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View Full Version : Kokesh interview on FOX [VIDEO]




noneedtoaggress
07-19-2013, 02:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD5FMZb-AL0

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/22879607/activist-kokesh-will-run-for-president-to-abolish-us-government#ixzz2ZRrf0FAB


Activist Adam Kokesh will run for President to abolish U.S. government

FAIRFAX, Va. -
Anti-government activist Adam Kokesh, who is currently jailed on drug charges and is facing a firearms charge in D.C., says he will someday run for President on a platform of abolishing the federal government.

Since July 9th, 31-year old Adam Kokesh has been incarcerated in a cell in the Fairfax County jail which measures seven by seven-and-a-half feet.

On Independence Day, Kokesh had a colleague record a video of the pro-gun activist loading a shotgun on D.C.'s Freedom Plaza. The District has strict gun control laws that generally forbid the carrying of firearms. U.S. Park Police and D.C.'s Metropolitan Police Department opened an investigation.

Several days later, U.S. Park Police used a flash grenade when their SWAT team served a search warrant at Kokesh's home in Herndon, Va. Kokesh was arrested when officers said they found hallucinogenic mushrooms at the house.

In an exclusive jailhouse interview, Adam Kokesh denies any connection to the drugs. Here is part of the transcript of that interview with Kokesh: "If they found a stash of magic mushrooms in my house, they were not mine. ANY IDEA WHOSE THEY WERE, OR WHY THEY WERE IN YOUR HOUSE? I'm pretty confident that, whether or not they found anything, the full paper bags that [U.S. Park Police] brought into my house would insure that they had charges to bring against me. ARE YOU IMPLYING THAT THOSE DRUGS WERE PLANTED? Yes."

Kokesh, who has been arrested several times before by U.S. Park Police, says that agency has a "vendetta" against him, but he believes the evidence in the drug case is weak.

Federal officers have now filed a weapons charge against Kokesh for wielding the shotgun in D.C. on the Fourth of July. Here's more of the interview: "WAS IT A REAL SHOTGUN AND WERE THEY REAL SHELLS GOING INTO IT? Yes. ON THE VIDEO YOU POSTED? Yes. YOU DID KNOW THAT WAS ILLEGAL IN D.C.? It's called civil disobedience."

Adam Kokesh believes the Second Amendment to the Constitution will provide him a successful defense against the D.C. gun charge.

The former U.S. Marine who served in Iraq plans to someday bring his anti-government views before voters. "ARE YOU RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT? Yes sir, in 2020 on the platform of: orderly dissolution of the United States government. WHY IS THAT A GOOD IDEA? Why is having a federal government a good idea at this point?"

Adam Kokesh believes the U.S. military is more harmful than helpful to American security, and the government -- as a whole -- has burdened its citizenry with debt.

Adam Kokesh is 70% disabled from his term of military service. He says he lives only on that money.

His supporters, through their website, adamvstheman.com, are asking supporters to send money for bail and send money so a private attorney can be hired. Kokesh is currently being represented by a public defender.

Kokesh remains in custody in the Fairfax County Adult Detention Center, and, if he is freed on bond, he faces extradition to D.C. to face the gun charge.

mczerone
07-19-2013, 02:18 PM
Too bad there's not the raw footage from the interview on their site - I'd like to see what hit the cutting room floor (especially the clip they played without audio where Adam is addressing the camera directly).

Overall, a decently fair interview, and it looks like Adam is taking care of himself on the inside.

LukeP
07-19-2013, 02:26 PM
How exactly is Adam 70% disabled and doesn't he think it's hypocritical to be living off of Federal disability payments and also want to abolish the Federal government?

JK/SEA
07-19-2013, 02:28 PM
How exactly is Adam 70% disabled and doesn't he think it's hypocritical to be living off of Federal disability payments and also want to abolish the Federal government?

2 ways of looking at it. Gets disability money, uses it to fight the system.

JK/SEA
07-19-2013, 02:28 PM
//

LukeP
07-19-2013, 02:30 PM
What would Ron Paul do?

JK/SEA
07-19-2013, 02:31 PM
What would Ron Paul do?

to what?

LukeP
07-19-2013, 02:36 PM
I don't know Adam personally so I really shouldn't try and judge him. But I wonder to what extent one can justify reckless behavior through liberty logic? I have found that in life it's easy to make excuses for oneself. I wish him the best and realize he is enduring much difficultly in the name of Liberty. I just wonder if he wouldn't be so much more effective if he just got his life together and stayed out of trouble.

brandon
07-19-2013, 02:36 PM
Kokesh lives in a fucking mansion in an extremely expensive area, meanwhile collecting federal disability and soliciting "donations" online? Scum bag. Wow.

VBRonPaulFan
07-19-2013, 02:40 PM
How exactly is Adam 70% disabled and doesn't he think it's hypocritical to be living off of Federal disability payments and also want to abolish the Federal government?

It isn't his fault that was part of the deal he got when he was enlisted. Do you think he really gives a shit about the disability check when his end goal is to dissolve the fedGov, which would take away that check anyways?

LukeP
07-19-2013, 02:47 PM
It isn't his fault that was part of the deal he got when he was enlisted. Do you think he really gives a shit about the disability check when his end goal is to dissolve the fedGov, which would take away that check anyways?

Lol, totally illogical.

mad cow
07-19-2013, 02:54 PM
How exactly is Adam 70% disabled and doesn't he think it's hypocritical to be living off of Federal disability payments and also want to abolish the Federal government?

I did not know this,you can look at him and see he is not 70% disabled.

I support Adam for this 2nd amendment civil disobedience in particular and most of his positions on other matters in general but there is no way I can justify putting his collecting 70% disability anywhere but in the minus column.

jkr
07-19-2013, 02:57 PM
i wish i had a time machine...

Adam vs tha man
Freedom watch
Southern avenger
Reality check


one way or another, all gone

it was a good time to fight the system...

JK/SEA
07-19-2013, 03:11 PM
Kokesh lives in a fucking mansion in an extremely expensive area, meanwhile collecting federal disability and soliciting "donations" online? Scum bag. Wow.

well golly, nice to see Jesus posting in here.

Welcome oh perfect one.

presence
07-19-2013, 06:11 PM
i wish i had a time machine...

Adam vs tha man
Freedom watch
Southern avenger
Reality check


one way or another, all gone

it was a good time to fight the system...


Ain't that the truth.

paulbot24
07-19-2013, 06:18 PM
I did not know this,you can look at him and see he is not 70% disabled.

I support Adam for this 2nd amendment civil disobedience in particular and most of his positions on other matters in general but there is no way I can justify putting his collecting 70% disability anywhere but in the minus column.

What else can you tell just by looking at a man?

torchbearer
07-19-2013, 06:34 PM
heavily edited.

amy31416
07-19-2013, 06:41 PM
What else can you tell just by looking at a man?

Well, there was all that dancing in DC, getting thrown down by cops and not being in agonizing pain--and generally looking like he works out quite often. Maybe it's a mental disability?

Didn't know they did that by percentages though.

presence
07-19-2013, 06:49 PM
Well, there was all that dancing in DC, getting thrown down by cops and not being in agonizing pain--and generally looking like he works out quite often. Maybe it's a mental disability?

Didn't know they did that by percentages though.



Adam suffers from PTSD related to Fallujah and has been public about this in the past; he ran a support group for a little while for PTSD sufferers.

on treating PTSD w/ Marijuana instead of the 5 scripts he got from the VA with suicide as a side effect
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NMdcE8nAK0

amy31416
07-19-2013, 06:51 PM
Adam suffers from PTSD related to Fallujah and has been public about this in the past.

That makes sense. A physical disability doesn't.

Peace Piper
07-19-2013, 07:00 PM
Kokesh lives in a fucking mansion in an extremely expensive area, meanwhile collecting federal disability and soliciting "donations" online? Scum bag. Wow.

Here's an inside view of Adam's "Mansion":

The Aftermath: Inside the Raid of Adam Kokesh's House!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5wJ-lVbGP8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5wJ-lVbGP8

Published on Jul 18, 2013
Step inside a Federal SWAT Raid and the aftermath with the AVTM crew.
http://www.youtube.com/user/AdamKokesh/videos

tangent4ronpaul
07-19-2013, 07:04 PM
What would Ron Paul do?

Go swimming...

http://blog.twowholecakes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/scrooge-mcduck.jpg

:D

-t

Brett85
07-19-2013, 07:09 PM
Man, this guy needs help. I hope that the liberals and neocons don't try to connect Rand to him in 2016.

LibertyEagle
07-19-2013, 07:16 PM
He's 70% disabled?

LukeP
07-19-2013, 07:32 PM
Well I guess no one is expected to take his statement that he is running for President seriously but clearly no one disabled 70% whether mentally/emotionally or physically would ever be considered fit for the presidency.

amy31416
07-19-2013, 07:37 PM
Well I guess no one is expected to take his statement that he is running for President seriously but clearly no one disabled 70% whether mentally/emotionally or physically would ever be considered fit for the presidency.

Given that he's worked for RT, along with having his own show--how does he still qualify as disabled? Anyone know?

qh4dotcom
07-19-2013, 07:42 PM
How exactly is Adam 70% disabled and doesn't he think it's hypocritical to be living off of Federal disability payments and also want to abolish the Federal government?

I didn't know that and I have sent him donations....no more donations from me...I still support him though, just not financially anymore in the future.

presence
07-19-2013, 07:47 PM
Given that he's worked for RT, along with having his own show--how does he still qualify as disabled? Anyone know?

His show is registered as a not profit and I'm pretty sure its a "break even" venture; sans the "equipment" he's been collecting. Not sure on what he was paid for RT news. I don't believe VA benefits are related to emlployement; just "% disability" not "% employability". For 70% disabled due to military service, single without children, he should take in $1293/mo. The way I understand VA benefits he gets that even if he earns a million dollars per year. I take a "don't hate the player, hate the game" outlook on VA disability. He says he can't sleep and reaches for his gun during panic attacks: VA says here's $1300/mo and some sleeping pills.

Czolgosz
07-19-2013, 07:49 PM
He's using what he was guaranteed at one point, by contract, to end the federal government.


Flush this imperial turd any way we can, w/ anybody willing to do the work.

amy31416
07-19-2013, 07:53 PM
His show is registered as a not profit and I'm pretty sure its a "break even" venture; sans the "equipment" he's been collecting. Not sure on what he was paid for RT news. I don't believe VA benefits are related to emlployement; just "% disability" not "% employability". For 70% disabled due to military service, single without children, he should take in $1293/mo. The way I understand VA benefits he gets that even if he earns a million dollars per year. I take a "don't hate the player, hate the game" outlook on VA disability. He says he can't sleep and reaches for his gun during panic attacks: VA says here's $1300/mo and some sleeping pills.

Christ. My mother worked her entire life as a nurse, saw some horrific carnage and dealt with losses like most people couldn't imagine, and she got about $1,200/month in SS for a brief period before she died.

She was a chump for actually working her ass off all her life, I guess.

brandon
07-19-2013, 08:01 PM
Thinking back to all the threads posted here about welfare whores abusing the system it's really pretty shitty that the worst offender is one who portrays themselves as a leader of our philosophy. This should really be a headline across the land; a testimony to the absurdity of our welfare system. A single 30 year old unemployed man living solely on the government dole, who has not had or sought a job in many years, buys luxury mansion in DC metro area.

http://i.imgur.com/seO1Mnt.png

presence
07-19-2013, 08:04 PM
5, 4 and a door?

amy31416
07-19-2013, 08:06 PM
Thinking back to all the threads posted here about welfare whores abusing the system it's really pretty shitty that the worst offender is one who portends to be a leader of our philosophy. This should really be a headline across the land; a testimony to the absurdity of our welfare system. A single 30 year old unemployed man living solely on the government dole, who has not had or sought a job in many years, buys luxury mansion in DC metro area.

http://i.imgur.com/seO1Mnt.png

Holy shit, that place had to have cost 2 million or more in that area. How in the world did he get that sort of money? I don't think he's had a job since he was in the military, right?

Barrex
07-19-2013, 08:08 PM
I am pretty sure he would give back those checks if government would give him back his calm sleep, get rid of his nightmares, panic attacks, PTSD and all other symptoms that he suffers from because government sent him on war for oil, distraction...

Just to be clear: Are some of you arguing that government should let veterans and soldiers who have suicidal tendencies, panick attacks PSTD on the streets to die? (i know it sounds bombastic and in your face but it is honest question)

P.s.

A lot of people that I know (relatives, neghbours, friends...) have PTSD.

P.p.s.

That house in my country would be like 100.000 euros. It is nothing special. 70%+ of people have houses like that. Why is it so expensive in US?

Feeding the Abscess
07-19-2013, 08:10 PM
Holy shit, that place had to have cost 2 million or more in that area. How in the world did he get that sort of money? I don't think he's had a job since he was in the military, right?

His dad is wealthy.

Walter Block has discussed welfare/government payouts and their relation to libertarianism numerous times. People should give him a read in that area.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 08:15 PM
How exactly is Adam 70% disabled and doesn't he think it's hypocritical to be living off of Federal disability payments and also want to abolish the Federal government?

Do you have a problem with contractual obligations?

brandon
07-19-2013, 08:17 PM
Holy shit, that place had to have cost 2 million or more in that area. How in the world did he get that sort of money? I don't think he's had a job since he was in the military, right?

Because I'm incredibly bored I just did a search on comparable homes in Fairfax and it looks like it might have been closer to 900k. Still though... I will work my whole life and be lucky to ever afford half of that.

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4873-Annamohr-Dr-Fairfax-VA-22030/52840542_zpid/

amy31416
07-19-2013, 08:18 PM
I am pretty sure he would give back those checks if government would give him back his calm sleep, get rid of his nightmares, panic attacks, PTSD and all other symptoms that he suffers from because government sent him on war for oil, distraction...

Just to be clear: Are some of you arguing that government should let veterans and soldiers who have suicidal tendencies, panick attacks PSTD on the streets to die? (i know it sounds bombastic and in your face but it is honest question)

1. I doubt he's suicidal.
2. I doubt he'd give up the checks if he didn't have PTSD (what event caused the PTSD?)
3. He ain't going to be out on the streets, ever.
4. I don't think higher of someone just because they served in the military.

My great uncle served in WWII for many years, he had PTSD--our family took care of him.

I do not trust Kokesh, I haven't for a while and I've kept my mouth shut just in case I was wrong--I don't think I'm wrong anymore.

Occam's Banana
07-19-2013, 08:18 PM
[...] doesn't he think it's hypocritical to be living off of Federal disability payments and also want to abolish the Federal government?

Yeah! And I bet the bastard drives on public roads, too!

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 08:18 PM
I just wonder if he wouldn't be so much more effective if he just got his life together and stayed out of trouble.

Because that is everything and anything that we need to do. Just get in line. Either for the handouts or the wages stolen. Just get in line and stay outta trouble.

amy31416
07-19-2013, 08:18 PM
Because I'm incredibly bored I just did a search on comparable homes in Fairfax and it looks like it might have been closer to 900k. Still though... I will work my whole life and be lucky to ever afford half of that.

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4873-Annamohr-Dr-Fairfax-VA-22030/52840542_zpid/

Oh....I thought he was in Alexandria for some reason, Fairfax is more "affordable."

SeanTX
07-19-2013, 08:21 PM
If he really saw any real combat I'd have no problem with him getting disability pay. It's a well-known fact though that many veterans who were nowhere near direct combat are getting paid for "PTSD." I assume he's not one of the fakers, if so it's really his business how much disability pay he gets. Though some of the neocons here seem to have a problem with it.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 08:21 PM
Lol, totally illogical.

http://cassandraparkin.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/spock-facepalm.png

Fredom101
07-19-2013, 08:26 PM
How exactly is Adam 70% disabled and doesn't he think it's hypocritical to be living off of Federal disability payments and also want to abolish the Federal government?

This. But, I'm not entirely against him getting that money. One, he got fucked over by the gov't, two, I'm up for bleeding the system dry, and three, he's using the money for better things than the gov't would. But yeah, I agree with your point about the hypocrisy here.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 08:27 PM
I did not know this,you can look at him and see he is not 70% disabled.

I support Adam for this 2nd amendment civil disobedience in particular and most of his positions on other matters in general but there is no way I can justify putting his collecting 70% disability anywhere but in the minus column.

Many factors go into disability determinations. Are you a vet?

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 08:30 PM
Man, this guy needs help. I hope that the liberals and neocons don't try to connect Rand to him in 2016.

Your script is getting stale.

Occam's Banana
07-19-2013, 08:31 PM
How exactly is Adam 70% disabled [...]

Go ask the Feds. It's their classification, not Adam's.

(Good luck with getting a sane & rational answer, though.)

brandon
07-19-2013, 08:36 PM
He volunteered to join the military and he's not fucking disabled. My grandfather landed on the banks of Normandy, killed who knows how many Nazis in one of the deadliest battles of the century, and came home and went back to work selling fur coats for the next 30 years. What did Adam see? Someone lose an arm or leg? A dead person or two? AFAIK he wasn't involved in any major battle.

Yea we should take care of our soldiers who are disabled mentally or physically but it couldn't be any more clear that Adam is just milking the system.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 08:36 PM
He's 70% disabled?

Are you a vet? Ever dealt with the V.A.?

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 08:38 PM
I didn't know that and I have sent him donations....no more donations from me...I still support him though, just not financially anymore in the future.

That's a shame. His output will far exceed the input from those he is fighting against.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 08:41 PM
Christ. My mother worked her entire life as a nurse, saw some horrific carnage and dealt with losses like most people couldn't imagine, and she got about $1,200/month in SS for a brief period before she died.

She was a chump for actually working her ass off all her life, I guess.

Was your mother threatened with death or death of co-workers on a daily basis? Quite a different scenario Amy.

Barrex
07-19-2013, 08:41 PM
1. I doubt he's suicidal.
2. I doubt he'd give up the checks if he didn't have PTSD (what event caused the PTSD?)
3. He ain't going to be out on the streets, ever.
4. I don't think higher of someone just because they served in the military.

My great uncle served in WWII for many years, he had PTSD--our family took care of him.

I do not trust Kokesh, I haven't for a while and I've kept my mouth shut just in case I was wrong--I don't think I'm wrong anymore.
1.Pure guessing that goes against medical documentation and Adams testimony;
2. Pure guessing that goes against medical documentation and Adams testimony;
3. Pure guessing that goes against medical documentation and Adams testimony;
4. Ok. Providing for defence is one of few responsibilities of the state. Providing appropriate care for results of that defense= soldiers with PTSD is duty of the state who put them in that situation.





If he really saw any real combat I'd have no problem with him getting disability pay. It's a well-known fact though that many veterans who were nowhere near direct combat are getting paid for "PTSD." I assume he's not one of the fakers, if so it's really his business how much disability pay he gets. Though some of the neocons here seem to have a problem with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4okBcFS09L0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR1jRM4XTyc

amy31416
07-19-2013, 08:47 PM
Was your mother threatened with death or death of co-workers on a daily basis? Quite a different scenario Amy.

Don't care. She got punched, spit on, had a miscarriage while on duty, etc. Her job was no less dangerous or important than when Kokesh was in the military.

It's different, but it's no less or more important Phill. In fact, I'd argue that her job was far more important because she wasn't out trying to kill on the taxpayer's dime.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 08:48 PM
He volunteered to join the military and he's not fucking disabled. My grandfather landed on the banks of Normandy, killed who knows how many Nazis in one of the deadliest battles of the century, and came home and went back to work selling fur coats for the next 30 years. What did Adam see? Someone lose an arm or leg? A dead person or two? AFAIK he wasn't involved in any major battle.

Yea we should take care of our soldiers who are disabled mentally or physically but it couldn't be any more clear that Adam is just milking the system.

You can just shut the fuck up at this point unless you have experienced this. I'm pretty sure your grandfather would say the same thing.

amy31416
07-19-2013, 08:49 PM
1.Pure guessing that goes against medical documentation and Adams testimony;
2. Pure guessing that goes against medical documentation and Adams testimony;
3. Pure guessing that goes against medical documentation and Adams testimony;
4. Ok. Providing for defence is one of few responsibilities of the state. Providing appropriate care for results of that defense= soldiers with PTSD is duty of the state who put them in that situation.






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4okBcFS09L0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR1jRM4XTyc

I've seen "mental" disabilities faked before and I've seen real ones. I don't believe Kokesh.

brandon
07-19-2013, 08:52 PM
You can just shut the fuck up at this point unless you have experienced this. I'm pretty sure your grandfather would say the same thing.

I've experienced similar in non-combat situations. Maybe I'm over stepping my bounds and I don't mean to offend anyone. However, if Adam thinks he's capable of being a senator or a president, surely he's capable of getting up on a roof and nailing some shingles. I think the reason he doesn't work is because he doesn't have to, not that he can't. FWIW I'm pretty sure my grandfather would call him a pussy if he was still with us.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 08:55 PM
Don't care. She got punched, spit on, had a miscarriage while on duty, etc. Her job was no less dangerous or important than when Kokesh was in the military.

It's different, but it's no less or more important Phill. In fact, I'd argue that her job was far more important because she wasn't out trying to kill on the taxpayer's dime.

Amy-pi, I won't argue what is more important. Apples and oranges, apples and apples and oranges and oranges.

When it comes to the specifics your mother was absolutely NOT in the same environment. I know some fantastic corpsman. I know how different the situation. They told me.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 08:57 PM
I've experienced similar in non-combat situations. Maybe I'm over stepping my bounds and I don't mean to offend anyone. However, if Adam thinks he's capable of being a senator or a president, surely he's capable of getting up on a roof and nailing some shingles. I think the reason he doesn't work is because he doesn't have to, not that he can't.

Does the president of the "United States" need to be able to shingle a roof? SMFH.

brandon
07-19-2013, 08:59 PM
Does the president of the "United States" need to be able to shingle a roof? SMFH.


Way to totally miss the point. PS see my edit about what my grandfather would say.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 09:01 PM
McCain is a 100% disability to those that may not have known. 100%. He was a candidate for president. He was just a poor choice by the Republicans. As we all know.

JK/SEA
07-19-2013, 09:01 PM
sure nice to see and read all these negative comments from people who couldn't carry Adams jock strap.

brandon
07-19-2013, 09:03 PM
sure nice to see and read all these negative comments from people who couldn't carry Adams jock strap.

Let me know next time you're assigned to carry it. I'd like to get a picture.

amy31416
07-19-2013, 09:04 PM
Amy-pi, I won't argue what is more important. Apples and oranges, apples and apples and oranges and oranges.

When it comes to the specifics your mother was absolutely NOT in the same environment. I know some fantastic corpsman. I know how different the situation. They told me.

Of course it's a different situation, but I simply don't believe Kokesh when he claims that he suffered mental traumas. I believe that my mother's job was far more difficult than his, and it involved similar factors like death, blood, guts, being in physically demanding positions, etc. Yet you don't hear about nurses claiming PTSD. And I also believe that my mother had a much more honorable profession. She did a very physically strenuous job from the time she was 20 until she was 65, Adam doesn't even come close.

I just don't buy his claim of PTSD. I know many disagree, and that's fine.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 09:04 PM
Way to totally miss the point. PS see my edit about what my grandfather would say.

This edit?


FWIW I'm pretty sure my grandfather would call him a pussy if he was still with us.

I'm sure you are pretty sure.

amy31416
07-19-2013, 09:04 PM
sure nice to see and read all these negative comments from people who couldn't carry Adams jock strap.

Gross.

Barrex
07-19-2013, 09:08 PM
Don't care. She got punched, spit on, had a miscarriage while on duty, etc. Her job was no less dangerous or important than when Kokesh was in the military.

It's different, but it's no less or more important Phill. In fact, I'd argue that her job was far more important because she wasn't out trying to kill on the taxpayer's dime.
No one said that her job is less important that soldiers job... but come on. You are saying that her job is no less dangerous than soldiers? That is just wrong. Was in war. Seen stuff. That is just wrong.



I've seen "mental" disabilities faked before and I've seen real ones. I don't believe Kokesh.

I know people who shoot them selfs in foot to get disability checks; know deserters who are taking one. Here it is used to buy social peace and ensure that enough people are content so that they dont protest or make noise.

Difference between me and you(regarding this): I know for sure things that I mentioned above. You guess (and that is your right).

I believe that you are wrong.

P.s.
If Adam is/was milking he wouldnt stopped fundraising (asking people for money) for his upcoming trial.

brandon
07-19-2013, 09:11 PM
I'm sure you are pretty sure.
reread your post bro, I intentionally used the same wording you did. I'm pretty sure I'd know a little bit better than you.

In any case, I love you guys and goodnight.

JK/SEA
07-19-2013, 09:12 PM
Let me know next time you're assigned to carry it. I'd like to get a picture.

i don't need to. I got my hands full with my own... You on the other hand....

amy31416
07-19-2013, 09:15 PM
No one said that her job is less important that soldiers job... but come on. You are saying that her job is no less dangerous than soldiers? That is just wrong. Was in war. Seen stuff. That is just wrong.




I know people who shoot them selfs in foot to get disability checks; know deserters who are taking one. Here it is used to buy social peace and ensure that enough people are content so that they dont protest or make noise.

Difference between me and you(regarding this): I know for sure things that I mentioned above. You guess (and that is your right).

I believe that you are wrong.

Certainly not even close to being as dangerous, but it is certainly more important.

You can't know for sure, just as I can not. I hope I'm wrong, but I really don't think I am.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 09:17 PM
Of course it's a different situation, but I simply don't believe Kokesh when he claims that he suffered mental traumas. I believe that my mother's job was far more difficult than his, and it involved similar factors like death, blood, guts, being in physically demanding positions, etc. Yet you don't hear about nurses claiming PTSD. And I also believe that my mother had a much more honorable profession. She did a very physically strenuous job from the time she was 20 until she was 65, Adam doesn't even come close.

I just don't buy his claim of PTSD. I know many disagree, and that's fine.

Of the similar conditions did it include fear of death or putting oneself in harms way to save a fellow nurse?

Now realize I am getting away from Kokesh now. Corpsman are the nurses of the military. They do what nurses do. Under MUCH more adverse conditions.

I admit I do not know what Adams circumstance was. Perhaps it is not justified. PSTD is very real. It just never had a name and everyone just "sucked it up." And maybe put a bullet in their brain pan when they couldn't deal with it anymore.

amy31416
07-19-2013, 09:31 PM
Of the similar conditions did it include fear of death or putting oneself in harms way to save a fellow nurse?

Now realize I am getting away from Kokesh now. Corpsman are the nurses of the military. They do what nurses do. Under MUCH more adverse conditions.

I admit I do not know what Adams circumstance was. Perhaps it is not justified. PSTD is very real. It just never had a name and everyone just "sucked it up." And maybe put a bullet in their brain pan when they couldn't deal with it anymore.

Nope. But she lost a child when a patient attacked her, and her fellow nurses had to intervene. Yeah, it was in a hospital setting rather than the desert, but even after years of that, working night shifts, day shifts for over 40 years--she never once claimed that she was too mentally traumatized to work.

Adam can work, he can do something productive--my tiny little sweet mother could get through her blood and guts career. And I know that PTSD is real--I just don't believe that his claim of it is real. And that's pure opinion based on some of his strange reactions, staged weirdness, his opportunism--I mean, I'd follow some of you guys into battle (if that were an option for me), but I would never, ever follow Kokesh.

Barrex
07-19-2013, 09:33 PM
Trust me you wouldnt want to follow me. I get bat-shit crazy under pressure.

mad cow
07-19-2013, 09:33 PM
Many factors go into disability determinations. Are you a vet?

Many factors go into SSI determinations.Do you have a problem paying someone in his mid-20's who is obviously healthy as a horse getting monthly SSI payments for the rest of his life?How about a cop of the same age who is running marathons,I remember such a case.If not ,I don't want to hear anything about SSI or Cop disability from you again.

70% mentally disabled?Why would I ever listen to anything he ever says again if he is 70% mentally disabled?

klamath
07-19-2013, 09:42 PM
Someone that had PTSD yet wanted to go back to Iraq but got barred from reenlistment??? Sorry I don't buy it. My son is a marine infantry corporal as part of the first unit to breach the walls in the battle of Fallujah. They were told they were going to take 50% fatalities. Their APC was hit on the first berm. As they milled around in confusion one marine started cursing the he took a piece of shrapnel in his hand. My sons buddy was sitting against the track of the APC calmly said "You think you have it bad I just lost a arm".
My son spent 2 months there was wounded and was awarded the bronze star for valor for saving most of the men in his squad in building to building combat. A month later my son was pulled from one boarding line to another in a two helicopter flight. They encountered a dust storm and saw a fire ball. Upon landing the helicopter crewchief came up and hugged my son. "Chock two went down and my friend as well as nearly all of your platoon were on board". It was the worst helicopter crash in the Iraq war.
My son is NOT drawing 70% PTSD disability but works full time supporting his family.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 09:46 PM
Nope. But she lost a child when a patient attacked her, and her fellow nurses had to intervene. Yeah, it was in a hospital setting rather than the desert, but even after years of that, working night shifts, day shifts for over 40 years--she never once claimed that she was too mentally traumatized to work.

Adam can work, he can do something productive--my tiny little sweet mother could get through her blood and guts career. And I know that PTSD is real--I just don't believe that his claim of it is real. And that's pure opinion based on some of his strange reactions, staged weirdness, his opportunism--I mean, I'd follow some of you guys into battle (if that were an option for me), but I would never, ever follow Kokesh.

We need to separate two things.

Concerning your mother. I would speculate that not an inordinate amount of civilian nurses lose their fetus while on the job. As tragic as it is, and it is tragic, this is a less than lightning strike probability. The probability in war of losing friends or limbs or psyche is exponentially increased.

On the other end Adam seems to be doing something productive to me. I don't worship the guy. If he would have done a march on D,C, I would have gone. Because THAT is something worth doing.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 09:54 PM
Many factors go into SSI determinations.Do you have a problem paying someone in his mid-20's who is obviously healthy as a horse monthly SSI payments for the rest of his life?How about a cop of the same age who is running marathons,I remember such a case.If not ,I don't want to hear anything about SSI or Cop disability from you again.

70% mentally disabled?Why would I ever listen to anything he ever says again if he is 70% mentally disabled?

Where do you get this 70% as a mental disability? How do you know this is why? Personally put up or shut up. There are all kinda disabilities. Hearing loss from weapons fire being a major one. As an example.

As to the rest of your diatribe I ain't a fan of cop pensions either. I AM a fan of contractual obligations regardless.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 09:58 PM
Someone that had PTSD yet wanted to got back to Iraq but got barred from reenlistment??? Sorry I don't buy it. My son is a marine infantry corporal as part of the first unit to breach the walls in the battle of Fallujah. They were told they were going to take 50% fatalities. Their APC was hit on the first berm. As they milled around in confusion one marine started cursing the he took a piece of shrapnel in his hand. My sons buddy was sitting against the track of the APC calmly said "You think you have it bad I just lost a arm".
My son spent 2 months there was wounded and was awarded the bronze star for valor for saving most of the men in his squad in building to building combat. A month later my son was pulled from one boarding line to another in a two helicopter flight. They encountered a dust storm and saw a fire ball. Upon landing the helicopter crewchief came up and hugged my son. "Chock two went down and my friend as well as nearly all of your platoon were on board". It was the worst helicopter crash in the Iraq war.
My son is NOT drawing 70% PTSD disability but works full time supporting his family.

Your son is lucky. His psyche wasn't shattered. Do you deny that there is SOMETHING wrong and that vet suicides are so staggering that they exceed actual "in country" deaths?

amy31416
07-19-2013, 10:00 PM
Someone that had PTSD yet wanted to got back to Iraq but got barred from reenlistment??? Sorry I don't buy it. My son is a marine infantry corporal as part of the first unit to breach the walls in the battle of Fallujah. They were told they were going to take 50% fatalities. Their APC was hit on the first berm. As they milled around in confusion one marine started cursing the he took a piece of shrapnel in his hand. My sons buddy was sitting against the track of the APC calmly said "You think you have it bad I just lost a arm".
My son spent 2 months there was wounded and was awarded the bronze star for valor for saving most of the men in his squad in building to building combat. A month later my son was pulled from one boarding line to another in a two helicopter flight. They encountered a dust storm and saw a fire ball. Upon landing the helicopter crewchief came up and hugged my son. "Chock two went down and my friend as well as nearly all of your platoon were on board". It was the worst helicopter crash in the Iraq war.
My son is NOT drawing 70% PTSD disability but works full time supporting his family.

See, here's what I'm talking about--this seems a reasonable situation to possibly be claiming PTSD. This is why I started comparing it to my mother's occupation--I have a cousin who's in the military and has done many terms, but he's just an aircraft mechanic. Not all duties in the military are the same or have the same risk.


We need to separate two things.

Concerning your mother. I would speculate that not an inordinate amount of civilian nurses lose their fetus while on the job. As tragic as it is, and it is tragic, this is a less than lightning strike probability. The probability in war of losing friends or limbs or psyche is exponentially increased.

On the other end Adam seems to be doing something productive to me. I don't worship the guy. If he would have done a march on D,C, I would have gone. Because THAT is something worth doing.

And I won't criticize you for it. But I will say something about these so-called leaders who strike me as rather "off." However, the likelihood of something happening (miscarriage vs. losing a friend in battle) does not reduce the harm done.

People choose to go into the military knowing that they can die, be handicapped or lose friends in battle. Other people do not go into common professions with that sort of "preparedness." Adam allegedly melted 70%, yet many others do not with confirmed losses while being entirely unprepared.

I might change my mind if I knew what sort of horrors he committed/witnessed--but as far as I know, all he did was steal a gun off a dead guy.

mad cow
07-19-2013, 10:01 PM
OK,fine.As long as you have no problems with paying for 25 year old cops retiring on pensions or muscle bound 25 year old civilians retiring on SSI,I can't argue with the consistency of your reasoning.

Dianne
07-19-2013, 10:14 PM
I did not know this,you can look at him and see he is not 70% disabled.

I support Adam for this 2nd amendment civil disobedience in particular and most of his positions on other matters in general but there is no way I can justify putting his collecting 70% disability anywhere but in the minus column.

Can't believe your statement, that you can look at him and see he is not 70% disabled. Where did you get your medical degree? I've seen people living on half a lung, who came back from war. You can't tell it to look at them but they have numerous surgeries and numerous meds. When you walk through a shopping mall, can you tell who has terminal cancer and who doesn't?

I think your statement is totally foolish and unjust. Apparently he doesn't believe it is your business or mine, to know what his disabilities are.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 10:14 PM
See, here's what I'm talking about--this seems a reasonable situation to possibly be claiming PTSD. This is why I started comparing it to my mother's occupation--I have a cousin who's in the military and has done many terms, but he's just an aircraft mechanic. Not all duties in the military are the same or have the same risk.



And I won't criticize you for it. But I will say something about these so-called leaders who strike me as rather "off." However, the likelihood of something happening (miscarriage vs. losing a friend in battle) does not reduce the harm done.

People choose to go into the military knowing that they can die, be handicapped or lose friends in battle. Other people do not go into common professions with that sort of "preparedness." Adam allegedly melted 70%, yet many others do not with confirmed losses while being entirely unprepared.

I might change my mind if I knew what sort of horrors he committed/witnessed--but as far as I know, all he did was steal a gun off a dead guy.

The specifics would be interesting. But, I do not know them. Percentage of disability can come from a number of factors. And those percentages depend on the time period. The V.A. is a fucked up bureaucracy. Trust me on this. It is subdivided into time periods and to specific conflicts. Total disability can ride on a number of factors. 15% hearing loss. 10% repetitive muscle injury for being a machine gunner could equal a 25% disability. Many factors add up. John McCain is a 100% disability reciepient. Go figure. lol.

We don't know all the factors involved. For anyone to say it is 70% "mental" is speculation.

Dianne
07-19-2013, 10:17 PM
Your son is lucky. His psyche wasn't shattered. Do you deny that there is SOMETHING wrong and that vet suicides are so staggering that they exceed actual "in country" deaths?

Well he doesn't know that yet... His son may still carry the trauma, which haunts him on a daily basis. Almost everyone that comes back from war, has PTSD; unless they are sociopaths and fear retribution for admitting it. Those who don't admit it, are the ones to fear the most.

Carlybee
07-19-2013, 10:18 PM
Well I guess no one is expected to take his statement that he is running for President seriously but clearly no one disabled 70% whether mentally/emotionally or physically would ever be considered fit for the presidency.


Hmm...Roosevelt seemed to have served from a wheelchair...I don't know what % that was.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 10:27 PM
Well he doesn't know that yet... His son may still carry the trauma, which haunts him on a daily basis. Almost everyone that comes back from war, has PTSD; unless they are sociopaths and fear retribution for admitting it. Those who don't admit it, are the ones to fear the most.

Possibly, from his attitude his son might feel that he should hide his feelings. That would be a real shame. But, it may not be the reality. being a non-combat vet has allowed me the opportunity to bond with combat vets. There ARE those that can cope that are not sociopaths that have come home and lived a normal life. There are many that have. But, this fact does not dismiss those that do not. Nor make them less of a man, or undeserving of support, by their condition.

klamath
07-19-2013, 10:29 PM
Well he doesn't know that yet... His son may still carry the trauma, which haunts him on a daily basis. Almost everyone that comes back from war, has PTSD; unless they are sociopaths and fear retribution for admitting it. Those who don't admit it, are the ones to fear the most.And there are a lot of vets abusing the hell out of the system once they found you could get money for something like that. Vet are no better or no worse than the average American. Plenty of Americans abuse the hell out of the disability system.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 10:36 PM
And there are a lot of vets abusing the hell out of the system once they found you could get money for something like that. Vet are no better or no worse than the average American. Plenty of Americans abuse the hell out of the disability system.

Abusing the hell out of the system......... What's the suicide rate vs. combat death this past year? Hey, at least they were noble and didn't cost a taxpayer dime.

Occam's Banana
07-19-2013, 10:47 PM
I might change my mind if I knew what sort of horrors he committed/witnessed--but as far as I know, all he did was steal a gun off a dead guy.

I recall something about an Iraqi man who had been burned alive in his car, with Adam & his fellows posing with the body afterwards. Adam admits to having been quite callow at that time and being deeply & shamefully affected by the incident afterwards. (Perhaps it might even have been the same guy from whose body he acquired the gun.)

At any rate, I have an enormous degree of skepticism regarding modern psychiatry (especially as it is employed by the State for purposes of designating persons as being qualified or disqualified for this, that or the other thing). However, I possess an even greater degree of skepticism regarding psychiatry as it is practiced over the Internet on political forums ...

Having said that, I no more resent Adam collecting a check from the VA (or wherever) than I resent my mother for collecting a check from the SSA. I know my mom is not a moocher, and I just can't get worked up over the (almost entirely speculative) possibility that Adam might be. For one thing, "welfare queens" mooching off the system are a symptom, not the disease. For another thing, everyone (except possibly the most abject of hermits) can be accused of deriving some amount or kind of "benefits" from the "system" (directly or indirectly). It's just not a productive source of criticisms (except when it comes to casting aspersions of "hypocrisy" ...).

CaptUSA
07-19-2013, 10:55 PM
Ok, I gotta chime in here. As most of you know, I'm not particularly fond of Adam Kokesh as a personality, but I've always been a supporter of his actions. There's something I think we all could learn from this video (and others). I think it's clear that he's a little unstable, but you know what? The liberty movement needs these types of people. I think in order for human beings to regain their liberty, there will be many different paths that have to be taken simultaneously.

But I think we all have a responsibility to provide Adam with the right type of support. It seems clear to me that he feeds off of the support he gets. If we support him the right way, he could be extremely valuable. For all you health food nuts out there, his soul needs to be permeated with positive nutrition instead of junk food. We should be trying to stabilize him - not moderate him - but stabilize him with positive support. That means some of us have to stop with the rah rah every time he does something. That means others of us have to stop calling him nuts. We need him to start choosing his moves more wisely. He's playing checkers and the State is playing chess. I'm concerned about how this ends up if he keeps feeding on the junk food.

I think we can piece together how an unstable personality, a sense of hopelessness, a State closing in, and the strong desire to be viewed as a patriot can go wrong. And then we'll all be sitting in a forum talking about whether he was a patriot, a Fed, under medication from the State, or whatever else we may dream up. I don't want that to happen. Adam represents a huge potential. If you support him, support him in the big picture and encourage him to think six or seven moves ahead. We need him to make wise choices. This doesn't seem to be happening. Ok, I'll end my chime with, "Think about what you're doing to support liberty!"

klamath
07-19-2013, 10:56 PM
Your son is lucky. His psyche wasn't shattered. Do you deny that there is SOMETHING wrong and that vet suicides are so staggering that they exceed actual "in country" deaths?Yes I do believe there is legitiment cases of PTSD. In fact everyone civilian and military alike can end up with PTSD from a war. I served at the same time as my son in Iraq and my PTSD is I don't want to see another war, and I sure as hell wasn't going back to it. I gave up a job in the military I absolutely loved because I knew the US government would send me to one of the ongoing wars. Friends of mine are currently in Afganistan on their second deployment since I retired. Others are in Kosovo... oh yeaw that little war people think is long over.
I question Adam because he talks way to eagerly about bringing a war here, He tried to go back to Iraq but was barred from reenlistment for smuggling a gun out of Iraq which is another thing I question. He said he bought it from an Iraqi, but it really is not a free trade zone when you are a wearing the uniform of a powerful occupying army.

alucard13mm
07-19-2013, 11:12 PM
Not sure if it is edited or not.. but Adam sounds like an anarchists. Pretty bad imo.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 11:13 PM
Yes I do believe there is legitiment cases of PTSD. In fact everyone civilian and military alike can end up with PTSD from a war. I served at the same time as my son in Iraq and my PTSD is I don't want to see another war, and I sure as hell wasn't going back to it. I gave up a job in the military I absolutely loved because I knew the US government would send me to one of the ongoing wars. Friends of mine are currently in Afganistan on their second deployment since I retired. Others are in Kosovo... oh yeaw that little war people think is long over.
I question Adam because he talks way to eagerly about bringing a war here, He tried to go back to Iraq but was barred from reenlistment for smuggling a gun out of Iraq which is another thing I question. He said he bought it from an Iraqi, but it really is not a free trade zone when you are a wearing the uniform of a powerful occupying army.

I'm glad that you believe that there are legitimate cases of PTSD. I come from a military family. As a young man I heard many stories of the stoicism of my predecessors. As I aged I started hearing the truth of it. I had a great friend that was DELTA in Afghanistan circa Russian invasion. He was a loving-caring individual. He also self medicated and had many nights when he "wasn't right" and I walked on eggshells and counciled. Life took us apart and he eventually put a bullet in the brain pan. He would have taken a bullet for me. And that was when he wasn't suicidal. Left behind a family that deserved better. But, he had demons.

phill4paul
07-19-2013, 11:16 PM
Not sure if it is edited or not.. but Adam sounds like an anarchists. Pretty bad imo.

2013/122 mm13dracula. Lol.

Cleaner44
07-19-2013, 11:32 PM
How exactly is Adam 70% disabled and doesn't he think it's hypocritical to be living off of Federal disability payments and also want to abolish the Federal government?

When a military member enters into a contract with the federal government and then faithfully executes their part of the contract, is it wrong or hypocritical to then collect payment for said contract?

Occam's Banana
07-19-2013, 11:35 PM
Not sure if it is edited or not.. but Adam sounds like an anarchists. Pretty bad imo.

He doesn't just sound like an anarchist. He *is* an anarchist (a voluntaryist / agorist / anarcho-capitalist, to be exact).

mad cow
07-19-2013, 11:43 PM
When a military member enters into a contract with the federal government and then faithfully executes their part of the contract, is it wrong or hypocritical to then collect payment for said contract?

Hey,same deal with firemen,policemen,schoolteachers,Senators,Congress men,IRS and DEA agents,and all other Local,State and Federal employees,amirite?

Feeding the Abscess
07-19-2013, 11:52 PM
http://i.imgur.com/HhkLW.gif

I love this, not only for its relevancy, but because Walter clearly doesn't quite understand how memes work.

Feeding the Abscess
07-19-2013, 11:54 PM
Hey,same deal with firemen,policemen,schoolteachers,Senators,Congress men,IRS and DEA agents,and all other Local,State and Federal employees,amirite?

Depends on what they do with those funds, if they vote for perpetuating the State, etc. It'd be safe to assume that the vast majority of those people you mentioned support the State.

mad cow
07-20-2013, 12:02 AM
Depends on what they do with those funds, if they vote for perpetuating the State, etc. It'd be safe to assume that the vast majority of those people you mentioned support the State.

Who cares if they support the State or not.Or if they are democrat.republican,libertarian,anarchist,white,bl ack or mexican?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.Or are you suggesting that people can be refused government benefits because of the color of their skin or their political philosophies?

Be careful what you wish for.

donnay
07-20-2013, 12:24 AM
Thinking back to all the threads posted here about welfare whores abusing the system it's really pretty shitty that the worst offender is one who portrays themselves as a leader of our philosophy. This should really be a headline across the land; a testimony to the absurdity of our welfare system. A single 30 year old unemployed man living solely on the government dole, who has not had or sought a job in many years, buys luxury mansion in DC metro area.

http://i.imgur.com/seO1Mnt.png


You know he bought it? Does he live with room mates?

LukeP
07-20-2013, 01:41 AM
Wow, what a perfect example of what the challenges would be to actually advance on the Liberty platform. On the one hand you have Libertarians saying that it's not the Federal governments job to take care of people from cradle to grave. It's up to communities and churches/non-profits where people can voluntarily pay and support those causes rather than supporting them by force. On the other hand you have people talking about how badly then need & deserve the handouts and how they are owed them. I guess it's kind of odd to me that this comes about regarding Adam Kokesh. I think back to when he was running in New Mexico (for senate?) and the show on RT. Lately it just seems like he is getting himself arrested and shouting angry rants. I'm sure that's an over simplification. I wish him the best but I think he can do better than this.

phill4paul
07-20-2013, 01:55 AM
Wow, what a perfect example of what the challenges would be to actually advance on the Liberty platform. On the one hand you have Libertarians saying that it's not the Federal governments job to take care of people from cradle to grave. It's up to communities and churches/non-profits where people can voluntarily pay and support those causes rather than supporting them by force. On the other hand you have people talking about how badly then need & deserve the handouts and how they are owed them. I guess it's kind of odd to me that this comes about regarding Adam Kokesh. I think back to when he was running in New Mexico (for senate?) and the show on RT. Lately it just seems like he is getting himself arrested and shouting angry rants. I'm sure that's an over simplification. I wish him the best but I think he can do better than this.

It's simple. It was Ron Paul's approach. The honorable approach. Pay out those that bought in. End programs starting with voluntary opt out. Scale back the government while honoring it's commitments. Though I do not know where things are headed and I expect a melt down that doesn't mean you don't honor a contract.
Because there is a separation here. Some forms of social "welfare" are given through contractual obligations. Others are not.

LukeP
07-20-2013, 02:03 AM
That's why the total debt is actually $86.8 trillion if you count honoring all those "contracts". It's just that things have been so over promised they are impossible to meet. The question is do you want the unwinding to be orderly where people can transition into self dependency or do you want it to be sudden and painful by suddenly dropping everyone who depends on the system?

phill4paul
07-20-2013, 02:07 AM
That's why the total deficit is actually $86.8 trillion if you count honoring all those "contracts". It's just that things have been so over promised they are impossible to meet. The question is do you want the unwinding to be orderly where people can transition into self dependency or do you want it to be sudden and painful by suddenly dropping everyone who depends on the system?

That is the question.

devil21
07-20-2013, 02:12 AM
Adam is now in the area of the jail where the mental patients are kept. Called "A Floor".

alucard13mm
07-20-2013, 02:21 AM
2013/122 mm13dracula. Lol.

Oh. My other account alucard13mmfmj

Made in around January 2012 got compromised and I never got it back from the web admin =\.

RickyJ
07-20-2013, 02:47 AM
Given that he's worked for RT, along with having his own show--how does he still qualify as disabled? Anyone know?

Connections would be my guess.

Weston White
07-20-2013, 03:36 AM
So, went to public school, when the teachers diagnosed me with ADHD; later got my GED so I joined the military, was ordered forward-deployed and caught an STD, or maybe two or three; with years having passed, then got medically discharged with PTSD. Now here I stay with my GF' family collecting on my VDC and their EBT, kicking it with our rainbow buddies over at the local LGBT.

Isn’t life ironic? I jest.

ETA: I am listening to the Health Ranger too much. :D

Feeding the Abscess
07-20-2013, 06:32 AM
Wow, what a perfect example of what the challenges would be to actually advance on the Liberty platform. On the one hand you have Libertarians saying that it's not the Federal governments job to take care of people from cradle to grave. It's up to communities and churches/non-profits where people can voluntarily pay and support those causes rather than supporting them by force. On the other hand you have people talking about how badly then need & deserve the handouts and how they are owed them. I guess it's kind of odd to me that this comes about regarding Adam Kokesh. I think back to when he was running in New Mexico (for senate?) and the show on RT. Lately it just seems like he is getting himself arrested and shouting angry rants. I'm sure that's an over simplification. I wish him the best but I think he can do better than this.

Walter Block:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2011/03/walter-block/may-a-libertarian-take-money-from-the-government/


3. My take on this is that it is a positive virtue to relieve the government of its ill-gotten gains. Suppose Z steals an apple from Y and then X comes along and takes this fruit away from Z. Did X do anything wrong? Did he act incompatibly with the NAP? Is X no longer a libertarian? Of course not. Very much to the contrary, X did something entirely compatible with our philosophy. Certainly, all libertarian theories of private property rights, of punishment, would agree that of all people in the world, Z is the absolutely least deserving of this foodstuff. Now, it might be nice, it might be virtuous, for X to return the apple to Y. Indeed, this was precisely the relationship between Ragnar Danneskjold (X) and Hank Reardon (Y) in Ayn Rand's magnificent and monumental novel, Atlas Shrugged. The government (Z) stole from Reardon (and of course others) and Ragnar was just returning these stolen goods to Hank, the victim. But, Ragnar's behavior constituted a double or two-stage act. First, he grabbed gold from the government; then, and only then, did he return it to Hank. But, if a double act is to be licit, then each and every part of it must be, too. Two wrongs cannot make a right, and neither can one right and one wrong. So, I deduce, it was entirely proper for Danneskjold to relieve the evil government depicted in Atlas of its stolen property, even if he did not give a penny of it to Reardon. Taking money from a thief is an unadulterated good deed. Returning it to victims is virtuous, too, but it is supererogatory: it is not needed to convert the first part of this double-stage act into righteousness; the first part is good in and of itself!

It isn't contradictory to hold that it is immoral for the State to take care of people from cradle to grave while also looting the government of its funds. If everybody did this, the State would collapse upon itself. It would essentially be a mass demonstration of withdrawn consent.

And it would be beautiful.

presence
07-20-2013, 07:55 AM
Walter Block has discussed welfare/government payouts and their relation to libertarianism numerous times. People should give him a read in that area.








My take on this is that it is a positive virtue to relieve the government of its ill-gotten gains.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2011/03/walter-block/may-a-libertarian-take-money-from-the-government/




oops didn't see the previous post

klamath
07-20-2013, 08:42 AM
Well he doesn't know that yet... His son may still carry the trauma, which haunts him on a daily basis. Almost everyone that comes back from war, has PTSD; unless they are sociopaths and fear retribution for admitting it. Those who don't admit it, are the ones to fear the most. Almost everyone that has a traumatic experience can have PTSD. Admitting to PTSD can cost you the right to bear arms.

LukeP
07-20-2013, 04:17 PM
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2011/03/walter-block/may-a-libertarian-take-money-from-the-government/

oops didn't see the previous post

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. First of all the state doesn't have any ill gotten gains because it doesn't have any money. Everything taken from the state will need to be taken from citizens in a future date plus interest. But in my mind that is just wrong, I don't care what Lew Rockwell, Walter Block say or even if Ron Paul said otherwise.

Feeding the Abscess
07-20-2013, 05:31 PM
Wow, I couldn't disagree more. First of all the state doesn't have any ill gotten gains because it doesn't have any money. Everything taken from the state will need to be taken from citizens in a future date plus interest. But in my mind that is just wrong, I don't care what Lew Rockwell, Walter Block say or even if Ron Paul said otherwise.

That's precisely why Walter describes it as loot, ill-gotten gains, etc.

The Free Hornet
07-20-2013, 07:48 PM
Many factors go into SSI determinations.Do you have a problem paying someone in his mid-20's who is obviously healthy as a horse getting monthly SSI payments for the rest of his life?

I have a problem paying SSI to a WW2 vet who stormed the beaches and paid into the whole system and never started collected until they were 90 and their own savings had dried up.

I don't have a problem with Adam taking the SSD money.

The issue is that we give the money, not so much that people take it. It should work like stolen iPhones. If you report a stolen iPhone, the cops don't go out and steal one for you as replacement. In a rare instance, you get it back but most are out of luck. It is our job not to let the government steal the money in the first place. Worring about how old/disabled/worthy/needful is just a tactic to divert focus from the thieves.


*******************



Are you a vet? Ever dealt with the V.A.?

Are you a cheeseburger? Have you ever been covered in ketchup?

Don't ask me not to put this wiener in your mouth if you've never worked in a kosher deli!

[sorry, I'm late to the thread and need to catch up on the non sequitors :p;):o:eek:]

mad cow
07-20-2013, 08:09 PM
Sorry,I meant SSDI,I can't keep all of the government programs straight.

LukeP
07-20-2013, 08:10 PM
I have a problem paying SSI to a WW2 vet who stormed the beaches and paid into the whole system and never started collected until they were 90 and their own savings had dried up.

I don't have a problem with Adam taking the SSD money.

The issue is that we give the money, not so much that people take it. It should work like stolen iPhones. If you report a stolen iPhone, the cops don't go out and steal one for you as replacement. In a rare instance, you get it back but most are out of luck. It is our job not to let the government steal the money in the first place. Worring about how old/disabled/worthy/needful is just a tactic to divert focus from the thieves.

Are you a cheeseburger? Have you ever been covered in ketchup?

Don't ask me not to put this wiener in your mouth if you've never worked in a kosher deli!

[sorry, I'm late to the thread and need to catch up on the non sequitors :p;):o:eek:]

Wow, is it just me or are the liberty supporters just turning into a band of criminals?

Occam's Banana
07-20-2013, 09:27 PM
Wow, is it just me or are the liberty supporters just turning into a band of criminals?

It's just you.

presence
07-20-2013, 09:34 PM
Wow, is it just me or are the liberty supporters just turning into a band of criminals?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWTyHbGcUQY

RPtotheWH
07-20-2013, 09:44 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWTyHbGcUQY


Ron is always right, if we the people don't take the money, then it defaults to the big .gov, war-mongering statists, it does more good in our hands

Antischism
07-20-2013, 09:57 PM
I should be getting disability checks in the mail for the psychological damage that was inflicted on me being right next to ground zero on 9/11, an attack that was allowed by our government. I have 9/11 PTSD.

LukeP
07-20-2013, 09:59 PM
That's why Ron takes a congressional pension and always kept all of the money budgeted for his congregational office every year, right?

Brian4Liberty
07-20-2013, 10:49 PM
Almost everyone that has a traumatic experience can have PTSD.

Yep. That's about it. Modern medicine has new names and diagnoses for everything, including the most basic functions of the brain. Remembering something and not being able to put it out of your mind is now a "disability".