilantes-clash-police.html#ixzz2cIBB5TjV)

[fr33]

Blood is on our hands for paying taxes.

[enhanced_deficit]

Hopefully SWC Obama's pupms are doing adequate policing to protect against any blowbacks and not just revolving around gigantic haystack.

[Origanalist]

Blood is on our hands for paying taxes.

I just recently started paying them again and it's eating at me pretty badly. I fucking hate it.

[phill4paul]

Blood is on our hands for paying taxes.

Haven't payed fed income in two years. Call it conscientious objection.

[A Son of Liberty]

Blood is on our hands for paying taxes.

You're not to blame for what thieves do with their booty.

[enhanced_deficit]

You're not to blame for what thieves do with their booty.

If you know that year after year your tax dollars are being funneled to oppressive dictators who use that money to buy guns and tanks to slaughter their own people for "strategic goals" of foreign masters, you have at least a moral responsibility.

[enhanced_deficit]

http://www.globalpost.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/gp3_single_col/photos/2013-August/162996282.jpg
http://lonelyconservative.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Obama-Kerry.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=john+kerry+obama&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=xo349DaHNpQ_aM&tbnid=pXfx9mzq0l3rNM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Flonelyconservative.com%2F2012%2F1 2%2Fobama-nominating-john-kerry-to-be-secretary-of-state%2F&ei=0OMPUqjHDKugyAHy3IEo&bvm=bv.50768961,d.b2I&psig=AFQjCNF-QTmZ4uQLmPzruf9qiatTWCbIIg&ust=1376859454447569)

Obama administation approves $1.3 billion in military aid for Egypt (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/03/1220994/-Obama-administation-approves-1-3-billion-in-military-aid-for-Egypt)
Jul 3, 2013 - I find it very disappointing that the Obama administration has supported the Egyptian military with billions of dollars in aid. Less than two months ...


Egypt Military Aid to Be Paid by U.S. for Strategic Goals - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-23/egypt-military-aid-to-be-paid-by-u-s-for-strategic-goals.html)
www.bloomberg.com/.../egypt-military-aid-to-be-paid-by-u-s-for-strateg...‎ (http://www.bloomberg.com/.../egypt-military-aid-to-be-paid-by-u-s-for-strateg...%E2%80%8E)

August 14, 2013
Massacre Of Islamists By Egyptian Military Likely Strategic (http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/haroonmoghul/7252/massacre_of_islamists_by_egyptian_military_likely_ strategic/)

Israel relying on Egyptian army to counter Islamists
Published July 05, 2013
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/07/05/israel-relying-on-egyptian-army-to-counter-islamists/


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?424522-Near-700-killed-in-massacre-of-protesters-by-US-funded-Egyptian-Military-dictatorship&






To be devil's advocate, if SWC Obma pupms are giving military dictators of Egypt billions in aid, should'nt they at least demand relaese of former military dictator Mubarak who was a good friend of our closest ally Israel?




Israel shocked by Obama's betrayal of Mubarak | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/31/us-egypt-israel-usa-idUSTRE70U53720110131)
Jan 31, 2011 - JERUSALEM (Reuters) - If Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak is toppled, Israel will lose one of its very few friends in a hostile neighborhood and ...
In Israel, Mubarak's Departure Stirs Apprehension - NYTimes.com (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjABOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2011%2F02%2F12% 2Fworld%2Fmiddleeast%2F12israel.html&ei=20MSUvj7HIjd2AWaioEQ&usg=AFQjCNFuWTE7cmL3bbHYgilH_9X9OV-NjA&bvm=bv.50768961,d.eWU)
Feb 11, 2011 - The expectation was that whoever followed Hosni Mubarak in Egypt would be less friendly to ... Quiet Worries as Israel Watches an Ally Depart.
Bolton: If Mubarak falls in Egypt, Israel should bomb Iran | The Raw ... (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/01/bolton-israel-bomb-iran-mubarak-falls/)
Feb 1, 2011 - Former US Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton said the ouster of embattled Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak would speed the ...

[orenbus]

It's an issue of hypocrisy, most in our government want to maintain:

1. Camp David accords which involves to some extent the funding of aid by us to the Egyptians as a bribe to support Israel
2. Over land flights without having to get approval for our jets and first priority (no waiting in line) for our war ships through the Suez canal for easy access and speed to get our ships from the Atlantic Ocean/Mediterranean Sea to the Indian Ocean for potential and ongoing Mideast strikes
3. U.S. Military Contractors here would be out 1.3 Billion dollars a year in hardware they are currently providing the Egyptians from our tax dollars, that politicians would consider costing jobs and would upset military contractor lobbyists in Washington

All of the above being a justification to back up the current military in Egypt in the name of national security.

At the same time stories of the legitimately elected government being overthrown through a military coup, peaceful protestors caught in the crossfire between the military and the Egyptian people not being allowed to choose their own leaders puts into question why the U.S. does not want to speak honestly about what is happening in Egypt right now and follow our own laws on stopping aid to Egypt. With Apache helicopters flying over Egyptian streets it makes us seem like the worst kind of hypocrites, those that profess to want to promote democracy around the world while at the same time willing to support military dictators not in the abstract but in a real world situation, much like the case of the Shah in Iran up to the 1979 Iranian Revolution. In some ways what is happening right now in Egypt is a battle between Secular Western-like form of government and one that would be rooted in Islam while at the same time many Egyptian citizens caught in the middle of this tug of war.

The worst part is where at least some of these other cases are issues that are dealt with behind the scenes by some in our government, this is a very public case and any observer from the outside looking in can see exactly what is happening on a day by day basis which does not look very good for anyone.

[navy-vet]

Didn't we (the USA through our agent, President Carter) enter into a contractural agreement with the Egyptian government to provide them with aid on an indefinite basis? And doesn't the libertarian acknowledge and honor contracts and agreements?
I apologize for asking this question as I am sure it's probably been addressed before...

I am trying to understand why so many Libertarian folks are voicing such condemnation in regards to our foreign aid here.

[Occam's Banana]

I just recently started paying them again and it's eating at me pretty badly. I fucking hate it.

I bet you drive on public roads, too - don't you, you vicious, rotten bastard? :p;)


If you know that year after year your tax dollars are being funneled to oppressive dictators who use that money to buy guns and tanks to slaughter their own people for "strategic goals" of foreign masters, you have at least a moral responsibility.

Bullshit! Moral responsibility requires choice.


You're not to blame for what thieves do with their booty.

Exactly! Moral responsibility requires choice.

[navy-vet]

Didn't we (the USA through our agent, President Carter) enter into a contractural agreement with the Egyptian government to provide them with aid on an indefinite basis? And doesn't the libertarian acknowledge and honor contracts and agreements?
I apologize for asking this question as I am sure it's probably been addressed before...

I am trying to understand why so many Libertarian folks are voicing such condemnation in regards to our foreign aid here.

If someone in the know could perhaps steer me in the right direction in these regards, would win my appreciation and perhaps gain another member for the party.:)

[enhanced_deficit]

Bullshit! Moral responsibility requires choice.

There is alway a choice but it may not always be an easy choice.

Many of those who fund a government also vote it into office too and do nothing as their policies keep on repeating year after year.

[newbitech]

If someone in the know could perhaps steer me in the right direction in these regards, would win my appreciation and perhaps gain another member for the party.:)


1.) what party? be careful with partisan politics, even if the name sounds important enough. Same can be said of legislative bills (Patriot Act?)
2.) its probably good practice to substitute "we" for "I" and "our" for "my". Things take on a whole new meaning when individuals take personal responsibility. Not saying that you don't do that, but in this case, you have simply pointed out how "We" seem to do some pretty rotten things and that "we" probably shouldn't have signed anything. The reality is, "we" are incapable of legally signing these kinds of deals without "our" approval.
3.) Of course responsible individuals honor and acknowledge contractual agreements. So lets start with the first contract that makes all others contracts possible. I am born with my right to life and liberty. Anyone claiming authority over those two fundamental rights, or the authority to alter or otherwise alienate me from those rights is illegitimate and acts illegally. Any other contract that person attempts to enter on my behalf is null and void due to their violation of my fundamental right.
4.) by virtue of it's illegitimate authority (breaking not only the law of the land, but the very natural law on which the law of the land is founded), the actions of the usurpers in the US government that lead to killing innocents on behalf of the American people is condemned, and no contract can legally maintain justification for those acts.

Hope that helps you see the mindset a bit clearer.

[A Son of Liberty]

There is alway a choice but it may not always be an easy choice.

Many of those who fund a government also vote it into office too and do nothing as their policies keep on repeating year after year.

I don't vote, unless it's for Ron Paul. This government is a gang of thieves which has claimed dominion over me and my property.

Claiming that I as a "taxpayer" bear some moral responsibility for what the thugs do with their loot would be like claiming a slave bears some moral responsibility for what his slavemaster does with the profits from the slave's labor.

My choice, when it comes to "paying taxes" is pay or be killed. That is not a choice... that's suicide.

[navy-vet]

Thanks Newbitech. I appreciate your efforts to bring me up to speed and I guess I have some homework to do if I want to fully understand.
Peace

[enhanced_deficit]

I don't vote, unless it's for Ron Paul. This government is a gang of thieves which has claimed dominion over me and my property.
Claiming that I as a "taxpayer" bear some moral responsibility for what the thugs do with their loot would be like claiming a slave bears some moral responsibility for what his slavemaster does with the profits from the slave's labor.

My choice, when it comes to "paying taxes" is pay or be killed. That is not a choice... that's suicide.


Ok, since you put it this way, I see the point beng made by you and others.

I guess my assumoption was based on another shaky assumption that we the people have some power still and not living in political slavery.

[BenIsForRon]

Unbelievably shitty situation. Half (or more) of Egyptians are supporting the slaughter of these protestors.

[enhanced_deficit]

Unbelievably shitty situation. Half (or more) of Egyptians are supporting the slaughter of these protestors.


Interesting. Public opinion in Egypt like much of mideast tends to have interesting cross-sections.


International Poll: No Consensus On Who Was Behind 9/11 - World ... (http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/535.php)
www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international...bt/535.php‎
Sep 10, 2008 - International Poll: No Consensus On Who Was Behind 9/11 ... In Egypt 43 percent said that Israel was behind the attacks, as did 31 percent in ...

Rand Paul says Gallup poll found 70 percent of Egyptians opposed (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jul/11/rand-paul/rand-paul-says-gallup-poll-found-70-percent-egypti/)
www.politifact.com/.../11/.../rand-paul-says-gallup-poll-found-70-percen...‎
Jul 11, 2013 - In a September 2012 analysis of its survey results, Gallup wrote that "Egyptians may resent U.S. aid for the same reason some members of ...

[presence]

double

[presence]

Video: GRAPHIC: Egypt, Protester Executed, Unarmed, Hands Raised (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?424750-GRAPHIC-Egypt-Protester-Executed-Unarmed-Hands-Raised)

mod merge?

[enhanced_deficit]

Not clear if it is by design or by accident, whichever mideast country neocons intervene in ends up with lot of violence, ethnic/sectarian strife and brunt of such violence is faced by local Arab Christians. This has happened in Iraq, Palestine, Syria already; Egypt and Lebanon seem next in line of foreign induced "civil war".

Looking at current case of violence brewing in Egypt after US funded Egyptian military dictatorship overythrew elected MB government, clashes between foreign funded forces and MB supporters have resulted in massacre of over 600 protesters so far. At the same time, pro-Israel neoconservatives have been pressurig SWC puppet Obama to continue aid to Egypt's military dictators for "strategic goals'.
In this atmosphere, who'll benefit most from a civil war between Muslim Brotherhood and Coptic Christians in Egypt?

Poll: Who'll benefit most from a civil war between Muslim Brotherhood and Coptic Christians? (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?424883-Who-ll-benefit-most-from-a-civil-war-between-Muslim-Brotherhood-and-Coptic-Christians&)

[angelatc]

If someone in the know could perhaps steer me in the right direction in these regards, would win my appreciation and perhaps gain another member for the party.:)

I have no interest in pretending that you want to "join the party." But to answer your question, the contract was voided when the military ousted the democratically elected government. It is a violation of US law to provide aid to countries “whose duly elected head of government is deposed by military coup.”

[presence]

I have no interest in pretending that you want to "join the party." But to answer your question, the contract was voided when the military ousted the democratically elected government. It is a violation of US law to provide aid to countries “whose duly elected head of government is deposed by military coup.”





You must have missed the memo :rolleyes:


Thread: Coup in Egypt is Not a Coup in Egypt (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?422473-Coup-in-Egypt-is-Not-a-Coup-in-Egypt)

[LibForestPaul]

Bullshit! Moral responsibility requires choice.
So the Russians. Germans, Japanese who stood by while millions were decimated, raped muredered bear no responsibility. Just following orders. Following the law. Doing what they were forced to do. Oh dear.

The buck stops with you.

[Occam's Banana]

So the Russians. Germans, Japanese who stood by while millions were decimated, raped muredered bear no responsibility.

That's right. They do not. And what is this collectivist "Russians, Germans, Japanese" baloney?
Botswanans, Nepalese and Argentinians "just stood by by" too - why aren't they included in your list?


Just following orders. Following the law. Doing what they were forced to do. Oh dear.

Conflate distinct & disparate things, much?
Those who participate in the commission of a crime are guilty of that crime.
Those who do NOT participate in the commission of a crime are NOT guilty of that crime.
Your "grab bag" of "just following orders" etc. has got nothing to do with anything.


The buck stops with you.

No. The buck stops with those who actually commit the crimes.
Assigning collective guilt by geographical association/proximity is morally depraved bullshit.

[A Son of Liberty]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Occam's Banana again.

//

[fr33]

Why do I feel guilty then? Must be my own shortcomings because I feel guilty for paying taxes since I know what they go to.

[navy-vet]

Thanks angelatc for your time and effort in explaining that to me, as well as your candor.

[A Son of Liberty]

Why do I feel guilty then? Must be my own shortcomings because I feel guilty for paying taxes since I know what they go to.

Do you really "pay" taxes? I pay the grocery store when I buy food. I pay the gas station when I buy fuel. "Pay" implies a sort of mutually consented transaction. I don't know about you, but I'm not offered a list of services by the government from which I choose some, all, or NONE and then PAY accordingly.

The grocer doesn't deliver substandard food to your house, demand "payment" and imply that failure to do so WILL result in him confiscating your property and/or kidnapping you, and if you resist confiscation/kidnap, that he will murder you.

Nope. You don't "pay" taxes. You turn over your property to a madman who has threatened to murder you.