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KEEF
07-16-2013, 05:07 AM
Thank you Edward Snowden for helping people become more aware of what we already knew, but another story to keep issues about privacy hopefully at the forefront.


Attention, Shoppers: Store Is Tracking Your Cell

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/05/05/business/video-retailnext-surveillance/video-retailnext-surveillance-articleLarge.jpg
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Big Data Hits Real Life: Brick-and-mortar stores are looking for a chance to catch up with their online competitors by using software that allows them to watch customers as they shop, and gather data about their behavior.


By STEPHANIE CLIFFORD (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/c/stephanie_clifford/index.html) and QUENTIN HARDY (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/h/quentin_hardy/index.html)

Published: July 14, 2013 404 Comments (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/15/business/attention-shopper-stores-are-tracking-your-cell.html?_r=1&#commentsContainer)


Like dozens of other brick-and-mortar retailers, Nordstrom (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/nordstrom_inc/index.html?inline=nyt-org) wanted to learn more about its customers — how many came through the doors, how many were repeat visitors — the kind of information that e-commerce sites like Amazon have in spades. So last fall the company started testing new technology that allowed it to track customers’ movements by following the Wi-Fi signals from their smartphones.

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Tina Fineberg for The New York Times

Shelley Kohan, a vice president for RetailNext, with her company’s customer-tracking system, which employs video cameras.


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But when Nordstrom posted a sign telling customers it was tracking them, shoppers were unnerved.
“We did hear some complaints,” said Tara Darrow, a spokeswoman for the store. Nordstrom ended the experiment in May, she said, in part because of the comments.
Nordstrom’s experiment is part of a movement by retailers to gather data about in-store shoppers’ behavior and moods, using video surveillance and signals from their cellphones and apps to learn information as varied as their sex, how many minutes they spend in the candy aisle and how long they look at merchandise before buying it.
All sorts of retailers — including national chains, like Family Dollar, Cabela’s and Mothercare, a British company, and specialty stores like Benetton and Warby Parker — are testing these technologies and using them to decide on matters like changing store layouts and offering customized coupons.
But while consumers seem to have no problem with cookies, profiles and other online tools that let e-commerce sites know who they are and how they shop, some bristle at the physical version, at a time when government surveillance — of telephone calls, Internet activity and Postal Service deliveries — is front and center because of the leaks by Edward J. Snowden.
“Way over the line,” one consumer posted (https://www.facebook.com/CBSDFW/posts/625196830836790) to Facebook in response to a local news story about Nordstrom’s efforts at some of its stores. Nordstrom says the counts were made anonymous. Technology specialists, though, say the tracking is worrisome.
“The idea that you’re being stalked in a store is, I think, a bit creepy, as opposed to, it’s only a cookie — they don’t really know who I am,” said Robert Plant, a computer information systems professor at the University of Miami School of Business Administration, noting that consumers can rarely control or have access to this data.
Some consumers wonder how the information is used.
“The creepy thing isn’t the privacy violation, it’s how much they can infer,” said Bradley Voytek, a neuroscientist who had stopped in at Philz Coffee in Berkeley, Calif. Philz uses technology from Euclid Analytics, of Palo Alto, Calif., the company that worked on the Nordstrom experiment, to measure the signals between a smartphone and a Wi-Fi antenna to count how many people walk by a store and how many enter.
Still, physical retailers argue that they are doing nothing more than what is routinely done online.
“Brick-and-mortar stores have been disadvantaged compared with online retailers, which get people’s digital crumbs,” said Guido Jouret, the head of Cisco’s emerging technologies group, which supplies tracking cameras to stores. Why, Mr. Jouret asked, should physical stores not “be able to tell if someone who didn’t buy was put off by prices, or was just coming in from the cold?” The companies that provide this technology offer a wide range of services.
One, RetailNext, uses video footage to study how shoppers navigate, determining, say, that men spend only one minute in the coat department, which may help a store streamline its men’s outerwear layout. It also differentiates men from women, and children from adults.
RetailNext, based in San Jose, Calif., adds data from shoppers’ smartphones to deduce even more specific patterns. If a shopper’s phone is set to look for Wi-Fi networks, a store that offers Wi-Fi can pinpoint where the shopper is in the store, within a 10-foot radius, even if the shopper does not connect to the network, said Tim Callan, RetailNext’s chief marketing officer.
The store can also recognize returning shoppers, because mobile devices send unique identification codes when they search for networks. That means stores can now tell how repeat customers behave and the average time between visits.
RetailNext also uses data to map customers’ paths; perhaps the shopper is 70 percent likely to go right immediately, or 14 percent likely to linger at a display, Mr. Callan said.



More at http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/15/business/attention-shopper-stores-are-tracking-your-cell.html?_r=1&

phill4paul
07-16-2013, 05:10 AM
With a hat tip to Mr. Leary I think it may be about time to "Tune out, Turn off and drop out."

CPUd
07-16-2013, 05:15 AM
Unfortunately, NSA or not, this is a practice that will continue to grow. The only real thing a person can do about it is to stick to the mom-and-pop stores.

Here's one of the things they are doing with the data:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_rule_learning

luctor-et-emergo
07-16-2013, 05:16 AM
http://www.technologyreview.com/sites/default/files/legacy/phonekerchief.jpg

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/421768/silence-smart-phones-at-thanksgiving-dinner-with-a-foldable-faraday-cage/

Open the Phonekerchief whenever you want to make a call or receive messages. ;)
Welcome to the future.

amy31416
07-16-2013, 08:21 AM
They can't track what I don't have.

asurfaholic
07-16-2013, 09:13 AM
They can't track what I don't have.

Dont be so sure.

I personally installed 2 tracking systems at 2 different stores that literally track your body as you shop. Had nothing to do with what devices you may or may not be carrying. Once you enter the store you are assigned a unique shopper ID and you are tracked until you leave.

QuickZ06
07-16-2013, 09:21 AM
They can't track what I don't have.

They only need you, once the technology gets better it won't matter if you have device or not on your possession. They want to get inside of our brains, they want to know everything about us.

asurfaholic
07-16-2013, 09:42 AM
They only need you, once the technology gets better it won't matter if you have device or not on your possession. They want to get inside of our brains, they want to know everything about us.

See post above yours... Technology is already there, already in use..

QuickZ06
07-16-2013, 09:46 AM
See post above yours... Technology is already there, already in use..

Yeah I had a bunch of tabs open (was answering a bunch of threads) and did not see yours until after I posted. Scary.

presence
07-16-2013, 09:48 AM
With a hat tip to Mr. Leary I think it may be about time to "Tune out, Turn off and drop out."

presence = no cell phone

amy31416
07-16-2013, 10:34 AM
Dont be so sure.

I personally installed 2 tracking systems at 2 different stores that literally track your body as you shop. Had nothing to do with what devices you may or may not be carrying. Once you enter the store you are assigned a unique shopper ID and you are tracked until you leave.

Yeah--well, they at least don't have my name/address/phone number associated with that sort of tracking. Should make most store security obsolete, I'd think.

QuickZ06
07-16-2013, 10:54 AM
Yeah--well, they at least don't have my name/address/phone number associated with that sort of tracking. Should make most store security obsolete, I'd think.

Facial recognition, you are in the system you cannot escape.

Brian4Liberty
07-16-2013, 11:26 AM
Yeah--well, they at least don't have my name/address/phone number associated with that sort of tracking. Should make most store security obsolete, I'd think.

If you use any kind of card at checkout, then they have identification. Don't they want to make ID or passports scan-able at a distance, without your knowledge?

Brian4Liberty
07-16-2013, 11:26 AM
Facial recognition, you are in the system you cannot escape.

That too.

opal
07-16-2013, 12:00 PM
already gave up cell phone - don't shop at major retail.. anything and somehow I don't think the *mission* is tracking anyone
I guess the only place we go that we are completely sure they track every move we make is on base for medical and commissary - and that's not news. I get produce at open air produce markets.. about to be getting our grass fed beef that way too.

DamianTV
07-16-2013, 12:08 PM
Dont be so sure.

I personally installed 2 tracking systems at 2 different stores that literally track your body as you shop. Had nothing to do with what devices you may or may not be carrying. Once you enter the store you are assigned a unique shopper ID and you are tracked until you leave.

Can the Unique ID be retreived the next time you come back?

asurfaholic
07-16-2013, 12:13 PM
Can the Unique ID be retreived the next time you come back?

Not on the systems i worked. It wasn't a facial recognition system, just a movement tracker.
Jc penny if anyone is wondering.

amy31416
07-16-2013, 12:21 PM
If you use any kind of card at checkout, then they have identification. Don't they want to make ID or passports scan-able at a distance, without your knowledge?

Generally don't shop at stores that have that, and the one that I infrequently go to doesn't have accurate info.

I can leave my ID in my car.

Not worried much (yet) about facial recognition. Too expensive, and I can always change things up.

Don't make it easy for them. :)

heavenlyboy34
07-16-2013, 12:33 PM
Stories like the OP are why I will always use a "dumb" phone. :cool:

DamianTV
07-16-2013, 02:09 PM
Facial recognition, you are in the system you cannot escape.

Hats, Sunglasses, and Unbalanced Makeup do wonders.


Not on the systems i worked. It wasn't a facial recognition system, just a movement tracker.
Jc penny if anyone is wondering.

It will be Facial Recognition soon enough. Or worse, RFID Implant. Guaranteed, eventually.

heavenlyboy34
07-16-2013, 02:23 PM
Wow. Free country. :rolleyes:

QuickZ06
07-16-2013, 02:27 PM
Hats, Sunglasses, and Unbalanced Makeup do wonders.



It will be Facial Recognition soon enough. Or worse, RFID Implant. Guaranteed, eventually.

Thing is you cannot wear a hat and sunglasses inside banks. I am sure once facial recognition is more widely used it will carry over to other stores and what not with the same rules as well, you know for safety..... The makeup, well idk about that haha.

DamianTV
07-16-2013, 02:37 PM
Thing is you cannot wear a hat and sunglasses inside banks. I am sure once facial recognition is more widely used it will carry over to other stores and what not with the same rules as well, you know for safety..... The makeup, well idk about that haha.

I usually wear hats and sunglasses into banks. I suppose its only a matter of time before I get shot and / or tazered to death by an overzealous rent a cop.

CPUd
07-16-2013, 02:37 PM
A business has a right to analyze its in-store customer activity to increase profits and mitigate risk (shoplifting/vandalism). It also 'should' have a right to refuse service to anyone.

The customer has the right to do business elsewhere.

Casinos use facial-recognition to refuse service to people who are either really good at gambling, or otherwise known to cause a loss.

QuickZ06
07-16-2013, 02:40 PM
I usually wear hats and sunglasses into banks. I suppose its only a matter of time before I get shot and / or tazered to death by an overzealous rent a cop.

Stay safe out there partner.

Zippyjuan
07-16-2013, 06:33 PM
They can use visual observation or video cams to achieve the same effect. Businesses have always sought to learn how to get customers to buy more stuff from them.

DamianTV
07-16-2013, 07:26 PM
They can use visual observation or video cams to achieve the same effect. Businesses have always sought to learn how to get customers to buy more stuff from them.

Hypothetical.

Lets take it a step further. Lets say you own a Mom and Pop Convenience Store. Lets say you also sell Coca Cola in your store. Lets say also that Coca Cola has established a Tracking System so if a person that has purchased Coca Cola at ANY store that also uses its Tracking System, does that give Coca Cola the Right to track you in EVERY store without the person who is being tracked having the knowledge that they are being tracked? And aside from just not buying Coca Cola, imagine that it is EVERY PRODUCT and EVERY SERVICE in EVERY STORE.

Do we the People just not have the Right to NOT BE TRACKED? I would imagine the People would say NO emphatically, and that these fucking Mega Corporatiosn will demand YES. And Govt is going to go with who ever gives them the most money, the Corporations.

---

The REAL problems start occuring when all the notes taken by tracking are compared. Then the consumer can be charged and fined and penalized out of existence without being provided ANY product or service.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6OhlQGaUduw

I<3Liberty
07-16-2013, 07:27 PM
The creepy part is the fact that they did not inform customers. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this if they put some sort of sign up or something. A lot of the boutiques and stores I shop at will have a sign that reads something like "Smile! :) You're on camera." This is really useful for preventing shoplifting, as well as identifying shop lifters. Even some of the small "mom and pop" local stores will do this because they simply cannot watch every customer in the store.

Zippyjuan
07-16-2013, 07:32 PM
The creepy part is the fact that they did not inform customers. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this if they put some sort of sign up or something. A lot of the boutiques and stores I shop at will have a sign that reads something like "Smile! :) You're on camera." This is really useful for preventing shoplifting, as well as identifying shop lifters. Even some of the small "mom and pop" local stores will do this because they simply cannot watch every customer in the store.

Like this?


But when Nordstrom posted a sign telling customers it was tracking them, shoppers were unnerved.
“We did hear some complaints,” said Tara Darrow, a spokeswoman for the store. Nordstrom ended the experiment in May, she said, in part because of the comments.

I<3Liberty
07-16-2013, 07:56 PM
Like this?
Yes, later on they did post a sign, but I meant it should have been up from the beginning of the experiment. Customers should always be informed when their privacy is violated. I wouldn't have minded. I actually feel like these kinds of experiments are a waste of time because the important things you'd need to know about your customers can be gathered with far less trouble.

I worked at a small boutique and we gathered the most useful information just by looking at the leftover inventory. If you consistency have a certain size leftover -- purchase less of it. If you constantly have customer requesting a size 7 shoe or XS jacket -- you order more of it for the next season. Hiring a consultant or conducting a somewhat creepy over-the-top experiment isn't really necessary.

Zippyjuan
07-16-2013, 08:09 PM
From a Forbes article on it:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/petercohan/2013/05/09/how-nordstrom-and-home-depot-use-wifi-to-spy-on-shoppers/


Nordstrom has been doing this since October 2012 and it posts signs at store entrances notifying consumers that they can opt out by turning off their phones. At another chain, Home Depot HD -0.22% spokesman Stephen Holmes says, “We once tested [Euclid] in a handful of stores but no longer use it.”

(Nordstrom has since stopped the program).

For a boutique, tracking inventory is usually adequate. Larger stores like to kwow who is buying what and why. They want to tailor their store layouts and inventory in advance to try to impact people's behavior- not to respond afterwards to what sold. That is why the grocery store doesn't have basics like bread and milk in the front of the store- you must walk past other things on your way to the back of the store so you are tempted to buy something else. Department stores put men's clothing in the back. Why? Women buy a lot of men's clothing for them and will pass all the women's clothing displays on the way back and hopefully see something they like. No aisles run all the way through the store so you have to walk around things (and again see more stuff- especially during holidays).

Casinos put bright, noisy displays just inside the door and once inside, they hide the doorways with displays or machines so they are harder to find. Dim lights and no clocks so you have no sense of time. All of that is planned out- not just how many coins went into the slots. This is just another level of sophistication intended to separate you from your money. Ikea also makes it hard to find your way out and their stores are set up so you basically have to walk all the way through the whole thing. If people walk by a display, why? Change it. If they spend more time in one place, put more emphasis on that and maybe more of those types of displays.

DamianTV
07-16-2013, 08:20 PM
So, uh, companies have more Rights than the People? After all, companies are Groups of People!

/sarcasm

mad cow
07-16-2013, 08:50 PM
Thing is you cannot wear a hat and sunglasses inside banks. I am sure once facial recognition is more widely used it will carry over to other stores and what not with the same rules as well, you know for safety..... The makeup, well idk about that haha.

That must be a State law.I was in two banks today wearing a hat while transferring some funds.I wear a hat in banks all the time.

I<3Liberty
07-16-2013, 09:04 PM
From a Forbes article on it:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/petercohan/2013/05/09/how-nordstrom-and-home-depot-use-wifi-to-spy-on-shoppers/



(Nordstrom has since stopped the program).

For a boutique, tracking inventory is usually adequate. Larger stores like to kwow who is buying what and why. They want to tailor their store layouts and inventory in advance to try to impact people's behavior- not to respond afterwards to what sold. That is why the grocery store doesn't have basics like bread and milk in the front of the store- you must walk past other things on your way to the back of the store so you are tempted to buy something else. Department stores put men's clothing in the back. Why? Women buy a lot of men's clothing for them and will pass all the women's clothing displays on the way back and hopefully see something they like. No aisles run all the way through the store so you have to walk around things (and again see more stuff- especially during holidays).

Casinos put bright, noisy displays just inside the door and once inside, they hide the doorways with displays or machines so they are harder to find. Dim lights and no clocks so you have no sense of time. All of that is planned out- not just how many coins went into the slots. This is just another level of sophistication intended to separate you from your money. Ikea also makes it hard to find your way out and their stores are set up so you basically have to walk all the way through the whole thing. If people walk by a display, why? Change it. If they spend more time in one place, put more emphasis on that and maybe more of those types of displays.

No one found out those things by tracking people's movement through the store via cell phones -- there's other more efficient and less expensive ways of going about it. I'm not saying inventory should be their only source, but it is crucial. One large store had an entire rack of the most hideous boyfriend-cut neon sweatpants with juvenile decor. It does not matter how you display them or what rack you put them on, no one will buy them (unless they're completely clueless about how to dress themselves.) This is why I hate some of the larger stores (especially Kohl's) :rolleyes: because they're not run by people that know fashion and some of the things they sell are so pathetic I just want to say "This store is a complete joke!" Yet again, I'm a self-proclaimed hardcore fashionista, so it might be different for peeps that don't fit this category (like most guys and little kids.)

CPUd
07-16-2013, 09:11 PM
http://i.imgur.com/nJiKMMF.jpg

oyarde
07-16-2013, 10:46 PM
That must be a State law.I was in two banks today wearing a hat while transferring some funds.I wear a hat in banks all the time.

Actually , I think it is individual banks, where I bank ,there was a sign on a door on one branch ( now closed ) , the other branches in the area did not have the sign.The three I still use on occasion still do not .

oyarde
07-16-2013, 10:48 PM
I never wear a hat , so if it is snowing I sometimes use a hood and rarely remove it, and always wear sunglasses and sometimes push them up on my forehead , no person has ever said anything to me , but they all know who I am.

oyarde
07-16-2013, 10:52 PM
When you shop at places like I do , probably do not have to worry about anyone tracking you , the local butcher , coin shop ,jewelry store, second hand store, pawn shop, scrap yard etc

Anti Federalist
07-16-2013, 10:53 PM
Hats, Sunglasses, and Unbalanced Makeup do wonders.

Which marks you as a BLANK, and even more likely to get a SWAT raid.


It will be Facial Recognition soon enough. Or worse, RFID Implant. Guaranteed, eventually.

Both.

"Oh but technology is neutral..."

Fuck that.

Smash these fucking machines.

And yes, I am well aware of the irony of using technology to decry it, so don't bother pointing that out.

oyarde
07-16-2013, 10:53 PM
I dunno what a Nordtrams is , but I have never been in one, :)

KEEF
07-17-2013, 06:06 AM
Hats, Sunglasses, and Unbalanced Makeup do wonders.



It will be Facial Recognition soon enough. Or worse, RFID Implant. Guaranteed, eventually.

Reminds me of this commercial...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fuijhUn0pk