About Snowden...

[tangent4ronpaul]

not really sure what to think of the guy.

He did betray his secrecy agreements. NOT COOL!

Some good things might be going on in the world because of it? Not sure yet.

Was there an overstep by the gvmt? - yes.

I always root for the underdog, so I am kinda rooting for him, despite that what he did is unforgivable.

I don't know...

-t

[torchbearer]

government secrecy, not cool.
lying to congress, not cool.

[pcosmar]

not really sure what to think of the guy.

He did betray his secrecy agreements. NOT COOL!

Some good things might be going on in the world because of it? Not sure yet.

Was there an overstep by the gvmt? - yes.

I always root for the underdog, so I am kinda rooting for him, despite that what he did is unforgivable.

I don't know...

-t

Breaking an agreement due to blatant criminal activity is wholly acceptable in my book.

[GregSarnowski]

He did a great and noble thing. At the very least now this will be taken up by the courts. No more ridiculous technicality that no one can sue because no one can prove they're being spied on. Thanks to Snowden the feds were forced to admit it and the ACLU has filed suit.

Still, I expect the government lawyers on the Supreme Court to side with the government, but we'll see.

Oh, and I don't buy for a second that "terrorists", to the extent that they actually exist and have any kind of sophistication, are communicating their plans on the open internet. Especially not with such easy access to TOR or VPNs for anyone who has 15 minutes to read up on it.

This is about building a massive database on ordinary Americans.

Remember last year when then CIA chief Patreaus said "We'll spy on you through your dishwasher."

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/03/petraeus-tv-remote/

He wasn't joking around. This all ties into PRISM.

[FindLiberty]

+100%
Breaking an agreement due to blatant criminal activity is wholly acceptable in my book.

[dannno]

not really sure what to think of the guy.

He did betray his secrecy agreements. NOT COOL!

Some good things might be going on in the world because of it? Not sure yet.

Was there an overstep by the gvmt? - yes.

I always root for the underdog, so I am kinda rooting for him, despite that what he did is unforgivable.

I don't know...

-t

If the government gave me proof that 9/11 was an inside job, but I had to sign an agreement that I wouldn't say anything about it, what should I do?

[Christian Liberty]

Break the agreement.

[qh4dotcom]

not really sure what to think of the guy.

He did betray his secrecy agreements. NOT COOL!

Some good things might be going on in the world because of it? Not sure yet.

Was there an overstep by the gvmt? - yes.

I always root for the underdog, so I am kinda rooting for him, despite that what he did is unforgivable.

I don't know...

-t

It's a no-brainer to me...he's a hero...plus he donated money to Ron Paul so he is one of us

According to Obama and his whistleblower protection policy on his own website change.gov...Snowden is a courageous patriot with public integrity


Protect Whistleblowers: Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process.
http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/

[amy31416]

He broke an agreement to keep it secret that the gov't was spying on all US citizens, which (the US gov't) is breaking an agreement to the oath that most of these DB's took to uphold the fucking Constitution.

Break a contract with a private employer or break an oath to the US' laws...which is the primary offense? I can't cover up a murder and get away with it by showing that the gravedigger signed a contract to keep it secret after he blabs on me.

WTH?

[evilfunnystuff]

It is not immoral to expose secret systematic disregard of the "Supreme Law of the Land"

[surf]

hero. one of us.

to quote some dude from twitter "US gov claiming the revelation of spying but not the actual spying hurting global relations...do they think people are stupid?"

this needed to be done.

[rp08orbust]

All governments are in a state of aggressive war against their subjects, and acts of violence against the state such as those committed by Edward Snowden (breaking secrecy agreements) can be excused as self-defense.

[RickyJ]

not really sure what to think of the guy.

He did betray his secrecy agreements. NOT COOL!

Some good things might be going on in the world because of it? Not sure yet.

Was there an overstep by the gvmt? - yes.

I always root for the underdog, so I am kinda rooting for him, despite that what he did is unforgivable.

I don't know...

-t

He and no one else has a right to keep such massive illegal activity to themselves just because of some "secrecy agreement." You don't sell your soul and morals away because of such an agreement! If he would have kept quiet and kept doing his job then he would have been guilty as well of violating the Constitution. The NSA will not get away with this. Someday, somehow, they will pay for their crimes against the people of the United States of America. All traitors to this nation will pay someday.

[paulbot24]

Is the Constitution the supreme law of the land or is it not? If you were in the military, and you witnessed systemic corruption and blatant abuse of power by your sergeants, would you risk a court martial by breaking the chain-of-command and reporting it to your commanding officer? If you value your oath to the Constitution, which was one of the first things you did while being processed for enlisted duty, it is not really your decision, it is your duty to the American people. That is what sets people like Sibel Edmonds, Manning, and Snowden apart. They do not brag or speak loudly about what they decided to do, they speak quietly with conviction, about what they knew they must do.

[enhanced_deficit]

Neecons' plant violating his oath to defend the Constitution is NOT COOL !

[surf]

the "what he did is unforgivable" part of your post is confusing to me. I see three outcome scenarios from this - the first is that the US experiences backlash in the form of trade barriers and the like with some countries - and like Cubans and auto parts or Iraqis and medicine, we'll have to ration coffee and bananas and oil and it will only hurt the citizens, not the ruling elite. the positive aspect of this is that it may cause America to realize empire rule isn't all it's cracked up to be. the second scenario involves more hate and disgust at America in general - even the Canadian won't stand next to Barry in the dignitary group photo. potential physical and cyber terror. not much good for liberty here, at least for a while. Third scenario - indignant posturing by all. now move along.

[Carlybee]

As to the "secrecy agreement". That's like saying if you work for McDonald's and your boss is secretly videotaping women going to the bathroom you shouldn't say anything out of loyalty to the company. A crime is a crime.

[puppetmaster]

not really sure what to think of the guy.

He did betray his secrecy agreements. NOT COOL!

Some good things might be going on in the world because of it? Not sure yet.

Was there an overstep by the gvmt? - yes.

I always root for the underdog, so I am kinda rooting for him, despite that what he did is unforgivable.

I don't know...

-t

He is backing the Constitution.. WAY COOL. this trumps your little bull shit secrecy agreement
Your post comes close to a neg rep IMO.

[kcchiefs6465]

I'd actually prefer most people working at "official positions" (WETF that Orwellian phrase means, anyways) have consciences. A spine is also a good trait.

Riddle me this; Someone arbitrarily decides your money is now theirs, uses it to commit immoral acts in your name, would you not wish to know about it?

[Mani]

not really sure what to think of the guy.

He did betray his secrecy agreements. NOT COOL!

Some good things might be going on in the world because of it? Not sure yet.

Was there an overstep by the gvmt? - yes.

I always root for the underdog, so I am kinda rooting for him, despite that what he did is unforgivable.

I don't know...

-t

Look at it this way.


Someone HAD to be BETRAYED.

The Government betrayed the American People, and were doing things completely AGAINST the constitution.

If he stays silent, he stays loyal to the government and his contract/agreement.

If he speaks up, he's betraying the contract/agreement, but he's LOYAL to the CONSTITUTION and to the AMERICAN PEOPLE.



He can't be both, he has to choose, GOVERNMENT or THE PEOPLE. In his situation, it is ACTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE to be LOYAL to both.

He was loyal to the constitution and to the people, NOT the tyrannical government and all their private contracts. He took the MORAL HIGH road, and risked everything he had.

That's why people call him a HERO. He's ready to sacrifice himself for the GOOD of the PEOPLE and FIGHT for the CONSTITUTION and for the WHAT the founding FATHERS BELIEVED IN.



Now the mouthpieces are call him a TRAITOR. But realize he's only a traitor to the over zealous elitist government bastards drunk with power. Unfortunately, too many of the public hear the message, "Traitor, traitor, traitor." and that MANTRA begins to spread.

Early in the campaign after the leaks, I saw 90% pro comments over Snowden. Now it's 50/50. The media propaganda machine does work and it's confusing people, into forgetting, the GOVERNMENT, believes the people are the ADVERSARY. THE CITIZENS are the adversary. The CITIZENS don't DESERVE privacy.

He took the side of the people, that's no traitor.

[TruckinMike]

Did someone hi-jack Tangent's Account?

[Scrapmo]

A-He took an Oath to up hold the Constitution.
B-He took an Oath to maintain NSA secrets.

When A and B are the Antithesis of one another one must choose which Oath to uphold.

He choose A.

[amy31416]

Did someone hi-jack Tangent's Account?

I honestly wondered the same.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Did someone hi-jack Tangent's Account?


I honestly wondered the same.

Lets just leave it at that I am very torn on the issue, I have a "interesting" history and betraying my "country" is not part of it.

At the same time, the phrase: "Love your country but fear your government", comes to mind.

-t

[better-dead-than-fed]

not really sure what to think of the guy.

He did betray his secrecy agreements. NOT COOL!

Some good things might be going on in the world because of it? Not sure yet.

Was there an overstep by the gvmt? - yes.

I always root for the underdog, so I am kinda rooting for him, despite that what he did is unforgivable.

I don't know...

-t

Any action against America seems legit at this point.

[Carlybee]

Lets just leave it at that I am very torn on the issue, I have a "interesting" history and betraying my "country" is not part of it.

At the same time, the phrase: "Love your country but fear your government", comes to mind.

-t

Better to betray the people who pay his salary? That would be the taxpayers.

[tod evans]

Lets just leave it at that I am very torn on the issue, I have a "interesting" history and betraying my "country" is not part of it.

At the same time, the phrase: "Love your country but fear your government", comes to mind.

-t

"My country" doesn't consist of the government that has been running her into the ground for decades.

[angelatc]

not really sure what to think of the guy.

He did betray his secrecy agreements. NOT COOL!

Some good things might be going on in the world because of it? Not sure yet.

Was there an overstep by the gvmt? - yes.

I always root for the underdog, so I am kinda rooting for him, despite that what he did is unforgivable.

I don't know...

-t

About Revere....

not really sure what to think of the guy.

He did betray his secrecy agreements. NOT COOL!

Some good things might be going on in the world because of it? Not sure yet.

Was there an overstep by the gvmt? - yes.

I always root for the underdog, so I am kinda rooting for him, despite that what he did is unforgivable.

I don't know...

[brushfire]

NOT COOL? What are you talking about? So is Truth really Treason, in your eyes?

The man is a hero (period). DO NOT let the f'n george snuffaluffagus types tell you otherwise - we owe a huge debt of gratitude to Snowden. I look forward to more leaks, and more whistle-blowers. Assange/Manning > Snowden > ?? Each time the process should get better.

So Snowden's value doesnt end at the leak, per se. He is also helping to set forth a sunshine process. The big picture here is what happens to the leakers. The easier and more secure the process, the more treasonous heroes we can expect from this empire of lies.

...someone else, please feel free to post the many whistle blowers before, including Ellsberg. God bless them all.

[Tod]

It is so strange.....a facebook "friend" called Snowden a coward yesterday because he didn't go through the chain of command to blow the whistle. How on earth would that do ANY good, when the chain of command is the guilty party? He feels the same about Manning.

I can only guess that he is one of these people who's patriotism is centered on the government, although he claims he was a Ron Paul supporter.

[Carlybee]

There are no safeguards for the people in the operations of shadow agencies. And this particular one operates under the DoD....more proof the govt is controlled by the MIC. We ARE an Orwellian cautionary tale.

[angelatc]

It is so strange.....a facebook "friend" called Snowden a coward yesterday because he didn't go through the chain of command to blow the whistle. How on earth would that do ANY good, when the chain of command is the guilty party? He feels the same about Manning.

I can only guess that he is one of these people who's patriotism is centered on the government, although he claims he was a Ron Paul supporter.


Did you see daniel ellsburg address that sentiment in the WaPo a day or two ago? He compared Snowden with himself, and said although he had turned himself in, things were much different today and he supported Snowden's decision.

Here's the link if you missed it - it's a really good read; http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html

[Tod]

Did you see daniel ellsburg address that sentiment in the WaPo a day or two ago? He compared Snowden with himself, and said although he had turned himself in, things were much different today and he supported Snowden's decision.

Here's the link if you missed it - it's a really good read; http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html

No, I hadn't seen it. Thanks!

[HOLLYWOOD]

Jay Rosen has good points that have come out of this... most importantly, you can see how the New World Order was being crafted by the US & Allies plus the complicity of Fascist Corporations & Media: http://pressthink.org/2013/07/the-snowden-effect-definition-and-examples/


The Snowden Effect: definition and examples

It’s about what he set in motion by taking the action he did.

The Snowden effect, a definition:
Direct and indirect gains in public knowledge from the cascade of events and further reporting that followed Edward Snowden’s leaks of classified information about the surveillance state in the U.S.

Meaning: there’s what Snowden himself revealed by releasing secrets and talking to the press. But beyond this, there is what he set in motion (https://pressfreedomfoundation.org/blog/2013/06/nsa-leaks-are-forcing-more-transparency-both-companies-and-government) by taking that action. Congress and other governments begin talking in public about things they had previously kept hidden. Companies have to explain some of their dealings with the state. Journalists who were not a party to the transaction with Snowden start digging and adding background. Debates spring to life that had been necessary but missing before the leaks. The result is that we know much more about the surveillance state than we did before. Some of the opacity around it lifts. This is the Snowden effect.
It is good for public knowledge. And public knowledge is supposed to be what a free press and open debate are all about. (First use of the term that I can find is by Esquire’s Charles Pierce here (http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/The_Snowden_Revelations).)
Notes, links and examples: (updated several times after July 5)

1. As reported (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/world/europe/france-too-is-collecting-data-newspaper-reveals.html?hp&pagewanted=all&_r=0) on July 4:
Days after President François Hollande sternly told the United States to stop spying on its allies, the newspaper Le Monde disclosed on Thursday that France has its own large program of data collection, which sweeps up nearly all the data transmissions, including telephone calls, e-mails and social media activity, that come in and out of France. (Le Monde (http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2013/07/04/revelations-on-the-french-big-brother_3442665_3224.html).)

So the Snowden effect is international. Canada (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/data-collection-program-got-green-light-from-mackay-in-2011/article12444909/), for example. Or Brazil (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/L/LT_NSA_SURVEILLANCE_BRAZIL?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT).

2. On July 3, Reuters reported (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/03/us-usa-security-siliconvalley-idUSBRE96214I20130703) on the “long history of close cooperation between technology companies and the intelligence community.”
Former U.S. officials and intelligence sources say the collaboration between the tech industry and spy agencies is both broader and deeper than most people realize, dating back to the formative years of Silicon Valley itself.

A similar story (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/technology/silicon-valley-and-spy-agency-bound-by-strengthening-web.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) ran in the New York Times on June 19. It told of “the increasingly deep connections between Silicon Valley and the [NSA] and the degree to which they are now in the same business.”

3. In a superb story by four reporters on June 15, the Associated Press expanded the frame (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/secret-prism-success-even-bigger-data-seizure):
The revelation of Prism this month by the Washington Post and Guardian newspapers has touched off the latest round in a decade-long debate over what limits to impose on government eavesdropping, which the Obama administration says is essential to keep the nation safe.
But interviews with more than a dozen current and former government and technology officials and outside experts show that, while Prism has attracted the recent attention, the program actually is a relatively small part of a much more expansive and intrusive eavesdropping effort.


4. Expanding the frame in a different way, the McClatchy Washington bureau reported (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/20/194513/obamas-crackdown-views-leaks-as.html#.UdbgrGS9Kc0#storylink=cpy) on the Obama Administration’s extremely aggressive crackdown on leaks: (June 20)
President Barack Obama’s unprecedented initiative, known as the Insider Threat Program, is sweeping in its reach. It has received scant public attention even though it extends beyond the U.S. national security bureaucracies to most federal departments and agencies nationwide.

“This has gotten scant public attention; let’s remedy that.” So goes the Snowden effect.

5. On June 15 Bloomberg reported (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-14/u-s-agencies-said-to-swap-data-with-thousands-of-firms.html) that “thousands of technology, finance and manufacturing companies are working closely with U.S. national security agencies, providing sensitive information and in return receiving benefits that include access to classified intelligence.”
These programs, whose participants are known as trusted partners, extend far beyond what was revealed by Edward Snowden, a computer technician who did work for the National Security Agency.


6. Two days ago, a report (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/lawmakers-question-white-house-account-of-an-internet-surveillance-program.html?ref=politics&pagewanted=all) in the New York Times explained how Senators Ron Wyden and Mark Udall are “trying to force intelligence officials to provide answers for the public record” about matters already familiar to them (http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-udall-statement-on-the-disclosure-of-bulk-email-records-collection-program) from secret briefings given to Congress. The key phrase is “answers for the public record.” That is the core of the Snowden effect.

7. On June 25, the National Security Agency had to take down (http://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2013/06/nsa-takes-surveillance-fact-sheets-off-website-167073.html) two fact sheets it had posted online after Wyden and Udall complained that they contained misinformation. The documents were themselves an example of the Snowden effect, as Politico reported (http://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2013/06/nsa-takes-surveillance-fact-sheets-off-website-167073.html):
The documents, still available here (http://www.scribd.com/doc/149791922/National-Security-Agency-Section-702-of-FISA-and-Section-215-of-PATRIOT-Act-Fact-Sheets), were published in the wake of revelations about the extent of the NSA’s surveillance programs. They sought to highlight the safeguards the NSA uses to make sure American communications aren’t caught up in its surveillance — or if they are, what the NSA does to remove identifying information about U.S. citizens.

In other words, the NSA – often called the most secretive agency in the government – felt it had to explain itself. This is good for public knowledge. Two U.S. Senators then fact checked the NSA, which is even better.

8. Jack Shafer of Reuters predicted the Snowden effect in his June 8 colum (http://blogs.reuters.com/jackshafer/2013/06/08/the-spy-who-came-in-for-your-soul/)n. “This will now fuel new cycles of reporting, leaks and scoops — and another, and another — as new sources are cultivated and reportorial scraps gathering mold in journalists’ notebooks gain new relevance and help break stories.” He was right.

9. Did you know that the United States Postal Service “computers photograph the exterior of every piece of paper mail that is processed in the United States — about 160 billion pieces last year?” I did not. The New York Times reported (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mail.html?pagewanted=all) on it July 3rd. As Ethan Zuckerman notes (http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2013/07/03/me-and-my-metadata-thoughts-on-online-surveillance/), the Smoking Gun website had the story (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/woman-arrested-for-obama-bloomberg-ricin-letters-687435) on June 7 but few saw it. The Snowden effect works like that. It widens the circle of people who know, even if the knowledge had been available before.

10. On the front page of the New York Times, Scott Shane reported (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/us/in-secret-court-vastly-broadens-powers-of-nsa.html?hpw&pagewanted=all&_r=0) on a kind a “parallel Supreme Court,” FISA, making new and consequential law in secret. This brought a discussion (http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/Today_In_Snowdenland?src=rss) that had taken place on legal blogs to a much wider public. The Wall Street Journal followed up the next day with more details (http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424127887323873904578571893758853344-lMyQjAxMTAzMDAwNzEwNDcyWj.html).

A final note: The Snowden effect is far more important than the Snowdon saga, meaning: the story of what happens to him as the United States pursues his capture and arrest, plus what comes out about his background and motivations. But I would not call his personal story a “distraction (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dana-milbank-snowden-is-undermining-his-cause-in-the-united-states/2013/07/02/91a912f0-e34f-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_print.html)” from the real story. That’s not right (http://blogs.aljazeera.com/blog/americas/snowden-more-distraction-traitor#). Who he is, what kind of access he had, why he did what he did, and even the arguments about whether he’s a disloyal creep or a profile in courage are inescapably part of the larger story and the public debate it has triggered. (Read Matt Cooper of National Journal on this issue (http://www.nationaljournal.com/nationalsecurity/why-edward-snowden-s-motives-matter-20130624).) You can’t wish for more public attention to the surveillance state and then scoff at one of the means by which people come to the larger story, which is his story. But I repeat what I said: the Snowden effect is ultimately more important than the Snowdon saga. http://laurenmichell.com/pressthink/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/glasses.png

Related posts on the NSA story:
* Politics: some / Politics: none. Two ways to excel in political journalism. Neither dominates. (http://pressthink.org/2013/06/politics-some-politics-none-two-ways-to-excel-in-political-journalism-neither-dominates/) (June 13)
* David Gregory tries to read Glenn Greenwald and The Guardian out of the journalism club (http://pressthink.org/2013/06/david-gregory-tries-to-read-glenn-greenwald-and-the-guardian-out-of-the-journalism-club/) (June 24.)

July 8: The Snowden effect, and this post, was chewed over on MSNBC: Debating the Snowden Effect (http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/07/08/debating-the-snowden-effect/).

[puppetmaster]

Lets just leave it at that I am very torn on the issue, I have a "interesting" history and betraying my "country" is not part of it.

At the same time, the phrase: "Love your country but fear your government", comes to mind.

-t


He stood up for his country by not betraying the constitution....should not even rub you wrong at all. The fact that the government is betraying every soldier that has EVER fought for our liberty should bother you.