The "self defense" killing nobody talked about

[jmdrake]

Okay. I'm starting a Trayvon Martin thread. Shoot me. (No! Don't! I have skittles in my....nevermind).

Anyhow, just a month or so after the Trayvon Martin killing, there was similar killing that nobody talked about. Okay, similar in some respects, but very different in others. Here's what happen. Two brothers were tailgating at a TSU homecoming game. The younger brother wanted the older to hook him up with a particular woman. The older brother didn't. The younger brother thought the older brother had hooked the woman up with someone else even though that didn't happen. The younger brother, a fireman, started fighting the older, a much bigger and stronger army veteran. The older brother kicked the younger brother's butt. The younger went back to his truck. The older came up and started to fight the younger again. The younger pulled out a knife and stabbed his older brother to death. He was never charged with a crime. Both were black.

Similarities to Martin/Zimmerman? Both men who did the killing were somewhat connected to the state. (Zimmerman's daddy was a judge. The guy that did the stabbing was a fire fighter. Did the police who did the investigation of the fireman cut him slack based on police/firefighter camaraderie?) Both claimed self defense. Both ultimately didn't have to go to prison.

Differences? No gun used. No race issue at all. And no national coverage. Oh, the younger brother didn't "get away" with anything. He couldn't go to his own brother's funeral even though he wanted to is a pariah in his own family and is having to live with the guilt.

[cajuncocoa]

http://wsmv.membercenter.worldnow.com/story/19675699/fatal-stabbing-at-lp-field?clienttype=printable
http://www.newschannel5.com/story/19679087/brothers-fight-results-in-post-tsu-game-stabbing

[Pericles]

Given those facts, I would not charge the younger brother, as he would appear to have a valid self defense claim.

[jmdrake]

Given those facts, I would not charge the younger brother, as he would appear to have a valid self defense claim.

I don't agree. He started a fist fight which to me says he's not in fear of his life from fist fights. But I can you reasons for your position.

[Pericles]

I don't agree. He started a fist fight which to me says he's not in fear of his life from fist fights. But I can you reasons for your position.

For me the pertinent facts are (A) younger brother got his ass beat (B) older brother moving in to administer more ass beating

At this point, from a legal view, stand your ground would come into play, but from a moral point of view, I'm OK with the younger brother thinking that escalation of force (weapon) was necessary.

[jmdrake]

For me the pertinent facts are (A) younger brother got his ass beat (B) older brother moving in to administer more ass beating

At this point, from a legal view, stand your ground would come into play, but from a moral point of view, I'm OK with the younger brother thinking that escalation of force (weapon) was necessary.

Well I see a moral hazard in your thinking. Older brother could/should have just killed younger brother to start off with then.

[ctiger2]

I'm amazed at how dumb people really are.

[Pericles]

Well I see a moral hazard in your thinking. Older brother could/should have just killed younger brother to start off with then.

If that had happened, I would not charge the older brother. I'm willing to give the victim of a physical attack a fairly wide latitude of defense options.

If we translate to Martin / Zimmerman - there are those who believe that Zimmerman continued the encounter, and therefore, his claim of self defense would be invalid - this is what the prosecution needed to (and failed) to prove. For those who believe that Martin came back and confronted Zimmerman, then the case lines up like this one with the two brothers.

[brushfire]

Schiff had a nice one recently.

[brushfire]

http://youtu.be/yvScyDBNvpI?t=7m40s

http://youtu.be/yvScyDBNvpI?t=7m40s

[klamath]

I would have to see more facts of the case. The one big difference I see is they were brothers. They knew each other all their lives. Could the younger brother establish that even though it was his brother he feared his older brother had flat out gone over the deep end and was going to kill him or cripple him?
They knew something about each other versus two strangers in a fight on a dark rainy night.

[KEEF]

https://twitter.com/G_fasciatus/status/357580349825490944


@RealEricHolder (https://twitter.com/RealEricHolder) What if Trayvon Martin was White and George Zimmerman was Black?: http://youtu.be/yvScyDBNvpI (http://t.co/sE63rHDDkH) via @youtube (https://twitter.com/YouTube)

[bolil]

Smart kid, if you find yourself smaller, weaker, slower, dumber than your opponent it only makes sense to grab a weapon and employ it. Brother or not.

[dannno]

Okay. I'm starting a Trayvon Martin thread. Shoot me. (No! Don't! I have skittles in my....nevermind).

Anyhow, just a month or so after the Trayvon Martin killing, there was similar killing that nobody talked about. Okay, similar in some respects, but very different in others. Here's what happen. Two brothers were tailgating at a TSU homecoming game. The younger brother wanted the older to hook him up with a particular woman. The older brother didn't. The younger brother thought the older brother had hooked the woman up with someone else even though that didn't happen. The younger brother, a fireman, started fighting the older, a much bigger and stronger army veteran. The older brother kicked the younger brother's butt. The younger went back to his truck. The older came up and started to fight the younger again. The younger pulled out a knife and stabbed his older brother to death. He was never charged with a crime. Both were black.

Similarities to Martin/Zimmerman? Both men who did the killing were somewhat connected to the state. (Zimmerman's daddy was a judge. The guy that did the stabbing was a fire fighter. Did the police who did the investigation of the fireman cut him slack based on police/firefighter camaraderie?) Both claimed self defense. Both ultimately didn't have to go to prison.

Differences? No gun used. No race issue at all. And no national coverage. Oh, the younger brother didn't "get away" with anything. He couldn't go to his own brother's funeral even though he wanted to is a pariah in his own family and is having to live with the guilt.

Sounds to me like older brother was initially defending the army vet from the younger brother and older brother thought that younger brother was going to his truck and coming back to continue the assault, possibly with a weapon which it turns out he was since it looks like he went to go get a knife.

That isn't really self defense.

[libertyjam]

Cain and Abel here.

[klamath]

Sounds to me like older brother was initially defending the army vet from the younger brother and older brother thought that younger brother was going to his truck and coming back to continue the assault, possibly with a weapon which it turns out he was since it looks like he went to go get a knife.

That isn't really self defense.
The older brother WAS the army vet.

[Pericles]

Another interesting case: http://rochester.ynn.com/content/top_stories/490926/jury-finds-roderick-scott-not-guilty/

[jmdrake]

Smart kid, if you find yourself smaller, weaker, slower, dumber than your opponent it only makes sense to grab a weapon and employ it. Brother or not.

How is it smart to make yourself a pariah by picking a fight with your brother and then killing him? And I suppose if I want to get away with killing someone I should sucker punch him when he's in a victim disarmament zone, run outside to my car where my gun is, and when he comes to punch me back shoot him and say I was fearing for my life? Stupid younger brother. Very stupid younger brother. Whether he goes to hell in the next life, the rest of this life will be a living hell.

[jmdrake]

If that had happened, I would not charge the older brother. I'm willing to give the victim of a physical attack a fairly wide latitude of defense options.

If we translate to Martin / Zimmerman - there are those who believe that Zimmerman continued the encounter, and therefore, his claim of self defense would be invalid - this is what the prosecution needed to (and failed) to prove. For those who believe that Martin came back and confronted Zimmerman, then the case lines up like this one with the two brothers.

I guess the reason I wouldn't grant self defense in this case is that the younger brother knew or should have known that the older brother did not have a weapon, and the younger brother knew or should have known that the older brother was not about to kill him. If he thought his life was in danger from a fist fight then he had no reason to pick one. If nothing else, the younger brother should have been charged with assault for starting the initial fight. Which brings up another question. If he was guilty of a crime (and admittedly he was) how can he claim self defense? Imagine another scenario. Person A sexually assaults person B. Person B chases person A down and starts punching him. Person B shoots person A? Something should happen when the person claiming self defense criminally initiated the incident. Not a murder charge, but something.

[dannno]

The older brother WAS the army vet.

Well I'll have to read it again, but I think that only strengthens my argument.

[Pericles]

I guess the reason I wouldn't grant self defense in this case is that the younger brother knew or should have known that the older brother did not have a weapon, and the younger brother knew or should have known that the older brother was not about to kill him. If he thought his life was in danger from a fist fight then he had no reason to pick one. If nothing else, the younger brother should have been charged with assault for starting the initial fight. Which brings up another question. If he was guilty of a crime (and admittedly he was) how can he claim self defense? Imagine another scenario. Person A sexually assaults person B. Person B chases person A down and starts punching him. Person B shoots person A? Something should happen when the person claiming self defense criminally initiated the incident. Not a murder charge, but something.

I absolutely agree with you about assault at a minimum for the initiator of the incident - I really want to discourage the initiation of violence. From a point in law that is my goal - to have initiating violence have very strong repurcussions - even to the point of allowing the victims "getting away" with responding in a way that may be out of proportion to the injury.

[Brian4Liberty]

The fact that they are brothers does make a difference and complicates it. Blame still goes to the initiator of violence. What degree of charges is the question. Let the Courts and Jury decide.

Fist fighting can result in death, but generally that is not the intent. It certainly can happen though. Using the knife is a different story.