Detroiters Beat Man Suspected of Raping Down Syndrome Teen

[angelatc]

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/detroit-man-suspected-raping-teenager-down-syndrome-beaten-community-members-video


A family friend of the victim, Megan Herres, said the girl waited at the hospital for seven hours for the police to administer a rape kit and waited for five days before the police got around to interviewing her about what had happened. It also took the police 21 days to send the kit to the Michigan State Police Crime Lab for analysis, WXYZ (http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/detroit-community-frustrated-with-pace-of-rape-investigation?rape) reported.

The neighbors got tired of waiting, and beat the suspect with a baseball bat.

[DamianTV]

If it was a Female Cop that was raped, the total time elapsed would have been measured in MINUTES.

Further proof of the Just Us system.

[asurfaholic]

If only people would get this pissed when cops rape people on roadsides.

Justice served up hot.

I bet the cops are busy getting to the bottom of the assault now though, the baseball bat assault that is.

[Anti Federalist]

If only people would get this pissed when cops rape people on roadsides.

Justice served up hot.

I bet the cops are busy getting to the bottom of the assault now though, the baseball bat assault that is.

They will be Johnny on the Spot for that.

[fr33]

Since many police think it's ok to rape women if they smell pot on them, they probably didn't see what the problem was.

[dannno]

Since many police think it's ok to rape women if they spell pot on them, they probably didn't see what the problem was.

Ironic typo is ironic.

[tod evans]

I'm with the citizens wielding the ball-bat, they stopped short though, every cop chasing speeders or investigating drug cases deserves a liberal dose of Louisville Slugger too.

[heavenlyboy34]

I'm with the citizens wielding the ball-bat, they stopped short though, every cop chasing speeders or investigating drug cases deserves a liberal dose of Louisville Slugger too.
Are you saying you think it's okay to beat up a suspect? :eek: Remember that if you're ever accused of something and accept your gang beating gratefully.

[muzzled dogg]

street justice

[tod evans]

Are you saying you think it's okay to beat up a suspect? :eek: Remember that if you're ever accused of something and accept your gang beating gratefully.

I've been beaten, if this guys neighbors suspect he's the rapist I trust them more than some whistle-dick prosecutor in a suit sucking the states tit.

I'm not a subscriber of the NAP or the "Just-Us" system, local folks have their finger on the neighborhoods pulse, I'll place my trust in them every time.

Let justice ring, at the end of a bat if necessary.

[FindLiberty]

NOT OK FOR POLICE OR ANYONE, even if angry mob witnessed "crime"
NOT okay to beat up a suspect

[Dr.3D]

NOT OK FOR POLICE OR ANYONE, even if angry mob witnessed "crime"
That's right. He is to be considered innocent till proven guilty in a court of law.

[heavenlyboy34]

I've been beaten, if this guys neighbors suspect he's the rapist I trust them more than some whistle-dick prosecutor in a suit sucking the states tit.

I'm not a subscriber of the NAP or the "Just-Us" system, local folks have their finger on the neighborhoods pulse, I'll place my trust in them every time.

Let justice ring, at the end of a bat if necessary.
Da fuq? :eek::confused: You don't have to subscribe to the NAP to see that vigilante "justice" (especially when no one has actually been PROVEN guilty) is a pretty fucking stupid and abhorrent thing.

Why do you trust his neighbors so much? Neighbors don't necessarily know jack shit. In my current neighborhood I've only actually met a few folks.

[heavenlyboy34]

That's right. He is to be considered innocent till proven guilty in a court of law.
...except in tod evans' world...where if someone says you did something, you did it-and shut the fuck up about yer stupid trial, evidence, proof, etc. :rolleyes: :(

[fr33]

If you want a free society, you've got to clean up that violent crime in urban areas. Right now people depend on the state to do it and they aren't doing it.

[tod evans]

...except in tod evans' world...where if someone says you did something, you did it-and shut the fuck up about yer stupid trial, evidence, proof, etc. :rolleyes: :(

I'm all for courts and justice, juries of a defendants peers, judges who are members of the community.

ABSOLUTELY! Just as proscribed in the constitution.

What we currently have, this "Just-Us" system, I want no part of, so yes I consider vigilantism much closer to the way I read the constitution than the perverted "Just-Us" system that comprises the courts today.

[pcosmar]

That's right. He is to be considered innocent till proven guilty in a court of law.

He was. Local court. Found guilty. Sentenced to an ass whoopin'.

When the system is so utterly broken,, the law is held "By the people".

[asurfaholic]

This. 3 hots and a cot sounds better and better as the economy keeps slipping. FEAR motivates and demotivates effectively. 2nd amendment areas have less crime, because would-be criminals FEAR the business end of the thunderstick.

Rapist rape because the victim is powerless to stop it, but what if they feared a burning alive, well ...

[paulbot24]

Lynchmob justice should be reserved for only those that are not accountable to our Just-Us system.

[BSWPaulsen]

I've been beaten, if this guys neighbors suspect he's the rapist I trust them more than some whistle-dick prosecutor in a suit sucking the states tit.

I'm not a subscriber of the NAP or the "Just-Us" system, local folks have their finger on the neighborhoods pulse, I'll place my trust in them every time.

Let justice ring, at the end of a bat if necessary.

Any justice system, private or otherwise, would violate the NAP the first time a "suspect" is apprehended, because the issue of guilt is not yet determined. NAP is only useful as a rule for determining moral action, and is quite divorced from the mechanical pursuit of justice.

[tod evans]

Lynchmob justice should be reserved for only those that are not accountable to our Just-Us system.

According to what I read "Just-Us" failed to act in a timely manner, hence justice was invoked...

[pcosmar]

That's right. He is to be considered innocent till proven guilty in a court of law.

And if there is no court of law,, and the Law Enforcement refuses to do anything? (currant reality)

From the information given.. the girl knew the rapist from the neighborhood.. People in the community knew the perpetrator.

Police refused to lock him up.. These are the same police that will kick in doors and shoot people over non-crimes.

The community acted. and showed restraint.
He should have been seen hanging from a tree with a "rapist" sign on him.

And nobody saw nothin'.

[tod evans]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pcosmar again.

Somebody with rep please hit Pete....

[heavenlyboy34]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pcosmar again.

Somebody with rep please hit Pete....
'fraid I can't. I just don't agree with that. Vigilante justice is no more acceptable than a cop sentencing someone to death or beating by the roadside at a traffic stop. :P :( Y'all are really disappointing me today.

[belian78]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pcosmar again.

Somebody with rep please hit Pete....

Gotcha

[pcosmar]

'fraid I can't. I just don't agree with that. Vigilante justice is no more acceptable than a cop sentencing someone to death or beating by the roadside at a traffic stop. :P :( Y'all are really disappointing me today.

You have gotten it backwards,, but I blame propaganda and "education" ,, not you.

Vigilance should exist. Police should not.

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm


Early constitutions enunciated the intention that law enforcement was a universal duty that each person owed to the community, rather than a power of the government.

It is the lack of proper law enforcement and a seriously bent system that is the problem.

[tod evans]

'fraid I can't. I just don't agree with that. Vigilante justice is no more acceptable than a cop sentencing someone to death or beating by the roadside at a traffic stop. :P :( Y'all are really disappointing me today.

Vigilantism is nothing at all akin to out of control government employees.

The folks who comprise the vigilants should by all rights have a justice system they can avail themselves of, the mere act of vigilantism screams failure of the existing system of justice,(Just-Us").

As the current system grows and flexes it's muscle I fully expect to see more common folks seeking justice for wrongs perpetrated against them either by members of the "Just-Us" department or those whom they protect.

You don't have to agree or accept it, folks are fed up and many of them have faith in the justice system described in the constitution...

Much better in my opinion to shun the "Just-Us system and institute a fair and impartial justice system that actually dispenses justice...If such a system can be implemented vigilantism will be virtually non-existent..Except in the eyes of those who support the current dysfunctional system, they'll still call justice vigilantism..

[angelatc]

And if there is no court of law,, and the Law Enforcement refuses to do anything? (currant reality)

From the information given.. the girl knew the rapist from the neighborhood.. People in the community knew the perpetrator.

Police refused to lock him up.. These are the same police that will kick in doors and shoot people over non-crimes.

The community acted. and showed restraint.
He should have been seen hanging from a tree with a "rapist" sign on him.

And nobody saw nothin'.
Yeah, I'm assuming that the victim knew her attacker so the ID wasn't in question. If anything like your scenario was to happen, it would be in the black community. They have an aversion to the police that's pretty deep.

[BuddyRey]

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the next creep who decides to rape someone in D-Town will probably turn himself into the cops just to escape this guy's fate.

[paulbot24]

The articles are pretty vague. First they say "community members" attacked the rapist with a baseball bat. Then several articles say, "The condition of the accused rapist is unknown at this time. Community members say his family checked him into a facility of some sort." Which "community members" were those? I have no sympathy for a rapist whatsoever. It is just odd to hear the media talk so positively about several people getting together and nearly beating anybody to death because they got impatient with the police and the system like they were throwing a potluck. These cases often take years. Who doesn't get impatient? I doubt they would be calling me and my friends just "frustrated community members" if I had beaten the guy who molested my niece. I would like to believe they would, especially after, in my case, the man even admitted to it on tape to the police, but I doubt it.

[Christian Liberty]

Da fuq? :eek::confused: You don't have to subscribe to the NAP to see that vigilante "justice" (especially when no one has actually been PROVEN guilty) is a pretty fucking stupid and abhorrent thing.

Why do you trust his neighbors so much? Neighbors don't necessarily know jack shit. In my current neighborhood I've only actually met a few folks.

I think there are exceptions to the "Vigilante Justice is bad" rule, and I'm not even the anarchist here...

[heavenlyboy34]

Vigilantism is nothing at all akin to out of control government employees.

The folks who comprise the vigilants should by all rights have a justice system they can avail themselves of, the mere act of vigilantism screams failure of the existing system of justice,(Just-Us").

As the current system grows and flexes it's muscle I fully expect to see more common folks seeking justice for wrongs perpetrated against them either by members of the "Just-Us" department or those whom they protect.

You don't have to agree or accept it, folks are fed up and many of them have faith in the justice system described in the constitution...

Much better in my opinion to shun the "Just-Us system and institute a fair and impartial justice system that actually dispenses justice...If such a system can be implemented vigilantism will be virtually non-existent..Except in the eyes of those who support the current dysfunctional system, they'll still call justice vigilantism..
What was described before was not a true "justice" system. If we were talking about a serious system with fair lawyers, juries, etc, I'd agree with it.

[heavenlyboy34]

I think there are exceptions to the "Vigilante Justice is bad" rule, and I'm not even the anarchist here...
Such as? Isn't the vigilante system more or less the same (just less organized) as the private law enforcement agencies proposed by anarchists and universally shunned on these forums by non-anarchists?

[better-dead-than-fed]

From another thread:


These guys beat the hell out of them until they aborted.


One redeeming feature of our justice system is that these men if ever put in general population jail or prison will meet a timely demise.


I think they need to be castrated and jailed forever.


Such evil in these eyes.


I just much prefer the thought of these guys spending the rest of their lives in a maximum security prison, where the other inmates can make them crawl around on leashes during the day.


REPORT: Brothers Pedro, Onil will not be charged


“There is nothing that leads us to believe that they were involved or had any knowledge of this,” Deputy City Police Chief Ed Tomba said. “We found no facts to link them to the crime.”

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/captive_gals_endless_abuse_u7gz80eEceLeOys9QkXhDO


I just saw the interview on CNN with the brothers. Looks like they were completely deceived like everyone else. The reporter pointed out the women themselves stated the brothers had nothing to do with it. I apparently jumped the gun, so I wanted to come out and retract it.

-----------------------------

Just so no one pats themselves on the back too quickly for wanting vigilante justice. But the people in favor of some vigilantism are making good points, so I'm going to finish this post without saying much of anything.

[heavenlyboy34]

You have gotten it backwards,, but I blame propaganda and "education" ,, not you.

Vigilance should exist. Police should not.

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm


It is the lack of proper law enforcement and a seriously bent system that is the problem.
I agree. But that's not what the article describes.

[fr33]

What's with the knee-jerk reaction against vigilantism?

Let's say your neighborhood or multiple neighborhoods has a gang or multiple gangs that are always initiating violence. You can picture such a scenario easily since it is reality in many major cities.

Do you think the police and courts will solve this problem soon? Do you think they will ever solve it?


Do you think arming every other citizen not in those gangs and taking them out will solve it?


If you are being terrorized by a mafia, you and your neighbors have every right to take them out.


You'll probably agree with most of the above but deny that this instant wasn't the same in a smaller more direct scenario.

[Christian Liberty]

Such as? Isn't the vigilante system more or less the same (just less organized) as the private law enforcement agencies proposed by anarchists and universally shunned on these forums by non-anarchists?

I don't advocate doing it, but in cases where someone loudly admits to being a murderer or other serious crime, but is protected because of an evil legal system that allows that murderer.... well, as a juror I'd turn a blind eye to the use of vigilante justice, at any rate.

In a perfect government ruled by me, there would be no need for such;)

[Christian Liberty]

What's with the knee-jerk reaction against vigilantism?

Let's say your neighborhood or multiple neighborhoods has a gang or multiple gangs that are always initiating violence. You can picture such a scenario easily since it is reality in many major cities.

Do you think the police and courts will solve this problem soon? Do you think they will ever solve it?


Do you think arming every other citizen not in those gangs and taking them out will solve it?


If you are being terrorized by a mafia, you and your neighbors have every right to take them out.


You'll probably agree with most of the above but deny that this instant wasn't the same in a smaller more direct scenario.

Sometimes vigilantism is indeed appropriate.

[heavenlyboy34]

What's with the knee-jerk reaction against vigilantism?

Let's say your neighborhood or multiple neighborhoods has a gang or multiple gangs that are always initiating violence. You can picture such a scenario easily since it is reality in many major cities.

Do you think the police and courts will solve this problem soon? Do you think they will ever solve it?


Do you think arming every other citizen not in those gangs and taking them out will solve it?


If you are being terrorized by a mafia, you and your neighbors have every right to take them out.


You'll probably agree with most of the above but deny that this instant wasn't the same in a smaller more direct scenario.
Say you see someone rape someone else. You follow that John Doe and kill him. I wouldn't mind that sort of thing. (I wouldn't mind people hunting down and beating the living shit out of cops who harass and assault them either, btw) But it's way too easy for people to just make accusations. Some people do it to be vindictive, some are just insane, etc. There needs to be rationality to it, or it's not true justice.

[shane77m]

Sometimes the trains of thought on here really confuse me. It is bad to talk to the police. It is bad for citizens to take the law into their own hands.

Maybe suspects will just start turning themselves in.

[paulbot24]

What's with the knee-jerk reaction against vigilantism?

Let's say your neighborhood or multiple neighborhoods has a gang or multiple gangs that are always initiating violence. You can picture such a scenario easily since it is reality in many major cities.

Do you think the police and courts will solve this problem soon? Do you think they will ever solve it?


Do you think arming every other citizen not in those gangs and taking them out will solve it?


If you are being terrorized by a mafia, you and your neighbors have every right to take them out.


You'll probably agree with most of the above but deny that this instant wasn't the same in a smaller more direct scenario.

I agree with all of the above but I would not expect to ever be able to use this reasoning in any court if I did what they did and I really wouldn't expect the media to call it a "community effort" if I brought along a few neighbors to help me out. In a perfect libertarian world perhaps, but that is not what we have to work with. Just watch how quickly the media changes their tune when these guys are caught and charged. I bet they aren't called "concerned community members" then. Not guilty by reason of nobility will not fly and by then they'll be vilified as a bunch of bat-wielding vigilantes and the State will make an example out of them. If you're going to do it make damn sure you get away with it. Don't expect the media to have your back.

[Angel4Liberty]

Due Process.

Isn't everyone entitled to the Rights protected by the 6th Amendment?

[heavenlyboy34]

Due Process.

Isn't everyone entitled to the Rights protected by the 6th Amendment?
Not according to some people in this thread. :(

[fr33]

Due Process.

Isn't everyone entitled to the Rights protected by the 6th Amendment?
Who shall we rely on to protect such rights? It's obvious the state isn't doing it.
There are better judges than the state. You can guess who they are.

[fr33]

I agree with all of the above but I would not expect to ever be able to use this reasoning in any court if I did what they did and I really wouldn't expect the media to call it a "community effort" if I brought along a few neighbors to help me out. In a perfect libertarian world perhaps, but that is not what we have to work with. Just watch how quickly the media changes their tune when these guys are caught and charged. I bet they aren't called "concerned community members" then. Not guilty by reason of nobility will not fly and by then they'll be vilified as a bunch of bat-wielding vigilantes and the State will make an example out of them. If you're going to do it make damn sure you get away with it. Don't expect the media to have your back.
Judging from the media stories we're being told about Detroit it wouldn't surprise me if these vigilantes were deputized afterwards. The local government seems to be crumbling.

[Cutlerzzz]

Vigilant Justice is justified if you know for fact he committed the crime and use proportionate force.

Forming an angry mob to attack a man who has not been found guilty, and none of them personally witnessed commit the crime is not justice. They have don't know whether or not he is guilty. The police had not dropped the charges either and very well may imprison him or find him not guilty.

Furthermore, Vigilante Justice is dangerous. Attacking a man with a bat is possibly retarded. If he was carrying he could have legally killed all of them. If you intend on seeking private justice, bring a gun and keep your bat separate. That doesn't mean that a bat can't be used, but attacking a guy with bats sounds like the kind of thing an emotional, irrational crowd would do in the heat of the moment.

[better-dead-than-fed]

... the mechanical pursuit of justice.

The official justice system acknowledges that if a person did not personally see or hear an event, then the person's beliefs about the event are questionable. This is codified in Federal Rule of Evidence (http://www.uscourts.gov/uscourts/rules/rules-evidence.pdf) 602:


A witness may testify to a matter only if evidence is introduced sufficient to support a finding that the witness has personal knowledge of the matter....

It is codified further in the rule against hearsay testimony.

In practice, prosecutors work to get around this rule; but it still made a big difference when I was defending myself in court. Vigilantes could afford to keep in mind that if they did not personally see or hear something, they can't be 100% sure it happened.

[paulbot24]

Vigilantes could afford to keep in mind that if they did not personally see or hear something happen, they can't be 100% sure it happened.

Another thing to consider is the fact that the rape victim has Down's Syndrome. I'm not an expert on this, but several credible sources I've read so far talk about the condition's crippling cognitive effects, especially as it relates to what they call memory deficits, which inhibit accurate memory recall. Factor in the trauma and there is an even higher probability of error. What if it's the right residence but the wrong person, like a relative or friend staying there? The point is that you and all your friends might be wrong. The man hadn't even been charged yet. He probably also has friends or at least family. They might want their vigilante justice on you. They'll also feel equally justified. Are they?

[tod evans]

There's a whole bunch of "what-ifs" going on in this thread...

Many of them seem to revolve around an "angry mob" or some such..

The article describes conscientious neighbors frustrated with lack of performance by the local "Just-Us" department, not an "angry-mob".

This idea that justice can only be found in state approved and funded "courts of law" is ludicrous! These are the courts that write abusive cops and prosecutors free passes, these are the courts that regularly sentence pot growers to decades of imprisonment while sentencing child molesters to a year and some community service...

I say it's high time these members of the "Just-Us" system stood before a court of justice!

This group of neighbors, as described, weighed the evidence using their knowledge of the people involved, and after pleading with the "Just-Us" department to no avail, meted out the only form of justice they were capable of.

[paulbot24]

True. They are also capable of keeping their mouths shut about it. Why would you have friends of the family make statements about why "they" did it to the media in attempts to justify it? They might as well have stopped by the police station when they were finished talking to "help" the cops understand how their not doing their jobs left them no choice but to do it themselves. The presstitutes WILL turn on them like the ravenous wolves that they always are and the Just-us system will suddenly be looking very effective when they prosecute all of them. Christ people, if you insist on going vigilante, protect your identities and don't try to rationalize it by sobbing about the lousy police and your frustration. Just because you're ignoring the government's method of justice does not mean they will ignore yours.

[pcosmar]

Some here are not familiar with the story of Ken McElroy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_McElroy

McElroy was shot to death in broad daylight as he sat with his wife Trena in his pickup truck on Skidmore's main street. He was struck by bullets from at least two different firearms, in front of a crowd of people estimated as between 30 and 46. To date, no one has been charged in connection with McElroy's death.


The citizens decided to go to the tavern en masse. The bar soon filled completely. After McElroy finished his drinks, he purchased a six pack of beer, left the bar, and entered his pickup truck. While McElroy was sitting in his truck he was shot at several times and hit twice, once by a center fire rifle and once by a .22 rimfire rifle. In all, there were 46 potential witnesses to the shooting, including Trena McElroy, who was in the truck with her husband when he was shot. No one called for an ambulance

Nobody saw nothin'


An extensive Federal investigation did not lead to any charges.

Like it or not,,, Justice was served.. Though it was long overdue.

[angelatc]

Due Process.

Isn't everyone entitled to the Rights protected by the 6th Amendment?

Yeah, right. The Constitution. That's pretty funny.

[angelatc]

Vigilant Justice is justified if you know for fact he committed the crime and use proportionate force.

Forming an angry mob to attack a man who has not been found guilty, . It appears he was found guilty by a jury of his peers.

[pcosmar]

Such as? Isn't the vigilante system more or less the same (just less organized) as the private law enforcement agencies proposed by anarchists and universally shunned on these forums by non-anarchists?

NO. These people are not mercenaries for hire.
They are the Community.

[angelatc]

NO. These people are not mercenaries for hire.
They are the Community.

This is just another example of how big government indoctrinates people. The judicial system has morphed into a code so complicated that it takes an advanced education to learn it all. And here we are, part of me included, insisting that we need government to protect us from our fellow citizens, even as it becomes clear that government could not care less about protecting us.

[Seraphim]

If I know who commit a rape and the police aren't doing anything - first chance I get his head is on a pike or he's hanging from a light post.

Notice I said KNOW. Without a shadow of doubt. Not maybe, not speculation. But if a girl I knew could finger her rapist without any hesitation and the police won't/can't do anything...I won't hesitate to do so myself given the opportunity.

There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, doing nothing would be wrong.

For an anarcho-capitalist type you sure are lending a lot of credibilty to a VERY broken justice system...that in the case of Detroit...is essentially non existent.

Detroit is exactly where vigilante justice is REQUIRED.

Now if the men with bats did not do their homework and beat the shit out of an innocent man - they are guilty themselves and will get what is coming to them.

If they did their homework and got the right guy. Justice served.

This was not a petty crime. It was a rape. Beat the shit out of the perp. Otherwise, more women in the hood will get raped.

'fraid I can't. I just don't agree with that. Vigilante justice is no more acceptable than a cop sentencing someone to death or beating by the roadside at a traffic stop. :P :( Y'all are really disappointing me today.

[Seraphim]

This.

"Mob" justice is rarely justice at all, but when the perp is KNOWN and authorities aren't/can't do jack shit...someone has to.

In the case of Detroit - this sort of thing is unsurprising. The police are nearly non existent. If the neighbours knew they had the rapist/right guy...wtf else are they suppose to do? Sit back until another of their women is raped?




I think there are exceptions to the "Vigilante Justice is bad" rule, and I'm not even the anarchist here...

[heavenlyboy34]

If I know who commit a rape and the police aren't doing anything - first chance I get his head is on a pike or he's hanging from a light post.

Notice I said KNOW. Without a shadow of doubt. Not maybe, not speculation. But if a girl I knew could finger her rapist without any hesitation and the police won't/can't do anything...I won't hesitate to do so myself given the opportunity.

There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, doing nothing would be wrong.

For an anarcho-capitalist type you sure are lending a lot of credibilty to a VERY broken justice system...that in the case of Detroit...is essentially non existent.

Detroit is exactly where vigilante justice is REQUIRED.

Now if the men with bats did not do their homework and beat the shit out of an innocent man - they are guilty themselves and will get what is coming to them.

If they did their homework and got the right guy. Justice served.

This was not a petty crime. It was a rape. Beat the shit out of the perp. Otherwise, more women in the hood will get raped.
Not really. The government courts typically do worse. As I clarified earlier in the thread, if someone is absolutely without a doubt guilty, I'm not bothered by people taking action themselves. The just-us system likely won't help. Conditionally, it's good that the community takes care of each other WRT justice.

And I would like vigilantism used to put the fear of God into the hearts of "authorities" of all types too. (and I didn't see anything in my posts that discounted or diminished the severity of the crime, btw)

[heavenlyboy34]

This.

"Mob" justice is rarely justice at all, but when the perp is KNOWN and authorities aren't/can't do jack shit...someone has to.

In the case of Detroit - this sort of thing is unsurprising. The police are nearly non existent. If the neighbours knew they had the rapist/right guy...wtf else are they suppose to do? Sit back until another of their women is raped?
This is what I was trying to say earlier^^

[tod evans]

It appears he was found guilty by a jury of his peers.


NO. These people are not mercenaries for hire.
They are the Community.

If more communities would accept responsibility for their own citizenry our nation would be well on the way to holding not just members of the "Just-Us" department accountable for their behavior, but also the politicians that empower them...

[Seraphim]

Fair enough.

Thanks for clarifying.


Not really. The government courts typically do worse. As I clarified earlier in the thread, if someone is absolutely without a doubt guilty, I'm not bothered by people taking action themselves. The just-us system likely won't help. Conditionally, it's good that the community takes care of each other WRT justice.

And I would like vigilantism used to put the fear of God into the hearts of "authorities" of all types too. (and I didn't see anything in my posts that discounted or diminished the severity of the crime, btw)

[BlackTerrel]

I'm with the citizens wielding the ball-bat, they stopped short though, every cop chasing speeders or investigating drug cases deserves a liberal dose of Louisville Slugger too.

Remember after the Travyvon Martin verdict a couple football players tweeted for vigilante justice and pretty sure no one here supported it. In fact the players were attacked.


I'm all for courts and justice, juries of a defendants peers, judges who are members of the community.

ABSOLUTELY! Just as proscribed in the constitution.

What we currently have, this "Just-Us" system, I want no part of, so yes I consider vigilantism much closer to the way I read the constitution than the perverted "Just-Us" system that comprises the courts today.

The same Just-Us system that let Zimmerman go. Would you support the people going after Zimmerman?

[BlackTerrel]

I agree with all of the above but I would not expect to ever be able to use this reasoning in any court if I did what they did and I really wouldn't expect the media to call it a "community effort" if I brought along a few neighbors to help me out. In a perfect libertarian world perhaps, but that is not what we have to work with. Just watch how quickly the media changes their tune when these guys are caught and charged. I bet they aren't called "concerned community members" then. Not guilty by reason of nobility will not fly and by then they'll be vilified as a bunch of bat-wielding vigilantes and the State will make an example out of them. If you're going to do it make damn sure you get away with it. Don't expect the media to have your back.

Who will have their back?

Many posts on this forum here told me I had to let the Zimmerman verdict go and I must trust the conclusion of the jury.

And yet everyone admits Zimmerman killed an unarmed teen. I know nothing about this case here in Detroit.

[angelatc]

Remember after the Travyvon Martin verdict a couple football players tweeted for vigilante justice and pretty sure no one here supported it. In fact the players were attacked.

Apples and oranges. In the Martin case, the local government decided not to press charges against Zimmerman, and the people petitioned their government to redress a grievance. That resulted in the state getting involved, and a not-guilty verdict eventually emerged.

People in Detroit got no such responses from their local government.

[angelatc]

Would you support the people going after Zimmerman?

If the government had ignored the voices of the people who were demanding a trial, then perhaps.

[angelatc]

Who will have their back?

Many posts on this forum here told me I had to let the Zimmerman verdict go and I must trust the conclusion of the jury.

And yet everyone admits Zimmerman killed an unarmed teen. I know nothing about this case here in Detroit.

You wouldn't have known anything at all about the Martin case if Zimmerman was black, either.

[BlackTerrel]

You wouldn't have known anything at all about the Martin case if Zimmerman was black, either.

If he were black he would have been charged on the spot.

[BlackTerrel]

Apples and oranges. In the Martin case, the local government decided not to press charges against Zimmerman, and the people petitioned their government to redress a grievance. That resulted in the state getting involved, and a not-guilty verdict eventually emerged.

People in Detroit got no such responses from their local government.

Over time I assume he would have been charged. Or maybe not.

Regardless a guilty or not guilty verdict means nothing in this just-us system as many here have pointed out.

So why in the Zimmerman case do the mundanes have to accept the verdict of the courts?

[pcosmar]

. I know nothing about this case here in Detroit.

The first post in the thread has the story and video from the local news report..
Why are you posting about something you admittedly know nothing about?




So why in the Zimmerman case do the mundanes have to accept the verdict of the courts?

There was a trial.
I accept the verdict.. regardless of not agreeing with it. At least there was a trial.
The system is not anywhere near perfect.

[TheTexan]

He was. Local court. Found guilty. Sentenced to an ass whoopin'.

This

[tod evans]

Remember after the Travyvon Martin verdict a couple football players tweeted for vigilante justice and pretty sure no one here supported it. In fact the players were attacked.

The same Just-Us system that let Zimmerman go. Would you support the people going after Zimmerman?


Go back and re-read the Zimmerman threads, all 756 of them, I didn't comment on them then and I'm not going to now.

Care to discuss this thread?

[angelatc]

If he were black he would have been charged on the spot.

You don't know that.

Hell, that uppity ol' OJ Simpson killed himself a white woman and got the same "not guilty" verdict. Was I supposed to riot and rail enternally about that?

[angelatc]

Over time I assume he would have been charged. Or maybe not.

Regardless a guilty or not guilty verdict means nothing in this just-us system as many here have pointed out.

So why in the Zimmerman case do the mundanes have to accept the verdict of the courts?

The "just-us" system? Make up your mind. You're mocking the same system that these people circumvented?

The mundanes don't always accept the verdict of the courts. See "Rodney King" for example. But I think the lack of major upheaval in the aftermath of the Martin case shows that most people still believe that one person has the right to use deadly force to defend himself from another person, even when the attacker is a different race.

And this Detroit case shows that some communities only have so much patience. Sanford might well be a hellhole, but at least the police showed up that night. People in Detroit don't expect that to happen.

[pcosmar]

Want to understand the frustration? This was reported before the beating.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2013/08/detroit_mother_says_neighbor_w.html?utm_source=fee dburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+detroit-news+%28Detroit+News+-+MLive.com%29


"The male is still walking the streets and the community is enraged and up in arms," he said. "Unfortunately the young man is severely mentally challenged but at the same time the community is literally taking watch in that area."

Southwest Precinct Commander John Serda said he is "well aware" of the case and his department has been working on it since before citizens "bombarded" him with their concerns.

The suspect "has constitutional rights, so we can't just run out and grab him up because citizens tell us he's the perpetrator," Serda said. On Monday, "they were able to get the interview done."

My note,,
Yes they can..On the testimony of the victim.
They make arrests routinely on less for less serious crimes.


Ray's daughter on July 17 was walking to her job at a local coffee store, the first job she's ever held, when it happened.

"On her way to work he somehow got her to go with him to her apartment," Ray said Friday.

Ray's daughter remembered the brown sheets; she said the man took pictures of her nude and had sex with her.

"When he was penetrating my daughter and she said, 'Stop, you're hurting me,' and he says, 'I know I'm hurting you; I'm going to go to jail,' he knew what he was doing was wrong," Ray said. "He should be accountable. This community gets to be safe."

Playing the system,, He ain't all that retarded.

And this shit ain't new to Detroit,
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2013/08/suspected_hubbard_farms_rapist.html


The state shut down the Detroit Police Department crime lab in 2008 after the discovery of more than 11,000 untested rape kits by Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy's office prompted an investigation.

[juleswin]

Da fuq? :eek::confused: You don't have to subscribe to the NAP to see that vigilante "justice" (especially when no one has actually been PROVEN guilty) is a pretty fucking stupid and abhorrent thing.

Why do you trust his neighbors so much? Neighbors don't necessarily know jack shit. In my current neighborhood I've only actually met a few folks.

Also in the heat of the moment, it only takes the right asshole to turn the mob against an innocent man. And believe me, the mob is a violent moron, I hate for it to be the judge, jury or executioner if I am ever accused of a crime.

[BlackTerrel]

The first post in the thread has the story and video from the local news report..
Why are you posting about something you admittedly know nothing about?

Do you believe everything you read in the MSM? Other than one small article I know nothing about this case. I haven't read deep into it.


There was a trial.
I accept the verdict.. regardless of not agreeing with it. At least there was a trial.
The system is not anywhere near perfect.

Why? If a murderer is set free by an imperfect system - people need to accept that?

[BlackTerrel]

Go back and re-read the Zimmerman threads, all 756 of them, I didn't comment on them then and I'm not going to now.

Care to discuss this thread?

I'd like to know more about it. If the guy did it (and so far it appears he did) I support the actions of the guys who beat him.

[BlackTerrel]

You don't know that.

I know that every black person I have ever known who has shot someone the cops either arrested them or beat them up (usually both).


Hell, that uppity ol' OJ Simpson killed himself a white woman and got the same "not guilty" verdict. Was I supposed to riot and rail enternally about that?

If people in that community went after OJ I wouldn't really oppose it. He beat the system - he's still a murderer.

[pcosmar]

If people in that community went after OJ I wouldn't really oppose it. He beat the system - he's still a murderer.

I accept the decision of the jury..


"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"
William Blackstone

The legal system in this country is horribly broken,, but it is the system we have,
Law enforcement is even worse.

I suspect there will be no real justice this side of heaven. But I do think that the law should be (as it once was) in the hands of the people.

And there should be a lot less laws.

[BlackTerrel]

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"
William Blackstone

That's if you believe that the 10 guilty who escape won't go on to hurt more innocents. I'd argue if you let 10 guilty rapists and murderers escape at least some of them will go on to cause more damage. In fact much of the research I've seen on rapists is that they will always rape again - it's something they can't even control.

That quote by Blackstone is an ethical dilemma and I'm of two minds on the topic