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eduardo89
08-01-2013, 05:29 PM
Judge sentences Cleveland kidnapper Ariel Castro to life, plus 1,000 years (http://us.cnn.com/2013/08/01/justice/ohio-castro/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)


When her chance came, kidnapping victim Michelle Knight lit into Ariel Castro, the man who held her captive and raped her in his Cleveland home for a decade.

"You took 11 years of my life away," she said. "I spent 11 years in hell. Now, your hell is just beginning."
In handing down a sentence of life without parole plus 1,000 years in prison, Judge Michael Russo told the kidnapper there was no place in the world for his brand of criminal.

"You don't deserve to be out in our community," Russo told the defendant. "You're too dangerous."

Castro pleaded guilty last week to 937 counts, including murder and kidnapping, in exchange for the death penalty being taken off the table. The charges stem from his kidnapping, rape and assault of three women: Knight, abducted in 2002; Georgina DeJesus, abducted in 2004; and Amanda Berry; abducted in 2003.

Castro is the father of Berry's 6-year-old girl, DNA tests have confirmed.

All three women kept diaries with Castro's permission, providing many of the details of their abuse.

Continue Reading: http://us.cnn.com/2013/08/01/justice/ohio-castro/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

He should have been sentenced to death.

CPUd
08-01-2013, 05:32 PM
What he got was worse than death. They will have to keep him in solitary for the rest of his life.

Tod
08-01-2013, 05:43 PM
Am I the only one who thinks these sentences that are far longer than anyone ever lives just serve to make the judicial system look like morons? Why not just sentence someone to be imprisoned until death?

angelatc
08-01-2013, 05:45 PM
Am I the only one who thinks these sentences that are far longer than anyone ever lives just serve to make the judicial system look like morons? Why not just sentence someone to be imprisoned until death?

Because that would leave him eligible for parole.

angelatc
08-01-2013, 05:50 PM
That video makes me cry.

Theocrat
08-01-2013, 05:56 PM
Judge sentences Cleveland kidnapper Ariel Castro to life, plus 1,000 years (http://us.cnn.com/2013/08/01/justice/ohio-castro/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)



He should have been sentenced to death.

I agree with you, Ed. Instead of giving him the penalty in which he deserved (based on Exodus 21:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:16&version=KJV)), now he's going to be "rewarded" with "three hots and a cot" for the rest of his life (at the taxpayers' expense)? That is not justice at all.

JK/SEA
08-01-2013, 05:58 PM
Am I the only one who thinks these sentences that are far longer than anyone ever lives just serve to make the judicial system look like morons? Why not just sentence someone to be imprisoned until death?

whatever happened to life with no parole?...1,000 years tacked on is something i'd expect from that movie 'idiocracy'....i'm not getting it. It does make the point though that the State is capable of being 'badder' than you. Very childish.

RCA
08-01-2013, 06:00 PM
I agree with you, Ed. Instead of giving him the penalty in which he deserved (based on Exodus 21:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:16&version=KJV)), now he's going to be "rewarded" with "three hots and a cot" for the rest of his life (at the taxpayers' expense)? That is not justice at all.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9tKpyii1OI

Theocrat
08-01-2013, 06:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9tKpyii1OI

Excuse me, RCA, but Stefan Molyneux is not a reliable person to source as an authority on what "true Christianity" is. So that video is laughable, at best, and ignorant, at worst.

Besides that, your post is not germane to the thread, so now we have a logical fallacy of a red herring committed on your part.

JK/SEA
08-01-2013, 06:05 PM
I agree with you, Ed. Instead of giving him the penalty in which he deserved (based on Exodus 21:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:16&version=KJV)), now he's going to be "rewarded" with "three hots and a cot" for the rest of his life (at the taxpayers' expense)? That is not justice at all.

i didn't know the 1st Commandment gave exceptions....silly me.

Christian Liberty
08-01-2013, 06:05 PM
I agree with you, Ed. Instead of giving him the penalty in which he deserved (based on Exodus 21:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:16&version=KJV)), now he's going to be "rewarded" with "three hots and a cot" for the rest of his life (at the taxpayers' expense)? That is not justice at all.

Well, I agree with you he should have got death (This seems like a very obvious case of guilt, IMO) but I wouldn't really call being locked in a cage for life a "Reward."

That said, we really need a better justice system in a number of respects before we can even consider the death penalty. Ron is against it, and with our system the way it is, I don't blame him. I don't trust the judges.

RCA
08-01-2013, 06:07 PM
Excuse me, RCA, but Stefan Molyneux is not a reliable person to source as an authority on what "true Christianity" is. So that video is laughable, at best, and ignorant, at worst.

Besides that, your post is not germane to the thread, so now we have a logical fallacy of a red herring committed on your part.

You just committed Ad Hominem in nearly perfect form.

eduardo89
08-01-2013, 06:09 PM
i didn't know the 1st Commandment gave exceptions....silly me.

I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Nope, no exceptions to that.

Christian Liberty
08-01-2013, 06:12 PM
Not all Christians support war, Stefan.

And the death penalty has no comparison to war.

Theocrat
08-01-2013, 06:17 PM
You just committed Ad Hominem in nearly perfect form.

Do you even know what an ad hominem fallacy is? If I said that Stefan Molyneux was an ugly person (for instance), and that makes him wrong about Christianity, then that would be an ad hominem fallacy because I would be attacking him personally. I stated that he was not a reliable source on Christianity (by which I should have added was due to the fact that he himself cherry-picks passages that he likes in the Bible, not being a Christian, himself). That is not a personal attack at all against him. It can be proven in several ways, but it is not germane to this thread. And that was my point, RCA. Your posting of his video has nothing to do with Ed's OP; it was a red herring. So, don't try to cover your own fallacious reasoning by falsely accusing me of doing the same. Own up to your fallacy, and move on with the topic at hand.

Christian Liberty
08-01-2013, 06:20 PM
How about Stefan is unqualified to comment on Christianity because he...

*drumroll*





























*drumroll*






















*drumroll*




















Isn't a Christian!

Was that so hard?

JK/SEA
08-01-2013, 06:23 PM
I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Nope, no exceptions to that.

my bad.

Thou shall not kill....the 6th.

eduardo89
08-01-2013, 06:27 PM
my bad.

Thou shall not kill....the 6th.

Sixth Commandment is:Thou shalt not commit adultery

You're thinking of the Fifth, which is: Thou shalt not murder.

Murder is different from killing. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being. The Bible makes clear that that self-defense and capital punishment are not murderl

JK/SEA
08-01-2013, 06:30 PM
Sixth Commandment is:Thou shalt not commit adultery

You're thinking of the Fifth, which is: Thou shalt not murder.

Murder is different from killing. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being. The Bible makes clear that that self-defense and capital punishment are not murderl


mis-information out there.

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/6command.htm

this why i stay away from organized religion and the bible. Too convoluted.

I'm opposed to the death penalty for many reasons anyway.

green73
08-01-2013, 06:30 PM
How about Stefan is unqualified to comment on Christianity because he...

*drumroll*





























*drumroll*






















*drumroll*




















Isn't a Christian!

Was that so hard?

Do you know who stupid you sound?

eta:

like this Fox anchor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XByo8uZtRD4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XByo8uZtRD4

Theocrat
08-01-2013, 06:30 PM
i didn't know the 1st Commandment gave exceptions....silly me.

I saw that you meant to say "the 6th Commandment." However, the Scriptures do allow for certain types of killing as a means of justice, as in capital offenses (beginning with Genesis 9:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+9:6&version=KJV); see also Romans 13:1-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2013:1-4&version=KJV)).

eduardo89
08-01-2013, 06:31 PM
Do you know who stupid you sound?

No, he doesn't or he'd stop posting.

eduardo89
08-01-2013, 06:33 PM
mis-information out there.

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/6command.htm

this why i stay away from organized religion and the bible. Too convoluted.


1. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

Anti Federalist
08-01-2013, 06:37 PM
I saw that you meant to say "the 6th Commandment." However, the Scriptures do allow for certain types of killing as a means of justice, as in capital offenses (beginning with Genesis 9:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+9:6&version=KJV); see also Romans 13:1-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2013:1-4&version=KJV)).

Romans 13...really?

Paul was a hypocrite.

If he and the disciples had not plotted against the government and committed any number of crimes against the state, Paul would never have been broken out of prison and would have died in Damascus.

Theocrat
08-01-2013, 06:43 PM
Romans 13...really?

Paul was a hypocrite.

If he and the disciples had not plotted against the government and committed any number of crimes against the state, Paul would never have been broken out of prison and would have died in Damascus.

I hardly see how your sentiments are a refutation of the fact that God ordains civil magistrates (as "ministers of God") to execute civil evildoers, just like it says plainly in Romans 13.

devil21
08-01-2013, 06:47 PM
That's quite the thread derail there fellas.

Anyway....


Because that would leave him eligible for parole.

That's kinda the point though. The sentencing stuff has become absurd. Sentenced to life in prison? It's cool, you may get parole. So much for "life in prison". Sentenced to life plus 1000 years? Yeah that makes sense. Then there's the "natural life" sentence which actually is life but they call it life without possibility of parole. Nothing to see here...just the government shredding the english language some more.

John Corzine still walks a free man. OJ is still in prison for "stealing" his own shit. smh

Anti Federalist
08-01-2013, 06:48 PM
I hardly see how your sentiments are a refutation of the fact that God ordains civil magistrates (as "ministers of God") to execute civil evildoers, just like it says plainly in Romans 13.

Because civil rulers have authority from man, who is subject to corruption, wickedness and just plain being wrong.

For Paul to write that all good Christians must submit to civil authority, when he himself was writing that as a jailbreaking felon, is hypocritical.

Deadly force is only moral and justified to stop an imminent and immediate threat to life and limb.

A defendant, chained, shackled and surrounded by cops or appearing by video is none of those things.

Therefore, using deadly force against them is immoral.

Wearing a badge or robe or other funny government costume does not make it moral.

Theocrat
08-01-2013, 07:04 PM
Because civil rulers have authority from man, who is subject to corruption, wickedness and just plain being wrong.

For Paul to write that all good Christians must submit to civil authority, when he himself was writing that as a jailbreaking felon, is hypocritical.

Deadly force is only moral and justified to stop an imminent and immediate threat to life and limb.

A defendant, chained, shackled and surrounded by cops or appearing by video is none of those things.

Therefore, using deadly force against them is immoral.

Wearing a badge or robe or other funny government costume does not make it moral.

AF, each of those points are arbitrary, lacking any ultimate foundation for why they are true. Also, they do not refute the passage in Romans 13 because nowhere in that passage (or even the entire book) do we find anything asserting that Paul "was a jailbreaking felon." That is just false, AF.

When you say things like, "Deadly force is only moral and justified to stop an imminent and immediate threat to life and limb," why is that true? Because you say so? Once again, though, your point there misses my argument because I cited where God allows for men to execute civil offenders by death when I linked to the Genesis 9:6 passage.

Governments are ordained and justified, ultimately, by God. He is the Creator of the universe, and therefore, He gets to set the rules on how men ought to behave and what institutions they are allowed to have for the benefit of civility and justice. He is the Ultimate Property Owner of the entire universe, and that is His right alone. Men do not decide on what they think "deadly force" should be, nor how it should be applied. God does.

JK/SEA
08-01-2013, 07:07 PM
AF, each of those points are arbitrary, lacking any ultimate foundation for why they are true. Also, they do not refute the passage in Romans 13 because nowhere in that passage (or even the entire book) do we find anything asserting that Paul "was a jailbreaking felon." That is just false, AF.

When you say things like, "Deadly force is only moral and justified to stop an imminent and immediate threat to life and limb," why is that true? Because you say so? Once again, though, your point there misses my argument because I cited where God allows for men to execute civil offenders by death when I linked to the Genesis 9:6 passage.

Governments are ordained and justified, ultimately, by God. He is the Creator of the universe, and therefore, He gets to set the rules on how men ought to behave and what institutions they are allowed to have for the benefit of civility and justice. He is the Ultimate Property Owner of the entire universe, and that is His right alone. Men do not decide on what they think "deadly force" should be, nor how it should be applied. God does.


bullshit.

phill4paul
08-01-2013, 07:18 PM
Xtian's that call for stoning's just amuse the hell out of me.

Anti Federalist
08-01-2013, 07:19 PM
AF, each of those points are arbitrary, lacking any ultimate foundation for why they are true. Also, they do not refute the passage in Romans 13 because nowhere in that passage (or even the entire book) do we find anything asserting that Paul "was a jailbreaking felon." That is just false, AF.

Was not Paul "rescued" from his oppressors in Damascus, specifically by being secreted out over the city wall in a basket?

Was that not a violation of the ordained civil law?

Was he not, in fact, a jailbreaker?

Did he go back to Damascus at any time and surrender himself to authority?


Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

I see nothing in that passage that commands civil authority to take a man's life as punishment for murder or in this case, rape and torture.

Civil authority, being corrupt, of course looks the other way at torture and rape in its prison GULAGS.


Once again, though, your point there misses my argument because I cited where God allows for men to execute civil offenders by death when I linked to the Genesis 9:6 passage.

Let me take you at your word.

Allows.

Does not command.

Therefore, we, the people, can decide if putting a man to death, based on the decisions of this horribly corrupt system, is justified or should be allowed.

Anti Federalist
08-01-2013, 07:28 PM
Xtian's that call for stoning's just amuse the hell out of me.

I'm a Christian, brother, and obviously, on this subject, I see things differently than Theo and Ed. ;)


You know over the years, I’ve held pretty rigid to all my beliefs but I’ve changed my opinion about the death penalty. For federal purposes, I no longer believe in the death penalty. I believed it has been issued unjustly. If you are rich you get away with it. If you’re poor and you’re from the inner city, you’re more likely to be prosecuted and convicted. And today, with the DNA evidences there’s been too many mistakes, so I am now opposed to the federal death penalty. - Ron Paul 2007

He believes that opposing capital punishment is consistent with being pro-life; in his book, Liberty Defined, stating "It's strange to me that those who champion best the rights of pre-born are generally the strongest supporters of the death penalty and preventive, that is, aggressive, war. - Ron Paul "Liberty Defined"

phill4paul
08-01-2013, 07:32 PM
I'm a Christian, brother, and obviously, on this subject, I see things differently than Theo and Ed. ;)

Christian. Not Xtian. I purposely differentiate. My momma's a Christian. About the most Christ like of any other I have ever met. I got nothing but love for her. ;)

Antischism
08-01-2013, 07:37 PM
Good, the death penalty shouldn't exist.

JK/SEA
08-01-2013, 07:51 PM
Good, the death penalty shouldn't exist.

well if you're a Christian, you can justify it with a few bible passages

Christian Liberty
08-01-2013, 08:04 PM
I'm a Christian, brother, and obviously, on this subject, I see things differently than Theo and Ed. ;)


Christian. Not Xtian. I purposely differentiate. My momma's a Christian. About the most Christ like of any other I have ever met. I got nothing but love for her. ;)

What distinction do you make?


my bad.

Thou shall not kill....the 6th.


Sixth Commandment is:Thou shalt not commit adultery

You're thinking of the Fifth, which is: Thou shalt not murder.

Murder is different from killing. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being. The Bible makes clear that that self-defense and capital punishment are not murderl

The Protestants have a different order than the papists;)


No, he doesn't or he'd stop posting.

I'm not dumb, but green does have a point, which I'll mention in a minute.

Romans 13...really?

Paul was a hypocrite.

If he and the disciples had not plotted against the government and committed any number of crimes against the state, Paul would never have been broken out of prison and would have died in Damascus.

Just curious, do you theologically deal with that at all or do you just claim that chapter wasn't inspired?

Xtian's that call for stoning's just amuse the hell out of me.

You believe that anyone who believes in the death penalty, no matter what else they believe in, isn't a real Christian?


Do you know who stupid you sound?

eta:

like this Fox anchor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XByo8uZtRD4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XByo8uZtRD4

Well, yeah, you're right. I guess my problem was more that Stefan didn't know what he was talking about. He combined arguing against fighting those who were guilty of murder with killing the innocent a few times, and he made the erroneous assumption that every Christian was pro-war. I think he also didn't understand ex cathedra but since I'm not a Catholic, I'm not certain.

Christian Liberty
08-01-2013, 08:09 PM
As a purely theoretical matter, I see no issue with the idea of putting a murderer or rapist to death. If you want to live, don't do things that completely and totally destroy other people's lives. Stephan Kinsella's estoppel principle is very useful here.

As a pragmatic matter, I can understand the issues with giving government the power to execute.

So I sympathize with both sides. This particular guy seems like a clear cut case though.

JK/SEA
08-01-2013, 08:18 PM
As a purely theoretical matter, I see no issue with the idea of putting a murderer or rapist to death. If you want to live, don't do things that completely and totally destroy other people's lives. Stephan Kinsella's estoppel principle is very useful here.

As a pragmatic matter, I can understand the issues with giving government the power to execute.

So I sympathize with both sides. This particular guy seems like a clear cut case though.

so, are you volunteering to be an executioner?...on your own dime?

Anti Federalist
08-01-2013, 08:32 PM
Just curious, do you theologically deal with that at all or do you just claim that chapter wasn't inspired?

I'm not "torn" over it, it was Paul's opinion and Paul was wrong. (And a hypocrite)

Christ's life, actions and teachings were nothing but a chronicle of resistance to corrupt secular and civil worldly authority, while at the same time giving love and encouragement and enhancing the life of the worse off among us.

As much as the documentation can be trusted, chronicling his life and words and deeds, I take my lead from that, and humbly walk in that shadow.

Paul perhaps had an ulterior motive, in order to aalow the early Christian church to flourish and grow, perhaps he realized that they had better "cool it" before they got wiped out by Roman authority.

He should have said so if that was his purpose, AFAIC.

James Madison
08-01-2013, 08:44 PM
Clearly a case where EXILE is the way to go.

U.S. is down one insane lunatic
Tax payers don't have to support said lunatic
He'll probably be executed if he tries something anywhere else
If not, he has a chance to repent and make amends for his crimes (which he sure isn't doing in a jail cell)

Win-Win-Win-Win Scenario

Christian Liberty
08-01-2013, 08:47 PM
I'm not "torn" over it, it was Paul's opinion and Paul was wrong. (And a hypocrite)

Christ's life, actions and teachings were nothing but a chronicle of resistance to corrupt secular and civil worldly authority, while at the same time giving love and encouragement and enhancing the life of the worse off among us.

As much as the documentation can be trusted, chronicling his life and words and deeds, I take my lead from that, and humbly walk in that shadow.

Paul perhaps had an ulterior motive, in order to aalow the early Christian church to flourish and grow, perhaps he realized that they had better "cool it" before they got wiped out by Roman authority.

He should have said so if that was his purpose, AFAIC.

Well, we still have 2 Timothy 3:16 to deal with, and "Render Unto Caesar." Although I don't think "Render unto Caesar" or Romans 13 really mean what most Christians think they mean.

mad cow
08-01-2013, 09:42 PM
This dude was obviously guilty but here is another thread dealing with the death penalty that links to a long article that is well worth reading.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?423070-quot-There-have-to-be-some-kind-of-consequences-quot

BetterCallSaul
08-01-2013, 09:50 PM
It is literally absurd to me that 21st century Freedom activists are arguing about the niceties of the language used in a 3000 year old mythology book of folktales.

HOLLYWOOD
08-01-2013, 10:08 PM
Dragnet | 1987
Clip Name: The Reverend Getting His Punishment


http://www.anyclip.com/movies/dragnet/the-reverend-getting-his-punishment/


Quote
Unknown
On February 21, a trial was held in Superior Court...
in and for the County of Los Angeles.
The Reverend Jonathan Whirley was found guilty...
on two counts of attempted murder...
kidnapping, arson, obstruction of justice...
and tampering with public utilities.
He is presently in the men's correction facility at Chino...
serving 43 consecutive 99-year sentences...
which makes him eligible for parole in seven years.

shane77m
08-02-2013, 06:31 AM
The man should be secured to a chair or a post. Then the women he held captive should be allowed to have some alone time with him. They should be allowed to have whatever they wanted for that alone time. If he survived then he should be put in prison with no possibility of getting out or he should be executed. If he didn't survive the alone time, then good riddance to trash that is taking up oxygen.