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presence
08-06-2013, 06:29 AM
This Shack:

http://img1-cdn.newser.com/image/944324-0-20130806061324.jpeg
"Looks like I'm gonna be homeless because I have nowhere to go," Newell said

http://www.kltv.com/story/23052553/gunman-kills-2-at-pennsylvania-townhall-meeting


Gunman kills 3 at Pennsylvania town hall meeting

Posted: Aug 05, 2013 9:47 PM EDT Updated: Aug 06, 2013 12:44 AM EDT By RNN Staff - email



(http://RAYCOMGROUP.images.worldnow.com/images/23052553_BG1.jpg)

A gunman killed three during a Board of Supervisors meeting in eastern Pennsylvania Monday. (Source: KYW/CNN)



SAYLORSBURG, PA (RNN) - Police say at least three people were killed in a shooting that took place during a Board of Supervisors meeting in Pennsylvania.


The shooting broke out shortly after 7:30 p.m. EST Monday at the Ross Township building in Saylorsburg, PA, about 75 miles north of Philadelphia.


Two victims died at the scene. The alleged gunman has been identified as Rockne Newell, and police say "he had an ongoing dispute with the township over his property," but said the motive for the shooting was still under investigation.


Police estimate 15-18 people were in the meeting room when he allegedly began firing first through the windows before entering the building.


Chris Reber, a reporter for the Pocono Record, was at the meeting and described the situation (http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130805/NEWS/130809867).


"All I saw was the holes go through the hall. I saw smoke and plaster flying out, blowing out through the walls," he wrote.


After the first round of shooting, the gunman went to his car to get another weapon. However, when he came back into the building, he was tackled by Bernie Kozen, a local official, who took the gun away and allegedly shot the shooter.


"Bernie bearhugged him and took him down.


He shot (the shooter) with his own gun,"

Reber wrote.


The suspected gunman is in custody.




http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130805/NEWS/130809867

August 05, 2013


This first-person account of Monday night's shooting is from Pocono Record reporter Chris Reber as told to his editors, Marta Gouger and Chris Mele. It was written by Mele.
It was my first Ross Township board meeting. I had gone earlier Monday to the township hall to check on the agenda.
The clerk there gave me an earful about how the previous reporter would call the day after the meetings to get caught up, so I decided that, as the new West End reporter, I would show up to Monday's meeting.
There were about 15 people in the rectangular room seated on padded folding chairs.
The thing that got my attention: plaster flying out, blowing out through the walls. Witnesses would later tell me they saw pictures exploding away from the walls.
I heard more than 10 shots.
It was automatic, like a string of firecrackers. That's what everyone said.



There were real heroes here.


People who did not consider their own lives in protecting others.

I crawled out to a hallway and then got outside. There is nothing in reality you can compare it to. It just was not in reality. All I could think was: It wasn't happening to me.
I went outside to the parking lot. There was a girl there calling 911. I was taking cover behind a truck, an SUV. I was about 50 yards away.
The gunman was this guy wearing a blue Hawaiian shirt. I saw him go back out to his car — a silver Impala — and get another gun.
I saw him get something out of his car.
I didn't see blood when I left.
It wasn't real to me until I went back inside and saw people bleeding.




http://kfor.com/2013/08/05/3-dead-several-injured-at-pennsylvania-town-hall-meeting/

McCool said it was “the quietest township in Monroe County.” “They are never in the newspaper,” McCool said. She said she knew of no controversial issues before the supervisors.
“They are the only township in Monroe County that hasn’t had a tax increase in many, many years,” she said.




Multiple after the fact videos:
http://wnep.com/2013/08/05/officials-gunman-opens-fire-during-municipal-meeting-leaves-at-least-2-dead/






UPDATE (background)


Ross Township wins 17-year battle to evict 'eyesore' owner


By Andrew Scott
Pocono Record Writer
August 21, 2012



Rockne Newell has been fighting Ross Township for almost 20 years, refuting the township's view of his Flyte Road property as an "eyesore" filled with "junk."


Now, Monroe County Court has ruled in the township's favor, ordering Newell to vacate his property within less than a month and clean it up within less than two months. The court order, which Newell received a week ago in the mail, says


he can never again live on,
use or occupy the property
unless he gets occupancy and sewage
permits
from the township.


"Looks like I'm gonna be homeless because I have nowhere to go," Newell said, his voice rising in outrage as he walked among tires, cinderblocks, piles of lumber and other items on his unmown property. "Applying for a sewage permit means I have to get a soil test done, which costs $40,000, which I don't have."

Claims 'harassment'

Newell, who's on a property/school tax payment plan with the mortgage paid up, said he lives on Social Security disability payments from a crash injury. He said the township has been harassing him with claims that he has never obtained the proper permits and that he has sewage and "junk" clustered about the property.


Township officials referred all Pocono Record inquiries to their attorney, John Dunn, for this article, but a 2002 article quotes then-township supervisor Butch Kresge as saying Newell shouldn't be allowed to have "junk" on his property since no one else does.


"That's funny because, when I moved here, this property was one of only three on the entire road that didn't have what they call 'junk,'" Newell said, though his property now has the largest amount of visibly cluttered items on Flyte Road.


"I'm a collector from a family of collectors," he said. "I use most of what I collect, like part of a playground slide to pour concrete for cinder blocks and wood to fence my yard from people driving by and throwing beer bottles. This saves me hundreds of dollars. I scrap and sell what I can't use."


The contention began after Newell bought the secluded, wooded property from the previous owner in 1990. According to court papers, Newell got a building permit from the township to have a storage structure on the property, but then built a dwelling without first getting a zoning permit or certificate of occupancy from the township.


Newell said the storage structure and dwelling are the same building. He said the township in the beginning never required him to have an additional permit to use the storage structure also as a dwelling.


"But (in 1995), they took me to court and lied to the judge about how they did tell me I needed another permit," said Newell, who has always represented himself in court.

"They showed (Magisterial District Judge JoLana Krawitz) the permit application form I filled out and signed," he said. "The word 'only' was written next to the word 'storage' so it read 'storage only.' That 'only' wasn't there when I filled out and signed that form."


Krawitz ruled in the township's favor, saying Newell could not use the storage structure as a dwelling without a zoning permit or certificate of occupancy. Newell appealed and went before then-county court judge Peter O'Brien.


"After listening to my side and then taking a look at that permit application form with 'storage only' on it, Judge O'Brien dismissed the case with prejudice," Newell said. "He basically told them to stop harassing me."

No sewage permit

Though the 17-year-old case is no longer on file at county court, Dunn remembers O'Brien's ruling a bit differently.


"What the judge actually ruled was not to proceed any farther with the case unless we could prove Mr. Newell was actually living on the property," Dunn said. "Mr. Newell at the time claimed he wasn't living there, and we were unable to prove otherwise."


As years passed, Newell collected more items, some of which he stores in several trailers on his property.


Another issue arose when county sheriff's deputies responded to a complaint about the property in 2009 and found "buckets of fecal matter stored inside and outside of the residence," according to the court order's findings. Newell said he has used buckets for storing paint, carrying water and other things, but never for storing fecal matter.


As a result of what the sheriff's deputies reportedly found, the township determined Newell was illegally disposing of sewage on his property without having gotten a septic permit to do so. He said he has a composting toilet for any sewage because he cannot afford septic hookup fees, but the township says he needs a permit for that toilet.

Stream work

A third issue arose in November, when county resource conservation specialist Victor Motts responded to a complaint about Newell having dredged a stream on his property and installed a four-feet-wide culvert. Motts works for the county Conservation District, which he said takes interest when any construction on private or public property potentially affects waterways.


Newell had the culvert, supported by two concrete blocks, installed as part of a driveway built over the stream for flooding.

"My foot bridge had gotten washed out in a flood, so I applied for help with (the Federal Emergency Management Agency), who told me I had to replace that bridge with a culvert driveway so emergency vehicles can get over the stream to access my property," he said. "FEMA gave me $5,000, and I hired a contractor to put in the culvert."


Motts told Newell and the township that the culvert violates state Department of Environmental Protection regulations. The township said this also violates its stormwater management ordinance.


"So now, they're telling me to rip out the culvert that FEMA told me to install because I didn't have a permit when I had it put in," Newell said. "First off, FEMA told me I don't need a permit."


Newell cannot recall exactly who at FEMA told him no permit is needed. Nick Morici, external affairs specialist at FEMA's Region 3 office in Philadelphia, said the agency cannot comment on any cases involving pending court action.


"Second, I don't have the money to have the culvert removed," he said. "They're talking about the effect it has on the environment. Won't it have a bigger effect if I rip it back out?"


What led to the July court hearing that has resulted in the current court order is Newell admitting to Motts that he in fact lives on the property, Dunn said. Since the township earlier had been unable to prove this and was thus forced to drop its case, Newell's admission gave the township its most important ammunition against him, Dunn said.


"This is absolute (b.s.), but there's nothing I can do about it," Newell said, shrugging his shoulders. "They're kicking me off my property. It would be great if I could get some help getting my stuff off the property, because I don't have the money for dumpsters."


Newell asks anyone who can help him to contact him at 570-856-5518.






Motive in Town Meeting Shooting: This Shack Police say Rockne Newell had been in long-running fight with township


http://img1-cdn.newser.com/getimage.aspx?mediaid=758872&width=40&height=40&crop=Y
By Kate Seamons (http://www.newser.com/user/1737/1/kate-seamons.html), Newser Staff


Posted Aug 6, 2013 6:53 AM CDT



STORY (http://www.newser.com/story/172112/motive-in-town-meeting-shooting-this-shack.html)
http://img1-cdn.newser.com/images/comment_tab_icon.gif COMMENTS (8) (http://www.newser.com/story/comments/172112/motive-in-town-meeting-shooting-this-shack.html)


http://img1-cdn.newser.com/images/embed2.png

(Newser) – The gunman in last night's deadly town meeting shooting (http://www.newser.com/story/172086/2-killed-3-injured-at-town-meeting-shooting.html) in Pennsylvania has been IDed by police as Rockne Newell. It's a well-known name to local officials, who the Pocono Record (http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130806/NEWS/308060316) reports have been embroiled in a "long-simmering feud" with Newell over his junk-strewn property for some 18 years. The paper cites its previous articles as background: human feces were found on Newell's land in 2009; he built a "dwelling" on the land without getting the proper permits from the township; railroad ties and trash litter his yard; and township supervisors in February 2012 voted to take legal action against Newell for violating zoning and sewer regulations.
He was ordered to vacate in August 2012, and had reportedly been living in his car and in vacant buildings since. Newell himself complained to the Record in June, saying, "If I lose this property, I have nowhere else to go. What they're doing to me, what they've been doing to me for so long, it's wrong." The AP (http://www.newser.com/article/da80di782/3-killed-in-pa-shooting-linked-to-feud-with-town.html) adds that Newell told officials the $600 monthly Social Security payments that sustained him couldn't pay to clean his property, which is located just a short drive from the Ross Township municipal meeting where he allegedly opened fire, killing three (http://www.newser.com/story/172086/2-killed-3-injured-at-town-meeting-shooting.html). Witnesses say Newell emptied his gun before returning to his car to get a second weapon; they say he was ultimately tackled and shot in the leg with his own gun. Less »




photos at source;

http://www.newser.com/story/172112/motive-in-town-meeting-shooting-this-shack.html

kathy88
08-06-2013, 06:35 AM
he had an ongoing dispute with the township over his property

hmmm...

presence
08-06-2013, 06:36 AM
//nm

tod evans
08-06-2013, 06:40 AM
Gunman kills three at Ross Township meeting

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130806/NEWS/308060316

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=PR&Date=20130806&Category=NEWS&ArtNo=308060316&Ref=AR&maxH=230&maxW=370&border=0&Q=80
By Chris Reber
also by Andrew Scott
Pocono Record Writers
August 06, 2013
Three people died Monday night when a gunman opened fire on a Ross Township municipal meeting, indiscriminately shooting into the building, authorities said.

Eyewitnesses at the scene and state police identified the gunman as Rockne Newell, a self-proclaimed junk collector who has had a long-simmering feud with the township for keeping a junkyard on his property.

RELATED PHOTO GALLERIES

More
Monday night state police were seeking a search warrant from a district judge for Newell's property, according to Trooper First Class Michael Sniscak.

As of 11 p.m., however, there was a delay in returning to his property, authorities said. Fearful that his property might be booby-trapped, police said that they might bring in bomb-sniffing dogs as a precaution.

A meeting attendee tackled Newell, who was shot with his own gun, according to witnesses.

Pocono Record reporter Chris Reber, who was attending a Ross Township meeting for the first time, described hearing at least 10 shots. He described plaster flying out, blowing out through the walls. Witnesses would later tell him they saw pictures exploding away from the wall.

Resident Betty Broad said, "First we jumped up. Patricia was pushing on me. I was starting to turn to see what was going on when someone took the big round table and protected us. Nothing can prepare you "»"

Secretary Treasurer Doris Price said, "No one wanted to move. Everyone was hiding."

Reber, who had escaped the meeting room to take cover behind an SUV in the parking lot, said the gunman emptied his first weapon and that he saw the gunman go to his car to retrieve a second weapon.

Police said Monday night that Newell had two weapons.

Newell was outside, firing into the meeting room, where about 15 people had gathered.

"I had view of Rockne coming in. I saw Bernie (Kozen) struggling with him. Bernie got the gun and shot him in the leg twice," Ross Township Supervisor Tina Drake said.

West End Park and Open Space Commission Executive Director Bernie Kozen was sitting on the side of the room.

He described his actions to subdue the shooter: "When he came back in, he didn't see me. I guess he was hellbent on "»"

His voice trailed off.

"I was working on Dave Fleetwood and he walked by me into the meeting room, I guess to shoot more people," Kozen said. "That's when I came up behind him and wrestled the gun from him with the help of Mr. Kresh."

Drake said Kresh helped to hold the shooter down. She said she was behind Solicitor John Dunn, two women and three men.

Cleoria Campodonico was also at the meeting.

"I'll never get those images out of my head. Those poor, innocent people," she said. "David Fleetwood pushed me out of the way and got shot twice in the belly."

Township supervisor Howard Beers' daughter, Alissa Rutt, got a call from her dad.
He said, "Just listen to what I have to say. No matter what you hear, I'm ok."

She then called her sister, who was on her way to the scene. Her girlfriends had gotten news alerts on their cell phones. She spotted her dad and was allowed past the barricade. They hugged each other.

The identities of the victims was not available at 11 p.m. Monroe County Coroner Bob Allen described the fatalities as three men. Two were dead on the scene and one died after being taken by a medical helicopter, Allen said.

One remained in surgery at 11:30 p.m., according to state police.

The man identified by witnesses and police as the gunman — Rockne Newell — has had a long-running feud with the township.

He got a building permit from the township to have a storage structure on the property, but then built a dwelling without first getting a zoning permit or certificate of occupancy from the township.

Over the years, authorities have responded to Newell's property as a result of neighbor complaints and on one occasion in 2009 found human fecal matter in buckets there, according to previous reports in the Pocono Record. The township determined he was improperly disposing of sewage with no septic system or permit for one.

In a previous article, Newell said he couldn't afford septic hookup fees.

"If I lose this property, I have nowhere else to go," Newell told the Pocono Record in June. "What they're doing to me, what they've been doing to me for so long, it's wrong."

The outbreak of violence in this West End Monroe County community stands in stark contrast to its quiet, rural character. The meeting was winding down at 7:23 p.m. when the shooting broke out.

Witnesses described a scene of carnage and chaos following the shooting at the Anchorage Road building.

"There were real heroes here," Reber said. "People who did not consider their own lives in protecting others."

Origanalist
08-06-2013, 06:43 AM
I was looking for a "reason" which article did you pull that from?

It's in your post.

pcosmar
08-06-2013, 06:51 AM
From last October.

https://www.giveforward.com/fundraiser/97c1/saverocknehome


I need to clean up & I need a lawyer,I have no place to go and my 2 rescue dogs will be put to sleep because no one else will take them

Ross township took me to court & the court ruled that I have to vacate my home of 20 years & remove the bridge that FEMA gave me $5000 to put in as well as clean up my land I live on SSI which comes to $600 a month I have no money to clean up & it is insane to make me remove a bridge that FEMA gave the money to put in! I have no place to go I need a Lawyer but have no money!

kathy88
08-06-2013, 07:41 AM
I was looking for a "reason" which article did you pull that from?

P I think you're losing it I quoted it directly from what you cut and pasted :) LOL.

Darguth
08-06-2013, 07:54 AM
When government pushes people to their limit, it's unsurprising that they push back. Though this would have been more poignant had he defended his property from armed thugs rather than shooting up a room full of unarmed people.

tod evans
08-06-2013, 08:00 AM
When government pushes people to their limit, it's unsurprising that they push back. Though this would have been more poignant had he defended his property from armed thugs rather than shooting up a room full of unarmed people.

It sounds to me as though this dude used the same exact tactics police do, he waited until all the "suspects" were together and ambushed them.

I fail to see any benefit of trying to make a stand on his own property, he'd determined who had committed the offences and lacking access to an equitable court of justice he chose to totally avoid dealing with the "Just-Us" system.

Darguth
08-06-2013, 08:21 AM
I fail to see any benefit of trying to make a stand on his own property, he'd determined who had committed the offences and lacking access to an equitable court of justice he chose to totally avoid dealing with the "Just-Us" system.

Because in any event he was a dead man. He was either going to die assaulting people, die defending his property, or rot away in jail. If you get to the point you're contemplating a mass shooting I think you'd realize those are your only options. The state will not let you win and walk away and your chances of "getting away with it" are basically null.

Personally, if I knew I were to die, I'd be concerned with my legacy and try to turn my death into a positive impact for others. By defending his property against armed thugs he would gain much more public sympathy for his death than he will for having assaulted people.

Also, it does not appear he did what police do. They come in with overwhelming force with prearranged tactics and recon of their target. By all appearances he just started shooting at a building.

By defending his own property he could have prepared fortifications, created booby traps, and created tactical plans for defense. Also, any casualties would have been government enforcers and not, perhaps, innocent bystanders.

pcosmar
08-06-2013, 08:32 AM
Am reminded of this,, Different details, Same motivation.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZbG9i1oGPA

jclay2
08-06-2013, 08:42 AM
Am reminded of this,, Different details, Same motivation.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZbG9i1oGPA

+ rep for a good memory.

angelatc
08-06-2013, 08:50 AM
When government pushes people to their limit, it's unsurprising that they push back. Though this would have been more poignant had he defended his property from armed thugs rather than shooting up a room full of unarmed people.

Those people are armed with force of the government.

presence
08-06-2013, 09:02 AM
OP UPDATED

moostraks
08-06-2013, 09:14 AM
Those people are armed with force of the government.
Well said. It is the people in the room who evicted him and so he targeted the responsible party in his opinion rather than the sheriff's deputies who are serving the papers drafted by the responsible parties who hide behind the guys with guns.

tod evans
08-06-2013, 09:23 AM
It sounds to me as though this dude used the same exact tactics police do, he waited until all the "suspects" were together and ambushed them.

I fail to see any benefit of trying to make a stand on his own property, he'd determined who had committed the offences and lacking access to an equitable court of justice he chose to totally avoid dealing with the "Just-Us" system.



Also, it does not appear he did what police do. They come in with overwhelming force with prearranged tactics and recon of their target. By all appearances he just started shooting at a building.

By defending his own property he could have prepared fortifications, created booby traps, and created tactical plans for defense. Also, any casualties would have been government enforcers and not, perhaps, innocent bystanders.




Well said. It is the people in the room who evicted him and so he targeted the responsible party in his opinion rather than the sheriff's deputies who are serving the papers drafted by the responsible parties who hide behind the guys with guns.

MT has done a much better job than I did....:o

limequat
08-06-2013, 09:24 AM
Ballad of Carl Drega
by Vin Suprynowicz
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ballad+of+carl+drega
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51G5DNP18HL.jpg

TonySutton
08-06-2013, 09:25 AM
Because in any event he was a dead man. He was either going to die assaulting people, die defending his property, or rot away in jail. If you get to the point you're contemplating a mass shooting I think you'd realize those are your only options. The state will not let you win and walk away and your chances of "getting away with it" are basically null.

Personally, if I knew I were to die, I'd be concerned with my legacy and try to turn my death into a positive impact for others. By defending his property against armed thugs he would gain much more public sympathy for his death than he will for having assaulted people.

Also, it does not appear he did what police do. They come in with overwhelming force with prearranged tactics and recon of their target. By all appearances he just started shooting at a building.

By defending his own property he could have prepared fortifications, created booby traps, and created tactical plans for defense. Also, any casualties would have been government enforcers and not, perhaps, innocent bystanders.

But this would have put him against the police. From reading the article I doubt this man was fighting against the government so he would have little reason to take out his anger on the police. He felt he was under attack from certain people within the local government and he went directly to the source to take out his anger. Now the other members and future members in this community realize if they screw with someone too much there could be blow back.

Philhelm
08-06-2013, 09:25 AM
Blowback.

Darguth
08-06-2013, 09:30 AM
Those people are armed with force of the government.

It was a town hall meeting but that doesn't mean everyone there exercises the force of government. There could have been protesting anarchists there or maybe a pacifist simply trying to inform themselves on local happenings, he didn't know that.

If he was, as some here seem to purport, attempting to target specific individuals he felt were transgressing against him then he should have actually targeted those specific individuals. He didn't, by the accounts in the articles above. He just was shooting into a room of people, many of whom he likely did not know and which were in no direct way linked to any injustices against him.

pcosmar
08-06-2013, 09:36 AM
It was a town hall meeting but that doesn't mean everyone there exercises the force of government. There could have been protesting anarchists there or maybe a pacifist simply trying to inform themselves on local happenings, he didn't know that.

If he was, as some here seem to purport, attempting to target specific individuals he felt were transgressing against him then he should have actually targeted those specific individuals. He didn't, by the accounts in the articles above. He just was shooting into a room of people, many of whom he likely did not know and which were in no direct way linked to any injustices against him.

Well they are not (as yet) identifying the targets of his rage.

I am hoping that he hit those that were responsible for his troubles and not some random bystanders.
But that is yet unknown.

Government should rightfully fear the people.

limequat
08-06-2013, 09:39 AM
It was a town hall meeting but that doesn't mean everyone there exercises the force of government. There could have been protesting anarchists there or maybe a pacifist simply trying to inform themselves on local happenings, he didn't know that.

If he was, as some here seem to purport, attempting to target specific individuals he felt were transgressing against him then he should have actually targeted those specific individuals. He didn't, by the accounts in the articles above. He just was shooting into a room of people, many of whom he likely did not know and which were in no direct way linked to any injustices against him.

The guy that tackled/shot him said that he had walked past him. Sounds like it was targeted after the first several shots.

Darguth
08-06-2013, 09:42 AM
The guy that tackled/shot him said that he had walked past him. Sounds like it was targeted after the first several shots.

He could have walked past him for multiple reasons, this hardly is conclusive proof he had targets in mind. The fact, however, that he started shooting before he was even in the building to me indicates that he was not overly concerned with the safety of bystanders when trying to take out any particular targets, at the very least.

If this was a justified "preemptive strike" as some here are implying, then for it to be justified one has to do their utmost to not harm innocent bystanders. Not doing so is a similarly egregious violation of the NAP as what the township was doing to him.

presence
08-06-2013, 09:45 AM
This happened not far from Fethullah Gulen:




From his fortess headquarters, located on 28 acres at 1857 Mt. Eaton Road in Saylorsburg, Pennsylvania, Gulen plots the overthrow of secular governments and oversees the spread of education jihad throughout Asia, Europe, and the United States.

Gulen is surrounded by an army of over 100 Turkish Islamists, who guard him and tend to his needs. The army is comprised of armed militants who wear suits and ties and do not look like traditional Islamists in cloaks and turbans. They follow their hocaefendi's (master lord’s) orders and even refrain from marrying until age 50 per his instructions. When they do marry, their spouses are expected to dress in the Islamic manner, as dictated by Gulen himself.

The Saylorsburg property consists of a massive chalet surrounded by numerous out buildings, including recreational centers, dormitories, cabins for visiting foreign dignitaries, a helicopter pad, and firing ranges.


Read more: http://familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.5921/pub_detail.asp#ixzz2bCjKUKmz

http://www.gulenmovement.us/fethullah-gulen/who-is-fethullah-gulen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethullah_Gulen

AuH20
08-06-2013, 09:49 AM
Did he at least kill those that screwed him over?

angelatc
08-06-2013, 09:50 AM
The people there turning a blind eye to what the Council was doing to the eccentric junk guy were complicit.

presence
08-06-2013, 09:56 AM
The people there turning a blind eye to what the Council was doing to the eccentric junk guy were complicit.


Perhaps but these town "board of supervisor" meetings are usually open to the public.

pcosmar
08-06-2013, 09:57 AM
Did he at least kill those that screwed him over?

As yet unknown.. Names (and related history) have not been released.

tod evans
08-06-2013, 09:58 AM
I'd be interested in hearing both sides to this story....

AuH20
08-06-2013, 09:59 AM
"I'll never get those images out of my head. Those poor, innocent people," she said. "David Fleetwood pushed me out of the way and got shot twice in the belly."

ROFL. Poor innocent people? They destroyed the guy's life over some minor code violations, when it wasn't like he was enriching uranium on his premises.

pcosmar
08-06-2013, 09:59 AM
Perhaps but these town "board of supervisor" meetings are usually open to the public.

I have been to such meetings,, where the overwhelming voice of the people was completely ignored.

ronpaulfollower999
08-06-2013, 10:01 AM
What an asshole.

You don't go defending your property by shooting at a room full of innocent people.

Darguth
08-06-2013, 10:02 AM
The people there turning a blind eye to what the Council was doing to the eccentric junk guy were complicit.

No, I'm sorry but justified use of lethal force in self-defense does not rationally extend that far. By that rationale any person whose ever been compelled to pay taxes or a parking ticket could shoot up a mall because it could be assumed they were all complicit in the apparatus of the state.

pcosmar
08-06-2013, 10:04 AM
What an asshole.

You don't go defending your property by shooting at a room full of innocent people.

There is no proof they were innocent.
I am honestly hoping that no innocent bystanders were hurt,, and that only those guilty of fucking with him were killed.

AuH20
08-06-2013, 10:06 AM
No, I'm sorry but justified use of lethal force in self-defense does not rationally extend that far. By that rationale any person whose ever been compelled to pay taxes or a parking ticket could shoot up a mall because it could be assumed they were all complicit in the apparatus of the state.

However, if these 3 individuals knowingly used the force of the system to confiscate this man's land, then I have little sympathy for them. Live by the sword, die by the sword. However, we don't know if innocent bystanders not affiliated with the quarrel got shot.

pcosmar
08-06-2013, 10:07 AM
I also have to question how someone is considered a "hero" for shooting an unarmed man.

Stopping him,,yeah. disarming him,, yeah..
Shooting him after he is disarmed,, NO.

tod evans
08-06-2013, 10:09 AM
No, I'm sorry but justified use of lethal force in self-defense does not rationally extend that far.

You fail to recognize that this fellow obviously doesn't subscribe to your NAP or your idea of justifiable use of force.

What little I've gleaned from this thread leads me to believe the guy tried everything in his power to peacefully resolve the conundrum he found himself in and was unsuccessful.

Apparently he wasn't good with laying down and submitting to others ideas of how he should live.

Darguth
08-06-2013, 10:40 AM
You fail to recognize that this fellow obviously doesn't subscribe to your NAP or your idea of justifiable use of force.

Whether one subscribes to the NAP or a justified force theory has no bearing on whether or not he was right or wrong in the use of force. The people that ordered the invasion of Iraq clearly did not follow the NAP, that doesn't justify their actions.

limequat
08-06-2013, 11:11 AM
I also have to question how someone is considered a "hero" for shooting an unarmed man.

Stopping him,,yeah. disarming him,, yeah..
Shooting him after he is disarmed,, NO.

shot him twice in fact.

tod evans
08-06-2013, 11:45 AM
Whether one subscribes to the NAP or a justified force theory has no bearing on whether or not he was right or wrong in the use of force. The people that ordered the invasion of Iraq clearly did not follow the NAP, that doesn't justify their actions.

I'm not attempting to justify or condemn this fellow.

I don't have enough information to do either.

However, I do understand his frustration dealing with government, even local government.

Lucille
08-06-2013, 12:29 PM
"When people lose everything and they have nothing left to lose, they lose it."
--Gerald Celente

69360
08-06-2013, 03:28 PM
They should have just left the old guy alone and everyone would have lived. He wasn't hurting anyone until they pushed him too far.


If they tried this with people who have junk in the yard or "illegal" housing around here it would be shootout at the ok corral at every meeting.

People need to mind their own business.

LibForestPaul
08-06-2013, 09:03 PM
What an asshole.

You don't go defending your property by shooting at a room full of innocent people.

I disagree. Only pain educates TBTB. If a party was injured by this mans action regarding his "misuse" of his property, they should have brought suit and a jury of his peers could have held him accountable. No, not in this lawless country. They will learn slowly.

nobody's_hero
08-06-2013, 09:07 PM
A lesson in why you don't fuck with people who have nothing left to lose. Sad outcome, but a lesson nonetheless.

moostraks
08-07-2013, 06:46 AM
MT has done a much better job than I did....:o:) Thank you...

moostraks
08-07-2013, 06:57 AM
He could have walked past him for multiple reasons, this hardly is conclusive proof he had targets in mind. The fact, however, that he started shooting before he was even in the building to me indicates that he was not overly concerned with the safety of bystanders when trying to take out any particular targets, at the very least.

If this was a justified "preemptive strike" as some here are implying, then for it to be justified one has to do their utmost to not harm innocent bystanders. Not doing so is a similarly egregious violation of the NAP as what the township was doing to him.

You are thinking logically without the cloud of duress that this man had been living under to cause him to respond so drastically. It isn't necessarily completely justified (considering the potential for innocent bystanders also being in attendance) so much as understandable why he chose to target the meeting vs standing his ground on his property.

Pericles
08-07-2013, 10:18 AM
I disagree. Only pain educates TBTB. If a party was injured by this mans action regarding his "misuse" of his property, they should have brought suit and a jury of his peers could have held him accountable. No, not in this lawless country. They will learn slowly.

The idea of eliminating the middleman from the transaction is a sound one. I may quibble with the method in which this plan was carried out, but targeting the decision makers is an effective tool.

limequat
08-07-2013, 12:12 PM
I wonder how many of those people will continue to harass people?

pcosmar
08-07-2013, 12:15 PM
I wonder how many of those people will continue to harass people?

One won't,,

perhaps others will think twice.

Pericles
08-07-2013, 12:19 PM
One won't,,

perhaps others will think twice.

Like the OKC bombing - it stopped the ATF raids for almost 20 years.

tod evans
08-07-2013, 12:21 PM
Like the OKC bombing - it stopped the ATF raids for almost 20 years.

The stupid SOB's didn't stay "learnt" though.......:mad:

Pericles
08-07-2013, 12:26 PM
The stupid SOB's didn't stay "learnt" though.......:mad:

And the loss of life of those who took no part in ATF raids was a stain that stays with the liberty movement to this day.

pcosmar
08-07-2013, 12:30 PM
Like the OKC bombing - it stopped the ATF raids for almost 20 years.

No it didn't.
and that was a government Op from start to finish that only consolidated their power.

Not even remotely related.

Pericles
08-07-2013, 12:37 PM
No it didn't.
and that was a government Op from start to finish that only consolidated their power.

Not even remotely related.

I don't think it came off exactly the way the FBI and SPLC envisioned it ...

pcosmar
08-07-2013, 12:55 PM
I don't think it came off exactly the way the FBI and SPLC envisioned it ...

It drove the growing Patriot Movement underground for years. Leaders were hunted and killed.
The FBI and ATF increased their power and resources. Militias were infiltrated and compromised nationwide.
Publicly slandered and became socially unacceptable.

McVeigh (a soldier and "true believer") was the fall guy and the investigation ended.
The SPLC is now a defacto government agency

I don't see how it was anything but a win for authoritarians.

mosquitobite
08-07-2013, 01:01 PM
Poor guy at least has a roof over his head and 3 meals a day now.

jdmyprez_deo_vindice
08-07-2013, 01:03 PM
Looks like a bunch of people learned about "blowback".

osan
08-07-2013, 01:17 PM
Once again the "state" pushes a man beyond endurance and he predictably reacts.

Next up: media paints him as sick and evil, never raising the questions that any nominal idiot would ask off the bat.

Lovely.

thoughtomator
08-07-2013, 01:31 PM
For "his property" there sure is a lot of public money involved. How many people do you know who get FEMA grants for their private property - especially among the ranks of those who just want to be left alone? Something is really odd about this and I have a feeling there is more to the background story that is material to the matter.

osan
08-07-2013, 01:39 PM
...Rockne Newell, a self-proclaimed junk collector who has had a long-simmering feud with the township for keeping a junkyard on his property.

Note how almost cleverly the author puts onus on the shooter for the "feud". The township didn't have a feud with him, but he with them. No doubt the characterization from the other standpoint would have run along the line of the township discharging its duties or even obligations to "the people". The rot is now so hopelessly ingrained in these people's minds I do not believe they have the awareness required to qualify their words as having been crafted with malicious intent. These poor dumb bastards just have no clue. In their minds, government == right and anyone in disagreement == feuding with government.



As of 11 p.m., however, there was a delay in returning to his property, authorities said. Fearful that his property might be booby-trapped, police said that they might bring in bomb-sniffing dogs as a precaution.

See what I mean? The setup to convict without ever questioning the actions of "the state" is already well under weigh. They will crucify this guy (he may even deserve it) but not word one will ever be raised about what they did to prompt his actions. The tacit message and assumption there is that the state is never wrong, that the local boards always act correctly and righteously by definition, which may actually be the worst of it.



"I'll never get those images out of my head. Those poor, innocent people," she said.

Were they? Who were these people? Were they on this board or just attendees?


He got a building permit from the township to have a storage structure on the property, but then built a dwelling without first getting a zoning permit or certificate of occupancy from the township.

Silly me for thinking a man needs no permit to dispose of his property as he sees fit. Yet most will view him as evil because he failed to get permission from people who hold no inherent authority to give or withhold such. How lost are the vast oceans of humanity, those waters so hopelessly polluted with poisons deadly and eternal.

Civil war may be the only solution. Imagine what that REALLY means - what it says about the pathetic and wretched state into which the people of this land have fallen. I don't think I can quite wrap my head completely around it.

Perhaps we need more gun laws. What do you all say?

osan
08-07-2013, 01:48 PM
Personally, if I knew I were to die, I'd be concerned with my legacy and try to turn my death into a positive impact for others.

Maybe. You don't really know because you are not staring down the barrels of that particular goose gun.

Years of stress and fading hope for anything better will put people into a place they did not grow up as children wishing to go. Not that many people grow up wanting to be prostitutes and IV drug users, yet plenty end up that way.

Until you walk a mile or fifty in his shoes I might respectfully recommend you refrain from being too certain about what you would do were you to find yourself in his size 10s.

tod evans
08-07-2013, 03:39 PM
Perhaps we need more gun laws. What do you all say?

People compensated with my tax-dollars do not have my permission to bring weapons to bare against the citizenry for any reason.

I say repeal all laws and ordinances that permit government employees to bare or brandish personal weapons while performing duties for the government within the US borders, and immediately sell all state owned weapons to private citizens.

Pericles
08-07-2013, 04:03 PM
It drove the growing Patriot Movement underground for years. Leaders were hunted and killed.
The FBI and ATF increased their power and resources. Militias were infiltrated and compromised nationwide.
Publicly slandered and became socially unacceptable.

McVeigh (a soldier and "true believer") was the fall guy and the investigation ended.
The SPLC is now a defacto government agency

I don't see how it was anything but a win for authoritarians.

I certainly have to agree with that.

Pericles
08-07-2013, 04:06 PM
Note how almost cleverly the author puts onus on the shooter for the "feud". The township didn't have a feud with him, but he with them. No doubt the characterization from the other standpoint would have run along the line of the township discharging its duties or even obligations to "the people". The rot is now so hopelessly ingrained in these people's minds I do not believe they have the awareness required to qualify their words as having been crafted with malicious intent. These poor dumb bastards just have no clue. In their minds, government == right and anyone in disagreement == feuding with government.




See what I mean? The setup to convict without ever questioning the actions of "the state" is already well under weigh. They will crucify this guy (he may even deserve it) but not word one will ever be raised about what they did to prompt his actions. The tacit message and assumption there is that the state is never wrong, that the local boards always act correctly and righteously by definition, which may actually be the worst of it.




Were they? Who were these people? Were they on this board or just attendees?



Silly me for thinking a man needs no permit to dispose of his property as he sees fit. Yet most will view him as evil because he failed to get permission from people who hold no inherent authority to give or withhold such. How lost are the vast oceans of humanity, those waters so hopelessly polluted with poisons deadly and eternal.

Civil war may be the only solution. Imagine what that REALLY means - what it says about the pathetic and wretched state into which the people of this land have fallen. I don't think I can quite wrap my head completely around it.

Perhaps we need more gun laws. What do you all say?

I'd say you summed up the situation very well. If Newell had been killed, this could have been wrapped up in one neat little package and filed away.

asurfaholic
08-07-2013, 04:15 PM
I let this one simmer in my head for a couple days.

I am not sure how I felt about his tactics, there could have been little children in there. That said, I guess he planned to knock the township off where it hurt, right in the council meeting, and this may have been his only real option. Im feeling like giving him a kudos for standing up for his rights. Sounds like the township drove him to this, so they are really to blame for this.

osan
08-07-2013, 05:04 PM
IIf Newell had been killed...

The day isn't over. Nothing surprises me anymore.

Pericles
08-07-2013, 05:07 PM
The day isn't over. Nothing surprises me anymore.

On "suicide" watch, no doubt.

osan
08-07-2013, 05:15 PM
No it didn't.
and that was a government Op from start to finish that only consolidated their power.

Not even remotely related.

As tin-hat as it sounds, I believe you are dead on the money. Opinion was swinging against these rotten organizations, particularly in the wake of Ruby Ridge and Waco. They needed a kicker-dose of compliance generating action and they got it. All of a sudden they were the ones to which the nation turned its terror-filled eyes. Joe Mean is perfectly faithful in his eternal stupidity. Theye know it. Theye bank on it. It works every time no matter how many times the same predictable trick is pulled. Joe Mean is despicable - hate-worthy even. His will to imbecility almost rightly renders him fair game for men who choose to use their brains properly. On the frabjous day, the day of harvesting, Joey Mean will have no tear of mine as he and his progeny are consumed in the flames of reckoning. Maybe I am wrong for feeling this way, but I will not alter my position without proper and sufficient cause. As of this writing, I see no such cause anywhere in the observable or imaginable universes.

osan
08-07-2013, 05:16 PM
On "suicide" watch, no doubt.

And when they find him hanging from a knotted sheet we will be astonished to find that the surveillance cameras mysteriously malfunctioned. The dead man tells no tale. Move along - nothing to see here.

Anti Federalist
08-07-2013, 09:36 PM
I passed out a gazillion rep points in this thread.

Glad to see that so many still have their heads screwed on straight.

Already mentioned but:

Carl Drega.

That is all.

Scrapmo
08-07-2013, 11:45 PM
"Jeremy spoke in class today..."

Anti Federalist
12-21-2014, 01:32 PM
So, which is it:

Anti government white radicals?

Communists?

Black panthers?

Jihadists?

Or could it possibly be that people across all racial and political lines, are sick and tired of being bullied, pushed around, ordered about, raided, beaten, jailed and killed by cops that have declared a "War on Us"?