47 Percent of Detroit Homeowners Have Quit Paying Property Taxes

[BarryDonegan]

Governments gain their legitimacy from the consent of the governed, and, when such institutions no longer provide any appreciable benefits to citizens, even mainstream folks with no political ideology will become tax resisters. Also, proponents of big government should take note that spending and taxation can reach such high levels that services collapse and tax revenues plunge. Detroit’s government has officially gotten so big and its services so ineffective that anarchy is breaking out in response.

More info:

http://silverunderground.com/2013/07/47-percent-of-detroit-homeowners-have-quit-paying-property-taxes/

[paulbot24]

Didn't some MSNBC shill say Detroit is what happens when you don't have enough government......?

[ladyjade3]

Didn't some MSNBC shill say Detroit is what happens when you don't have enough government......?

Gross. Probably. Right after they complained that the free market wasn't working in medicine and that's why we need Obamacare.

[Acala]

Governments gain their legitimacy from the consent of the governed, and, when such institutions no longer provide any appreciable benefits to citizens, even mainstream folks with no political ideology will become tax resisters. Also, proponents of big government should take note that spending and taxation can reach such high levels that services collapse and tax revenues plunge. Detroit’s government has officially gotten so big and its services so ineffective that anarchy is breaking out in response.

More info:

http://silverunderground.com/2013/07/47-percent-of-detroit-homeowners-have-quit-paying-property-taxes/

Interesting - secession through mass resistance to taxation.

[phill4paul]

Interesting - secession through mass resistance to taxation.

Winning.

[pcosmar]

http://socialevolutionforum.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/mine_canary.jpg?w=594

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/canary-in-a-coal-mine.jpg


Get a clue.

[kahless]

This is great news, now if only the remaining 53% would stop paying property taxes. There is then the possibility they could emerge as a Libertarian city with groups forming their own private services to replace government.


Didn't some MSNBC shill say Detroit is what happens when you don't have enough government......?

They are effectively the government's propaganda arm and are therefore the greatest obstacle to what I describe above. The protests need to be taken to their doors in order to expose them for the benefit of the average American not paying attention.

[DamianTV]

The burden of Govt debt does NOT rest on the Govt, but those that pay its way.

If Detroit had the power to "just print money" like the Federal Govt does (by way of the Federal Reserve Bank), gurarteed that it would have. It becomes glaringly obvious that Govts shift that burden of responsibility to the People to pay its bills. Either by direct taxation or inflation (printing the money), the people always pay for every irresponsible action every Govt does. Now if the opposite were true where the Federal Govt did not have the power to print money (again, loaned from the Federal Reserve Bank), it would try to raise everyones taxes to pay for what ever it wants. And the whole country would be in the same shape as Detroit. And no, Im not advocating the Federal Reserve, I believe they are they key problem as to why Govts are so addicted to spending your money. But it does put a leash, a contstraint, a measure of control on Govt. Crashing the economy is probably as unpopular as raising taxes. They'd figure out that if those "leaders" (i.e. puppets of the Too Big To Fail Banks) got voted out (without rigging elections), they'd have to do something responsible. Like figuring out that their jobs directly depend on them cutting their spending on programs like the War on Drugs / NSA / Dept of Education. End result would be not only would we have lower taxes without the Federal Reserve, we also wouldnt have a Govt that subsidises the creation of poverty or subsidises the enstupidation of your children, and would all be much better off for not having a Central Bank.

[Darguth]

Just as an FYI to anyone not familiar with the reality of Detroit, not all or even the majority of those "opting out" of paying property taxes are doing so for really ideological reasons.

The tax collection agency in Detroit is so inept, underfunded, and corrupt that people that literally asked to be taxed didn't get sent proper documentation. Other people were sent tax forms for property they didn't own anymore. Still others were sent incorrect tax information.

So, the statistics on not paying property taxes is indicative of the failures of government. However I do not think it is necessary indicative of a rising wave of tax-resistant attitudes. If the government in Detroit were semi-competent I'm sure the sheeple would be paying the thieves routinely.

[DamianTV]

Just as an FYI to anyone not familiar with the reality of Detroit, not all or even the majority of those "opting out" of paying property taxes are doing so for really ideological reasons.

The tax collection agency in Detroit is so inept, underfunded, and corrupt that people that literally asked to be taxed didn't get sent proper documentation. Other people were sent tax forms for property they didn't own anymore. Still others were sent incorrect tax information.

So, the statistics on not paying property taxes is indicative of the failures of government. However I do not think it is necessary indicative of a rising wave of tax-resistant attitudes. If the government in Detroit were semi-competent I'm sure the sheeple would be paying the thieves routinely.

What would one expect from a city with an illiteracy rate of 47%? This also should reveal that Govt Subsidization of anything only results in the opposite effect. Detroit was one of the first cities with a subsidized education system.

[69360]

First off, who would voluntarily live in Detroit? There is no point in paying taxes there, you get next to no services for your money and there are just about no repercussions to not paying them. What is the city going to do, take your house? :rolleyes: Half of the city is vacant, nobody would want it. I don't think they even bother with tax sales anymore.

[KrokHead]

So, the statistics on not paying property taxes is indicative of the failures of government. However I do not think it is necessary indicative of a rising wave of tax-resistant attitudes.

I thought it was simply due to people not having enough money to pay the taxes.

[Schifference]

I recently read that the mill rate in Detroit was very high. That would be insignificant because from what I see property values are in the toilet. Can buy a property in Detroit for chump change so the mill rate is irrelevant.

[angelatc]

I thought it was simply due to people not having enough money to pay the taxes.

Thats part of it, but part of it is that people just abandoned their property when they left. Between 15% unemployment, being underwater on the mortgage and being in Detroit.....no reason to stick around.

[angelatc]

I recently read that the mill rate in Detroit was very high. That would be insignificant because from what I see property values are in the toilet. Can buy a property in Detroit for chump change so the mill rate is irrelevant.

I don't remember exactly what the problem was, but we toyed with the idea of buying a foreclosure in one of the nicer Detroit neighborhoods. We could have paid cash for it, but the property taxes were $30k per year. There's no value there.

[samforpaul]

but the property taxes were $30k per year.


Seriously, is 30k a typo? Surely, you jest.

[Snew]

Time to work on getting that to 100%!

[torchbearer]

Seriously, is 30k a typo? Surely, you jest.

30k?
wow, i'm about to start a war over $150.

[amy31416]

I don't remember exactly what the problem was, but we toyed with the idea of buying a foreclosure in one of the nicer Detroit neighborhoods. We could have paid cash for it, but the property taxes were $30k per year. There's no value there.

I'll have to parrot others here--30k? Did you mean 3k?

Even at 3k, there's no value, but 30k--that's higher than most residents annual salary I'd think.

[69360]

$30k is about right for a house assessed at $500k in Detroit.

[amy31416]

$30k is about right for a house assessed at $500k in Detroit.

There are homes worth 500k in Detroit?

Yeah, yeah--I know "assessed" value. If Angie's post isn't a typo, there is no way that this city is going to dig itself out.

[69360]

There are homes worth 500k in Detroit?

Yeah, yeah--I know "assessed" value. If Angie's post isn't a typo, there is no way that this city is going to dig itself out.

Yeah there are. I've only been to Detroit a few times, but there are better areas way out close to 8 mile but still in the city

[osan]

Winning.

You call Detroit an example of winning? I would call it a grand example of people dooming themselves. Consider what "winning" has cost them. Many of those "winners" probably worked a good chunk of lifetime to pay for those homes. Those homes once held some reasonable market value. Today, they are essentially worthless and I would bet money that many of those same people remain because they cannot afford to go anywhere else. No job. Perhaps no savings, and definitely no value in their real estate such that they could sell and go elsewhere. Mr. Rock, may I introduce Mr. Hardplace?

That to which you refer as "winning" is in my eyes nothing more than inevitability come home to roost. It is the result of decades of complacency; of having FAILED to do that which you call "winning" when the actions would have held proper meaning - when the place was still a living city. THAT is when people should stand tall before the tyrant and smite him to the ground and leave his body for the coyotes and buzzards.

I suspect that what you witness and assess as "winning" in much of that 47 percent are people who can no longer afford to pay those taxes. Unless you can point me to an explicit tax revolt movement in Detroit, I can only speculate that a large proportion of that dead city's population, having not the means to escape the maw of hell, do what they can to get from one day to the next. Eating >> paying property taxes. If you can demonstrate otherwise, I will happily concede the point, but I will maintain in any event my position that this is not a case of WIN, but of profound FAIL. It is a textbook example of what awaits vast swaths of the population of this nation; the result of the rot of complacency that took root in this nation long, long ago where people decided it was OK to ignore the tyrants and their agents who at first took only nibble from their hides.

Every tyrant, regardless of how petty should be caged or killed outright, quickly, publicly, without mercy, without compunction, without regret, and indeed with a measure of satisfaction knowing that what is right has been done. I assert this without equivocation and do so because we are all of us here first hand witnesses to the results of tolerating that which must never be tolerated in the least measure. Such tolerance not only destroys oneself, but those around him as well. Has one no duty to protect his children from harm?

The sad part in all of this is that most of the nation sees Detroit and will do NOTHING about the similar conditions in their own cities and suburbs. "Can't happen here", is the boilerplate assessment. And so we will see the next city fall and the next, and in each case the rest will say it can't happen in their places because they are somehow different. They will REFUSE (vis-a-vis not be able to) to connect the dots in any appreciable numbers on average between despotic spending and the ultimately disastrous result it yields and before you know it the nation will really be in ruins. That is where I say we are heading and likely to be our fate. Thousands of years of the history of Empire supports this opinion with much steel. Why should it be different now? Why, all of a sudden, should people have become smarter and less compliant to the master's hand? Show me a reason. Please.

[phill4paul]

You call Detroit an example of winning? I would call it a grand example of people dooming themselves. Consider what "winning" has cost them. Many of those "winners" probably worked a good chunk of lifetime to pay for those homes. Those homes once held some reasonable market value. Today, they are essentially worthless and I would bet money that many of those same people remain because they cannot afford to go anywhere else. No job. Perhaps no savings, and definitely no value in their real estate such that they could sell and go elsewhere. Mr. Rock, may I introduce Mr. Hardplace?

That to which you refer as "winning" is in my eyes nothing more than inevitability come home to roost. It is the result of decades of complacency; of having FAILED to do that which you call "winning" when the actions would have held proper meaning - when the place was still a living city. THAT is when people should stand tall before the tyrant and smite him to the ground and leave his body for the coyotes and buzzards.

I suspect that what you witness and assess as "winning" in much of that 47 percent are people who can no longer afford to pay those taxes. Unless you can point me to an explicit tax revolt movement in Detroit, I can only speculate that a large proportion of that dead city's population, having not the means to escape the maw of hell, do what they can to get from one day to the next. Eating >> paying property taxes. If you can demonstrate otherwise, I will happily concede the point, but I will maintain in any event my position that this is not a case of WIN, but of profound FAIL. It is a textbook example of what awaits vast swaths of the population of this nation; the result of the rot of complacency that took root in this nation long, long ago where people decided it was OK to ignore the tyrants and their agents who at first took only nibble from their hides.

Every tyrant, regardless of how petty should be caged or killed outright, quickly, publicly, without mercy, without compunction, without regret, and indeed with a measure of satisfaction knowing that what is right has been done. I assert this without equivocation and do so because we are all of us here first hand witnesses to the results of tolerating that which must never be tolerated in the least measure. Such tolerance not only destroys oneself, but those around him as well. Has one no duty to protect his children from harm?

The sad part in all of this is that most of the nation sees Detroit and will do NOTHING about the similar conditions in their own cities and suburbs. "Can't happen here", is the boilerplate assessment. And so we will see the next city fall and the next, and in each case the rest will say it can't happen in their places because they are somehow different. They will REFUSE (vis-a-vis not be able to) to connect the dots in any appreciable numbers on average between despotic spending and the ultimately disastrous result it yields and before you know it the nation will really be in ruins. That is where I say we are heading and likely to be our fate. Thousands of years of the history of Empire supports this opinion with much steel. Why should it be different now? Why, all of a sudden, should people have become smarter and less compliant to the master's hand? Show me a reason. Please.

Anytime an individual chooses "Eating >> paying property taxes" I consider that a winning proposition. The fact that this same fate "awaits vast swaths of the population", to me, is a bonus. It is time for a wake up. The strong will survive. The strong will learn to replace the government services with mutual co-operation. There are many stories of the strong doing exactly that in their neighborhoods. Search and ye shall find.

[Darguth]

I recently read that the mill rate in Detroit was very high. That would be insignificant because from what I see property values are in the toilet. Can buy a property in Detroit for chump change so the mill rate is irrelevant.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/taxes/2012TotalMillageRates-EntireState_417267_7.pdf

2012 Millage Rates for Michigan, Detroit is at like 67 mills when the rest of the state is in like the 15-30 mill range.

[Anti Federalist]

There are homes worth 500k in Detroit?

Yeah, yeah--I know "assessed" value. If Angie's post isn't a typo, there is no way that this city is going to dig itself out.

I'm gonna agree with 69360 here, I'll wager that she typed that correct, an "upper middle class" home with $30,000 a year in property taxes sounds about right for Detroit.

I know somebody in NJ paying $15,000 a year in property taxes for a 1500 square foot ranch built in the 1970s on a postage stamp lot.

[presence]

The Onion should run a story on a wealthy investor from Hong Kong acquiring Detroit at Tax Auction.

[Anti Federalist]

Anytime an individual chooses "Eating >> paying property taxes" I consider that a winning proposition. The fact that this same fate "awaits vast swaths of the population", to me, is a bonus. It is time for a wake up. The strong will survive. The strong will learn to replace the government services with mutual co-operation. There are many stories of the strong doing exactly that in their neighborhoods. Search and ye shall find.

That is what is so infuriating to me.

I "pay" for "services" I do not use, need or want.

The vast bulk of my local taxation pays for schools (hah hah) and cops (HAHA HAHA HAHA).

I have none of the following: trash pickup, waste pickup, city water, city sewer or full time paid fire and EMT service (mostly volunteer, they keep a couple paid guys on duty just so somebody is always around).

[Anti Federalist]

The Onion should run a story on a wealthy investor from Hong Kong acquiring Detroit.

Onion stories are only funny because they sound plausible.

Even the furriners don't want Detroit.

I suspect someone could sell Chernobyl first.

[VBRonPaulFan]

I recently read that the mill rate in Detroit was very high. That would be insignificant because from what I see property values are in the toilet. Can buy a property in Detroit for chump change so the mill rate is irrelevant.

It isn't irrelevant, because the way Detroit calculates the value of your home is completely insane.

Here is a link to a presentation explaining it: http://mediasite.mihealth.org/Mediasite/Play/61ddea17-2294-45e7-8bf5-d341f0b48db8

Basically, when a house is first bought they calculate a 'taxable value' based on 'state equalized value' (SEV). SEV is 50% of the real home assessement. Taxable value is then equal to whatever the SEV value is. Taxable value doesn't go down unless you request a re-assessment on the home, but increases by the smaller of CPI (federal calculated CPI btw, so it is averaged across the country - not Detroit CPI as far as I can tell) or 5%/year.

So basically, even though most homes in Detroit are worthless and selling for $1, those homes haven't been re-assessed so the state still considers those homes for tax purposes as owing tax on say $200k (an averaged taxable value that ignores true market prices), instead of $1 which is the real assessment of value. At least that is how I understood it after watching the video and reading a little bit about it. It is absolutely no wonder why people have told the Detroit govt to get bent and just stopped paying their bills.

[69360]

Detroit residents in a mortgaged home could stop paying for a year or two, let it get foreclosed and buy it back in somebody else's name or as a llc at the sheriff's sale for pennies on the dollar using what they saved in payments. Same goes for people who own outright, you could stop paying taxes, let it go to tax auction and buy it back for less than what you would have paid in taxes. You wouldn't even have to leave your home.

There is absolutely no hope at all for that city.

[roho76]

Kwame was giving houses away for a $1 but nobody wanted them because of the assessed taxable value was so high that as soon as you take possession of the house you owed $100,000 in taxes.

[Pericles]

The Onion should run a story on a wealthy investor from Hong Kong acquiring Detroit.

And does an eviction on the current population.

[angelatc]

I'll have to parrot others here--30k? Did you mean 3k?

Even at 3k, there's no value, but 30k--that's higher than most residents annual salary I'd think.

No, 30k. It was a foreclosure in an upscale neighborhood. Think - auto executives with kids in private schools. It was eventually torn down. It needed a lot of work.

Cookies for everybody who said it was not a typo. But that's what I mean when I say that moving to Detroit to make it some Libertarian hub doesn't make sense. The taxes are too damned high! (ht Jimmy MacMillan)

There really sould be an upper limit on property taxes. The people living in million dollar mansions don't use 20x's the city resources that people living in smaller homes do.

[phill4paul]

That is what is so infuriating to me.

I "pay" for "services" I do not use, need or want.

The vast bulk of my local taxation pays for schools (hah hah) and cops (HAHA HAHA HAHA).

I have none of the following: trash pickup, waste pickup, city water, city sewer or full time paid fire and EMT service (mostly volunteer, they keep a couple paid guys on duty just so somebody is always around).

That's a suckers deal for being forced into a "social" contract.

[Ender]

Anytime an individual chooses "Eating >> paying property taxes" I consider that a winning proposition. The fact that this same fate "awaits vast swaths of the population", to me, is a bonus. It is time for a wake up. The strong will survive. The strong will learn to replace the government services with mutual co-operation. There are many stories of the strong doing exactly that in their neighborhoods. Search and ye shall find.

Agree.

Property taxes are unconstitutional- any revolt is a good one.

[oyarde]

So , by that percentage , it means anyone planning to stay and has the ability to pay is .No suprise there.

[Tod]

Onion stories are only funny because they sound plausible.

Even the furriners don't want Detroit.

I suspect someone could sell Chernobyl first.



Uh....methinks you have called that one wrong, AF:


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/29/chinese-investors-betting-on-detroit-comeback-buy-up-real-estate/

http://www.ibtimes.com/chinas-newest-real-estate-investment-craze-detroits-housing-crisis-1360973

[Pericles]

Uh....methinks you have called that one wrong, AFF:


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/29/chinese-investors-betting-on-detroit-comeback-buy-up-real-estate/

http://www.ibtimes.com/chinas-newest-real-estate-investment-craze-detroits-housing-crisis-1360973

The Red Dawn scenario begins!

[Dr.3D]

The Red Dawn scenario begins!
Yeah, if you can't take your enemy by force, buy them.

[amy31416]

No, 30k. It was a foreclosure in an upscale neighborhood. Think - auto executives with kids in private schools. It was eventually torn down. It needed a lot of work.

Cookies for everybody who said it was not a typo. But that's what I mean when I say that moving to Detroit to make it some Libertarian hub doesn't make sense. The taxes are too damned high! (ht Jimmy MacMillan)

There really sould be an upper limit on property taxes. The people living in million dollar mansions don't use 20x's the city resources that people living in smaller homes do.

They probably use fewer resources considering their kids are more likely to go to private schools.

[Henry Rogue]

Governments gain their legitimacy from the consent of the governed, and, when such institutions no longer provide any appreciable benefits to citizens, even mainstream folks with no political ideology will become tax resisters. Also, proponents of big government should take note that spending and taxation can reach such high levels that services collapse and tax revenues plunge. Detroit’s government has officially gotten so big and its services so ineffective that anarchy is breaking out in response.

More info:

http://silverunderground.com/2013/07/47-percent-of-detroit-homeowners-have-quit-paying-property-taxes/How ironic, when a government consumes it's society, it collapses from it's own weight and leaves society with nothing. Totalitarianism begets anarchy in the end.

[VBRonPaulFan]

How ironic, when a government consumes it's society, it collapses from it's own weight and leaves society with nothing. Totalitarianism begets anarchy in the end.

ying/yang
action/reaction

[BarryDonegan]

Detroit will have to start assessing those $1 properties at $1 or else they will never sell. It will be a ghost town until they do.

[CPUd]

Uh....methinks you have called that one wrong, AF:


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/29/chinese-investors-betting-on-detroit-comeback-buy-up-real-estate/

http://www.ibtimes.com/chinas-newest-real-estate-investment-craze-detroits-housing-crisis-1360973

LOL they are gonna get screwed.

What they don't say about the vacants is that anything left sitting after a couple days will be stripped clean- fixtures, wiring, pipes, etc.

[qh4dotcom]

Governments gain their legitimacy from the consent of the governed, and, when such institutions no longer provide any appreciable benefits to citizens, even mainstream folks with no political ideology will become tax resisters. [/url]

I doubt Detroit's tax resisters will become federal tax resisters.

[BarryDonegan]

I doubt Detroit's tax resisters will become federal tax resisters.

That's a different government, so their individual non ideological calculus will differ on governments at different levels, IMO. In the case of Detroit, lack of enforcement capability is implied in the government's failure. haha

[oyarde]

I doubt Detroit's tax resisters will become federal tax resisters.

Well , they have in a way, no job, no Fed payroll tax ...

[bunklocoempire]

Well , they have in a way, no job, no Fed payroll tax ...

It is very gratifying to pay no Fed payroll tax. And doing so legally within the confines of the their game is a hoot -nay, it is duty.

May we all be blessed to do such a thing while still carrying on with our responsibilities.