Truckin Mike made a profound statement, that I think is brilliant!

[Deborah K]

Kudos to Mike:


"....... regardless of what Snowdens motives were(I don't care how bad/selfish - but I don't believe they were) the information that he gave to the liberty community does not have a price on it. Its invaluable. How so? I can now walk up to my government loving liberal neighbor, the conservative republican that runs the bar down the road, or the cashier that works at the nearest convenient store and start up a conversation about how the government is watching us. ------ALL without being stared at like I was a 3-eyed hippopotamus."

TMike

Does anybody else see the relevance here? How many years were we, and Dr. Paul called loons, conspiracy theorists, etc. for making such a claim? We've been validated. And we should, ALL of us, in ALL our diversity, be out 'there' talking about this every chance we get, with every person we meet.

[angelatc]

indeed

[LibertyEagle]

Of course.

Snowden may have screwed the rest of his life to a great degree, but he sure has made his sacrifice count for something. To say I thank him for it is a huge understatement.

[donnay]

I look at it this way...when this hijacked government starts demonizing a person or a group I immediately know that it is just opposite of what they are saying. I guess that is the rebel in me. :D

[BetterCallSaul]

Not so sure how effective that is, because everyone already feared that, and also already fears that people who randomly approach them with such information are just undercover operatives. You will still get dumb stares.

[Deborah K]

Not so sure how effective that is, because everyone already feared that, and also already fears that people who randomly approach them with such information are just undercover operatives. You will still get dumb stares.

Of course you will. But it's well worth the effort. It reminds me of the effect Thomas Paine's pamphlet "Common Sense" had on the colonies. It really created a turning point. Even so, a vast majority of colonists, while they understood what was happening, chose to remain ignorant and to themselves. It mattered not, to the 'tireless minority', and before long even the willfully ignorant were affected by history.


It does not take a majority to prevail... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.
Samuel Adams

[BetterCallSaul]

I just think that "recruitment" type of language should focus on why our side is better and more fun, and not bring up terrifying negativity. If a stranger tried to chat me up about how the government is watching everything I do, it's an automatic unconscious response to think, "That's exactly why I shouldn't be talking to you, dumbass."

[S.Shorland]

It just tells you that 'they' think it is too late for 'you' to do anything about it.

[GregSarnowski]

In the same vein and just as importantly, Snowden's revelations provide the grounds for a lawsuit to move forward. No longer can the government use the ridiculous circuitous logic that no one has the standing to sue because no one can prove they are being spied on. I believe the ACLU has already started the process in motion.

Not that I have much faith in the government lawyers (I mean "judges") to do the right thing, but at least now things will eventually come to a head in a court of law.

[RickyJ]

Kudos to Mike:



Does anybody else see the relevance here? How many years were we, and Dr. Paul called loons, conspiracy theorists, etc. for making such a claim? We've been validated. And we should, ALL of us, in ALL our diversity, be out 'there' talking about this every chance we get, with every person we meet.

It all started in earnest after 9/11. 9/11 was the event that was written about in the Project for a New American Century. WTC 7 came down at near free fall speed. Without 9/11 none of these unconstitutional bills would have been passed and there would have been no invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. How can any thinking person not be a 9/11 truther?

[Carson]

Kudos to Mike:


"....... regardless of what Snowdens motives were(I don't care how bad/selfish - but I don't believe they were) the information that he gave to the liberty community does not have a price on it. Its invaluable. How so? I can now walk up to my government loving liberal neighbor, the conservative republican that runs the bar down the road, or the cashier that works at the nearest convenient store and start up a conversation about how the government is watching us. ------ALL without being stared at like I was a 3-eyed hippopotamus."

TMike


Does anybody else see the relevance here? How many years were we, and Dr. Paul called loons, conspiracy theorists, etc. for making such a claim? We've been validated. And we should, ALL of us, in ALL our diversity, be out 'there' talking about this every chance we get, with every person we meet.


So true!

It's been a real game changer.

[alucard13mm]

We are still looked at as loonies tbh.

[John of Des Moines]

We are still looked at as loonies tbh.

Really? Have had a half a dozen friends and acquaintances say, "You were right."

[NorfolkPCSolutions]

Holy shit, that was fucking brilliant. Someone buy that man a beer and something new and chrome plated for his truck.

[Sola_Fide]

I agree.

[ClydeCoulter]

Yeah, what TMike said, and this one http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?424217-NH-oath-keeper-testifies-to-expose-what-s-really-going-on-w-BEARCAT-(tube-added) can really set people on fire for listening. Just keep sharing, just keep sharing, ..."hey I can hear what's her face on Nemo"

[kathy88]

I wish Deb. stopped at my old office yesterday to see some friends. One woman, who is a bleeding heart liberal economically and a warmongering bloodthirsty bitch foreign policy wise says to me "so, what do think of Snowden?" I of course defended him as someone who did the right thing, etc... Long story short she's okay with the surveillance of her records and communications and the collateral damage in Suria et al because we killed a couple Al Quada. Drones are also a wonderful thing. She's one of those judge mental Christian types who shoves unchristian like behavior in people's faces. My parting comment left her mouth gaping open.

[donnay]

I wish Deb. stopped at my old office yesterday to see some friends. One woman, who is a bleeding heart liberal economically and a warmongering bloodthirsty bitch foreign policy wise says to me "so, what do think of Snowden?" I of course defended him as someone who did the right thing, etc... Long story short she's okay with the surveillance of her records and communications and the collateral damage in Suria et al because we killed a couple Al Quada. Drones are also a wonderful thing. She's one of those judge mental Christian types who shoves unchristian like behavior in people's faces. My parting comment left her mouth gaping open.

I really hate getting those silly responses. Must be what her government sponsored clergy told her. :rolleyes:

You should reverse it on her...If the government doesn't do anything wrong, what do they have to hide? Besides Snowden didn't directly work for the government per se, the government outsource their spying. Janet Napolitano told the citizens; "See Something - Say Something" and that is what Snowden did.

[CaptUSA]

I love that everytime something weird happens on someone's cell phone, or they get a strange email, or anything of the like, I can use it as an opportunity to call out the NSA.

Lose a phone call? "The NSA didn't like what you were saying"
Get an unknown FB invite or a private message gets deleted? "It's the NSA baiting you!"

I've never had so many opportunities to talk about our intrusive government - and people actully stop and think about it!

[Chester Copperpot]

yes, lets not let a crisis go to waste... Lets talk to everybody about how evil the govt is

[rprprs]

So true!

It's been a real game changer.


We are still looked at as loonies tbh.

Admittedly, I have no statistics to base this on - just my own observations and anecdotal evidence - but I think the true measure of Snowden's impact lies somewhere in the middle.

Point out that the government is spying on us and we will rarely any longer get looked at like we have three heads.

But try and make too much of that and carry it to its logical conclusion and you will often continue to meet with all manner of resistance and counterclaims.

Far too many dems and progressives will still excuse the surveillance simply because it's now done by their guy. And far too many on the right will justify it as a legitimate means to keep us safe, or be accepting of it just because they feel that they have "nothing to hide".

I agree with Deb's OP and Mike's observations, we need to make the most of this opportunity. But it's still an uphill battle and we still have a L-O-N-G road ahead of us.

[GunnyFreedom]

We are still looked at as loonies tbh.

Huh. A selection from the large majority of established GOP Activists in NC have spoken to me to tell me that we 'Paul people' were right all along, and I've got people who burned bridges with me in the past trying to mend fences now. It seems mostly the only people demonizing us as loonies sit in front of Cable TV cameras or write copy for newspapers.

[osan]

Does anybody else see the relevance here?

One would have to be very blind, stupid, or both not to see it.


How many years were we, and Dr. Paul called loons, conspiracy theorists, etc. for making such a claim?

Therein much of the value. The deniers have had the rug yanked out from beneath them. They have NOTHING left. The truth is out, unequivocal, and apodictic. It is now the intelligent man's turn to roll his eyes at the candy-asses whose masturbatory vigor has heretofore been focused on the maintenance of their bunnies-and-light version of the world.


We've been validated.

Not in their eyes. No way such people will acknowledge our superior analysis and perception. They will always contrive a phony baloney pretext upon which to attempt to invalidate us in their own shriveled, twisted, and little minds. But we can at least now rub their noses in something against which they will have no defense, at least until the day comes when they drop all pretenses of interest in actual human liberty - and mark my words here that for many of them that day will come and I suspect not too far down the road. They will openly proclaim the State in ways they never before dared. But now they are painted into that particular corner and face the age-old "shit or get off the pot" dilemma. Such people almost never choose the path of responsibility and accountability for themselves and their actions, opinions, and thoughts. I am tempted to assess them as being constitutionally averse to such things. In such people the corruption is the deepest, their stench the foulest, and the danger to the good and righteous man the most clear, present, and profound. Those people will one day before much longer shed the last vestiges of claiming to stand for "human rights" in any sense that the truly liberty-oriented man would ever be able to recognize as such. Their definitions of "freedom" will only spiral ever further away from the right and true meaning of the word. They may continue to use the words "freedom" and "liberty", but their versions will hold diametrically opposing meanings to the same terms as we use them. This is Orwellian operation in its truest and most immediate form. Love is hate. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Liberty is bondage.

I submit that these days are the most dangerous of all in the entire history of the human race, thus far. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst as best you are able because the tinfoil hats have been assayed as golden, rather. We ARE in the Orwellian police state with the superficiality of Huxley's Brave New World pasted on for good effect upon the vast masses of dull-witted and cow-eyed Meaners. It is here. It is now. It ain't "coming", save perhaps for the virtually inevitable amplifications we may expect.


And we should, ALL of us, in ALL our diversity, be out 'there' talking about this every chance we get, with every person we meet.

We should be doing more than just that, but yes - this too.

With each passing day my remaining hope that we can turn this around by conventional means fades a bit more. I cannot say I have the answers because the Meaners are still hopelessly entrenched in their bunnies and light. I have an old ***** friend from NJ - a real sweet guy, but heaven forgive him for his mindlessly psychotic view of the world. He loves Obama and thinks that government is here for our benefit - health, security, prosperity, freedom. His notion of liberty is the ability to get wood up whomever he chooses without being "discriminated" against or ending up in prison. I swear to you this is an intelligent person, and yet look at the choices he makes in terms of what he sees and believes! He is, in this sense, a textbook Meaner and it saddens me to think that no matter what befalls this nation, as the walls of his house burn down around him he will to his last breath blame Republicans for the result. He simply refuses to look beyond this shambled fence.

He is so typical of Meaners and it is this set of characteristics that render them so endlessly dangerous to the rest of us. It is precisely the fact that Joey Mean will ultimately become the whipmaster's tool that leads me to the bottomlessly uncomfortable suspicion that the choice soon enough to confront all of us will be to fight (physically) or lay down. There will be no middle grounds available to us. The Meaners are so helpless, so corrupted by the lure of free stuff, and generally of so timid a weave that when things are jarred toward what for them will be the immediately frightening, they will have no capacity nor inclination to stand tall for themselves and those whom they love and respect - I wonder if they love and respect anyone, themselves included - they will turn to their savior, the whipmaster, with beseeching eyes as they wait for instruction. When the instruction comes, they will carry forth with grim and narrow purpose and the rest of us will be painted into the corner of having to decide whether to get on our knees or start shooting.

But in the meanwhile I agree with Deborah - this is an opportunity we cannot afford to pass up. When you're out, strike up conversations with strangers. I have found over the past 30 years that people are most often eager to talk. I have also been very surprised at how many people shared my views. Joey Mean may not be what I think he is; it may be that my opinion has been too strongly influenced by the time I've spent before the television, so beware of that as well - it is very possible that everything I have written here is wrong in some manner and degree. Therefore, keep and open and fluid mind and reach out - it is the only way you will be able to see what is REALLY out there in terms of mindsets.

Would it not prove funny to ultimately find that there were far fewer Meaners than we thought - that there are far more intelligent and better clued-in people out there? We need to start talking with each other more and developing relationships. This distance between us serves Themme. We should remove that advantage as best we can because we are all behind the largest imaginable 8-ball.

Good luck to us.

[osan]

Huh. A selection from the large majority of established GOP Activists in NC have spoken to me to tell me that we 'Paul people' were right all along, and I've got people who burned bridges with me in the past trying to mend fences now. It seems mostly the only people demonizing us as loonies sit in front of Cable TV cameras or write copy for newspapers.


Glen, if I may be so bold: mend those fences. We need numbers. Be the better man - be magnanimous. I promise that is cannot hurt you but only help. You are a point of contact and potentially of rallying. Please PLEASE do not discount the significance of this.

[osan]

It just tells you that 'they' think it is too late for 'you' to do anything about it.

Let us hope they are that arrogant.

[GunnyFreedom]

Glen, if I may be so bold: mend those fences. We need numbers. Be the better man - be magnanimous. I promise that is cannot hurt you but only help. You are a point of contact and potentially of rallying. Please PLEASE do not discount the significance of this.

Oh, trust me, I am. :) My momma didn't raise no fool. :p

[Deborah K]

I wish Deb. stopped at my old office yesterday to see some friends. One woman, who is a bleeding heart liberal economically and a warmongering bloodthirsty bitch foreign policy wise says to me "so, what do think of Snowden?" I of course defended him as someone who did the right thing, etc... Long story short she's okay with the surveillance of her records and communications and the collateral damage in Suria et al because we killed a couple Al Quada. Drones are also a wonderful thing. She's one of those judge mental Christian types who shoves unchristian like behavior in people's faces. My parting comment left her mouth gaping open.

Don't stop trying though. There are still multitudes of people who live their lives like this:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2mg6rlj.jpg

These people are going to get what's coming......if you know what I mean.

[Natural Citizen]

Of course you will. But it's well worth the effort. It reminds me of the effect Thomas Paine's pamphlet "Common Sense" had on the colonies. It really created a turning point. Even so, a vast majority of colonists, while they understood what was happening, chose to remain ignorant and to themselves. It mattered not, to the 'tireless minority', and before long even the willfully ignorant were affected by history.

One of the things that I've always thought to be profound is that it's the person or group who always appeared to be a loon by bringing up this kind of discussion are the very people that those who looked at them like morons go to for answers to questions that they have once the cat is let out of the bag. That's an important turning point to be won or lost of you're the theoretical loon. Is a very powerful point in the scenario. How one chooses to manage that situation is a very big deal. In scope, that is...

And it's not relative to just this thing with Snowden.

[Deborah K]

One of the things that I've always thought to be profound is that it's the person or group who always appeared to be a loon by bringing up this kind of discussion are the very people that those who looked at them like morons go to for answers to questions that they have once the cat is let out of the bag. That's an important turning point to be won or lost of you're the theoretical loon. Is a very powerful point in the scenario. How one chooses to manage that situation is a very big deal. In scope, that is...

And it's not relative to just this thing with Snowden.

Agreed. Every situation is different. It depends on the venue, how much time you have to make an impact, and having the ability to assess where the person's political philosophy lies - and make no mistake, even those with their heads up their....in the sand...have an opinion (limited though it may be) about the gov'ts role in their lives. Sometimes, it's just a matter of planting seeds. Other times, it becomes an opportunity to recruit. My strangest recruitment opportunity came while eating an enchirito at Taco Bell on the way to a doc apt. We're now friends, and he attends our local prep meetings.

[Deborah K]

Another was when Mark was wearing a PaulFest T-shirt to his mother's doctor's office. We found out he was a RP supporter. He became OUR doctor after that!

[belian78]

I work for a cellular retailer, and since this has been going down I've been able to at least broach the subject with my customers. There's always like $5-$10 not accounted for in the bills, I've went over my own and customers and there are just no line items for the charges. I've started telling customers that's the charge we pay to have ourselves spied upon by the NSA.

At first folk looked at me funny and asked me what I meant, but now it's usually a 'I wouldn't doubt it' or 'Yeah I saw that on TV' then the convo goes on from there. I don't know what will come of it all, but at least it's another means to start conversations with your neighbors.

[acptulsa]

'The fellow that can only see a week ahead is always the popular fellow, for he is looking with the crowd. But the one that can see years ahead, he has a telescope but he can't make anybody believe that he has it.'--Will Rogers

The more Snowdens prove us right, the easier it is for us to make people see that our telescopes work just fine. This helps make us the people who help other people learn from history, and thus we can prevent them--and ourselves--from repeating the bad parts.

God bless the man. Hope he finds a home. Hope we can win and make his old home safe for him again.

[anaconda]

Huh. A selection from the large majority of established GOP Activists in NC have spoken to me to tell me that we 'Paul people' were right all along, and I've got people who burned bridges with me in the past trying to mend fences now. It seems mostly the only people demonizing us as loonies sit in front of Cable TV cameras or write copy for newspapers.

Sounds like an impending land slide.

[anaconda]

I look at it this way...when this hijacked government starts demonizing a person or a group I immediately know that it is just opposite of what they are saying. I guess that is the rebel in me. :D

No, no, you're right. I started doing this decoding quite some time ago. The best way to understand the government is to assume the polar opposite of what they say.

[Cleaner44]

Can we create a login for Edward Snowden and give it reputation beyond repute, just so we have it here waiting for him?

[DamianTV]

Of course.

Snowden may have screwed the rest of his life to a great degree, but he sure has made his sacrifice count for something. To say I thank him for it is a huge understatement.

Loss is having something taken away.

Sacrifice is a personal loss for the benefit of others.

Snowdens actions are that of Sacrifice. Now if only more Police Officers would recognize that.

[GunnyFreedom]

I work for a cellular retailer, and since this has been going down I've been able to at least broach the subject with my customers. There's always like $5-$10 not accounted for in the bills, I've went over my own and customers and there are just no line items for the charges. I've started telling customers that's the charge we pay to have ourselves spied upon by the NSA.

At first folk looked at me funny and asked me what I meant, but now it's usually a 'I wouldn't doubt it' or 'Yeah I saw that on TV' then the convo goes on from there. I don't know what will come of it all, but at least it's another means to start conversations with your neighbors.

I would lose my shyt over getting an itemized bill where the items don't match the bottom line. I'd probably start freaking out over embezzlement and literally screaming stuff like "Just who the hell do you people think you are??" Not trying to be mean or anything, but if I got a bill where I was being charged more than the itemizations accounted for, I would throw a conniption fit and demand immediate cancellations and refunds. That's the kind of thing that pisses me off so bad I can't see straight. :(