Americans leaving U.S. jumps Sixfold!

[mello]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/americans-giving-passports-jump-sixfold-105958873.html

[heavenlyboy34]

Interesting!

[DamianTV]

This number would probably be much higher if more people had the resources to pack up and move to another country.

[Zippyjuan]

Still not a huge amount of the 330 million citizens though.

Expatriates giving up their nationality at U.S. embassies climbed to 1,131 in the three months through June from 189 in the year-earlier period, according to Federal Register figures published today. That brought the first-half total to 1,810 compared with 235 for the whole of 2008.

[Anti Federalist]

Still not a huge amount of the 330 million citizens though.

As always Zip, you look at raw numbers, but lack the imagination to see where this trend is heading.

That's people who have formally renounced their citizenship.

However,


more of the estimated 6 million Americans living overseas are weighing the cost of holding a U.S. passport.

That just a guess, but let's take it at their word; that's 1.8 percent of the US population of 330,000,000.

So let's extrapolate that by the sixfold figure in the article and use that number to determine how many are becoming or liable to become expats, without renouncing citizenship.

1.8 x 6 = 10.8 percent.

10.8 percent of 330,000,000 = 35,640,000

Over 35 MILLION of the best and brightest fleeing the country, every year.

I don't think when the doors were still open, that many people, as a percentage, fled the NAZI regime.

The only way that brain drain will get stopped, is by doing what Ron Paul suggested was going to be done all along with our "border security" apparatus.

Keep us, in.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Remember what Jesse Ventura stated once, "Be careful about building walls around the country, they could be used to keep Americans in.

[Anti Federalist]

Remember what Jesse Ventura stated once, "Be careful about building walls around the country, they could be used to keep Americans in.

Ron and Jesse both got mocked and laughed at for that.

They have ceased laughing.

Even the dimmest wit can perceive what is happening here, now it's denial instead of mockery.

[BlackTerrel]

Compared to about 1.5 million who enter every year

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States

[anaconda]

But what happens when these folks living abroad "renounce" their citizenship? Do they get some form of legal status elsewhere? The article did not address this.

[Zippyjuan]

As always Zip, you look at raw numbers, but lack the imagination to see where this trend is heading.

That's people who have formally renounced their citizenship.

However,



That just a guess, but let's take it at their word; that's 1.8 percent of the US population of 330,000,000.

So let's extrapolate that by the sixfold figure in the article and use that number to determine how many are becoming or liable to become expats, without renouncing citizenship.

1.8 x 6 = 10.8 percent.

10.8 percent of 330,000,000 = 35,640,000

Over 35 MILLION of the best and brightest fleeing the country, every year.

I don't think when the doors were still open, that many people, as a percentage, fled the NAZI regime.

The only way that brain drain will get stopped, is by doing what Ron Paul suggested was going to be done all along with our "border security" apparatus.

Keep us, in.

Not quite sure what your numbers are. Six million is the number of US Citizens living abroad. Not all six million will or are considering giving up their citizenship. The 1,800 of those who decided to give up citienship this year comes to 0.03% of those living abroad. To surrender your citizenship, you must already be abroad and go to a US Embasay or Consulate and turn in your passport and sign papers. There aren't 35 million leaving the country every year. You are assuming six times as many people will decide to move out of the country? There is no indication of that.

[Anti Federalist]

Not quite sure what your numbers are. Six million is the number of US Citizens living abroad. Not all six million will or are considering giving up their citizenship. The 1,800 of those who decided to give up citienship this year comes to 0.03% of those living abroad. To surrender your citizenship, you must already be abroad and go to a US Embasay or Consulate and turn in your passport and sign papers. There aren't 35 million leaving the country every year. You are assuming six times as many people will decide to move out of the country? There is no indication of that.

Yet.

[Zippyjuan]

But what happens when these folks living abroad "renounce" their citizenship? Do they get some form of legal status elsewhere? The article did not address this.

Only if another country offers it to them. They could be stateless and without their passport, unable to go anyplace else.

More info on the process which as I mentioned must be done in a US Embassay or Consulate overseas (you can't do it inside the US):
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html


ELEMENTS OF RENUNCIATION

A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:
1.appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
2.in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
3.sign an oath of renunciation

Renunciations that do not meet the conditions described above have no legal effect. Because of the provisions of Section 349(a)(5), U.S. citizens cannot effectively renounce their citizenship by mail, through an agent, or while in the United States. In fact, U.S. courts have held certain attempts to renounce U.S. citizenship to be ineffective on a variety of grounds, as discussed below.

C. REQUIREMENT - RENOUNCE ALL RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES

A person seeking to renounce U.S. citizenship must renounce all the rights and privileges associated with such citizenships. In the case of Colon v. U.S. Department of State , 2 F.Supp.2d 43 (1998), the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia rejected Colon’s petition for a writ of mandamus directing the Secretary of State to approve a Certificate of Loss of Nationality in the case because he wanted to retain the right to live in the United States while claiming he was not a U.S. citizen.

D. DUAL NATIONALITY / STATELESSNESS

Persons intending to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality, they may be rendered stateless and, thus, lack the protection of any government. They may also have difficulty traveling as they may not be entitled to a passport from any country. Even if not stateless, former U.S. citizens would still be required to obtain a visa to travel to the United States, or show that they are eligible for admission pursuant to the terms of the Visa Waiver Pilot Program (VWPP). Nonetheless, renunciation of U.S. citizenship may not prevent a foreign country from deporting that individual to the United States in some non-citizen status.

E. TAX & MILITARY OBLIGATIONS /NO ESCAPE FROM PROSECUTION

Persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware of the fact that renunciation of U.S. citizenship may have no affect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information). In addition, the act of renouncing U.S. citizenship does not allow persons to avoid possible prosecution for crimes which they may have committed in the United States, or escape the repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in the United States or incurred as United States citizens abroad.

F. RENUNCIATION FOR MINOR CHILDREN/INCOMPETENTS

Citizenship is a status that is personal to the U.S. citizen. Therefore, parents may not renounce the citizenship of their minor children. Similarly, parents/legal guardians may not renounce the citizenship of individuals who are mentally incompetent. Minors seeking to renounce their U.S. citizenship must demonstrate to a consular officer that they are acting voluntarily and that they fully understand the implications/consequences attendant to the renunciation of U.S. citizenship.

G. IRREVOCABILITY OF RENUNCIATION

Finally, those contemplating a renunciation of U.S. citizenship should understand that the act is irrevocable, except as provided in section 351 of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1483), and cannot be canceled or set aside absent successful administrative or judicial appeal. (Section 351(b) of the INA provides that an applicant who renounced his or her U.S. citizenship before the age of eighteen can have that citizenship reinstated if he or she makes that desire known to the Department of State within six months after attaining the age of eighteen. See also Title 22, Code of Federal Regulations, section 50.20).

Renunciation is the most unequivocal way in which a person can manifest an intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Please consider the effects of renouncing U.S. citizenship, described above, before taking this serious and irrevocable action. If you have any further questions regarding this matter, please contact:

[Carson]

This number would probably be much higher if more people had the resources to pack up and move to another country.

Or if there was anywhere to go.

I've heard there are only about four countries left that aren't tied in with the global network of central banks. Iran, North Korea, Cuba and someplace that starts with an "S". And now I suppose Iceland but they aren't evil yet.

[anaconda]

They could be stateless and without their passport, unable to go anyplace else.

The stateless thing seems like it could be a real problem.

[BlackTerrel]

Or if there was anywhere to go.

I've heard there are only about four countries left that aren't tied in with the global network of central banks. Iran, North Korea, Cuba and someplace that starts with an "S". And now I suppose Iceland but they aren't evil yet.

How come every country that isn't tied into central banks has no freedom and it's population is poor?

There are about 1 million Iranians in the US alone. More than 1% of their population. Would be the equivalent if there were 4.5 million Americans in Iran.

[Carson]

Are they now?

Here is one of the last countries taken off of the list.

http://photos.imageevent.com/stokeybob/morestuff/qh3ldAY.jpg

I had a friend I worked with that knew and had been to Libya that couldn't understand the propaganda that was coming out before it was invaded. He mentioned the prosperity there and just didn't get it.

I heard since then that one of the big beefs was their president chose to build a huge water works project for the country but did it with their own cash. The story was the central bankers were really cheesed.



I remember thinking when we did Iraq that maybe if we had redistributed the profits from the oil that were coming in, between every citizen, that people would be to busy building their lives to have much time for fighting. I suppose that would was as foolish as thinking we will ever see anything from our national resources here. We've got lots that is be carted off with only having to pay off a few people.

An account for each person would be nice. Being able to have a say Yea! or Nay! really dang juicy.


Here is another before and after picture but of Iran. Notice how Americanized the before pictures are? I'm not sure which is really better to the people in Iran or Afghanistan. The only thing I am sure of is it's really none of my business. The devastation certainly sucks.

http://www.thinkatheist.com/photo/iran-before-and-after-religion-1?xg_source=activity

[anaconda]

I've heard there are only about four countries left that aren't tied in with the global network of central banks. Iran, North Korea, Cuba and someplace that starts with an "S".

Syriasly?

[BlackTerrel]

I'm not sure I understand... are you arguing that Iran and North Korea do not lack freedom or prosperity?

[Carson]

Syriasly?


I looked. They have Sudan listed.

I've been thinking thinking for years that maybe it's a typo. They are never portrayed as the boogeyman.

Maybe they've got no real resources worth stealing? Maybe they are saving them for last just to go at them for sport?

[anaconda]

I'm not sure I understand... are you arguing that Iran and North Korea do not lack freedom or prosperity?

My take on Carson's comment is that there seems to be a correlation between a nation's banking system and it's likelihood of being the target of western military aggression. Whether that country is rife with civil liberties is not a high priority. Bankers have made gobs of money off of repressive states.

[anaconda]

I looked. They have Sudan listed.
I've been thinking thinking for years that maybe it's a typo. They are never portrayed as the boogeyman.
Maybe they've got no real resources worth stealing? Maybe they are saving them for last just to go at them for sport?

http://news.sudanvisiondaily.com/details.html?rsnpid=207230

The boogeyman is perhaps their human rights violations. Definitely lots of evildoers over there:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-jim-mcgovern/sudan-human-rights_b_3721642.html

[green73]

Still not a huge amount of the 330 million citizens though.

280 million don’t even have a passport.

[Carson]

280 million don’t even have a passport.

About 27 million came here without one.

[Carson]

http://news.sudanvisiondaily.com/details.html?rsnpid=207230

The boogeyman is perhaps their human rights violations. Definitely lots of evildoers over there:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-jim-mcgovern/sudan-human-rights_b_3721642.html


He said the percentage of gold extracted from rock does not exceed 30 percent, indicating that high technology would be introduced to extract gold from sand.

That will be one less thing to worry about.

[Zippyjuan]

About 27 million came here without one.

Maybe in forever. The most recent estimate of people in the US illegally is about 10.3 million- and over 40% of those entered the country legally but overstayed- student visas, tourist visas, work visas....

[Zippyjuan]

280 million don’t even have a passport.

Don't need one if you don't plan on leaving the country. You do need one if you want to surrender your citizenship though.

[Carson]

My take on Carson's comment is that there seems to be a correlation between a nation's banking system and it's likelihood of being the target of western military aggression. Whether that country is rife with civil liberties is not a high priority. Bankers have made gobs of money off of repressive states.

Being ostracized by the rest of the world can really drag a person down in many more ways than just financially also. I've seen many correlations that many psychological effects carry up in to the way countries seem to behave.

Sometimes it might be better to give a neighbor some space to grow. We seem to really do some heavy leaning.

[LibertyEagle]

Here is another before and after picture but of Iran. Notice how Americanized the before pictures are? I'm not sure which is really better to the people in Iran or Afghanistan. The only thing I am sure of is it's really none of my business. The devastation certainly sucks.

http://www.thinkatheist.com/photo/iran-before-and-after-religion-1?xg_source=activity

Photo from "thinkatheist". No, there is no agenda there. :rolleyes:

And there was religion in Iran in the before picture. It just wasn't a theocracy run by radical muslims.

[LibertyEagle]

Maybe in forever. The most recent estimate of people in the US illegally is about 10.3 million- and over 40% of those entered the country legally but overstayed- student visas, tourist visas, work visas....

That's a bullshit number, Zippy, and one they have been using for at least 8 years. Don't you think more have come in that time? Yeah, I think so. I have heard other estimates around 20-25 million.

[Carson]

Maybe in forever. The most recent estimate of people in the US illegally is about 10.3 million- and over 40% of those entered the country legally but overstayed- student visas, tourist visas, work visas....

Exactly!

Several amnesties ago, I'm thinking the Reagan Amnesty they pulled the 1.5 million number out of their somewhere and it turned into about 4.5 million. What you've got to do is triple their 8 or 10 million figures.

What would be the odds they would start telling the truth now?


Numbers USA - Immigration By the Numbers - Part 1 (Video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyTmClBU7nA)

Numbers USA - Immigration By the Numbers - Part 2 of 2 (Video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PpaoZE8oXk)


This is a more modern up to date with the 1 million legal and 1 million illegal numbers.

Roy's 'Jay-Walking' on Capitol Mall reveals real immigration tradition (Video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ9dhqo0LA8&feature=player_embedded]View)

[Carson]

Photo from "thinkatheist". No, there is no agenda there. :rolleyes:

And there was religion in Iran in the before picture. It just wasn't a theocracy run by radical muslims.

Yeah sorry about that link. There are a whole bunch of before and after pictures like those around. I think sailingaway posted several in the, "Bestest Picture Thread EVARRR" (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?132690-Bestest-Picture-Thread-EVARRR&p=5166142#post5166142) thread. Maybe somewhere else. Anyway they are all pretty much the same theme. Westernized and then annihilized.

Sort of give credence to the...what'd they call it in the 60's? OH yeah. Military Industrial Complex.

Can't help wonder if they cashed it shaping it one way and then for kicks slapped it upside of the head and cashed in on shaping it another.

Note; Someone screwed with my home made back-scratcher/ chip puller and they bent it so far out of shape it broke because of material fatigue. I'll bet that's another thing that can be documented in nations.

[Zippyjuan]

That's a bullshit number, Zippy, and one they have been using for at least 8 years. Don't you think more have come in that time? Yeah, I think so. I have heard other estimates around 20-25 million.
This article from 2012 says 11.1 million. Numbers fell by two million after the economic collapse in 2007 and jobs became much harder to find.

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/Politics/illegal-immigration-united-states/story?id=17894215



Dec. 06, 2012

Illegal immigration to the United States has rapidly declined over the past several years, leading to a sigificant drop in the nation's undocumented population.

The number of undocumented immigrants living in the United States fell to an estimated 11.1 million in 2011 from about 12 million in 2007, according to an analysis of Census data released Thursday by the Associated Press. About 80 percent of undocumented immigrants come from Mexico and Latin America.

Hispanic immigration to the country was trumped by the number of immigrants from Asia for the first time since 1910, according to the AP. About 28 percent of foreign-born people in the U.S. are undocumented, while about 31 percent are legal permanent residents with green cards and another 37 percent are naturalized U.S. citizens.


Related story:
http://www.pewresearch.org/daily-number/net-migration-from-mexico-falls-to-zero-and-perhaps-less/


Net Migration from Mexico Falls to Zero — and Perhaps Less
August 6, 2012

The largest wave of immigration in history from a single country to the United States has come to a standstill. After four decades that brought 12 million current immigrants—most of whom came illegally—the net migration flow from Mexico to the United States has stopped and may have reversed.

The net standstill in Mexican-U.S. migration flow is the result of two opposite trend lines that have converged in recent years.

During the five-year period from 2005 to 2010, a total of 1.4 million Mexicans immigrated to the United States, down by more than half from the 3 million who had done so in the five-year period of 1995 to 2000.

Meantime, the number of Mexicans and their children who moved from the U.S. to Mexico between 2005 and 2010 rose to 1.4 million, roughly double the number who had done so in the five-year period a decade before. While it is not possible to say so with certainty, the trend lines within this latest five-year period suggest that return flow to Mexico probably exceeded the inflow from Mexico during the past year or two.

The standstill appears to be the result of many factors, including the weakened U.S. job and housing construction markets, heightened border enforcement, a rise in deportations, the growing dangers associated with illegal border crossings, the long-term decline in Mexico’s birth rates and broader economic conditions in Mexico.

[Mani]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/americans-giving-passports-jump-sixfold-105958873.html

Myself and some of the Americans out here definitely discuss it. A few years ago i never would have never of dreamed of having the discussion.

I still dont want to do it, but at this point it is more an emotional decision because with all the new regulations weighin in the pros and cons....its more of a losing argument to actual keep us citizenship.

[Pericles]

But what happens when these folks living abroad "renounce" their citizenship? Do they get some form of legal status elsewhere? The article did not address this.

You don't. To become a Swiss citizen, legal residence for 14 years is required before you can apply, and then your community votes on whether or not they want to have you as a citizen. The people are sovereign in Switzerland.:)

[BlackTerrel]

My take on Carson's comment is that there seems to be a correlation between a nation's banking system and it's likelihood of being the target of western military aggression. Whether that country is rife with civil liberties is not a high priority. Bankers have made gobs of money off of repressive states.

And yet based on the countries mentioned nations that aren't connected to these central banks grant their citizens very few rights and are poor. So are banks good or bad for the populace?

[VIDEODROME]

But what happens when these folks living abroad "renounce" their citizenship? Do they get some form of legal status elsewhere? The article did not address this.

Many of them are married to someone they met in another country so because of the IRS their joint-filing is a major pain. Their foreign spouse does not want to face the IRS because they married an American.

[Anti Federalist]

You don't. To become a Swiss citizen, legal residence for 14 years is required before you can apply, and then your community votes on whether or not they want to have you as a citizen. The people are sovereign in Switzerland.:)

Most any of the decent places left to live on planet earth are the same way.

[Carson]

I just noticed a thread on this topic at Fark.com (http://www.fark.com/).


Number of taxpayers who renounced U.S. citizenship hits record high. And that's not even counting Edward Snowden


The article is here;

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2013/08/number-of-.html


The comments are here;

http://www.fark.com/comments/7882902/Number-of-taxpayers-who-renounced-US-citizenship-hits-record-high-And-thats-not-even-counting-Edward-Snowden



Comments like this Gem;

"Bunch of quitters. I'm not leaving until I have to sneak out."

[Legend1104]

So...with Snowden....that makes 6.

[satchelmcqueen]

id be gone NOW if i had the money.
This number would probably be much higher if more people had the resources to pack up and move to another country.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Yet.

Yeah, I was thinking that too. Substantial trends often start with a trickle.

I'd say look for this number to increase, perhaps by quite a bit. The U.S. is getting paranoid and desperate for money. Look for task forces and committees to "study" your private retirement account, only to inevitably conclude that they must be taxed more substantially.

People will say enough and go elsewhere. A greedy country that is also handing out free computers and government phones for votes won't last forever.

[Anti Federalist]

F. RENUNCIATION FOR MINOR CHILDREN/INCOMPETENTS

Citizenship is a status that is personal to the U.S. citizen. Therefore, parents may not renounce the citizenship of their minor children. Similarly, parents/legal guardians may not renounce the citizenship of individuals who are mentally incompetent. Minors seeking to renounce their U.S. citizenship must demonstrate to a consular officer that they are acting voluntarily and that they fully understand the implications/consequences attendant to the renunciation of U.S. citizenship.

You can make life or death decisions.

But you can't make that.

The state will not permit its tax cattle to wander off.

[Mani]

That was a disturbing read. Someone put these people in the same sentence as al Qaida.

They kept referring to the benefit of the marines coming to their rescue? Like that's going to happen unless it has some political motivation. The marines don't show up for regular joe shmoes.

And when people brought up the whole, "some places being a US citizen people can't open a bank account" it was ignored By the foul mouth angry people screaming traitor and parasites!

The way so many Americans get downright hostile about not paying taxes..wow. Disturbing



I just noticed a thread on this topic at Fark.com (http://www.fark.com/).


Number of taxpayers who renounced U.S. citizenship hits record high. And that's not even counting Edward Snowden


The article is here;

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2013/08/number-of-.html


The comments are here;

http://www.fark.com/comments/7882902/Number-of-taxpayers-who-renounced-US-citizenship-hits-record-high-And-thats-not-even-counting-Edward-Snowden



Comments like this Gem;

"Bunch of quitters. I'm not leaving until I have to sneak out."

[Kregisen]

As always Zip, you look at raw numbers, but lack the imagination to see where this trend is heading.

That's people who have formally renounced their citizenship.

However,



That just a guess, but let's take it at their word; that's 1.8 percent of the US population of 330,000,000.

So let's extrapolate that by the sixfold figure in the article and use that number to determine how many are becoming or liable to become expats, without renouncing citizenship.

1.8 x 6 = 10.8 percent.

10.8 percent of 330,000,000 = 35,640,000

Over 35 MILLION of the best and brightest fleeing the country, every year.

I don't think when the doors were still open, that many people, as a percentage, fled the NAZI regime.

The only way that brain drain will get stopped, is by doing what Ron Paul suggested was going to be done all along with our "border security" apparatus.

Keep us, in.


I'm guessing statistics wasn't your best class.....because the number of people giving up U.S. citizenship went up 6 times in one year, you are now copying the 6x number to the amount of people who are living abroad?

Using your logic, let's find some other numbers. The amount of people in Pennsylvania getting disability is up 50%. This means, according to your logic, that the amount of people leaving the U.S. is actually going up 50% per year. Within 10 years, the U.S. will be wiped out.




Yet.

You are the biggest conspiracy theorist I have ever seen post. Every single post I have ever seen of yours over the past 3 years has been this exact same stuff. Is all you do with your life making up visions of how you see America in 20 years? It gets old seeing it.