Bill O'Reilly's fool-proof plan for saving African-American community

[ObiRandKenobi]

if only i thought of it first. genius!




"I'm talkin' about public service announcements from these rap people...just ram it down their throat!"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdwD2IZmmWc


h/t MP (http://www.mofopolitics.com/2013/07/23/bill-oreilly-unveils-fool-proof-plan-to-save-african-american-community-psas-starring-rappers/)

[Carlybee]

I think Charles Kryptkeeper is starting to rival Ben Stein for putting me to sleep.

[CPUd]

http://i.imgur.com/8xlY0i5.gif

[Dr.3D]

http://i.imgur.com/8xlY0i5.gif

Wow, that cat can moon walk backwards.

[BlackTerrel]

O'Reilly is an idiot.

[LibertyEagle]

Stop paying single mothers to have babies, etc. You get more of what you subsidize.

Go listen to Schiff's interview of Chapter Jackson.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4uB3tlgQv0

[William R]

bump

[Occam's Banana]

I think Charles Kryptkeeper is starting to rival Ben Stein for putting me to sleep.

Whenever I watch CK, I entertain myself by imagining a long, forked lizard-tongue periodically darting out of his mouth to snag a passing fly ...

(I didn't do that this time, because I didn't watch at all - I am not sufficiently masochistic to expose myself to anything involving Bill O'Reilly.)

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

what is the african-american community exactly?

[dillo]

I detest Oreilly but I think the 76% of kids being born in wedlock is a driving issue, assuming that stat is true

[angelatc]

http://i.imgur.com/8xlY0i5.gif

why do that to that cat

[JCDenton0451]

what is the african-american community exactly?

There is no community as such, just a bunch of people who look and act alike.

And no, out-of-the-wedlock births have nothing to do with it. In Sweden most kids are born to unmarried mothers, and they have no crime whatsoever and some of the highest living standards in the world.

[tod evans]

Stop paying single mothers to have babies, etc. You get more of what you subsidize.


Quite simply ^^^^This^^^^

[Lucille]

Who needs a father in the home when you have Obama's social engineering schemes?

HUD’s New ‘Fair Housing’ Rule Establishes Diversity Data for Every Neighborhood in U.S.
http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=58127


According to HUD, long-term solutions include “helping people gain access to different neighborhoods and channeling investments into under-served areas.” The mapping tool may guide development and zoning decisions, for example.

In a July 16 speech to the NAACP, Donovan said the American Dream still isn’t within equal reach of all communities. He lamented the lack of diversity in America’s boardrooms, schools, and the nation’s “strongest neighborhoods.”

“We have got to shape a future where ladders of opportunity are available for all Americans,” Donovan said. “For African Americans, this is critically important. Historically, for this community, the rungs on these ladders have been too far apart -– making it harder to reach the middle class.”

Donovan said HUD’s new neighborhood mapping tool, which uses Census data, will “expand access to high opportunity neighborhoods and draw attention to investment possibilities in under-served communities.”

“Make no mistake, this is a big deal,” Donovan said. “With the HUD budget alone, we are talking about billions of dollars. And as you know, decades ago, these funds were used to support discrimination. Now, they will be used to expand opportunity and bring communities closer to the American Dream.”

Under the Fair Housing Act, HUD requires grantees, such as cities, that receive federal housing funds to “affirmatively further fair housing.”

Under the proposed rule, the neighborhood data provided by HUD will be used to evaluate patterns of integration and segregation, racial and ethnic concentrations of poverty, and access to “valuable community assets.” HUD wants to know if existing laws and policies — such as zoning, financing, infrastructure planning and transportation — create, perpetuate or alleviate segregation.

The proposed rule explicitly incorporates fair-housing decision-making into existing planning processes and “other decision-making that influences how communities and regions grow and develop.”

[tod evans]

Who needs a father in the home when you have Obama's social engineering schemes?

HUD’s New ‘Fair Housing’ Rule Establishes Diversity Data for Every Neighborhood in U.S.
http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=58127


Section 8 in gated communities...

That'll go over well..


Or maybe section 8 in the middle of a wheat field...


Government at its finest.

[Cleaner44]

Bill's never ending belief in the state as being the solution to our problems is never ending.

[Nobexliberty]

There is no community as such, just a bunch of people who look and act alike.

And no, out-of-the-wedlock births have nothing to do with it. In Sweden most kids are born to unmarried mothers, and they have no crime whatsoever and some of the highest living standards in the world. Sweden is a bad place to live and it is poor. It is just a temporary false prosperity that will end when the debt gets too high.

[JCDenton0451]

Sweden is a bad place to live and it is poor. It is just a temporary false prosperity that will end when the debt gets too high.

lolololol

Hold on, do you actually live there?

[LibertyEagle]

lolololol

Hold on, do you actually live there?

lololol

Hold on, do YOU?

[AuH20]

There is no community as such, just a bunch of people who look and act alike.

And no, out-of-the-wedlock births have nothing to do with it. In Sweden most kids are born to unmarried mothers, and they have no crime whatsoever and some of the highest living standards in the world.

Sweden has a little under 10 million citizens. There are 44 million blacks alone in the U.S. Secondly, the Swedish welfare system is based on a heavy redistribution agenda who's reach extends to preschool. Not surprisingly their entire system is in peril (serious talks to raising the retirement age to 75! Also, citizens over 67 are forbidden to work thanks to a lack of job availability) due to extreme revenue shortages. Long story short, you cannot replace fathers entirely with bureaucrats & social institutions since (a)it's distant (b) culturally destructive & (c) woefully unsustainable in real dollar terms. The nuclear family unit is the keystone of civilization. You can't replicate it.

[Nobexliberty]

lolololol

Hold on, do you actually live there?Land of Caroleans and vikings.

The viking part means I live in either Denmark,Norway, Sweden or Iceland and I expect you to know that. If i live in one of those former "viking" countries and say I am Swedish it is a good sign that I am.

And the poor part is not that Sweden is like Africa but that it is in debt. Is a man with a billion dollars in money but with 400 million dollars in debt really a billionaire? Same with the US but alot worse in the western side of the giant lake.

[AuH20]

Land of Caroleans and vikings.

The viking part means I live in either Denmark,Norway, Sweden or Iceland and I expect you to know that. If i live in one of those former "viking" countries and say I am Swedish it is a good sign that I am.

And the poor part is not that Sweden is like Africa but that it is in debt. Is a man with a billion dollars in money but with 400 million dollars in debt really a billionaire? Same with the US but alot worse in the western side of the giant lake.

Sweden is already burning due to massive immigration problems and cutbacks in their social welfare net. Imagine spoiling a 5 year old with every toy imaginable and then coming back a few months later to take it all back. That's where Sweden is as a country. The entire nation has been conditioned to depend on an extensive 'cradle to the grave' nanny state and based on reports, the tykes are not reacting well to the recent lack of affection. LOL

[JCDenton0451]

Sweden is already burning due to massive immigration problems and cutbacks in their social welfare net. Imagine spoiling a 5 year old with every toy imaginable and then coming back a few months later to take it all back. That's where Sweden is as a country. The entire nation has been conditioned to depend on an extensive 'cradle to the grave' nanny state and based on reports, the tykes are not reacting well to the recent lack of affection. LOL

Immigration is the only reason Swedish model is facing problems now, and WILL collapse eventually. Otherwise it could last for a very, very long time. Liberalism can work when all your people are highly intelligent, moral, virtuous and hard working. A native Swede would always choose work over life on welfare, because it is simply embarassing not to work. An African or a Middle Eastern immigrant is a completely different case altogether.

[AuH20]

Immigration is the only reason Swedish model is facing problems now, and WILL collapse eventually. Otherwise it could last for a very, very long time. Liberalism can work when all your people are highly intelligent, moral, virtuous and hard working. A native Swede would always choose work over life on welfare, because it is simply embarassing not to work. An African or a Middle Eastern immigrant is a completely different case altogether.

True, but it's workable in smaller populations, just as I suspect a more conservative nation could succeed. Large amounts of people eventually become untenable in terms of regulating passions and natural envy.

[Acala]

Immigration is the only reason Swedish model is facing problems now, and WILL collapse eventually. Otherwise it could last for a very, very long time. Liberalism can work when all your people are highly intelligent, moral, virtuous and hard working. A native Swede would always choose work over life on welfare, because it is simply embarassing not to work. An African or a Middle Eastern immigrant is a completely different case altogether.

I disagree. I think that the erosion of productivity, honesty, and innovation under socialism is inevitable. A country like Sweden that begins the socialist experiment with money in the bank, a homogenous culture, a strong work ethic, a propensity for peace, and a distaste and intolerance for corruption will take much longer to erode, but erode it will, eventually. Blaming immigrants in Sweden is just as unsound as blaming immigrants in the USA. If you give away free stuff, people will take it. Some people will take it sooner than others, but eventually they will ALL take it - or in any event enough will that the system will fail.

[gwax23]

Immigration is the only reason Swedish model is facing problems now, and WILL collapse eventually. Otherwise it could last for a very, very long time. Liberalism can work when all your people are highly intelligent, moral, virtuous and hard working. A native Swede would always choose work over life on welfare, because it is simply embarassing not to work. An African or a Middle Eastern immigrant is a completely different case altogether.


This is crap. The people of East Germany used to have a great work ethic. The Prussian or Protestant Work ethic they said. They worked hard, where very productive, had a strong culture of hard work, and family values. Decades under central planning destroyed this. The family was eroded. Birth rates plummeted. Productivity did as well. Now East germany is known for crime, unemployment, and welfare. This will happen to sweeden. Trying to say "Oh because sweedes are white the effects of socialism will never get to them" is BS. It can happen if your an Arab, Black, or a Sweede. Give it time and socialism will destroy the fabric of society.

[gwax23]

JcDenton you are probably the biggest child on this forum.

You neg rep me as usual because you lack the intellectual capability to respond to the most basic criticisms of your posts:

"Shut up, you Zionist scum"

[JCDenton0451]

True, but it's workable in smaller populations, just as I suspect a more conservative nation could succeed. Large amounts of people eventually become untenable in terms of regulating passions and natural envy.

A more conservative nation would be Switzerland, and yes they are even more successful than Swedes. Frankly, smart hardworking people like this can make any model work.

[gwax23]

A more conservative nation would be Switzerland, and yes they are even more successful than Swedes. Frankly, smart hardworking people like this can make any model work.

No they cant. Everywhere socialism and central planning is tried, it fails. Regardless of who you deem "smart and hardworking."

[oyarde]

When Crazy Bill did his talking points on this , what I got , he was correct .Stop throwing money at it , I believe is what he said , I also want to see the Fed govt to stop throwing money at every type of community.I will keep my money , my Constitution , they can jump in the lake.

[Nobexliberty]

No they cant. Everywhere socialism and central planning is tried, it fails. Regardless of who you deem "smart and hardworking." Antebellum nazi Germany worked just fine.

[gwax23]

Antebellum nazi Germany worked just fine.

Whats your definition of fine?

[Nobexliberty]

Whats your definition of fine? Economically Germany prospered and still had the tradional hard working Prussian population.

[gwax23]

Economically Germany prospered and still had the tradional hard working Prussian population.

It was a bubble. It wouldnt of lasted. Freedoms where eroded. People persecuted. The whole country eventually in ruins within a decade. This is not a system to strive for or hold up as a hallmark of the centrally planned state.

Further culture changes over long periods of time. Generations at the minimum. Not in the few year leading up to WW2.

[Dogsoldier]

Well Oreilly in the same head thinks that the war on drugs is working and a success. Now most everyone else with a brain knows that the war on drugs is a complete disaster. If we are really gonna get serious about helping the African-American community and everyone else we have got to end the war on drugs.

The damage the war on drugs is doing to our kids and families is horrible.

[Nobexliberty]

It was a bubble. It wouldnt of lasted. Freedoms where eroded. People persecuted. The whole country eventually in ruins within a decade. This is not a system to strive for or hold up as a hallmark of the centrally planned state.

Further culture changes over long periods of time. Generations at the minimum. Not in the few year leading up to WW2. It was the greatest economic system in the history of mankind unless liberty is taken in the equation, and that was what was bad about it. It would have lasted for generations as it engouraged productivity but would have enslaved the German people.

[Acala]

Economically Germany prospered and still had the tradional hard working Prussian population.

It isn't hard to create an economy that looks prosperous temporarily. Especially if you are starting with a vast store of capital goods already in place and a well-educated and experienced population.

[gwax23]

It was the greatest economic system in the history of mankind unless liberty is taken in the equation, and that was what was bad about it. It would have lasted for generations as it engouraged productivity but would have enslaved the German people.

No it wasnt. Wages fell 25% during the period you describe. Spending outpaced economic growth. He closed off trade to most countries to "encourage" self reliance.

Between 1933 and 1939, the total revenue was 62 billion marks, whereas expenditure (at times made up to 60% by rearmament costs) exceeded 101 billion, this created a huge deficit and national debt (reaching 38 billion mark in 1939)

Anyone advocating for a Nazi Economic system is not Libertarian and ignorant of economics.

[AuH20]

This Chris Hayes guy is so funny, when he's trying not to be:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/chris-hayes-blasts-bill-oreillys-super-racist-rant-maybe-problem-is-white-culture/


Hayes responded with statistics demonstrating the racial disparity that O’Reilly mocked, and promised that “everything he’s saying is easily debunked with about 20 minutes of googling.”

“That’s not really the point,” he continued. “The real reason Bill O’Reilly peddles this stuff is because it gives a cheap cracklike high to the old fearful white audience that watches Bill O’Reilly, and gives Fox News its power, also known as the Republican base. These are the folks Bill O’Reilly is feeding when he laments not being able to criticize black culture.”

Not just debunked. Easily debunked. ROFL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let's send Chris Hayes into the worst part of Chicago around 1 AM and we'll see if his convictions keep him alive. Unbelievable that he's doubting the federal crime statisitics but that's delusional liberals for you.

[Nobexliberty]

No it wasnt. Wages fell 25% during the period you describe. Spending outpaced economic growth. He closed off trade to most countries to "encourage" self reliance.

Between 1933 and 1939, the total revenue was 62 billion marks, whereas expenditure (at times made up to 60% by rearmament costs) exceeded 101 billion, this created a huge deficit and national debt (reaching 38 billion mark in 1939)

Anyone advocating for a Nazi Economic system is not Libertarian and ignorant of economics. I never advocated it, but it did help Germany alot considering how bad it was before Hitler and the recovery.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

"I'm talkin' about public service announcements from these rap people...just ram it down their throat!"

Ok, I'll agree, but white people need it too, and whatever other categories.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmBnvajSfWU#t=0m16s

[Nobexliberty]

And making Germany self-reliant was a top priority or the British blocakde of Germany during WW2 would have had worse effect then it already did.

[osan]

I will keep my money , my Constitution , they can jump in the lake of fire.

Fixed that for you.

[noneedtoaggress]

A more conservative nation would be Switzerland, and yes they are even more successful than Swedes. Frankly, smart hardworking people like this can make any model work.

Centralized planning cannot coherently allocate resources. It doesn't matter how smart the planners are, or how hardworking the community is. It's an information problem inherent to the diffused and subjective nature of information contained in the minds of individuals throughout society.


It was the greatest economic system in the history of mankind unless liberty is taken in the equation, and that was what was bad about it. It would have lasted for generations as it engouraged productivity but would have enslaved the German people.

Productivity doesn't bring prosperity unless you are meeting people's needs. You can have a mass of people with a strong work-ethic producing a lot of goods meant to build up a massive war-machine while people are starving in the street. Boosting the industry of effectively applying force is a high priority for the interests of the state (war is the health of the state).


2:00 - "...It completely destroyed the foundations, in one fell swoop, in one mighty swing of the samurai sword so to speak. It destroyed the intellectual foundations of the case for socialist economic planning. Not just socialist, but any kind of central planning. Whether it be the social democratic planning, or national socialist or Nazi/Fascist planning, or the New Deal planning of the [Great] Depression Period and WWII. Any sort of central planning is dashed upon the rocks of what we call Economic Calculation. The fact that it can't calculate, as we will see..."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7zzH8ruLDc

[Nobexliberty]

Centralized planning cannot coherently allocate resources. It doesn't matter how smart the planners are, or how hardworking the community is. Yes it can, while it is not efficient it can work.


Productivity doesn't bring prosperity unless you are meeting people's needs. You can have a mass of people with a strong work-ethic producing a lot of goods building up a massive war-machine while people are starving in the street. Boosting the industry of effectively applying force is a high priority for the interests of the state. Germans were well fed untill the end of the war from the mid 1930s. And war with Britain was defently not the health of the German state, Germany wanted peace with the west so they could keep focusing on the east.

[noneedtoaggress]

Yes it can, while it is not efficient it can work.

That depends on what you mean by "work".

Notice that I said resources cannot be coherently allocated. I didn't say that resources couldn't be allocated at all.

When you don't have the information contained in market prices to direct resource allocation resources must be directed politically. This state of affairs can't possibly end well. If you want to see the end result just look over to North Korea.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYO3tOqDISE


Germans were well fed untill the end of the war from the mid 1930s. And war with Britain was defently not the health of the German state, Germany wanted peace with the west so they could keep focusing on the east.

I wasn't commenting on Germany in particular. I was giving an example explaining how "hard work and productivity" doesn't necessarily translate to prosperity.

War is the health of any state and it's in regards to the state's use of force. It doesn't mean that any war is going to result in a positive outcome. It means that it's in the interest of the state as a monopoly on force and a "protection" racket to foster an enemy in the minds of the people and build an apparatus and industry around destroying this enemy. It's good in terms of uniting people around a common cause, which can be exploited for the benefit of those in power. It applies to everything from wars between nation-states to things like the War on Drugs, Nazi's war on Jews, War on Terror, etc etc

[ObiRandKenobi]

When Crazy Bill did his talking points on this , what I got , he was correct .Stop throwing money at it , I believe is what he said

That's the opposite of what he said.

[Cutlerzzz]

Immigration is the only reason Swedish model is facing problems now, and WILL collapse eventually. Otherwise it could last for a very, very long time. Liberalism can work when all your people are highly intelligent, moral, virtuous and hard working. A native Swede would always choose work over life on welfare, because it is simply embarassing not to work. An African or a Middle Eastern immigrant is a completely different case altogether.

Since when was Liberalism implemented in Sweden? I only see socialism.

[Nobexliberty]

That depends on what you mean by "work".

Notice that I said resources cannot be coherently allocated. I didn't say that resources couldn't be allocated at all.

When you don't have the information contained in market prices to direct resource allocation resources must be directed politically. This state of affairs can't possibly end well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYO3tOqDISE Effiecent planning can make all of that not only work but also work well. There would less luxury goods and all since the economic policies would focus more on the essentials on the other hand. But there is no reason why a planned economy would not be able to coherently spread resources, lets hope planned economies do not happen even if they can work.

[Cutlerzzz]

Antebellum nazi Germany worked just fine.

No it didn't. Germany had virtually run out of money by 1938 and it was estimated that they would collapse within a year. This was prolonged when they annexed Austria and Czechoslovakia and took their foreign reserves and precious metals, prolonged again by conquering Poland, and held off for a long period of time by conquering France, the Low Countries, Denmark and Norway. Nazi Germany was completely unsustainable and would have resulted in collapse by 1939 without conquests.

[noneedtoaggress]

Effiecent planning can make all of that not only work but also work well.

How? It certainly may be possible to make pencils, but the resources used could not be efficiently allocated without price signals. It's a complex and dynamic system. The decisions about how resources are to be used would necessarily have to be made through political channels rather than through price signals which contain information that is required to effectively allocate them.


There would less luxury goods and all since the economic policies would focus more on the essentials on the other hand. But there is no reason why a planned economy would not be able to coherently spread resources, lets hope planned economies do not happen even if they can work.

The reason is that central planners don't have the required information (and necessarily can't), to coherently direct resources. They can only direct resources according to their limited comprehension of a vastly complex, and dynamic system in which information is subjectively held and widely distributed between individuals throughout society.

They would need god-like powers to do so.

[Acala]

How? It certainly may be possible to make pencils, but the resources used could not be efficiently allocated without price signals. It's a complex and dynamic system. The decisions about how resources are to be used would necessarily have to be made through political channels rather than through price signals which contain information that is required to effectively allocate them.

The reason is that central planners don't have the required information (and necessarily can't), to coherently direct resources. They can only direct resources according to their limited comprehension of a vastly complex, and dynamic system in which information is subjectively held and widely distributed between individuals throughout society.

They would need god-like powers to do so.

Exactly. Von Mises shattered the idea that a command economy could work in his book "socialism". In a command system it is literally not possible to know whether to make ten shoes or ten thousand and whether everyone should have his own airplane or a horse cart instead.

The so called "mixed" economies survive only as long as the free part of the market can hold up the parasitical socialist part. But ultimately the parasite kills the host. It is only a matter of time.

[gwax23]

Nobexliberty are you even a libertarian? Why do you continue to defend central planning and Nazi Germany's economic policies. I recommend you read some Mises ASAP.

[Nobexliberty]

Nobexliberty are you even a libertarian? Why do you continue to defend central planning and Nazi Germany's economic policies. I recommend you read some Mises ASAP.I do not believe planned economics are good I just believe it is possilbe for them to work well if the goverment does it right(seldom happens). I am still a libertarian if I think anything that I disagree with can still work.

EIDT: Mispelled.

[Acala]

I never advocated it, . . .

You said: "It was the greatest economic system in the history of mankind . . . ."

I find it hard to take you seriously after making that statement.

[Nobexliberty]

You said: "It was the greatest economic system in the history of mankind . . . ."

I find it hard to take you seriously after making that statement.


It was the greatest economic system in the history of mankind unless liberty is taken in the equation You forgot someting.

[noneedtoaggress]

I do not believe planned economics are good I just believe it is possilbe for them to work well if the goverment does it right(seldom happens). I am still a libertarian if I think anything that I disagree with does not work.

Well luckly for you, you now have a new reason to bolster your belief that planned economies are not good.


The so called "mixed" economies survive only as long as the free part of the market can hold up the parasitical socialist part. But ultimately the parasite kills the host. It is only a matter of time.

One of Mises' big contributions to economics was on the economic calculation problem. He showed, praxeologically, how it's impossible for central planning to effectively function due to lack of market price signals and the information problems that result.

[Nobexliberty]

Well luckly for you, you now have a new reason to bolster your belief that planned economies are not good. I kinda mispelled that sentance:o

[Acala]

You forgot someting.

That only makes it worse. Saying it is the greatest economic system in the history of mankind (which is ridiculous on its own) except for the fact that it is slavery is like saying I have the greatest cure for cancer in history unless you take into account the fact that it invariably kills the patient.

[Nobexliberty]

That only makes it worse. Saying it is the greatest economic system in the history of mankind (which is ridiculous on its own) except for the fact that it is slavery is like saying I have the greatest cure for cancer in history unless you take into account the fact that it invariably kills the patient. But it does not make it less true.

[Acala]

But it does not make it less true.

You are correct, but only because it had already reached the pinnacle of falsity.

[noneedtoaggress]

But it does not make it less true.

Your assertions don't make it true either, though you seem to desperately want to defend it.

Mises made it pretty apparent why the centrally planned economy was anything but great.

[gwax23]

I cant rep you guys anymore. Disappointing.

[noneedtoaggress]

2:00 - "...It completely destroyed the foundations, in one fell swoop, in one mighty swing of the samurai sword so to speak. It destroyed the intellectual foundations of the case for socialist economic planning. Not just socialist, but any kind of central planning. Whether it be the social democratic planning, or national socialist or Nazi/Fascist planning, or the New Deal planning of the [Great] Depression Period and WWII. Any sort of central planning is dashed upon the rocks of what we call Economic Calculation. The fact that it can't calculate, as we will see..."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7zzH8ruLDc

...

[JCDenton0451]

Nobexliberty are you even a libertarian? Why do you continue to defend central planning and Nazi Germany's economic policies. I recommend you read some Mises ASAP.

Oh dear. I see our resident Israel-first (and only) objectivist fancies himself as a libertarian Pope now. The irony of it!

Why do you continue to defend Israel, gwax23 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?41688-gwax23)?

A better question: what is the difference between the Zionist Israel and Nazi Germany?

[gwax23]

Oh dear. I see our resident Israel-first (and only) objectivist fancies himself as a libertarian Pope now. The irony of it!

Why do you continue to defend Israel, gwax23 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?41688-gwax23)?

A better question: what is the difference between the Zionist Israel and Nazi Germany?

Your unbelievable. Anyone who supports or defends central planning is not Libertarian. Thats not my criteria, its just common sense.

You have a sick obsession with Israel. You troll about it constantly in every thread you post it, and derail many topics as a result. (Like this one.)

You just defended a racist proposition in this very thread. You said Swedes (White people) could effectively run a Socialist State. While Immigrants (Brown, Black people) could not. You not only defended central planning but you went further and defended the concept of racial superiority.

Of course you couldnt defend yourself when I called you out earlier on it, so you neg rep me and throw "Evil Zionist" around a couple times. I support self determination for the jewish people. Zionism. To compare a movement that seeks to enhance cultural ties amongst jews and seek independence with the Nazi regime, shows your bias and ignorance of facts and history.

Now I dont want to further derail this thread but Ill be happy to debate this topic further with you in a more appropriate area. Even though most of the times thats happened you fail to defend your points effectively and then disappear for a few days only to pop up in another thread to troll.

If you want to try to defend central planning and racism, go right ahead, I think itll be interesting to see you try.

[JCDenton0451]

Centralized planning cannot coherently allocate resources. It doesn't matter how smart the planners are, or how hardworking the community is. It's an information problem inherent to the diffused and subjective nature of information contained in the minds of individuals throughout society

Who's talking about centralized planning? You remind me of Paul Ryan at the Republican convention. He evoked mythical "central planners" to attack president Obama. What an idiot. Completely missed the mark.

Ruling out the most egregious examples, like the Soviet-style command economy with no private property etc, my assertion holds.

[JCDenton0451]

Of course you couldnt defend yourself when I called you out earlier on it, so you neg rep me and throw "Evil Zionist" around a couple times. I support self determination for the jewish people. Zionism. To compare a movement that seeks to enhance cultural ties amongst jews and seek independence with the Nazi regime, shows your bias and ignorance of facts and history.

A "movement for self-determination" that involves wars of agression, long-term military occupation and ethnic cleansing to create 'Lebensraum' for the Jewish people in Palestine. Yes, how is this different from what the Nazis tried to do?

You're defending this stuff. You're defending Israel's racist immigration policy. You're defending Zionist warmongering all the while claiming to be a libertarian.

[gwax23]

Thanks for another neg rep. What is that 3 times in just this one thread?


...Liberalism can work when all your people are highly intelligent, moral, virtuous and hard working. A native Swede would always choose work over life on welfare, because it is simply embarassing not to work. An African or a Middle Eastern immigrant is a completely different case altogether.

You defend central planning and concepts of racial superiority quite clearly. Yet you try to claim some moral high ground in regards to the Israeli Palestinian conflict?



Ruling out the most egregious examples, like the Soviet-style command economy with no private property etc, my assertion holds.

So Nazi Germany's economic model was all fine and dandy in your eyes? As long as it isnt specifically Communist or Leninist, its fine? I wouldnt doubt this is your view as it mixes both your love of central planning and racial superiority into one nifty ideology that the whole family can enjoy!

I support Jewish Sovereignty. You have no valid arguments against that basic concept so you claim I support every facet of the Israeli government. Its your typical strawman that ive dealt with in other threads you derail.

Stick to the topic and Ill give you a second shot to try and defend central planning and racism. Dont weasel your way out this time with some bizarre comparison to Paul Ryan.

[noneedtoaggress]

Who's talking about centralized planning? You remind me of Paul Ryan at the Republican convention. He evoked mythical "central planners" to attack president Obama. What an idiot. Completely missed the mark.

Ruling out the most egregious examples, like the Soviet-style command economy with no private property etc, my assertion holds.

You were:
Frankly, smart hardworking people like this can make any model work.

All states necessarily centrally plan and distort the pricing mechanism by their very nature. They are monopolies on particular services and funded through coercion rather than voluntary exchange which is the only way to establish market prices. They distort the pricing mechanism when it comes to security and the justice system and expand from there.

For instance, they can't know how many "police" the market would support (or how the security market would be organized at all really) and how resources in that industry would be allocated before resources would be diverted to something else which would bring about more prosperity, so those decisions are made politically and having an overwhelming police presence is in the interest of the state, when it may not be in the interest of the people that live under it.

[JCDenton0451]

I support Jewish Sovereignty. You have no valid arguments against that basic concept

I fact I do. "Jewish Sovereignty" sounds to me like a Nationalist (racist!) concept in principle that doesn't belong to a libertarian worldview.

Look pal. You should be the last person to enforce libertarian purity. You're part of objectivist cult.

[JCDenton0451]

You were:

All states necessarily centrally plan and distort the pricing mechanism by their very nature. They are monopolies on particular services and funded through coercion rather than voluntary exchange which is the only way to establish market prices. They distort the pricing mechanism when it comes to security and the justice system and expand from there.

For instance, they can't know how many "police" the market would support (or how it would be organized) and how resources in that industry would be allocated before resources would be diverted to something else which would bring about more prosperity, so those decisions are made politically and having an overwhelming police presence is in the interest of the state, when it may not be in the interest of the people that live under it.

Wonderful. Did you come to these conclusions on your own or did you read it somewhere?

[gwax23]

I fact I do. "Jewish Sovereignty" sounds to me like a Nationalist (racist!) concept in principle that doesn't belong to a libertarian worldview.

Look pal. You should be the last person to enforce libertarian purity. You're part of objectivist cult.

Not anymore than "Palestinian Sovereignty" or "Palestinian Statehood"

How about "Italian Sovreignty, Statehood, self determination" or "Spanish Sovereignty" or any other combination. Why only "Jewish" self determination nationalistic to you?

If your an Anarcho Capitalist (Which you arent) than I could understand your arguments as they are directed at all states, indiscriminately. This is at least consistent and their arguments against the state are rooted in substance. But your only directing your unsubstantiated angst at Israel. Again it shows your bias.

Further your still not commenting or defending your early positions on supporting Central Planning and Racism?

I Understand all the points being brought up by people like noneedtoagress or Acala are going wayyyyy over your head, but the least you can do it try to educate yourself and respond instead of making snide remarks or changing the topic to Israel.

[noneedtoaggress]

Wonderful. Did you come to these conclusions on your own or did you read it somewhere?

:rolleyes:

[Occam's Banana]

It was the greatest economic system in the history of mankind unless liberty is taken in the equation, [...]

Yeah, 'coz after all - what could an inconsequential thing like "liberty" have to do with making normative judgements about what economic system is "the greatest ... in the history of makind" ...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


Frankly, smart hardworking people like this can make any model work.

Holy New Socialist Man, Batman!

Marx, Lenin & Mao would +rep you for this if they could.


Wonderful. Did you come to these conclusions on your own or did you read it somewhere?

"Did you read it somewhere?" is a hallmark of the intellectually bankrupt loser.

By all means, please provide us with a complete ex nihilo exegesis of your beliefs, attitudes & opinions - from their axiomatic "roots" to their fully-developed expression at the "branch tips" of your psycho-conceptual "tree." Do NOT make reference to ANY work, thought, consideration or perception that is not solely and exclusively your own. Show your work ...

... OR you could just STFU with hypocritically asinine drivel like "did you read it somwhere?" ...

[JCDenton0451]

I don't appreciate people spewing book wisdom at me. I find it very condescending and it bores me. You want to make a point, do it in your own words. This is what the forum is supposed to be about.

[JCDenton0451]

Not anymore than "Palestinian Sovereignty" or "Palestinian Statehood"

How about "Italian Sovreignty, Statehood, self determination" or "Spanish Sovereignty" or any other combination. Why only "Jewish" self determination nationalistic to you?

I'm not a big fan of Spanish Sovereignty, however this concept is derived from a terroritory, not race or a specific ethnic group. So it's different and more palatable than something like a 'Jewish state', which is an idea explicitly rooted in blood kinship.

[noneedtoaggress]

I don't appreciate people spewing book wisdom at me. I find it very condescending and it bores me. You want to make a point, do it in your own words. This is what the forum is supposed to be about.

My point was in my own words. If it wasn't it would have been quoted (and probably a lot less free-form and sloppy). I also linked to a couple videos during the thread, one of them being an academic lecture. If you find it to be boring, that's fine, but that doesn't negate the ideas espoused. My intention was not to be condescending, but to reply to some assertions that were made about social organization.

There was nothing personal about this until you victimized yourself over it and responded by making negative implications against my character. Whether someone concludes something through their own deduction or is introduced to the concept elsewhere isn't even relevant to whether it's true or not. Your comment was clearly designed to detract from my character in order to derail and distract the conversation that was taking place.

As far as I can tell this forum is about sharing ideas related to liberty, including academic concepts that you may find boring and prefer not to become engaged in because it makes you feel condescended. Ron Paul certainly promotes the study of Austrian Economics and libertarian philosophy, including the wisdom that can be found in books or elsewhere.

[JCDenton0451]

If you wanted to prove that markets provide for a more efficient allocation of resources, than a central-planned economy, you have certainly made your case. Did you prove that a planned system is imperfect (flawed)? Yes, but neither is the market system devoid of flaws. Did you prove that a planned system cannot work? I don't think so.

Anyway, I don't see what this has to do with the point I originally made. Seems like you were just looking for an argument...

[Dianne]

Just get rid of the OREO, who pretends to be black ... Lucky his skinner color is black .... because Obama is white ... I don't know of many religions, or cultures that do not believe... where the mother's blood goes... so shall the child.

So we have an OREO as President... relative to Cheney and Bush... How convenient for him.

[Danan]

Yes it can, while it is not efficient it can work.

Germans were well fed untill the end of the war from the mid 1930s. And war with Britain was defently not the health of the German state, Germany wanted peace with the west so they could keep focusing on the east.

And Paul Samuelson believed the USSR would outperform the US economically in less than 10 years, based on his data analysis and understanding. That was in the late 80s.

You have absolutely no idea what the hell you're talking about here. The Nazi monetary, fiscal and industrial policy was straight out of the Keynesian playbook and would not have lasted more than a couple of years. In fact, the massive war industry expansion was not only the reason why the artificial boom was created, it also made an aggressive expansion "necessary" once it was started, because there was no way Nazi Germany could have survived for another decade without the prospect of "war loot".

Once in power they started a new policy of fiscal and monetary expansion, rejecting the at this time existing principle of a policy of price stablity and relatively free markets. Since the law didn't allow the direct purchase of government bonds by the central bank (to prohibit debt monetization), the head of the "Reichsbank" Hjalmar Schacht (a Nazi) came up with a way around it. They created a new organization called MEFO and a new financial tool called a "MEFO-Scheck" in order to spend like crazy. At first the maturity of these bonds was a couple of months, but even though the first ones were issued in 33, their maturity was delayed up until 39 and later on (at which point they didn't pay back most of it). They also forced savings banks to invest in MEFO-Schecks rather than in stock companies (which the Nazis hated for ideological reasons). This way, much of the savings of German households and firms were secretly confiscated by the government. Private companies were not allowed to pay more than 6% in dividends, unless they purchased MEFO-Schecks. It was a giant ponzi-scheme, for more dramatic than what's going on today in the US and Europe.

In order to "prevent" a massive inflation following from all of this, the Nazis enacted wage and price controls. Needless to say that this resulted in massive shortages of all (legal) goods and services and the thriving of the black market. To engage in illegal trade was punishable by death and/or imprisonment in concentration camps. You know, for betraying the "Vaterland". People frequently did it anyways, in order to keep their families alive.

There is just nothing good about the Nazis. Their economic policies were just as terrible as their social, judicial and war policies, and all the other ones.

[noneedtoaggress]

If you wanted to prove that markets provide for a more efficient allocation of resources, than a central-planned economy, you have certainly made your case. Did you prove that a planned system is imperfect (flawed)? Yes, but neither is the market system devoid of flaws. Did you prove that a planned system cannot work? I don't think so.

A system devoid of flaws would be Utopian, no one is claiming that the market is perfect. The point was that while the market is conducive to prosperity - central planning is not, will necessarily lead to worse results, and is ultimately unworkable. Specifically the point was: the more that is centrally planned the worse off that society will become, regardless of how intelligent those in charge are or the work ethic of the population. It's a problem with dispersed information and relaying information through price signals.

A centrally planned system cannot work, and it's been logically shown why this is the case. The central planning in a mixed economy will only "work" to the extent that there is enough going on in the market to support the distorted centrally-planned portion of the economy. The less central planning, the better.

It's true that someone may be able to function to varying degrees when they have malignant cancer, but it doesn't mean they are healthy. There's also the threat of the cancer metastasizing to the point of destroying the host if it's not dealt with.


Anyway, I don't see what this has to do with the point I originally made. Seems like you were just looking for an argument...

Well you changed the course of this conversation yourself, as I mentioned earlier. There wasn't anything about the value of 'book wisdom', your feelings, my character, or the purpose of this forum before you introduced it.

[Danan]

I do not believe planned economics are good I just believe it is possilbe for them to work well if the goverment does it right(seldom happens). I am still a libertarian if I think anything that I disagree with can still work.

EIDT: Mispelled.

Believing that planned economies on a large scale can "work well" doesn't necessarily make you unlibertarian, so long as you don't advocate them. You are right about that.

It does, however, make you an economic illiterate. And I don't say that to insult you. You are simply not literated enough on this subject, believe me. Or don't believe me and read Mises' "Socialism" or similar literature. I'm sure it will convince you.

[Danan]

If you wanted to prove that markets provide for a more efficient allocation of resources, than a central-planned economy, you have certainly made your case. Did you prove that a planned system is imperfect (flawed)? Yes, but neither is the market system devoid of flaws. Did you prove that a planned system cannot work? I don't think so.

Anyway, I don't see what this has to do with the point I originally made. Seems like you were just looking for an argument...

Why do you believe some people write whole books to explain why planned economies can't work if it coul easily and comprehensively laid out in a four-line posting in an online forum? Of course the argument didn't convince you wholly. That's because it only scratches on the surface - and it can't to more than it.

Nobody here is going to devote their valuable leisure time to spoon feed you why demand economies / planned economies can not "work" (and by that I mean not starving half the population to death), at least not in the long run on a large scale. To do that would take me at least a couple of days.

You can, however, read the literature, objections to the arguments and objections to the objections and make up your own mind. Or you do whatever else you want to do and continue to troll this thread.

[JCDenton0451]

A centrally planned system cannot work, and the central planning in a mixed economy will only "work" to the extent that there is enough going on in the market to support the distorted centrally-planned portion of the economy. The less central planning, the better.

This is mostly theory with little empirical data to support it.

Central planning seemed to work in the Soviet Union for decades. Then the Russians made a switch to market system...and made a horrible mess of it. If one had to evaluate the free market system based on Russian experience in the 1990s alone, one could reasonably conclude that free markets don't work. In fact most Russians felt that way. I don't get your cancer analogy at all. Soviet Union lasted 90 years. Are you suggesting it was dieing the whole time? lol

On the other hand some Baltic states have managed to transition to the market system without going through a major depression.

It is dumb to say that human factor makes no difference. Even within the Communist Bloc, East Germany had arguably the most robust economy with the highest productivity, GDP per capita and corresponding living standards etc.

[noneedtoaggress]

This is mostly theory with little empirical data to support it.

Central planning seemed to work in the Soviet Union for decades. Then the Russians made a switch to market system...and made a horrible mess of it. If one had to evaluate the free market system based on Russian experience in the 1990s alone, one could reasonably conclude that free markets don't work. In fact most Russians felt that way. I don't get your cancer analogy at all. Soviet Union lasted 90 years. Are you suggesting it was dieing the whole time? lol

War Communism? The New Economic Policy?

The USSR wouldn't have lasted as long as it had if it weren't for the West propping them up to a certain extent. They even got some price information by watching and trading with the West.

[Danan]

This is mostly theory with little empirical data to support it.

Central planning seemed to work in the Soviet Union for decades. Then the Russians made a switch to market system...and made a horrible mess of it. If one had to evaluate the free market system based on Russian experience in the 1990s alone, one could reasonably conclude that free markets don't work. In fact most Russians felt that way. I don't get your cancer analogy at all. Soviet Union lasted 90 years. Are you suggesting it was dieing the whole time? lol

On the other hand some Baltic states have managed to transition to the market system without going through a major depression.

It is dumb to say that human factor makes no difference. Even within the Communist Bloc, East Germany had arguably the most robust economy with the highest productivity, GDP per capita and corresponding living standards etc.

Yeah, that's why West-Berlinians built a wall to keep them in. And why they finally teared it down and swarmed East-Berlin in joy and anticipation of the material wealth in the workers' paradise!

Are you kidding me? Eastern Germany was a shithole compared to every country on the other side of the Iron Curtain.

As a general rule: If your country has to build a fence to keep you in and shoots those who flee, then it's probably a terrible place to live.

Also, the problems of Russia have nothing to do with it being more "capitalist". And yes, the Soviet Union was dying for 90 years. At least it's starving slave population was.

[noneedtoaggress]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6KnqLEsXmE

[JCDenton0451]

Are you kidding me? Eastern Germany was a shithole compared to every country on the other side of the Iron Curtain.


It was a wealthier country than any capitalist country in Latin America, Africa or the Middle East...You're such a close-minded person, it's ridiculous! I get that you study the Austrian economics and feel strongly about it, but economics is more of a branch of philosophy, than actual science. You're naive, if you think that Austrians hold the monopoly on truth.

[Danan]

It was a wealthier country than any capitalist country in Latin America, Africa or the Middle East...You're such a close-minded person, it's ridiculous! I get that you study the Austrian economics and feel strongly about it, but economics is more of a branch of philosophy, than actual science. You're naive, if you think that Austrians hold the monopoly on truth.

Ceteris paribus, the more socialist an economy is, the worse it gets. I won't bother to go deeper into your other BS.

[Occam's Banana]

This is mostly theory with little empirical data to support it.

Central planning seemed to work in the Soviet Union for decades.

Empirical fact: The Soviet Union was in possession of some of the largest and richest grain-producing lands in the entire world.

Q: Why did the Soviet Union have to import massive quantities of grains from the United States and elsewhere?
A: Because Soviet central planning was working so well ...

:rolleyes: You've got some very bizarre notions of "empirical" and "seemed to work" ...

[noneedtoaggress]

I get that you study the Austrian economics and feel strongly about it, but economics is more of a branch of philosophy, than actual science. You're naive, if you think that Austrians hold the monopoly on truth.

Can you explain how the Austrian School differs from other economic schools of thought, and why that might be important to understanding economics as a science?

[Ender]

Sweden has a little under 10 million citizens. There are 44 million blacks alone in the U.S. Secondly, the Swedish welfare system is based on a heavy redistribution agenda who's reach extends to preschool. Not surprisingly their entire system is in peril (serious talks to raising the retirement age to 75! Also, citizens over 67 are forbidden to work thanks to a lack of job availability) due to extreme revenue shortages. Long story short, you cannot replace fathers entirely with bureaucrats & social institutions since (a)it's distant (b) culturally destructive & (c) woefully unsustainable in real dollar terms. The nuclear family unit is the keystone of civilization. You can't replicate it.

Uh....no. The nuclear family is the problem of modern civilization.

In times past the TRADITIONAL family stood together and stayed together. You didn't need at least 2 working adults just for the bare minimum. Parents took care of kids and then the kids took care of the parents in advanced age. The 9-5 world, as we know it, didn't exist.

As far as the black issue, the black family was very solid and very Christian until Affirmative Action set about destroying them..

[LibertyEagle]

Uh....no. The nuclear family is the problem of modern civilization.

In times past the TRADITIONAL family stood together and stayed together. You didn't need at least 2 working adults just for the bare minimum. Parents took care of kids and then the kids took care of the parents in advanced age. The 9-5 world, as we know it, didn't exist.

As far as the black issue, the black family was very solid and very Christian until Affirmative Action set about destroying them..

So, how do you figure that the nuclear family is the problem?

[Ender]

So, how do you figure that the nuclear family is the problem?

The nuclear family is the product of the 9-5 world, which is not necessarily a normal way to function. It is also the product of compulsive education and the dumbing down of America.

In today's nuclear family, the family is usually separated from the extended family. Both parents usually work; few take care of their own elderly parents; children are treated like morons until 18 and then expected to suddenly become adults. Instead of staying with the family and helping to support it, 18 year olds are many times expected to get a job and move out.

This was NOT the way the family worked and stayed together for most of human history. Now we think the American Dream is to work 9-5, kids are a pain, grandparents need to be in a nursing home, retirement is a right, and so forth.

[paulbot24]

The breakdown of the family unit is the problem. You have two helicopter wage-earners, with 2 kids and a pet in every house, but not a parent to be seen. Everybody obsessed with personal empowerment, earning high incomes, and defining themselves through their own egos and the extensions of their egos (which we used to call children) and wondering why nobody stays together, nothing is sacred, and everybody is so willing to just quit. There is nothing special about "marriage" anymore, that is unless you ask the "gay community", which is ironic and truly indicative of people's mindsets.

[Cutlerzzz]

This is mostly theory with little empirical data to support it.

Central planning seemed to work in the Soviet Union for decades. Then the Russians made a switch to market system...and made a horrible mess of it. If one had to evaluate the free market system based on Russian experience in the 1990s alone, one could reasonably conclude that free markets don't work. In fact most Russians felt that way. I don't get your cancer analogy at all. Soviet Union lasted 90 years. Are you suggesting it was dieing the whole time? lol

On the other hand some Baltic states have managed to transition to the market system without going through a major depression.

It is dumb to say that human factor makes no difference. Even within the Communist Bloc, East Germany had arguably the most robust economy with the highest productivity, GDP per capita and corresponding living standards etc.

You think Russia's hyper inflationary woes in the 90s might have had something to do with the Soviet Union's bankruptcy? Never mind just how low the living standards even at the height of the Soviet Unions unsustainable bubble were compared to the West. Never mind how East Germany did compared to West Germany, North Korea vs South, Taiwan vs China, or Western Europe vs Eastern Europe as a whole.

There is not one single example of a successful, prosperous communist state anywhere.

[oyarde]

Land of Caroleans and vikings.

The viking part means I live in either Denmark,Norway, Sweden or Iceland and I expect you to know that. If i live in one of those former "viking" countries and say I am Swedish it is a good sign that I am.

And the poor part is not that Sweden is like Africa but that it is in debt. Is a man with a billion dollars in money but with 400 million dollars in debt really a billionaire? Same with the US but alot worse in the western side of the giant lake. Best I can tell , there are no Carolean's left , most were wiped out before reaching the battle of Poltava ( probably 75 % to famine ) , then lost and that was the end of the Swedes ( deciline) , all those hard fought victories squandered.....ahh , the life of a Karoliner , or soldier...... not so glorious , just hard work , constant vigil , then , maybe the end ....

[oyarde]

I remember the days of my youth as a wanderer.....

[JCDenton0451]

Ceteris paribus, the more socialist an economy is, the worse it gets. I won't bother to go deeper into your other BS.

Absurd statement, which shows just how detached from reality you are. You're not much much different from creationists who believe Earth is 5000 years old, ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

[Danan]

Absurd statement, which shows just how detached from reality you are. You're not much much different from creationists who believe Earth is 5000 years old, ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

Lol.

[noneedtoaggress]

Absurd statement, which shows just how detached from reality you are. You're not much much different from creationists who believe Earth is 5000 years old, ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

Half this thread is evidence contrary to what you've been asserting, both economically and historically, and there is absolutely nothing to support your character attack here. It's empty.

OTOH you haven't been able to back up any of the "absurd statements" you've been asserting, but resorted to complaining about "boring book wisdom, victimizing yourself, ignoring contrary evidence, and making character attacks.