Jesse Ventura To Continue Kyle Lawsuit

[donnay]

Jesse Ventura lawsuit vs. murdered Navy SEAL can move forward, judge says

Jesse Ventura’s lawsuit against “American Sniper” author Chris Kyle -- purportedly the deadliest-ever American servicemen -- can proceed with the war hero’s widow as a substitute defendant, a judge has ruled.

U.S. Magistrate Judge Arthur Boylan reportedly wrote in his decision concerning Ventura’s defamation suit, “(if) a party dies and the claim is not extinguished, the court may order substitution of the proper party.”

Boylan subsequently named Taya Kyle, executor of her husband’s estate, as replacement defendant, the StarTribune of Minneapolis reports.

Ventura, whose resume includes noted turns as Minnesota governor, WWF wrestler, Navy SEAL, and Hollywood actor, sued Kyle over an unflattering anecdote the sniper slipped into his 2012 book.

Specifically, Kyle alleged that during a 2006 tete-a-tete, the duo duked it out at a California bar after Ventura badmouthed the second Iraq War, the United States, in general, as well as then-President George W. Bush.

Kyle, who served four tours of duty during the second Iraq War, was fatally shot in February by a fellow vet he and friend Chad Littlefield had squired to a Texas gun range.

The shooter, Eddie Ray Routh, is said to suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, and Kyle was trying to aid the troubled former soldier. Routh, instead, tragically turned the gun on Kyle and Littlefield, killing both men.

Kyle is thought to be the most lethal American serviceman in history, with upwards of 160 confirmed kills in combat.

Ventura – who had his own nom de guerre -- “The Body” -- during his wrestling career and who famously appeared in “Predator,” a cult Hollywood classic – was not named in Kyle’s book, but instead therein referred to as “Scruff Face.”

Kyle later told TV audiences during an interview that “Scruff Face,” was, indeed, the former Minnesota chief executive.

A Ventura attorney had argued Taya Kyle should be substituted as a defendant because Chris Kyle's estate will continue to profit from book sales and a recent movie deal, and Ventura has a right to protect his reputation.

Taya Kyle's attorney had argued Ventura would be better off dropping the case, saying that going forward would give the perception that Ventura had little regard for loved ones of deceased war heroes.

The Associated Press contributed to this report

Source:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/21/jesse-ventura-lawsuit-vs-murdered-navy-seal-can-move-forward-judge-says/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+foxnews%2Fmost-popular+%28Internal+-+Most+Popular+Content%29#ixzz2ZmJs2KfY

[willwash]

I like JV for the most part but damn.

[angelatc]

The troop worshipers are going ballistic over this.

[Christian Liberty]

Well, I believe libel shouldn't be illegal, so I don't agree with Jesse Ventura here. Although, IIRC Ron Paul disagrees with me on this issue as well so Ventura is in good company.

That said, Kyle was a murderer so I have absolutely no respect for him whatsoever. And it wasn't like he was reluctant and later regretted it, he was actually proud of what he did. Which is disgusting.

Live by the Sword, die by the Sword.

[donnay]

Well, I believe libel shouldn't be illegal, so I don't agree with Jesse Ventura here. Although, IIRC Ron Paul disagrees with me on this issue as well so Ventura is in good company.

That said, Kyle was a murderer so I have absolutely no respect for him whatsoever. And it wasn't like he was reluctant and later regretted it, he was actually proud of what he did. Which is disgusting.

Live by the Sword, die by the Sword.

So it is okay for Kyle to go on television and radio defaming Jesse's name to make a buck?


It's interesting how Kyle's attorney tries to use the murder of Chris Kyle to halt Jesse from trying to clear his name, yet in the book (and in the interviews while promoting this book) Kyle bragged about murdering people, indiscriminately for the empire. I wonder if that sits well with Mrs. Kyle that the money she is making off this book is dripping with blood?

[RonPaulFanInGA]

So it is okay for Kyle to go on television and radio defaming Jesse's name to make a buck?

Dude is dead. Suing his widow is tacky.

[donnay]

Dude is dead. Suing his widow is tacky.

Well that is where you and I disagree. Kyle murdered plenty of people who were husbands and fathers too. I think that is despicable--but the empire and their minions call him a hero. Pffffffffft.

[juleswin]

I am sure the Kyle must have told the widow about the alleged encounter with Jesse and I wonder if Jesse will drop the suit if she came out and told the truth? As the say "the truth will set you free"

[Philhelm]

Ventura – who had his own nom de guerre -- “The Body” -- during his wrestling career and who famously appeared in “Predator,” a cult Hollywood classic – was not named in Kyle’s book, but instead therein referred to as “Scruff Face.”

Whoa! "Predator" is a cult classic? Bullshit, "Predator" is an outright classic.

[AngryCanadian]

The troop worshipers are going ballistic over this.

So are the War Mongers whom supported the Iraqi war and Bush in fact i was blocked by Bush supporters on the social media and its not facebook.

[donnay]

I am sure the Kyle must have told the widow about the alleged encounter with Jesse and I wonder if Jesse will drop the suit if she came out and told the truth? As the say "the truth will set you free"


Jesse is not in it for monetary gain--he specifically said he wants his name cleared.

[Christian Liberty]

So it is okay for Kyle to go on television and radio defaming Jesse's name to make a buck?



Not OK but its not aggression. So it shouldn't be illegal.

I agree with the following link on the issue of libel:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2008/12/walter-block/sue-for-libel/

It's interesting how Kyle's attorney tries to use the murder of Chris Kyle to halt Jesse from trying to clear his name, yet in the book (and in the interviews while promoting this book) Kyle bragged about murdering people, indiscriminately for the empire. I wonder if that sits well with Mrs. Kyle that the money she is making off this book is dripping with blood?

I took a brief look at that book once, its disgusting. I don't even care that Chris Kyle is dead, its completely irrelevant. Seeing as he's a murderer, and knowingly too, it was what he deserved. The only reason I disagree with Ventura is because libel is not a violation of the libertarian NAP (At least not in my opinion, IIRC Ron Paul does disagree with me on this so there does seem to be some room for debate) and so to sue Kyle for libel is inappropriate, IMO.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Dude is dead. Suing his widow is tacky.


He's suing the estate.

[mczerone]

Libel/Reputation Rights certainly wouldn't be actionable in LibPar, but there are two factors justifying Ventura's case here:

(1) Were not in LibPar. The game we're playing accepts libel as a legal case. To say that Ventura shouldn't use it is to take an ascetic stance, that one should never do anything that wouldn't be justified in utopia. This would lead you to disavow the use of roads, courts in general, police protection, the banking system, property titles, and everything else that the state currently provides via it's monopoly taxation.

I can't fault Ventura for playing the game as the game currently stands, even if he thinks the rules should be changed.

(2) Fraud. If we take Ventura's claims at face value, Kyle is selling a story as a true description of events and Ventura's role in those events was exaggerated/fallacious. In a system of market courts, there might be a cause of action to "set the record" of true events when someone is being lied about. Certainly Ventura could just publish his own version of events to let readers decide the truth, but he might also be judge to have standing to challenge the veracity of the non-fiction work as it pertains to his role in the story. We don't know how this would be handled, but it's not a stretch to imagine that people would value having books marketed as 'non-fiction' be as close to the true version of events as possible. And there might be a role for courts in issuing injunctions to stop falsities being spread as truth.

So Ventura's using the current laws to most closely approximate what might be viewed as justice in a free society without regard for reputation rights, even if the case is currently couched in those terms.

[mczerone]

Dude is dead. Suing his widow is tacky.

If the widow disavows any rights to payment from the sale of the book, then you might have a point. If she collects a paycheck from the (alleged) lies, then she's a proper person to sue.

[jbauer]

Dude is dead. Suing his widow is tacky.

They need to have a "defendant" what Jesse is doing is suing the estate of Kyle with her being the sole beneficiary.

[PSYOP]

Never understood the Jesse fever. Guy is a communist apologist and thus an enemy of liberty.

[Xenliad]

This video is relevant to the discussion.


http://youtu.be/_5wMoWyyao8

http://youtu.be/_5wMoWyyao8

For some reason I can't embed it here today.

[jkob]

I like Jesse but he's kind of a dick and a blowhard and that's why that claim by Kyle got so much attention. Continuing his lawsuit versus Kyle's widow just makes him look worse.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Over 2 million SERFS zombize themselves to this FOX 'The FIVE' each day. Anytime Fascist-Corporatist Media attacks a freedom person, we must stand behind that person


Here's a dose of Political Propaganda by the TV puppets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4P2fzR9dcA

[torchbearer]

I like Jesse but he's kind of a dick and a blowhard and that's why that claim by Kyle got so much attention. Continuing his lawsuit versus Kyle's widow just makes him look worse.

he actually explains why its continuing in a recent interview, and though i can't relay his message. i do recall it making sense.
the lawsuit isn't against the widow.

[donnay]

Never understood the Jesse fever. Guy is a communist apologist and thus an enemy of liberty.

You have anything to prove this?

[Lucille]

This video is relevant to the discussion.


http://youtu.be/_5wMoWyyao8

http://youtu.be/_5wMoWyyao8

For some reason I can't embed it here today.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5wMoWyyao8&feature=youtu.be

"How am I going to run for political office if I do decide to do that nationally with this hanging over my head? I was accused by this gentleman of treason-that's very serious. In fact it's a capital offense in the military. I want to clear my name."

[Philhelm]

Payback time!

[PSYOP]

You have anything to prove this?

Idk, maybe his obsession with Fidel Castro & Che Guevara?

[TaftFan]

Leave his damn widowed wife alone. Frankly I would trust Kyle's side of the story more than Ventura anyday.

[donnay]

Idk, maybe his obsession with Fidel Castro & Che Guevara?

In 2002, I got the opportunity to meet Fidel Castro. A few of America's sanctions against Cuba dealing with food and agricultural products had finally been lifted, so Minnesota was able to put together a trade mission for humanitarian purposes. Pres. Bush was very opposed to my going along, but I decided it was my right as a American citizen.
I'd grown up in fear of Fidel Castro. I was young when his revolution took place in 1959, but I remember the propaganda. I vaguely recall hearing about the Bay of Pigs invasion.

I met Castro at the trade fair. The first words out of his mouth were, "You are a man of great courage." I was puzzled; he looked at me and said, "You defied your president to come here." I guess he has pretty good "intel."

And I looked right back at him and said, "Well, Mr. President, you'll find that I defy most everything." I told him that I felt the U.S. boycott was wrong. It did nothing positive for either of our countries, and it was time for Americans to get over it.

Source:
http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Jesse_Ventura_Foreign_Policy.htm

As far as an 'obsession' with Che Guevara, I think that is pretty disingenuous. I heard him in an interview talk about what was it that pushed a medical doctor (Guevara) to become a revolutionary?

Jesse is controversial because he likes to step out of the box and think for himself. He doesn't mince his words and is a straight shooter lot's of people do like him because of that. For me, that is what I really like about him.

[Christian Liberty]

Libel/Reputation Rights certainly wouldn't be actionable in LibPar, but there are two factors justifying Ventura's case here:

(1) Were not in LibPar. The game we're playing accepts libel as a legal case. To say that Ventura shouldn't use it is to take an ascetic stance, that one should never do anything that wouldn't be justified in utopia. This would lead you to disavow the use of roads, courts in general, police protection, the banking system, property titles, and everything else that the state currently provides via it's monopoly taxation.

I can't fault Ventura for playing the game as the game currently stands, even if he thinks the rules should be changed.

(2) Fraud. If we take Ventura's claims at face value, Kyle is selling a story as a true description of events and Ventura's role in those events was exaggerated/fallacious. In a system of market courts, there might be a cause of action to "set the record" of true events when someone is being lied about. Certainly Ventura could just publish his own version of events to let readers decide the truth, but he might also be judge to have standing to challenge the veracity of the non-fiction work as it pertains to his role in the story. We don't know how this would be handled, but it's not a stretch to imagine that people would value having books marketed as 'non-fiction' be as close to the true version of events as possible. And there might be a role for courts in issuing injunctions to stop falsities being spread as truth.

So Ventura's using the current laws to most closely approximate what might be viewed as justice in a free society without regard for reputation rights, even if the case is currently couched in those terms.

I disagree with you, for pretty much the same reasons Walter Block described.

One could argue that Kyle himself is a murderer and thus any legal action against him, even for something he technically should not be punished for, is legitimate. I'd agree. If somebody killed my son and then claimed that he punched me in the face, and for some reason he was acquitted of #1 but was guilty in reality, I'd have no issue with suing him for libel.

That said, Chris Kyle is dead. I don't support nuremberg trials going down to the common soldier, but the bottom line is, in the grandest sense, Kyle has already gotten what he deserves. He's dead. He already paid the price for murder.

As for his widow, she's innocent, even if she makes money off libel, since libel should be legal.


Leave his damn widowed wife alone. Frankly I would trust Kyle's side of the story more than Ventura anyday.

Chris Kyle is an evil man. Jesse Ventura just isn't a libertarian. As shown by this lawsuit.

[donnay]

I disagree with you, for pretty much the same reasons Walter Block described.

One could argue that Kyle himself is a murderer and thus any legal action against him, even for something he technically should not be punished for, is legitimate. I'd agree. If somebody killed my son and then claimed that he punched me in the face, and for some reason he was acquitted of #1 but was guilty in reality, I'd have no issue with suing him for libel.

That said, Chris Kyle is dead. I don't support nuremberg trials going down to the common soldier, but the bottom line is, in the grandest sense, Kyle has already gotten what he deserves. He's dead. He already paid the price for murder.

As for his widow, she's innocent, even if she makes money off libel, since libel should be legal.



Chris Kyle is an evil man. Jesse Ventura just isn't a libertarian. As shown by this lawsuit.

Jesse doesn't claim to be with any political party. He said he would strictly run independent like Ross Perot.

[enhanced_deficit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5wMoWyyao8&feature=youtu.be

"How am I going to run for political office if I do decide to do that nationally with this hanging over my head? I was accused by this gentleman of treason-that's very serious. In fact it's a capital offense in the military. I want to clear my name."

So there is good chance we may see JV in politics again..

[Christian Liberty]

Jesse doesn't claim to be with any political party. He said he would strictly run independent like Ross Perot.

I'm not talking about parties. I'm saying that Ventura is showing that ideologically he is not libertarian because of his actions here. An ideological libertarian could not do this, as Walter Block correctly pointed out (As a note: I don't agree with this just because he said it, but because he is correct in this particular case.)

But that he isn't evil, that would be Chris Kyle. Chris Kyle is still the one I would describe as "Evil" in this case.

Not so much because he "Served" as that he was proud of it.

Live by the Sword, Die By the Sword. Its sad, its messy, but justice was done.

Ventura needs to back off now, the penalty for murder is death and Kyle already received that penalty.

[donnay]

I'm not talking about parties. I'm saying that Ventura is showing that ideologically he is not libertarian because of his actions here. An ideological libertarian could not do this, as Walter Block correctly pointed out (As a note: I don't agree with this just because he said it, but because he is correct in this particular case.)

But that he isn't evil, that would be Chris Kyle. Chris Kyle is still the one I would describe as "Evil" in this case.

Not so much because he "Served" as that he was proud of it.

Live by the Sword, Die By the Sword. Its sad, its messy, but justice was done.

Ventura needs to back off now, the penalty for murder is death and Kyle already received that penalty.

Yeah but his name is not cleared. Hard to run a political campaign with that LIE over your head!

[Christian Liberty]

Yeah but his name is not cleared. Hard to run a political campaign with that LIE over your head!

True, but libel shouldn't be illegal so Ventura has no case.

Read what Walter Block did when the same thing happened to him...

[donnay]

True, but libel shouldn't be illegal so Ventura has no case.

Read what Walter Block did when the same thing happened to him...


But libel is, and he does have a case! I get what you are saying...but you have to remember who someone like Ventura is trying to reach with his message of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[daviddee]

...

[jmdrake]

Dude is dead. Suing his widow is tacky.

Well technically he's not suing the widow. He's suing her husband's estate, an estate that was likely enriched at least somewhat thanks to the publicity generated by the controversy with Ventura. I helped a client once in a lawsuit against the estate. The opposing attorney was like "I can't believe he wants to take money from that poor widow." My response was "Remember neither my client nor your client is the alleged victim her. Should my client have to suffer because your client's husband may have done something wrong and then died?"

[Christian Liberty]

Dude, its strange that this very topic comes up on this forum.

I remember the other night when you had just finished blowing all of the guys in the bar... it totally matches with this. Aside from being impressed that you were able to get 17 guys off that quick, I think your comments on this issue were prophetic.

On another topic, did you ever get Valtrex for that nasty case of herpes you said you had? It was looking really rough:

http://www.herpes.com/images/man-herpes-lip-7.jpg

Well, I could always report you to the moderators if I saw fit. But I'll probably just settle for neg rep.

But saying that isn't something you should go to jail for.

[jmdrake]

Well, I could always report you to the moderators if I saw fit. But I'll probably just settle for neg rep.

But saying that isn't something you should go to jail for.

You don't go to prison for libel. You have to pay monetary damages if the plaintiff can prove you lied and prove the damages. Imagine this scenario. You're bidding on a contract. Someone else starts spreading lies about your previous work and not only do you lose the contract, but you have to spend money repairing your image in the community so that you can get more work. How is that damage any different than if that same person vandalized your equipment?

[BamaAla]

The case is a weird one. If I remember correctly, there was more support for Kyle's side of the story than for Jesse's. Beyond that, it'll be difficult for Jesse to prove any damages.

Personally, I think Ventura would be better off just dropping the case because it seems that he's getting worse pub from the lawsuit than he was from the claim in the book.

[donnay]

The case is a weird one. If I remember correctly, there was more support for Kyle's side of the story than for Jesse's. Beyond that, it'll be difficult for Jesse to prove any damages.

Personally, I think Ventura would be better off just dropping the case because it seems that he's getting worse pub from the lawsuit than he was from the claim in the book.

BUZZ...that is wrong. Jesse personally knows the bar owner, that Chris Kyle went around telling everyone he knocked Jesse out in. He will testify in Jesse's behalf. Plus he too, is an ex-Navy Seal.

[Christian Liberty]

You don't go to prison for libel. You have to pay monetary damages if the plaintiff can prove you lied and prove the damages. Imagine this scenario. You're bidding on a contract. Someone else starts spreading lies about your previous work and not only do you lose the contract, but you have to spend money repairing your image in the community so that you can get more work. How is that damage any different than if that same person vandalized your equipment?

Because one case is aggression and the other is not.

[BamaAla]

BUZZ...that is wrong. Jesse personally knows the bar owner, that Chris Kyle went around telling everyone he knocked Jesse out in. He will testify in Jesse's behalf. Plus he too, is an ex-Navy Seal.

I think there were several SEALs present that night that were going to testify to Kyle's story and 1 (not the owner) that was going to testify to Ventura's. Beyond that, what are the damages, and what is the monetary value thereof? Is that value worth more than the negative publicity coming from continuing the lawsuit?

[donnay]

I think there were several SEALs present that night that were going to testify to Kyle's story and 1 (not the owner) that was going to testify to Ventura's. Beyond that, what are the damages, and what is the monetary value thereof? Is that value worth more than the negative publicity coming from continuing the lawsuit?


The damages will be to clear his name. If he wins the deformation case, that should clear his name.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhjHWovwix4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU5MLcWXzfo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTUEjzM2b2I


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v43Syop_r7Q

[jmdrake]

Because one case is aggression and the other is not.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcScEjoo1xMWNX3pwH2Qt48DA0bvpZCky xwDyD59AEYa9wTfmR-0uw

1: a forceful action or procedure (as an unprovoked attack) especially when intended to dominate or master

2: the practice of making attacks or encroachments; especially : unprovoked violation by one country of the territorial integrity of another

3: hostile, injurious, or destructive behavior or outlook especially when caused by frustration

Let's see. Purposefully lying about someone in such a way that he loses a business opportunity counts as hostile, injurious and destructive behavior.

[BamaAla]

1: a forceful action or procedure (as an unprovoked attack) especially when intended to dominate or master

2: the practice of making attacks or encroachments; especially : unprovoked violation by one country of the territorial integrity of another

3: hostile, injurious, or destructive behavior or outlook especially when caused by frustration

Let's see. Purposefully lying about someone in such a way that he loses a business opportunity counts as hostile, injurious and destructive behavior.

Which business opportunity has Jesse lost as a result of Kyle's story? Wouldn't Jesse need to establish actual damages?

[jmdrake]

Which business opportunity has Jesse lost as a result of Kyle's story? Wouldn't Jesse need to establish actual damages?

I was talking about libel laws in general as opposed to the specifics of this case. As for Jesse's case, who knows. He could be going for a declaratory judgement. If he can prove in a court of law that Kyle was lying about him that might be worth more to him than actual monetary damages in general. Plus guys like Jesse have a million dollar ego.

[BamaAla]

I was talking about libel laws in general as opposed to the specifics of this case. As for Jesse's case, who knows. He could be going for a declaratory judgement. If he can prove in a court of law that Kyle was lying about him that might be worth more to him than actual monetary damages in general. Plus guys like Jesse have a million dollar ego.

I totally agree about libel.

I like Jesse, but I'm not sure about continuing this case; I'm assuming it is ego driven. I haven't read about the case, but I guess he's going after Kyle's estate for libe per se. That said, he may clear his name of the original claim (that remains to be seen,) but it seems like the negative press coming from continuing the case is worse than the original claim, which 99% of the Earth's population had already forgotten about.

[jmdrake]

I totally agree about libel.

I like Jesse, but I'm not sure about continuing this case; I'm assuming it is ego driven. I haven't read about the case, but I guess he's going after Kyle's estate for libe per se. That said, he may clear his name of the original claim (that remains to be seen,) but it seems like the negative press coming from continuing the case is worse than the original claim, which 99% of the Earth's population had already forgotten about.

Oh I agree. If I were advising him I'd drop the suit for PR reasons. If they're going to make a movie out of Kyle's life I would privately negotiate that the "I hit Jesse Ventura bar scene" be completely excised including any scene of Kyle hitting anybody in a bar for badmouthing a dead comrade so that nobody could come back and say "That scene is really about Jesse Ventura even if they changed the name." Who knows? Maybe he tried to negotiate and the other side wouldn't go along? That said, if I thought Ventura would listen to my advice I would have told him to run against Al Franken for senate when he was leading in the polls despite being an 9/11 truther. A senator Jesse Ventura would be quite interesting these days. ;)

[RickyJ]

Dude is dead. Suing his widow is tacky.

This isn't about money with Ventura, this is about clearing his name in a court of law. He could care less about any monetary award, he just wants his name cleared.

[daviddee]

...

[daviddee]

...

[dannno]

I have mixed feelings on the underlying issue but I'm still rooting for Jesse Ventura in this case.

[HOLLYWOOD]

I have made my point.

Libel laws are there to prevent people from spreading b.s. that you have to waste your time defending against.


Extrapolate this to Jesse Ventura who has to defend his reputation (on many levels) because some douche bag decided to spin bullshit tales to pump up his book sales. Jesse's image is that of a bad ass and a patriot... i.e. "The Body", "Navy Seal", etc.

No one goes to jail as it is a CIVIL TORT, but one's reputation takes years/decades to build and someone who damages a reputation should suffer the consequences of their actions. Everyone is free to say what they want, but if it is untrue and damaging then that free speech has a cost.Reputation is everything in America today and especially in politics, so it is very damaging. When the corporate media teleprompter trolls and paid propaganda pundits are hosting Kyle to spew his lies, slamming Ventura, it's very damaging as a political figure and a public host. US political opponents use the slightest controversy and distorted by Fascist corporate media to destroy threats to the rigged political system.

Jesse Ventura and anyone who was slandered by Kyle and his lies, should sue his estate.

[Red Green]

OK well to all the people who are saying "libel should not be against the law", I think it should not be a statutory law but rather left in the realm of common law.

I think if Kyle did slander JV to hock a book, then the proceeds from that book are fair game, as well as any other ill-gotten gains that might come out of this. I think probably what JV will be looking for (since he's not really in need of cash) is to get his legal fees paid for and a retraction campaign paid for out of Kyle's estate. The other advantage of a lawsuit is that it provides JV the ability to subpoena witnesses who were claimed to have knowledge of the incident in question.

If I were JV I would be pissed, provided this is all a lie and yeah he is well within his rights to go after this guy's estate, widow be damned. If the guy was a sociopathic liar then she's bearing the fruits of a poor choice in husbands.

[Xenliad]

Interesting that they're painting it as war hero vs politician even though JV was in the military too.

[BlackTerrel]

Why is everyone so certain Kyle is the liar when more Navy Seals who were there back him up than Ventura?

It also strikes me as odd that Kyle would completely make up an event and get a bunch of his seal buddies to lie for him. "Hey guys I'm going to go on national TV and say I punched out Jesse Ventura - all of y'all please lie for me ok".

[Christian Liberty]

But libel is, and he does have a case! I get what you are saying...but you have to remember who someone like Ventura is trying to reach with his message of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

He's a 9/11 truther for crying out loud. A claim that he's doing this because he's playing the game is absolutely ridiculous.

He just doesn't agree with me that libel should be legal. Which is fine, I guess, it seems like most of you here disagree with me as well.


https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcScEjoo1xMWNX3pwH2Qt48DA0bvpZCky xwDyD59AEYa9wTfmR-0uw

1: a forceful action or procedure (as an unprovoked attack) especially when intended to dominate or master

2: the practice of making attacks or encroachments; especially : unprovoked violation by one country of the territorial integrity of another

3: hostile, injurious, or destructive behavior or outlook especially when caused by frustration

Let's see. Purposefully lying about someone in such a way that he loses a business opportunity counts as hostile, injurious and destructive behavior.

By that definition, it might apply, but so would shouting "I hate you you (n)" to a black person. Which would clearly be hostile, maybe even injurious, but would clearly fall under the 1st Amendment.

Words are not aggression unless they are outright, immediately, clearly and presently dangerous threats. Everything else is just fluff.




I have made my point.

Libel laws are there to prevent people from spreading b.s. that you have to waste your time defending against.

In this case, you had to waste your time responding to my outright lies and then the effort to give me a "neg". You may have also lost a potential job, wife, sugar mama/daddy, etc. from my libel. Who knows.

None of which was necessary and you suffered lost time due to my intentionally false words/actions against your good name.

Extrapolate this to Jesse Ventura who has to defend his reputation (on many levels) because some douche bag decided to spin bullshit tales to pump up his book sales. Jesse's image is that of a bad ass and a patriot... i.e. "The Body", "Navy Seal", etc.

No one goes to jail as it is a CIVIL TORT, but one's reputation takes years/decades to build and someone who damages a reputation should suffer the consequences of their actions. Everyone is free to say what they want, but if it is untrue and damaging then that free speech has a cost.

You made your point that libel sucks. No freaking duh. Nobody is "defending" libel here.

You'll note that I never actually responded to your accusations.

As Murray Rothbard correctly points out, and Walter Block quotes in the article that I linked, reputation is simply what other people think about you. And you can't own other people's thoughts. Thus, you can't own your own reputation.

Also, regarding that last sentence, its just an end-around way of saying that you don't believe in freedom of speech. Technically you can do pretty much anything you want if you're willing to pay the price. Does that make us "Free"? I didn't think so.

I have mixed feelings on the underlying issue but I'm still rooting for Jesse Ventura in this case.

I'm not. If this were actually against Chris Kyle I would (Any small way we can get back at murderers I'm cool with, particularly murderers who are pompous and proud rather than regretting their life decisions like many in the military do) but he's already dead. His widow is not guilty for his actions. And Ventura does not deserve a dime for somebody attacking his reputation, since in a free country, attacking someone's reputation is not a crime.

Now, does that mean I now don't support Ventura? Of course not. At least not because of that issue. In Ron Paul's well known speech in South Carolina, where he correctly stands firm on the heroin legalization issue, he nonetheless caves on libel. I still support Ron Paul despite that one, maybe two percent of the time where we come to different conclusions.

Ventura is much more economically left though, and much more liberal on social issues rather than being straight libertarian (If you can tell the difference: he kind of has a bit of a Gary Johnson feel in general). I'd vote for Ventura in a pinch, but I'd prefer Rand Paul.

But not just because of this.

That said, despite the fact that I generally like Ventura, I'm still hoping he loses this case. Not because I believe Kyle (I don't), but because libel should not be a crime. I'm standing on that and I'm rooting against Ventura for that reason.

[Peace&Freedom]

Ron's 'caving' on libel brings up the hypothetical: If somebody had libeled the veteran Ron Paul in a similar manner, such that it could have been used to deflate his candidacies for President, and Paul chose to litigate, would there be such hostile acrimony over Paul going to court, as we see in this thread over Ventura doing so? Is this just another instance of "we like Paul" vs "we don't like Jesse" double standards?

I don't defend all of Ventura's positions or actions, but think most of the other friendly-to-liberty figures in Congress right now are equally a mixed bag or good and bad positions. The special scrutiny given to Jesse's moves seems to be preponderantly driven by some people's dislike of his 9-11 stance or personality.

[Christian Liberty]

OK well to all the people who are saying "libel should not be against the law", I think it should not be a statutory law but rather left in the realm of common law.

I don't think it should be against any type of law. By all means, boycott the libelers, refuse to listen to them or deal with them. But using any form of physical violence against them or their property is unjustified.

As Walter Block points out, it is acceptable to use a bad law like this in order to get someone who deserves punishment for a violation of the NAP that the law allowed them to get away with. So if Kyle were still alive, he would be fair game. But since he's dead, he's already paid the cost for his actions (Murder, not libel, as the latter is not an NAP violation) and his widow is still innocent.


Ron's 'caving' on libel brings up the hypothetical: If somebody had libeled the veteran Ron Paul in a similar manner, such that it could have been used to deflate his candidacies for President, and Paul chose to litigate, would there be such hostile acrimony over Paul going to court, as we see in this thread over Ventura doing so? Is this just another instance of "we like Paul" vs "we don't like Jesse" double standards?


Well, if you look at the whole package, rather than just one issue, Ron Paul is a much better candidate than Ventura. Ventura is basically Gary Johnson with a few gimmicks, and even less certainty of what his inconsistent positions are. I don't say this to attack Ventura, but he's not a stable candidate. He knows he isn't part of the establishment, which is enough reason that I'd likely vote for him in a pinch, but I'm honestly not a big fan. Don't pretend that Ventura is Ron Paul with a 9/11 gimmick. He's not.

As for this issue, however, my stance would be the same. I'd be rooting against Ron Paul. Yeah, I'd still support him of course. Protecting libelers isn't exactly my #1 priority. But I'd still hope Ron Paul lost the illegitimate lawsuit, since he would have no right to sue.

That said, I suppose saying that he "caved" probably isn't fair. He likely just disagrees with me. Ron Paul doesn't really "cave" on stuff. So I shouldn't have said it that way.

[fr33]

Ron's 'caving' on libel brings up the hypothetical: If somebody had libeled the veteran Ron Paul in a similar manner, such that it could have been used to deflate his candidacies for President, and Paul chose to litigate, would there be such hostile acrimony over Paul going to court, as we see in this thread over Ventura doing so? Is this just another instance of "we like Paul" vs "we don't like Jesse" double standards?

I don't defend all of Ventura's positions or actions, but think most of the other friendly-to-liberty figures in Congress right now are equally a mixed bag or good and bad positions. The special scrutiny given to Jesse's moves seems to be preponderantly driven by some people's dislike of his 9-11 stance or personality.

I guess you missed all the topics about Ron Paul vs ronpaul.com?

It's not exactly the same issue but compared to those you have yet to see much hostile acrimony in this topic.

[BlackTerrel]

Ron's 'caving' on libel brings up the hypothetical: If somebody had libeled the veteran Ron Paul in a similar manner, such that it could have been used to deflate his candidacies for President, and Paul chose to litigate, would there be such hostile acrimony over Paul going to court, as we see in this thread over Ventura doing so? Is this just another instance of "we like Paul" vs "we don't like Jesse" double standards?

I don't defend all of Ventura's positions or actions, but think most of the other friendly-to-liberty figures in Congress right now are equally a mixed bag or good and bad positions. The special scrutiny given to Jesse's moves seems to be preponderantly driven by some people's dislike of his 9-11 stance or personality.

Likely because some people may believe Jesse is the one lying, then suing for libel on top of it.

Kind of like Lance Armstrong and Ryan Braun did.

Who knows? But I find it incredibly unlikely that Kyle would just one day decide to make up this story and get a bunch of his Navy Seal buddies to back him up on it. A lot to lose with very little to gain. He didn't need to mention Ventura's name to sell.

[torchbearer]

Likely because some people may believe Jesse is the one lying, then suing for libel on top of it.

Kind of like Lance Armstrong and Ryan Braun did.

Who knows? But I find it incredibly unlikely that Kyle would just one day decide to make up this story and get a bunch of his Navy Seal buddies to back him up on it. A lot to lose with very little to gain. He didn't need to mention Ventura's name to sell.


guess you never heard a fish story.

[donnay]

Likely because some people may believe Jesse is the one lying, then suing for libel on top of it.

Kind of like Lance Armstrong and Ryan Braun did.

Who knows? But I find it incredibly unlikely that Kyle would just one day decide to make up this story and get a bunch of his Navy Seal buddies to back him up on it. A lot to lose with very little to gain. He didn't need to mention Ventura's name to sell.

The bar owner (Ex-Navy Seal), of the alleged altercation is an old friend of Jesse. In Kyle's book, he did not name Jesse name per se (I believe Kyle called him Old Gruff Face), it was the radio and TV interviews that he made this claim using Jesse's name while promoting his book and bragging about murdering people for the empire.

[AngryCanadian]

The bar owner (Ex-Navy Seal), of the alleged altercation is an old friend of Jesse. In Kyle's book, he did not name Jesse name per se (I believe Kyle called him Old Gruff Face), it was the radio and TV interviews that he made this claim using Jesse's name while promoting his book and bragging about murdering people for the empire.


it was the radio and TV interviews that he made this claim using Jesse's name while promoting his book and bragging about murdering people for the empire.

And thats why NeoCons love him.

[BamaAla]

The bar owner (Ex-Navy Seal), of the alleged altercation is an old friend of Jesse. In Kyle's book, he did not name Jesse name per se (I believe Kyle called him Old Gruff Face), it was the radio and TV interviews that he made this claim using Jesse's name while promoting his book and bragging about murdering people for the empire.


Are you sure that the bar owner is backing Jesse's story? I've only seen the name Bill DeWitt backing Jesse's story and the owner of the bar is McPill or something like that. Kyle had a number of SEALs that were there that night backing his story.

[donnay]

Are you sure that the bar owner is backing Jesse's story? I've only seen the name Bill DeWitt backing Jesse's story and the owner of the bar is McPill or something like that. Kyle had a number of SEALs that were there that night backing his story.


Back in February, Kyle filed a petition to have the case moved to U.S. District Court in St. Paul. Ventura considered dropping the case but after being contacted by several prominent former US Navy Seals, was “ordered” to go ahead with the lawsuit after Kyle failed to agree to a settlement that would have seen him admit to lying and pay attorney fees.

One of those ex-SEALs is Ventura’s former instructor, the widely respected Terry “Mother” Moy, owner of the bar where the incident is alleged to have occurred.

After investigating the incident, Moy and his fellow SEALs confirmed that the event never took place and that Kyle had invented it to generate publicity for his book.

Source:
http://www.infowars.com/jesse-ventura-gets-backing-of-former-seals-in-lawsuit-over-punch-hoax/

[BamaAla]

I'm seeing McP's being owned by a Greg McPartlin rather than a Terry Moy.

Edit:

I just caught that Moy "investigated" the incident, hearsay is not admissible. I believe the individuals that were backing Kyle's story were ther on the night in question.

[donnay]

I'm seeing McP's being owned by a Greg McPartlin rather than a Terry Moy.

Edit:

I just caught that Moy "investigated" the incident, hearsay is not admissible. I believe the individuals that were backing Kyle's story were ther on the night in question.


Yeah, I looked it up it says Greg McPartlin.


Another article has it right:

“I want to to clear his name because he’s confessing to assaulting me, and it didn’t happen,” Ventura told the Alex Jones Show, adding “I can unequivocally tell you I’ve never been punched in Coronado, California.”

Ventura explained that the owner of the bar in question, McP’s Irish Pub & Grill, was a close friend of his and that anyone was free to call him up and confirm that the alleged incident never took place.

“If a former Governor within the SEAL community had been knocked down and hit and assaulted, it would have traveled through the SEAL community like wildfire,” said Ventura, pointing out how “absurd” it was for the incident only to come to light almost six years later.

Ventura also emphasized how, “you’re never at McP’s alone, you’re there with your team mates, your classmates….there’ll be at least five or six guys with you, I would sure like to hear of a witness that saw this event because it never happened.”

Source:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/103424.html

[Christian Liberty]

I guess you missed all the topics about Ron Paul vs ronpaul.com?

It's not exactly the same issue but compared to those you have yet to see much hostile acrimony in this topic.

I never totally understood that issue.

I'll admit, I like Ron Paul better than I like Ventura. Ron Paul is right on issues somewhere between 97-99% of the time. Ventura... not so much.

But that's irrelevant here.

I don't think I agree with Ron Paul on the website thing either, to my understanding.

[Pericles]

Are you sure that the bar owner is backing Jesse's story? I've only seen the name Bill DeWitt backing Jesse's story and the owner of the bar is McPill or something like that. Kyle had a number of SEALs that were there that night backing his story.

In any case, this is the idiot move of the week.

[BlackTerrel]

guess you never heard a fish story.

If I made up a fish story I wouldn't make it while claiming that a bunch of other people were there - I'd say no one else saw it. That's usually how it works.

From what I've read Kyle has people who were there who are backing him.

Ventura has buddies who weren't there and investigated it.

Seems shady.

Honestly don't care much either way. Just unclear why 90% of the posts here are backing Ventura's side based on the evidence. I don't like that sort of group think. There's at least a decent chance Kyle is honest here.

And yeah of course infowars is going to back their guy.